Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[3girlsforus]

https://m.facebook.com/guinn.seewald.1?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fguinn.seewald.1&soft=messages

welp, guess ben and his family didnt let the cat out of the bag.

 

Just adds to my fear that Jessa will be expected to act like it never happened. If this is how the Seewalds feel, then Ben probably feels that same. I wonder if Jill will have better luck with husbandly support

[Dawn16]

As a Christian (though not a fundamentalist), I feel sick reading all these comments on FB and opinion pieces claiming that, because he "confessed" (vaguely and only because he had no choice), all is forgiven and no one must criticize him or his parents.  God loves us like a good parent -- he forgives and wants a relationship with us no matter what we do, but he doesn't shield us from the natural consequences of our wrongful actions, whether that be prison, public disapproval, loss of a job, or loss of custody.  And God also loves the victims and want them to be comforted, protected, and supported.  I am disappointed that so many Christian "fans" have forgotten about the victims.  Has there been any indication that they ever received any counseling that explained that it was not their fault, it was not okay, and they are allowed to be angry and sad?  Christian "fans" of the family should be focused on that, not proclaiming over and over that God has forgiven, we're sinful, so it's all good. 

 

However, I also want to point out that denial and minimizing is common in these situations regardless the religious beliefs.  So many relatives will choose to believe or excuse even adult perpetrators and reject victims who dare to tell the truth.   Disclosures very frequently split families apart.  I'm trying not to speculate and I am still shocked at what we have learned, but disclosures also very frequently come out slowly over time, with victims who feel safe and supported (unlike these girls) beginning with relatively mild disclosures and later revealing more severe offenses.    

Edited May 23, 2015 by Dawn16

[Happyfatchick]

Josh does not own that house and I'm pretty sure he never did.  I think Mary signed it over to JB to put in the Duggar Trust.

I know. It was a joke ;)

[silverspoons]

https://m.facebook.com/guinn.seewald.1?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fguinn.seewald.1&soft=messages

welp, guess ben and his family didnt let the cat out of the bag.

This makes me sad. I had a little hope Ben's family might offer some real help. I also held out hope that Jessa was the most headstrong of the daughters might have a backbone enough to leave or speak out. I guess they are loyal to the brand and the TLC $$$.

Edited May 23, 2015 by silverspoons

[Drapers4thWife]

I'm not sure I believe Josh stopped this behavior. 

 

This was not a one-time incident, this was several incidents over a period of time, to his pre-pubescent sisters well after he hit puberty. You do not "get over" pedophilia and/or molesting young children without intense therapy. We know Josh did not get that. We also know that Josh was not punished, that in fact his parents pulled strings to deliberately avoid punishment for him and deliberately acted as if this didn't happen. We know that Josh was allowed to not only live in the home as before with his same victims and subsequent little sisters, but that Jim Bob gave Josh authority over those girls. We also know that Gothard doctrine dictates that the girls be blamed and guilted into forgiving Josh and making pretend like this never happened, so there would be no use in any of them telling on Josh again. 

 

Add to that the later involvement with TLC, and the girls would've been pressured even more to pretend like this never happened. If they talked or accused Josh again, there goes all that TLC money, all that public attention for the perfect family, all the extras and jobs in politics and speaking engagements. They would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling on Josh again, especially because they knew firsthand that the adults and authorities around would never make Josh face the consequences. 

[ChicksDigScars]

Fox News has a story on how this is the 5th show that TLC/Discovery has that a molestation scandal has come out.

 

Refresh my memory, what are the five? Off the top of my head, I know three, Cake Boss (still on....aren't they?), the Boo Boo's (cancelled) and now the Duggars (pulled, but not definitely cancelled yet).

 

Are the Jeubs being counted, here? I know their father has been accused of being abusive, but they only had a couple of specials, not a series. Kate Gosselin has always been accused of being verbally abusive. 

[Patrizio]

I think that TLC will cancel the show. There is just too much negative press. Sponsors are bailing. People magazine is printing real comments from actual folks, and they are not happy. Rarely saw the show, but watch other TLC programs. I would observe a boycott of the  channel/products though. I am concerned  that these people (Duggars), judging by how their supporters are powerful (Huckabee), are going to be very difficult for the network to shed. However, I would definitely watch a spinoff about one of the kids going rogue.  When I was younger, I was friends with a girl who was in a "rainbow" family(self described). Bunch of adopted kids, different races, some with disabilities. Found out later that she was abused. Everyone thought that the parents were saints. I think that these Duggar girls have a story to tell.

[JoanArc]

Very disappointed to read that post by Guinn. That's her, and tacitly Ben, endorsing what went on.

[Swedee]

Real question: I'm not a mother so it's easy to say what I would or wouldn't do. I see people saying what Michelle and Jim Bob should have done with Josh, but what would you all do in this situation? Obviously you get everyone help and professional counseling, but where does your son go from there? Does he continue to live with you? Do you send him elsewhere? When is he welcome in the family home again? What were Michelle and Jim Bob supposed to do with their son?

