Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[JoanArc]

Josh must be sweating bullets right now. I wonder if Anna knew about the accusations before the marriage (true or not)? I can see a quickie marriage to naive Anna would've cleaned up Josh rep and gotten his boner under control.

 

It seems like 'sources' could've leaked the report and made it legit. I've read that places like The Enquirer aren't allowed to publish total lies (laws were put in place after a lotta lawsuits), so maybe there's a kernel of truth somewhere. A 5 second hug is 'inappropriate touching' so who knows what went on.

 

One way or another I hope we finally get the truth after all those years of rumors and whispers.

[Almost 3000]

I just can't believe Jim Bob would turn him in. I think they would deal with it in their own "godly" way. 

I can't believe JB would turn him in to authorities either. That said...These rumors have been around for a long time and are attributed to a poster on TWoP. I thought they were pretty much discounted as part of that poster being found to have many false on-line identities. Anyway, I've always felt the need to mention this when this rumor rears its ugly head. Is it true, doubtful but maybe. Is it false, probably.

[JennyMominFL]

Even if it is true, what does that mean?  Did he have sex at 17 with a 16 year old girl. That is statutory rape in some states. Did he kiss her, touch her?

I mean in fundy land this is a real sin. To many people it's normal teenage behavio. Is he going to be ostracized for in his comminity for something most people consider normal..

 This is why Ican't help but feel bad for these people

Unless the accusation is something TRULY over the line, then all bets are off

Edited May 20, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[CofCinci]

Josh must be sweating bullets right now. I wonder if Anna knew about the accusations before the marriage (true or not)? I can see a quickie marriage to naive Anna would've cleaned up Josh rep and gotten his boner under control.

It seems like 'sources' could've leaked the report and made it legit. I've read that places like The Enquirer aren't allowed to publish total lies (laws were put in place after a lotta lawsuits), so maybe there's a kernel of truth somewhere. A 5 second hug is 'inappropriate touching' so who knows what went on.

One way or another I hope we finally get the truth after all those years of rumors and whispers.

Tabloids rarely publish lies these days. How many InTouch covers outed Bruce Jenner over the years? These are sexual abuse allegations. I can't see these magazines playing around with such litigious material.

I think the Duggars are either asking TLC or People for more money for future seasons or photo spreads. The companies don't want to pay what ridiculous figure Jim Bob snatched out, so they leaked a story that they once helped conceal. Or perhaps even someone at the FRC wants Josh out and this is the quickest way to do it.

[JoanArc]

 

I can't see these magazines playing around with such litigious material.

Me either. This isn't like the 'Jana wants a new car!' stuff they usually toss around for clicks.

 

 

Or perhaps even someone at the FRC wants Josh out and this is the quickest way to do it.

Politics, and political jobs, can be that way.

Edited May 20, 2015 by JoanArc

[CofCinci]

Even if it is true, what does that mean? Did he have sex at 17 with a 16 year old girl. That is statutory rape in some states. Did he kiss her, touch her?

I mean in fundy land this is a real sin. To many people it's normal teenage behavio. Is he going to be ostracized for in his comminity for something most people consider normal..

This is why Ican't help but feel bad for these people

Unless the accusation is something TRULY over the line, then all bets are off

Sexual assault fourth degree:

http://www.womenslaw.org/statutes_detail.php?statute_id=5886#statute-top

[JennyMominFL]

Sexual assault fourth degree:

http://www.womenslaw.org/statutes_detail.php?statute_id=5886#statute-top

Interesting. Was Josh over 20? For some reason, I thought he was younger.

Edited May 20, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[CofCinci]

Interesting. Was Josh over 20. For some reason, I thought he was younger.

He was under 18. Most likely why the charge was dropped?

[McManda]

Interesting. Was Josh over 20. For some reason, I thought he was younger.

That article doesn't make sense. It says they pursued a 4th degree sexual assault charge while he was a minor (aka under 18), but from what I can tell it sounds like that charge is only applicable if the actor (that is, the assailant) is over 20. So which is it?

