Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[JoanArc]

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/tamra-judge-speaks-out-supporting-josh-duggar/

 

 

Tamra Judge is speaking out in support of alleged child molester Josh Duggar, and fans are furious! The Real Housewives Of Orange County star posted on Facebook that she had “mixed emotions” about Josh Duggar, citing his age at the time of the alleged incident. “I don’t know the whole story and I know the press likes to blow things up,” she said in a comment. “My question is…did someone do this to him? Is he a victim as well? Just a thought…”

FU Tamra. I'd her to see 'the picture'.

[JenCarroll]

Over at http://www.tlc.com/, the Duggars are no longer featured on the home page. But I see something that makes me think TLC may dump the Duggars even if 19K&C is their top-rated show: The Willis Family. 

 

I'm watching the 1st episode of the Willis Family on Demand right now. Twelve kids, home schooled, living in a rustic looking house in the country in Tennessee. But OMG - none of the freak factor of the Duggars!! These people are outgoing, articulate, talented, loving, good-natured - and I think they are going to be TLC's next hot thing. I know this is just based on one episode, but so far? A breath of fresh air. 

 

I hope TLC dumps the Duggars for good. I bet a bunch of Duggar viewers will happily watch the Willises. The dedicated fundie leg humpers can always go see the Duggars at one of their many event appearances.

You know, I watched a couple of episodes too and they are, they really are talented, hard-working, and articulate -- and I was utterly bored. They lack that underlying "what the hell is wrong with these people" edge, and consequently I'm just not getting the "freak show" vibe that a lot of TLC programming seems to succeed with.

[Iguessnot]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/anna-duggar-and-the-silencing-power-of-forgiveness.html

 

Here is something Josh said when he was courting Anna. Okay so if I had read this at the time, I would have just assumed that he felt some girls up from his church group, as that is certainly how it sounds.  This is what is so sick about the Duggar's beliefs.  It seems quite clear from this statement that Josh considers molesting his sister as she sleeps as the same level of wicked as having a consensual make out session with someone you're own age.  Both are just "temptations".  The male is tempted and the female is the one doing the tempting.  One of Josh's sisters was a bad girl who tempted him while she was sleeping.  

 

I dunno, that is the idea I am getting from what he said there.  Somewhere in that whole thing is the implication of an evil temptress.  If he said that publicly just a couple of years after the ordeal, then I cannot imagine how horrible his victims must have felt at that moment.   

Just because a male is tempted does not necessarily mean a female is a temptress. Hidden cameras and 2 way mirrors in bathrooms & bedrooms and barging in on sleeping females do not make the victims temptresses. I don't know what tempted Josh, but his outlet seems to have included his sisters.

 

 

I don't know why it took so long but it finally came to me why I am so against placing even the majority of the blame on JB, Michelle, or the kids' "sexually repressed" (or whatever you want to call it) upbringing.  I think their upbringing has been horrible and the "parents" did not do anywhere near enough to protect their daughters or other girls in their home, but I have to place the blame squarely on Josh.  Why?  Because otherwise I have to believe that all the other boys in that household who are/will be/have been raised the same way have also been raised to become incestuous child molesters, or that it's both expected and excused that they'll molest the girls. Please note I'm not speculating that other boys or girls are involved, just saying that I think there is something more wrong with Josh and how he treated his sisters beyond just his upbringing.

I doesn't make sense to claim his obscure home life was the sole cause of his molestation when molestation occurs even in our "normal" sexually open society.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Bella
misattributed quote, tried to fix

[Hpmec]

The Willis Family is very prominently featured on the TLC homepage. Have a feeling after attorneys are consulted and contracts reviewed, it's going to be bye bye Duggars, hello Willises. At this point the Duggars are probably hanging on by a thread with the network, not only because of Josh, but because of the way Michelle and Boob mishandled the situation, and the fact that 4 of the daughters were victims. TLC has put on some sketchy programming, but a family in which incest has occurred is just too much right now. Perhaps in a year they'll do an update special on Jill, Jessa, and Josiah (if his courtship hasn't imploded by then), but I think they'll want to lie low for now. Would be very surprised if they aired the next season given all the negative publicity.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Hpmec

[bluebonnet]

I wish TLC would be edgy and groundbreaking and feature, I don't know, a typical American family.   Or maybe a group of typical families.  Would love to see a mom screaming for the kids to hurry the hell up with brushing their teeth and panicking because she can't find her shoe for her very important meeting which she'll be late for because the carpool canceled and she has to sign a note from her daughter's teacher admonishing her for packing Oreo's in her lunch and she's wondering if just letting them walk to school will result in CPS being called.  I mean, I'd watch that.  

[3 is enough]

I am pretty sure that they were in the midst of filming the next season when all this went down.  Jessa posted a picture on instagram earlier this week with "Happy Birthday Ben" banners on the wall and there were cameras set up.  TLC scrapped the entire season of Honey Boo Boo it had already filmed, so they may do the same with the Duggars.

 

I can see Josh making the rounds of fundie churches giving his "testimony" and begging for love offerings.  But there is a finite number of these congregations, many of them may not want him, and the offerings will dry up pretty quickly, especially when he becomes old news.  He can't come back telling the same story every 6 months and hope to keep getting financed.  Pretty sure he will cave and do a tell-all book or an interview with the likes of Diane Sawyer.  But he can't wait too long because people are going to forget all about him when the next scandal comes along, especially if the show is permanently cancelled.  The public has a very short memory.

 

John Oliver is off this week.  Too bad. But then again the story broke on Thursday, which may have been too late to get a piece ready for Sunday night.

Edited May 24, 2015 by 3 is enough

[WalrusGirl]

What makes sense to me is that a lot of new people have infiltrated the family with the 2 new marriages and like you, I do think its very likely either Jill or Jessa did confide in their new in laws/family.

I think it's almost certainly someone from outside the family/in-laws. Neither Jill nor Jessa (nor JD with his police connections, as some have speculated) would have intentionally outed this to the media without all of the older girls being in agreement, and even in normal, non-fundie society, the odds of all five young woman being cool with putting that focus and speculation on themselves, even in order to bring down their abuser, are pretty low. And none of my close friends who were molested or raped at similar ages by adults close to their family ever told their in-laws. (Husbands, yes.) Not to say it never happens, but unless you're incredibly close to your SIL or MIL, and/or know they've gone through something similar, that's just not something most people - even in typical culture - really need their in-laws to know.