Just speaking from my experience, you have to protect your child(ren) from predators, even if the predator is also your child. If one child is abusing other children, then that child must be removed immediately and not allowed to return until treatment is completed and the authorities sign off. I know it sounds too simplistic but that is what has to happen. It is not an easy situation and it might not have been easy for JB and Michelle to find a safe place to send Josh but that was the only acceptable option. By allowing Josh to continue to live in the house sent EVERYONE the message that what he was doing was ok.

[Luciano]

Refresh my memory, what are the five? Off the top of my head, I know three, Cake Boss (still on....aren't they?), the Boo Boo's (cancelled) and now the Duggars (pulled, but not definitely cancelled yet).

Are the Jeubs being counted, here? I know their father has been accused of being abusive, but they only had a couple of specials, not a series. Kate Gosselin has always been accused of being verbally abusive.

Here is the article. It's the Duggars, Cake Boss, Cheer Perfection, HBB, and Discovery Channel's Sons of Guns.

[leighroda]

The ONLY reason I want the show to continue is to see mama June try to sue TLC.

[Pasha Kitty]

From a poster up thread: "I take no glee in the harm that has happened to the girls. I am satisfied that the hypocrisy of the parents was exposed."  Well said.

Serves Jim Bob right that he is fully aware that the public now knows his 'dirty secret' in covering this up, and his image is now tarnished beyond repair.  I don't place as much blame on Michelle, because JB rules that roost.  JB could have done something with regard to treatment for Josh back then, but he chose to cover it up because he smelled TLC bucks.

 

I feel for Anna; I always thought she was the most interesting one to watch on the show.... maybe it was the chicken-etti episode that did it..... but she will stick by her man, no doubt, because what else is she to do?  Move her three kids + pregnant self down to her parents' in Florida?  

 

Josh, he is arrogant, yes, but he seemed like a reasonable guy overall.  Geez...... and we all thought The Fabulous David Waller was the creepy one!

 

[Drapers4thWife]

If I were in that situation, I would know that sexual offenders almost always repeat their offenses. The only possible way to stop it is with early intervention and intense therapy, so that's what I would do for my son. I also would work with the authorities to make sure that he faced any punishment. Fifteen year olds face juvenile court all the time for lesser offenses. 

 

I would definitely remove my son from the home. If not to treatment or a juvenile facility, I would find a relative or friend without minors in the home who would definitely take him in. I would get my daughters therapy to work through their trauma, and they would have to work through their feelings as to whether they wanted a relationship with their brother or not. At that point, the son would only be a couple of years from adulthood, so I would likely never allow him to move back in permanently and have him stay elsewhere until he was an adult. If he completed therapy, served his punishment and my daughters were okay with it, I might eventually allow him visits back to the home for holidays, etc. but as long as there would no minors present. 

 

I don't know if I would ever be able to support my son having kids of his own in that situation, though. Like I said, he would have to prove that he'd changed by facing punishment and doing likely years of therapy and rebuilding relationships. 

[JoanArc]

If anyone has Facebook friends that support the Duggars steer them to this article. The picture of everyone walking to the polls was taken in '02...the same time of the abuses. I think seeing the family at their actual ages then is a total shock. When you put the crimes to the picture, it makes it all the more heinous.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093136/How-squeaky-clean-photo-launched-Duggars-fame-2002-belied-sordid-molestation-secret-home.html

[Bella]

Can we please take the "what I would do if my son molested my daughter" stories to another thread, like the Small Talk: Prayer Closet thread? I know it's not a perfect fit, but we're trying to keep this thread more focused on Josh and the situation that has resulted from his actions.

 

I personally find those stories interesting, but this is the "big thread" right now, and the mods need your help now more than ever in keeping things on topic.

 

Thanks!

[natyxg]

If anyone has Facebook friends that support the Duggars steer them to this article. The picture of everyone walking to the polls was taken in '02...the same time of the abuses. I think seeing the family at their actual ages then is a total shock. When you put the crimes to the picture, it makes it all the more heinous.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093136/How-squeaky-clean-photo-launched-Duggars-fame-2002-belied-sordid-molestation-secret-home.html

 

Thanks for the link, it was a really good article. but it missed the incidents that I thought were the most disturbing: the laundry room one and the story time one.

 

Josh has  aged ROUGH. Damn.

[maggiemae]

Sorry but I can't seem to find out what TTH and sin in the camp means, can someone else me out? Thanks.....

