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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

maraleia

By maraleia
in Counting On

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Frankly, I don't believe that Anna will ever divorce Josh no matter how badly he disrespects their wedding vows. I think she will remain in their marriage for a multitude of Gothard-y reasons, but most of all, I believe that the Duggars have become Anna's family. They are her second parents, closest friends-in-law, her support system, her mother's helpers, etc. She won't divorce Josh because it would mean divorcing them as well. No matter how crazy we think the Duggars are, the Gothard's honest truth is that Anna loves them. 

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New show title: 10 to 20 Years and Counting 

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MargeGunderson

Someone on Reddit just described Josh’s face as a glistening glazed ham. I am considering divorcing my husband and marrying that poster. 

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doodlebug

Well, for many of us, it's the difference between 'imperfect' and 'non-PC' and being a criminal.  Josh is a child molester and his parents actively intervened in his situation to avoid him being punis

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3girlsforus

3girlsforus

Frankly, I don't believe that Anna will ever divorce Josh no matter how badly he disrespects their wedding vows. I think she will remain in their marriage for a multitude of Gothard-y reasons, but most of all, I believe that the Duggars have become Anna's family. They are her second parents, closest friends-in-law, her support system, her mother's helpers, etc. She won't divorce Josh because it would mean divorcing them as well. No matter how crazy we think the Duggars are, the Gothard's honest truth is that Anna loves them. 

 

This is actually sadder than the idea that she'll stay with him for all the Gothard-y reasons. If she does feel so strongly about the Duggars that she's willing to put up with anything Josh hands her then I just want to cry for her. It's such one-sided devotion. The Duggars don't love her. They own her and use her. 

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Darknight

Darknight

This is actually sadder than the idea that she'll stay with him for all the Gothard-y reasons. If she does feel so strongly about the Duggars that she's willing to put up with anything Josh hands her then I just want to cry for her. It's such one-sided devotion. The Duggars don't love her. They own her and use her.

Can I just say that I'm not trying to sound mean, but I don't feel sorry for Anna. She's an adult with four kids now. I get she grew up fundie but she actually has options unlike other fundies. She need to put her kids before Josh. Josh is a grown ass man. Her children should be a priority right now and they're not. So I don't feel bad for Anna. She had no problem being with the frc and forcing her beliefs on others. Or knowing that Josh harm his sisters. She's not stuck or poor. She has siblings on the outside willing to help. She has money. There's nothing stopping her from protecting her children but Anna.

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

There are so many opinions on Anna. She has all the options anyone has environmentally, but not so much in her head and in her heart. Culture has a huge impact on who we are, what we do, and how we see the world.

 

She has time to make decisions, and in all reality we have no idea what she has done or will do.

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floridamom

floridamom

Re Anna and who's first on her list, Josh or the kids: According to their Gothard/ATI belief system it is absolutely your husband who is FIRST and FOREMOST, always and forever. The kids, even if you have 30 of them come in second, always. They have said it themselves, the marriage comes first; and we know that means the HUSBAND is put on a pedestal, not the wife, once the kids grow up and marry off, it will be you and your husband left in the homestead alone with each other once again, so that relationship must be nurtured at all costs and saved as FIRST.

So, Anna, really doesn't have a choice if she wants to keep with her belief system. Sorry, Mackie, Mikey, Marcky, and Merry; you guys will always be second fiddle to your Mom. So sad, but true.

How can the justify their belief system of keeping the females uneducated, unemployed and unprepared for life their WHOLE lives? There ALWAYS are exceptions to the rule that these carefully orchestrated "courtings" could go south after marriage. It clearly puts the wife in a disadvantageous place; totally dependent. What is Anna going to do? Nothing...pray for Josh to come back home to her; all "cured".....again.

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anna0852

anna0852

Re Anna and who's first on her list, Josh or the kids: According to their Gothard/ATI belief system it is absolutely your husband who is FIRST and FOREMOST, always and forever. The kids, even if you have 30 of them come in second, always. They have said it themselves, the marriage comes first; and we know that means the HUSBAND is put on a pedestal, not the wife, once the kids grow up and marry off, it will be you and your husband left in the homestead alone with each other once again, so that relationship must be nurtured at all costs and saved as FIRST.

