Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I wonder just how long JD hasn't liked Josh?   Jana and JD are twins and it's becoming more apparent as they are adults that they actually do have a special bond.  If that bond is longstanding Josh would have known that.   If JD didn't idolize Josh as a  model big brother Josh would have known that, too.   It's entirely possible that Josh didn't select Jana because he was aware she had a protector who would possibly retaliate against Josh.   

Predators are masters at observing details about others in order to successfully achieve the satisfaction of their drive without being caught.   That drive consumes much of their lives and they meticulously attend to every detail to obtain what they desire.

JD stated shortly after Scandal #2, that his feelings about Josh changed then. Something to the effect of, "I always looked up to Josh. I always wanted to be like him. Over the course of the last few weeks, my feelings have changed and I no longer look up to him".

Edited May 28, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not defending JB & M...

While parents always have some influence in determining what kind of adults their children will be, its obviously only a part of forming a person. And I think its unfair to disregard intention. There are plenty of parents who intentionally steer their kids down hateful and sometimes criminal paths. There are way more parents who just screw up.

There's no where in my mind that JB & M intentionally contributed to the monster Josh is. I do believe their crappy parenting did unknowingly enable an already creep of a son.

 

Amongst the many, many eyebrows I raise at JB & M surrounding their intentional choices regarding lifestyle and raising their children under this cult, complete mishandling of Josh's youthful offenses and the harm they increased by how they addressed things with their daughters I do have another one raised regarding the potential they turned up the heat and the risk by grotesquely meting out punishments surrounding normal phases of development -- such as parading around one of the boys in front of people with his hands tied together as a punishment for masturbation.   That is unhealthy on so many levels and potentially very destructive on many fronts.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

JD stated shortly after Scandal #2, that he feelings about Josh changed then. Something to the effect of, "I always looked up to Josh. I always wanted to be like him. Over the course of the last few weeks, my feelings have changed and I no longer look up to him".

Interesting, but still doesn't rule out the possibility Josh weighed JD's admiration of himself versus JD's bond with Jana and realized that the potential of JD defending Jana made her a riskier target than the others.   It's very well known predators target those they feel are defenseless, won't be believed, etc.   Jana having a built in male ally may have made her inherently more risky to victimize. 

[madpsych78]

Naw, I still maintain that Josh left Jana alone because she was too old. I don't think JD had anything to do with it.

[Normades]

33 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Amongst the many, many eyebrows I raise at JB & M surrounding their intentional choices regarding lifestyle and raising their children under this cult, complete mishandling of Josh's youthful offenses and the harm they increased by how they addressed things with their daughters I do have another one raised regarding the potential they turned up the heat and the risk by grotesquely meting out punishments surrounding normal phases of development -- such as parading around one of the boys in front of people with his hands tied together as a punishment for masturbation.   That is unhealthy on so many levels and potentially very destructive on many fronts.

Also their choice of living in a small home with too many children while they were busily making more children (I can't imagine there was lots of privacy), posting Michelle's cycle so that it was common knowledge, and flaunting their physical relationship in front of their pubescent kids (we can do this, but you can't) definitely makes them complicit in my mind.  They weren't raised in a cult and they had enough outside exposure to know it was not right.  Maybe being quiverfull was not an intentional contribution, but throwing their physical relationship in their kids face was intentional. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not defending JB & M...

While parents always have some influence in determining what kind of adults their children will be, its obviously only a part of forming a person. And I think its unfair to disregard intention. There are plenty of parents who intentionally steer their kids down hateful and sometimes criminal paths. There are way more parents who just screw up.

There's no where in my mind that JB & M intentionally contributed to the monster Josh is. I do believe their crappy parenting did unknowingly enable an already creep of a son.

 

I think the fundie (and Gothard-enhanced) worldview of JB and M and their group has always aimed at creating a world that exists solely so that a bunch of patriarchs can get what they want at everybody else's expense. And to me that's an evil intent! 

Now, do I think that JB would ever allow himself to imagine that his intentions, his selfishness, his arrogance are wrong? Absolutely not.

I'm sure he believes he's virtuous and is always seeking the stuff that god wants....However, in my opinion these guys created god in their own image and sustain that creation with everything they've got in order to keep getting what they want! And....again....down underneath what I see as their denial, there's what to me is an evil super-selfish intent that overlooks the full humanity (and the rights thereof) of even their children! 

