Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Tikichick]

Just now, mynextmistake said:

I don’t think anyone is “baying” for the kids to be removed for vengeance. If Anna is willing to take the requisite steps to keep them safe, then there’s no reason to remove them. What I think we are saying is that Josh is dangerous, that Anna has a history of standing by her man no matter what, and that we don’t trust Anna to keep the kids fsafe. If that is the case — if she continues to allow Josh to have access to his kids knowing he has a history of molesting children and is now charged with possessing pornographic images of children under 12 — the kids would be better off being removed from her care. They are at vulnerable ages and their father is a predator. If their mom continues to be an enabler, then they are safer living somewhere else. And I highly doubt they would go to strangers — that family is so big that I’m sure CPS would find someone suitably protective to take them. 

 

 

He's behind bars, it's already been stated his bail provisions wouldn't allow him to return home with children, and IMO it's highly unlikely he is acquitted and returns home while they are still under age.  

I routinely work with cases where children are removed from home.   Given Josh's current charges and his known past history CPS will be on it should Josh be given some kind of ability to return home.  Anna will be presented with a safety plan that informs her that if she elects to reside with Josh they will be seeking an order of the court to remove the children.  Even if Josh were to somehow get a miraculous reprieve and all these charges disappear, I expect CPS would be likely to take a keen interest in their family.

I'm very, very skeptical any miracles are on the horizon in this case that they have been probing for over a year.   Remember, all of the information didn't come from the raid -- somehow or another Josh made it onto the radar, triggering the warrant in the first place.  Seems he may not have gotten much more savvy or sophisticated about his online activities since his last, much more benign, go round.   

[CSunshine76]

Disgusting pervert needs to rot in jail. What a sick bastard.

[madpsych78]

One count is receipt, the other count is possession.

[Zella]

14 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Maybe it’s not fair that the rest of the Duggars are “punished” for Josh’s (alleged) crimes by having their TV show and influencer gigs cancelled, but that’s how it goes, especially when the entire narrative is that they are a wholesome Christian family whose claim to fame is having lots of kids. If the charges were white collar, it wouldn’t be as big of a deal. But the nature of the charges and the whole Duggar image are diametrically opposed. 

This is where I am.

I really feel sorry for his siblings who are undoubtedly being retraumatized by these revelations and who are going to have to deal with people being utter assholes to them on social media over this. I think they forgave Josh because that's what was required of them and what they were taught to believe and that he has continued to show that attitude toward him was unmerited. That's on Josh (and on their parents because they enabled him and taught them that they must keep sweet and forgive), not on them. 

At the same time, they don't have a God-given right to a TV show, and I am not sure any channel would want to keep a show of this type on the air, especially a show with declining viewer numbers, with this sort of allegation floating around. And I would not be surprised if some of the kids want out of the show at this point. I know JD was said to be very angry at Josh over the Ashley Madison thing. I'd venture to say he and some of the others are really pissed at Josh over this too and may resent the idea of being obligated to be a public figure on a reality TV show at this stage with this sort of scandal swirling. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Zella

[Future Cat Lady]

If JB & Michelle knew about this, they still let their own minor children around him. That tells me that they’re not taking those accusations seriously.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, madpsych78 said:

One count is receipt, the other count is possession.

No manufacturing or publishing, which would indicate they had information he was producing any material.  

[Kellyee]

Quote

I like them. And IMO they bear no blame at all for what Josh has done, and should not be held accountable, forced to explain themselves or suffer consequences from actions that they did not do. 

I feel badly for Jinger and Jeremy, and really all the siblings. They may be annoying, but they don't deserve this. They have a book coming out next week, and Josh pulls this shit, and suddenly they are forced to defend the family. For the third time, again because of Josh. And I believe Jinger about the stigma of being Josh's sister when this crap is going on. 

I laugh at these people, but they're really not BAD people. They don't deserve what Josh is putting them through.