[Missy Vixen]

Agree. TLC could never make a Frontline-quality documentary of this show and at this point. Unless, that is, they're willing to bring in a Frontline-quality staff to do it. And I'd bet my retirement fund they won't be doing that. I also honestly wonder whether or not Boob wants to continue with the show. I admit my initial reaction was 'Oh boy, I'll bet Boob will do anything to keep that TLC cash rolling in...' But now I'm really wondering if he would. Maybe he would prefer to sink beneath the waves again. I have to say that financially I'm not worried about them. He's a millionaire several times over and probably has, in actuality, much more $ than we think. In the end I think the reasons to end the show will outweigh those to keep it. Maybe Boob will hold a family meeting and for the first time in his life, ASK, rather than TELL, the kids what they want to do.

IMHO of course, because you know I really enjoy your posts. ;-)

 

Jim Boob isn't going to ask anyone else shit. Seriously. This is a man who is so arrogant (and was so desperate to bring in funds to subsidize his family of sixteen when this all started) he believed that he could sweep a truly ugly family secret under the rug in hopes that he and J-Chelle could continue breeding for Jesus on someone else's dime. This is the same guy who spent $250,000 on his senate campaign while his 14 kids were living in a three-bedroom house, eating rice (and little else) three meals a day, and hiding in the bathroom with a plate during mealtimes to get any food at all. Again, IMHO, but he really doesn't care about the effects of cameras. instant fame, or the 24x7 media coverage on his family. Those cameras have helped him become wealthy. He's a C-list celebrity, with the ego to match. He's not giving up one minute of being on TV without a hell of a fight, and I'm guessing that Jim Boob and J-Chelle have spent the past 48 hours telling their children that it is THEIR FAULT this came out, they will do as they are told, and the show is continuing in any guise TLC chooses to continue it. Jim Boob and J-Chelle won't give up their cushy lifestyle. They don't care what their daughters (the victims of their complete incompetence as parents) think about anything.

 

The girls have already been told they will be releasing a statement absolving their brother and claiming they've been healed because of "Jesus". There will be a carefully-composed, upbeat and tear jerking article in People magazine about "forgiveness" and "Anna's Baby Joy". And there will be pictures of Jessa and Jill holding their new niece. There will be a book, and probably more than one. There will be very controlled TV appearances with any media personality that will allow pre-screening of questions and there is probably also a crisis PR team already at work and paid for by TLC. If guys like Anderson Cooper and Matt Lauer didn't have the balls to ask the tough questions before now, they're certainly not getting near the Duggars with them now. The only hope is a news organization that pieces it all together and does enough digging to report the story without consent of the Duggars -- Gothard, the family's true religious and political beliefs, the Duggars' funding of campaigns to enact legislation meant to deprive others of their civil rights -- let's face it, the information that's already coming out via TMZ, Defamer, Jezebel, etcetera is Gothard's (and TFDW's) worst nightmare.

 

Again, IMHO.

[JoanArc]

The post seems to have been removed and the page locked down. What did she say?

It's still there. She didn't write anything, but she posted a link to Huck's supporting statement.

[BitterApple]

Very disappointed to read that post by Guinn. That's her, and tacitly Ben, endorsing what went on.

I agree. I understand why she wouldn't want to make a post specifically naming Jessa as a victim, however sharing a post that defends Josh is essentially agreeing with the party line that Josh was a confused teenager, not a sexual predator. If that's her attitude I'm no longer convinced Jessa is getting the kind of support from Ben that we all want for her.

Edited May 23, 2015 by BitterApple

[Micks Picks]

If this was in 2002 it was the same year Josh first got caught touching one of the girls.  I don't think the political establishment knew it at that time, but something made Jim Bob very unappealing to the party.  He just didn't get support.  It makes me wonder what it was that made him so unappealing at that time.  And mind you, he spent reportedly $200k to $250k of his own money on this campaign, which would be better used to provide appropriate housing and psychological counseling to his kids.  

Update on the daughter who lived in a pop up tent in the woods with 7 kids, that Duggar daughter now has 9 kids and lives in Africa with her husband who has made about 3 converts in a year.

Despite Kate's horrible behavior on Kate + 8 she is back on tv again with the kids.

[TheFinalRose]

Real question: I'm not a mother so it's easy to say what I would or wouldn't do. I see people saying what Michelle and Jim Bob should have done with Josh, but what would you all do in this situation? Obviously you get everyone help and professional counseling, but where does your son go from there? Does he continue to live with you? Do you send him elsewhere? When is he welcome in the family home again? What were Michelle and Jim Bob supposed to do with their son?

 

Obviously get good help, that may require years' worth of time and money in investment. Oh, and also NOT GO ON TELEVISION smugging it over America about our perfect pure family.

 

God loves us like a good parent -- he forgives and wants a relationship with us no matter what we do, but he doesn't shield us from the natural consequences of our wrongful actions, whether that be prison, public disapproval, loss of a job, or loss of custody.  And God also loves the victims and want them to be comforted, protected, and supported.