Now we all deny stuff and want to have things are own way (at others' expense, if it comes to that). But most of us don't seek to create a world for others and ourselves that's quite so extreme. These particular people do create something very extreme. 

For all those reasons, it's hard to say how much accountability somebody has when their denial leads them (unwittingly in a way) to create and sustain situations that may be really bad for other people, while (seemingly, anyway) good for themselves.

But I think we have to believe that we're all accountable to some degree for beliefs that we hold and act on for years when they're damaging for other people. To just go blindly on with our denial that anything could be wrong about our belief system does, at the very least, fly in the face of Christianity's supposed revered commandment -- "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." or "Love your neighbor as yourself." 

If you're an adult but you never ever examine whether your beliefs and behavior might be harming other people or harming the community because you're just thrilled that those beliefs and behavior are "working great for MEEEE!" then you should have some accountability.

I don't know how much it can be or how we can manage to get us all held responsible for things like that....But I think of this principle -- "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." .... And I think willful ignorance of bad consequences for others that may arise from one's principles should not be an excuse.

We should probably be able to expect that adults will examine themselves at times to see if they're missing something. So that's what I would expect JB and M to do -- but it's clear that they never did. And they're not brain dead. They have the normal amount of brains. So they owed to their kids and to other people to look more closely at what was going on.

Signs of problems were there, and they repeatedly just swept them under the rug and continued spouting and practicing the exact same stuff -- except for bans on hide and seek and so on -- without ever questioning whether their underlying principles and ideas were actually making things go wrong in some ways. I mean, two adults should question themselves when the mother freaks out because of her large number of children when "she doesn't have a heart for children" but some set of principles that's good for Dad (and Mom) in other ways says -- "Have a whole ton more!" But, no, it seems likely they didn't ask themselves many searching questions about that sequence of events. And they coulda. 

I think we can at least say that they were wrong to the extent that they didn't seem to question any of that -- because it was working well for JB and M. 

Josh and the others are their children, after all. And JB and M were raised in fairly normal-looking circumstances, were sent to school, appear to have an average amount of brain power -- so there was never a bar to them asking a few more questions of themselves. (and we know they never have because they've just spouted the exact same shit over and over and over and over again and "taught" their kids to spout it, too)

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Churchhoney

[dariafan]

I bet no one wanted to sit by either jb or Michelle riding the bus.  So they told their kids horror stories.  Cause the only reason to “ fear “ the bus would be if you have watched “license to drive “ as many times as I have ( quit judging me it was the early 90s).  Or you have shit bag parents telling you half truths 

[Natalie68]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

Also their choice of living in a small home with too many children while they were busily making more children (I can't imagine there was lots of privacy), posting Michelle's cycle so that it was common knowledge, and flaunting their physical relationship in front of their pubescent kids (we can do this, but you can't) definitely makes them complicit in my mind.  They weren't raised in a cult and they had enough outside exposure to know it was not right.  Maybe being quiverfull was not an intentional contribution, but throwing their physical relationship in their kids face was intentional. 

I have a feeling one day the psychopathy of this family will be studied.  I think that Josh may have learned his type of abuse from someone else.  The effects of rabid procreation with little means (to be spent on kids), little space, kids not spending any time around non fundy kids and the seemingly rampant sexual abuse in this particular cult.  The parental hyper sexuality and the kids participating in the tracking of M's cycle, it is all so icky.  There was too much familial knowledge about those two having sex that it seems like it could have left a mark.   I don't know what I am really trying to say but hindsight?  This family is way fucked up and has been normalized and celebrated for far too long.  

[JoanArc]

 Everyone forgets about the yelling. Jim Bob freely admitted to having an anger issue in the books, and the girls were supposed to remind him to stop when he got angry.  Michelle admitted to yelling a lot before getting the baby voice affect. SOMETHING helped produce Josh, and turn to Janna for spirited extrovert to quiet introvert who only spoke to her parents. 

