Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[louannems]

I see Anna's copied the Pintristy decor of putting a framed  picture (probably pf Anna and Smugger kissing) on her kitchen counter.

Jessa has lots of pictures on her kitchen counter and it's a tiny area, too.  

All I can think of when I see pics on counters is food splatters during food prep!

Edited February 10, 2018 by louannems

[toodles]

36 minutes ago, louannems said:

 

Jessa has lots of pictures on her kitchen counter and it's a tiny area, too.  

All I can think of when I see pics on counters is food spatters during food prep!

I doubt food splatters are a huge priority for Jessa.

PS-my autocorrect changed Jessa to Jesus.  Twice.

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, lulu69 said:

Radaronline & The Christian Post claim Smuggar and his parents/siblings are simply at RU to eat pizza and say hi. Can't make this shut up ?

Hey fake magazines I love the way you make up fake dates and just get the information from here without paying us or quoting us. We know what day the plane went to R U both times and your dates don’t work. If you want correct information just ask us we don’t bite hard ?

[Mollie]

38 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

Hey fake magazines I love the way you make up fake dates and just get the information from here without paying us or quoting us. We know what day the plane went to R U both times and your dates don’t work. If you want correct information just ask us we don’t bite hard ?

I think those articles were about the visit last August when Josh flew there with Anna, Michelle, Jim Bob, John David, Josiah, Justin and that guy he works with selling used cars.  That trip was for a special event.  The trip on January 6, 2018, was a drop off trip with the plane returning immediately. 

[whydoiwatch]

Anna better straighten up, apparently she isn't satisfying pig JoshUa if he has resorted to behavior necessitating another "rehab" stay.

[PikaScrewChu]

Hey Anna, I can make up statistics too!

The time spent on that sign and standing out on the sidewalk could have helped 43% more people in need than trying to holding up a sign with a bullshit statistic.

Also people standing on sidewalks with signs are 89% more likely to cause disruption to pedestrian traffic with about 61% of them deciding your cause is stupid and you need to get a job.

[Rabbittron]

Do you think that Smuggar plans to get caught so he can get a vacation away from everyone?

[GeeGolly]

On 2/9/2018 at 12:58 PM, jennblevins said:

You wouldn’t think an abortion clinic for panda bears would get a lot of business.  

Maybe a Tweeter could Tweet this link in response to Anna's.

http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/endangered_species/giant_panda/whatyoucando/

[Annb67]

On 2/10/2018 at 4:51 PM, Rabbittron said:

Do you think that Smuggar plans to get caught so he can get a vacation away from everyone?

Probably. Can't blame him...lol

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 2/9/2018 at 11:00 AM, Lunera said:

Anna and some friends spent their day yesterday harassing women outside Planned Parenthood. I doubt those statistics are correct.

You know what makes abortions go down more than people holding signs and praying? Availability of birth control.  

On 2/9/2018 at 3:39 PM, DragonFaerie said:

Gee, Anna, did you dump your 5 kids off for Jana to take care of, while you harass other women?  Women, who would most likely be there to emotionally support you if you kicked your lying, cheating, sex addict husband to the curb?

Is it wrong to wish that Anna would at least start her day off with her husband with a cup of tea?  You know one that she puts some type of supplement in that keeps him from "getting it up"?   - right, off to the prayer closet I go.

Exactly this. Who was taking care of your babies while you were trying to save strangers' "babies," Anna? Maybe not all women have a Jana to watch their kids while they stand on public streets holding panda posters. Maybe not all women have in-laws with the TLC money to feed/clothe/house your five kids and pay for your art supplies so you can make 6th-grade-esque poster art.  Maybe not all women's unfaithful husbands/partners have jobs provided by their daddy (which is especially helpful if he's basically unemployable like Josh). Have you ever thought about that?

Anna, you know nothing about those women's lives.  Go home and play with your paint set while your in-laws pay your bills and your sister-in-law watches your children.  

(I wish I would have been in the area. I'd have popped into PP, picked up a birth control pamphlet, and handed it to Anna. Maybe I'd have drawn a unicorn or koala on it for her, too. If I lived near them, I'd stand out on the road by Anna's house with a painted animal poster that says "Save the Anna from the Joshua."      Okay, I wouldn't really because I have a job and have kids.) 

