S06.E05: The Door

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I do worry that she suffers the same Highborn disease Ned, Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna Tyrion, Tywin and Margaery all suffer from, they seem to think they can outfox LF.   Confidant in their own superiority as it were.   That is simply not the case.   Sansa may have a slight advantage because she appeals to him in ways the former mentioned cannot BUT she's handicapped by a lack of practical experience.

Sansa does have one other advantage over those others in dealing with Littlefinger though. It was on display last night. She has an utterly loyal servant who will cut Littlefinger in two if she asked her to without a second thought.

I'm pretty sure Jon would do the same for that matter.

The thing about Littlefinger is he still has the same vulnerability Cersei displayed early on... he puts too much faith in his charm and knowledge to give him power. But its not power in and of itself. Take away his influence over Robyn and Royce could have dispatched him easily. Put him in a situation where he's not got dozens of guards at his beck and call and Brienne could have cut him down.

He trusted his ability to manipulate Robyn in one case and appeal to Sansa's mercy in the other. But one miscalculation and he doesn't actually have the power to stop the executioner's blade. I'm expecting something to happen later this season that will push Sansa into not being so merciful with those she views as enemies and that will be Littlefinger's undoing.

[gwhh]

I bet Uncle Greyjoy that just took over the salt throne on the iron islands.  Was the one who burned the ships in slavers bay.  Either on his own or along with the sons of harpies.

 

Why are those iron born?  So nuts!  Is there too much lead in the water!  None of them are playing with a full deck!  Is it lack of oxygen from almost self drowning themselves all the times?   

Edited May 25, 2016 by gwhh

[Fishslap]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

Except in this case, apparently not. The writers and actor who portray him have apparently said that he had no knowledge of how Ramsey is, and therefore no complex or subtle plan involving using his cruelty to mold Sansa one way or the other. Of all the interesting possibilities the posters here have come up with to fanwank it, the show went with the least thoughtful (or plausible). It doesn't inspire much confidence in their handle on characterization.

So the same people who said when asked last year that Jon Snow was not going to be resurrected told you so and you believe it? They are not going to spill the beans on upcoming episodes and plot developments now either, and we therefore have to rely on the large, glandular organ between our ears.

[SeanC]

53 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

So the same people who said when asked last year that Jon Snow was not going to be resurrected told you so and you believe it? They are not going to spill the beans on upcoming episodes and plot developments now either, and we therefore have to rely on the large, glandular organ between our ears.

But the thing is, there's no way to reveal whether Littlefinger knew or not, unless he himself admitted it, which he wouldn't.  It's not at all like Jon's resurrection in that regard.

[Eyes High]

I didn't mention it before, but Ellie Kendrick was so, so good in this episode. Her panic and terror were visceral. I'm glad Meera survived the episode.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I'm afraid the answer to that might well turn out to be no, she's Littlefinger's pawn and looks too stupid to live because she is getting shoved back into that role since the shock was the sole purpose of the rape and it won't be allowed to affect her characterization or plot if those still require her to work with Littlefinger

I fear the same...that the showrunners will write her as being suddenly obedient putty in LF's hands again - not because they've carefully laid the groundwork so that her behaving that way seems plausible, but simply because their plot that week demands she act that way regardless of whether it makes any sense.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Sansa does have one other advantage over those others in dealing with Littlefinger though. It was on display last night. She has an utterly loyal servant who will cut Littlefinger in two if she asked her to without a second thought.

I'm pretty sure Jon would do the same for that matter.

The thing about Littlefinger is he still has the same vulnerability Cersei displayed early on... he puts too much faith in his charm and knowledge to give him power. But its not power in and of itself. Take away his influence over Robyn and Royce could have dispatched him easily. Put him in a situation where he's not got dozens of guards at his beck and call and Brienne could have cut him down.

He trusted his ability to manipulate Robyn in one case and appeal to Sansa's mercy in the other. But one miscalculation and he doesn't actually have the power to stop the executioner's blade. I'm expecting something to happen later this season that will push Sansa into not being so merciful with those she views as enemies and that will be Littlefinger's undoing.

Well as a Sansa fan, I like to think so, but she just did what her Father and Bran did; she sent her protector or guards away; on a rumor.

As far as Jon, he still has issues, he's been where only one other person has been and it still haunts him; I admit I want Sansa to be super badass, but like her siblings they're all kids, and being trained by dubious adults, hers is beyound dubious he is evil.

I think she'll take him down but since they

 

did away with the hairnet

, and she doesn't have the necklace with her either it will most likely be a different way; her "NEEDLE" is still in Winterfell .

Or it could be  Baleish's words coming back to haunt him: pieces not moving to plan or one of my favorites: "You have your mother's eyes. Honest eyes, and innocent. Blue as a sunlit sea. When you are a little older, many a man will drown in those eyes."

