Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[crazycatlady58]

I wonder when ( or if) it will dawn on Anna that the Josh that went to prison will not be the same Josh that comes out of prison. I am not talking about the CSA but how the experience will change him. Few people who go to prison come out better than when they went in.  He will be in a high stress environment for at least 5 years,as he should be, and I don't think that will improve his attitude. 

[merylinkid]

1 hour ago, cereality said:

JB/Michelle/Anna would go on and on about how he's such a wonderful husband and father and he'll repent for life so he deserves the shortest possible sentence.

Could Anna actually testify at sentencing?   Promise that she will do better at monitoring him if he is just allowed to come home?   Not that it will do a darn bit of good,  but could she?

[CalicoKitty]

I wonder how Josh's outcome will effect the girl's law suit.  Will the outcome of the girl's lawsuit have anything to do with sentencing for Josh, or are the two cases totally separate?  I'm confused.

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder how Josh's outcome will effect the girl's law suit.  Will the outcome of the girl's lawsuit have anything to do with sentencing for Josh, or are the two cases totally separate?  I'm confused.

It's entirely separate as far as I know. It's a civil suit. But I have been curious if it's been rescheduled. It was supposed to start the same day that he ended up being found guilty, and it's the same judge. I've not heard anything else about it, though. 

[GeeGolly]

Four months is a long time to be thinking about the trial. I wonder if the tiny little details brought out in the trial might wake Anna up. Like the lies he told her about shopping and coming home. The adult porn (if she didn't already know) he was watching on his phone. Could these little things make her question other times she thinks Josh may have lied? And of course Ashley Madison.

Also knowing that Jinger, Joy, Jason and Jill believe Josh is guilty.

Between their belief system and her financial dependence on JB & M, I'm not too hopeful. But I do think now that the trial is over and Anna is sitting in the mess that now is her life, there's a tiny little chance she may wake up.

Edited December 13, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Westiepeach]

8 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I wonder when ( or if) it will dawn on Anna that the Josh that went to prison will not be the same Josh that comes out of prison. I am not talking about the CSA but how the experience will change him. Few people who go to prison come out better than when they went in.  He will be in a high stress environment for at least 5 years,as he should be, and I don't think that will improve his attitude. 

I mentioned that a few weeks ago. This will not be the same Josh she thought she was married to. "Coming Home From Prison" Josh will probably not even want to come "home" to the life he had before. I can see Josh divorcing Anna.

[GeeGolly]

Gee whiz, I hope Joshie didn't forget his Bible.

[Lady Whistleup]

Really impressed with Joy, Ben and Jill's statements. They were simple and to the point.

[SusanM]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Really impressed with Joy, Ben and Jill's statements. They were simple and to the point.

What I liked was that they focused on who the victims in this actually are (whether that was done for PR purpose or not it's important that this was acknowledged) and they really left no doubt that they agreed with the verdict.  

We can't really know what was said within the Duggar circle leading up to the trial but I would presume there was a lot of minimizing, downplaying and denial going on.  And, according to at least one of those statements (Jill's?) out and out lies were being spun.

[Tuxcat]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Four months is a long time to be thinking about the trial. I wonder if the tiny little details brought out in the trial might wake Anna up. Like the lies he told her about shopping and coming home. The adult porn (if she didn't already know) he was watching on his phone. Could these little things make her question other times she thinks Josh may have lied? And of course Ashley Madison.

The thing I don't really understand though is why any of those details could be a surprise. Josh and the defense knew all the evidence against him - the photos - the text messages. Josh knew that stuff would come up in trial. I wonder if he told Anna ahead of time. And she still chose to double clutch him every day.

Still,  hearing it all mapped out by the federal government should be impactful. But this is Anna we're talking about. She named her baby Madyson. Is the middle name Ashley?

[SusanM]

9 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

The thing I don't really understand though is why any of those details could be a surprise. Josh and the defense knew all the evidence against him - the photos - the text messages. Josh knew that stuff would come up in trial. I wonder if he told Anna ahead of time. And she still chose to double clutch him every day.

