S06.E05: The Door

[FemmyV]

Enjoy isn't the word I would use for E5. Compelled, perhaps? Geez ...

Sansa/Baelish: He really does have a pre-civ Tardis around, somewhere. It's a good thing Sansa's not too bright for her own good, not yet. If she was trying to play LF, he'd have been wise to it. Of course she's right to be angry with him and feel betrayed, but she still hasn't quite put it together, just how much and how many of them have all been his pawns. Sansa's catching on, though. A few more steps and maybe she'll figure out how to use his army and leave him spinning. Sidenote:  Would Arya, due to her time at Harrenhall, be able to piece together LF's role?

Sansa / Jon: "Jon is every bit Ned's Stark's son as Ramsey is Roose Bolton's." Not, "every bit as much as Rob, Bran and Rickon," and not "every bit as much as I and Arya are Ned's daughters." And that is why I will never, ever, be a Jonsa shipper. She does not view him as her equal. Period. Her attitude may change with the whole R + L business, and that's just as much reason why Jon deserves so much better than what she offers him as a mate.

Brie: If she goes to the Riverlands and encounters Jamie, maybe she'll see the difference between having someone attracted to her unwillingly, and someone who thinks she's all that and a hand grenade.

Arya: Thank goodness, her stuff is finally back on a moving track. The play reads so much like pro-Cersei propaganda, I have to wonder if her money paid for it. One would think Arya would have no qualms killing the Cersei actress, in this case. I can't blame her for being affected by the play, PTSD-wise, but if I were her, in the interest of the Starks, I'd want to shut that shit down.

Kingsmoot proves you can do drama without a built-up, expensive set. Euron is way more normal than I expected from the book, and it's easy to see why he won the argument: Euron brings the party! Asha & Theon stealing off with the ships was awesome. Someday, Theon will be able to speechify all he wants. But not this day.

Dany/Jorah: Awww. I'm glad she finally forgave Jorah, and that he's humbled up and fessed up in every way. The scene showed how they both are vulnerable, and showed why I totally reject the Dany's-insane arguments. She's very much a human, our girl.

Mereen: has anyone else noticed the use of propaganda and origin stories in this episode? From the puppet play, the Children, FM, Kingsmoot, and now Tyrion is buying propaganda for Dany. I digress. I can't blame Varys for his reaction to the Red Priestess, but she handled him brilliantly and I'm not even sure if she's a good witch or a bad witch.

Bran & Co: Although the WW origin story was a little anti-climax, I far prefer what we got to the Brother From Another Planet scenario some Reddit peeps present. That's just all kinds of convoluted.

The vision with the undead army & NK was scary shit. But if he can put his mark on Bran and get to him anywhere, and get past whatever enchantments are put up, why even bother to run? If they go beyond the Wall, surely he can get through, now. And now that it is time to run, 3ER keeps them tied up so he can show Bran how Hodor got his name? This is why I hate most time travel stories: it's not the idea that you can't change anything by going back, it's that time travel stories often create a loop where characters are actually forced to loop back, ad infinitum.

On the plus side, Team Stark is doing a decent job of wiping out NK's generals. To the neg, oh, Summer. Oh, Hodor. Cannot stand the idea of either of them becoming wights.

Query: if the NK was originally a NW guard, who was the original Dead Head (and where is NK now)?

Query: Will Bran be able to challenge NK (or whoever that is) by warging into the wights or other things and stealing his troops. Not very complicated, those wights.

Edited May 23, 2016 by FemmyV
add about Bran

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Omniscience (knowing what's going to happen) does not negate the free will of the actors.

Actually, omniscience and free-will are mutually exclusive. If everyone has free-will at all times and circumstances, then no one can have future knowledge, thus are not omniscient. There are many little examples of true prophecy in the books, thus events are (to a degree) pre-ordained. The House of the Undying, Patchface, the Ghost of High Heart, Moquorro, Maggy, Melisandre even (perhaps) - all of those predicted future events and tend to back this up. Of course they could be reading future probabilities, but there have been so many hits and not enough misses. But my main point was that omniscience and free-will are not compatible. (note: reading future possibilities is different than being omniscient)

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

But it means something right? Either they're dying to foreshadow the Starks they're tied to dying, or they are symbols of the stupidity of Ned Stark in S1. If his children are less stupid and honorable than Ned their wolves will die. My point was that human characters on the show can be flayed and have their privates cut off and it's all fun and entertainment, and then when a wolf that has had no lines so far dies fighting zombies people get upset. I just don't understand it.

For me it's part having an attachment to the wolves because of first meeting them in a warm and happy family time and partially because people such as Theon who have suffered horrible atrocities helped set in motion some of the consequences that happened to them.  Another part for me is the Ramsey storyline in general is a real challenge and I struggled to grit my way through the Theon chapters because of it.  I definitely have pity in my heart for Theon's tragedy, but the wolves are pretty much suffering consequences they didn't bring about.   

The wolves are also incredibly loyal, which is heartwarming.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Tikichick
Added detail

[The Mormegil]

5 hours ago, morgankobi said:

Is the actor in the pic above the same one who actually plays the Night King?

