Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Annb67]

I hope that the spouses of the Duggar siblings have removed them and maybe, taken them out of the are and secluded. No social media, no phone; the spouses have their own in case of emergency. They need to decompress and hopefully figure out how to take a break from this craziness.

[Jeeves]

Just now, Annb67 said:

I hope that the spouses of the Duggar siblings have removed them and maybe, taken them out of the are and secluded. No social media, no phone; the spouses have their own in case of emergency. They need to decompress and hopefully figure out how to take a break from this craziness.

I agree, but I don't think the Duggars and their spouses would (except Derick).

All they need is Jesus, and more prayers. At least, most of them seem to have shut off SM comments and figured out this wasn't a day to be posting stuff (well, except Kendra).

But I'm sure they are all being reminded by their headship JB, that they need to double down in prayer, and probably to pray for forgiveness for Anna because in Gothardland, it's always the wife's fault if the husband does something wrong. She must not have been satisfying his needs. Hey, don't get mad at me; I don't believe that sh*t, just mentioning that they do. 

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

Has anybody heard of her?

https://www.facebook.com/ThrivingForwardBlog/videos/520098525657249/

Wow, that was powerful and informative. She seems to know what she's talking about.

[satrunrose]

13 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think it's even worse in JB & M's case.   They do not value women, or girls except as baby making machines.    They value their sons, and don't care about what happened to girls and women.   

I totally agree with you on principal. Gothard in particular and fundies in general don't value girls and women, but in JB and M's case, I don't feel like they value the boys much either. I think they value those kids that can further their agenda so Jessa, Jill back when she was the snitch, Jed! Josie and (for reasons unknown because his tendencies were becoming obvious as they were grooming him for political greatness) Josh are valued and the other 14 are just part of the pack. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by satrunrose

[GreyBunny]

Are we allowed to call him a pedophile now? Asking for lots of friends.

[Spazamanaz]

I knew it. I knew something like this would hit the fan sooner or later. Josh has always given me bad vibes. There was just always something about him that didn't sit right with me. I'm not surprised at all. He was just a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. He's a sexual predator, always has been, always will be. When it came out that he molested his sisters, I always wondered if he molested or tried to molest other girls from other families, such as the Bates. And when it came out, I wondered if the parents of these other families were worried and wondering the same thing. 

With these recent charges I wonder if the other families-in-laws, such as the Caldwells, Swansons, Vuolos, etc. are offering support to the Duggars through this. I wonder what they are thinking...

[GreyBunny]

6 hours ago, SMama said:

I do, and also blame them for their failure to protect their daughters. They continued to enable him, making the girls live with their abuser, waiting on him like a king.

They also gave Josh free range of the TTH and its gaggle of children (even after the raid), while Jill has to ask permission to visit her childhood home. The three of them should burn in hell. 

This. He grew up in an environment where women and girls’ bodies are nothing but pleasure objects for men and baby-producing machines. Females have no say and aren’t allowed to have their own boundaries. Of course boys and men think they are entitled to unfettered access to the bodies of women, girls, and children. Josh is a product of his environment, a very sick, twisted, and disgusting environment set up by JB and M. Burning in hell is too good for all three of them. Anna too, she’s just as sleazy and depraved. She knew what he was and kept squeezing out more potential victims to put in his line of fire. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by GreyBunny

[Angeleyes]

I wish to center my comments less on the perpetrators and more on the victims. I hope that whoever they are, wherever they are that they can get the help they need to support them as they heal from the crimes committed against them. I hope that everyone involved in the crimes  is convicted. I believe that cults like the one the Duggar’s are involved in typically have abusers in various forms as members. I hope that a conviction in this high profile case would lead to more victims feeling strong enough to come forward for other crimes inside the cult as well as those who are not involved with Gothard.  I also hope that TLC stops financially supporting and profiting from anyone in this family or this cult. It’s long past time they are allowed to continue to look the other way. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

JB and M are totally awful, ridiculous people but I'm hesitant blaming this on them. I think Josh is just a bad seed. 

I think that's certainly possible.

But I don't think it's ever fair or right to make that judgment about somebody who had a lot of serious issues and acted in bad ways as a teenager when that teenager was in messed-up situations of any kind and/or never got any serious attempts at real help or at least real diagnosis for him or her.

Josh had parents who made no effort to get him any of that. In fact, they did the opposite. They swept everything under rugs and did everything backwards from even the way us ordinary untutored people would do these things. They didn't really care about him -- even as they pampered him as the Golden Child. All they cared about was how their rug looked. And we know that to be true, because they didn't just sweep the "bad seed" under the rug. They offered no help for their daughters, either -- the victims. In fact, they sort of blamed them. 