Any goodwill or feeling of sadness I had for Anna after the scandals is rapidly deteriorating. I know she has these views, but something about these posts is extra irritating. Maybe it's the panda. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Aja]

I love how, when it comes to abortion, that whole clan is suddenly against murder. 

They love guns. LOVE guns. Any kind of gun. They buried their stillborn infant in an ammo box. Despite that ABSOLUTE GENIUS episode of The Simpsons, where Homer goes about trying to prove that guns are useful for way more things than just murder (by shooting the lights instead of turning off the switch, etc), guns are, always have been, and always will be, an object that has one function only--to kill. 

So abortion=murder and it is SO wrong and disgusting and against the laws of God that you have to stand out on the street with a sign and harass innocent people who have done absolutely nothing to you and are probably already having one of the worst days of their lives that is now going to be compounded by your ignorance and shameful, SHAMEFUL lack of morals. Yes? But opening fire on classrooms full of schoolchildren is totally fine because cons-tit-ooo-shin. 

Just fuckin' say it like it is. Don't pretend you're against murdering children. You aren't. You'd be standing on the street in support of gun control if you were. Make a sign that says "Abortion gives women too much control over their own bodies and the men who are in charge of my bullshit religion really fucking hate it." There done sorted.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Aja

[frenchtoast]

Folks, a reminder:

Quote

A reminder that though the Duggars are constantly bringing up politically charged issues, political discussion is not allowed at Previously.tv, unless it directly relates to episode content. It's very tempting to use their constant social media posts as a jumping off point for discussion of our own beliefs, or to bring up what politicians are saying or doing or not doing about an issue, either in seriousness or in jest, but that's against the site rules. Please, resist!

Let's move it back to Josh and Anna, please. Thank you.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Anna is super active on insta this week. 

[GeeGolly]

7 hours ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

Anna is super active on insta this week. 

What's hanging next to him? Maybe one of those ropes to take a walk with multiple children where each holds a ring and a sibling is next to Mason and dragging him around the kitchen?

Just noticed a weird pole or something behind him too. Now I'm all kinds of confused.

[Fosca]

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

[Catfin]

18 minutes ago, Fosca said:

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

Nice find, Fosca! Will they ever kick Josh to the curb? 

[JoanArc]

43 minutes ago, Fosca said:

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

Holy shit, if true this is huge. Like stake-through-the-heart huge. If he's back at RU you know it's because he pulled some shit somewhere. I don't see Josh meeting a 15 year old school girl, when he's more into homeschooling types. If the school knows, even a religious school would have a duty to report it to the authorities.

I'll vote 35% likelihood this is true. Someday it will be 100% true, because you can't keep Josh contained forever.

[Mya]

1 hour ago, Fosca said:

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

I wonder if this is true oh my goodness.  Where is this from?

[Mollie]

16 minutes ago, Mya said:

I wonder if this is true oh my goodness.  Where is this from?

http://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2018/02/blind-item-8_13.html

[Marigold]

I think Mason is in a jumper thingy.  It hangs from a doorway and they jump around/bounce.  Not a fan but that's just me. 

[Zahdii]

Crazy Days and Nights admits they make up a lot of stuff, so chances are Josh hasn't been "dating" a 15 year old public school student.  I don't even know how he would be able to meet one without his minders present, much less be able to be alone with her multiple times over a period of months.  Probably something someone made up in response to the interest in why Josh and some of his family attended an RU meeting recently. 

I'm betting that the Duggars are trying to get him a job as a new counselor there, since they are probably the only place these days that his family would let him work for.  The Duggars are keeping him on a short leash by having him work for his family at home, but if he wants to work for someone else, he'll have to find someone his family would approve of to hire him, and RU only deals with adults.  Josh could simply reject his parental oversight and strike out on his own, but I don't think he'd do that.  But moving away to work for RU would give him more opportunities to wander around on his own and get into mischief, and he could always fall back on his family if it didn't work out.

[Mojitogirl]

I think Anna is trying to distract from the speculation of Josh being away again. Jessa and Jill are being super active as well. They are coming off as too desperate trying to sell the cute kids in a big, happy family narrative. 