Were there many blonde Starks? (He seems pretty blonde to me.)

I believe so.

 

In previous seasons the Night's King was played by someone else but in this season the character is played by this guy

[Fishslap]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

For me it's part having an attachment to the wolves because of first meeting them in a warm and happy family time and partially because people such as Theon who have suffered horrible atrocities helped set in motion some of the consequences that happened to them.  Another part for me is the Ramsey storyline in general is a real challenge and I struggled to grit my way through the Theon chapters because of it.  I definitely have pity in my heart for Theon's tragedy, but the wolves are pretty much suffering consequences they didn't bring about.   

The wolves are also incredibly loyal, which is heartwarming.

Yes that's true. But then Gregor Celgaine is also incredibly loyal to the degenerate Lannisters, and he's not especially heart warming. When it comes down to it the wolves were always symbols of the Starks, so as they go through the wringer so do the wolves. It would be weird to have Robb dead, Sansa being raped in Winterfell, Arya being a blind beggar in Braavos, Jon being murdered in a mutiny, Rickon in Ramsay's torture dungeon and Bran being dragged around the North Pole by a girl and then everything being right as rain with their wolves. I still say it's foreshadowing the death of these people. We'll see I guess.

PS: Since people were talking about it above, Sansa lied to Jon because she's embarrassed I think. She did manage to fall in love with LF not too long ago, or at least make a misguided attempt to play him with her feminine viles. So she's both a rape victim after being married to Ramsay and a spurned seductress over her overtures to LF in that opening scene, and she's both angry and ashamed of both roles. Enough to keep it hidden from Jon probably.

[Tikichick]

Just now, Fishslap said:

Yes that's true. But then Gregor Celgaine is also incredibly loyal to the degenerate Lannisters, and he's not especially heart warming. When it comes down to it the wolves were always symbols of the Starks, so as they go through the wringer so do the wolves. It would be weird to have Robb dead, Sansa being raped in Winterfell, Arya being a blind beggar in Braavos, Jon being murdered in a mutiny, Rickon in Ramsay's torture dungeon and Bran being dragged around the North Pole by a girl and then everything being right as rain with their wolves. I still say it's foreshadowing the death of these people. We'll see I guess.

PS: Since people were talking about it above, Sansa lied to Jon because she's embarrassed I think. She did manage to fall in love with LF not too long ago, or at least make a misguided attempt to play him with her feminine viles. So she's both a rape victim after being married to Ramsay and a spurned seductress over her overtures to LF in that opening scene, and she's both angry and ashamed of both roles. Enough to keep it hidden from Jon probably.

I was actually responding more to your comment about why more reaction about the wolves dying than things like Theon's torture and suffering.

As far as the symbolism of the wolves to the Starks, yes.  Don't forget it's likely not for nothing that Jon's wolf is white & named Ghost.  All of the names are seemingly rather significant to their counterpart Stark, which may be awfully interesting regarding Arya if Nymeria follows any of the trajectory of her namesake.

[mrspidey]

33 minutes ago, benteen said:

I wonder if this is going to be the last time we see Euron this season, at least until the season finale.  Building a massive war fleet on an island sparse in natural resources takes a LONG time. 

Exactly. Prior to the war against Xerxes, it took Athens ten years to build 200 ships. And then they didn't have enough people to man them so they granted freedom to any slave who'd pick up a rudder. 

Now, the Ironborn are probably more skilled at building ships, but Euron wants 1000 of them...

1000!!!

If the crew of a longship is about 20 to 30 men strong, Euron would need at least 20000 Ironborn to man those. Considering most of the Ironborn sailors absconded with Yara, i find it hard to believe the Iron Islands are even remotely capable of mustering such a force. 

[Misplaced]

6 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Exactly. Prior to the war against Xerxes, it took Athens ten years to build 200 ships. And then they didn't have enough people to man them so they granted freedom to any slave who'd pick up a rudder. 

Now, the Ironborn are probably more skilled at building ships, but Euron wants 1000 of them...

1000!!!

If the crew of a longship is about 20 to 30 men strong, Euron would need at least 20000 Ironborn to man those. Considering most of the Ironborn sailors absconded with Yara, i find it hard to believe the Iron Islands are even remotely capable of mustering such a force. 

I am pretty sure Euron said Yara took off with their "best" ships, not all their ships ....and in any case, both Euron and Yara said as ruler they would build a massive fleet (well -- Yara said she'd build the largest fleet ever, yadda yadda, and Euron swooped in to say he actually knew what to do with it).  So the ship-building plan was always on the table. Yara sailing off with the best ships means Euron has fewer to start with, but his line seems clear that there are some left --- even though it sure looked like the whole fleet was tagging along (hard to tell which were just anchored in the bay and which were sailing away?). 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Misplaced
Proofreading...

[Le Renard]

They're burning through the story rapidly this season. It's rushed. It's disappointing that RR Martin didn't finish at least 1 of the 2 books. We could have had a richer, more fleshed out story.