Edited May 25, 2016 by GrailKing

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Fishslap said:

So the same people who said when asked last year that Jon Snow was not going to be resurrected told you so and you believe it? They are not going to spill the beans on upcoming episodes and plot developments now either, and we therefore have to rely on the large, glandular organ between our ears.

I don't think those are really comparable situations-one is meant to be a shocking plot reveal, one is merely clarifying a character's context and knowledge. They've said this consistently since last year, and if they were going to reveal something different, the scene with Sansa would have been the place to do it. I'm sure that in the books, his motives will be coherent and go much deeper. My point is that on the show, they often take shortcuts to get the plot to work, and coherent characterization is lost as a result.

Edited May 25, 2016 by stagmania

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I didn't mention it before, but Ellie Kendrick was so, so good in this episode. Her panic and terror were visceral. I'm glad Meera survived the episode.

Meera has been a standout for me in her appearances this season.  In Seasons 3-4 I didn't think much of her either way, by comparison.

[VCRTracking]

Yeah she was really great. I didn't like Meera at first especially interacting with Osha, but after all the shit they've been through, especially after her brother died, she's been no-nonsense.

I always like watching Game of Thrones reaction videos and it's been great with the latest episode seeing when people realize that "Hold the door" = "Hodor". When they're watching and it suddenly clicks for them.

[Harald Hardrada]

3 hours ago, gwhh said:

I bet Uncle Greyjoy that just took over the salt throne on the iron islands.  Was the one who burned the ships in slavers bay.  Either on his own or along with the sons of harpies.

 

Why are those iron born?  So nuts!  Is there too much lead in the water!  None of them are playing with a full deck!  Is it lack of oxygen from almost self drowning themselves all the times?   

Well they are the Westerosi "Vikings". They are not Andals (Southerner) or First Men (Northmen) politically, they are not like the Andals and First Men culturally, and they obviously does not like the Mainlanders or any foreigners who are not like them. So much of being hard-ass seafaring warriors, they think and act like typical unexperienced pirates. The only difference between Ironborn and real-life Vikings is that they always underestimate their enemy's strength while the Vikings always learn their enemy 's tricks and how to overcome those with an even better tricks.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Harald Hardrada

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I didn't mention it before, but Ellie Kendrick was so, so good in this episode. Her panic and terror were visceral. I'm glad Meera survived the episode.

Yeah, she's really great.  And she needs to live for my hopes of a Reed/Stark unity through marriage to happen.

 

Also, how is littlefinger teleporting around westeros?  Answer revealed!  He has future tech!

 

[GrailKing]

Now we know! LOL

Edited May 25, 2016 by GrailKing

[Raachel2008]

Maybe the twist there is that Littlefinger had a deal with Ramsay -  marry Sansa, she is recognized as the Lady of Winterfell and safe from the Lannisters, and Ramsay can be the King of the North, except Ramsay was not supposed to touch Sansa or at least not touch her the way he did. But Ramsay being the psycko he is just said fuck you did what he wanted.

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Well they are the Westerosi "Vikings". They are not Andals (Southerner) or First Men (Northmen) politically, they are not like the Andals and First Men culturally, and they obviously does not like the Mainlanders or any foreigners who are not like them. So much of being hard-ass seafaring warriors, they think and act like typical unexperienced pirates. The only difference between Ironborn and real-life Vikings is that they always underestimate their enemy's strength while the Vikings always learn their enemy 's tricks and how to overcome those with an even better tricks.

Right. More like a provincial tribe living off the coast of Scotland and thinking they're badass.

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Dumbest move ever Tyrion.  The High Sparrow is a fanatic, but he isn't burning the poor.  She threatened Varys -Tyrion.  The man who got you out of KL after you killed your father.  Remember him.  Basically she said hopefully he would prove worthy of Dany because  otherwise....

And Dany will not be pleased with any competition.  No one gets to burn or kill her subjects but her.

This is how the show works, unfortunately. All the characters are dumbed down because there isn't room to introduce the complexity of the books. In Essos, we (book readers) have already seen the High Priest inciting the masses and rallying them to Dany. We have seen Moqorro interacting with Tyrion and heading towards Mereen. If these things are relevant, they have to be introduced, but Tyrion's journey was cut way down so ... we get this. The only clever thing is that it parallels Cersei's move in arming the faith, but other than that - sadly it's just a case of something needing to happen so insert some awkward motivation to get it to happen.

And honestly, it's hard to fault the show for not being as good as the books. Different mediums and different production realities and they shine in different ways. This is one of those things that I gloss over in order to enjoy the show. It's not the smartest move Tyrion makes, but it's not horribly out of character and it needs to happen so ... ok show, I'll run with it.

