Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Absolom]

34 minutes ago, SMama said:

I’m amused by how people perceive JB as influential to the highest degree. JB is a country bumpkin who stumbled upon an established real estate business, and lucked out to win a seat at the state House of Representatives.

I don't think JB is influential.  I think he's a control freak who has finally gotten in over his head with a son and a situation he can't wrangle back under his control.  That's why he and Derick will probably stay on the outs.  Derick was another person/situation he couldn't control.  It was probably shocking to him.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

 

 

Basically just the news catching up to the two motions to dismiss filed last week. The first one seems like a pretty standard defense for me - they are claiming that the prosecution screwed up handling the evidence from the cell phones of other employees at the car lot - and then using that claim to slide in AND BY THE WAY, DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE OF THE EMPLOYEES WATCHED ADULT PORN? YES! I KNOW! HOW SHOCKING! AND TWO OTHER EMPLOYEES WERE QUESTIONED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND READ THEIR MIRANDA RIGHTS, in an attempt to strongly imply that one or all of these three employees, not Josh, downloaded the CSA. Which may not help Josh in federal court, but is already getting used to try to help him in the court of public opinion.

I don't know if this motion is going to hold up in federal court, largely because the prosecution is claiming that there wasn't any evidence on those cell phones to screw up handling, but the Duggars already appear to be using it in public opinion court.

The second motion is the interesting concept that the entire case has to be thrown out because the people in charge of Homeland Security, the department responsible for handling the investigation, were not exactly legally in charge of Homeland Security at the time. 

They are correct about the legal status of the HSA officials involved. But. I'm not sure a judge is going to go for this. Not just because it could probably lead to throwing out a number of convictions/investigations, with all the attendant problems there, but also because it would open up one huge loophole for the executive branch. Don't like a particular law that Congress passed? Fine! Then just make sure that all of the Cabinet secretaries charged with enforcing that law are appointed illegally and without filling out the proper paperwork!

And I'm also fairly sure that the investigators in question were and are required to enforce existing law - that is, carrying out the will of Congress - regardless of the exact legal status of any of the Cabinet secretaries.  And - perhaps most importantly - yes, the investigation was started under the past administration, BUT, the indictments were made by the current administration. 

But I'm not an attorney. I could very well be misunderstanding the specific law here, or missing some important nuance.

I just listened to Uncivil Law's take on this. He basically said that if a judge went for this, every HSI case in that time period had the potential to be thrown out. He went straight to the Constitution and showed that this motion won't fly. 

But nice try! That's why Boob is paying this guy the big bucks. 

[3 is enough]

If there is any justice in this world Josh will rot in prison and Jim Bob will go broke trying to prevent it from happening.

[Minivanessa]

A few thoughts from a retired lawyer, as to JB "paying the bills and calling the shots" in Josh's defense. I wouldn't assume the latter part of that statement to be true even if the first part is. As has been discussed above, Josh's lawyers represent *Josh* no matter where the money comes from to pay their fees.

The issue of third parties paying legal fees in criminal and other types of cases, is specifically addressed in the codes and rules of ethics governing lawyers - rules which can result in disbarment if violated. Generally, third party payment is allowed if these conditions are met: : (1) the client gives informed consent; (2) there is no interference with the lawyer’s independent judgment or the client-lawyer relationship; and (3) information relating to the representation is protected from disclosure. Remember, in this situation Josh is the client. That third condition means that unless Josh gives informed consent, the lawyers can't brief JB (or whoever's paying the fee) on the details of the case. A Colorado ethics opinion discusses this in depth; I believe the details may vary from state to state since each state has its own set of rules, but I think this is generally the way it would work in most US jurisdictions and it's addressed in these terms in some ABA publications.

BTW, when I took an excellent criminal defense practice course in law school 40+ (!!) years ago (yep), that third party payer scenario was one of the first lessons the instructor presented.

I'm 101% sure Josh's lawyers have covered this in their fee agreement, as they appear to have been successfully engaged in a criminal defense practice for awhile now. 

I've seen enough of Josh's behavior as reported over the years, to think that he'd be inclined to passively allow JB a lot of input into his case. But - we do not know if his lawyers (not Travis Story - the REAL defense lawyers) would agree to operate that way. 