So while, yeah, it's perfectly possible that Josh would have been a mess no matter was done, I'd argue that there's absolutely no way we can know that and declare him an unredeemable bad seed and let his parents off the hook. And U don't think it's fair to permanently brand somebody now as having been hopeless and evil his whole life because we don't know what could have happened if he'd been in a better situation as a child and a teenager. His parents made absolutely zero effort to see if anything could be done -- to help him get control of himself, to protect him from himself, to protect the girls from him. Or anything.

They did nothing, except for some of the worst and dumbest things you could possibly think of.

So there's no way to know whether Josh could have been bettered or not. He was a kid. He deserved a lot more and more thoughtful effort than that from his parents. As did his sisters.

But of course his parents were too busy pumping out a billion more kids to neglect and bombard with harmful fantasies about some crazy god Bill Gothard made up. And preening themselves as role models. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[3girlsforus]

2 minutes ago, quarks said:

I'm pretty sure that Arkansas has the legal right to remove children from homes deemed unsafe, but do they have the legal right to require someone to divorce a spouse deemed unsafe?

(Genuinely asking. I'm not an attorney and I know zilch about Arkansas law.)

I don't know for sure but I don't think they can force her to get a divorce but they can say that when he is out of jail he can't live in a home with children. So he'd have to get 18+ years to not have children at home when he's released. So either she would have to divorce him, he would have to live somewhere else when released, or she would have to give up her kids. 

[JoanArc]

11 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

Are we allowed to call him a pedophile now? Asking for lots of friends.

Quote

 

No!

[Zella]

I've never personally heard of any state demanding someone get a divorce. I mean, you're not supposed to compel a spouse to testify against the other, so I'd think you can't demand they get a divorce either. (Would be a way to solve the whole "can't compel to testify" thing.)

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[quarks]

I think that it's more likely that Anna and Josh will end up living in two separate houses, while remaining married, than divorcing.

This is not a group that believes in divorce, at all. 

[doodlebug]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I've never personally heard of any state demanding someone get a divorce. 

Yes, I don't think that would happen.  I do know of someone who put her child into foster care rather than stop living with her boyfriend after he was charged with sexually abusing another child.  Like Josh, his bail included the requirement that he not be in the presence of minor children.  Eventually, he went to prison for some years.  I don't know if she ever got her kid back, just that she chose her child molesting boyfriend over her own flesh and blood.

There are no words...

[CouchTater]

Do you all remember the video posted of someone's birthday celebration a month or so ago when all the kids were sitting on the kitchen counters?  I think this is also when we saw Anna's pregnant belly.  

The part that really stood out to me was when Josh put (I think) Giddy onto the edge of the counter to be with the other kids, and then backed away quickly.  At the time it seemed really irresponsible to leave a toddler so close to the edge, by himself.  But now I'm wondering why Josh moved back so quickly.  I wonder if he isn't allowed to handle/hold non-M's (or at least not allowed to hold Austin and Joy's kids) and he didn't want to be seen holding him.  Just pure speculation on my part, of course, but he definitely backed away immediately.  It was weird.

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, Twopper said:

Maybe that is true of Bill Gothard, but JB seemed to prefer the boys to find jobs where they worked for themselves.  In the early seasons Josh wanted to go to law school, but the snark at the time was about his lack of education at his mother's dining room table school.  I have often wondered if Josh had a lot of anger about not getting support and the proper schooling to get a regular job instead of being stuck selling cars or flipping houses like some of his siblings.  At least JD got a pilot's license. Josh had the FRC job handed to him, and he still messed up.

Bill Gothard wanted that but he also wanted his people, and especially the young people that he felt he'd fully shaped, to be a significant part of the governments and other ruling bodies of this and other countries. He made many efforts to do that.

He collected as many politicians and other similar people in his group as he could. He and quite a few of his acolytes worked in various cities, state, and countries to get the Gothard in place and the basis for various institutions, including juvenile penal facilities and such. And he had success with that.

He frequently promised Gothard-raised teens that if they constantly dressed in the fashion he preached and behaved according to his dictates, people in power would be naturally drawn to them and choose them to work for them and hold office, just when they met them on the streets. That vision earthly power is something he used to incentivize the teenagers in the group to follow his rules. 

And for some time he actually had a fair amount of success with all of those things, in some cities, states, the federal government, and in some other countries. His success lagged and slowly fell apart, though, as a lot of the Gothard acolytes in government ran afoul of other government officials and voters because most of them were pretty nutty and they were extreme patriarchy supporters, got called "the Taliban," in some cases. 

And then on top of that accusations of abuse of various kinds started coming out of the Gothard-principle government institutions that got created. And people became leery of that. And then, first, his two brothers got into trouble, one for defrauding a lot of church people of their money and the other for sexual crimes with various women. And then Gothard eventually got called out on sexual stuff with young girls and young women. ... 