Anna is either not very bright and chose to believe what version of events Josh fed her or she simply does not care.  Josh could (to quote from a favourite sitcom of mine) "light an orphanage on fire on Christmas Eve" and she'd still be gazing up at him adoringly.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Tuxcat said:

The thing I don't really understand though is why any of those details could be a surprise. Josh and the defense knew all the evidence against him - the photos - the text messages. Josh knew that stuff would come up in trial. I wonder if he told Anna ahead of time. And she still chose to double clutch him every day.

Still,  hearing it all mapped out by the federal government should be impactful. But this is Anna we're talking about. She named her baby Madyson. Is the middle name Ashley?

I doubt Josh told her anything about the details. I'm guessing every detail was new to Anna.

[Tikichick]

On 12/13/2021 at 8:10 AM, Westiepeach said:

I mentioned that a few weeks ago. This will not be the same Josh she thought she was married to. "Coming Home From Prison" Josh will probably not even want to come "home" to the life he had before. I can see Josh divorcing Anna.

He's going to need a place to live and he will have very few options available to him of sustaining himself.   IMO the best way he has of remaining on JB's teet in any substantial way will be to reunite with Anna and his children so that he can live in the lifestyle JB provides them.   I would not be at all surprised to see JB providing only a bare, very bare subsistence to a solo Josh.

Now that Josh has blown an unquestionable hole clean through the middle of JB's ongoing financial revenues on many fronts I'm not so sure JB is even on the Josh is innocent bandwagon privately anymore.   We may never hear words from JB or M saying they believe him guilty, but that doesn't mean that they are insisting he's innocent either.  JB's evasive and deceptive testimony before the court may have been largely for the benefit of his own ego and reputation much more than Josh's.   It's also not impossible JB received legal counsel on his own behalf advising him what not to say or admit to in order to prevent his words being used in a civil lawsuit from any of his children seeking monetary damages. 

I do agree with @crazycatlady58 upthread that, no matter what, the Josh that leaves prison will be a very changed individual.   What I find scary is it's quite likely his experiences are likely to enhance many of his negative traits in disturbing ways -- and that's even excluding the terrifying prospect of his proclivities involving child sexual abuse.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by Tikichick

[Absolom]

What's that old saying - prison is college for criminals?  He may learn how to continue his proclivities with more techniques to avoid detection.

[hathorlive]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:08 PM, Jeeves said:

The reality is, that Anna hasn't had to take care of her kids all on her own, since Josh lost his FRC job and they moved back to Arkansas. And when she was doing the suburban life when Josh worked in DC, they only had three kids.

Whatever their official party line is about it, I'm pretty sure that since returning to Arkansas in 2015, Anna's had plenty of free labor from her sisters-in-law (the unmarried ones, of all ages) for child care and homeschooling. I doubt she's had to even load all the kids into the car without someone to help her - and I'm assuming Josh never lent a hand except maybe to put a kid in a carseat or get them out. 

I think the bigger issue is that Anna will do what Anna (and Josh) want her to do, whether is' move, or visit every opportunity, or make snow angels in the front yard.  And this means she'll be regularly dumping the M's on whatever sister Aunt is around.  I can't see that Anna has been physically or mentally present for her kids in a long time.  I don't think she's capable of handling any of her kids. So unless JB is going to pay for a huge apartment or house near the prison AND for a sister-aunt to go with her, it's probably not going to happen.

[cereality]

13 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Could Anna actually testify at sentencing?   Promise that she will do better at monitoring him if he is just allowed to come home?   Not that it will do a darn bit of good,  but could she?