Of course anything can happen, but I'm inclined to think this isn't the lawyers' first rodeo and they aren't going to be taking orders from or discussing confidential case matters with JB. It's pleasant to think of JB being thwarted when trying to throw his weight around in that scenario. Heh.

OTOH as @Lady Jane has mentioned, you can work your butt off to advise your clients on how to behave, and explain confidentiality to them, but it can be an uphill battle that you don't always win. I'd like to think Josh's lawyers have made it clear that he needs to STFU even with JB, but who knows what he'll do?

I'm still on the side of thinking that JB and Josh have met their match with these St. Louis [I think it's St. Louis?] lawyers, who don't give a sh*t about TLC or Bill Gothard or Duggarworld, and can probably chew up tinpot "patriarchs" like JB and spit them out without breaking a sweat. Hey, it's a fun thing to imagine anyway.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Jeeves

[merylinkid]

14 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

A few thoughts from a retired lawyer, as to JB "paying the bills and calling the shots" in Josh's defense. I wouldn't assume the latter part of that statement to be true even if the first part is. As has been discussed above, Josh's lawyers represent *Josh* no matter where the money comes from to pay their fees.

The issue of third parties paying legal fees in criminal and other types of cases, is specifically addressed in the codes and rules of ethics governing lawyers - rules which can result in disbarment if violated. Generally, third party payment is allowed if these conditions are met: : (1) the client gives informed consent; (2) there is no interference with the lawyer’s independent judgment or the client-lawyer relationship; and (3) information relating to the representation is protected from disclosure. Remember, in this situation Josh is the client. That third condition means that unless Josh gives informed consent, the lawyers can't brief JB (or whoever's paying the fee) on the details of the case. A Colorado ethics opinion discusses this in depth; I believe the details may vary from state to state since each state has its own set of rules, but I think this is generally the way it would work in most US jurisdictions and it's addressed in these terms in some ABA publications.

BTW, when I took an excellent criminal defense practice course in law school 40+ (!!) years ago (yep), that third party payer scenario was one of the first lessons the instructor presented.

I'm 101% sure Josh's lawyers have covered this in their fee agreement, as they appear to have been successfully engaged in a criminal defense practice for awhile now. 

I've seen enough of Josh's behavior as reported over the years, to think that he'd be inclined to passively allow JB a lot of input into his case. But - we do not know if his lawyers (not Travis Story - the REAL defense lawyers) would agree to operate that way. 

Of course anything can happen, but I'm inclined to think this isn't the lawyers' first rodeo and they aren't going to be taking orders from or discussing confidential case matters with JB. It's pleasant to think of JB being thwarted when trying to throw his weight around in that scenario. Heh.

OTOH as @Lady Jane has mentioned, you can work your butt off to advise your clients on how to behave, and explain confidentiality to them, but it can be an uphill battle that you don't always win. I'd like to think Josh's lawyers have made it clear that he needs to STFU even with JB, but who knows what he'll do?

I'm still on the side of thinking that JB and Josh have met their match with these St. Louis [I think it's St. Louis?] lawyers, who don't give a sh*t about TLC or Bill Gothard or Duggarworld, and can probably chew up tinpot "patriarchs" like JB and spit them out without breaking a sweat. Hey, it's a fun thing to imagine anyway.

Pretty much all of this.   These lawyers are NOT risking their law licenses just to keep Head Idiot happy.   They could give two farts how happy he is.   They have a job to do and they will do it EXTREMELY WELL.  But they are not going to file stuff crackpot stuff just because JB asked them to.   They aren't even going to do it if JOSH askes them to.   They will explain to Josh WHY they aren't filing.   Josh can insist, but if he does, then they can withdraw.   

This case is NOT work their law licenses.    Any publicity they get out of it is so they can get hired in the future -- not because they are helping Head Idiot promote himself.   Head Idiot probably THINKS he can impress them with how "important" he is.   But to them, he's just the guy signing the (large) checks.    Josh is just another case file to them.    

[MsJamieDornan]

6 hours ago, SMama said:

I’m amused by how people perceive JB as influential to the highest degree. JB is a country bumpkin

Perfectly said. Thank you.

[hathorlive]

6 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Pretty much all of this.   These lawyers are NOT risking their law licenses just to keep Head Idiot happy.   They could give two farts how happy he is.   They have a job to do and they will do it EXTREMELY WELL.  But they are not going to file stuff crackpot stuff just because JB asked them to.   They aren't even going to do it if JOSH askes them to.   They will explain to Josh WHY they aren't filing.   Josh can insist, but if he does, then they can withdraw.   