[Hecate7]

On 5/24/2016 at 6:31 AM, Misplaced said:

But these guys also said Jon was dead, dead, deadity dead never come back dead, which clearly wasn't true...by saying "yeah, Littlefinger had no idea," Cogman shuts down the conversation.  If he said "yup, that Littlefinger, he knew Ramsay was a total bastid," he gets a thousand follow-up questions about LIttlefinger's long-term game plan.  And not incidentally sets everyone else's brain gears grinding away at plot developments.   

My own internal monologue says Littlefinger knew exactly what he was doing -- either Sansa dies, and as her uncle with the support of Robyn-her-cousin he rallies the North against the Boltons, or she's horribly abused (well I guess that part worked) and he sweeps in as her uncle with the support of her cousin to rescue her with the Vale army, rallying the North, and then probably marries her (or marries her off to Robyn and bumps off Robyn).  Either way he has the North and the Vale, and marches on King's Landing.    

 

This! Definitely this! Our show runners are lying because they don't want to give away LF's plan, which definitely exists. We saw by his treatment of Lord Royce that he did NOT expect to see Sansa again, because she'd have blown his story out of the water. He felt safe lying, which means he expected Lord Royce and Sansa's paths never to cross again. And then he laid it on thick about being so happy to see her "unharmed," ie, alive.

Littlefinger owns brothels. He's hung out there. He knows there are quite a lot of different kinds of clients, and knows how to recognize them walking in the door. He has sold women to be mutilated, murdered, or possibly even eaten. ("Transform this beautiful, sad girl and use her in ways most men would not think of...and you know what most men think of"). Probably most, if not all of his clients are highborn like Ser Meryn Trant, King Robert Baratheon, King Joffrey Baratheon, Tyrion Lannister, Lord Oberyn Martell...he has no illusions about noblemen treating whores one way and wives another. People are what they are. He may not have known Ramsey but he knew Roose, and he has a brothel-keeper's honed instincts of character judgement. Sansa nailed it. If he didn't know, he's a fool, and if he did know, he's her enemy.

He. Is. Her. Enemy.

He always was. He was being fostered at Riverrun, just as the Starks were being fostered at the Vale. He was a minor noble but important enough to rate Hoster Tully as foster father. Yet even though he was good enough to be Lord Tully's fosterling, he wasn't good enough to marry either of the Tully daughters. He convinced us, and Sansa, that he's in love with or at least hung up on Sansa because he's only ever loved one woman in his life, "only Cat," whom we're told Sansa resembles. But that was all done for Sansa's benefit, to make her trust him and do his bidding. He convinced Lyssa Arryn he was in love with her, too. Speaking of the way highborn men treat wives...and he killed her. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if his plan for Sansa ultimately involved her disappearance. Brandon gave him the scar, but then Ned married Cat. Even with Brandon dead, Baelish couldn't get Cat, and he's been out for revenge pretty much ever since. He is the Anti-Snape--he's not helping Cat/Lily's child survive out of love. He's acting out of revenge, and his ultimate plan for Sansa is going to be very ugly, I think. I'm sure he's secretly thrilled that he married Ned Stark's beautiful virgin daughter to the worst sadist in the Seven Kingdoms and that even though she escaped, she is marked by the experience. If Sansa trusts him again, I will retch. But it's Baelish. Cat trusted him. Ned trusted him. So I'm sure Sansa will go right on trusting him until he delivers her into an even darker horror.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I'm trying to pinpoint why I was a little bothered by Sansa in the scene where they're talking about how they need more men. I didn't have a huge issue with her lying to Jon and understand her reasons even though I found her choice to be disappointing. I couldn't help but get a Dany vibe from her when it comes to the arrogance she has when it comes to her family name. 

I think it was the way she addressed Davos as though he doesn't know what he's talking about when he brings up the legitimate grievance that House Karstark has with House Stark. Sansa understandably hates the Lannisters for what they did to her father, Lady, and herself. She seems fairly dismissive though about why the Karstarks might not exactly be over this and I would think some part of her would feel compassion for the fact that House Karstark lost the head of their family after loyally fighting by Robb's side. Her response is that northerners are more loyal (presumably more loyal than Southron people although I don't see where the proof is in that when there are a bunch of Southron characters who are loyal) and that they don't trust outsiders and to me the indication is that this makes northerners somehow better than other people.

It isn't that I disagree with the idea that the North Remembers. Obviously they do. My issue is that there little discussion on the show in comparison with the books as to why this loyalty exists in the first place. 