It would be very unusual for a wife or parent to testify at sentencing bc of course they're gonna say OMG my husband/son deserves not to be in prison for a long time. If the defense wants anyone testifying on his behalf, you'd want it to be someone that is more "distant" from him talking about how he's learned his lesson or is such an upstanding community member - which is obv not an argument you can make for this kind of defendant but it's something people bring up in white collar type cases. So if they wanted testimony it'd have to be like a church person, the Rebers, maybe a much younger brother who didn't really grow up with him who could talk about how he's such an upstanding business man and has taught him so much personally and he's never seen him be inappropriate. And also no judge is taking promises from a wife that she'll watch him once released bc judges don't live in fundie land where you are eternally married and marriage>>> kids -- any judge in his/her right mind would be like yeah that wife won't be around in 5+ years when he's released, she'll be out in 5 months.

Anything we hear from Anna/JB/Michelle/any supportive siblings beyond like 1-2 who'd testify - if there are any/Josh's kids would come in the form of letters to the judge, which will be openly available on the docket, except for his kids' letters most likely as they are minors and usually you'd file those under seal.

Gov't witnesses are usually much easier - FBI type person testifying that they've done this for x years and this is the most depraved thing they've seen; psychologist type witness testifying that those into hurt core could be violent (IDK if that's true just saying someone could make that point if true); and impacted witnesses. Here the kids in the CSAM aren't know but if Jill really wanted to, she could testify broadly about what he did affected her life, how it wasn't handled at all by her parents, and how it's safer for his kids and all kids that he go away for a long time. Jill is the only sibling that I see who maybe would want to testify for the gov't - the others even those that agree with the verdict I think want to put this behind them or are too intimidated by the judicial process or frankly just too broken/exhausted.

Generally at sentencing the judge will limit the number of witnesses and the point of the testimony is NOT - judge this is how we'll control him so he doesn't need prison (bc then you're admitting he needs constant guarding that only a prison can provide). The point is more - judge make the prison time short bc this guy is needed on the outside by his wife/kids (never seen that argument work); is an upstanding citizen - again not for CSAM; or look judge he's already learning his lesson and thus doesn't need to be in prison for that long. That third argument is one that he COULD have made if he had gone straight to prison post arraignment rather than posting bond and living with the Rebers and making babies; he'd have ~8 months of prison under his belt and his defense could have argued - look he's humbled himself and gone to prison ASAP even though he could've posted bond; he's been a model prisoner while there - he avails himself to all therapies available; he studies for his GED or takes college classes or whatever; he goes to Bible study 6 nights/wk and is generally just a delight. THAT often makes judges be like - hmm this guy gets it, maybe he doesn't need 8 yrs in prison, we can do 5 or 6.

Edited December 13, 2021 by cereality

[smittykins]

3 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

She named her baby Madyson. Is the middle name Ashley?

It’s Lily.

[SusanM]

8 minutes ago, cereality said:

he goes to Bible study 6 nights/wk and is generally just a delight

Nothing about this situation is funny but the way you worded this made me laugh.  Aside from all else can anyone ever imagine Josh Duggar being a delight?!

[Tikichick]

28 minutes ago, Absolom said:

What's that old saying - prison is college for criminals?  He may learn how to continue his proclivities with more techniques to avoid detection.

Exposure to criminal behavior in incarceration is why in the juvenile system many judges and referees try very hard not to incarcerate juveniles unless there is no other option.   

Josh's techniques and abilities to deceive will definitely be beyond doctoral level once he's released.    He's also likely to be nurturing a significant amount of depression, rage and deprivation.   Wouldn't be surprised to find him a felon with both dangerous predatory drive he's looking to satisfy -- as well as anger issues looking for an outlet.

None of this is to suggest I think Josh shouldn't be incarcerated.   Just recognizing the fact he will be released and will still be all too young when he is.     

[Jeanne222]

16 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

But do the siblings see JB and M’s part in it all? 

 

After trial and the truth being put on stand I'm sure there were things they didn't know but know now.

Who can forget the pictures?  I didn't see any and kept away from any hint of them but just the thought brought tears to my eyes.  This trial was about Josh but it really should have been more about the children.  Sad....