That said, I sincerely hope (and do tend to think) that both sets of in-laws will support their DILs, or however they want to handle this - in a cynical sense (since you never know with people), it's good that Jill already had a baby and Jessa's already pregnant, since their fundie-trending in-laws now have practical reasons to support the women mothering their grandchildren. (ICK to Guinn's Huckabee repost, though people screw up what's actually supportive in hard situations all.the.time.)

Here's where I'm torn about JB&M's actions - potentially criminally insufficient (my opinion) as it was, it's not at all unusual, or a direct result of their extremism. Doing nothing when one of the victims first told him in March 2002: entirely typical. Unfortunately that's what usually happens with intrafamily sexual abuse, even in normal families, even if the perpetrator is an adult and not also their own child. (Not believing the victim or just utterly failing via some combination of denial and being at a total loss.) When Josh admitted it to them in July 2002: merely punishing him is, well, more than what frequently happens. (!) In March 2003, when he confesses again: going to their church for advice, telling other families and anyone in law enforcement (even someone JB knew), and sending the minor perpetrator out of the house for several months and, again, punishing him at all - well, that's really quite a bit more than parents in intrafamily sexual abuse situations often do. As were their family set-ups and rules to protect the kids going forward, which always seemed either absurd (until three days ago) or indicative of a reaction to something like this. You'd be shocked at how many people you know and love would react in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.

I buy that deeply religious people sincerely believe they're doing the right thing when they follow their church leaders' advice that doesn't include official (legal or medical) channels; that doesn't mean it isn't legally neglectful or worse, and I'm glad DCFS investigated what they could (and I've seen references, in the long-ago leaks, to the family having to follow up regularly, which is the best the state could do with what they had and the timeline).

I don't even have a problem with JB seeking legal advice and lawyering his 16-17 (?) year old son up in mid-2006; everyone has a right to counsel, and he was a minor (a young one at the time of the events in question; old enough to know better and have it be terribly concerning, but young enough that parents wouldn't want their kid's life ruined for it if they believed it was over a few years ago) who shouldn't have to realize that himself. (I strongly suspect I'd have still made him go to the interview, possibly with counsel, as part of the overall effort to keep others safe, hold him accountable for his actions, and rehabilitate the offender, depending on what professionals in that area advised. But I'm certain the lawyers JB talked to advised him not to let investigators speak to Josh. That's legally a no brainer. What professionals in the rehabilitation field would recommend, I honestly don't know, and I have a masters in a related field but specialized in the opposite end of the age spectrum.)

I have big problems with how they handled this (after the first they knew in March 2002, that he was allowed in the house (vs Ben's future apartment + the kitchen at mealtimes and family room at Bible/family meeting times; nothing on the second floor), that horribly damaging sexual abuse "education" and their continued constant reference to females being responsible for stirring desire in males (could stay covered without telling the victims it was their fault every single time you said it), etc. But the reality is that, in most cases of family abuse, the victims either never feel comfortable or safe telling an adult, and the adults either don't believe them or do less in terms of punishment for the abuser and supporting the victim. As a society, we generally suck at sexual abuse, and it's notoriously bad in terms of victim support when the abuser is a close family member. I know decent people in real life who handled things in this area significantly worse. If anything good comes from this (going public years later by anyone but the victims, not the abuse itself - edited to clarify), I hope that the media gets past the details and incorporates professionals in the field discussing best practices, because that's hugely lacking background knowledge for so many generally decent people who massively fail - and often never get it.

All that said, I think there's decent odds that, while the older girls aren't close to Josh and don't fully trust or 100% forgive him, at least some of them moved on from this a long time ago (especially if it did stop for good back in mid-2003) and were in a comfortable place personally, coexisting with him, and with their parents. So I hate, for them, that this is public without it being their collective decision. We can't assume that all of them are in a bad place from it now, 12 years later, despite it (hopefully) being the worst event of their lives. (Daggers at Josh during that interview finale, when all of this was likely in the forefront of their minds, don't negate anyone's being fine overall. (There are people who've horribly wronged me (not in this way) who I'm generally fine and can get along with, but I'll snap right back at certain subjects that bring the offense up.)

We're newly outraged and horribly sad for them, but they figured out how to exist with the knowledge and their brother long ago and some are probably fine leaving well enough alone vs having real counseling at this late date. (I'm guessing others could benefit, but we can't assume all want or need it in 2015. They absolutely should have seen a secular-based therapist specializing in pediatric molestation victims in 2002/2003/2006. But let's not also forget that they lived in the rural Bible Belt with possibly no insurance at that time - and mental health coverage has always been lacking anyway - so even if the best effort had been put in, I think it's silly to assume they'd have had access to the counseling they should have had even if JB&M had tried. The best that might have come was a non-specialist telling them it wasn't their fault (huge) and having some extended contact with a mandatory reporter, both of which would have been incredibly valuable.) But the close friend of mine who never had counseling as a teenager has a healthy life and marriage now, and never had any interest in or need to go back to it as an adult. She'd already gotten to an ok place. (Not to say she may never want or need to - sometimes former victims are in a fine place as adults, after therapy or not, until they have children, or their children approach the age at which they were victimized. Then it can be triggering and there's some stuff to work through again. It's not a linear, one-and-done thing where if only you have counseling you'll land in an ok place and that's it.)

I wonder if this criminal history was part of JB's clear opposition to Josh taking a political job, in DC, that would raise his profile? The subsequent increased chance of this eventually coming to light? Even if the records had been officially sealed (which would have been the case had he been correctly charged at the time), sealed records aren't the same as destroyed records, and it sounds like an open secret in their community.

Virtual hugs and support to all who have shared and been through this personally.

Edited May 24, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[cmr2014]

 

You know, I watched a couple of episodes too and they are, they really are talented, hard-working, and articulate -- and I was utterly bored. They lack that underlying "what the hell is wrong with these people" edge, and consequently I'm just not getting the "freak show" vibe that a lot of TLC programming seems to succeed with.