So, Anna, really doesn't have a choice if she wants to keep with her belief system. Sorry, Mackie, Mikey, Marcky, and Merry; you guys will always be second fiddle to your Mom. So sad, but true.

 

It's not just the Gothard/ATI/fundie's who believe this. My mother and father are as far from religious as you can get and they told us all the time growing up that they were spouses first and parents second. And I consider them pretty decent parents. I will say though, my mother never found herself in anything close to resembling Anna's situation. Had abuse or cheating been involved, she might have been singing a different tune.

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Julia

Julia

(edited)

I have a cousin who is RC enough that she and her husband teach Pre-Cana at their church and she's told me that if her children die she'd be sad, but she wouldn't survive the death of her husband. Definitely not just Gothard.

Edited by Julia
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fireice13

fireice13

My mom always stated that her marriage came first because the best thing you can give your child is a healthy, happy, home and the way to do that was to make sure your marriage was a good one. My parents have been very happily married for over 35 years and we have a great family.

 

The difference between this and the Duggars is that my parents actually did take an interest in me and raised me, rather than having 19 kids and just passing the babies off to sister moms. Obviously, if something happens that makes the marriage a bad one, like cheating, then there definitely needs to be thought about what's best for the kids and the wronged spouse. The Duggars aren't going to think that there is anything better than sticking by your husband and becoming a better wife so he doesn't stray again. That probably means pushing the kids away and paying even more attention to Josh, since obviously he wasn't getting what he deserved at home. At least that's what I assume they're thinking based on what we know about them and their beliefs.

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Ilovemylabs

Ilovemylabs

Apparently Amy's husband thinks Anna should give Josh the old heave ho, according to an article I just read.  I have little sympathy for women who stay with unfaithful husbands (if they know about it), but I realize Anna was not raised normally and has been brainwashed into thinking she must stick this out.

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Skittl1321

Skittl1321

I have a cousin who is RC enough that she and her husband teach Pre-Cana at their church and she's told me that if her children die she'd be sad, but she wouldn't survive the death of her husband. Definitely not just Gothard.

This wasn't taught during my pre-Cana directly, but I can understand the sentiment. You get through the death of a child together. (The word sad is not strong enough though!) I don't know what I would do without my husband. It's my biggest fear.

But definetly it is taught that your spouse is the most important person in your life. My Mom has reminded me that over and over as we start to expand our family.

But that really doesn't apply to adultery or abuse. You can get an annulment for that. You know, commandments and all.

If Josh had kept his wedding vows, yes, he comes before the Ms; but once he broke them, it was his decision to step out of the husband title. That seems to be where Gothard differs from a Catholic point if view.

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Missy Vixen

Missy Vixen

And I am officially wrong. I thought the Duggars would stay home rather than expose themselves to the other guests at FAMY's wedding, alcohol, dancing...

 

One has to wonder what Anna did last night after the kids were in bed and she had a little time to herself. Smuggar is a POS but it's hard to imagine she is not grieving the loss of her marriage.

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kathe5133

kathe5133

I do feel bad for Anna. Her life has been snatched from her and she had no say. No one but she and Josh know what went on in their marriage. Was she happy? Josh surely was not happy if he was looking elsewhere. And if Josh was that unhappy how could she be happy? Why I feel for her is the total lack of privacy. Yes, she did agree to have aspects of her life filmed. But I doubt she could imagined something like this. Now her brother is on Facebook telling her what to do. Strangers are offering legal advice should she want a divorce. People she has never met are searching Instagram for photos of her to determine if she is happy or sad and making pronouncements about that based on an expression that was caught in a millisecond. (not judging, I am looking too!). She must have a knot in her stomach the size of a football! It is really too bad. I hope she can turn down the noise and make the decision that is best for her. Maybe she will stay with him? Maybe he will change his ways? I hope she finds her own peace in all of this.

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3girlsforus

3girlsforus

Can I just say that I'm not trying to sound mean, but I don't feel sorry for Anna. She's an adult with four kids now. I get she grew up fundie but she actually has options unlike other fundies. She need to put her kids before Josh. Josh is a grown ass man. Her children should be a priority right now and they're not. So I don't feel bad for Anna. She had no problem being with the frc and forcing her beliefs on others. Or knowing that Josh harm his sisters. She's not stuck or poor. She has siblings on the outside willing to help. She has money. There's nothing stopping her from protecting her children but Anna.