Rather than assuming that northerners will be loyal simply because of the Stark name (the books and show both prove that loyalty from all northern houses isn't exactly a guarantee) I wish she'd gotten into a few basic reasons of why people would be loyal and why people will want to go back to supporting the Starks. Mention how Ned told her about how House Stark has assisted the people of the North for thousands of years and protected them during winter including the winter that happened before (?) Bran was born. Mention the blood ties House Stark has with other northern houses. Mention that Ramsay isn't the leader that people will want to have once winter finally comes and that he's already offended other houses even before his takeover of Winterfell. The Hornwood situation comes to mind. (I know it didn't happen on the show but maybe it could have been mentioned briefly.) I'm not saying she should have mentioned every little thing, just something to indicate that it isn't just about the Stark name and getting revenge. 

Not only is Winterfell their rightful home but pretty much everyone in the North will suffer with Ramsay as the Warden of the North. It isn't just about them, it's about everyone in the North and I wish there'd been more of an indication of that.

I did like her comment about how the Umbers can hang though. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Ambrosefolly]

On May 23, 2016 at 1:02 PM, kittykat said:

It's sort of similar to Cersei putting the Faith Militant in power to dispatch her enemies only to have them grow more powerful and turn on her.

To Cersei credit, the WW are far more powerful and to the CoF's credit, they were fighting for their very existences while Cersei gave the the FM's power because Tommen's wife no longer had to put up with her BS anymore.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

We saw by his treatment of Lord Royce that he did NOT expect to see Sansa again, because she'd have blown his story out of the water.

No, he was expecting her to go along with his story, since they were working together.

At that point Sansa's escape was already known to him, so he had no reason to expect not to see her again (indeed, the next thing he did was to go to the Wall).

Edited May 25, 2016 by SeanC

[screamin]

Or he was expecting to off Lord Royce sooner or later.

[Arnella]

Except for Dany's fire goddess moment, I've been just waiting for things to MOVE ALONG. Ok, moved along a little...

Fuck Bran.  Whatever great things he is supposedly preparing for,they aren't worth Hodor and the last direwolf and Summer or even the tree guy.  He can NEVER makeup for Hodor's life of brain damage. Fuck him - save yourself Meera.

Ser Davo is the best Hand ever!  Listen to him!

It seems like Faceless Men aren't what the Dancing Master and the old Jagen Hagar made it seem like.  Where is the honor?  I hope that this is all just an elaborate (and UNNECESSARY) lesson for Arya.

I am never a shipper but I am shipping Brienne and Tormond so hard.  You have to appreciate a guy who recognizes when a goddess rides in.

[Shimmergloom]

Sansa understandably hates the Lannisters for what they did to her father, Lady, and herself. She seems fairly dismissive about why they might not exactly be over this and I would think some part of her would feel compassion for the fact that House Karstark lost the head of their family after loyally fighting by Robb's side. OSansa understandably hates the Lannisters for what they did to her father, Lady, and herself. She seems fairly dismissive about why they might not exactly be over this and I would think some part of her would feel compassion for the fact that House Karstark lost the head of their family after loyally fighting by Robb's side.

i think she is dismissive because she has to realize that by them killing the Lannister cousins the karstarks doomed her to more torture from Joffrey, then near murder from Lyssa and finally torture and rape from Ramsay. I don't blame her for not being sympathetic.  Also if the karstarks were loyal, they would have not murdered children. She should listen to Davos of course and I love him being on the Starks side. 

[Ambrosefolly]

33 minutes ago, Arnella said:

Fuck Bran.  Whatever great things he is supposedly preparing for,they aren't worth Hodor and the last direwolf and Summer or even the tree guy.  He can NEVER makeup for Hodor's life of brain damage. Fuck him - save yourself Meera.

On May 24, 2016 at 9:58 AM, paramitch said:

This pretty much exactly states how I feel. Notice how we never see moments of happy direwolf communion? No scenes of life with a pet that adores you and is connected especially with you? I kind of always pictured the Direwolves as the Stark children's daemons, as per Philip Pullman, in other words, as something beyond pets, as beings that were there to love and be love, and that were connected to who they are. But that just makes the show's trajectory all the more tragic.

This revelation kind of makes me sick. I mean, since it's utterly tragic I'm sure it will happen, but the idea that Bran has anything to apologize for, ever, is ridiculous. Despite the pages upon pages of critiques of this poor kid's behavior, the fact is that he behaved without any evil intention. Ever. He climbed a tower -- as kids do. He took advantage of a chance to view his father (still alive, in the past). It doesn't make him culpable for anything at all. He did not act with malice. 

Why does Bran need redeeming? He has done absolutely nothing wrong in the history of this show except (perhaps) to warg into Hodor when he didn't always need to. But who could resist either scenario? Bran got to see his dad... and walk on two legs, tall and strong. I never want him to apologize for an instant. Nobody told him "Don't do this or Big Bad Things will happen." Nobody said, "Bran, if you go back, you could End the World." The three-eyed Raven was an idiot (or, as usual, acting within the confines of the plot to ensure that characters act as required for maximum drama and tragedy as they march us on toward the unending depressing ending of this show/books).