 

 

 

 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Future Cat Lady said:

If JB & Michelle knew about this, they still let their own minor children around him. That tells me that they’re not taking those accusations seriously.

And their other grandchildren. 

[Marshmallow Mollie]

I wonder if Jinger saw the writing on the wall, realized there are people out there that look at pictures of children differently, and that’s why she stopped posting pictures of her children. To be sure, I am in no way implying she thought Josh had an unhealthy interest in her children, etc.

[Tabbygirl521]

1 hour ago, Chicklet said:

I'm sure a fair number of leg humpers will excuse Josh due to Satan causing this behavior. 

Anna may not have known what was going on since it sounds like he used the computer at the car lot. But she should have realized something was hinky after all the property sold and was put in her name only. Sure would have made me suspicious but then I have an education.

Someone who was already arrested might have ratted out Josh, who knows.

It’s so funny how I barely ever go to church and yet I’m not out committing offenses against others at all. You’d think people like me would be easy targets for Satan. Maybe I’m not enough of a challenge, as a devout churchgoer would be. 

[CountryGirl]

I had a very bad feeling it would be something along the line of these charges.

I wish more than you know, especially for those poor children of his, that it had been anything else but this.

I have had some empathy for Anna because I cannot fathom how her upbringing (or lack thereof) gave her any foundation to process, let alone cope or take action. I mean, she didn't even know the correct anatomical terms for male and female sexual parts or the mechanics leading up to her wedding as one example of how stunted/sheltered she was. 

But after this?

When he's claimed to be a changed man?

If she supports and defends him after this and especially if he is found guilty (which seems a foregone conclusion given the gravity and nature of the charges and the length of the investigation), then I am going to lose sympathy for her and while it would be awful for those innocent children to have even more upheaval than they already have had in their short lives, I think they should be removed from her care (and not put into the hands of the Duggars, except perhaps Jill). If Anna cannot be trusted to put their needs first, which as their mother, she should, and cares more about her precious JoshUA, then someone else needs to step in.

On another note and this is not meant to admonish or police, but we as a society need to look at the phrase "child pornography" and reframe that. I have always hated the phrase as calling it child porn/CP seems to suggest, no matter how subliminally, that the child has some sort of autonomy and holds some responsibility for the creation and existence of the material. It is, as stated in the indictment, "material depicting sexual abuse of children" or, alternatively, sexually abusive images of children. 

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

If JB & Michelle knew about this, they still let their own minor children around him. That tells me that they’re not taking those accusations seriously.

 

1 minute ago, Zella said:

And their other grandchildren. 

I agree, but I also feel this cruise left the dock almost two decades ago, when they found out what he was doing in their own home, covered it up and made the victims almost more culpable than the offender!   These people deserve to be absolutely denounced by civilized society.

[Natalie68]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Josh's statement following charges:

I apologize to my wife, kids and family. Satan came back and built a new fortress. Please allow us privacy during this trying time.

While we walk through fire

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I wonder if Jinger saw the writing on the wall, realized there are people out there that look at pictures of children differently, and that’s why she stopped posting pictures of her children. To be sure, I am in no way implying she thought Josh had an unhealthy interest in her children, etc.

If there is any silver lining to this, it is that I really hope all the Duggars stop posting pictures of their kids on social media. Beyond it being a privacy violation, it is dangerous. 

[WinnieWinkle]

8 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

If JB & Michelle knew about this, they still let their own minor children around him. That tells me that they’re not taking those accusations seriously.

I know people who got sucked into fundie hell and the big takeway watching that hot mess from afar is how the men are never at fault.  Ever. 

Even if they believe that Josh did what he's accused of doing somehow the spin in their heads is that he's an innocent victim.  Usually they blame the woman (if it's an accusation of rape or marital infidelity), not sure who they will blame in this case but I'm sure they will find someone to blame other than Josh.  