[toodles]

1 hour ago, Mya said:

I wonder if this is true oh my goodness.  Where is this from?

 

1 hour ago, JoanArc said:

Holy shit, if true this is huge. Like stake-through-the-heart huge. If he's back at RU you know it's because he pulled some shit somewhere. I don't see Josh meeting a 15 year old school girl, when he's more into homeschooling types. If the school knows, even a religious school would have a duty to report it to the authorities.

I'll vote 35% likelihood this is true. Someday it will be 100% true, because you can't keep Josh contained forever.

This site also had a bombshell item about Derrick a couple of months ago. It's in the Dillard thread if you want to look.

I follow this site off and on.  They are shining a white, hot light on child molesters and the casting couch.  

Jesus jail is not the answer.  If I were this girl's parents I would have been in the police station so fast it would have made your head swim.  But it won't happen because jeebus.  And money. How many times will Josh get away with this?  

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

4 hours ago, Fosca said:

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

I have no clue if this is true, but I hope it isn't. As much as I'd love another Joshley/Duaggar scandal, I really hope it doesn't involve a 15 year old girl or any minor. I feel terrible for the alleged 15 year old girl in this situation. If Josh is caught in a scandal, I want it to at least be with a consenting adult, even if she's a consenting adult who has entrapped & exposed Josh for "fame"/money/etc.

In the blind, it says the girl is from their church.  I think the Duggars are now attending Kendra's dad's church, right? Is Josh attending, too? If so, it won't be hard for the church community (as I think it's pretty small) to figure out what girl this is (if there is indeed such a girl) and I'm sue she will be shamed. Ugh. I hope if it is true, the girl's family presses charges and they sue for $$$ (and win).

Edited February 14, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[FakeJoshDuggar]

4 hours ago, Fosca said:

ENTERTAINMENT LAWYER 02/13 **#8**
This married former reality star who should have gone to jail and not just Hollywood jail had to be bailed out again recently by the pastor at his church and his family when a 15 year old at the church said she had been having sex with him on a regular basis. Considering she is 15, it is rape rather than sex, but she was worried about her parents finding out so spoke to the pastor about it. I don't think her parents know yet. The only reason anyone knows anything is she told someone at school so it is only a matter of time before it gets back to her parents. My guess is they will get a big check and disown their daughter, because in their minds (guessing by which church they belong to) that it is her fault.     Josh Duggar

 

 

It might explain why Josh went to Jesus Jail, if indeed he did.  Then again, they might have gotten the information from here and just ran with it.

Woah! That’s a whole new level of crazy right there. Even if parts of the story are true (please don’t let her be 15) I hope Anna wakes the hell up and gets her kids out of that mess. 

If the blind is true, it further proves he’s an active child molester and needs to be behind bars for the safety of his community. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

5 minutes ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

Woah! That’s a whole new level of crazy right there. Even if parts of the story are true (please don’t let her be 15) I hope Anna wakes the hell up and gets her kids out of that mess. 

If the blind is true, it further proves he’s an active child molester and needs to be behind bars for the safety of his community. 

Anna is busy painting cute animals on poster boards & posting selfies of her kids. She doesn't live in reality these days. Being married to a Duggar for a while does that to you (see also: Derrick). 

Edited February 14, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[FakeJoshDuggar]

12 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I have no clue if this is true, but I hope it isn't. As much as I'd love another Joshley/Duaggar scandal, I really hope it doesn't involve a 15 year old girl or any minor. I feel terrible for the alleged 15 year old girl in this situation. If Josh is caught in a scandal, I want it to at least be with a consenting adult, even if she's a consenting adult who has entrapped & exposed Josh for "fame"/money/etc.

In the blind, it says the girl is from their church.  I think the Duggars are now attending Kendra's dad's church, right? Is Josh attending, too? If so, it won't be hard for the church community (as I think it's pretty small) to figure out what girl this is (if there is indeed such a girl) and I'm sue she will be shamed. Ugh. 

If they are attending Kendra’s dad’s church, he has a vested interest in helping with the cover up. Now that his daughter has hitched her wagon to the TLC gravy train, she’d be collateral damage in another scandal. 