My sentiments (the last quoted) and beautifully put. The tree was under attack, there was a lot of confusion, Meera screamed out that Bran needed to warg into present day Hodor, and, oh yeah, The Three Eyed Raven told him to "listen to your friend(Meera)" while they were in the vision. Something got crossed and Bran accidentally warged into pre Hodor!Wylis. I resent the heck of 3ER for not being clearer about the rules of being a tree and even tried to convince Bran that he could not be heard when he was in a vision quest. Special shout out to the jerk Old Gods who couldn't let first solo vision be him hearing Hot Pie ramble on about making a steak and kidney pie or other boring shit, and instead he was lead to the last place he wanted to be and like any train wreck found it impossible to look away. Bran thought he was safe in that tree because they didn't tell him about the one thing that could break the magic.

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Shimmergloom said:

 

i think she is dismissive because she has to realize that by them killing the Lannister cousins the karstarks doomed her to more torture from Joffrey, then near murder from Lyssa and finally torture and rape from Ramsay. I don't blame her for not being sympathetic.  Also if the karstarks were loyal, they would have not murdered children. She should listen to Davos of course and I love him being on the Starks side. 

And if Cat hadn't set Jamie Lannister free, the Karstarks wouldn't have taken matters into their own hands, either. That's some shit the surving Starks will have to own.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Shimmergloom said:

 

i think she is dismissive because she has to realize that by them killing the Lannister cousins the karstarks doomed her to more torture from Joffrey, then near murder from Lyssa and finally torture and rape from Ramsay. I don't blame her for not being sympathetic.  Also if the karstarks were loyal, they would have not murdered children. She should listen to Davos of course and I love him being on the Starks side. 

I don't think she's given the impression that she had a huge issue with the Karstarks killing Lannister children in terms of the way it effected her personal circumstances. She seems to think that the Karstarks will go back to being loyal simply because they're northerners and most of the north has been loyal to House Stark for however many thousands of years.

If she'd said that Lord Karstark deserved his fate for what he did and that his family might be able to see that, I could maybe understand thinking that she partly blames House Karstark but she seems to think that their father being murdered by Robb isn't a big deal and I felt like Davos was making more sense during that moment of the conversation. 

To me it would have made more sense if she'd said something like how she understands that they grieve for Lord Karstark but they also remember the past help/loyalty from Ned or Ned's father and that blood ties would still likely mean something to them. Add in the fact that Ramsay won't be a good Warden of the North and that goes against everyone's interest, I can see how House Karstark could be persuaded to come over to their side.

[J----av]

11 hours ago, buttercupia said:

regarding the overall bleakness of the series, books and show alike, I agree it gets difficult to endure.  we need some joy. i know grrm's big thing is to subvert the fantasy genre but we already have something that subverts the fantasy genre-real life.  

 We have had lots of joy lately. When was the last time we lost a "good guy" that was a main character? Probably Jon, but he came right back and killed the people that stabbed him. I can't even imagining the show having the guts to pull another Red Wedding or Ned beheading anymore. All the sad deaths recently are with minor characters like Hodor

[Knuckles]

On a rewatch, I was struck that Sansa agreed to meet LF in Molestown, instead of insisting he make his way to Castle Black. It didn't hit me when I fist saw the episode, but why agree to a secret meeting in a shell of a hut in Molestown. She owes LF nothing...why not insist that having come all the way north, he show himself at Castle Black, if he wants to talk to her. She would have been standing on her own ground, figuratively speaking, and put LF at a serious disadvantage. Why go, why agree to his terms? If you have the upper hand, you don't take a meeting at an enemy's office..you make him come to you.

I know she is very young, but this struck me as particularly foolish. Especially as she did not know if he came alone...yes, she had Brienne with her, but he could have had a dozen Vale men with him.  Brienne herself should have advised against it.

[FozzyBear]

So watching the actor who plays Bran grow a foot between seasons is making me wonder, how much time has passed since the first episode? It it supposed to be about 1 year at this point? Do we have any kind of time marker to follow?

[Shimmergloom]

Quote

On a rewatch, I was struck that Sansa agreed to meet LF in Molestown, instead of insisting he make his way to Castle Black. It didn't hit me when I fist saw the episode, but why agree to a secret meeting in a shell of a hut in Molestown. She owes LF nothing...why not insist that having come all the way north, he show himself at Castle Black, if he wants to talk to her. She would have been standing on her own ground, figuratively speaking, and put LF at a serious disadvantage. Why go, why agree to his terms? If you have the upper hand, you don't take a meeting at an enemy's office..you make him come to you.