Edited May 20, 2015 by McManda

[CofCinci]

ftp://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/acts/2009/Public/ACT630.pdf

Looks likes the 4th degree sexual assault guidelines were changed in 2009. Wonder what the guidelines were prior?

[McManda]

From the top of that document:

"Stricken language would be deleted from and underlined language would be added to the law as it existed prior to this session of the General Assembly."

 

So it looks like they added subsection (2) [the stuff about Department of Corrections] and reworded some things to match.

Edited May 20, 2015 by McManda

[Sew Sumi]

Josh was under 18 at the time too, right? Poor kid probably side hugged wrong.

The age of consent in AR is 16.

[McManda]

Which means despite whatever personal convictions they hold, as long as she was at least 16 and everything was consensual it wasn't rape, statutory or otherwise.

 

Logically, though, the article mentions the state trooper that investigated the case was convicted of child porn charges in 2005, so it had to have happened before that. Josh was ~17 then. Arkansas law also allows for colloquial "Romeo and Juliet laws", so if they were both under 18 but older than 14 and everything was consensual it still wasn't rape or assault.

[becca3891]

 

What the what is this article?? True or not?????

 

http://radaronline.c...x-abuse-report/

WOW. I know we need to be careful not to blindly believe a tabloid, but something about this rings true to me. The "sin in the camp" story always rang true to me too, even though I know it could never be verified. If you think about it, never once have they claimed that Josh was "pure" before marriage, just that he was pure while courting Anna. Again, I am not assuming his guilt, but this to me just doesn't sound made up. A tabloid would be foolish to publish such a potentially slanderous story, too, without being pretty sure of the facts. This is troubling.

[Micks Picks]

Tis the political season again.  Daily Mail shows many pictures of him with Sanctorum and others so I imagine it's the usual job of digging up dirt on your opposite party.  A nice slap at the place Josh works as well.  Pick a peripheral player to as many people, organizations as you can and sully the whole bunch with one shot.

[CarolMK]

I remember seeing this years ago too on TWOP. I think I'd even read that Josh was "pre-engaged" to one of the Holt girls and they were both 16 at the time. We saw the Holt family in the very first special of 14 Kids and Pregnant again as well as cousin Amy when they all went roller skating and then never saw them again. The rumor I read was that Josh "touched a girl's blouse while she was sleeping" or something like it. Then the rumor of his being shipped off to ALERT and returning with a shaved head which was shown during their move from their original house to their rental house.

 

I have no idea why this is even being brought up now though. It looks like no charges were filed, there was no arrest and it sounds like probably no real investigation . What more could there be to the story? The Duggars are not going to address or talk about it. 

[Happyfatchick]

Josh was under 18 at the time too, right? Poor kid probably side hugged wrong.

Exactly!

IF it happened, JimBob may have reported it because someone else saw it too and threatened him in some way. And IF it happened, the article says JB found out something "inappropriate" happened. Oh come ON!!! In the world of JimBob, pretty much EVERYTHING is inappropriate. The siblings side hug! They could have (seriously!) been holding hands!!! Heaven forbid if they locked lips! These people creep me OUT with their "inappropriateness". How ridiculous is this?

When my oldest son was 15, he was suspended from the bus for 2 days for kissing his girlfriend when they reached her stop. No tongue (sorry!), just a kiss. My OTHER son got ISS in school when HE was 15 for hugging his girlfriend. When the AP called to tell me about the hugging incident, he said, "your son has been placed in ISS for hugging another student during school today." I'm thinking "a hug? Are you being serious?" Because from his tone, I gathered this was a MAJOR life event. I'm not all that quick on my feet, so I said carefully, "was this a boy student or a girl student?" I know the rules are reasonable and in place to keep kids and their hormones in line. Thankfully they didn't find the weed in his locker. (Jk)

I'm being serious again, now. For one thing, it couldn't have been such a dead issue for so long if there were any "meat" in this alleged fourth degree sexual assault. (Rape is 4th degree? Really? I guess 1st, 2nd and 3rd involve weapons). Secondly, there may have been some sort of incident, but in their world, fingertips touching constitutes some major fraudulent activity.