[Alapaki]

Herewith, the thoughts of someone who's had 4 hours in a car today to contemplate what I saw last night:

Re: Littlefinger and Sansa - Forget about whether Littlefinger was telling the truth about Riverrun (I think the casting for this season suggests he was).  The question is why he would give Sansa that information.  Littlefinger doesn't give anything away for free or without a motive.  He had to know that this news would draw Sansa out of Castle Black and headed south.  If he wanted her hurt, he could've done that himself long ago.

Rather, I think he wants her as bait.  I think his next stop is Winterfell, where he tells Ramsey that he's "learned" that Sansa and Jon Snow are heading south. He will anticipate this news drawing Ramsey and his army out from behind the walls of Winterfell.

Then, as I think was actually stated by him in an earlier season (or maybe in the books), he'll sit back, wait to see which way the battle is going, "join the fray" on the winning side and come across like a white knight in shining armor.

On Bran, my question is why the 3ER showed him that particular day at Winterfell.  Was there any significance to seeing his grandfather sending his father off to ward in the Vale?  I don't think so.  Was it to give Bran the idea to warg into Hodor?  He'd already done that, and the 3ER could've gotten Bran to do that simply by telling him to while they were under the Tree.  Was it just to make Bran feel like shit for the rest of his life for what he did to Wyllis?  

If 3ER was rushing to show Bran stuff before the Night's King broke in, then we must conclude that everything 3ER showed Bran was absolutely essential.  

I'm guessing that Bran's ability to paralyze or incapacitate someone through his warging is what the 3ER was showing Bran.  The question is whether he was showing it as a warning so it doesn't happen again, or as knowledge of how it can be used offensively so it does happen.  I'm betting on the latter.

[Shimmergloom]

I doubt the Ironborne can count to 1000.  It'll probably be like 9,10, 1000.  yep.  1000 ships out there.

[Alapaki]

Just now, Shimmergloom said:

I doubt the Ironborne can count to 1000.  It'll probably be like 9,10, 1000.  yep.  1000 ships out there.

I think this very realistic impracticality to Euron's plot demonstrates what can happen when the show tosses off significant elements from the books.  If Euron can offer Dany the Horn, then she doesn't need a fleet.  Three dragons you can control is more valuable than a million Unsullied.  Reducing Euron to a ship builder probably indicates the limited (or nonexistent) role the Ironborn end up playing in the end game.

[Bill1978]

So after sleeping on the episode the question that has been raised by my brain is: What issue does the Night's King have with vision travellers?

Obviously the Night's King recognised Bran for what he could do in the vision, but somehow knew that Bran was connected with the 3ER, so marked Bran so he could get into the tree and kill 3ER. The Wights ignored the guy trapped in the tree, the generals left the guy in the tree for their King to destroy. So I have concluded that there is some back story with the Night King and 3ER.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Fishslap said:

But it means something right? Either they're dying to foreshadow the Starks they're tied to dying, or they are symbols of the stupidity of Ned Stark in S1. If his children are less stupid and honorable than Ned their wolves will die. My point was that human characters on the show can be flayed and have their privates cut off and it's all fun and entertainment, and then when a wolf that has had no lines so far dies fighting zombies people get upset. I just don't understand it.

I certainly don't find castration and flaying fun and entertainment, are people here claiming they do?  I certainly haven't seen it.

Regarding the direwolves - There will always be people upset when animals are killed on TV and in movies, and there will always be people who have problems with that.  Beyond the wolves looking like giant dogs - which a lot people love - there's the fact that they are so bonded with their owner.  And they've either given their lives to protect their Stark (Shaggy Dog, Summer), been killed because they belonged to a Stark (Grey Wind), or been killed by proxy for protecting a Stark (Lady).

And if you believe that each Stark child is connected supernaturally to their dire wolves, and you care about that Stark, you're going to be worried when their dire wolf dies.  They're also connected to a time when life was simpler and happy at Winterfell.  And I'm glad that show lore doesn't involve the wolves feeling their siblings' loss.  Poor Ghost would have been howling for a while now.

It's kind of ironic that people were worrying that Jon's resurrection would involve Ghost's death, and then relieved that Ghost is fine.  Then BAM - Shaggy Dog and Summer.  At this point, I believe the long wished for return of Nymeria will result in a long torturous death.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

The chronology of prehistory is pretty muddled, but this bit about the Children making the White Walkers puts an interesting spin on it.  From the World Book:

It's worth remembering that the World Book itself is actually written from a limited in-universe perspective so the information is not guaranteed free of error. My hunch is that some of the dates got either stretched or smooshed. My hunch is that the peace treaty with the Children didn't happen until AFTER the Long Night (the Last Hero was the peace envoy from a losing or stalemated humanity to the Children... and convinced them to end the war and Long Night) and I'm kinda wondering now if the Walkers aren't pissed off because the Children locked them up in a closet for thousands of years because of that treaty until something recent happened to break them out and that's why they basically hate everyone now.

1 hour ago, DigitalCount said:

On another note, the parallels are flowing fast and furious.