ETA this quote. I wrote this in response to this post, and a half dozen posts appeared before I finished.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I saw the first episode and thought that they were an attractive and articulate group. They are talented and magnetic and the love and affection between the family members radiates off the screen -- and I don't care. It may be a matter of familiarity; the Duggars have been floating around in the periphery of American life for a decade while the Willis family just appeared. I hope that's the case. If the Duggars could get rich off of TLC, the Willis family certainly should, too.

 

I was thinking about Huckabee's statement and I think that the issue revolves around whether you see Josh's actions as a sin or a crime. To Huckabee, I think that there are two issues: the first is a sort of "boys will be boys" thing and he considers that to be a family matter (Huckabee has frothing medieval views about women in general), the other is that Josh committed a "sin" which Huckabee would consider a church matter. A sin has to be confessed and remorse demonstrated, and then it is forgiven. While I think that for most of us on this board, this was a crime (as well as a sin) and is a civil matter as well.

 

It even crossed my mind that JB might have leaked the report (I don't think he did). My thought was that he was getting frustrated with Josh's growing independence, and decided to leak the report, humiliate Josh, and force him to come crawling back home. To him (I think) Josh committed a sin, not a crime, and that sin has been atoned for and forgiven.

Edited May 24, 2015 by cmr2014

[WalrusGirl]

Depending on how things settle (and provided there's no other shoe to drop), I do think that TLC will be able to get away with continuing the show, sans Josh and Anna, after the built-in (possibly extended) hiatus. (Or with Anna and the kids, if she were to leave and thus the money didn't benefit Josh, or down the line if they can show Anna and kids with the family and have their money go directly to a trust for their kids.) JB&M didn't handle it nearly well enough, but the general public will mostly remember the first version that came out, that JB turned Josh in himself, which...in a partial sense, he did report him to both their church and someone in law enforcement. It's an awful conundrum as parents to figure out how to do right for both victim and perpetrator minor children; the general viewing audience will sympathize and figure they did their best, since they aren't going to know about the f-ed up sexual abuse curriculum, realize the implications of the girls being blamed for stirring up desires, etc. (As is already obvious on social media, the devout fans support JB&M, not to mention Josh, and the first reports of this about JB turning Josh in were full of comments saying they "didn't even like the Duggars but good for JB.")

As it is, J&A aren't an ever-present part of a lot of the episodes - theirs normally focus heavily on their nuclear family, which makes sense when they have a separate TLC contract - and even if they move back to Arkansas, it's easy enough to exclude them from filming. Jill and Jessa have lifted right out of episodes since getting married (and having morning sickness), and viewers are used to Josh not being present with the brood at home.

I also wonder if eyes's stinkeye and disgusted almost snort at Anna saying "we're sticking with the Ms for now, we'll see about later [sic]" was because Jessa thinks Anna is a fool for having more kids with Josh, despite the gravy train about to end.

I was trying to remember exactly who said what during this (I'd already deleted it from my DVR when shit hit the fan) - if I'm remembering correctly, I think Anna was saying they didn't know for sure about the M theme, etc (which seems like BS by kid #4), and then Josh interjected that they probably would. Jessa's look of disgust at the M-theme was likely re Josh speaking rather than Anna and the M-names. (I was so perplexed about that when watching Tuesday night - regardless of what she thinks of name themes, she participated as an older teen in thinking of and voting on J names, and at baby #4 it sort of seems like J&A sticking with M names was already a given and that only the opposite would be a surprise. So her reaction to the name theme really threw me, since it made no sense. But I think Josh was the one who had just spoken, which...suddenly does make sense.

[Sew Sumi]

FWIW, Guinn Seewald deleted my FB posts supporting Jessa and her sisters. I really do not understand the mindset of these people who forgives the abuser, but neglects the abused? 

[hathorlive]

 

FWIW, Guinn Seewald deleted my FB posts supporting Jessa and her sisters. I really do not understand the mindset of these people who forgives the abuser, but neglects the abused?

 

 

She's been deleting comments all night.  People have been posting some pretty harsh (but deserved) memes, as well as comments supporting the girls.  Others are calling her out on supporting the abuser.  I'm shocked she's not aware of how to stop strangers from viewing her page.  Then again, I'm not shocked.  The Duggars don't usually hang around smart people.  Or people who know how to Google things.

[WalrusGirl]

(Backtracking, but this was saved while I was trying to get current before posting. Feel free to remove if not appropriate!)

Anyone in here a lawyer? How are they able to arrest priests decades after abuse but couldn't arrest Josh because the 3-year statute of limitation had passed? So confusing.

In a lot of cases/states (with varying statutes of limitation), they couldn't. But if I'm remembering correctly, the decades-long act of covering it up by reassigning perp priests, etc extended the clock in many other cases and countries. Some states (like Arkansas) extended their statutes of limitation in the subsequent years; in some cases, the new statute is applied retroactively (ie, if the statute is three years when you commit a crime but it's then extended, you can be prosecuted under the new extended statute even after the three year period that was law at the time of the offense passes), in others it isn't.

As someone else mentioned, generally the clock doesn't start for minor victims of sexual assault until they turn 18, or, as is relevant to the priests comparison, in the case of repressed memories the clock may start at the time the victim remembers.

Because this naturally follows some of the above: whether Arkansas' updated statute for sexual assault (which I think is currently until a minor victim turns 28/10 years after a minor victim turns 18?) was retroactive, I have no idea. But no charges could be brought without a victim's cooperation and testimony; Josh's confession to his family and church, as well as the destroyed 2006 report, are hearsay. They would need either a victim, witness, or Josh presently willing to report/confess (to police/prosecutors) what they actually saw or did firsthand. (Whether the imprisoned state trooper's testimony of Josh's confession to him, as law enforcement, is admissible I don't know. Josh was a minor without a lawyer, but a parent was present.)

I'm not trying to speculate here; I'm sure appropriate departments in Arkansas are under public pressure to figure these things out. But just to short-circuit the implications of Arkansas' updated statute of limitations as pertains to these individuals - even if it was a retroactive change, I don't see any of the Duggar victims cooperating at this time, and Josh's statement was surely vetted by a lawyer (to avoid an explicit confession) with those concerns in mind.