This case is NOT work their law licenses.    Any publicity they get out of it is so they can get hired in the future -- not because they are helping Head Idiot promote himself.   Head Idiot probably THINKS he can impress them with how "important" he is.   But to them, he's just the guy signing the (large) checks.    Josh is just another case file to them.    

The St. Louis lawyers' website says it all.  They'll attack anything to win a not guilty conviction.  They state emphatically that they will attack witnesses without mercy.  The logic is that you attack the initial search, the evidence, the search warrant.  Then you attack the people who conducted it (re: see OJ Simpson trial).  If that fails, you go into court and attack the witnesses.  You don't wait until the trial to start your attack.  You paper the court with  motions and hope that something sticks.  They are doing what they've been paid to do.  I don't think it's going to work, but it's better than walking into court and starting your defense the day of the trial.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

The St. Louis lawyers' website says it all.  They'll attack anything to win a not guilty conviction.  They state emphatically that they will attack witnesses without mercy.  The logic is that you attack the initial search, the evidence, the search warrant.  Then you attack the people who conducted it (re: see OJ Simpson trial).  If that fails, you go into court and attack the witnesses.  You don't wait until the trial to start your attack.  You paper the court with  motions and hope that something sticks.  They are doing what they've been paid to do.  I don't think it's going to work, but it's better than walking into court and starting your defense the day of the trial.

Good to know that the lawyers' aggressive representation job in Josh's case is their usual type of representation. That tells me that JB and Josh hired them in full knowledge that would be their case strategy - and what it would cost. I think they were hired well before Josh's arrest warrant was issued (I know, he wasn't arrested but turned himself in). So, the aggressive motions the defense has filed aren't because the lawyers are dancing to JB's tune while he pulls the strings. It's more like, JB hired a heavy metal band for this party and that's the music he's getting. Unless the lawyers are fools (which I doubt), JB's not getting to specify the playlist. The details of case strategy are between the lawyers and their client, Josh.

It doesn't surprise me that JB and Meech would hire such aggressive lawyers to save their most precious child from the evil government's charges. I wonder how those two are dealing with the grim reality of a federal felony case now that it's happening. I suppose they will keep their happy faces on in public. I also wonder if JB or Meech were surprised by TLC's cancelling their show. So far they've lost their TV platform and thousands of dollars in attorneys' fees because of Josh. I suppose they'll just keep on doubling down on their faith that their correct Jesus will somehow save Josh from Satan's clutches.

I don't think JD's any kind of hero, but I respect him for distancing himself from Josh years ago.  I hope some of his siblings have followed his lead. Now that the show is history, JB and Meech may have less power to force the sibs and spouses to do the "one hyooge happy family" public photo poses and made-for-TV-and-social-media gatherings. Now that there's no show to promote, it's everybody for themselves (and generally the married kids each have big numbers on social media to exploit although they don't seem to know how to do it well). I suppose the M kids are loved and I hope they aren't being mistreated. But for sure, if I were one of the Duggar married sons, I would be OVER Josh big time, and I hope most or all of them actually are. Given that JB still controls those kidults via Duggar Enterprises, they may not openly rebel - but I bet it's not all sweetness and Jesus-y singsongs inside the extended family either.

[Tikichick]

16 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

I just want to note that even if JB is paying the bills, that does not change attorney-client confidentiality. He may tell the lawyers what he wants them to do, but their only ethical obligations are to the court and to Josh. They cannot discuss THEIR impressions or strategy with JB. 

 

16 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Even if Josh gives them permission?

 

16 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I’m thinking it’s not a good idea. Discussions covered under confidentiality would go out the window if someone else was included, I would think. Then, that person could be called as a witness, and questioned about a meeting.

 

*Not an attorney, never a defendant. 😁

 

16 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

 

Well, Josh could give them "permission" but that would remove the attorney-client protection. If you disclose confidential information covered by attorney-client privilege, the disclosure to ANY third party (including your parents, spouse, children, ANYONE) invalidates the privilege for that information. 

I have beat the rules of confidentiality into innumerable clients, only to have them go home and tell their dad/mom/spouse/dog-walker about the confidential information in their case. That makes whatever they told these third parties no longer covered by the attorney-client privilege, and fully discoverable by the other side.