Problem: Your lands are being taken over by humans.
Leaf: I know, I'll recruit someone who cares not a whit about my cause and give him superpowers

...

 

Problem: You need to take back your ancestral werewolfy home from the vampires infesting it.

Jonsa: Let's recruit people who care about our cause, maybe?

And that's why they'll win.

 

I'll admit, I LOL'd because its basically true. Jon and Sansa are the only people looking for allies who actually care about their cause and that is actually the likely reason they'll win in the end.

49 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

But it means something right? Either they're dying to foreshadow the Starks they're tied to dying, or they are symbols of the stupidity of Ned Stark in S1. If his children are less stupid and honorable than Ned their wolves will die.

My hunch is that its symbolism, but not necessarily literal symbolism. If Bran were to become the new Night King to end the Walkers' invasion then he will likely symbolically die (and never know another summer).

I also sometimes wonder if the two female direwolves might have been inadvertently swapped. Arya is certainly no Lady and is cut off from her pack entirely, is busy becoming No One and has suffered every bit the misery that Sansa has (just in different ways). By contrast, Sansa at least on the show is in the process of becoming like Queen Nymeria (who despite being labelled a "warrior queen" she was not a warrior herself, but a commander who did not engage in personal combat) while the direwolf of that name is (at least in the books) gathering a pack of her own to lead.

That probably isn't the case and Sansa being spiritually cut off from Northern magic and such may be the extent of it, but there are some parallels there via the show that aren't yet present in the books. But if the show is following stuff from GRRM in this regard then it could show up in the books too eventually.

38 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Actually, omniscience and free-will are mutually exclusive. If everyone has free-will at all times and circumstances, then no one can have future knowledge, thus are not omniscient.

Again... I know what happened during World War II. Does my knowing how it turned out take away the free will of all the people involved in World War II? They can't change any decision they made because its already happened, but they freely chose to make the choices they did at that time.

If I know that a man is going to rob a bank tomorrow, does my knowledge mean that it wasn't his decision to rob that bank? Did I take away his free will because I knew it would happen?

Free will just means being able to make your own choice, it does not mean that until that choice is made that there are infinite potential results that can never be known until the waveform is collapsed. It just means that the one choice you made was your own at that moment. That we only exist within a universe where you made a given choice at some point in 4D spacetime and someone might know what that choice is before you made it doesn't negate the fact that you made the choice.

[Constantinople]

Tyrion doesn't handle silence well, even for short periods of time.

The simplest and easiest way to put him off his game is to keep quiet until he starts babbling:

• In the S3 premiere when Tywin wrote a letter as Tyrion went on-and-on
   
• Last season when Tyrion was in the boat with Jorah the Silent Andal
   
• Earlier this season when Tyrion, Missandei and Grey Worm were in room together waiting for Varys.  Missandei and Grey Work were OK sitting in silence; Tyrion not so much.

Now Tyrion with the the Lord of Light's Head Priestess, Kinvara.  She spoke, but not as much as Tyrion was expecting and he was distinctly uncomfortable and not just because of who she is.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

Sansa / Jon: "Jon is every bit Ned's Stark's son as Ramsey is Roose Bolton's." Not, "every bit as much as Rob, Bran and Rickon," and not "every bit as much as I and Arya are Ned's daughters." And that is why I will never, ever, be a Jonsa shipper. She does not view him as her equal. Period. Her attitude may change with the whole R + L business, and that's just as much reason why Jon deserves so much better than what she offers him as a mate.

I interpreted that scene differently.  Davos said even the bravest men don't want to watch their families be flayed for a "lost cause".  Then Sansa explained that the North is still loyal to the Starks.  Davos pointed out that Jon's last name isn't Stark, so Sansa pointed out that hers is.  I don't think she was stating her superiority.  The fact is, in the North, like everywhere but Dorne, I guess, bastards are not seen as equals.  I think she was stating the obvious.  And since Ramsay the bastard was able to get men to fight alongside of him and be loyal, and gain Winterfell, Sansa was pointing out (IMO) that the same could hold true for Jon.  I think her overall point is this:  The North is still loyal to the Starks.  We can't get back the North without Northern assistance.  I will be the Stark figurehead and Jon will be the leader, who just like Ramsay, can inspire men to follow and fight alongside him.  Plus, I would imagine the Northerners are more familiar with Sansa than with Jon, and she looks much like Cat, whom the North respected and once loyal to.  Long story short (too late), I think she was talking of how the Northerners will see Jon, not how she now views him.

There are many reasons why I will never be a Jonsa shipper, but the primary one is I find it revolting.

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, morgankobi said:

Of course in the real world genes mix in interesting ways. But in fiction, especially when looks and heritage are described and commented on, a variation within a group isn't usually random. My question has to do with the books. 

Ignore all that on the show. They're barely bothering with blonde Lannisters or black-haired Baratheons and that was a real plot point.