I know she is very young, but this struck me as particularly foolish. Especially as she did not know if he came alone...yes, she had Brienne with her, but he could have had a dozen Vale men with him.  Brienne herself should have advised against it.

I'm guessing the plot just wanted her meeting him there.  I guess we can fanwank that his note to her said he'd only meet her there and not at castle black and she agreed to it, because she wanted to confront him.

And in reality there's no way that Littlefinger can show up at Castle Black.  It's too public and there's no way he could keep sure that the knowledge that he was up there meeting Sansa didn't get back to Ramsay or Cersei or whoever, which ruins which ever plan he wants to go with at that moment.  So I guess we are just left to assume that he wasn't going to agree to meet her anywhere but Molestown.

[Bill1978]

3 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

So watching the actor who plays Bran grow a foot between seasons is making me wonder, how much time has passed since the first episode? It it supposed to be about 1 year at this point? Do we have any kind of time marker to follow?

I too would love an answer to this, cause I confess my brain is so use to TV shows having seasons that pretty much equal 1 year. So my brain is all well it's been 6 years since the start, but I know that isn't possible. I'm also convinced that each story we watch in an episode is linear with each other. I feel the first half of Bran's story of this season occurred BEFORE Jon kicked the bucket. In fact, perhaps everything we have seen of Bran has occurred before the current storyline of The North.

[Misplaced]

18 hours ago, stagmania said:

They've said this consistently since last year, and if they were going to reveal something different, the scene with Sansa would have been the place to do it.

Although this little bit of dialogue made me wonder and still makes me wonder: 

Sansa: What else?

LF: Did he cut you?

Sansa:  Maybe you did know about Ramsay all along.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, Knuckles said:

On a rewatch, I was struck that Sansa agreed to meet LF in Molestown, instead of insisting he make his way to Castle Black. It didn't hit me when I fist saw the episode, but why agree to a secret meeting in a shell of a hut in Molestown. She owes LF nothing...why not insist that having come all the way north, he show himself at Castle Black, if he wants to talk to her. She would have been standing on her own ground, figuratively speaking, and put LF at a serious disadvantage. Why go, why agree to his terms? If you have the upper hand, you don't take a meeting at an enemy's office..you make him come to you.

I know she is very young, but this struck me as particularly foolish. Especially as she did not know if he came alone...yes, she had Brienne with her, but he could have had a dozen Vale men with him.  Brienne herself should have advised against it.

This is a problem, because in the books by this time she's only 13 and you have Sophie at 20 acting for 15, so on screen it's coming off as a hard sell Sophie may not go but a 13 year old Sansa isn't thinking about power she's angry and wants to face him; which if we think about it is a power move for a survivor.

Though with someone like LF a dangerous one.

She's taking control ( or thinks she is ), but learning the ways of doing so is an elusive thing at the moment.

Edited May 26, 2016 by GrailKing

[Tikichick]

20 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Well as a Sansa fan, I like to think so, but she just did what her Father and Bran did; she sent her protector or guards away; on a rumor.

As far as Jon, he still has issues, he's been where only one other person has been and it still haunts him; I admit I want Sansa to be super badass, but like her siblings they're all kids, and being trained by dubious adults, hers is beyound dubious he is evil.

I think she'll take him down but since they

  Reveal hidden contents

did away with the hairnet

, and she doesn't have the necklace with her either it will most likely be a different way; her "NEEDLE" is still in Winterfell .

Or it could be  Baleish's words coming back to haunt him: pieces not moving to plan or one of my favorites: "You have your mother's eyes. Honest eyes, and innocent. Blue as a sunlit sea. When you are a little older, many a man will drown in those eyes."

Are you referring to Needle, Arya's sword?  That's in Braavos with Arya. 

Do you think Sansa has a figurative needle in Winterfell?  She's been at Winterfell with Ramsay and didn't seem ready to bring it out and use it.

[Matt K]

10 hours ago, Knuckles said:

On a rewatch, I was struck that Sansa agreed to meet LF in Molestown, instead of insisting he make his way to Castle Black. It didn't hit me when I fist saw the episode, but why agree to a secret meeting in a shell of a hut in Molestown. She owes LF nothing...why not insist that having come all the way north, he show himself at Castle Black, if he wants to talk to her. She would have been standing on her own ground, figuratively speaking, and put LF at a serious disadvantage. Why go, why agree to his terms? If you have the upper hand, you don't take a meeting at an enemy's office..you make him come to you.

I know she is very young, but this struck me as particularly foolish. Especially as she did not know if he came alone...yes, she had Brienne with her, but he could have had a dozen Vale men with him.  Brienne herself should have advised against it.

I assumed she was considering having him killed and wanted a remote place to do so.  Because if people found out, there might be some issues.