So yes, Josh and JB are dumb enough to ignore this.

An attorney worth their salt isn't going to be dumb enough to ignore this.  To do so would open up not only ineffective assistance of counsel appellate issues, but grounds to pursue malpractice claims.   

From what I've heard about lead counsel on Josh's case and what I've seen watching criminal defense attorneys practice over the years is that, particularly among high profile/top dollar attorneys, they compose the tune the client dances to -- particularly when dealing with personalities with tendencies to control and manipulate, such as addicts and/or sexual predators.  These attorneys are successful precisely because of their specific skillset and they don't suffer fools gladly and aren't even a little bit shy about bringing their own propensity to control the situation in service of their ultimate goal -- winning the case outright, or at the very least achieving the optimal outcome possible in the circumstances for their client.  

JB is limited to whatever crumbs he is able to bully out of Josh -- while Josh has no doubt received very no nonsense and intense instructions about keeping his mouth shut, period.  Wouldn't be one bit surprised to find out that JB has been told in no uncertain terms to stay out of it and keep his mouth shut or risk the attorney walking away and washing his hands.  

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

From what I've heard about lead counsel on Josh's case and what I've seen watching criminal defense attorneys practice over the years is that, particularly among high profile/top dollar attorneys, they compose the tune the client dances to -- particularly when dealing with personalities with tendencies to control and manipulate, such as addicts and/or sexual predators.  These attorneys are successful precisely because of their specific skillset and they don't suffer fools gladly and aren't even a little bit shy about bringing their own propensity to control the situation in service of their ultimate goal -- winning the case outright, or at the very least achieving the optimal outcome possible in the circumstances for their client.  

JB is limited to whatever crumbs he is able to bully out of Josh -- while Josh has no doubt received very no nonsense and intense instructions about keeping his mouth shut, period.  Wouldn't be one bit surprised to find out that JB has been told in no uncertain terms to stay out of it and keep his mouth shut or risk the attorney walking away and washing his hands.  

Thanks for this. It's about what I thought (and hoped) the situation would be as to JB's role in Josh's defense. Essentially he's writing the checks. And, as you said, no doubt still pushing Josh around and bullying him for information.  

[JoanArc]

Josh's Rehab Church in trouble

Quote

Plautz says there’s a large number of survivors to support, “At this point we’ve talked to 21 females who say they were sexually abused at North Love or one of the related ministries.”

“There’s no vindictiveness in what we are doing. There’s heartache. Such heartache,” said Kyra DeBerry, who attended North Love for the first 26 years of her life - graduating from both the high school and Bible College.

“I would love to be able to return to North Love some day and have it be a church that I feel safe at and feel safe bringing my children to. I don’t let my children go there,” she said.

DeBerry told 23 News that she co-founded the support group to help survivors.

“Three of my friends told me that they had abuse that was covered up at North Love,” she said. “We sat at home later and said, ‘How do we know this information and not do anything about it?’”

Group leaders say all of the alleged abuses have taken place under the watch of Reformers Unanimous co-founder Paul Kingsbury. Kingsbury was a pastor at North Love Church from 1982 until last week.

“The Deacons have unanimously accepted Pastor Kingsbury’s resignation effective immediately,” said North Love Head Deacon Doug Stodola.

 

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Thanks for this. It's about what I thought (and hoped) the situation would be as to JB's role in Josh's defense. Essentially he's writing the checks. And, as you said, no doubt still pushing Josh around and bullying him for information.  

JB has to be well aware that, despite his very best efforts for many, many years now, Josh has not and is not someone his tactics have been capable to bring to heel.  He knows darn well that Josh is entirely capable of deceiving him, no matter how many measures JB puts in place.   Even threatening to pull the financial support for the legal defense would pretty clearly be an empty threat, because Josh isn't unaware that JB's image and legacy are on the line right along with Josh's freedom.  

The sole person IMO who has any hold over Josh currently is his lead defense attorney, who has no doubt spelled things out for him in chilling detail -- and who is the only one with any ability to improve Josh's odds at all.

If Josh is sharing anything with JB it's either what his lawyer has spoonfed him as free to share, or whatever nonsense Josh dreams up to pacify JB the emperor with no clothes.   The great danger being that JB can be compelled to testify.  It would be hella entertaining to watch JB get grilled on the stand and very confidently share some info that Josh confided in him because he's sure it exonerates him -- only to have it shredded as patently false under blistering cross examination by the prosecution.  