 

 

Dawn16 I feel the same. I feel that as soon as Boob and MEchelle went on television exploiting their family for cash and fame but fooling themselves that they were doing it all in the name of JESUS, they were building up their own destruction and Josh's too.

 

They might have been woefully inadequate as parents dealing with the abuse and cherishing their daughters as victims, in private. I am sure many familes fare poorly in this regard but the key here is "in private" I do not judge their attempts to handle the situation because I have not had to walk that walk.

 

However, knowing the situation they had on their hands, they then proceeded to essentially make a deal with the devil (TLC) to pimp their family out as perfect and pure and as an EXAMPLE of Christian living. On their way, they made millions of dollars, became FAMOUS and ate all that up with huge smiles on their faces. Their giant egos justified the money and fame and material gain by saying they were doing it all to glorify God.  

 

However, their sheltered ignorant schtick could never serve them well when it comes to the monster that is the media. It fed on their good times and they are seeing now how it will feed on their bad times.  

 

So, what do they have in the end for all their attempted good works?  First, $$$ (of course!)  Second, their firstborn son is now famous for being a teenage sibling molestor. He would have still been a teenage sibling molester without going on tv, but not known all over for it. Also, now their daughters are known as Famous sibling molester victims. They would have still been victims without tv, but now everyone knows their sorrow. None of these children can ever look at a stranger again without wondering: Are they thinking about if my brother touched me, and where? Are they wondering if he did worse and we are hiding it?

 

Moral of the story  Jesus never needed Boob and MEchelle on tv to help him out.  He's been doing a pretty good job on his own for over 2000 plus years.  Boob and MEchelle's egos choose the fame and the money and the "our way is the right way" platform and as usual, the higher the climb the bigger the fall.  As a result they've ruined their son's reputation. That's what they should be apologizing for.

 

But they will never understand that the way to have avoided all of this in the first place was to have never let the cameras in.  They should have known that if the molesting story ever got out Josh would be ruined. And now he is. So it's kind of Biblical that they paid the price with the good name of their first born son.  Just my opinion. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by TheFinalRose

[mynextmistake]

It's still there. She didn't write anything, but she posted a link to Huck's supporting statement.

Well, her son is unemployed and dependent on Duggar charity for his livelihood. It was probably a little too much to expect that she would publicly claim to be shocked, horrified and unsupportive.

[Happyfatchick]

I think Huckabee (and apparently the Seewalds et al) are confused by the media storm.

For one thing, forgiveness is a beautiful and lovely gift. I myself have many demons in my past, for which I've been forgiven and am grateful. Consequently, I am easy to forgive others, even for major issues. I am not a grudge girl, I truly find it easy to forgive others if they are sincerely repentant. Especially when steps are taken to stop future offenses. However, if my past transgressions caused major life alterations for others, or even made others suspect an underlying but addressable clinical issue, then I'm pretty sure I would be open to evaluation. If, for instance I'd been convicted of embezzling money from my employer, I wouldn't be shocked to be turned down for a bank teller position. (Oversimplification, but you get my drift). No matter how forgiven, or how repentant and remorseful, when you sin, there will be consequences. Unfortunately for them all, the perpetuation of these acts and the subsequent coverup and glossing over is going to change the direction of every ripple in the pond.

Secondly, the people who seem to be leading the charge for forgiveness (Mr. Huckabee) haven't addressed the real issue. The real issue for the vast majority of us isn't that a 14 year old child within a HUGE stew of children did some very, very wrong things over a decade ago. The ISSUE, Mr. Huckabee (and the people quoting you) is that it was COVERED UP and the show went on, with this uber Christian family promoting all the Christian values and core beliefs while sitting on a crate of rotten eggs!!!!! Every single time they were on air, representing themselves to be the very model we should all aspire to BE was based on a facade. It was ALL fallacy. The lengths they went to, to display their purity, their dedication to the models they put in place for themselves!!!

It appears (to me) that the original "mistakes" [multiple and perhaps repeated AFTER being brought out the first time] were discovered around the same time they were deciding whether or not to go weekly with a show. There may have been ACTUAL discussions about getting the cameras out of their lives or if they believed the "mistakes" were controlled enough to move forward. I am shocked and insulted that, though they probably did put more rules and guidelines in place within the family, they allowed the show to go.

THAT is the basis for the fallout, NOT lack of forgiveness.

I personally don't have a problem forgiving them - when they address the real issue. I want (I NEED) for someone IN THAT FAMILY (you, Jim Bob, MAN UP!!) to say honestly, here's what we found out, here's when, this is what we did, and this is where we screwed up. We were wrong. THEN, healing can begin.

Additionally, for the scores of Christians who've already spent years apologizing and explaining that no... We're not all like the Duggars... NOW we get to spend MORE years distancing ourselves and defending our personal beliefs. THANKS, Duggars!!!