[RedheadZombie]

I want to say I'm really disgusted by the incompetent redacting of the police report.  Yes, they blacked out the names and even pronouns, but leaving in the victim's parents' names is just inexcusable.  It's just so unfair to the girls, and they should not be forced into commenting in any way - either to attack Josh or defend him.

 

 

Here's where I'm torn about JB&M's actions - potentially criminally insufficient (my opinion) as it was, it's not at all unusual, or a direct result of their extremism. Doing nothing when one of the victims first told him in March 2002: entirely typical. Unfortunately that's what usually happens with intrafamily sexual abuse, even in normal families, even if the perpetrator is an adult and not also their own child. (Not believing the victim or just utterly failing via some combination of denial and being at a total loss.) When Josh admitted it to them in July 2002: merely punishing him is, well, more than what frequently happens. (!) In March 2003, when he confesses again: going to their church for advice, telling other families and anyone in law enforcement (even someone JB knew), and sending the minor perpetrator out of the house for several months and, again, punishing him at all - well, that's really quite a bit more than parents in intrafamily sexual abuse situations often do. As were their family set-ups and rules to protect the kids going forward, which always seemed either absurd (until three days ago) or indicative of a reaction to something like this. You'd be shocked at how many people you know and love would react in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.

 

I agree with this.  I posted extensively (in Small Talk) about incidents in my family that were handled much worse.  There are very few parents who would turn their own child in.  I keep reading that the Duggars didn't react at all to this abuse.  I think they went crazy in over-reacting.  Think of all the years viewers have been saying - WTF, why are they so weird about breaking up Jackson and Hannie?  Why are they separating Joy from the Howlers?  Why are all the girls in a dorm room with shared bathroom.  Basically - why do the Duggars act like a brother/sister relationship is sexual.  I think all of this was their reaction to the abuse.  Didn't the older boys originally have buddies, too?  If so, I think that changed in response to all of this.  So the Duggars DID react, address it, and handle it.  Just not in a way most of us would handle it.  And certainly not in the manner safest for the girls, or even Josh.  I'm not defending Jim Bob's methods, but I do think there was genuine concern, and the desire to end the abuse.  I'm shocked that he initially allowed the police to interview the girls and Josh.  I don't anyone who wouldn't have hired an attorney first.

 

 

[KateUK]

I kept thinking about all this yesterday....yeah, I know, get a life....and all I could 'see' was Michelle's moon face beaming up at Jim Bob, them holding hands and praying to God, because sure as eggs God would steer them in the right direction and tell them what to do. I think this will be Anna's thinking as well.

 

I don't think they will take any responsibility for what has happened in the past, neither do I think that the girls involved in this sorry mess will be given priority in their thinking, they won't see the destruction they have caused and the far reaching ripples that will spread out and cause havoc.

 

Instead it will be all 'lets pray to God' ...yep brilliant idea, that way you off set your role in all this and firmly place it in Gods hands.

 

Jill and Jessa managed to escape by marrying, they at least have a chance of a normal life, well, normal for them, but the other older girls are imo, doomed, all of them including the married ones, are so brain washed, so indoctrinated by JB and Michelle that I personally don't think there is any hope for them.

 

Bit like the whipped puppy syndrome, they know no different and will keep 'going back' to those that use and abuse them, meaning keeping faith with the family not Josh.

 

The way JB and Michelle have kept all the kids apart from the world, with home schooling, getting the kids to 'snitch' on each other etc has worked, they must know that now the s**t has hit the fan, that not one of them will speak out against them.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by KateUK

[Lillybee]

Are we allowed to wonder how awful this situation would have been if Jill (as it has been suggested) didn't snitch.

[Sew Sumi]

Jessica Seewald also came out in defense of the abuser, now Pa Seewald posts this:

 

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/

 

If Josh was a non-Christian minority, I imagine they'd be screaming to string him up. 

[bluebonnet]

And the fundies continue to make me feel sick.  At least Seewald acknowledged the victims, which is much more than I ever expected one of these despicable people would do.  His next blog post ought to be how he stands in solidarity with the LGBT community, because judging them is putting him in the position of his friend, god.  

[cereality]

I haven't followed what the Seewalds, Dillards, Jessa or Jill have said -- so if anyone could post, that would be great.

 

So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society." I get it unwed mothers, abortions, and STDs are bad -- and yet somehow I consider than more positive than a brother touching a sister. I'd much rather that a guy get a girl pregnant and walk away -- leaving her either a single mom or with an abortion -- bc at least it's likely that when sex occurred (i) it wasn't between siblings; and (ii) it was consensual. Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

[becca3891]

I tried to post this earlier but I don't see it so I'm reposting. I think getting lost in the shuffle for so many of the fans who have no idea who Gothard is, is that the girls were quite probably told horrible things about how they caused and contributed to what Josh did. Gothard teaches that molesting is usually caused by defrauding by immodest dress, but no matter what, if you didn't cry out so you could be heard, it then becomes your fault. That makes me angry, sad and frustrated. People don't realize this runs far deeper than just the horrible fact that it happened. It's that these monsters, JB and Michelle, still stand by an organization that preaches such damaging garbage. They were just at the ATI conference weeks ago. This link is very informative with its actual images from a IBLP workbook.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

[bluebonnet]

I tried to post this earlier but I don't see it so I'm reposting. I think getting lost in the shuffle for so many of the fans who have no idea who Gothard is, is that the girls were quite probably told horrible things about how they caused and contributed to what Josh did. Gothard teaches that molesting is usually caused by defrauding by immodest dress, but no matter what, if you didn't cry out so you could be heard, it then becomes your fault. That makes me angry, sad and frustrated. People don't realize this runs far deeper than just the horrible fact that it happened. It's that these monsters, JB and Michelle, still stand by an organization that preaches such damaging garbage. They were just at the ATI conference weeks ago. This link is very informative with its actual images from a IBLP workbook.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

Just an FYI because I've seen you post it a couple of times, it's showed up and it's been posted throughout the thread many times.  Not that it's a problem, I think people should be aware of what sort of stuff this cult teaches.  Just wanted to let you know that your posts are showing up.  