[Sunnydayman]

17 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

All of this blaming of Bran for Hodor's death.  Before Bran warged into Hodor, Hodor was sitting there doing nothing.  So he would have died if Bran hadn't warged into him.  And when he was at the door, Meera was the one screaming to hold the door.  Isn't Bran pretty much out of it after he wargs into Hodor?  It seemed like he wasn't even aware of what was happening.

He was doing nothing because he knew he was about to die.  He was coming to the end of his closed loop.  He should have left Winterfell the moment Bran was born but timey-wimey stuff wouldn't allow it.  I do not like human sacrifice no matter how you couch it.  It almost makes me appreciate Ramsey.  The high born screw over the low born again and again but he at least makes them suffer too.

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Tyrion doesn't handle silence well, even for short periods of time.

The simplest and easiest way to put him off his game is to keep quiet until he starts babbling:

• In the S3 premiere when Tywin wrote a letter as Tyrion went on-and-on
   
• Last season when Tyrion was in the boat with Jorah the Silent Andal
   
• Earlier this season when Tyrion, Missandei and Grey Worm were in room together waiting for Varys.  Missandei and Grey Work were OK sitting in silence; Tyrion not so much.

Now Tyrion with the the Lord of Light's Head Priestess, Kinvara.  She spoke, but not as much as Tyrion was expecting and he was distinctly uncomfortable and not just because of who she is.

For someone who seems to pride himself on being a superior conversationalist, TV Tyrion can be supremely awkward, and I agree that he seems uncomfortable with silence (not surprising for an extrovert). Very different from Tywin.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I think this very realistic impracticality to Euron's plot demonstrates what can happen when the show tosses off significant elements from the books.  If Euron can offer Dany the Horn, then she doesn't need a fleet.  Three dragons you can control is more valuable than a million Unsullied.  Reducing Euron to a ship builder probably indicates the limited (or nonexistent) role the Ironborn end up playing in the end game.

Do you think this is what Euron has in mind, to offer Dany the horn?  I thought he wanted to gain control for himself by ordering Vic or some other Ironborn to blow the horn.  (Not sure how that would work, but I don't see him handing control over to Dany.). I do agree that tossing this plotline from the show over simplifies his motives/actions. 

[Alapaki]

13 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Do you think this is what Euron has in mind, to offer Dany the horn?  I thought he wanted to gain control for himself by ordering Vic or some other Ironborn to blow the horn.  (Not sure how that would work, but I don't see him handing control over to Dany.). I do agree that tossing this plotline from the show over simplifies his motives/actions. 

I thought there was something in the books about Euron telling Victarion he could make Dany his salt-wife (a sort of make-good for Euron's raping Victorian's first wife)?  But maybe I'm misremembering that.

Quote

He was doing nothing because he knew he was about to die.  He was coming to the end of his closed loop.

For me the hardest thing about that Wyllis/Hodor reveal is that he lived his whole life from that point on knowing how he was going to die.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Sansa / Jon: "Jon is every bit Ned's Stark's son as Ramsey is Roose Bolton's." Not, "every bit as much as Rob, Bran and Rickon," and not "every bit as much as I and Arya are Ned's daughters." And that is why I will never, ever, be a Jonsa shipper. She does not view him as her equal. Period. Her attitude may change with the whole R + L business, and that's just as much reason why Jon deserves so much better than what she offers him as a mate.

I thought she was just saying that the Northerners would follow Jon like they follow Ramsey because Jon is Ned's son like Ramsey is Roose's son. 

[Skeeter22]

I don't blame Sansa for not wanting to put all her eggs in Jon's, or Littlefinger's, basket. Every single person who was supposed to protect her has failed in one way or another. She just escaped her sadistic, rapist husband. Sansa having trust issues shouldn't be framed as a character flaw. 

[Meredith Quill]

That play....Arya played herself in it. Think about it.

:/

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Then, as I think was actually stated by him in an earlier season (or maybe in the books), he'll sit back, wait to see which way the battle is going, "join the fray" on the winning side and come across like a white knight in shining armor.

On Bran, my question is why the 3ER showed him that particular day at Winterfell.  Was there any significance to seeing his grandfather sending his father off to ward in the Vale?  I don't think so.  Was it to give Bran the idea to warg into Hodor?  He'd already done that, and the 3ER could've gotten Bran to do that simply by telling him to while they were under the Tree.  Was it just to make Bran feel like shit for the rest of his life for what he did to Wyllis?  

If 3ER was rushing to show Bran stuff before the Night's King broke in, then we must conclude that everything 3ER showed Bran was absolutely essential.  

I'm guessing that Bran's ability to paralyze or incapacitate someone through his warging is what the 3ER was showing Bran.  The question is whether he was showing it as a warning so it doesn't happen again, or as knowledge of how it can be used offensively so it does happen.  I'm betting on the latter.

 

I think it might be a combo. Maybe when the Night King is defeated or, what it looks like, is put out of his misery and if Bran makes it, he will hang up his magic ability and be a castle raiser or something. I think because of Bran's massive fuck up that he knew Bran would always make, he wanted Bran to take a way a hard, hard lesson that will haunt him to the rest of his days and force him not to be so reckless with other people's lives and sacrifices. Frankly, as far as fantasy goes, it was a weird magic rule that the only thing that has been able to see and touch him in a vision besides the Three Eyed Raven was the Night King. The Gods of the Forest are kind of jerks.