Edited April 30, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[HighHopes]

I wonder if Anna's brother won't try to petition for temporary emergency custody of the m&ms. I don't know anything about American law, but I can't imagine her brother will just sit by and do nothing. Especially with the history of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar not doing anything with Josh's previous behaviour. 

[Slakkie]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

And their other grandchildren. 

THEY are the ones at this point that I fear the most.  They knew their son was a pedophile but they tried to diminish it.  They allowed HIM in their house yet Jill is the outcast.  As far as I am concerned Jim and Michelle are accomplices to all of this.  

The way they treat their girls - it makes me ill.

[Minivanessa]

48 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Does two counts mean they found 2 images on his computer?

 

44 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Not a lawyer, but it probably means 2 instances of Josh downloading images, not the amount of images.  

I read the Indictment here online. As @madpsych78 just said, there's a count charging receipt of images of child sexual abuse, and a count charging possession of images of child sexual abuse.

Those are two different crimes, and I'm sure the indictment just covers the bases by charging under all the statutes that the evidence will support. It could be ten images or ten thousand that he received/possessed, the indictment didn't say. And doesn't have to say; that will be disclosed as the case progresses.

It's typical in criminal cases that the prosecution charges all the violations that the evidence supports. A single act or episode could result in multiple charges being filed, depending on how many laws were broken. 

@CountryGirl, I agree with you about the terminology. Children were SEXUALLY ABUSED to create the images that SexPest was viewing. This is not a victimless crime. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, HighHopes said:

I wonder if Anna's brother won't try to petition for temporary emergency custody of the m&ms. I don't know anything about American law, but I can't imagine her brother will just sit by and do nothing. Especially with the history of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar not doing anything with Josh's previous behaviour. 

Josh is in jail until his bail hearing.  He very well could be in jail until his trial.  It all depends on the amount of his bail and how deep the Duggars's pockets are.  They may have to choose between bailing Josh out and paying for his legal representation.  It happens to many across the country every day.  The kids can be safe for awhile.

[Churchhoney]

20 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Maybe it’s not fair that the rest of the Duggars are “punished” for Josh’s (alleged) crimes by having their TV show and influencer gigs cancelled, but that’s how it goes, especially when the entire narrative is that they are a wholesome Christian family whose claim to fame is having lots of kids. If the charges were white collar, it wouldn’t be as big of a deal. But the nature of the charges and the whole Duggar image are diametrically opposed. 

Plus, JB and M -- who in my opinion were a strong contributing cause to this by the way they treated Josh and treated their daughters and the other girl when this happened...and by the crap they preach about sex issues and gender roles in general -- have been all over the current show for a long time.

And in their minds, I'm sure both shows have  always been about them being role models. Any show that goes within a million miles of being role models should definitely be off the air after this. 

[iwantcookies]

Until May 5th there will be nothing new aka bail hearing. Too early to think what will happen to Anna and her M & M’s. 
 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by iwantcookies

[Tikichick]

Just now, HighHopes said:

I wonder if Anna's brother won't try to petition for temporary emergency custody of the m&ms. I don't know anything about American law, but I can't imagine her brother will just sit by and do nothing. Especially with the history of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar not doing anything with Josh's previous behaviour. 

The bar for that type of action is high, as it should be.  The right of parents to parent their children is one of the most fundamental rights we have as humans.  I can't think of anything I would fight harder to protect.

I am absolutely not advocating that a parent's rights are absolute without exception.   I participate in and advocate for the removal of children from their parents' custody on a regular basis, including the termination of parental rights in many cases.   At this point there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that Anna knowingly ignored risk to her children.

[Pingaponga]

I have a couple of questions.

If the dealership was raided in 2019, and this was the reason why, why has it taken over a year to lay charges? Would it really take that long to find evidence of porn and decide to lay charges?

And is there any chance this is only the beginning of charges against the Duggars? This doesn't seem to be the type of thing that would see the need for JB moving properties/businesses/whatever into various kids' names. That seem to me to be something you'd do to try to prevent assets being seized or something.