[WalrusGirl]

More appropriate in the Banessa thread, but the in-laws' reactions/potential support has been much more discussed here...

[...]now Pa Seewald posts this:

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/

If Josh was a non-Christian minority, I imagine they'd be screaming to string him up.

Agreed. In light of Guinn's commentless repost of Huckabee's statement, though, I found this part of Pa Seewald's post incredibly reassuring for Jessa (since they're more fundie than Jill's in-laws and how Derick was raised) - emphasis mine:

Speak Up!

Finally, a word to the millions of muted victims of sexual abuse all over the world. It is not your fault. No matter what the abuser may have said, you are not the one to blame. Do not keep silent if you are being abused, tell someone you trust, a parent, a teacher, a friend, anyone is better than silence. You are likely not the only one who has been abused. Tell someone so that they will be stopped. If the person you tell doesn’t contact the right people to help, tell someone else. Stay away from the abuser if at all possible, or avoid being alone with them. If the abuser is in your family, you may feel conflicted. You may love this person and can’t understand why they are hurting you. No matter how much you love the abuser you must tell someone. Remember, it is never okay for someone to treat you that way even if they are a parent, a sibling, or a friend. There are many people who will help you if you just break the silence.

To me this says that Ben and Pa Seewald don't see the victims as being to blame. I think we were surer of where Cathy and her husband would fall, so I actually found his comments to be a relief. (I hardly expected him to disown Josh or not spout forgiveness/repentance/sin, but he was honestly a little harder on Josh in places than I'd anticipated. Just a relief to have a good feel on their family's religious positions re the victims, because re the victims that's as good as it was going to get.)

Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

I'm glad he didn't go there at all, in terms of his DIL's probable position. Focusing on sibling incest just adds stigma to the victims. Edited May 24, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[cmr2014]

 

So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society."

 

I think that the Seewalds (and Mike Hickabee) would have been well advised to sit on this for a couple of days before responding. A simple anodyne "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," would have been supportive of the family without forcing them to defend a child molester.

[becca3891]

 

And Josh was reading a book to the kids while the older ones and parents were out to dinner? (about a raccoon or something - not Jesus)  I was very surprised. Especially the types of books mentioned.

I just did a little digging and found the book series, called Adam Raccoon. They're Christian books teaching about character, and King Aren the lion is the Jesus figure. So that makes sense.

http://www.themoorings.org/perspectives/literature/reviews/keane.html

 

Just an FYI because I've seen you post it a couple of times, it's showed up and it's been posted throughout the thread many times.  Not that it's a problem, I think people should be aware of what sort of stuff this cult teaches.  Just wanted to let you know that your posts are showing up.

 

Thank you! I don't want to repeat myself but for some reason it wasn't showing on my phone; I guess that was my phone's fault.

Edited May 24, 2015 by becca3891

[PrincessSteel]

My mind keeps going back to that episode in which Ben and Jessa (and Jinger?) go to visit Josh in D.C., and Josh is weirdly competitive with Ben at the gym, and he's all "What are your intentions with my sister?" (paraphrasing)  At the time I just took it as another hackneyed "big bro looking out for his younger sister" plotline, but in light of the fact that he's possibly her molester??  NAUSEATING.

In light of the current shitstorm, just about any given minute of this show has heartbreaking subtext.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

this is where I'm confused about what triggered which in the timeline of the events this week - if you look at the request, it was as of 5/19, the judge signed off on it on the 21st. I didn't notice this story until I saw TMZ and Josh's apology and resignation from the FRC, when exactly did InTouch post the police report or when did they file the FOIA?

I don't know when they requested the report but you can see on the posted police report that the date in the upper left corner is 5/19/15, which I am assuming is when it was actually printed. I think inTouch posted it on Thursday.

Edited May 24, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[silverspoons]

After reading the few reactions we have gotten in print, it makes me worry Anna has no out even if she wanted one. The Duggars have always been all about their imagine and right now the most important person to play the Duggar game is Anna. Reguardless of what she is feeling or thinking we will only see Anna happy and standing by her man. I don't think they will make any planned public appearances but she will have to be aware at all times that she is the perfect happy wife and mother. I can't imagine being 7-8 months pregnant with 3 little kids let alone having to watch everything I did when I went to the grocery store. I can't imagine what the plane ride she took Friday was like? All eyes had to be on her and Josh and the kids.

 

After living in rural Utah and seeing many men get power that lack education (even our governor never went to college) , common sense , and qualifications because of religion. I guess it does not surprise me that Jim Bob a high school graduate that sold used cars and won a 2 year 12k a year job as a state rep now suddenly has gained so much power. Because of religious ties? having 19 kids? If anyone actually wants to watch this show again, try it with just sound. I did this a few times and Jim Bob has such a limited use of words and phrases week after week, yet he is so influential he can call in big favors in government and law enforcement?

[Sunnybobs]

Ok I really don't actually like the Seewalds and think their own adherence to the vision forum cult is as alarming as the Duggars Gothardism. Also Guinn's public sharing of the Huckabee message was in my opinion foolish and ill timed.

Having said that the post by Dad Seewald is (in the frame of fundamentalist Christianity in which they are all clearly working) not that bad - he calls Josh's actions "reprehensible" which is further than others so far, he gives the victims the right & dignity to remain unnamed and also reminds his readers that they are unnamed. He also is very very clear to victims that they are not to blame - way further than anyone else this close has got to stating this and I don't think he is condoning how Jb&M dealt with it but saying something quite similar to Walrusgirls excellent post above that nearly all families mess up these situations. So while I don't agree with lots of his post I actually think there are parts where he is showing some thought and solidarity to the victims.

(And it's taken me so long to type this I expect a 100 responses have just said this better above!)

[msblossom]

Therapy for someone who has been sexually abused does not HAVE to be about recalling details. Therapy would be about coping with the aftermath - nightmares, anxiety, depression, self-esteem issues. Talking through feelings of anger at the abuser and getting clarity about blame, guilt, forgiveness, trust. It's always more about expressing feelings than it is about re-living details.With these girls it would also be about reconciling family and religious views on sex and male/female roles, with their experiences.