So I'm sure he was very much in favor of Josh's moment in the sun at FRC. He fervently wished for his ideas to lead this and other countries. Luckily, a lot of people have felt that the most of his ideas are the ideas of a dangerous nut. 

[Jeanne222]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

JB and M are totally awful, ridiculous people but I'm hesitant blaming this on them. I think Josh is just a bad seed. 

They are terrible enablers of Josh.

I remember when the feds were at their homestead and they both put out a statement that that was not true!  Nothing going on here!!!  Right.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Jeanne222 said:

They are terrible enablers of Josh.

I remember when the feds were at their homestead and they both put out a statement that that was not true!  Nothing going on here!!!  Right.

[lascuba]

I've been thinking about this all day and I just feel sick over it. I had always hoped and convinced myself that what Josh did as a teen was a result of a smarmy asshole taking advantage of an opportunity, and that as an adult, while still a smarmy asshole, he wasn't a danger to children. And even assuming that "all" he's done is download cp, the children in those images were abused horribly. I hate this.

I've never made a secret of my dislike and disdain of all the Duggars. I've always thought--and still think--that their beliefs make them bad people who want to make the world a worse place for most people. But right now I'm thinking about his sisters and how they must be feeling right now.

[mynextmistake]

24 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I agree, but I don't think the Duggars and their spouses would (except Derick).

All they need is Jesus, and more prayers. At least, most of them seem to have shut off SM comments and figured out this wasn't a day to be posting stuff (well, except Kendra).

But I'm sure they are all being reminded by their headship JB, that they need to double down in prayer, and probably to pray for forgiveness for Anna because in Gothardland, it's always the wife's fault if the husband does something wrong. She must not have been satisfying his needs. Hey, don't get mad at me; I don't believe that sh*t, just mentioning that they do. 

I’m sure the kids still under JB’s roof will toe the party line. However, I’m not sure that the married kids will be as willing to do so. Keep in mind that most of them have little girls of their own now, and if they have any parental instincts at all they are likely having a visceral reaction of disgust and horror at the fact that their brother enjoys watching kids get abused. 

We already know how Derick feels. I strongly suspect that Jeremy/Jinger are completely done with Josh after this. I think that Joe was already sticking a few toes out the Duggar door and is now likely to follow those toes with his feet and, hopefully, the rest of his body and those of his wife and children. JD had a hard time coping when Josh was looking at *adult* pornography, and I doubt he will be any more forgiving of him now. If Jed! has any hopes of a real political career he can’t afford to publicly support Josh. So I don’t think their wagons will be in the circle.

I can’t get a read on Austin, Josiah, or the other one who just got married (Jason? Jacob?) so I don’t know what to expect from them. Really, the only married couple I expect to be vocally supportive are Jessa and Ben, and I think that will be driven by Jessa, not by Ben. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, mynextmistake said:

I can’t get a read on Austin, 

I'm not an Austin fan, but I do think he genuinely loves his children. I have a hard time seeing him being chill with Josh and the child porn charges. 

14 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, I don't think that would happen.  I do know of someone who put her child into foster care rather than stop living with her boyfriend after he was charged with sexually abusing another child.  Like Josh, his bail included the requirement that he not be in the presence of minor children.  Eventually, he went to prison for some years.  I don't know if she ever got her kid back, just that she chose her child molesting boyfriend over her own flesh and blood.

There are no words...

Yeah I think in a situation where someone choses a partner or spouse over their children when the significant other is a sex offender, the only real recourse is to remove the children.

And even if a forcible divorce was an option, I would not trust the judgment of someone who had to be forced to get a divorce in that situation. 

[BitterApple]

I think the brainwashing runs pretty deep. Derick and Jeremy are the only ones I see having a "normal people" reaction. Joe and JD only stopped wanting to be like Josh after the cheating scandal. They were fine looking up to him after he'd molested four of their sisters. Overall, I don't have much confidence in Duggars, especially the males. Does that mean I think they're okay with it? No, but I'm also not convinced they view this as worse than cheating or looking at adult porn. Gothard set up a system that pretty much normalized sex abuse. 

[LexieLily]

9 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

I’m sure the kids still under JB’s roof will toe the party line. However, I’m not sure that the married kids will be as willing to do so. Keep in mind that most of them have little girls of their own now, and if they have any parental instincts at all they are likely having a visceral reaction of disgust and horror at the fact that their brother enjoys watching kids get abused. 

We already know how Derick feels. I strongly suspect that Jeremy/Jinger are completely done with Josh after this. I think that Joe was already sticking a few toes out the Duggar door and is now likely to follow those toes with his feet and, hopefully, the rest of his body and those of his wife and children. JD had a hard time coping when Josh was looking at *adult* pornography, and I doubt he will be any more forgiving of him now. If Jed! has any hopes of a real political career he can’t afford to publicly support Josh. So I don’t think their wagons will be in the circle.