[3 is enough]

Back in 2015 Jim Bob and Michelle tried to spin it as a teenage boy being "curious" and that "it happens in a lot of families".

 I remember that while no one excused his behaviour, a lot of people wondered if not being able to date or have a normal teenage experience was in part to blame. 

But these new revelations pretty much show that he knew what he was doing back then.  He is a pedophile.  And I hope his parents burn in hell for putting the blame on his victims and not taking appropriate action.

[Natalie68]

2 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

Yeah, I don’t see the show remaining on the air after this, no matter the actual outcome of the trial. 

This is going to be one expensive case to fight.  Could bring down the whole kit and caboodle.  I think maybe Jinger and Jill could do something later on their own but the rest of the family is effed.  

[iwantcookies]

Josh made it to daily mail 

[all fall down]

We don't know what triggered the original raid in 2019, do we?

There was obviously suspicion of some crime being committed, whether it was the CP or something else (financial/taxes, etc). 

While the current charges are terrible enough, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if additional charges were brought. 

[JustRosie]

Just now, christine falls said:

We don't know what triggered the original raid in 2019, do we?

There was obviously suspicion of some crime being committed, whether it was the CP or something else (financial/taxes, etc). 

While the current charges are terrible enough, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if additional charges were brought. 

Agreed. I think this is just the beginning. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Pingaponga said:

I have a couple of questions.

If the dealership was raided in 2019, and this was the reason why, why has it taken over a year to lay charges? Would it really take that long to find evidence of porn and decide to lay charges?

And is there any chance this is only the beginning of charges against the Duggars? This doesn't seem to be the type of thing that would see the need for JB moving properties/businesses/whatever into various kids' names. That seem to me to be something you'd do to try to prevent assets being seized or something.

These kinds of charges frequently are very long-range.   I would not be surprised if they had enough to charge Josh before the raid via a sting operation he walked into or if he was caught as the result of another perp being caught.   They may have been investigating the computers they seized for possible additional charges against Josh, as well as attempting to chase additional rabbits down holes -- ultimately hoping to find as many perpetrators who are directly abusing the children to produce the material and stopping that ongoing abuse.

As far as the number of charges and how it correlates to the number of images I'm not familiar with the federal process.   At the state level here it's not necessarily each image resulting in a separate charge, it functions the same way many other crimes are prosecuted, with some offenses being "bundled" in a single charge because they are considered as components of the same criminal transaction.  

[Crochetlady]

21 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

I hey don't deserve what Josh is putting them through.

 

 

 

 

The only ones who deserve it are Mooch and Boob. They knew what he was, and did nothing. 

[cereality]

3 minutes ago, Pingaponga said:

I have a couple of questions.

If the dealership was raided in 2019, and this was the reason why, why has it taken over a year to lay charges? Would it really take that long to find evidence of porn and decide to lay charges?

And is there any chance this is only the beginning of charges against the Duggars? This doesn't seem to be the type of thing that would see the need for JB moving properties/businesses/whatever into various kids' names. That seem to me to be something you'd do to try to prevent assets being seized or something.

So yes it can take over a year to bring charges sometimes. Sometimes it's that they saw some internet history or whatever in that raid but he didn't have stored pics of kids, so they couldn't charge with possession or the transmission of images wasn't there on his computers. But whatever they saw there may have made them suspicious. Then they'd have to go to court to get judges to authorize electronic surveillances (kind of like wire taps but for computers) to monitor what was coming off of the servers/ISP providers off the Duggar compound; sometimes those orders are granted for a time period -- like you can't/don't just surveil for one day or one week and say -- aha see child porn. Frankly with as large a family living on one compound all using the same ISPs, as well as multiple brothers working at the same business using the same computers, you have to be very careful to charge the right person with the right thing. You don't just go charging just because there's some child porn being transmitted someplace in the Duggar vicinity -- you have to know WHO is doing it. That sort of thing, the required subpoenas etc. do take time.