 Michelle and Jim Bob were young, didn’t have a lot of money, and the kids are starting to pile up. Even though Josh got the experience of a mother that was devoted to him, and a semi-normal early school experience, he was also exposed to a lot of potential anger.    I’m sure there were a lot of fights between Jim Bob and Michelle, and I have to wonder if anything was taken out on any of the children. He also saw his parents convert, and become two-faced people themselves. Basically showing him it was OK to have a godly face, and then ruthlessly pursue your own interests and glorification behind the scenes. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by JoanArc

[Natalie68]

2 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 Everyone forgets about the yelling. Jim Bob freely admitted to having an anger issue in the books, and the girls were supposed to remind him to stop when he got angry.  Michelle admitted to yelling a lot before getting the baby voice affect. SOMETHING helped produce Josh, and turn to Jannah for men spirited extrovert to quiet introvert who only spoke to her parents. 

 Michelle and Jim Bob were young, didn’t have a lot of money, and the kids are starting to pile up. Even though Josh got the experience of a mother that was devoted to him, and a semi-normal early school experience, he was also exposed to a lot of potential anger.    I’m sure there were a lot of fights between Jim Bob and Michelle, and I have to wonder if anything was taken out on any of the children. He also saw his parents convert, and become two-faced people themselves. Basically showing him it was OK to have a godly face, and then ruthlessly pursue your own interests and glorification behind the scenes. 

I did forget about the anger.  Yeah, someone needs to do an indepth study of this type of family.  

[auntieminem]

Interesting discussions.  Yesterday I watched Dr. Phil (don't judge me well at least not based on that lol) because the show was about a woman whose husband turned out to be a child rapist and there was another story (follow-up) about a mother whose oldest son became a sexual predator when he became and adolescent. The first woman had been married to the "perfect husband" for 10 years and had 2 kids with him. She found out when the police raided her house and arrested him. He of course was saying he was innocent and she had no indication of his predatory behavior; but when the police showed her evidence (her husband would take videos of sex with minors or stalking a woman with children) she immediately believed and cut him out of her and their children's life. He is still in prison and she has remarried. Not the Anna response.  The mother was the one who first recognized her son's inappropriate behavior and tried to get him help, the son also admitted to his feeling and behaviors. He went to treatment centers would would not work on his issues so kept going back to his parents who eventually had him arrested for assaulting his sibling. Now in prison in a program for sex offenders, he is truly mentally ill. This mother was so broken did try everything to help him but know he is not safe so will never come home. 

Anyhow, this made me think of the responses of Anna and JB & Michelle. The disbelief initially is understandable but the wife and the mother did make efforts to protect their kids and others from these offenders.  Things could have been different had Michelle and JB had really tried to do more than pray and punish and made the girls forgive him. Or maybe like the son on Dr. P he was not salvageable; if so they could have at least mitigated the damage somewhat and if he was salvageable they denied him the chance. Anna chose him over her kids and continues to do so. 

OK, now I won't need to watch Dr. Phil again, the topic caught my eye and I was curious about the reactions and responses of the wife and the mother as it was so timely to Josh. I was surprised DP didn't try to relate it but I imagine it was filmed before all this. 

 

[GeeGolly]

Nature vs nurture, intent vs ignorance, birth order, sex, subsystems, resilience and perception are only a few of the ways the family environment effect dynamics and outcome. The Duggars are a perfect family to study due to a number of factors, including family size, belief system and of course Josh. As much as JB & M wanted to churn out stolid soldiers for God, they ended up with 19 different kids.

[libgirl2]

16 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

Interesting discussions.  Yesterday I watched Dr. Phil (don't judge me well at least not based on that lol) because the show was about a woman whose husband turned out to be a child rapist and there was another story (follow-up) about a mother whose oldest son became a sexual predator when he became and adolescent. The first woman had been married to the "perfect husband" for 10 years and had 2 kids with him. She found out when the police raided her house and arrested him. He of course was saying he was innocent and she had no indication of his predatory behavior; but when the police showed her evidence (her husband would take videos of sex with minors or stalking a woman with children) she immediately believed and cut him out of her and their children's life. He is still in prison and she has remarried. Not the Anna response.  The mother was the one who first recognized her son's inappropriate behavior and tried to get him help, the son also admitted to his feeling and behaviors. He went to treatment centers would would not work on his issues so kept going back to his parents who eventually had him arrested for assaulting his sibling. Now in prison in a program for sex offenders, he is truly mentally ill. This mother was so broken did try everything to help him but know he is not safe so will never come home. 