[Avaleigh]

10 hours ago, Knuckles said:

On a rewatch, I was struck that Sansa agreed to meet LF in Molestown, instead of insisting he make his way to Castle Black. It didn't hit me when I fist saw the episode, but why agree to a secret meeting in a shell of a hut in Molestown. She owes LF nothing...why not insist that having come all the way north, he show himself at Castle Black, if he wants to talk to her. She would have been standing on her own ground, figuratively speaking, and put LF at a serious disadvantage. Why go, why agree to his terms? If you have the upper hand, you don't take a meeting at an enemy's office..you make him come to you.

I know she is very young, but this struck me as particularly foolish. Especially as she did not know if he came alone...yes, she had Brienne with her, but he could have had a dozen Vale men with him.  Brienne herself should have advised against it.

Not only that but isn't it odd that Jon doesn't even seem to have made a trip into Mole's Town? What reason would she have to go there? If nothing else I'd think that he'd want her to be accompanied by more than Brienne just in case.

[SeanC]

That's one of those instances where the writers just wanted that scene, and don't want you to think about things like whether it makes sense for Sansa to agree to meet him there, how she got out of Castle Black without Jon knowing when opening the gate is a big production, etc.

[MissLucas]

44 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Not only that but isn't it odd that Jon doesn't even seem to have made a trip into Mole's Town? What reason would she have to go there? If nothing else I'd think that he'd want her to be accompanied by more than Brienne just in case.

Clearly her sewing kit got lost during her flight. Castle Black probably had some needles and thread rolls but those won't do if you're about to create fancy wolf embroidery. That would also explain the absence of any male company - like most men the guys of the Night Watch abhor shopping trips.

[Avaleigh]

3 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Clearly her sewing kit got lost during her flight. Castle Black probably had some needles and thread rolls but those won't do if you're about to create fancy wolf embroidery. That would also explain the absence of any male company - like most men the guys of the Night Watch abhor shopping trips.

She was already sewing before she went to Mole's Town though. I remember wondering how she was able to sew everything so quickly and where she got the materials. Those women who were living in Mole's Town prior to the wildling attack certainly weren't wearing anything pretty or colorful. It's hard for me to imagine that there was a shop with an assortment of fabrics. Not to mention I'm curious as to where Sansa got the money to pay for the fur and fabric.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Are you referring to Needle, Arya's sword?  That's in Braavos with Arya. 

Do you think Sansa has a figurative needle in Winterfell?  She's been at Winterfell with Ramsay and didn't seem ready to bring it out and use it.

No, Sansa's Raven dress her necklace with a long chain, the end is refereed to as Sansa's needle by the show designers.

Edited May 26, 2016 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

She was already sewing before she went to Mole's Town though. I remember wondering how she was able to sew everything so quickly and where she got the materials. Those women who were living in Mole's Town prior to the wildling attack certainly weren't wearing anything pretty or colorful. It's hard for me to imagine that there was a shop with an assortment of fabrics. Not to mention I'm curious as to where Sansa got the money to pay for the fur and fabric.

I would imagine like in Winterfell, any castle would have armorers, smithies and tanneries so to me it's not magical, they would have needles also for repairs of leather jerkins and such.

Not any where far fetch as Eurons 1000 ships on islands with no trees.

[Avaleigh]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I would imagine like in Winterfell, any castle would have armorers, smithies and tanneries so to me it's not magical, they would have needles also for repairs of leather jerkins and such.

Not any where far fetch as Eurons 1000 ships on islands with no trees.

That isn't hard for me to believe, it was mainly the colorful materials (and fur) that I questioned. It would have made more sense to me if she'd made a black dress and explained that she only had black to work with.

[Harald Hardrada]

21 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Yeah, she's really great.  And she needs to live for my hopes of a Reed/Stark unity through marriage to happen.

 

Also, how is littlefinger teleporting around westeros?  Answer revealed!  He has future tech!

 

Holy shit...  how did he get that device? there are no steampunk scholars in Essos and Westeros.

[Avaleigh]

17 hours ago, Arnella said:

I am never a shipper but I am shipping Brienne and Tormond so hard.  You have to appreciate a guy who recognizes when a goddess rides in.

It's ridiculous how much I need this to happen and Jaime/Brienne was something I really wanted to see happen in both the books and the show, but now I'm totally cool with her having a happily ever after with Tormund. The funny thing is they haven't even had a scene where they're just talking to each other and they're already a popular ship. 

I agree that he looked at her like she was a goddess, like she greatest thing he'd ever seen. Man, I want these two to exchange some dialogue. Tormund's goofy, hopeful and slightly deranged looking smile in this episode was too cute for words. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

That isn't hard for me to believe, it was mainly the colorful materials (and fur) that I questioned. It would have made more sense to me if she'd made a black dress and explained that she only had black to work with.