And did all of the cases being investigated by the child porn cop get dropped when he was busted? I mean, lucky for the guy who murdered three people, right? How bizarre.

[Lillybee]

In Gothard circles serious sexual sins could be a stolen kill or touching someone's boob so I really have to defend Josh, I really don't think it was a big deal. But I do believe, reference the buzz cut, that he was sent to a Gothard retraining camp which is not Alert. Those re-training centers were awful.

[Celia Rubenstein]

It just stuns me that Jim Bob would drag his own son in to the cops.  If Josh had done anything heinous enough to deserve it, charges probably would have been pursued I would think.  Would the cops really just let a serious case lapse because the cop himself was arrested? Is there no one to pick up the slack?  Or did the cops let the case languish until the statute of limitations had passed because they thought it was meritless? There is no way to know, I guess.

 

Assuming that it was a meritless case because it was some relatively minor thing Josh did, either Jim Bob is a raging asshole willing to ruin his son's life to punish him for some minor transgression, or Jim Bob is a raging asshole who would ruin his son's life to appease some fellow religious crony who was pissed Josh was caught ? making out with his daughter? or something.  

 

Either way it seems like Jim Bob is sure an asshole.  I don't know how Josh could ever forgive him. 

 

That is of course unless Josh did something really evil.  In which case he probably still has not forgiven his father for turning him in.      Yeah, when your dad turns you in for being a molester, I think that pretty much spoils your relationship with him.

 

ETA: this is all said assuming there is some truth to this story .... and I think there is, personally.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[kalamac]

Maybe Boob leaked the story, to try and get Josh back under his control.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Oh what a horrible thought, kalamac! First Jim Bob turns Josh in to the cops then years later he leaks the story just to screw with him LOL!!  

 

I think that would take Jim Bob from the category of regular asshole into "gaping flaring asshole" territory

[Micks Picks]

Kalamak I hate to think this.  It sounds more like the political dirty tricks stuff I mentioned.  But if it was Boob wanting to get Josh back, or jealous of his son's career, that would be so very unforgivable.  He'd be making Josh poison with his job and every politician he ever had a picture with.  That's why I still think it is more likely to be opposition tactics.  If not, wow.  There was also an article in the Mail about some Hillary "supporter" and operative referring to many dead bodies Hillary is responsible for.  Oy Vey, or however you spell it!

[GEML]

Here is why I'm skeptical that there is anything to it. Huckabee is a big fish, and the Holts are close to Huckabee. They all used to be close to the Duggars, but if it were really Josh who was the problem, they all would have known, and there is NO WAY he would have been given the job with the FRC.

On the other hand, if the reason for the divide among the families came about because of something stupid that Jim Bob did, and then suddenly this story about Josh starts circulating, these folks may feel terribly sorry for Josh and actually find the young man a job years later to get him out of AR.

Because the rift seems to be healed between Josh and the Holts/Huckabees. It is still barely speaking terms with JB/Holts/Huckabees.

Just doesn't seem like this is about Josh to me.

[Zahdii]

I think the Duggar parents are selfish idiots.  I think Josh is also an idiot, and smug, but he gets less snark from me (not no snark, just less snark) because he was raised to be the way he is.

 

I've heard the 'sin in the camp' story for years, and suddenly it's hit the news?  But not the legitimate news, just the gossip mongers 'news'.  Speculation has Josh doing everything from frontal hugging, to kissing, to copping a feel of a sleeping girl, to having sex (with or without the consent of the girl), and speculation of incest.  I think Razing Ruth first reported the rumors.  RR was eventually outed as a woman who had multiple online names, personas, and eventually lost custody of her children in part because of her online activities. 