Anyhow, this made me think of the responses of Anna and JB & Michelle. The disbelief initially is understandable but the wife and the mother did make efforts to protect their kids and others from these offenders.  Things could have been different had Michelle and JB had really tried to do more than pray and punish and made the girls forgive him. Or maybe like the son on Dr. P he was not salvageable; if so they could have at least mitigated the damage somewhat and if he was salvageable they denied him the chance. Anna chose him over her kids and continues to do so. 

OK, now I won't need to watch Dr. Phil again, the topic caught my eye and I was curious about the reactions and responses of the wife and the mother as it was so timely to Josh. I was surprised DP didn't try to relate it but I imagine it was filmed before all this. 

 

There are people who just can't be fixed. 

[emmawoodhouse]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

There are people who just can't be fixed. 

Smuggar had a chance to at least TRY when he was 15, but he was sent off to build a structure for Gothard instead. Who knows if he would have been " fixed" then, but his parents never gave him a chance to even try. 

[CalicoKitty]

6 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Smuggar had a chance to at least TRY when he was 15, but he was sent off to build a structure for Gothard instead. Who knows if he would have been " fixed" then, but his parents never gave him a chance to even try. 

You always want to believe that parents are doing the best they can for their kids.  Even it if is not perfect or even not great, you could live with "they are doing their absolute best".  This is a case of not doing their best for their child.  As you said, they never even gave him a chance to try.  The cult mentality is a very scary thing.

[Cinnabon]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I also think he doesn't believe in God/Jesus and just goes through the motions. I'll go out on a limb of speculation here: I think he may have had doubts about the whole religion thing as a kid when he saw his parents become born-again, Bible-pounding, converts to the fundie/IBLP/Gothard belief system. He knew enough to keep his mouth shut about any doubts, and he was probably bright enough to know how to parrot back what his parents wanted to hear. He may have thus discovered that he could please and influence his parents by spouting the right religious stuff while keeping to himself that he thought it was all BS. And from that he went on to glory in his "appointed child of destiny" role bestowed on him by his parents and later on members of his church. 

I think he's weak enough not to have seriously considered just bolting out of his family as a young adult, because he was the favored child. He was hauled around the State Capitol by his dad, got to work on a Senate campaign (Jim Holt), became a teevee star, and everything. And I think that all the time he was running a con on the world, enjoying the perks and power and celebrity and comfort of his life as the Duggar crown prince. Sure, there were setbacks but overall he felt secure that he was something special, and that he knew how to talk the talk the fundies wanted to hear. 

As I said, I'm out on a limb here, and we all know how insecure a position that is. I suppose it's always possible that he has a sincere belief that Jesus came to wash away the sins of the world and put male persons of his race/nationality in charge of this world in all things social, economic, political, and religious. But I think he's a sociopath who believes in nothing except winning whatever game he's running at the time. And he's been that way for a long long time.

I agree and think that’s why JB was in such a huge hurry to marry him off. A few more years at home and he may well have bolted and looked for a different life. 

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

I have a feeling one day the psychopathy of this family will be studied.  I think that Josh may have learned his type of abuse from someone else.  The effects of rabid procreation with little means (to be spent on kids), little space, kids not spending any time around non fundy kids and the seemingly rampant sexual abuse in this particular cult.  The parental hyper sexuality and the kids participating in the tracking of M's cycle, it is all so icky.  There was too much familial knowledge about those two having sex that it seems like it could have left a mark.   I don't know what I am really trying to say but hindsight?  This family is way fucked up and has been normalized and celebrated for far too long.  

And this is why all of their tv shows need to be canceled immediately and forever. 

[JoanArc]

 Another thing I’d point out. You can get more than sex videos on the dark web. I would be surprised if he’s been doing some kind of drug for a while. Like at least since DC. There are thousands of ways to use bitcoin to get anything, narcs, benzos, week, amphetamines, antidepressants, etc.  So his thought processes may not have been clear for quite some time. 