I can’t get a read on Austin, Josiah, or the other one who just got married (Jason? Jacob?) so I don’t know what to expect from them. Really, the only married couple I expect to be vocally supportive are Jessa and Ben, and I think that will be driven by Jessa, not by Ben. 

If it makes any difference at all, Jeremy and Jinger are the only ones that have multiple girls (and no boys). JD (Abbie) and Josiah (Lauren) each have one girl. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lady Whistleup]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

They are terrible enablers of Josh.

I remember when the feds were at their homestead and they both put out a statement that that was not true!  Nothing going on here!!!  Right.

They are terrible enablers. They're awful people, awful parents. But when someone is a pedophile and the charges include child porn, that's when I hesitate to blame the parents. Because pedophiles have an extremely low rate of recovery. Some of them have the self control take themselves out of the equation by never being around kids, but this stuff is ingrained.

I think that JB and M realized that Josh was a troubled child and they didn't get him help. They didn't support his sisters who were victims of his abuse. But I have a feeling that Josh would have wound up in jail no matter what because of the way pedophilia works.

I really am praying for Jessa, Jill, Joy, and Jinger tonight. Seeing all those headlines has to be awful, triggering, and traumatizing. I hope they have a support system to deal with the media circus because they're not going to get it from JB and M, that's for sure.

[all fall down]

4 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

I’m sure the kids still under JB’s roof will toe the party line. However, I’m not sure that the married kids will be as willing to do so. Keep in mind that most of them have little girls of their own now, and if they have any parental instincts at all they are likely having a visceral reaction of disgust and horror at the fact that their brother enjoys watching kids get abused. 

 

It will be much harder to control the married adults this time. 

I couldn't remember, so I looked it up, back in spring 2015:

Only 7 of their kids were over 18, and only 3 were married - Josh, Jill, and Jessa. The rest of the over 18's lived at home (except maybe not John?)

There were only 4 grandkids - 3 of whom were Josh's. Meredith was born that July.

Now they have 14 kids over 18, 10 of which are married, and 20 grandkids.

Of course JB still has a lot of control over most of them, but that hold may not necessarily be as strong as it was in 2015. I think it's possible we may see more of them distance themselves. 

 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

They are terrible enablers. They're awful people, awful parents. But when someone is a pedophile and the charges include child porn, that's when I hesitate to blame the parents. Because pedophiles have an extremely low rate of recovery. Some of them have the self control take themselves out of the equation by never being around kids, but this stuff is ingrained.

I think that JB and M realized that Josh was a troubled child and they didn't get him help. They didn't support his sisters who were victims of his abuse. But I have a feeling that Josh would have wound up in jail no matter what because of the way pedophilia works.

I really am praying for Jessa, Jill, Joy, and Jinger tonight. Seeing all those headlines has to be awful, triggering, and traumatizing. I hope they have a support system to deal with the media circus because they're not going to get it from JB and M, that's for sure.

Yeah I am not a fan of Jim Bob and Michelle at all, and I think they have handled all of the multiple sex scandals in their family horribly and that they fucked up their kids immeasurably, but I am also inclined to think that Josh would have ended up facing the same charges even if he had been raised in a different environment. 

 

[babyhouseman]

Jim Bob and Michelle profited off being holier than thou parents way after they knew about their son. And I don't know how many shows Anna has been on post the first Josh scandal, but he benefited from whatever she got paid to be on the show. TLC quickly put out a statement to say they cut off ties with Josh after his first scandal. But they still featured his wife and kids.

[mythoughtis]

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

They are terrible enablers. They're awful people, awful parents. But when someone is a pedophile and the charges include child porn, that's when I hesitate to blame the parents. Because pedophiles have an extremely low rate of recovery. Some of them have the self control take themselves out of the equation by never being around kids, but this stuff is ingrained.

I think that JB and M realized that Josh was a troubled child and they didn't get him help. They didn't support his sisters who were victims of his abuse. But I have a feeling that Josh would have wound up in jail no matter what because of the way pedophilia works.

Nature vs nurture 

I think some criminals are born and some are made. Regardless of the crime in particular.   I don’t think Josh was born a criminal... I think he became one due to how he was raised. Although his brain  might be wired not quite right,  it was JB and Michelle’s weirdness that took that oddly wired brain  and fried it.

Once they did that -yes, Josh was going to end up in jail.  But if they hadn’t raised him like they did or if he had been adopted by a different family at birth..: maybe not.  