[nachomama]

My face is leaking! HODOR! I was watching at work. *shush* and I'm all weepy when Jorah is leaving. 

 

There better be some sweet sweet Tormienne throw down soon. 

[stillshimpy]

Personally I'm not too keen on the whole free will vs predestination argument but to the person bringing up knowledge not being the same thing as the eradication of free will: that is true, but I think people are referring to Bloodraven or Leaf not doing anything to prevent the things they seemed to know had yet to happen, why not tell Bran "so it is super important not to Warg people or try to interact with them in Vision land" and not changing the course of things they seemed to know we're going to happen. Leaf telling Meera Bran would not always be in the cave and talking her out of leaving suggests foreknowledge by at least Leaf and likely BR who knew to watch Bran his whole life. 

But failing to act to change anything doesn't negate the concept of free will for the participants. Bran et al freely choose the things that happen in the loop, but Leaf and BR must know how things should or need to play out because Leaf did seek to influence Meera. Bloodraven has been influencing Bran for the entire story also. I don't personally understand why they needed Bran, but BR basically sent for Bran. Leaf intervened to detain Meera. Their choices are being influenced, not entire freely made.

[Wulfsige]

I’m confused as to Littlefinger’s scheming.

If he knew Ramsey was evil-awful-bad-no good (which I believe he did*) then what was the plan? Knock on the Bolton door and ask for Sansa back? And whichever Lord Bolton answered would say, “yeah, you and what army?”, and Littlefinger would say, “yeah, the one behind me”, and Lord Bolton would say, “yeah, well, mine’s bigger...hey, by the way, didn’t you give her to us in the first place?...I’m just asking because this isn’t making sense to me...”, then there’d be a humungous war and if LF did win - no guarantee - and rescue her Sansa would react pretty much as she did, which boils down to not falling into his arms with gratitude. 

(*I loved her for calling BS when it looked like he was going to say he couldn’t imagine what Ramsey had done to her by pointing out that as a brothel owner he would know about depravity.)

If he genuinely thought Ramsey was probably normal-decent but planned to ‘rescue’ Sansa anyway wasn’t he running the risk that Sansa could say, ”eh, life’s not so bad, Roose will die, or so I hope, sooner than later, I’m kinda growing fond of the hubby, got a bun in the oven, and we’re planning on ruling the North and providing a little peace and security for its inhabitants.” Then what? He can hardly march in, slaughter the hubby and a few thousand locals, and expect her to be grateful.

Or, it could be as it seemed to be presented initially to Sansa. Ramsey could be so-so okay-ish but nonetheless Sansa will never have any affection for him and she wants all Boltons dead. So LF shows up with his army, kills lots of people, and she’s grateful and marries him and together they take over the world. But then why did he marry her to Ramsey in the first place? They could just have gathered the Vale army and rode up to Winterfell in full battle mode without her having to marry into an enemy family.

The tragedy of Hodor wasn’t that he gave the last minutes of his life to Bran, it was that he gave decades.  

Loved Thormund trying to be Thormund the Slick. Also loved that the Greyjoys the Younger escaped. Expected some more dungeons and torture, and was happy somebody was one step (or many steps, if Euron is going to start planting trees for timber to built ships) ahead for a change.

Loved the chintzy but gory special effects of Robert’s bowels. Apparently I like my humour medieval. 

Can’t wait to see Euron the Drowned Rat slosh up to Dany the Mother of All Dragons and offer to show her his dick. Yeah, that’ll go well.

[mrspidey]

Seriously guys...Jorah will get cured by having a red priest do to his arm what Moqorro does to Victarion's arm in the books. This would make Jorah the hand of fire, both literally and figuratively. 

What do you think?

Edited May 23, 2016 by mrspidey

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Wulfsige said:

If he knew Ramsey was evil-awful-bad-no good (which I believe he did*) then what was the plan?

According to the writers and the actor, he genuinely didn't know.

His plan is still really stupid, mind you.

[Alapaki]

It probably means nothing other than a coincidence, but the only two remaining Direwolves belong to the only two children whom the books (in Book 1) make a point of stating looked like Starks rather than Tullys.  

I'm not suggesting that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are not Starks, at least not in show-world because I don't think there's anyway they're springing that twist this late in the game.  

But I have to believe there is some relevance to the survival (thus far) of the two Stark offspring who were always noted to have a special bond and look especially like Ned.  I'm curious where the show writers and where GRRM go with that.  The Direwolves have been so integral to the story that I doubt D&D would stray too far from whatever GRRM has in mind for them.

[SeanC]

Just now, Alapaki said:

The Direwolves have been so integral to the story that I doubt D&D would stray too far from whatever GRRM has in mind for them.

Integral to the books.  In the show they're clearly nuisances to the production.

[stillshimpy]

Also, they'll stray pretty far, it seems. Dorne. Faegon. Most of the North Remebers plot. 