 Someone showed the video that Jessa shot last Christmas On Reddit. Josh barrels in with a drunken stagger, and everyone looks horrified. I feel like alcohol would be kind of hard to hide the scent, but pretty much any other kind of pills or what not could be easily hidden from Anna and still enjoyed.

[mittsigirl]

23 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Another example of his sadism and depravity.

I would much rather be the Mother of a special needs child that be the Mother of pervy Josh, 1000 times over.

[Spazamanaz]

Just now, mittsigirl said:

I would much rather be the Mother of a special needs child that be the Mother of pervy Josh, 1000 times over.

You can't even compare the two! One is born with physical or developmental  disabilites, and the other has a sick twisted, evil mind. Not even in the same ballpark. 

 

[auntieminem]

5 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 

Someone showed the video that Jessa shot last Christmas On Reddit. Josh barrels in with a drunken stagger, and everyone looks horrified. I feel like alcohol would be kind of hard to hide the scent, but pretty much any other kind of pills or what not could be easily hidden from Anna and still enjoyed.

I have recalled that snippet as well, mostly because there he was with his phone, I assume, videoing while rushing past Jessa grinning and yapping.

[Zella]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I feel like alcohol would be kind of hard to hide the scent

Vodka would be his friend! 

[mittsigirl]

9 hours ago, Normades said:

Also their choice of living in a small home with too many children while they were busily making more children (I can't imagine there was lots of privacy), posting Michelle's cycle so that it was common knowledge, and flaunting their physical relationship in front of their pubescent kids (we can do this, but you can't) definitely makes them complicit in my mind.  They weren't raised in a cult and they had enough outside exposure to know it was not right.  Maybe being quiverfull was not an intentional contribution, but throwing their physical relationship in their kids face was intentional. 

It began to sicken me the way JB and Michelle would constantly do their PDA's in front of the kids, then tell them that they could act that way but the kids couldn't! What kind of parents act like that, say things like that, to their own kids?? To me, it seemed like they were just taunting those kids by behaving that way! Then punishing any of their kids who were found to be masturbating by tying their hands together and marching them around in public that way! I don't know if the 'public' consisted of only family members, or if this was done in front of the church members. Either way, being punished for doing something that becomes natural with getting older is just plain sick! I bet that JB did his fair share-if not even more than the usual amount, being the creep that he is-of masturbating, because he was acting like any NORMAL teenager, then when his own kids do it, then all of a sudden it is from Satan and wrong! It was okay for him to grow up normal as a teen, but not his own kids! My parents were very young when I was born and became the oldest of 6 kids, and they never kept their love secreted away from us, but they sure never acted like the Duggar parents act in front of us, then tell us that we can't act the same way with our boyfriends/girlfriends. I am pretty sure my Mom knew that it was me who found her vibrator and burned it out from over-using it, but she never once doled out any punishment over it because I was just a normal maturing, curious teenage girl! Double standards just don't seem fair or normal, except in the Duggar cult. Do as I say, not as I do, only works for so long.

[Nysha]

12 hours ago, merylinkid said:

This is more likely than "he is angry because his life sucked."    Claiming he was angry places the blame on others -- Ma and Pa Grifters, his siblings for being born, etc.   It excuses him.  

Nah, he CHOSE to do these things.   It's nobody else's fault but his own.

I am in no way excusing Sex Pest because his life sucked. I was giving my theory that his anger at having an abnormal life with 18 siblings and 6 1/2 offspring has contributed to his choice of pornography. While I think JB & Mich are a major factor causing his development into sociopathy, the scumbag is 100% responsible for every vile thing he has done since childhood. They also set his siblings and others up to endure his abuse by the way they raised him.

This is also how I feel about Jessa's seemly dissatisfaction with her life as a quiverfull mother. JB & Mich raised her to think this was all she was allowed to do because she had a working uterus and gave her a childhood devoid of learning and curiosity. However, Jessa (and Ben) are completely responsible for having 4 kids in 5 years, living in a tiny house, stunting their children, and being tied financially to JB and his lifestyle requirements.

[Scout Finch]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:26 PM, emmawoodhouse said:

Smuggar had a chance to at least TRY when he was 15, but he was sent off to build a structure for Gothard instead. Who knows if he would have been " fixed" then, but his parents never gave him a chance to even try. 