 

Razing Ruth got a lot of attention from the Free Jinger site, as well as a couple of others.  Eventually she started a thread called 'All Things Razing Ruth'  on FJ:  http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=17372

 

By the time the thread got to 42 pages, so many discrepencies in her stories cropped up, and so many people had started to link her with her other online personas a new thread was started.  The Truth About Ruth:  http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=18315

 

In the end there were four threads devoted to exposing Razing Ruth.  Links to public documents were published.  Timelines showing how she was posting on different blogs posing as different people.  The mods on FJ finally admitted that towards the end they checked and realized that although two different 'bloggers' were actually posting one after the other from the same location (even though they were supposed to be in different states), and that those blogs coincided with the area's the blog of the actual real life woman was posting from.  To their credit, they didn't go checking on IP addresses just because they were being nosy, they checked because so many Free Jingerites were coming up with so many things that didn't add up, the mods checked things out and provided the final proof that Razing Ruth was not a real person.

 

Since a fake blogger started the Josh rumors about 'sin in the camp', I don't want to give this story too much traction.  I admit, that if a teenager forced hugs, kisses, fondling, or sex on an unwilling girl that's something that needs to be addressed as quickly as possible.  But in the absence of witnesses willing to come forward and corroborate the story, and no way of telling if legal documents were filed or what an investigation revealed, at this point there doesn't appear to be a lot of substance here.

 

I like a bit of gossip, but I'll wait for something more concrete before I get out the burning torches.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Zahdii

[GEML]

The only thing we know about that time frame is that the Duggars and the Holts had a falling out, and it appears that the Holts and Huckabees aren't completely ready to forgive and forget, JB and Michelle are. I don't see why JB isn't capable of screwing that relationship up on his own.

[MLE]

I know these are rumors that've been around forever, and many have written them off as internet drama(I know I had) but I just don't believe InTouch would open themselves up to that kind of lawsuit. There is such a huge difference between "Jana is courting Tim Tebow!" and "Josh Duggar committed a sex crime." No matter how vague these "sources" are... that just isn't something you publish unless you  are very confident in your vague sources.

[Emme]

The TLC facebook page is in full-on delete and deny mode. Something must be up behind the scenes, because they aren't normally so quick to react.

If this is a false allegation, InTouch (I think they were first with it) could be in for some hefty slander (or is it libel when written?) litigation against them.

Yes - libel is in cases of print Sew Sumi. Also of note, in defamation (libel, slander) cases against public figures, the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove actual intent of malice or harm from the publisher.

However, I'm not sure how that all changes taking into account Josh's status as a minor at the time of the alleged events.

I will say, I have long heard the "sin in the camp" rumors, and certainly believed something happened. However, as many of you have pointed out, it's hard to know what would be considered "inappropriate" in their universe.

It certainly gives reason for JimBoob's thinly-veiled hatred of Josh, particularly if he derailed his dad's political career.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Emme

[galax-arena]

For one thing, it couldn't have been such a dead issue for so long if there were any "meat" in this alleged fourth degree sexual assault.

Sexual assaults are swept under the rug and dismissed all the time. One of the wonderful hallmarks of living in a rape culture.

 

That said, even though I don't think that InTouch pulled this story completely out of their ass because that's a libel lawsuit waiting to happen, I'm not sure there's much to these allegations, because I'm still having a hard time believing Jim Bob going to the authorities over it. Guess someone could have forced his hand....

[GEML]

Given how badly this played out in the media the last time, how sketchily the reporting is this time, and (again) how little of a grudge people supposedly connected to this story (such as the Holts) seem to hold towards Josh but DO hold towards Jim Bob, whatever there is to this story isn't what we are hearing in this sound bite.

[SoSueMe]

And then, there is a school of thought that any publicity is good publicity. Maybe another way to keep viewership up?

[JoanArc]

True or not, I'm thinking Josh is fighting for his job right about now.

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree that Josh's job is probably on the line in light of the story.  I am a viewer who has always liked all of the Duggar kids, even Josh, though I feel differently about the parents.    Despite all his faults, I think it's so unfair to derail this man's life and career, due to some allegation from when he was 17 years old.  Plus, he was never charged with anything.  I really don't like that.  I wouldn't want it to happen to my brother or husband.  Once that allegation gets out there, it's almost impossible to erase.  