I think the direwolves have been sacrificed to the production accountant more than anything. 

[Bill1978]

Do we know the name that Varys heard in the flame? Or is that another mystery that needs to be solved and when it is will mean Varys dies?

I know that all I've been mentioning to my friends is what went down Beyond The Wall, but I must say this is the first time in a long time that I actually enjoyed part of Arya's plot. The play was brilliant and I want to se more of the production.

And for the first time I actually felt emotion with an aspect of Dany's plot.

Are the Children of the Forest now extinct?

[kieyra]

At this point I just wish the damned dogs had never been introduced to the storyline. It makes me unpleasantly anxious whenever one is on screen, and then angry at the show when they kill them off. It may be irrational on many levels, but none of it is enjoyable viewing. It's like these books and the show are the biggest internet troll in the world, and we all just keep going along with it, hoping that eventually someone gets to have one good hour. One good minute, even. 

[Argenta]

4 hours ago, Fishslap said:

 My point was that human characters on the show can be flayed and have their privates cut off and it's all fun and entertainment, and then when a wolf that has had no lines so far dies fighting zombies people get upset. I just don't understand it.

I doubt many viewers find the flaying and genital mutilation fun or 'entertaining' as such.

But taking Theon as an example of someone this has happened to: the direwolves are beautiful, loyal creatures who will sacrifice themselves to protect the Stark family. In short, they're everything the treacherous and selfish Theon is not. He has started to redeem himself now with his newfound humility and support of Yara, but traditionally the wolves have been the more likeable and sympathetic characters, in themselves and in what they mean to the Stark children. 

As for the wolves having no lines - obviously not, since they're animals.

[Macbeth]

21 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

So if Bran ever ends up going through the gate in the Wall, will the Night's King's mark on him somehow screw up the presumed magic in the Wall that's holding back the Others?

After Hardhome - you know they don't travel by water.  They have been trapped behind the Wall.  It wasn't just the cost of CGI and getting people in place.

Our new Lord Commander Edd is going to die.  Well shit.  The Knight's Watch is under a 100.  They are all red shirts now.

That explains why they are moving Jon and the Wilding's story south. 

Explains why you know Bran and Meera make it to  the Wall alive.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

According to the writers and the actor, he genuinely didn't know.

Where did they say that? That's mindbogglingly sloppy of them.

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Integral to the books.  In the show they're clearly nuisances to the production.

 

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

Also, they'll stray pretty far, it seems. Dorne. Faegon. Most of the North Remebers plot. 

I think the direwolves have been sacrificed to the production accountant more than anything. 

I don't doubt that the show will not give us the same breadth of story for the wolves.  But I think/hope there are certain things that GRRM made non-negotiable and other things that he gave the show more leeway with.  I'd think that the wolves would be the former.  But I agree the wolves will continue to be more compelling on the page than on the screen.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

Where did they say that? That's mindbogglingly sloppy of them.

Bryan Cogman said it in the first interview he did with Entertainment Weekly after Sansa was raped, and they've reiterated it at many points since.

Just now, Alapaki said:

I don't doubt that the show will not give us the same breadth of story for the wolves.  But I think/hope there are certain things that GRRM made non-negotiable and other things that he gave the show more leeway with.  I'd think that the wolves would be the former.  But I agree the wolves will continue to be more compelling on the page than on the screen.

GRRM doesn't have any creative control over the show.  He's said that many times.

[benteen]

32 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

After Hardhome - you know they don't travel by water.  They have been trapped behind the Wall.  It wasn't just the cost of CGI and getting people in place.

Our new Lord Commander Edd is going to die.  Well shit.  The Knight's Watch is under a 100.  They are all red shirts now.

That explains why they are moving Jon and the Wilding's story south. 

Explains why you know Bran and Meera make it to  the Wall alive.

It's even lower.  The Night's Watch barely stands at 40 men.

[Raachel2008]

Quote

It probably means nothing other than a coincidence, but the only two remaining Direwolves belong to the only two children whom the books (in Book 1) make a point of stating looked like Starks rather than Tullys. I'm not suggesting that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are not Starks, at least not in show-world because I don't think there's anyway they're springingthat twist this late in the game. But I have to believe there is some relevance to the survival (thus far) of the two Stark offspring who were always noted to have a special bond and look especially like Ned.

Except that they don't look like Ned in the show, and that is what counts here, right? Arya/Maisie and Jon/Kit could easily pass as Robert's children, based solely on how they look on *tv*.

Personally I don't see that much in the direwolves dying; don't get me wrong I hate that they were killed, but I've always felt that the real wolves were the Stark kids. And they served plots: Lady being killed was the first time we saw who Jofrrey really was, Summer died deffending Bran and I assume the same happend to Greywind/Robb and Shaggydog/Rickon. I'm going out of a limbo and predict Nymeria will show up from nowhere and save Arya's life when we less expect and that Ghost will die once it is stablished Jon is a Targaryen - and not only by one of Bran's flashbacks. 

Quote

Explains why you know Bran and Meera make it to  the Wall alive.