[berly57]

I wasn’t going to write anything on here because I felt like I would just be rehashing & reliving things which wouldn’t really add anything to the topic. But, having gotten so far to page 66 here, I really can’t hold myself back any more.

 

I am sure many things I am about to say have been covered over & over and I’m sorry in advance for my little rant . . .

 

1.  Michelle & Jim Bob Duggar are nothing short of cult leaders. They are, in my opinion, of the Jim Jones-type mentality. They are narcissistic, egotistical, people who believe they have been put on this earth to bring their way of thinking to everyone.

 

2.  The fact that Michelle & Jim Bob have consistently thrown their sexuality into their childrens’ faces -- and Lords know what we haven’t seen that has gone on off-screen -- by constantly referring to their sex lives, the dry humping, the saying how Michelle would mow the lawn in a bikini and how much they kissed before they were married, etc., to me is like just flaunting and teasing their children. It was never said in a loving, nurturing, educational way -- to me, it was said in a way that stated, ha! to all of you kids, we got to do that -- you are NOT allowed to do that.

 

3.  I am honestly torn about Josh. I was molested by a family member, however, he was a grown person. I am incredibly disgusted with Josh on the one hand, but on the other hand, as any mental health professional will tell you a normal 14-year-old’s brain is not fully developed, much less one who has grown up in the horror show known as the Duggar household. I do have a problem, as others have said, with him talking about how his life could have gone wrong, etc., but nothing about the girls he molested. But on top of that, I do hate the hypocrisy -- how dare he speak about the LGBT community and cast aspersions on others when he has done this.

 

4.  I am so hoping that somehow CPS has a reason to get involved in this now -- to protect and help the other children still in the house.

 

5. I wish more time and effort could be spent on putting the spotlight on these horrible people -- meaning Michelle & Jim Bob -- and less on Instagram, and petitions, etc., They are without a doubt some of the most despicable people I have ever heard of in all my life. I very rarely say that I hate someone but today, right now, I am hating them for what they have done to their entire family.

 

So sorry for the rambling . . .

[Missy Vixen]

And I am sick to my stomach that Guinn Seewald is evidently endorsing the coverup via the FB post that has now been removed...

 

Hey, Guinn -- put down the Kool-Aid and think about it. Do you want your grandson/granddaughter around a predator?

[GEML]

One point I do feel compelled to point out - not everyone needs or gets better through therapy. It's a modern day invention, and people for millennia have been going through trauma and despair without it. That doesn't mean I don't think the girls involved shouldn't get help IF THEY WANT IT, but their entire lives have been about doing what they are "supposed" to do.

On the chance that they have, I some way, come to terms with what happened to them, they are and should be free to handle the fallout however they wish. Whether that is in therapy, speaking out against their family, speaking out for their family, becoming advocates for other sexual abuse victims, removing themselves from the public eye - or anything in between.

But what is almost certain to happen is that no matter what choice they make, we (collective we) will in some way criticize at least one or more for making it. Every time they don't do what we want them to do, there is a tendency to assume they are "brainwashed", "drinking the koolaid," or "too afraid" etc because it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they are saying something that might be true. But I simply ask if that isn't, possibly, denying them they own capacity for adulthood the way their religion does, which we claim we are all against? It's just a thought. To be honest, I'm not always sure where the lines should be drawn. I use those phrases too. But I also believe in personal autonomy and the power of forgiveness and reconciliation. That doesn't mean they have to interact with Josh, or enjoy being with him any more, but it might mean they don't have to feel ashamed or hate him now.

I think a lot of things were said late night in the girls' room, when the littles were asleep and JB and M were "trying." I think a lot was shared in Anna's home when Josh was at work. I think plenty of things in the family have been talked about a LOT without the parents and Josh ever knowing how much needed to be said. And maybe because they all had the strength to do that - those quiet, almost whispered conversations in the dark - they've found the ability to move forward and maybe even find some happiness.

Except for Jana. We are all still worried about Jana.

[Ljohnson1987]

Smuggar should be a sex offender.

[truthtalk2014]

Someone mentioned John David. I've heard him referred to as a constable and working with law enforcement in some degree.  

 

If you work with law enforcement, you are just like a nurse, teacher , etc.  You are REQUIRED to report abuse.  I'm really not sure if he still lives there.  He may have moved out to get away from the crap going on in that house. 

 

If he reported something, I would have such respect for him.

[JoanArc]

 

And I am sick to my stomach that Guinn Seewald is evidently endorsing the coverup via the FB post that has now been removed...

Stop the freight train...the post still up.

 

 

One point I do feel compelled to point out - not everyone needs or gets better through therapy. It's a modern day invention, and people for millennia have been going through trauma and despair without it.