I actually don't think this is the beginning of charges against the Duggars overall. I think it's a specific child porn issue with some specific pedo -- and child porn very much falls within the mission of DOJ right now as it has ties to child trafficking etc. -- so they crack down on that. 

-Fed ct lawyer though I don't practice in this area specifically.

I will say though when I saw that he'd been arrested yesterday, in my heart of hearts I knew it was porn, molestation, something sexual -- NOT just merely financial. Something isn't right with him between his sisters, Ashley Madison, and seeking out prostitutes and that type of thing just doesn't go away because your wife has more sex with you, you make more babies, or attend a few weeks of christian counseling. These are life long type of problems.

[Future Cat Lady]

2 minutes ago, christine falls said:

We don't know what triggered the original raid in 2019, do we?

There was obviously suspicion of some crime being committed, whether it was the CP or something else (financial/taxes, etc). 

While the current charges are terrible enough, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if additional charges were brought. 

Maybe they were investigating someone else and Josh had contact with that person. They were probably other people arrested during this investigation. I think that’s how they usually catch those guys.

[IndianPaintbrush]

I'm pretty sure the Department of Justice/Project Safe Childhood has ways of tracking the IP addresses of people who receive known images of minor children. 

[Slakkie]

3 minutes ago, Crochetlady said:

The only ones who deserve it are Mooch and Boob. They knew what he was, and did nothing. 

I wish they were going to jail with him.  As a parent they disgust me.  They did not protect their children.  

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, christine falls said:

We don't know what triggered the original raid in 2019, do we?

There was obviously suspicion of some crime being committed, whether it was the CP or something else (financial/taxes, etc). 

While the current charges are terrible enough, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if additional charges were brought. 

I'm wondering that as well. This has to be the tip of the iceberg. 

But, wow. Josh has screwed his siblings once again. Good-bye show. Good-bye influencer gigs, good-bye Jinger's book. There's no way to spin this. Even if the rest of the family is innocent, there's no way to escape the stain of child porn. 

And yeah, Michelle, your Golden Boy was a little more than "curious." He's a sick pervert and I hope he goes to jail for the rest of his life.

[cereality]

So being off at court myself this morning (for work not personally), I am just now catching up to the Duggar charges. Has anyone seen a criminal complaint/criminal information -- the charging document that lays out the exact charges? It could be under seal (as in not publicaly visible) since this involves a child related issue. Usually way more informative to read the court document than news media.

[MargeGunderson]

11 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Back in 2015 Jim Bob and Michelle tried to spin it as a teenage boy being "curious" and that "it happens in a lot of families".

 I remember that while no one excused his behaviour, a lot of people wondered if not being able to date or have a normal teenage experience was in part to blame. 

But these new revelations pretty much show that he knew what he was doing back then.  He is a pedophile.  And I hope his parents burn in hell for putting the blame on his victims and not taking appropriate action.

I was one of the people who thought his warped upbringing was part of the problem, and wasn’t ready to label him a pedophile but rather an opportunist. I was wrong. 

[MaryAnneSpier]

The friend of the family cop who gave Josh a "talkin' to" when the molestations were reproted was later found guilty of some form of child abuse. I wonder if his case brought Josh on the Fed's radar. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, cereality said:

So being off at court myself this morning (for work not personally), I am just now catching up to the Duggar charges. Has anyone seen a criminal complaint/criminal information -- the charging document that lays out the exact charges? It could be under seal (as in not publicaly visible) since this involves a child related issue. Usually way more informative to read the court document than news media.