So back to your question.  Honestly I cannot imagine their lives and beliefs so I really don't know.

Some have broken away with more worldly spouses and may be coming down from the fundy high they were when home in the cult.

Some are so dependent for funds they can't say or do anything.

Some just turned their heads...again...and slowly walk away.

Would love to know the money flow in that family. 

The male Duggers surely haven't prepared themselves for life outside the cult.  The women seemed to have married up a bit but the men are stagnant. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jeanne222

[drafan]

3 hours ago, SusannahM said:

Anna is either not very bright and chose to believe what version of events Josh fed her or she simply does not care.  Josh could (to quote from a favourite sitcom of mine) "light an orphanage on fire on Christmas Eve" and she'd still be gazing up at him adoringly.

Sadly, this would probably turn into a lesser crime than the Joshley ones....kids are excited and don't sleep well on Christmas Eve....and kids can run pretty fast.

The other part...Anna not being very bright....yes.

Both of the Smuggars are gross, along with King Sleazy and his consort. Repulsive. All four of them.

Edited December 13, 2021 by drafan

[mittsigirl]

14 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I wonder when ( or if) it will dawn on Anna that the Josh that went to prison will not be the same Josh that comes out of prison. I am not talking about the CSA but how the experience will change him. Few people who go to prison come out better than when they went in.  He will be in a high stress environment for at least 5 years,as he should be, and I don't think that will improve his attitude. 

I agree with you. He is going to be learning more things in prison, and they will not be good things.

[mittsigirl]

4 hours ago, SusannahM said:

What I liked was that they focused on who the victims in this actually are (whether that was done for PR purpose or not it's important that this was acknowledged) and they really left no doubt that they agreed with the verdict.  

We can't really know what was said within the Duggar circle leading up to the trial but I would presume there was a lot of minimizing, downplaying and denial going on.  And, according to at least one of those statements (Jill's?) out and out lies were being spun.

If Jim Bob had the audacity to turn around and ask the judge if "he was going to allow this?", then you can bet that he did some outrageous spinning and major lying. It's who he is as a person. Rotten to his very core.

[CountryGirl]

20 hours ago, Chicklet said:

She really was mentally 12 when they started "courting". Jeez.

I'm not certain she's all that much more mature in current day.

[mythoughtis]

The ramifications of Josh’s conviction  is not going to be a pleasant thing for any of them to walk through - even  if they don’t open their minds and eyes to the facts. 
it’s going to tear this family apart down the middle.  Some will continue to follow Daddy JB because they want to. Some will because they financially have to. only those with  a firm confidence in themselves will walk away.  It will be difficult.  We have all seen the 48 hours, dateline and 29/20 episodes of others that have walked away from cults, it’s hard even if you are well educated.  They’ve got to pull them selves up through some sort of education or trade school. They’ve got to learn about birth control is they want to feed the kids they will have. They’ve got to deal with the emotions from learning this was all a lie. 
Anna has 7 children and a supposed degree in Christian education.  Who is going to hire her for that? With this plastered all over the internet? 
what a mess.  

[Natalie68]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:44 AM, Cinnabon said:

I follow a guy on Twitter that says he worked as security for the Duggars  at that time in 2015, and that they flew to Oklahoma to avoid press and avoid CPS. This guy can’t stand them.

Honestly, I think Priscilla and David would be better support than any of the Duggars.

Interesting!  Could you DM me his handle?

 

[lascuba]

2 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

Interesting!  Could you DM me his handle?

 

I don't know if it's the same person, but there's a former bodyguard doing an AMA screen name ArtemisSailor.

 

[kaleidoscope]

ArtemisSailor said he was hired to be a bodyguard for Josh.  He described him as "a predator."  After being around all of the Duggars, he said he was Team Jill and Team Joy.