I disagree. It's like saying someone doesn't need antibiotics, or surgery. Sure, you MIGHT do ok without them, but we have advancements for a reason. EDIT: Had JB&M gotten therapy at the time of Josh's offenses, wouldn't that be a good thing? Even if they didn't want it? I won't derail the thread anymore, mods!

Edited May 23, 2015 by JoanArc

[mynextmistake]

Stop the freight train...the post still up.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. I didn't see it when I clicked the link.

[LilyoftheValley]

Demanding that the child victim of abuse forgive her abuser is just one more level of abuse.  A child can forgive a friend for stealing a toy, but demanding that a little girl forgive her sexual abuser is disgusting.  A child that age does not have a clear enough understanding of the situation to make a decision like that.  When she is mature enough and old enough to fully process what happened to her, she can forgive him if she so chooses.  Personally, I think this whole "forgiveness" thing that fundies go on about is just pure, grade-A bullshit they use to never fully confront their failings.  Also, I personally do not give a shit either way if a child molester got forgiveness, yet they act as though that is the end of the issue.  So these poor girls had to play the dancing monkey on TV for these past years and pretend like everything was hunky-dory with Josh because they "forgave" him.  I feel kind of sick to my stomach now that I watched this show. 

 

Also, I do not believe for one single second that Anna knew all about this before she married him.  I think at best she thought that Josh wasn't a virgin or something, but no way in hell did she know about this.  

 

Oh and my final thought: personally, I think the reason Josh molested his sisters is because he is a smug asshole, period.  I don't think it is because he was raised with odd ideas about sex or because he himself was molested.  He is just a straight-up cocky prick and he always has been one.  He never acts humble or respectful towards his sisters like he would if he really thought he did anything wrong.  He goes out into the world as a full-on authority on what is moral and ethical and he is confident that God is on his side.  

 

Josh did this because he is Josh Duggar, and Josh Duggar is a complete and total self-serving asshole.  

Edited May 23, 2015 by LilyoftheValley

[wanderwoman]

I've been wrestling back and forth with my thoughts about Josh. I think there's some truth to the fact that very young children will, especially if they themselves were victims, engage in inappropriate sexual behavior for a few reasons. In a psychology class in college, a man who admitted to sexually abusing his friend's sister (he was 12 and the girl was 9) spoke to our class about the strange normality of sexual abuse in his family. It had been done to him and his abuser was also abused and, after all was said and done, the guys family had pieced together a chain of abuse that covered six generations. Yes. He knew what he was doing was wrong and, even as a kid, he knew it was secretive... but, it was what he knew. He went on to never repeat the abuse after years of therapy. So, as I think about Josh, I just can't stop wondering if he was part of a larger chain.

I AM NOT defending his parents response. I think what they did was beyond chucked up. But, let's face it... we know there were at least two, subsequently convicted sexual offenders in his life (Gothard and the State Trooper). Who knows what happened at ALERTor IBLP gatherings. Josh may have been part of a larger epidemic. He was a child and he was taught that every sexual thought was the devils work and any independent release was sinful. And, mom and dad didn't do very much after the first complaint.

So, who bears responsibility? Of course, Josh did this. But, who were the two people who, knowing "his heart" and his struggles covered it up? Who hid behind religion and invited the world in knowing this was in the closet? Who decided Josh's manual labor was cure enough? Who took him to a sexually deviant trooper buddy rather than a licensed therapist? The PARENTS! Jim Bob was so fucking concerned about his political career that he sacrificed his childrens' privacy and home to obtain a seat in the State Senate. Then, that same dad, shoved 14 kids into a 1200 square foot home and a wife that was barely hanging onto reality. Even Grandpa Duggar commented on his belief that they had more children than they could feasibly manage! But, screw the fact that they had a serious problem and some emotionally devastated kids- Jim Bob and Michelle needed that attention. Shame on them.

[frenchtoast]

Stop the freight train...the post still up.

 

I disagree. It's like saying someone doesn't need antibiotics, or surgery. Sure, you MIGHT do ok without them, but we have advancements for a reason. EDIT: Had JB&M gotten therapy at the time of Josh's offenses, wouldn't that be a good thing? Even if they didn't want it?

I think what GEML was trying to say was that therapy cannot always fix everything. Therapy won't stop a sociopath or psychopath or narcissist. It may help some victims, while others may not feel it helped. It has certainly helped many, many people. I thank Odin for my son's therapist weekly. But because someone feels they don't need therapy to handle abuse they suffered, people should be allowed to feel that way. 

 

If I'm putting words in your mouth, GEML, my apologies. It's how I understood what you were saying.

[LilyoftheValley]

Is there absolutely no action that can be taken against Jim Bob and Michelle under our laws? Everything they have done over the past 13 years has been an abomination. They allowed their child abuser son to stay in the house with his victims without any treatment, they conned the American People out of their money with their wedding and baby registries, they tried to push the beliefs of a very dangerous man (Gothard) on to the public at large, they continue to put their young children in danger by allowing them to be around their child abuser brother. This is the short list. I'm sure I could come up with more if I had more time. Is everything they do actually legal?