[Oldernowiser]

I don’t believe Anna will divorce Josh and I don’t believe he won’t be living in their house, either, once he’s out of jail. Those orders are only as good as their enforcement, and it’s not like anyone in the family is going to call the cops when Josh is back in the family fold and around kids all day long.

I have a neighbor whose adult sons got in an enormous fist fight and it ended with one of them shooting toward his brother’s girlfriend whose brilliant idea to break up the fight was to try to smash out the windows of the other brother’s car. Excellent thinking, all around. So younger brother, who was actually the good kid, ends up in jail with a felony firearms charge and a domestic violence protection order against him. He wasn’t supposed to go anywhere near the girlfriend or his brother.

So…six months later older brother and his girlfriend, who by now have a toddler and a baby, somehow run afoul of the law for child neglect by being messed up on some drug or another. Grandma gets temporary custody of the kiddies….and now they’re all living together. Note the drug addict parents of these children are not supposed to see them without a non-relative third party supervisor present. Note the younger brother still has a PO against him. 

Point is, unless the authorities in Arkansas are going to check and check regularly, Josh is back in that house with Anna and the kids and it’ll all be shoved back under the rug before he’s out of jail for a month. 

I hope I’m wrong.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah I am not a fan of Jim Bob and Michelle at all, and I think they have handled all of the multiple sex scandals in their family horribly and that they fucked up their kids immeasurably, but I am also inclined to think that Josh would have ended up facing the same charges even if he had been raised in a different environment. 

 

Different parents would have made different choices for their troubled teen. The choices that Boobchelle made were a compilation of what NOT to do. 

[Zella]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Different parents would have made different choices for their troubled teen. The choices that Boobchelle made were a compilation of what NOT to do. 

Oh I don't disagree with that at all. My point is I am not convinced them doing everything right means Josh isn't still sitting exactly where he is now. 

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, Zella said:

Oh I don't disagree with that at all. My point is I am not convinced them doing everything right means Josh isn't still sitting exactly where he is now. 

As was noted above, it's an issue of nature vs. nurture. Smuggar may have been born that way, but Boobchelle exacerbated the situation by not getting him into intense therapy from the first sign something was wrong. Sending him off to build houses or whatever it was for Gothard certainly didn't work. And Jesus Jail did next to nothing other than help Smuggar recite bible verses.

Edited May 1, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[rue721]

When Josh got caught as a teenager, wasn’t he shipped off to a sheriff who then also got arrested for child sexual assault images?!

Abuse and depravity is very normalized in this group and who knows where/when/how Josh or ANY of these sick fucks became pedophiles and/or sexual predators. But it seems like within this “social circle,” the predatory behavior is self-reinforcing. Josh is just part of the predatory churn. 🤮

Just like when we heard about what Josh did as a teenager, I think right now we’re also seeing just the tip of the iceberg.

So horrific to think of a pedophile running amok in a family known for massive amounts of under-supervised and neglected children. No, I’m not surprised by the charges but I’m still horrified by them. I had hoped that Josh wasn’t continuing to predate, even though it seemed far more likely that he was, and now even that small hope is dashed.

I wonder how the family will move on from this. What I would think they’d want to do would be to hide out for at least a while... but for most of the 2nd gen, their “influencer” fame is how they put food on the table, so... how can they slide into obscurity, practically speaking? 

As for Anna, this probably changes nothing for her. And their religion teaches them to choose their spouse over their children, so I think that’s what she’ll do.

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

JB and M are totally awful, ridiculous people but I'm hesitant blaming this on them. I think Josh is just a bad seed. 

I think that JB and J'chelle are people who completely lack empathy -- a trait that they've passed along to their children to different degrees.

Having no empathy makes parenthood a bad choice for them. The fact that they chose to have SO VERY MANY children when J'chelle herself admits that she "didn't have a heart for children" is unconscionable.

I think that Josh would have been an unremarkable, run-of-the-mill asshole if he had been one of 3-4 children and his parents hadn't joined a cult that aggressively denied sexuality in adolescents, completely isolated him from other people his age, and protected him from any meaningful consequences.

I think he may have the same need for control that JB has, but he's a grown man who has literally never had any control over his own life -- his parents chose a wife for him; they chose the work that he does and the place where he lives; they even have more control over the size of his family than he does. 

 

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

As was noted above, it's an issue of nature vs. nurture. Smuggar may have been born that way, but Boobchelle exacerbated the situation by not getting him into intense therapy from the first sign something was wrong. Sending him off to build houses or whatever it was for Gothard certainly didn't work. And Jesus Jail did next to nothing other than help Smuggar recite bible verses.

I'm not disputing that point. They completely shit the bed on their response. I don't think anyone argues that point. I'm just saying that I don't think sending him to proper therapy necessarily stops him for ending where he is now. It's what should have happened, but pedophilia isn't particularly responsive to treatment. 