Edited December 13, 2021 by kaleidoscope

[mittsigirl]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

I think the bigger issue is that Anna will do what Anna (and Josh) want her to do, whether is' move, or visit every opportunity, or make snow angels in the front yard.  And this means she'll be regularly dumping the M's on whatever sister Aunt is around.  I can't see that Anna has been physically or mentally present for her kids in a long time.  I don't think she's capable of handling any of her kids. So unless JB is going to pay for a huge apartment or house near the prison AND for a sister-aunt to go with her, it's probably not going to happen.

I'm afraid that while she was living with Josh and the kids were dumped on a sister Aunt, that they were making baby #8. I hope I am very wrong about that, but I can see Anna wanting another baby. Because she just doesn't seem to be able to think about the future very well, or how to properly raise the 7 that she already has. In her mind she is to have as many children as possible, that's the way she was raised to think about her role in a marriage. Except she puts Josh ahead of all of those babies, so they are the ones who have lost the most.

[GeeGolly]

Other than the most recent nonsensical gossip from Miss Balls, is there any evidence Anna has been slacking on parenting?

Also, I followed part of the AMA with the bodyguard. IMO, there were a few inconsistencies. 

[SusanM]

5 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Because she just doesn't seem to be able to think about the future very well, or how to properly raise the 7 that she already has. In her mind she is to have as many children as possible, that's the way she was raised to think about her role in a marriage.

I am hoping for her sake and the sake of the kids she already has that she has come to her senses about this.  I've always believed the main reason she was starting her own dynasty, right down to picking their own letter (insert rolling eyes here) was because she figured she and Josh would be having their own show on TLC or at the very least picking up where Michelle and JB left off in terms of attention and adulation from an adoring public.  Even she can't be delusional enough to expect that to happen anymore.

[lascuba]

Quote

I’m team Anna can go fuck herself.

Ok he's passed my tests I'll believe anything he says from now one.

[Westiepeach]

15 minutes ago, kaleidoscope said:

ArtemisSailor said he was hired to be a bodyguard for Josh.  He described him as "a predator."  After being around all of the Duggars, he said he was Team Jill and Team Joy.

Can anybody send me a link to this AMA? I would love to read it.

[lascuba]

4 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Can anybody send me a link to this AMA? I would love to read it.

 

[Westiepeach]

6 minutes ago, lascuba said:

 

Thank you!

[Nysha]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:30 AM, cmr2014 said:

I think that the Jana incident is related in the sense that the TTH is probably on their radar now. There was an incident a few years back where they refused to let CPS into the house, and I don't think that's going to be an option for them going forward.

Unless CPS has a court order allowing them to enter the house and/or interview the children, refusing to give them access is always an option. To get a court order CPS will have prove there is reason to believe they are in eminent danger. 

[OpieTaylor]

22 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

I am hoping for her sake and the sake of the kids she already has that she has come to her senses about this.  I've always believed the main reason she was starting her own dynasty, right down to picking their own letter (insert rolling eyes here) was because she figured she and Josh would be having their own show on TLC or at the very least picking up where Michelle and JB left off in terms of attention and adulation from an adoring public.  Even she can't be delusional enough to expect that to happen anymore.

I fear that Anna may have a major breakdown and/or serious depression at some point

[ellenr33]

I personally feel bad for Anna. I think Anna grew up learning and hearing that "you never leave a marriage" that "things will always just get better". I truly believe that Josh always had some type of issues and instead of Jim Bob and Michelle dealing with him they kept having kid after kid. I'm very curious to see if Anna changes at all. I keep thinking about Tammy Faye staying with her husband through everything and getting a divorce while he was in prison. Maybe that will be Anna maybe him being away will make her come to her senses. I really hope that she has some revelations of her own in the next couple of years. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Other than the most recent nonsensical gossip from Miss Balls, is there any evidence Anna has been slacking on parenting?

Also, I followed part of the AMA with the bodyguard. IMO, there were a few inconsistencies. 