A lot of states are changing their laws, and at least from a civil perspective, many jurisdictions do not start the statute of limitations until after the victim has turned 18.  I know people hate lawsuits, but I personally think it would be a great thing if people started suing their molesters once they became adults.  So many of these cases are handled like this, or the victim is threatened as a child and never tells anyone.  

 

Fuck all the adults in this situation.  They took something that belonged to the victims - justice - and ripped it away from then to protect their image and reputation.  The people in law enforcement who dealt with this need to be publicly named and shamed.  Those people are there to protect the girls, not the parents and Josh.  They are clearly unprofessional and not fit for their jobs and so they really need to be named and fired.  

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't think the political establishment knew it at that time, but something made Jim Bob very unappealing to the party.  He just didn't get support.  It makes me wonder what it was that made him so unappealing at that time.

 

There's an easy non-Josh related answer to that.

 

JimBob is an arrogant wackadoo. Seriously, even people in Arkansas, Mike Huckabee excluded, aren't complete idiots. JimBob is religious sure, that's a plus in the South but Jimbob takes it to a crazy level. He has no politics but religious issues and he thinks he's right all of the time. He has nothing to say about anything if its not religious or about breeding babies, and the whole quiverfull thing isn't that fondly regarded. He'd be a mess in higher office.

Edited May 23, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[mynextmistake]

A lot of states are changing their laws, and at least from a civil perspective, many jurisdictions do not start the statute of limitations until after the victim has turned 18.  I know people hate lawsuits, but I personally think it would be a great thing if people started suing their molesters once they became adults.  So many of these cases are handled like this, or the victim is threatened as a child and never tells anyone.  

 

Fuck all the adults in this situation.  They took something that belonged to the victims - justice - and ripped it away from then to protect their image and reputation.  The people in law enforcement who dealt with this need to be publicly named and shamed.  Those people are there to protect the girls, not the parents and Josh.  They are clearly unprofessional and not fit for their jobs and so they really need to be named and fired.

The state trooper who initally was consulted clearly did not handle this appropriately at all, but since he was subsequently sent to prison for years for child pornography I think the ship has probably sailed on naming and firing him. To be fair, there is no indication that the subsequent, official investigation by the police was anything other than thorough. The detective interviewed the whole family, wrote a detailed report, and forwarded it with recommendations for charges. It's not his/her fault that the statute of limitations had run. It's not the DA's office's fault either. It sucks, and I wish it had been different, but we can't always blame law enforcement for the fact that sometimes justice isn't done.

[satrunrose]

I see what you're saying, GEML, and I agree that we don't know the inner workings and private conversations of the Duggar home. Some of the girls could very well have moved on without intervention. I even get that some could have found a way to forgive what happened. The problem is, once again the Duggar children are being treated as a boxed set, and not as individuals. My parents both come from big baby-boom families and they and their siblings are as different as chalk and cheese, yet in the Duggar household the whole family has been able to process and move on in exactly the same way and arrived at the same point of Christian forgiveness. Sorry, I don't buy it. If there was ever a time to look at these precious human beings as individuals with unique needs, not just a number on "how much God loves us" score board, it's now. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by satrunrose

[GEML]

Nobody is demanding anyone forgive anyone. But a lot of people aren't cut out for therapy, just as many alcoholics are not cut out for AA. That doesn't mean AA isn't a good program, or therapy isn't helpful, just that these are not the only roads to reaching the other side as a whole and functioning person.

(Smile) and we do give out too many antibiotics, and there is such a thing as elective surgery, so those two would only price my point.

The young women involved should do what THEY need to do - not what we have done or what we think they should do to make US feel better. And if it doesn't fit into our range or acceptable ideas, that's our problem.

[JoanArc]

I don't think conversions that may or may not have happened are the gonna be the key to helping Josh's victims live a better life. Some external to the family help is clearly warranted. In whatever form. Just my opinion. :)

[Guest]

Josh cancels his speaking engagement at a home-schooling conference next weekend. Here's the kicker:

 

We're also told convention organizers are commending Josh and his parents, saying they've handled the matter well and it all reflects back on Christ.

I'd type a reponse but my head has exploded and I have to clean up the carpet.

[merylinkid]

 

 

QUOTE

We're also told convention organizers are commending Josh and his parents, saying they've handled the matter well and it all reflects back on Christ.

I'd type a reponse but my head has exploded and I have to clean up the carpet.

 

Just.  I.  No. Words.   Really.   How can ANYONE in this day and age say "hey cool, you swept a serious problem under the rug and acted like all was great" is good parenting.    And that God would like it.   I know we can't speak for God.   But any higher power I personally believe in would totally not be cool with checked out parents who were too busy famestrumpeting and popping out babies to take care of a very real, serious problem in their own home.   