 

I understand what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree. But my point was that it's enormously sad if Anna loves the Duggars family so much that it comes into play in her decision making. They don't give a crap about her as a person. So it's just another uneven relationship. Anna is devastated by Josh who probably cares about her but I don't think the affect this is having on his relationship with Anna is crushing to him. It's the same problem Duggar Mom and Dad. They have no real feelings and compassion for her. 

 

As far as Anna not putting her kids first, I think it's pretty unfair to say she isn't doing that just because she hasn't filed for divorce yet. When exactly what she supposed to think clearly about that? When she heard about that molestation (and yes - I think it was the first she was really told what happened) and she was 8 month pregnant? Or when she was 5 weeks post partum after just having uprooted her family from DC to head back to Arkansas. People do stay with their spouses after cheating. It's not bad parenting to at least think through divorce before proceeding. Plus she has time because Josh is gone so she isn't dealing with him everyday. I am under no delusions that she will leave him. She definitely doesn't have support around her to give her the confidence to do that. I am just not going to jump on the 'she's a sappy pushover who now deserves what she gets' because she hasn't filed yet.

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kokapetl

kokapetl

(edited)

I understand what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree. But my point was that it's enormously sad if Anna loves the Duggars family so much that it comes into play in her decision making. They don't give a crap about her as a person. So it's just another uneven relationship. Anna is devastated by Josh who probably cares about her but I don't think the affect this is having on his relationship with Anna is crushing to him. It's the same problem Duggar Mom and Dad. They have no real feelings and compassion for her.

As far as Anna not putting her kids first, I think it's pretty unfair to say she isn't doing that just because she hasn't filed for divorce yet. When exactly what she supposed to think clearly about that? When she heard about that molestation (and yes - I think it was the first she was really told what happened) and she was 8 month pregnant? Or when she was 5 weeks post partum after just having uprooted her family from DC to head back to Arkansas. People do stay with their spouses after cheating. It's not bad parenting to at least think through divorce before proceeding. Plus she has time because Josh is gone so she isn't dealing with him everyday. I am under no delusions that she will leave him. She definitely doesn't have support around her to give her the confidence to do that. I am just not going to jump on the 'she's a sappy pushover who now deserves what she gets' because she hasn't filed yet.

I agree. Leaving Josh isn't as feasible as it may seem. Josh currently has no money or income, splitting up for a slice of that is stupid. Her brother may be willing to take her in short term, but he can't and won't support her forever, and Anna is trained and educated for nothing. She can't be a nanny, she's got 4 kids of her own to "nanny". JimBob has the money, and if she stays with Josh so her kids have access to the JimBob money, she's a good parent in my eyes. Edited by Kokapetl
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Muffyn

Muffyn

The funniest thing about the Daily Mail photos is this caption:  "Despite her family's troubles, Michelle Duggar (right) kept a smile on her face to attend her niece's wedding".  How often have we seen Michelle without a smile on her face?  She would smile through a nuclear holocaust.

 

Anna has six months to figure out whether she wants to stay with Josh.  She may wait and see whether the "treatment" has helped him.  It has certainly done wonders for my viewing pleasure. 

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OpieTaylor

OpieTaylor

I agree. Leaving Josh isn't as feasible as it may seem. Josh currently has no money or income, splitting up for a slice of that is stupid. Her brother may be willing to take her in short term, but he can't and won't support her forever, and Anna is trained and educated for nothing. She can't be a nanny, she's got 4 kids of her own to "nanny". JimBob has the money, and if she stays with Josh so her kids have access to the JimBob money, she's a good parent in my eyes.

Her prospects are pretty sad. Ultimately she may be most content to just become one of the Duggar minions, milling about the TTH - pretty much a stay-at-home daughter-in-law.