Just now, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Anna is busy painting cute animals on poster boards & posting selfies of her kids. She doesn't live in reality any more. Being married to a Duggar for a while does that to you (see also: Derrick). 

At some point the humiliation would make me die inside. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

1 minute ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

If they are attending Kendra’s dad’s church, he has a vested interest in helping with the cover up. Now that his daughter has hitched her wagon to the TLC gravy train, she’d be collateral damage in another scandal. 

This is depressingly true. :(

Are pastors mandatory reporters for stuff like this in Arkansas? 

[FakeJoshDuggar]

1 minute ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

This is depressingly true. :(

Are pastors mandatory reporters for stuff like this in Arkansas? 

Who knows. Arkansas seems like a whole other dimension, let alone state. 

I’d love for a reporter to drop a dime to the police and ask for comment about the allegations. Maybe it would trigger an investigation? Given his past, it’s not like it would be baseless. He molested a five year old after all. 

[BitterApple]

It wouldn't surprise me if Josh was cheating, but I want to believe he's not stupid enough to seek out a minor.

[Nysha]

Quote

(29) A clergy member, which includes a minister, priest, rabbi, accredited Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting him or her, except to the extent the clergy member:

(A) Has acquired knowledge of suspected child maltreatment through communications required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith; or

(B) Received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of admission;

Yes, Kendra's dad is a mandated reporter. Arkansas Mandated Reporters

[graefin]

No way is it true. That site (CDAN) was discredited years ago. The revelation that blinds were made up there was big news among gossip sites at the time. I'm surprised anyone still follows it.

[GeeGolly]

Shit gossip like that blind item is wrong. If Josh was seen even talking to a teenager from church this kind of talk could be harmful to some innocent young girl. I'd like to think Fundies don't read tabloid gossip but I bet they do. Who ever writes those made up stories needs to stop.

[Temperance]

4 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

This is depressingly true. Are pastors mandatory reporters for stuff like this in Arkansas? 

After Joshgate I blew, I saw people talking about it on tv. This expert was either a psychologist or a doctor and she said we are all mandated reporters. If you hear first hand about major abuse, you have a obligation to report it.  (I'm not sure if they meant morally or legally.)

Edited February 14, 2018 by Temperance

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, Temperance said:

After Joshgate I blew, I saw people talking about it on tv. This expert was either a psychologist or a doctor and she said we are all mandated reporters. If you hear first hand about major abuse, you have a obligation to report it.  (I'm not sure if they meant morally or legally.)

Unfortunately, morally.

[Nysha]

Legally, if you're not a mandated reporter, things are murkier. I was threatened by CPS for not reporting a family member, but thankfully I had an email from my lawyer telling me not to report the incident. Now, I wish I had reported it, but even if I had, it wasn't physical abuse and nothing would have been done.

[Albanyguy]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 12:21 PM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Anna is busy painting cute animals on poster boards & posting selfies of her kids. She doesn't live in reality these days.

At least she has enough sense not to post a schmoopy Valentine's Day message to the world about how blessed her marriage is and how she has the Best Husband Eveah, y'all! She must dimly understand how that would go over.

[Natalie68]

On 2/14/2018 at 9:07 AM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I have no clue if this is true, but I hope it isn't. As much as I'd love another Joshley/Duaggar scandal, I really hope it doesn't involve a 15 year old girl or any minor. I feel terrible for the alleged 15 year old girl in this situation. If Josh is caught in a scandal, I want it to at least be with a consenting adult, even if she's a consenting adult who has entrapped & exposed Josh for "fame"/money/etc.

In the blind, it says the girl is from their church.  I think the Duggars are now attending Kendra's dad's church, right? Is Josh attending, too? If so, it won't be hard for the church community (as I think it's pretty small) to figure out what girl this is (if there is indeed such a girl) and I'm sue she will be shamed. Ugh. I hope if it is true, the girl's family presses charges and they sue for $$$ (and win).

How old are Kendra's sisters?

[Temperance]

5 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

How old are Kendra's sisters?

One is very young around 6 and the other is about 17. 

[Annb67]

Well he must be in Jesus jail. Anna posted a picture of a Valentine's Day breakfast with just her kids...no baby Daddy in sight. Hmmmmm......