[Literata]

 

I'm still having a hard time believing Jim Bob going to the authorities over it. Guess someone could have forced his hand....

Agreed. And the whole thing just makes me very sad.

 

I go back and forth as far as my feelings for Smuggar, but I do remember the special in which he came back from somewhere with a shaved head, and he seemed quiet and detached, as opposed to his persona in the other two specials. I wondered what had happened, and I felt bad for him. I also remember feeling, as he was getting ready to propose to Anna, that he was a really lonely guy who was so wanting a relationship with someone.

 

It's been obvious for a long time that the relationship between Boob and Smuggar is strained, but I, too, have a hard time believing Boob would have turned in his own son, especially given that Smuggar is the only child (besides Josie) whom MEchelle seems to like. If it actually happened, what a shame for the whole family. Something that major had to have a ripple effect on all the relationships.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Literata

[anony mouse]

Sexual assaults are swept under the rug and dismissed all the time. One of the wonderful hallmarks of living in a rape culture.

That said, even though I don't think that InTouch pulled this story completely out of their ass because that's a libel lawsuit waiting to happen, I'm not sure there's much to these allegations, because I'm still having a hard time believing Jim Bob going to the authorities over it. Guess someone could have forced his hand....

At the same time, libel suits haven't really stopped the tabloids. Tom Cruise just recently sued (again) some tabloid and won. So it isn't as if the threat of suit is a real deterrent for these rags.

[Hpmec]

I'm curious as to why the story is being unearthed now. Who is behind it and why? Certainly no one in the Duggar camp would want this type of negative publicity. Only thought at this point is that someone in the circle of the girl's family or friends with knowledge of what happened has it in for the Duggars and contacted the tabloids. That source must have provided enough verifiable information that the media outlets that ran with the story were comfortable doing so.

Josh will probably have some explaining to do at work. However, this was a long time ago and the matter was apparently never seriously pursued by the authorities. Pure speculation on my part, but if JB did turn Josh in at the time, it had to have been under pressure from either the girl's family or the police. It would be very uncharacteristic of Boob to act on his own.

At any rate, I expect that if the Duggars say anything at all about this it will be to characterize it as vicious, untrue rumors. I don't think there will be any long lasting repercussions. Conservatives tend to be very forgiving of the indescretions of fellow conservatives, and given that this is old stuff anyway, I think it will be quickly forgotten.

[JoanArc]

 

I'm curious as to why the story is being unearthed now. Who is behind it and why?

The Duggars dumped poor Rick Santorum for Huckabee. Honestly it could be ANYONE in politics/the election right now.

[SunnyBeBe]

I am NOT on the same page with Josh politically at all.  I just hate for any untrue allegation, especially from a childhood incident tear someone's life apart.  He will probably get legal advice and then resign his job, saying God has led him elsewhere.  It's unfortunate.  

[trimthatfat]

I agree that Josh's job is probably on the line in light of the story.  I am a viewer who has always liked all of the Duggar kids, even Josh, though I feel differently about the parents.    Despite all his faults, I think it's so unfair to derail this man's life and career, due to some allegation from when he was 17 years old.  Plus, he was never charged with anything.  I really don't like that.  I wouldn't want it to happen to my brother or husband.  Once that allegation gets out there, it's almost impossible to erase.  

I agree. If this is true, then Josh should have to deal with the consequences, but if it's not and this is just really a rumor, that honestly sucks. I mean, the damage has likely already been done regardless.

[zenme]

I agree. If this is true, then Josh should have to deal with the consequences, but if it's not and this is just really a rumor, that honestly sucks. I mean, the damage has likely already been done regardless.

 

I agree, as well, and like a fellow poster said, this type of behavior is often minimized or swept under the rug, and the consequences for the victim are devastating and life-long. 

If this alleged act was consensual, then maybe Josh should deal with the issue head on and tell his side of the truth. Maybe this would forever put the speculation to rest. 

I would imagine that Anna is somewhat aware of Josh's past.

[IndianPaintbrush]

I'm not sure that Josh's job is in jeopardy.  He was never charged or convicted of anything.  I suspect the FRC knew about it when they hired him because these rumors have always been around.