What I'm objecting to is the linear argument that "doing everything right" automatically prevents pedophilia. It doesn't. Some people not reoffending doesn't mean Josh wouldn't reoffend either with treatment.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[Gweilo]

14 hours ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

There were already crimes. This thread title was my submission back when we were naming threads, so I vote we keep it. 😊 The understatement is the joke. 

Haa, I totally get wanting to protect your thread title (I feel the same about the thread title that I 'won') 😜

But disagree about the understatement being funny anymore, because my wish is that the whole world stops giving fucking Michelle and JB any semantic wiggle room when it comes to describing Josh's crimes. Even when we're making a joke. Like, I think that Josh's name should always be coupled with the words sex offender, pedophile, criminal. I think that his crimes should be named, and that it should be in black and white everywhere. So, I do get the joke behind the thread name, but now I'm so angry and sad on behalf of all the children that were abused, that I don't have any humour left in me, I guess?

[mythoughtis]

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm not disputing that point. They completely shit the bed on their response. I don't think anyone argues that point. I'm just saying that I don't think sending him to proper therapy necessarily doesn't stop him for ending where he is now. It's what should have happened, but pedophilia isn't particularly responsive to treatment. 

I think you may be right about that because the damage was already done by then.  As I noted in my nature vs nurture comment, those two fried his brain - and I believe they did it  prior to the episode with his sisters.The damage was probably  done between the ages of 3-14. Probably  too late to fix it once he exhibited the molesting behavior.  

Edited May 1, 2021 by mythoughtis

[cmr2014]

2 minutes ago, Gweilo said:

Haa, I totally get wanting to protect your thread title (I feel the same about the thread title that I 'won') 😜

But disagree about the understatement being funny anymore, because my wish is that the whole world stops giving fucking Michelle and JB any semantic wiggle room when it comes to describing Josh's crimes. Even when we're making a joke. Like, I think that Josh's name should always be coupled with the words sex offender, pedophile, criminal. I think that his crimes should be named, and that it should be in black and white everywhere. So, I do get the joke behind the thread name, but now I'm so angry and sad on behalf of all the children that were abused, that I don't have any humour left in me, I guess?

I'd add "sex-pest" to that as well. It's clever (and true), but diminishes his level of criminality and creepiness.

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm not disputing that point. They completely shit the bed on their response. I don't think anyone argues that point. I'm just saying that I don't think sending him to proper therapy necessarily stops him for ending where he is now. It's what should have happened, but pedophilia isn't particularly responsive to treatment. 

What I'm objecting to is the linear argument that "doing everything right" automatically prevents pedophilia. It doesn't. Some people not reoffending doesn't mean Josh wouldn't reoffend either with treatment.

LOL, I think we agree but are coming at this from different angles. There's plenty of fault to go around here. But as adults, I place the onus of blame on Boobchelle. They should have moved heaven and earth to get Smuggar the help he obviously needed. They failed their golden child almost as much as they failed the victims. 

[Gemma Violet]

4 hours ago, mittsigirl said:

Okay, this happened to me about 6 years ago, I am a senior woman who lives in the middle of nowhere Saskatchewan, Canada, and live a simple life, am pretty naïve about some things in life. One day I was trying to find a store in Canada that sold root beer flavoring.

Something weird happened to me about three years ago.  I came home from work one day, turned on my laptop, and there was no internet.  Thinking there was an outage in my area, I called my internet provider and was told they turned off my internet.  The guy said because someone in my home violated the DMCA, which they said was the Digital Millennial Copying Act.  He said a movie was illegally downloaded to my IP address.  Now, I'm in my sixties, don't even own a smart phone, only own my laptop, and I wouldn't know how to download a legal movie, much less an illegal movie.  He then said it must have been someone in my home who did it.  I said no, I live alone, have no children, and seldom have visitors.  Besides that, my laptop is in my back bedroom and is password protected.  I told them it was impossible.  He then checked with his supervisor and then told me they figured it out.  He said the IP addresses of their customers change every two weeks.  Apparently what happened is someone somewhere downloaded the illegal movie at the exact micro-second that my IP address changed and went to his computer (or his IP address came to my computer--I forgot how they said it).  Keep in mind that there was no movie downloaded on my computer.  So apparently, the movie downloaded to him, but was listed with my provider as being sent to my IP address.  Talk about being rattled.  All I could think of was what if it was something more serious than an illegal movie?  I asked them to document everything on my account so there will be a record of what happened.  Scary stuff.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Gemma Violet

[Zella]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

LOL, I think we agree but are coming at this from different angles. There's plenty of fault to go around here. But as adults, I place the onus of blame on Boobchelle. They should have moved heaven and earth to get Smuggar the help he obviously needed. They failed their golden child almost as much as they failed the victims. 