In the "I Pray You Lay This Journal Down" (the stern warning in his teenage journal to not invade his privacy!) podcast Justin adds a lot of details and context to that punishment. Josh worked alone, for several weeks, digging sludge out of the pond with just a shovel, and was completely shunned during that time. The person whose property it was would basically put a plate of food down for him, not say anything, and walk away. Justin thinks Josh was staying in a shack or a tent. He said Jim Bob and John David went out there a few times but that was the extent. Josh's head was completely shaven as part of the penance. The goal was "brokenness," pushing him down to the bottom rung of self-esteem. Each Sunday in church, the guy where Josh was at would give a report about Josh's progress. In the beginning, Justin didn't know about the molestation. It was presented in church as just something to do with sex. Regardless of the particulars, everything was considered to be at an equal level of severe sin. Not excusing Josh's actions but Justin explains just how warped and damaging the environment in the church was and the impact that it would have had. The details about the pond punishment and how completely screwed up everyone was by being raised in that church starts at 01:28:10. Also, about the Duggars still being filmed during that time and how they covered for Josh's punishment and absence.

Each of the five episodes are fascinating--if not a bit horrifying--about what Justin went through while growing up in that environment. Only about a third of it involves the Duggars, although the amusing entries in episode 4 from his teenage journal about how he's convinced he's going to marry Jana takes some of the focus off the dark side! Years later, he's still working through the damage from growing up in the fundie world, as is his wife, who also grew up similarly. 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Scout Finch
ETA: Jeeves has clarified that this punishment wasn't to do with the molestation of his sisters.

[Temperance]

On 5/28/2021 at 5:46 PM, Cinnabon said:

And this is why all of their tv shows need to be canceled immediately and forever. 

Yes  but the television show and the footage should be preserved so that people can use it for their studies of the family. It would be easier to lie about them with all the footage destroyed.

[floridamom]

Regardless of the head shaving and ditch digging, this was not the punishment/treamtment Josh needed at that time. It didn't do a blessed thing to 'rehabilitate' him now, did it?

Sad that his parents didn't give him what he needed. They, IMO, were so "God-focused" and child bearing obsessed that they ignored the children they had. Those two have no idea what being parents mean....and still don't today.

[Minivanessa]

13 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

In the "I Pray You Lay This Journal Down" (the stern warning in his teenage journal to not invade his privacy!) podcast Justin adds a lot of details and context to that punishment. Josh worked alone, for several weeks, digging sludge out of the pond with just a shovel, and was completely shunned during that time. The person whose property it was would basically put a plate of food down for him, not say anything, and walk away. Justin thinks Josh was staying in a shack or a tent. He said Jim Bob and John David went out there a few times but that was the extent. Josh's head was completely shaven as part of the penance. The goal was "brokenness," pushing him down to the bottom rung of self-esteem. Each Sunday in church, the guy where Josh was at would give a report about Josh's progress. In the beginning, Justin didn't know about the molestation. It was presented in church as just something to do with sex. Regardless of the particulars, everything was considered to be at an equal level of severe sin. Not excusing Josh's actions but Justin explains just how warped and damaging the environment in the church was and the impact that it would have had. The details about the pond punishment and how completely screwed up everyone was by being raised in that church starts at 01:28:10. Also, about the Duggars still being filmed during that time and how they covered for Josh's punishment and absence.

I also listened to that podcast and posted about it above. The incident for which Josh was sent to dig the pond, wasn't his molestation of little girls. It was that he was found to have viewed porn on the campaign computers after Jim Holt lost his campaign for US Senator. Justin said that Holt was upset and devastated to have lost. Then somewhat coincidentally, Holt learned that Josh had viewed porn on campaign computers. So, Holt jumped to the conclusion that Josh had brought "sin into the camp" and that was the reason Holt lost the election. (Not, as Justin said, that it could have been because Holt was a sh*tty candidate, lol.) BTW, Justin didn't elaborate but he did say that his understanding was that Josh's porn viewing had been exposed by a comment by a little kid (maybe one of Holt's kids), who just laughingly said, "Oh, Joshie was looking at nekkid people," not understanding what s/he had glimpsed. 