[GEML]

Twenty years in DC, and unless there is WAY more here (such as a young woman about to go on Oprah) then no, Josh's job isn't in jeopardy and everyone already knew about this.

[JoanArc]

 

I'm not sure that Josh's job is in jeopardy.  He was never charged or convicted of anything.

Neither was Gothard.

[IndianPaintbrush]

Neither was Gothard.

Gothard was a completely different situation.

[GEML]

Right now we have people claiming to have seen a police report. Not an actual copy of a police report, if I understand the article correctly. We don't have a young woman coming forward. Anything that did take place involved two minors.

Believe me, in DC, this isn't even worth looking up from your desk.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

[sniip

IF it happened, JimBob may have reported it because someone else saw it too and threatened him in some way. And IF it happened, the article says JB found out something "inappropriate" happened. Oh come ON!!! In the world of JimBob, pretty much EVERYTHING is inappropriate. The siblings side hug! They could have (seriously!) been holding hands!!! Heaven forbid if they locked lips! These people creep me OUT with their "inappropriateness". How ridiculous is this?

[snip]

I'm being serious again, now. For one thing, it couldn't have been such a dead issue for so long if there were any "meat" in this alleged fourth degree sexual assault. (Rape is 4th degree? Really? I guess 1st, 2nd and 3rd involve weapons). Secondly, there may have been some sort of incident, but in their world, fingertips touching constitutes some major fraudulent activity.

And did all of the cases being investigated by the child porn cop get dropped when he was busted? I mean, lucky for the guy who murdered three people, right? How bizarre.

 

While the Duggars clearly have some uptight views on physical affection, I'm pretty sure Jim Bob knows the difference between "what's unacceptable for Gothardites" and "what the police actually give a crap about." For all his faults, I tend to think that if JB took Josh to the police station, there was probably a decent reason for it. Perhaps it was a pre-emptive measure because another family was threatening to file charges; in other words, if they didn't take Josh in, someone was going to come looking to question him sooner or later, so might as well get it over with. I doubt we'll ever know the whole story, but I'm reluctant to always jump to the most extreme version of "Duggars are stupid in every situation" just because they are stupid in some ways.

[JennyMominFL]

Yeah, actually, I can see JB going in to the police station to straighten things out. A preemptive strike ,so to speak. Not neccessarily as turn Josh in scenario.  

[GEML]

I can't imagine that a parent in today's world would be so foolish as to turn a child in as a pre-emptive strike. As someone who lived in a world surrounded by attorneys, married to attorney, and living in one of the most litigious counties in the U.S., I have a hard time believing ANY parent who is remotely savvy would turn a child in unless charges were brought.

Yes, I know people think JB is stupid, but I think he had hired some smart people. He would have been a total fool to hand his son over.

Perhaps he did, and was, and this is why savvier people such as the Holts and Huckabees realized he couldn't be trusted with politics, I don't know. But if he did, that was a world class dumb move. First rule when police show up at your door : do you have a warrant?

Edited May 20, 2015 by GEML

[JocelynCavanaugh]

I guess I disagree that any instance of taking a child to a police station is instantly "turning him in" or "handing him over" to the authorities.

[GEML]

You let the police come to you. You don't go to them. That's how headlines like this one get written.

[JoanArc]

The alleged incident happened post-first TV special, pre-weekly TV show, correct? I think we've forgotten how much fame has changed the Duggars over the years (for both better and worse). 2005 Duggar thinking was probably a bit different, and they were likely still living most of their values (and still close to starvation), so maybe Jim Bob would've turned them Josh in.

 

I could also see Jim Bob doing a preemptive turn in to stop the girl's father from doing so. Jim Bob's always been a backroom-dealing, slimy, slippery, dishonest snake. Maybe he had enough pull with the local cops/community to minimize the investigation. Good ol' boy Duggar networking.

 

I'd love to know what's really going on behind the scenes. I bet it's minimally connected to the story we've been told. Jill needs to announce a pregnancy quick to draw attention away!