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lookeyloo

lookeyloo

I posted earlier that from my own situation of a spouse leaving me I couldn't make any rational decision for a long time. I was too consumed with grief. Even though he left me for his nurse didn't mean I instantly fell out of love with him. My advantage was taking myself to some licensed therapy on the pretext of getting him back. Since the therapist was experienced and well trained she helped me

Figure out my life without him because he was gone for good. Undortunately Anna doesn't have the advantage of real therapy but I don't think she is even nearly ready to make any decision.

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Tabbygirl521

Tabbygirl521

So per the Daily Mail, Anna has to sit through sermon after sermon about porn and forgiveness, with an entire congregation pitying her and undoubtedly fighting mental pictures of Josh "sinning." The icing on the cake today was having Jill, Derrick, and Israel stand on stage behind the preacher as he hammers and hammers AT ANNA to underscore this trio as perfect family for her to aspire to. These assholes,,,

I recently read Going Clear, basically an expose about Scientology and the SeaOrg. It is virtually impossible to escape once you are in SeaOrg. Some of the mindfucking described made me think of Gothard world. Yes, on the one hand, Anna is an adult with free will. On the other hand, she has no resources of her own, and I'll bet she always has at least one handler. And she is going to hell if she doesn't forgive her rancid pervert of a husband.

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kokapetl

kokapetl

(edited)

So per the Daily Mail, Anna has to sit through sermon after sermon about porn and forgiveness, with an entire congregation pitying her and undoubtedly fighting mental pictures of Josh "sinning." The icing on the cake today was having Jill, Derrick, and Israel stand on stage behind the preacher as he hammers and hammers AT ANNA to underscore this trio as perfect family for her to aspire to. These assholes,,,

I recently read Going Clear, basically an expose about Scientology and the SeaOrg. It is virtually impossible to escape once you are in SeaOrg. Some of the mindfucking described made me think of Gothard world. Yes, on the one hand, Anna is an adult with free will. On the other hand, she has no resources of her own, and I'll bet she always has at least one handler. And she is going to hell if she doesn't forgive her rancid pervert of a husband.

What can she do? Sometimes there are no good choices. Edited by Kokapetl
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sometimesy

sometimesy

(edited)

What can she do? Sometimes there are no good choices.

 

Take her brother up on his offer. Find a lawyer to give her some options, a social worker to tap into resources she may need for a bit, and a counselor who can help her find strength and courage to do what is best for those M&Ms. There must be some sort of compromise that can be negotiated. Review the situation in the future (whenever she's ready) and then make a decision.

Edited by sometimesy
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What In The

What In The

Take her brother up on his offer. Find a lawyer to give her some options, a social worker to tap into resources she may need for a bit, and a counselor who can help her find strength and courage to do what is best for those M&Ms. There must be some sort of compromise that can be negotiated. Review the situation in the future (whenever she's ready) and then make a decision.

Agreed. There are resources out there for her. WIC, for example I think pays for baby food, formula, and things until the child or children are a certain age.

Her brother could help her tap into state benefits that could help her until she os able to stand on her own feet.

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kokapetl

kokapetl

(edited)

She's currently in no danger of starving, I think it's a terrible idea for her to subject herself and her children to the indignity of the welfare services of Arkansas or Florida. She doesn't live in Sweden.

ETA: if she's applies for WIC in a game of brinkmanship with JimBob, that I'd support.

Edited by Kokapetl
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lookeyloo

lookeyloo

Yes but she would have to know there are legitimate (to her) resources out there. She is cocooned in duggarland. Who would help her? Who does she think she can trust? Will she confide in Jana and will Jana then tell Daddy? Does Anna even know her brother offered to help? Did her parents say don't do it? She is in a vulnerable spot and my guess is very sad and confused.

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Wellfleet

Wellfleet

(edited)

Apparently Amy's husband thinks Anna should give Josh the old heave ho, according to an article I just read.  I have little sympathy for women who stay with unfaithful husbands (if they know about it), but I realize Anna was not raised normally and has been brainwashed into thinking she must stick this out.

 

Do we know what the Gothard "policy" is when a woman strays? Not that it comes up often, but it must happen on occasion. What are the rules in this case? I'm sure a man divorcing his wife for adultery is condoned, but are the children considered at all? Wait, what am I thinking? Seriously, are couples encouraged to remain together even when the woman is the "offending" party? If I missed this being discussed previously, mea culpa - but I don't think I've heard of what they do with a cheating wife. Oh wait, she probably gets shipped to RU as well...