Hmm, I wasn't implying that therapy had much to do with details of the abuse. I was referring to repressing and acknowledging the feelings of guilt and shame, isolation, depression, recurrent thoughts and nightmares, distrust of the opposite sex, anger toward parents/Josh, etc.

[JenCarroll]

Having said that the post by Dad Seewald is (in the frame of fundamentalist Christianity in which they are all clearly working) not that bad - he calls Josh's actions "reprehensible" which is further than others so far, he gives the victims the right & dignity to remain unnamed and also reminds his readers that they are unnamed. He also is very very clear to victims that they are not to blame - way further than anyone else this close has got to stating this and I don't think he is condoning how Jb&M dealt with it but saying something quite similar to Walrusgirls excellent post above that nearly all families mess up these situations. So while I don't agree with lots of his post I actually think there are parts where he is showing some thought and solidarity to the victims.

I have to agree, considering the framework they are all working within, this is better than I would have expected. I really think Guinn's post was appalling, inappropriately political, and unnecessary, but the fact is that some people are going to speak up (and some of us might be criticizing them if they hadn't). Pa Seewald goes to some lengths to say that it was in no way the fault of the victims. That's a thousand times better than the Gothard position, which is probably all she's hearing from her own parents.

[Quilt Fairy]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Duggar-Family-Dropped-From-Philly-Block-Party-304808031.html

 

The Duggar family from TLC's "19 Kids and Counting" has been dropped from the TLC Summer Block Party coming to Philadelphia next weekend

 

.

[Lillybee]

Those poor girls

1. they are molested by their brother whom they are trained to look up to.

2. they are required to forgive him and I think apologize to him for defrauding him

3.They are required to live with him and sit across the table from him during dinner, bible time and homeschooling.

4.They were required to cook his meals, do his laundry and clean the toilets after he used them.

5. And they had to do all this while keeping sweet.

[Spencer Hastings]

4.They were required to cook his meals

Maybe THAT'S why he gained so much weight when he got married. He could finally eat a meal without having to worry about it being laced with cyanide, or at the very least, wads of spit from five very angry sisters. I wouldn't have blamed them one bit. Edited May 24, 2015 by Spencer Hastings

[KittyS]

Ugh! I hate how all of the fundies are lining up to support Josh. So basically you can commit any number of vile acts, but if you repent, you will be forgiven? How convenient! Josh doesn't strike me as the kind of person who has even an ounce of humility. If he had learned one bit from his "mistakes," he might have had the self awareness not to take a very public job preaching about family values. Then again, this is someone whose own father thinks it's a swell idea to put his whole family on camera not long after a major family crisis.

Honestly, reading the support for the Duggars on Facebook, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they ended up getting their show back. They're not going to learn, grow, or change from this.

[Darknight]

Anyone saw the episode that was suppose to happen May 28. A three part trip to Israel. Not anymore

[Darknight]

Ugh! I hate how all of the fundies are lining up to support Josh. So basically you can commit any number of vile acts, but if you repent, you will be forgiven? How convenient! Josh doesn't strike me as the kind of person who has even an ounce of humility. If he had learned one bit from his "mistakes," he might have had the self awareness not to take a very public job preaching about family values. Then again, this is someone whose own father thinks it's a swell idea to put his whole family on camera not long after a major family crisis.

Honestly, reading the support for the Duggars on Facebook, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they ended up getting their show back. They're not going to learn, grow, or change from this.

Here's the thing. If Josh and JimChelle are really remorseful and repented then why is it coming out now and not when the show first started? The duggars tried so hard to hide this and only speaking out now that they got caught. Why didn't tlc created an episode about what Josh did? Or see how the family cope with this? Maybe even a family or couple therapy session. But nope the hid it. Josh's or JimChelle or Anna's statements didn't seem remorseful. Josh only cares about Josh and the family brand.

[mynextmistake]

Here's the thing. If Josh and JimChelle are really remorseful and repented then why is it coming out now and not when the show first started? The duggars tried so hard to hide this and only speaking out now that they got caught. Why didn't tlc created an episode about what Josh did? Or see how the family cope with this? Maybe even a family or couple therapy session. But nope the hid it. Josh's or JimChelle or Anna's statements didn't seem remorseful. Josh only cares about Josh and the family brand.

Maybe the victims don't want to air their grievances or participate in therapy on TV. Would you want to discuss the worst thing that ever happened to you in front of millions of people? They don't owe us that by any stretch of the imagination.

I do have a problem with how the Duggars handled, or failed to handle, the abuse at the time. And I agree that Josh and JimBob/Michelle's statments did not seem genuinely remorseful. But I don't have a problem with the Duggars and TLC not making a public spectacle of children's trauma.

[bluebonnet]

I agree with mynextmistake.  They didn't need to air these grievances.  However, they shouldn't have been on tv, and definitely shouldn't have been trying to preach hypocritical 'values'.  At the very least, Josh shouldn't have been given a platform.  The network also should have ceased all production as soon as the Oprah thing happened.  TLC should have investigated all of these molestation rumors swirling the camp before they continued to exploit children.  This wasn't like CPS was given a tip, they came in and found nothing and so TLC had no reason to investigate further.  There is a police report where the victims AND the parents discussed what happened, and this was in response to Harpo canceling an interview and forwarding an email to the appropriate persons.  Absolutely TLC knew what was going on and the reason why a major bout of publicity was abruptly canceled.  

[becca3891]

From the blog comment back in 2007, Jim Bon paraded Josh around the home-church to make him confess. Alice had all the other details correct, so I have no reason to doubt her. Josh also had to confess to the church elders, which is speculated to have included Pa Keller, Gil Bates, and of course Gothard.

Just to clarify, there is no unified, nationwide Gothard church. He is an author and speaker, not a minister. Most of his followers belong to various ultra conservative denominations throughout the country, often Independent Fundamental Baptists or home churches, such as the Duggars's home church that now meets in a storage facility. So the church elders would not include Pa Keller, Gil Bates or Gothard. Each of those men belongs to his own local church. I don't believe we know the names of any of the storage facility church members, although I think probably the Querys and Sierra's family are among them. But didn't the Query husband die?

[humbleopinion]

America was duped to believe this family's message of modesty in dress and actions, especially for the girls.

Turns out it was, in part, to thwart their eldest son from his disgusting incestous urges.