The recruits have their stuff in storage, Thornes fur weren't raggy, but I understand the visual of her's and Jons look like fresh; I'm just saying in my head ok, she made them clothes and not worrying about where they came from as that's not really important, it's the gesture .

[AuntieMame]

On 5/26/2016 at 1:58 AM, Shimmergloom said:

I'm guessing the plot just wanted her meeting him there.  I guess we can fanwank that his note to her said he'd only meet her there and not at castle black and she agreed to it, because she wanted to confront him.

And in reality there's no way that Littlefinger can show up at Castle Black.  It's too public and there's no way he could keep sure that the knowledge that he was up there meeting Sansa didn't get back to Ramsay or Cersei or whoever, which ruins which ever plan he wants to go with at that moment.  So I guess we are just left to assume that he wasn't going to agree to meet her anywhere but Molestown.

Sloppy writing here. Because the other posts are right. Sansa had the advantage and should have made Little finger meet her at Castle Black. Not to mention Sansa is probably scared of LF. She'd be a fool if she wasn't. He sold her to Ramsay. Whatever the why's and wherefores and what he knew or didn't know, he sold her to Ramsay. He murdered Lyssa in front of her. I'm not even going to try and summarise his lies and dealings to advance his agenda at the expense of others that Sansa has personal knowledge of. For all Sansa knew LF could have wanted to kidnap her in Mole town to return her to Ramsay. He married her to him after all. So, there isn't a et code to solve here. The writers need something "shocking" to happen down the road, so Sansa has to behave not just out of character but in an absolutely nonsensical way. And yes, traumatized people behave oddly, but Sansa isn't so far gone that she would risk anything that would put her back in Bolton hands. The whole scene makes no sense.

[mac123x]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:01 PM, Tikichick said:

I wish they'd figure out how to give us those moments to relax, de-stress and catch our breath by spending time in little moments of characters or scenes that would mean something to the audience, rather than gandering at wee warty willie or other cringeworthy middle school humor.

The really sad part is that they actually did give us one of those moments you describe, in this episode:  Tormund's nonverbal flirting with Brienne when they were getting ready to ride out, and her skeeved-out reaction to it were hysterical, and completely believable based on their previous characterizations and interactions.

[Macbeth]

I noticed this episode that the sigil next to Kristian Nairn's (Hodor) name was a bear's paw.  Does anyone knows whose sigil this is?

Since he was Old Nan's great grandson and she had served the Starks since anyone could remember, I thought it was strange that his sigil was not the  Stark's. And maybe it is telling.

Poor Tyrion gets no respect.  The golden haired Cersei and Joffrey, were seen as the heroes of the story while he was blamed for everything bad according to the play.   

[Umbelina]

35 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I noticed this episode that the sigil next to Kristian Nairn's (Hodor) name was a bear's paw.  Does anyone knows whose sigil this is?

Since he was Old Nan's great grandson and she had served the Starks since anyone could remember, I thought it was strange that his sigil was not the  Stark's. And maybe it is telling.

Poor Tyrion gets no respect.  The golden haired Cersei and Joffrey, were seen as the heroes of the story while he was blamed for everything bad according to the play.   

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Brune_of_Brownhollow

According to this it's House Brune, but I didn't see the Sigil.

[Oscirus]

Quote

 

I apologize I still need to rant about Tyrion.  I know the conversation is elsewhere, but I rewatched last night and I am still pissed.

Dumbest move ever Tyrion.  The High Sparrow is a fanatic, but he isn't burning the poor.  She threatened Varys -Tyrion.  The man who got you out of KL after you killed your father.  Remember him.  Basically she said hopefully he would prove worthy of Dany because  otherwise....

And Dany will not be pleased with any competition.  No one gets to burn or kill her subjects but her.

 

The red priestess isn't burning the poor either, she's a necessary voice to the poor. I fail to see how this is a dumb move when he didn't even have to give up anything for her assistance. 

Tyrion started this season with two goals in Mereen and he took care of three, hopefully Dany doesn't come back and undo all his work.

 

Late to the party but Littlefinger's plan was just to store Sansa at Winterfell just in case Cersei checked up on what he was saying. Whether or not Ramsay was a sadist was irrelevant.  The only thing in his plan that failed was the fact that she escaped. If she didn't then he be getting viewed as hero when he saved her as the Valed army would've likely took Winterfell and saved her.  As for getting chewed out at mole town, Littlefinger likely laughed it off as I'm willing to bet that he thinks that he can get her back under his thumb in the near future.

 

As for the Tormund-Brienne shipping, you guys know that Wildings tend to rape their women. Right? Just saying.