Edited by Wellfleet
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Featherhat

Featherhat

(edited)

One of the big things is *she believes much of the Gothardism crap" that the Duggars believe. She probably believes it more than Josh does considering she's been much more enthusiastic about loads of kids on camera than he ever has. Maybe this will start her down the road to when she eventually leaves (or Josh) maybe but I'm not going to bitch about a woman with a newborn not making any rash decisions whether they are Anna Duggar or the CEO of a major company.

We have no legal reason to suspect Josh is a danger to his kids right now. Adultery often exposes problems within a family but nothing has been made public which unequivocally signals "get them out now", the Duggar lifestyle is legal. Josh probably isn't living with them at the moment and I hope Anna takes this time to think about what *She* wants.

Her brother, well I have no idea what type of relationship they have ever had, but if they hadn't interacted for a while and/or she agreed with her parents, him popping up making those statements might have made her less inclined to trust him, not more.

Edited by Featherhat
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Isthisok

Isthisok

So per the Daily Mail, Anna has to sit through sermon after sermon about porn and forgiveness, with an entire congregation pitying her and undoubtedly fighting mental pictures of Josh "sinning." The icing on the cake today was having Jill, Derrick, and Israel stand on stage behind the preacher as he hammers and hammers AT ANNA to underscore this trio as perfect family for her to aspire to. These assholes,,,

I recently read Going Clear, basically an expose about Scientology and the SeaOrg. It is virtually impossible to escape once you are in SeaOrg. Some of the mindfucking described made me think of Gothard world. Yes, on the one hand, Anna is an adult with free will. On the other hand, she has no resources of her own, and I'll bet she always has at least one handler. And she is going to hell if she doesn't forgive her rancid pervert of a husband.

I watched the Going Clear documentary, didn't know it was a book too.

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JenCarroll

JenCarroll

She's currently in no danger of starving, I think it's a terrible idea for her to subject herself and her children to the indignity of the welfare services of Arkansas or Florida. She doesn't live in Sweden.

Well, there's an idea. Maybe she should move to Sweden.

:)

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sometimesy

sometimesy

(edited)

She's currently in no danger of starving, I think it's a terrible idea for her to subject herself and her children to the indignity of the welfare services of Arkansas or Florida. She doesn't live in Sweden.

ETA: if she's applies for WIC in a game of brinkmanship with JimBob, that I'd support.

Ok Duggars have no problem with 'love offerings' or freebies for advertising purposes (lawyer). She doesn't have to divorce Josh and become Wiccan, but it's astounding to me that she isn't thinking, 'Is there something out there better for my kids? Maybe this is a good time to review all my options.'

 

 

 

Edited because of confusing statement (my specialty).

Edited by sometimesy
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kokapetl

kokapetl

Hmmm...

F Bin. It's the least disgusting (sort of) and I can use the evidence to torpedo his televangelist career. Plus, I'm guessing once Jessa found out she'll take care of the K part for me.

K Josh 'cause one of my life goals is to avoid having four kids while being chained to a cheating douchenozzle.

M Jim Boob (ew!ew!ew!) because as long as I wear my mullet and gaze adoringly at the King of the Idiots while he's in the room, I can take over the homefool (Jessa being locked away for killing Bin and all), and teach evolution and The Handmaid's Tale.

it'd be so easy to get JimBob or Ben to bend to your will. Kill Josh (he's unattractive, poor, powerless and lazy), fuck Ben because he's hottish, but poor, and marry JimBob and be the real boss.
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sometimesy

sometimesy

(edited)

it'd be so easy to get JimBob or Ben to bend to your will. Kill Josh (he's unattractive, poor, powerless and lazy), fuck Ben because he's hottish, but poor, and marry JimBob and be the real boss.

 

Michelle? Welcome!

Edited by sometimesy
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Jynnan tonnix

Jynnan tonnix

it'd be so easy to get JimBob or Ben to bend to your will. Kill Josh (he's unattractive, poor, powerless and lazy), fuck Ben because he's hottish, but poor, and marry JimBob and be the real boss.