How can we let TLC know that to continue to support the Duggars and give them a platform is bad business for the cable network?

If the public is allowed to the Philly TLC party hopfully there will be signs/placards urging TLC to keep the Duggars off TV.

Will an ex-TLC official ever explain why they were so willing to showcase the Duggars when Oprah would touch them with a ten foot pole?

[NextIteration]

This is such a sad situation.  I have a masters in counseling but do not practice.  I have two close friends who are survivors and they've both had nightmares the past few nights.  I can only hope those girls get help some day.

 

This whole situation is major league triggering for me, I can't speak for other survivors.  The powerlessness of the girls in this situation is terrible, and the age of the smallest one at the time is heinous.  And this is after I've done years and years of trauma work (therapy).

 

I haven't followed what the Seewalds, Dillards, Jessa or Jill have said -- so if anyone could post, that would be great.

 

So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society." I get it unwed mothers, abortions, and STDs are bad -- and yet somehow I consider than more positive than a brother touching a sister. I'd much rather that a guy get a girl pregnant and walk away -- leaving her either a single mom or with an abortion -- bc at least it's likely that when sex occurred (i) it wasn't between siblings; and (ii) it was consensual. Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

 

The whole problem with all of that is that it is a lie.  If you look at national statistics, the places in the country where there are more of the belief systems that the Duggars embrace - along with the ignorance, the abstinence, the denial of female reproductive rights... that's where all the "bad stuff" like teenage STDs, teenage pregnancies and single mothers have the highest numbers statistically.  Also used to have way higher abortion statistics but that is probably changing in relation to all the limitations that have been placed on abortions in those states.

 

I don't know when they requested the report but you can see on the posted police report that the date in the upper left corner is 5/19/15, which I am assuming is when it was actually printed. I think inTouch posted it on Thursday.

 

Thanks Boogaloo!  I knew I was missing something - and still, it's like the two things happened concurrently, as in, perhaps the family was tipped off what was coming?  Or someone was aware that the request was being made for the expungement in anticipation of the 18th birthday and tipped off InTouch.  

 

The only reason I ever watched this show the little bit I did was to see first hand, slack jawed how freaking backwards and actually dangerous this whole "quiverfull" nonsense was.  I mean I can't even hate watch things like this to snark about it because it's scary to me that people believe these things and try to spread this stuff.  I can hate watch CPAC because it's inevitable, but the network of fools that make it possible are just mind boggling to me.

 

To me there wouldn't even need to have been an incestuous molestation to consider these children abused, the act of brainwashing them and using a rod on them alone is abuse.  Making them hide secrets and behave like robots in front of a camera after a family crisis is on a whole other level, adding in the Gothard training, there are no words.  And of course the State Trooper that was called in to give a stern speaking to Josh is now serving time for pedo-porn and Gothard himself appears to be a pedophile on some level (which is why he trains young females to be perfect victims for himself and his brethren...)

 

If only this would eject Hucksterbee from the clown car, but it won't because these holier than thou pious fools believe they are saving the country not destroying it.  Thank goodness that despite all of this the general movement of the US population is away from religion.  I'm sooo disappointed that Maher and Oliver are off this weekend but I don't think this will have died down by the time they get back.

 

eta:  I wrote TLC last night and followed up with Comcrap because this shit is still available OnDemand and I want it GONE.

Edited May 24, 2015 by NextIteration

[EtheltoTillie]

This. This has really been bugging me today. I can try to put aside my considerable cynicism/skepticism and, for the sake of argument, accept that Josh's punishment/renovation work/whatever actually worked and he repented and confessed. He might have completely reformed and became a perfectly respectable, upstanding hate-monger (oops, said I wouldn't be cynical, didn't I?). If his parents hadn't sold out to TLC, this story would never have broken and no one would have ever known. How could the Boob and Meechelle have agreed to put their children on tv knowing they had this massive skeleton in their closet that was bound to come out sooner or later and ruin everyones life? They can't have believed it would stay quiet forever.

This to me even explains Michelle's weird affect. Every word out of her mouth about purity is a lie, and yet she has to repeat it week after week. No wonder she always looks and sounds wacky, with the strain of covering up.

[andromeda331]

I do agree with above the girls shouldn't feel like speaking up if they really don't want to. I mean they really don't want to and not their parents telling them what they want. But I honestly, don't feel sorry for Josh one bit. If he had gotten real counseling, help, punishment or something, then maybe. If he didn't spend the next decade being smug and superior to everyone around him. If he was sprouting all the purity and modesty. If he wasn't sprout hate towards gays and the "danger" they presented. If he didn't complain about all the stuff the girls got. If he wasn't competitive with Derrick and Ben. If he didn't call Jill a snitch. If he had behaved in anyway different or sorry, then I might feel some sympathy. But he didn't. How nice that his life wasn't ruined by him committing a horrible act against his sisters. How nice for him that his victims for gave him and continued to cook and clean for him. How nice for his victims got to spend the next decade on tv pretending everything was perfect and great, and that he was the best brother ever.

[BitterApple]

Here's the thing. If Josh and JimChelle are really remorseful and repented then why is it coming out now and not when the show first started? The duggars tried so hard to hide this and only speaking out now that they got caught. Why didn't tlc created an episode about what Josh did? Or see how the family cope with this? Maybe even a family or couple therapy session. But nope the hid it. Josh's or JimChelle or Anna's statements didn't seem remorseful. Josh only cares about Josh and the family brand.

Why should they? If you had a daughter who was molested would you want to announce that to two million viewers? I know everyone is out for blood right now but the Duggars don't owe us anything. Forcing your kids to do some kind of group therapy session on national tv is just as bad as covering up the abuse in the first place, IMO.

[NextIteration]

Why should they? If you had a daughter who was molested would you want to announce that to two million viewers? I know everyone is out for blood right now but the Duggars don't owe us anything. Forcing your kids to do some kind of group therapy session on national tv is just as bad as covering up the abuse in the first place, IMO.

 

I don't think they should.  But, I also think it's heinous to throw cameras in said victims' faces and forcing them to behave like nothing happened and everything is wonderful.  Never mind robocalling about the "scary" transgendered folk that want to use the correctly gendered bathrooms implying that they are child molesters when you have one in your midst that you have elevated to a national level as a representative of the number one political group representing "conservative christian values".