Yes I think so! To be honest, there is a lot that bothers me about how they handled the molestations, but what really pisses me off the most is more about the way the girls were treated (and the innocent brothers.) Instead of dealing with Josh as the problem and with all that entails and providing supportive therapy for the other poor kids (I know they got "therapy" but I am not convinced it was real therapy), they repeatedly diminished what happened and came up with a bunch of rules that basically just serves to teach them that it is inevitable you will be molested by an older brother. That really bothers me. 

[Jeeves]

25 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

I’m sure the kids still under JB’s roof will toe the party line. However, I’m not sure that the married kids will be as willing to do so. Keep in mind that most of them have little girls of their own now, and if they have any parental instincts at all they are likely having a visceral reaction of disgust and horror at the fact that their brother enjoys watching kids get abused. 

We already know how Derick feels. I strongly suspect that Jeremy/Jinger are completely done with Josh after this. I think that Joe was already sticking a few toes out the Duggar door and is now likely to follow those toes with his feet and, hopefully, the rest of his body and those of his wife and children. JD had a hard time coping when Josh was looking at *adult* pornography, and I doubt he will be any more forgiving of him now. If Jed! has any hopes of a real political career he can’t afford to publicly support Josh. So I don’t think their wagons will be in the circle.

I can’t get a read on Austin, Josiah, or the other one who just got married (Jason? Jacob?) so I don’t know what to expect from them. Really, the only married couple I expect to be vocally supportive are Jessa and Ben, and I think that will be driven by Jessa, not by Ben. 

You make some good points. The married Duggars who are fathers have - I hope - the visceral disgust that you mentioned, for Josh's having obtained and viewed those images of abused children. But those instincts will probably be at war with their strong IBLP/ATI cult indoctrination and pressure from their parents to go along with whatever line JB and Michelle take about this. Not to mention all the financial interdependence among them as part of Duggar Enterprises, except for Derick and Jeremy.

I don't think that JB was devoid of all normal fatherly instincts about his very young daughters, but apparently it was a no-brainer for him to take the Gothard party line when teenaged Josh admitted to sexually assaulting those daughters. Josh got sent off to hang with Bill Gothard, and the very young daughters had to stand up in church and forgive Josh. And the modesty rules were stepped up at home, lest the glimpse of a five year old's bare shoulder tempt Josh or any other male into irresistible lust and sin. That's some sick sh*t right there, and it happened. 

Maybe JB will get some pushback from his sons depending on what he wants them to say/do publicly about Josh. As you said, JD went on the show and declared his disappointment/disgust with Josh over adult porn and committing adultery with a consenting woman of legal age.  JD's stance might encourage others to push back if JB and Meech want them to express support for Josh, vs. just keeping quiet about him. 

These people - except for Jeremy and Derick - have all been steeped for decades now, in a toxic cult with some awful teachings. I don't know how they will respond to this situation, but I think the influence of all their years of indoctrination should not be underestimated.  

On a better note, I'm sure Jer and Der are long since DONE with Josh, as you said.

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, I don't think that would happen.  I do know of someone who put her child into foster care rather than stop living with her boyfriend after he was charged with sexually abusing another child.  Like Josh, his bail included the requirement that he not be in the presence of minor children.  Eventually, he went to prison for some years.  I don't know if she ever got her kid back, just that she chose her child molesting boyfriend over her own flesh and blood.

There are no words...

I was at a search warrant where the State trooper told the mother that her boyfriend was soliciting minors online and sending them naked pictures.  She told the woman that he could not stay in her home with her three young daughters there.  The woman said, "let me think" at which point the Trooper snapped up the kids and took them to social services.  It happens regularly and this doesn't shock me at all.  These men find needy women with low self esteem who can provide them access to the children they want.  They are master manipulators.

[cmr2014]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes I think so! To be honest, there is a lot that bothers me about how they handled the molestations, but what really pisses me off the most is more about the way the girls were treated (and the innocent brothers.) Instead of dealing with Josh as the problem and with all that entails and providing supportive therapy for the other poor kids (I know they got "therapy" but I am not convinced it was real therapy), they repeatedly diminished what happened and came up with a bunch of rules that basically just serves to teach them that it is inevitable you will be molested by an older brother. That really bothers me. 

I agree. I posted something about this on the Jill and Derick thread. During the interview that Jill and Jessa did (or soon afterward), Jill said something about thinking her parents did a great job of dealing with the abuse and put rules in place to prevent it from happening again., and she said that she would probably use those same rules herself. She didn't say which rules she meant specifically, but there were rules that prevented boys from changing diapers of girl babies, no touching or games that included touching, the infamous "side hugs," and locks on the girls' bedroom door (and I think on Josh's door, too).