It will be interesting to see if this goes to trial, or if the brakes come on at the very last chance and they attempt to cut a deal.   If they don't make any ground excluding evidence a plea becomes more and more likely to stem the bleeding.          

[andromeda331]

46 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Josh's Rehab Church in trouble

 

I wish I could be surprised by that.

[Minivanessa]

51 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

It would be hella entertaining to watch JB get grilled on the stand and very confidently share some info that Josh confided in him because he's sure it exonerates him -- only to have it shredded as patently false under blistering cross examination by the prosecution.  

From your keyboard to God's ears. If Arkansas weren't such a COVID hotspot, I would make the road trip so I could sit in the courtroom, if there was any chance of getting to watch that. But I haven't looked up the current practices of that court as to in-person hearings, trials, etc., so that might not be possible anyway.

[Nysha]

14 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I've seen enough of Josh's behavior as reported over the years, to think that he'd be inclined to passively allow JB a lot of input into his case. But - we do not know if his lawyers (not Travis Story - the REAL defense lawyers) would agree to operate that way. 

I wonder if JB would be willing to lean on Travis Story for information and pass his suggestion through Story? That's one lawyer who doesn't seem very bright or ethical.

[Rootbeer]

27 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I wonder if JB would be willing to lean on Travis Story for information and pass his suggestion through Story? That's one lawyer who doesn't seem very bright or ethical.

Even if he did, I cannot imagine that Josh' REAL lawyers, the ones who know what they're doing, would allow any of it to affect their handling of the case.  I'd expect they'd tell Story to sit down and shut up if he was getting in their way.

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Josh's Rehab Church in trouble

 

Never trust a church called "North Love." (or "South Love" or "Reformers Unanimous" either, for that matter.) 

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Even if he did, I cannot imagine that Josh' REAL lawyers, the ones who know what they're doing, would allow any of it to affect their handling of the case.  I'd expect they'd tell Story to sit down and shut up if he was getting in their way.

More than likely, Story's only role in the defense is being a member of the Arkansas bar.  I don't think the hired guns are licensed to practice there, so that's why they need a local attorney.  He is probably NOT involved in the day to day activities.

[MaryAnneSpier]

It makes me sad for Josh's siblings to have had their childhoods and young adult life pimped out for all to see and then see that money spent on Josh to get out of even more legal trouble. I wonder if JB and Michelle would be this involved and supportive if any of their offspring, besides the blessed golden boy, were caught in the same situations Josh has? Methinks they wouldn't. 

[GeeGolly]

I think Josh wasn't quite as golden after the molestations. He was still cocky and arrogant, but a think the shininess wore off for JB & M. They quickly pivoted to their Golden Girls. Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger were the ones who got all the attention, except when Anna popped out another baby and when the family moved.

I think JB would fight for any of his kids, even Josiah. First because and loves them and second because he has his reputation to protect.

[MaryAnneSpier]

52 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Josh wasn't quite as golden after the molestations. He was still cocky and arrogant, but a think the shininess wore off for JB & M. They quickly pivoted to their Golden Girls. Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger were the ones who got all the attention, except when Anna popped out another baby and when the family moved.

I think JB would fight for any of his kids, even Josiah. First because and loves them and second because he has his reputation to protect.

I think their "attention" on the girls was purely for the purposes of marketing. They were selling the idea of modest, pretty virgins who solely want to be a wife and mother in a modern world. The oldest girls were the ones who "wrote" a book about courtships. It was merely a profitable angle to work to the public; in private though, I think Josh was viewed by his parents in the same high esteem and privileged position in the family. 

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

I think their "attention" on the girls was purely for the purposes of marketing. They were selling the idea of modest, pretty virgins who solely want to be a wife and mother in a modern world. The oldest girls were the ones who "wrote" a book about courtships. It was merely a profitable angle to work to the public; in private though, I think Josh was viewed by his parents in the same high esteem and privileged position in the family. 

That's interesting. I felt there were little peeks here and there, that lead me to believe they couldn't wait for Josh to marry and move out. I got the impression that Josh was the only one who didn't know he was knocked off the pedestal.

The girls on the other hand were shining examples of all of JB's & M's hard work as Fundy parents. The four that would consistently say and do the rights things. I'm not sure their book was profitable, but it helped them push their soul saving agenda.