Its in this thread somewhere, although @Zella might still have the link.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, cereality said:

So being off at court myself this morning (for work not personally), I am just now catching up to the Duggar charges. Has anyone seen a criminal complaint/criminal information -- the charging document that lays out the exact charges? It could be under seal (as in not publicaly visible) since this involves a child related issue. Usually way more informative to read the court document than news media.

https://www.nwahomepage.com/northwest-arkansas-news/joshua-duggar-formally-charged-remains-jailed-until-may-5/

[all fall down]

2 minutes ago, cereality said:

So being off at court myself this morning (for work not personally), I am just now catching up to the Duggar charges. Has anyone seen a criminal complaint/criminal information -- the charging document that lays out the exact charges? It could be under seal (as in not publicaly visible) since this involves a child related issue. Usually way more informative to read the court document than news media.

The indictment is here 

 

[Minivanessa]

3 minutes ago, cereality said:

So being off at court myself this morning (for work not personally), I am just now catching up to the Duggar charges. Has anyone seen a criminal complaint/criminal information -- the charging document that lays out the exact charges? It could be under seal (as in not publicaly visible) since this involves a child related issue. Usually way more informative to read the court document than news media.

Here you go: It's online here. Short and (not so) sweet. Two counts.

[Natalie68]

56 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Any adult with more than three functioning gray cells who would actually say something so repugnant deserves to experience what the kids in those images have been subjected to.  Kids are trafficked, drugged, abused and even murdered every day around the world to produce those images.

As far as those baying for Anna's children to be removed from her, remember at the end of the day it's not about vengeance and punishment, it's about the best interest of the kids.  They've lost their dad.   Sure, he's a total load, but I doubt that was their perspective.   Being ripped from their mom on the assumption she was complicit or at the very least she should have known doesn't necessarily result in a great outcome for the kids.   As much as I despise the general lifestyle of that cult, I don't know that traumatizing the kids achieves anything but traumatized kids, which is not a win for anyone.  

I would agree if Anna didn't know who she married.  She knew his history, she knew about the raid and she knew he was getting arrested if reports are true the family was expecting it.  She stayed.  She doersn't have the good sense needed to keep kids safe.

[BradandJanet]

While I don't think this scandal should affect the Duggar children's business opportunities, I firmly believe the TV show needs to be taken off the air. In her book, Jinger said that Michelle told the children the show was a ministry. 

That ship has sunk.  

[Zella]

For Josh, I do think growing up in an environment where sex was both flaunted and terribly stigmatized created some issues--and probably does for all of them in just that would be a weird mindfuck to deal with. 

But the reason I was reluctant to just assume his molestations were crimes of opportunity was the fact his attacks on his sisters got increasingly brazen and severe and also the ages of the victims got younger and younger. That's always seemed very damning to me. And I think deep down the Duggars know that because they always lied in public statements to avoid addressing the latter instances. 

[Kbo]

I can’t stop thinking about his expression in that mug shot. Not only is there no remorse, there’s no shame, either. How does a person grow up in that environment and have no shame upon being arrested for possessing sexually explicit images of children?   You know what I pray, JB and Michelle?  I pray they lock him up under the jail and throw away the key. 

[iwantcookies]

The ball is Anna’s court. What she does next will show her character. If she stays... 

 

 

[Tikichick]

Even local law enforcement is running online stings for child pornography and child trafficking on a regular basis.   A lot of this work is done via combined efforts of individual municipal departments in conjunction with several other departments in their area, along with federal agents in their area many times as well.   These units will set up fake personas looking to see what kind of predators show up, and they will troll known sites looking to see if they can identify any participants for the appropriate authorities to apprehend.   I do know from time to time I have seen listings mentioning things such as Interpol in the documents, but that's way beyond the type of things handled here so I'm really not familiar with that.  

[iwantcookies]

1 minute ago, Kbo said:

I can’t stop thinking about his expression in that mug shot. Not only is there no remorse, there’s no shame, either. How does a person grow up in that environment and have no shame upon being arrested for possessing sexually explicit images of children?   You know what I pray, JB and Michelle?  I pray they lock him up under the jail and throw away the key. 

He has no soul. 

[Annb67]

If you can get to Cousin Amy’s account...she KNEW something was getting ready to hit. Maybe Jill tipped her off. I would link but yeah, I’m old.