I think that it's a real possibility that if Jill had a daughter, she would just assume that Izzy would molest her, and would aggressively and proactively punish Izzy for Josh's behavior. None of the others made statements like this, but I think it's possible that more of the older children would implement draconian rules on their own children to protect them from what they were told was relatively "common" behavior.

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I agree. I posted something about this on the Jill and Derick thread. During the interview that Jill and Jessa did (or soon afterward), Jill said something about thinking her parents did a great job of dealing with the abuse and put rules in place to prevent it from happening again., and she said that she would probably use those same rules herself. She didn't say which rules she meant specifically, but there were rules that prevented boys from changing diapers of girl babies, no touching or games that included touching, the infamous "side hugs," and locks on the girls' bedroom door (and I think on Josh's door, too).

I think that it's a real possibility that if Jill had a daughter, she would just assume that Izzy would molest her, and would aggressively and proactively punish Izzy for Josh's behavior. None of the others made statements like this, but I think it's possible that more of the older children would implement draconian rules on their own children to protect them from what they were told was relatively "common" behavior.

I do remember her saying that. I don't remember any of the rest of them mentioning the rules, but I am pretty sure Jessa was the one saying in the interview that these things were common in many families. Even if it wasn't her, whichever one was saying that I am sure was just parroting back what they were told. :( And I can't help but think that will inevitably affect their parenting and how they view their children. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[hathorlive]

I would wager that there will be no plea agreement for Josh.  The only deal the feds will take is probably 20 years (no one ever gets consecutive sentences if found guilty in my experience).  If found guilty by a jury, he's likely to get around 10 years, depending on the scale and scope of what was found.  Juries don't like child predators.  Even fundies in Arkansas are going to be disgusted by this.  Many of my trials have shown the images or videos in court. I always watch the juries' reaction.  Shock, anger, disgust...there's no way that the jury won't have heard that he molested his sisters.  So any potentially sympathetic "Christian" on the jury is not going to be inclined to help him out.  The prosecutors know this and are not going to offer him a sweetheart deal.  

Edited May 1, 2021 by hathorlive

[emmawoodhouse]

Jill WAS the one who infamously said in the Megyn Kelly interview that "statistics showed" that 2/3 of families suffered that kind of abuse. That number came from Gothard, of course. 

It illustrates the poison Boobchelle were feeding their children to justify the actions of one.

[Lady Whistleup]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Jill WAS the one who infamously said in the Megyn Kelly interview that "statistics showed" that 2/3 of families suffered that kind of abuse. That number came from Gothard, of course. 

It illustrates the poison Boobchelle were feeding their children to justify the actions of one.

Ok a few years ago I had an unpleasant run-in on a social media site where someone who claimed to have a fundie background actually defended Josh saying that this sort of thing happens in "every family" and "most of the time, the girls are willing." When I said this was categorically not true, he blocked me. 

So that kind of poisonous thinking is out there.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[SMama]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes I think so! To be honest, there is a lot that bothers me about how they handled the molestations, but what really pisses me off the most is more about the way the girls were treated (and the innocent brothers.) Instead of dealing with Josh as the problem and with all that entails and providing supportive therapy for the other poor kids (I know they got "therapy" but I am not convinced it was real therapy), they repeatedly diminished what happened and came up with a bunch of rules that basically just serves to teach them that it is inevitable you will be molested by an older brother. That really bothers me. 

This! The girls had to sleep in a locked dorm because of what Josh did, and sleep in their street clothes. The boys and girls were unfairly separated. At the smaller house they should have had Josh sleep at Grandma Mary’s. Heck, build him a shed in the backyard. At the TTH, Josh should have had his own room where HE was locked from the outside at night.  I know it sounds cruel but the TTH has intercoms and security cameras. They could get to him quickly in case of an emergency. 
 

During the Megyn Kelly interview JB said why punish the rest of the kids (end the show) for something they did not do. Yet that is exactly what JB and M did to their kids, while coddling King Josh.

During that interview JB made a point to note Josh was not a pedophile because the term is 16 and older. What about now, you hypocrite motherfucker? We need to put the pressure on TLC to dump this family. Their show is predicated on what Godly, perfect parents they are. I’ll never watch a TLC show ever again. 

[emmawoodhouse]

5 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Ok a few years ago I had an unpleasant run-in on a social media site where someone who claimed to have a fundie background actually defended Josh saying that this sort of thing happens in "every family" and "most of the time, the girls are willing." When I said this was categorically not true, he blocked me. 

So that kind of poisonous thinking is out there.

I know fundies are terrified if adult porn (see the movie Fireproof). But to normalize the sexual abuse of children is sick. And just makes it easier for perps like Smuggar to find victims.