[madpsych78]

Not even a mention of Smuggar in any capacity on Valentine's Day.

[Churchhoney]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:37 AM, Mya said:

 Where is this from?

From the Empire of Bullshit. 

The same place -- or at least the same type of place -- that made up the idiot story about a local family supporting their teenage daughter's long-running affair with Jim Bob and their willingness to raise Jim Bob's love child from said affair. 

The Empire of Bullshit and Ridiculousness. 

What 15-year-old is dumb enough to have repeated sex with that ugly old man?

Who's a total clod not a player?

Who's kind of dumb and quite arrogant and thus couldn't make decent conversation with a contemporary 15-year-old if his life depended on it?

Who treats females the way an antiquated Victorian bastard treats females both sexually and every other way?

Who has no place to even have sex with someone and so would have to be going to cheap motels with a 15-year-old -- which might work a few times but probably not that many in a small town like the one they live in, where everyone knows him?

Who is a pronounced coward who's at least smart enough to know that this kind of affair is particularly dangerous, especially for him, and who would shy the hell away from it for that reason alone?

And who has NO money so he can't offer the girl anything -- and teenagers like sex with older men when they get stuff for it... that's virtually always a huge part of the attraction? 

He's into sex-show performers, not kids, despite what happened when he was a kid. We saw that clearly in the lame sad-ass stuff that came out in the Ashley Madison period.

That sister molestation was more a power play than anything else." Look! I'm the golden son and since my sexual avenues outside the home are severely limited by our family lifestyle, I'm going to make these little bitches suffer for it." Not any kind of evidence of lifelong interest in young girls, in my opinion. 

To the extent that he's banging someone, it's a cheap local prostitute or some other sad local non-prostitute he's nevertheless paying. Some sadsack woman somewhere close to his own age group who is doing it for the money. And I'd be willing to bet that even that isn't happening very often. BECAUSE HE HAS NO MONEY! 

These repeated stories about Duggar men having long-running affairs with teenage girls are made up by clickbait purveyors because they know they play into all the most salacious and thrilling things everybody wants to believe about the Duggars and their world. ....

However, we see -- from the stuff that eventually is shown to be true -- that the Duggars are way more mundane than this kind of story suggests. 

[Sew Sumi]

Here's Anna's IG post. I can't believe that she didn't get Smuggar in the group picture behind the four kids, at least. Or something. It's strange that there was no mention of him at all in her post, even if she wanted to keep the pictures kid-centric. It's really looking like he did make the trip back to Jesus Jail. 

[Nysha]

Josh has been featured in enough family pictures this past year, that if he were home, he'd be shown. 

How did they manage to teach Meredith the Duggar open-mouthed surprise face smile?  Mackynzie looks like she's over it. She's old enough to know that something isn't right, even if she doesn't quite know what's wrong.

[bigskygirl]

As someone once said, the plot thickens. And yes in the case of Josh, it really does thicken. Excuse me while I head off the Prayer Closet.

[Churchhoney]

On 2/10/2018 at 10:32 AM, lulu69 said:

Radaronline & The Christian Post claim Smuggar and his parents/siblings are simply at RU to eat pizza and say hi. Can't make this shut up ?

Well, considering that in fact RU is a scam setup at which nothing really happens with regard to anyone's addictions except that they hand RU money, eat junk food and do some kind of chores, this is essentially true in a way. It's a lie in terms of the way the idiot Duggars think of RU, of course. But in the reality-based world, nobody actually does anything there except eat pizza and say hi. 

[Barb23]

At least Anna put some thought in a nice Valentine's Day breakfast for the kiddos. I keep thinking about the time Jackson (?)  made instant oatmeal for one of the little lost girls. 

[Westiepeach]

Just now, Barb23 said:

At least Anna put some thought in a nice Valentine's Day breakfast for the kiddos. I keep thinking about the time Jackson (?)  made instant oatmeal for one of the little lost girls. 

Using tap water straight outta the faucet, right?

[Love2dance]

Makes me want a cinnamon roll NOW!!!

[Jynnan tonnix]

At the very least, the M-crew appear to have their own personalities behind the open-mouth smiles. If that can continue to at least some  extent there might be promise of something which could eventually transcend the Gothard training...