[ozziemom]

Marrying off Josh solved a few problems for Boob and Meechelle and also started the 200 grandkids parade. Plus Josh became Anna’s responsibility to watch.

[JoanArc]

8 hours ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

I think their "attention" on the girls was purely for the purposes of marketing. They were selling the idea of modest, pretty virgins who solely want to be a wife and mother in a modern world. The oldest girls were the ones who "wrote" a book about courtships. It was merely a profitable angle to work to the public; in private though, I think Josh was viewed by his parents in the same high esteem and privileged position in the family. 

Fwiw The girls book was published before the molestations were public. Not long before, kind of like Jingle’s new book.

Edited August 26, 2021 by JoanArc

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Josh wasn't quite as golden after the molestations. He was still cocky and arrogant, but a think the shininess wore off for JB & M. They quickly pivoted to their Golden Girls. Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger were the ones who got all the attention, except when Anna popped out another baby and when the family moved.

I think JB would fight for any of his kids, even Josiah. First because and loves them and second because he has his reputation to protect.

I think Josh was still golden in the eyes of JB and Michelle until the molestations were made public and the Ashley Madison scandal where he was shipped off to Jesus Jail. At that point his misdeeds were public knowledge and had the ability to hinder their ability to make money. 

Even from the days of the early specials I could tell the older kids did NOT like Josh very much, I thought it was just because he was an arrogant asshole- they were certainly glad to see him gone. 

I think JB and Michelle did know that the oldest four girls RAN the household and nothing could get done without them. Did they appreciate them as much as they should? Maybe not, but they were not exactly ignorant to the work they put in to make the family run. Josh never did anything to help the family as a whole, compared to Jana- Joe, who actually took on leadership roles.

[Tabbygirl521]

On 8/25/2021 at 10:15 AM, JoanArc said:

Josh's Rehab Church in trouble

 

And more evidence of why this fundie cult thinks all families contains sexual deviants. Because they’re surrounded by it. 

[BigBingerBro]

Josh Duggar’s Arrest: Why Jim Bob Duggar May Prevent Josh From Going to Trial

[Lady Jane]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:16 AM, Jeeves said:

From your keyboard to God's ears. If Arkansas weren't such a COVID hotspot, I would make the road trip so I could sit in the courtroom, if there was any chance of getting to watch that. But I haven't looked up the current practices of that court as to in-person hearings, trials, etc., so that might not be possible anyway.

The Constitution requires trials to be speedy and public. There will be some seats allocated to the general public in the gallery. Like the Simpson trial, Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson -- there will likely be a demand for those seats. Unlike those trials though, this is in federal court, so while those were broadcast on TV, the federal judiciary prohibits broadcast. That's why in federal court cases you get those courtroom sketches rather than photos or a broadcast.

On 8/25/2021 at 3:09 PM, hathorlive said:

More than likely, Story's only role in the defense is being a member of the Arkansas bar.  I don't think the hired guns are licensed to practice there, so that's why they need a local attorney.  He is probably NOT involved in the day to day activities.

Yes, they'll need a local AR attorney to associate in with counsel out of state. His out of state lawyers will have filed an application to appear pro hac vice, or temporary authorization to practice in another jurisdiction. The AR lawyer is mostly required just so they have an in-state place where they can be served. The same set of federal rules apply across the country, but there will be local rules and local-local rules that may trip up an out of state attorney, even if they're familiar with federal practice.

TBH, courts and juries also treat out-of-state counsel with a certain disdain. Like "why are you coming to our state and taking work away from this state's lawyers?" (This is also much more likely to be the case in a small jurisdiction. In my experience, judges love to try to trip up the out-of-state counsel, and juries resent them, especially "Big City Lawyers.")

The out-of-state lawyers won't give even the tiniest fuck what JB wants. He can advise his kid all he wants, but at the end of the day, Josh is their client and they can only take direction from him.

I imagine that when JB is called to testify (I assume he will be as the founder of the business and maybe still has a hand in the business) there might be some level of "on the advice of my counsel, I decline to respond on Fifth Amendment grounds" which would be delightful. I have no doubt that if he does that, our intrepid board members will investigate their hearts out, and probably figure out what JB was hiding! 