Yeah, I'm kind of side-eyeing as well, particularly when he said the snarkers are being too hard on Amy. Also, when he's said he's Team Jill and Team Joy. Not trying to be sexist but that doesn't read the way most men talk. My bullshit meter is pinging 

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Yeah, I'm kind of side-eyeing as well, particularly when he said the snarkers are being too hard on Amy. Also, when he's said he's Team Jill and Team Joy. Not trying to be sexist but that doesn't read the way most men talk. My bullshit meter is pinging 

He seems to be very aware of all the goings on, but very vague about any "actual interactions".

[Heathen]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:31 PM, cmr2014 said:

I don't think Josh likes his kids much (and to be honest, I don't think that he cares much for Anna's company, either).

I don't think Josh is a pedophile in the sense of being interested in or attracted to children. I don't know a lot about this subject, but it's my understanding that pedophiles choose careers and activities that put them in the company of children. The make an effort to become coaches and mentors and put themselves into a position of trust with children.

I think that Josh is turned on by cruelty toward the weak and vulnerable. Outside of that, I think he has no interest in children, including his own.

You can't generalize about pedophiles any more than you can any other group. Not all pedophiles are teachers or priests or otherwise people whose careers put them into contact with children. 

If Smuggar wasn't a pedophile and just wanted cruelty, he could have downloaded the plethora of adult bondage/sadism porn on the Internet. He went to CSAM because he's attracted to children. 

[EllaWycliffe]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Wouldn't be surprised to find him a felon with both dangerous predatory drive he's looking to satisfy -- as well as anger issues looking for an outlet.

Add in the problem that he's going to be on the sex offender list. Thats going to make any sort of "moving on" very very difficult. 

[bobalina]

1 hour ago, ellenr33 said:

I personally feel bad for Anna. I think Anna grew up learning and hearing that "you never leave a marriage" that "things will always just get better". I truly believe that Josh always had some type of issues and instead of Jim Bob and Michelle dealing with him they kept having kid after kid. I'm very curious to see if Anna changes at all. I keep thinking about Tammy Faye staying with her husband through everything and getting a divorce while he was in prison. Maybe that will be Anna maybe him being away will make her come to her senses. I really hope that she has some revelations of her own in the next couple of years. 

Tammy Faye then married a other man who went to jail. Anna would likely not make the best choice the second time around either.

[madpsych78]

I think Josh is a sex addict. Porn, live action, children, adults, it doesn't matter. The dude gets off on controlling others through sex.

[mittsigirl]

52 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

He seems to be very aware of all the goings on, but very vague about any "actual interactions".

I read somewhere that this bodyguard is a female, but I can't see JB giving a job like that to a woman, though there are many females who could handle it.

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

I read somewhere that this bodyguard is a female, but I can't see JB giving a job like that to a woman, though there are many females who could handle it.

I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking he is a guy. Some of his supposed duties was protecting Josh. That certainly wouldn't be allowed.

Edited December 13, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Zella]

His profile pic on Reddit is a bearded dude. 

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I doubt Josh told her anything about the details. I'm guessing every detail was new to Anna.

Remember she was too cowardly to listen to the details about the CP and left the courtroom.

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

He seems to be very aware of all the goings on, but very vague about any "actual interactions".

I agree that he's pretty vague, but a quick perusal of his twitter makes me think he's legit. He's been around for a while and his tweets aren't mostly about the Duggars. It's the internet and people lie all the time, of course, but it seems pretty random to start making up bullshit about the Duggars on one's main account. 

Is it too soon to start guessing how things will go when Josh is released? Because I'm picturing Anna sobbing and jumping on him like Whitney Houston did when Bobby Brown got out of prison. 

[Zella]

My guess is he was a bodyguard for them and was able to pass the verification process on Reddit to do an AMA but knows very little about anything and has exaggerated his importance and knowledge for attention.

By the end, I thought his answers were pretty disappointing and vague, especially after he'd been hyped up the way he had been. Other than porn while driving, which was weirdly specific enough for me to believe, I'm not sure he gave anything new.

Fundie tech guy, meanwhile, was a fucking gold mine earlier this week. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Zella