As has been mentioned in this discussion, by the time this happened, Josh's molestations had come to light and he had been sent to Little Rock or somewhere to work on a Bill Gothard building project and apparently that would be Godly enough an activity to redeem him. That was all over and in the past. Justin said in the podcast that he (Justin) wasn't aware of that bit of history at the time he witnessed the porn revelation and pond punishment. 

Then when he's found looking at porn, as a teenaged boy, he was issued this absolutely Gothic tortuous punishment out of all proportion to the nature of the "offense." Of course, he was brought home and cleaned up for each of the days when TLC was shooting the next family special, then returned to the pond hell.

What a mess.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Jeeves

[Albanyguy]

6 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Then when he's found looking at porn, as a teenaged boy, he was issued this absolutely Gothic tortuous punishment out of all proportion to the nature of the "offense."

On his own, I doubt if Jim Bob would have inflicted this punishment on Josh, if only because it coincided with TLC filming his family and he wouldn't want the producers to get wind of it. I suspect that he only agreed to a punishment this extreme because he was anxious to placate Holt and keep him quiet.

[Zella]

57 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

he did say that his understanding was that Josh's porn viewing had been exposed by a comment by a little kid (maybe one of Holt's kids), who just laughingly said, "Oh, Joshie was looking at nekkid people," not understanding what s/he had glimpsed. 

Oh that actually explains something I'd been a little confounded by--why the campaign didn't respond more forcefully when Josh was caught. Sounds like it was because he wasn't actually caught by campaign staff. 

[3 is enough]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the punishment for looking at (presumably adult) porn was so much more severe than the one for MOLESTING HIS SISTERS.

These people are sick and have a really warped sense of priorities.  That is all.

[GeeGolly]

I thought Michelle said Josh was also being "mentored" during his hard labor stint with a Gothardite. So the punishments may not have been measured by the hard labor/shunning, alone.

I'm not saying either punishment was suitable, just sharing my interpretation.

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought Michelle said Josh was also being "mentored" during his hard labor stint with a Gothardite.

They did say that, but they also have said so many other things about that time period that were blatant lies that I tend to side-eye any of their claims/assertions about it. What's that old saying about knowing someone's lying because their mouth is moving? I sort of feel like that whenever Michelle or Jim Bob open their maws about this. 

[BigBingerBro]

Both MeShell and Boob are masters at manipulating the truth to serve whatever topic they want.  Twisting facts and omitting certain key facts allows them to actually  be making true statements, but the actual overall messages come out as blatant lies.

The shit will catch up with them.  It already is.

[Scarlett45]

Mod Announcement:

 

The Holt campaign is of limited topic in this forum. Discussion is allowed because it has been mentioned on the show in previous seasons and specials.

I understand in light of the recent charges there is renewed discussion in Josh’s actions as a minor- which is fine and expected, but let’s keep the thread on topic of Josh/Anna, their family. 
 

If you have greater theories about the Duggars/their friends/religious practices please consider whether your post is better suited to JB & Michelle/Sweet Fellowship/Gimmie Old Time Religion/ Small Talk.

Political theory and strategy is not an appropriate discussion topic of this forum- even in jest.

 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

They did say that, but they also have said so many other things about that time period that were blatant lies that I tend to side-eye any of their claims/assertions about it. What's that old saying about knowing someone's lying because their mouth is moving? I sort of feel like that whenever Michelle or Jim Bob open their maws about this. 

I agree, but I believe she also said this to the cops who interviewed the family. I can't remember what or why, but something lead me to believe Michelle was honest and forthcoming with them.

[drafan]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:45 PM, auntieminem said:

I have recalled that snippet as well, mostly because there he was with his phone, I assume, videoing while rushing past Jessa grinning and yapping.

He was probably having phone sex with a hooker, and had to get to one of his hiding places ASAP.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the punishment for looking at (presumably adult) porn was so much more severe than the one for MOLESTING HIS SISTERS.

These people are sick and have a really warped sense of priorities.  That is all.

Exactly. Looking at adult porn as a teen boy is completely normal. They punished him for that instead of his many wrongs. 