 

But you're correct the "Duggars" don't owe the nation anything, though true Christians aren't judgmental hypocrites, imnsho.

Edited May 24, 2015 by NextIteration

[starfire]

humbleopinion, on 24 May 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

How can we let TLC know that to continue to support the Duggars and give them a platform is bad business for the cable network?

 

Someone upthread posted this email to contact TLC:  viewer_relations@discovery.com

 

There is also a "feedback" option on the lower righthand corner of this page where you can leave a comment about the show/network (and can do so anonymously) http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/

 

I did both.

 

P.S. There is also a "viewer relations" contact page: http://corporate.discovery.com/contact/viewer-relations/

Edited May 24, 2015 by starfire

[bencr]

So Michael Seewold writes, "There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."

 

Well no shit. When the Duggars claim  to hold the moral high ground and actively advocate to deny gay people their basic human rights based on their religious beliefs, you better believe that their opponents are going to pounce when the Duggars show their true colors. The irony here, of course, is that the Duggar family stumbled on the very issue with which they are most vocal and judgmental -- sexual mores. What's that they say about people who live in glass houses?

 

If it were not for the righteous hypocrisy of this clan on sexual matters, I'm not sure this whole thing would be nearly as big a story as it has become.

 

And BTW, Mr. Seewold, the "shocking revelations of scandal" are not just about the firstborn son, Josh. They are also about the community of adults who chose to try to sweep this event under the rug for their own benefit rather than for the benefit of the children affected.

[dorcastrilling]

I'm seeing Joseph and Isiah's times at Alert as being their choices now. Anything to get out of that house. They are also the two that have found other outs: away at school and early courtship. Joseph must have especially made his feelings known for JB to cough up the money and head off to "raise above his rearin'".

 

I sincerely hope Marjorie's family does not hold Josh against Josiah. I also hope those girls are not ostracized by friends in their fundie world. All those kids need rallying around, not shaming/shunning.

[BetyBee]

This whole story is very troubling.  Josh is a smug know-it-all.  We all know that.  I do have to say though, that even though I didn't grow up in a fundie family, I seriously doubt that my parents would have handled it much differently.  I don't think it's unusual to sweep sexual abuse under the rug and try to go on as if nothing happened.  I'm not saying that is the right thing to do. It absolutely is not, but I would bet that it's the typical family response. Any molested Duggar daughter who speaks out against Josh at this point will lose the support of her family, or at least of most of her family.  That would be a great loss to them and they are not likely to risk it.  It takes a lot of courage to speak out against a sibling. If the 4 molested sisters choose not to go there, that is their choice.  I hate that Josh has seemed to skate through his crime without punishment, but it does appear that he is facing consequences now with the loss of his job and the TLC gravy train. Perhaps he will learn some humility in time.  I hope so. 

 

I am surprised that Michael Seewald had such a reasonable blog post that did call Josh to task and did not blame the victims at all.  It gives me hope for Jessa to feel safe.  The ones I worry about most in all of this are Anna and her children.  She is truly trapped and probably doesn't have the support to strike out on her own.  I have no idea if Josh is likely to molest their children and I'm sure she doesn't either.  I hope not.  She is a loving mother and I hope she can protect them.  She thought she married into fundie royalty and now she is in the middle of a nightmare. 

 

What will happen to all of these people who are so used to showing off their modesty on camera?  What goes on when the cameras and the money stop?  They will likely go through the 5 stages of grief.  I hope that they come through it all right, maybe even stronger. 

[NJRach]

I always thought it was simple to have a predator/molester reported and dealt with. Until I reported someone. I had no idea of the issues that cropped up. This was a teenager who I always knew had power trip fetishes, like annoying people to the point of almost holding them hostage in fear. One day he crossed a line and  exposed himself to a few of his little sister's friends and tried to get them to touch him. One of which was my my son. My son ran and got my husband, who was in the next room.

 

What happened next? My husband went to see what was going on and the kid had run to the sofa and was lying there playing with his IPhone like nothing happened. We skipped telling the parents, as their previous reactions to his power trips were,"Oh, our little dear wouldn't hurt anyone." They'd even tell my son he was overreacting.

 

So I'd had enough and called Child Protective Services. They questioned the boy and his younger sister at their schools. And then the hell began. The parents circled the wagons around the monster. They emailed and sent me nasty letters. . I was in fear of running into them for a year, and afraid they'd show up in my driveway some dark night.

 

I also filed a police report. The police kept saying, "Well, no contact was made," and looked at me like I was an overreacting wacko. All I could think of was what was going to happen to the little sister. No one seemed concerned.

 

I got so fed up I wanted to recant the whole thing and forget it. I wonder if that is what is going on with the Duggar girls. When there is no overwhelming support, (like there would be if you had been the victim of cancer of an accident), it is a huge gray area. The more you push for justice, the more some will push back and make you doubt yourself. It has to be especially hard if you are still dependent and it's your parents not taking your side. The girls will probably get harrassed for ruining Josh's life as well as Anna and the kids if they pursue this.

 

I would never have realized all this if I hadn't been part of the process.

Edited May 24, 2015 by NJRach

[Patrizio]

I am inclined to let The Seewold's comments slide a little in light of the fact that if I were them, I would be beyond pissed off that those fools were in-laws now. I bet it seems like only yesterday that their son's wedding was breathlessly chronicled in that fundie friendly magazine, People!  They thought they were marrying into the fundie royal family-OOPS!  I remember reading about the J-slaves on TWOP years ago. I didn't even know that these allegations about the family have been around for years. As a lifelong Oprah admirer, it's good to know that at least some people took the correct steps in dealing with this crime.  I used to watch Duck Dynasty. I liked pretty much the whole family-even crusty old Phil. But, then all the gay hate speech came out and I was done. I had a pact with that family to entertain me, not remind me that there are folks out there that are consumed with hate for their fellow man.  Maybe TLC will keep them on the air, I have no way of knowing how soulless they are. But the ratings will dwindle, the advertisers will be inundated with negative feedback. Perhaps we will witness the entire network brought low by this family.