There is now way Bran and Meera can make it to the Wall alive without help. Bran is heavy, even if warging Meera there is no way she can carry him all that way. Since I don't think there is a surviving Children of the Forest or a couple of nice wildlings  eager to help a crippled boy and a tiny girl out there, I'm putting my money on uncle Benjen coming out from whoever he has been all this time and saving the day. And that, I shall say, would make me extremely happy, specially after poor Hodor.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Addlepated]

I had to rewind that moment where Dany told Jorah to find himself a cure.  As she talks, the camera is focused on him.  When he realizes what she's saying, he slowly straightens himself up and loses the whipped dog expression from his face.  He has found a reason to live again.  His khaleesi gave it to him.  It's such a beautiful, subtle moment.

[CofCinci]

3 minutes ago, Addlepated said:

I had to rewind that moment where Dany told Jorah to find himself a cure.  As she talks, the camera is focused on him.  When he realizes what she's saying, he slowly straightens himself up and loses the whipped dog expression from his face.  He has found a reason to live again.  His khaleesi gave it to him.  It's such a beautiful, subtle moment.

Yes, and I believe he'll find the cure. Not for himself - but because his queen asked for it. 

[Fishslap]

1 hour ago, Argenta said:

I doubt many viewers find the flaying and genital mutilation fun or 'entertaining' as such.

But taking Theon as an example of someone this has happened to: the direwolves are beautiful, loyal creatures who will sacrifice themselves to protect the Stark family. In short, they're everything the treacherous and selfish Theon is not. He has started to redeem himself now with his newfound humility and support of Yara, but traditionally the wolves have been the more likeable and sympathetic characters, in themselves and in what they mean to the Stark children. 

As for the wolves having no lines - obviously not, since they're animals.

I don't think it changes the curious fact that a lot of people seem more upset over animals dying than people. I don't think the DWs are any more beautiful than any other animals, or people for that matter. And they are not meaningful characters on the TV show was my point with saying that they have no lines. They're like amateur Tolkien eagles, occasionally swooping in to rescue some hopeless situation, but otherwise not contributing anything of note to the story. Apart from symbolism that is, which is why they are dying in the first place. Personally I barely notice them, except when I come here and then remember that there were dogs on the show I just watched because people are so upset that one of them died again.

[Pachengala]

10 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

I don't think it changes the curious fact that a lot of people seem more upset over animals dying than people.

Yep, me, right here. Definitely more upset about the direwolves dying than [most of] the people. I think animals are "better" than most people in general, and specifically in GoT. It doesn't seem particularly curious to me, but clearly mileage varies.

I hated the Varys scene. His behavior was so egregiously clumsy and OOC that it drove home for me how unmoored the show is without GRRM's guiding hand. I'm sort of hate-watching at this point to see how it ends--why can't I quit you, show??

[MarySNJ]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Do you think this is what Euron has in mind, to offer Dany the horn?  I thought he wanted to gain control for himself by ordering Vic or some other Ironborn to blow the horn.  (Not sure how that would work, but I don't see him handing control over to Dany.). I do agree that tossing this plotline from the show over simplifies his motives/actions. 

Oh gods. Personally, I hope there's no damn horn. TV-Euron is at least bit more realistic than the cartoon pirate of the books (I'm NOT a fan of the Iron Born characters or culture). If he is going to offer a fleet in return for marriage to the Queen, then he gets the dragons as a dowry, or may think he does anyway.  I don't want the damn pirate to 'pay the iron price' for the dragons. Dragons are not slaves. Let's keep it that way. 

Maybe I'll get lucky and Euron will get the Quentyn Martell arc.

[gwhh]

Should have killed little finger when you had the chance. 

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Personally I'm not too keen on the whole free will vs predestination argument but to the person bringing up knowledge not being the same thing as the eradication of free will: that is true, but I think people are referring to Bloodraven or Leaf not doing anything to prevent the things they seemed to know had yet to happen, why not tell Bran "so it is super important not to Warg people or try to interact with them in Vision land" and not changing the course of things they seemed to know we're going to happen. Leaf telling Meera Bran would not always be in the cave and talking her out of leaving suggests foreknowledge by at least Leaf and likely BR who knew to watch Bran his whole life. 

But failing to act to change anything doesn't negate the concept of free will for the participants. Bran et al freely choose the things that happen in the loop, but Leaf and BR must know how things should or need to play out because Leaf did seek to influence Meera. Bloodraven has been influencing Bran for the entire story also. I don't personally understand why they needed Bran, but BR basically sent for Bran. Leaf intervened to detain Meera. Their choices are being influenced, not entire freely made.

I guess I fall more on the predestination side of the debate but in any case, Bran got a very painful lesson about what happens by "meddling" with events past, present and future.  He was being a bored, selfish teenager and cost the life of at least three people, including Hodor who was close to him, and Summer. I'm sure that's a lot of guilt to bear, and hopefully will cause him to be careful before interacting during his visions in the future. I would guess the Bloodraven had learned that lesson and that's why he and Leaf didn't do anything to change what they knew would happen.