Oh, last thing. The case will be tried in the Western District of Arkansas court, which pulls jury members from that entire part of the state (in state court they would be pulled from the county). Josh may pull some out-of-towners who have never heard of him and don't give 2 shits about JB/Duggars except for resenting the fact that the Duggars are horrible representatives of their state.

This concludes my Ted Talk on Federal Trial Procedure! (Sorry the law is so f'in boring.)

[Quilt Fairy]

13 minutes ago, Lady Jane said:

The Constitution requires trials to be speedy and public. There will be some seats allocated to the general public in the gallery. Like the Simpson trial, Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson -- there will likely be a demand for those seats. Unlike those trials though, this is in federal court, so while those were broadcast on TV, the federal judiciary prohibits broadcast. That's why in federal court cases you get those courtroom sketches rather than photos or a broadcast.

Are Federal trials still being held via Zoom?  How does that affect the public's ability to observe? 

[Lady Jane]

4 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Are Federal trials still being held via Zoom?  How does that affect the public's ability to observe? 

The defendant's right to a fair "public trial" is satisfied by press and public being allowed in the courtroom to observe. Here are the relevant rules as of today:

 Public access to trial (and motions and blah blah blah): "Effective July 1, 2021, members of the press and public may enter courthouse property, and may observe in-courtroom proceedings subject to the assigned judge’s safety protocols and courtroom capacity limitations.  Some hearings may continue to be held remotely and will be accessible only by teleconference, videoconference, or other remote means." 

Telephonic access has been around since long before I started practice, but each judge can refuse to allow telephonic appearances in their courtroom, unless that would prejudice the defense. Zoom access is new and on the court's site, there are details on each courtroom and Zoom links so you can observe. That's how they addressed "public trial" during Covid.

BUT, while you can observe in person, on the phone, on Zoom: "TAKE NOTE: Persons granted remote access to proceedings are reminded of the general prohibition against photographing, recording, and rebroadcasting of court proceedings (including those held by telephone or videoconference). . . Any recording of a court proceeding held by video or teleconference, including “screen-shots” or other visual copying of a hearing, is absolutely prohibited.  Violation of these prohibitions may result in sanctions, including removal of court-issued media credentials, restricted entry to future hearings, denial of entry to future hearings, or any other sanctions deemed necessary by the court."

So the public can observe, but cannot photo, record, screen-shot etc.

The right to a public trial is how we avoid secret trials, deprivation of Constitutional rights, etc. Think of secret trials in China, DPRK, Russia, etc. 

I can't be the only one who will probably log into Zoom just to see some of the bullshit. I want to see Josh's pasty, terrified mug when he realized those chickens he thought he outsmarted have indeed come home to roost.

Which Duggars do you think will be there in court to "support" Josh, and who do you think will be called to testify?

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Lady Jane said:

Which Duggars do you think will be there in court to "support" Josh, and who do you think will be called to testify?

I don't know if anyone other than Anna and possibly JB and Michelle will show up to "support" Josh. To support Anna, JB and Michelle, maybe, but not Josh.  I mean, here he is, facing federal trial, and there most of the adult Duggarlings are, cheerfully telling everyone on Instagram/YouTube just how great life is right now, what with Dodgers games and amateur softball and Vegas shopping and cute babies and six month anniversaries and whatever, with an obvious and distinct lack of "pray for us in this difficult time." 

In terms of getting called to testify - I'm guessing whichever Duggarlings were employed at the car lot during the investigation? 

[crazy8s]

So no one is thinking a parade of all duggar siblings, with spouses, and the grands filing into court behind JB and Michelle, in matching outfits and in birth order to support JoshUa??

the idea of that just makes me laugh

Edited August 30, 2021 by crazy8s

[all fall down]

Didn't Jill and Amy supposedly attend some of the first court appearances? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the siblings attend, especially the older girls. Or maybe Jill & Amy on their own, and then someone else to represent the family that is still under JB's authority. 

[emmawoodhouse]

11 minutes ago, christine falls said:

Didn't Jill and Amy supposedly attend some of the first court appearances? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the siblings attend, especially the older girls. Or maybe Jill & Amy on their own, and then someone else to represent the family that is still under JB's authority. 

The hearing was all done virtually. I know Famy watched via Zoom. Not sure about Jill.

[MsJamieDornan]

13 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

The out-of-state lawyers won't give even the tiniest fuck what JB wants. He can advise his kid all he wants, but at the end of the day, Josh is their client and they can only take direction from him.