But given  the whole gothard thing (and even without it, to a large degree), would it really be possible to marry someone and not have to f*** them at some point? Then it sort of becomes a lose-lose situation...there really is no choice where you are not sleeping with two of them. Preferably not at the same time.

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Marigold

Marigold

Anna doesn't want to leave Josh. 

She wants her "normal" marriage back.  She wants her family intact. She wants Josh to get well so they can be together. Anna loves him. 

 

I think it's a hard decision whether you stay or go. Right now, she is praying that Josh changes. So, she will wait the 6 months and welcome him home, believing that her prayers have been answered.

When he cheats again, THAT'S when she might walk...when she realizes that he hasn't changed. 

 

And many marriages have survived some awful sitatuations.  When I was younger, I said if any man cheats on me, his shit is out the door. Life has a funny way of changing your mind...espcially when there are kids involved. Many women stay with cheaters for all sorts of reasons that we don't understand unless we have walked in their shoes. I have two friends dealing with this exact thing and both chose to stay.  The cheater is a jerk and the women know it...but the kids are well provided for...custody battles and visitation rights can get very ugly, very fast. Children get used as a weapon in a bitter divorce. Being a single mother is tough.  There are many things Anna has to consider. The first one is that she loved Josh very much and always has.  

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zenme

zenme

Anna doesn't want to leave Josh.

She wants her "normal" marriage back.  She wants her family intact. She wants Josh to get well so they can be together. Anna loves him.

I think it's a hard decision whether you stay or go. Right now, she is praying that Josh changes. So, she will wait the 6 months and welcome him home, believing that her prayers have been answered.

When he cheats again, THAT'S when she might walk...when she realizes that he hasn't changed.

 

And many marriages have survived some awful sitatuations.  When I was younger, I said if any man cheats on me, his shit is out the door. Life has a funny way of changing your mind...espcially when there are kids involved. Many women stay with cheaters for all sorts of reasons that we don't understand unless we have walked in their shoes. I have two friends dealing with this exact thing and both chose to stay.  The cheater is a jerk and the women know it...but the kids are well provided for...custody battles and visitation rights can get very ugly, very fast. Children get used as a weapon in a bitter divorce. Being a single mother is tough.  There are many things Anna has to consider. The first one is that she loved Josh very much and always has.

 

I totally agree.  I think Anna is going to see how things pan out when Josh is done with his "rehab."  I realize that this rehab likely won't work, but I think Anna and her family think it will.  I really do believe that if Josh "re-offends" then Anna MAY consider leaving him, but ultimately she won't.  She'll probably just think the devil has a strong grasp on Josh and support another rehab trip.  I think the only way that Josh and Anna will ever divorce is if Josh left Anna, which I could totally see him doing once Jimbo kicks the bucket.  He'll leave her for someone younger. 

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3girlsforus

3girlsforus

Anna doesn't want to leave Josh. 

She wants her "normal" marriage back.  She wants her family intact. She wants Josh to get well so they can be together. Anna loves him. 

 

I think it's a hard decision whether you stay or go. Right now, she is praying that Josh changes. So, she will wait the 6 months and welcome him home, believing that her prayers have been answered.

When he cheats again, THAT'S when she might walk...when she realizes that he hasn't changed. 

 

And many marriages have survived some awful sitatuations.  When I was younger, I said if any man cheats on me, his shit is out the door. Life has a funny way of changing your mind...espcially when there are kids involved. Many women stay with cheaters for all sorts of reasons that we don't understand unless we have walked in their shoes. I have two friends dealing with this exact thing and both chose to stay.  The cheater is a jerk and the women know it...but the kids are well provided for...custody battles and visitation rights can get very ugly, very fast. Children get used as a weapon in a bitter divorce. Being a single mother is tough.  There are many things Anna has to consider. The first one is that she loved Josh very much and always has.  

 

Very well said. 

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MichaelaRae

MichaelaRae

This in the news former reality star from an A list reality family, has bailed on his rehab and was spotted at a hotel with a blonde woman. This should be good. Josh Duggar

 

"A list reality family"...That might be the funniest thing I've read in AGES. 

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