 

I seriously have to wonder if JB knew the state trooper would overlook the serious nature of the situation and that is why he went to that particular guy.

Edited May 23, 2015 by merylinkid

[Fuzzysox]

If this was in 2002 it was the same year Josh first got caught touching one of the girls.  I don't think the political establishment knew it at that time, but something made Jim Bob very unappealing to the party.  He just didn't get support.  It makes me wonder what it was that made him so unappealing at that time.  And mind you, he spent reportedly $200k to $250k of his own money on this campaign, which would be better used to provide appropriate housing and psychological counseling to his kids.  

Update on the daughter who lived in a pop up tent in the woods with 7 kids, that Keller daughter now has 9 kids and lives in Africa with her husband who has made about 3 converts in a year.

Despite Kate's horrible behavior on Kate + 8 she is back on tv again with the kids.

Fixed it for ya. :)

[Micks Picks]

fuzzy sox thank you very much.

[LilyoftheValley]

Josh's statement:

 

'Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption.'

 

 

Note he starts with what he thinks is the most important thing for people to know, and to him it is that this happened a long time ago when he was a teenager.  He could have started his statement with anything, but he chose this.  "I hurt others" is pretty ambiguous, and he still has not admitted to what he did, as is "acted inexcusably".  Then he says he "confessed" his "wrondoing".  Now we know that here he must mean like a religious confession, because one of his sister's told on him, so it is not that he had a pang of guilt and went and told on himself.  He goes on: "my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling."  Note the word order here; he comes first.  "I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life."  It has already been said, but here it is again: Josh is only concerned with his life being ruined.  But something else in this sentence stood out to me.  He only says he "understood" all this.  If we removed the "I understood that" part of the sentence then it would be much more powerful.  To me, the "I understood" is a sign that he did not truly believe that his life would ever be ruined by any of this, whether he continued on with it or not (goes perfectly with his smugness). "In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption."   This sentence is general and does outright deny that he is no longer the person he once was.  

 

Something that sticks out to me in this statement is that he never once admits to what he did.  If he was truly contrite, then he would use the word "molested".  He could be talking about pretty much anything here.  He never says he actually took any steps himself, only that his parents arranged for that to happen.  He also does not say he actually got the forgiveness that he asked for, probably because deep down he knew that his sisters were not sincere in their forced act of forgiveness.  This whole statement is full of weasel-words and statements that have almost no meaning upon further analysis.  He does not say what he did, nor what he did to get better, or that he ever even changed at all.  This statement is cagey and decepted, and word order shows that his priority is on himself and not his victims.  

[Saylii]

From the blog comment back in 2007, Jim Bon paraded Josh around the home-church to make him confess. Alice had all the other details correct, so I have no reason to doubt her. Josh also had to confess to the church elders, which is speculated to have included Pa Keller, Gil Bates, and of course Gothard.

[Chicklet]

Well with Ireland voting to allow SSM, the Gothard and FRC people have a lot to distract them from the "misadventures" of Josh Duggar. 

Or maybe it's a sign.

[CherryMalotte]

We're also told convention organizers are commending Josh and his parents, saying they've handled the matter well and it all reflects back on Christ.

 

I'd type a reponse but my head has exploded and I have to clean up the carpet.

 

Uh yeah, pass me the bleach when you are done.  I'll let you use my ladder to get the bits off the ceiling.  

 

I'm not in any way shape or form religious but I pray to God, Buddah, whatever higher power there is that some of these girls get away...middle of the night creep out to one of the vehicles, and just leave.  And take as many of their sisters as they can.     

[NikSac]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. I didn't see it when I clicked the link.

 

I think if you click the mobile link (the one starting m.facebook) from a computer it won't work. I tried it and I too thought the post was removed. Or maybe it's a combination of the m. link and Firefox?  I don't know.  I logged into Facebook directly and looked up her name, and saw the post was still there. So I think it's just a technical thing.  It's just her sharing a link to Huckabee's post from yesterday, followed by a heart icon (or are they called emojis these days?)

[Cherrio]

Nobody is demanding anyone forgive anyone. But a lot of people aren't cut out for therapy, just as many alcoholics are not cut out for AA. That doesn't mean AA isn't a good program, or therapy isn't helpful, just that these are not the only roads to reaching the other side as a whole and functioning person.

(Smile) and we do give out too many antibiotics, and there is such a thing as elective surgery, so those two would only price my point.

The young women involved should do what THEY need to do - not what we have done or what we think they should do to make US feel better. And if it doesn't fit into our range or acceptable ideas, that's our problem.

I think most people's concern here is that the children in the Duggar family have absolutely no idea what real help is whether they want it or not. 

           If they know anything at this point, its probably that its evil or whatever those ignorant parents told them.