[Scout Finch]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I also listened to that podcast and posted about it above. The incident for which Josh was sent to dig the pond, wasn't his molestation of little girls. It was that he was found to have viewed porn on the campaign computers after Jim Holt lost his campaign for US Senator. Justin said that Holt was upset and devastated to have lost. Then somewhat coincidentally, Holt learned that Josh had viewed porn on campaign computers. So, Holt jumped to the conclusion that Josh had brought "sin into the camp" and that was the reason Holt lost the election. (Not, as Justin said, that it could have been because Holt was a sh*tty candidate, lol.) BTW, Justin didn't elaborate but he did say that his understanding was that Josh's porn viewing had been exposed by a comment by a little kid (maybe one of Holt's kids), who just laughingly said, "Oh, Joshie was looking at nekkid people," not understanding what s/he had glimpsed. 

As has been mentioned in this discussion, by the time this happened, Josh's molestations had come to light and he had been sent to Little Rock or somewhere to work on a Bill Gothard building project and apparently that would be Godly enough an activity to redeem him. That was all over and in the past. Justin said in the podcast that he (Justin) wasn't aware of that bit of history at the time he witnessed the porn revelation and pond punishment. 

Then when he's found looking at porn, as a teenaged boy, he was issued this absolutely Gothic tortuous punishment out of all proportion to the nature of the "offense." Of course, he was brought home and cleaned up for each of the days when TLC was shooting the next family special, then returned to the pond hell.

What a mess.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize he was "rehabilitated" twice with property upkeep projects. I think the pond project was on the property of another church member who had confessed to sex sins. Justin got so choked up about how after learning that Josh had molested his sisters, he saw how nice and supportive they were expected to be and how hard that must have been to act as if nothing horrible had happened to them.

What a massive mess indeed.

[Scout Finch]

Justin said in that circle Josh had an elevated status, like he was the chosen one, and summed it up as basically Josh being considered "God's Employee of the Month." When someone in the comments said that T-shirts with that slogan really need to be made, Justin replied that it wouldn't be him as he did not want to monetize the podcast. He ended it after five episodes since he felt he had fully discussed his journey. But, yeah, I really want to see that on a T-shirt, too!

[BigBingerBro]

Did Justin ever exlpain how they came to start going to the Duggar's "home church" services.  I recall him saying that they started going and that is how he met Josh, but did the parents know each other or something?  What was the connection?

[sue450]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:05 PM, Cinnabon said:

I think you’re absolutely right.

you make good points...michelle had a some what normal life she went to school, was on the gymnastcs team,dated boys,  mowed the front lawn in her bikini......she married jim bob when she was 17 and took birth control pills she had josh went back on the pill and had a very very early  ending of pregnancy..a  religious dr told then it happened because she was on "the pill" they went full on religious after that...................at one point jim bob was running 1999 to 2003 for office and they were living in a little 3 bedroom house from the church   11 kids by 1999 and 14  kids by 2002 in that 3 bedroom house......they literally lived on rice (one of the daughters said at one point)

[sue450]

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly. Looking at adult porn as a teen boy is completely normal. They punished him for that instead of his many wrongs. 

they are told they have no control over their urges but they are not allowed to masterbate/self pleasure  so many things wrong with this cult

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by sue450

[GeeGolly]

12 hours ago, sue450 said:

they are told they have no control over their urges but they are not allowed to masterbate/self pleasure  so many things wrong with this cult

 

Apparently the non-masturbation thing isn't just a Gothard/cult thing. I believe Jeremy did a talk about how sinful it is.

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Apparently the non-masturbation thing isn't just a Gothard/cult thing. I believe Jeremy did a talk about how sinful it is.

You know he doesn’t believe it!

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

You know he doesn’t believe it!

*cue Ben Seewald voice*

"Does anybody here beLIEEEEVe it?!!"

[FizzyPuff]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Apparently the non-masturbation thing isn't just a Gothard/cult thing. I believe Jeremy did a talk about how sinful it is.

Jeremy the hypocrite do as I say, not as I do. 

[riverblue22]

I'm probably late to this conclusion, but I just realized that Josh doesn't believe this religious stuff he has been fed.  He doesn't believe it at all, but he is more than willing to use his religion to control his family and take advantage of the forgiveness offered to him whenever he is led to sin by Satan.  Patriarchy is his friend~

[tabloidlover]

Anyone remember when Anna is due?

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

Anyone remember when Anna is due?

I thought she just said “fall 2021”.