 

But, we know that JBoob cant keep his big mouth shut or his nose out of the whole thing.

[GeeGolly]

90 days until the court case and I'm assuming M7 will arrive sometime in the next 60 days, but my guess is in the next 30. I wonder if Anna is planning on delivering at the Rebers. I can't imagine she wouldn't. I can see her waking up in the middle of the night and riding over with Michelle and Jana.

[MargeGunderson]

She’s had six births, she should know by now that Josh doesn’t care if he’s there or not.

[Lisa418722]

19 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

She’s had six births, she should know by now that Josh doesn’t care if he’s there or not.

I think this time he will pretend to be the dutiful father who is oh so concerned about Anna and M7.  He might think this would look good to the attorneys and the judge.   

[libgirl2]

12 minutes ago, Lisa418722 said:

I think this time he will pretend to be the dutiful father who is oh so concerned about Anna and M7.  He might think this would look good to the attorneys and the judge.   

I totally agree.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, MargeGunderson said:

She’s had six births, she should know by now that Josh doesn’t care if he’s there or not.

No doubt Anna knows, but she probably would like him there.

[BetyBee]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

90 days until the court case and I'm assuming M7 will arrive sometime in the next 60 days, but my guess is in the next 30. I wonder if Anna is planning on delivering at the Rebers. I can't imagine she wouldn't. I can see her waking up in the middle of the night and riding over with Michelle and Jana.

I wonder how many bathrooms the Rebers have? I can just see Mr. Reber getting up to pee in the middle of the night and having to hold it because Anna's busily giving birth on the toilet! While Josh sleeps, blissfully unaware of the miracle.

[BigBingerBro]

30 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

because Anna's busily giving birth on the toilet!

Well if Sex Pest does wind up being sent to prison and she needs money, she could always write a "How to Successfully have a Toilet Birth" book!

[zoomama]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

90 days until the court case and I'm assuming M7 will arrive sometime in the next 60 days, but my guess is in the next 30. I wonder if Anna is planning on delivering at the Rebers. I can't imagine she wouldn't. I can see her waking up in the middle of the night and riding over with Michelle and Jana.

for some reason, i have long understood that the birth of M7 would be around my birthday late in august. i dont remember why i think that, i guess it was the time frame predicted in the early days and i used my birthday to associate the timing. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, zoomama said:

for some reason, i have long understood that the birth of M7 would be around my birthday late in august. i dont remember why i think that, i guess it was the time frame predicted in the early days and i used my birthday to associate the timing. 

I think most of us were surprised when Anna said she was due in the Fall, because she was showing at Henry's birthday. I wouldn't be shocked if it was any day now.

Happy Belated Birthday!

[Westiepeach]

Do you think they would publicly announce the birth of poor little M7? Surely that will stir up the whole current paternal background situation…

[lookeyloo]

Maybe M7 is already on the scene.

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Do you think they would publicly announce the birth of poor little M7? Surely that will stir up the whole current paternal background situation…

Anna made no mention of Meredith until she was 3 weeks old, and I believe she was born a few months after the last scandal, so I'm not sure anyone will mention M7. Maybe we'll hear a report of Anna Duggar and her newborn visiting Josh at the Rebers.

[Tikichick]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:51 PM, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar’s Arrest: Why Jim Bob Duggar May Prevent Josh From Going to Trial

The reasoning in the article is entirely plausible.

Bottom line, the only one who will make the call about going to trial or not, no matter what kind of pressure and advice will be given will be Josh.  Smartest move is to follow precisely what his lead attorney recommends because it's the one place he's guaranteed to receive informed and knowledgeable counsel from someone with no other agenda than achieving the optimal outcome.  

[Churchhoney]

28 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Smartest move is to follow precisely what his lead attorney recommends because it's the one place he's guaranteed to receive informed and knowledgeable counsel from someone with no other agenda than achieving the optimal outcome.  

I feel I know so little about Josh that I have absolutely no idea whether he is now or has ever been a person who would do that or whether he's a person who's delusional, basing his decisions on some stupid image that's inside his own head. 

 

[Absolom]

45 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Bottom line, the only one who will make the call about going to trial or not, no matter what kind of pressure and advice will be given will be Josh. 

It will be Josh's decision, but if JB cuts off the money, Josh might end up going to trial with a different legal team or changing his mind.