S06.E05: The Door

[jeansheridan]

Just now, Oscirus said:

I must say this story is coming down to the starks doing what they want. Except now it's dangerous since everybody else is paying the consequences.

1. We have Sansa in war council meetings interrupting when it's obvious she has no idea what the fuck she's talking about

2. We have Bran and his countless fuckups where everybody else but him has to pay for them.

3. There's Arya who insists upon joining an organization that she clearly shouldn't be joining for no other reason then it's cool. And you know what, she'll probably be able to escape later on because, why not?

Or maybe in a twist on the hero journey, Martin has decided to kill off the formerly little girl who is scrappy and cool.  Maybe by disobeying the Faceless God she dies.  I wouldn't mind that actually.  I like Maise, but I don't like Arya's assassin journey.  Of course maybe the whole point of her time there is to prove to her that she ISN'T a bad ass assassin type.  She has compassion and can think and realizes that the world is complicated.  The Hound just isn't a Mad Dog killer.  Her father isn't remembered with love and respect.  

Just now, Oscirus said:

I would include deserting Jon but at least his actions are productive.

[Advance35]

Quote

she knows he's simple minded and easily led, she spent enough time with him (at least if i not conflating too much book stuff with show stuff(

Also Sansa would do well to remember that although LF did murder Lysa Arryn, Sansa herself helped him cover it up even though the Lord's Declarant promised her their protection.  I wouldn't be surprised if LF let that little cat out of the bag if he were to go down.   Sansa and Littlefinger are a very tangled thread.

[Constantinople]

I blame the 3-Eyed Raven for not turning off the tree root before going to sleep. Duh!  Obviously grampy hasn't been around teenagers in a long time or he'd know you don't leave that unattended, particularly if the kid has already nagged you that he'll totes stop if he can just finish out the Tower of Joy round and then save the game at the next level.

There's no teenager I've ever known who could resist travelling through time and space just by touching a tree root.  I suspect many of the teen-aged selves of the posters shitting all over Bran couldn't have resisted the temptation either (not me, of course).

[dinkysquid]

Glad to see Sansa give Littlefinger good and proper shit. She trusted him (obviously big mistake) and he ended up delivering her on a platter to that sadistic psychopath.

I'm really sick of the whole Arya story line. It bores me and I feel it's using up way too much precious time. 

[Gertrude]

10 hours ago, Fishslap said:

I don't get why some people seem more upset by wolves dying than people on this show here. Weird stuff. Anyway, they are literary devices with no lines and I would not be the least bit surprised if Jon and Arya are the only ones left alive at the end of everything, now that their wolves are the only ones still alive.

This may have been addressed by now, but for me, it's not the wolves per se that I am upset about. From reading the books, we know that the wolves are not just pets but extensions of their counterparts. Ned even realizes that killing Lady was probably a huge mistake, moreso than just killing a beloved pet. When Shaggy died, I feared for Rickon in a way that was more visceral than just being in Ramsey's clutches. I was sad to see Summer go, but less so because now I just think D&D don't want to deal with the CGI for them. If this happens in the books, then I definitely fear for the long-term survival of those boys.

[Harald Hardrada]

This episode really is hard to watch, my condolences to Hodor/Wyllis. I wonder If that First Man who turned into the Night's King is the original Stark?

[morgankobi]

Is the actor in the pic above the same one who actually plays the Night King?

Were there many blonde Starks? (He seems pretty blonde to me.)

[Constantinople]

34 minutes ago, dinkysquid said:

Glad to see Sansa give Littlefinger good and proper shit.

Good to see Sansa give Littlefinger the middle finger.

[stillshimpy]

The only redeeming thing about the Iron Islanders story is that it gives Alsie Allen something other to do than Renfield up Winterfell, in service of Ramsay. When Euron talked about cutting down every tree,etc. I did find that amusing. I'm sure the show will have a fleet of ships appear by the end of the season, but between the "uh...do you see any trees ?" and the notion that he would have even one ship within a month, Head Start Yara and her Band of Unwashed Men will have time to sail thrice around the globe before they'd have to worry about pursuit by more than a fleet of Castaway-style rafts.

I'm so pleased to see Varys on a regular basis, I'm actually digging the Mereen stuff and Dinklage suits the costuming. I did end up wondering what ancient woman lurked behind the Mel-style collar though. 

 

For once I'm actually not upset about the death of one of the wolves. The show pulled that trick too often for it to have any emotional impact and I'm with the person who wouldn't mind them all dying to take away the worry and the shows favorite manipulative "cry!! cry!!! We command it!!" Trick. 

 

Mya actually gave me a head's up that something upsetting was going to happen, which I appreciated and told my husband about. His response? "Is there anyone left in this show that we care about? " and truly, he has a point. I said Davos and Sansa (and Jon, but clearly they weren't going to kill Jon again and Bran is key to the story) but he has a point, we were terrified that Littlefinger would have Brienne ambushed and killed.

 

Poor Bran is just a kid who has had terrible things happen to him. The actor being roughly forty feet tall notwithstanding, the character is how old in the show? 13? 14 at most? He was cold, lonely and had the lure of being able to see his father again, who he hadn't seen in life since the day he was pushed. Yes, something unspeakably horrible happened because of it , but it always was going to happen as Hodor has been this way from the start of the show, meaning Bloodraven likely knew it would go down.  The poor Children of the Forest , trying to save themselves from men, finally dying at the hands of their created weapon was also just a giant "fuck ups have ripples" and I doubt Bran will ever truly be able to forgive himself. He saw what he had done to Hodor and looked ready to vomit. Everyone screws up, but the poor Starks tend to screw up on an epic scale and are the only characters in the story prone to feeling any actual horror or guilt for their actions. 

 

This Starkian trait has me very worried for the repercussions of Sansa's lie to Jon. 

[mac123x]

The Children of the Forest missed a golden opportunity.  When the army of the dead attacked, they were temporarily kept out of the tree cellar by a ring of fire.  The four White Walker leaders came in on their own and sent the zombies scrambling for a different entrance.

How about having everyone armed with dragonglass and waiting around the entrance and get all stabby?  They could have decapitated the leadership of the army of the dead and ended the threat.

 

I'm annoyed with the cliffhanger with Meera and Bran.  How are we supposed to believe they escape?  Any rescue force (Benjen, wildlings, more CoF) will seem contrived.  I guess Bran could become an uber-warg and summon an army of ferrets or something.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Fishslap said:

I don't know about this. It depends on how she leaves her training. Obviously she will have grown from all this even if she isn't nobody, and maybe she manages to steal a few faces and run off or something. Or maybe she just becomes something more than her trainers. It's been fairly obvious for a while that at least one of the people she wants dead will be spared so she can kill them. Might be Cercei, but for now my money is on Lord Frey.

I somehow feel Jaqen knows full well he isn't training Arya to be no one and has all along.  Goes back to Syrio, who influenced her interactions with Jaqen from the start, which caught Jaqen's attention.  Then he gave her the coin, with instructions, which led her to Bravos, where she runs into, Jaqen and a series of events leads her to dispose of her possessions and begin her training, with Needle safely in hiding.   Now he assigns her to kill again, with no reason given and no reason she can observe -- and she just happens to be performing a play all surrounding events Arya knows well, things she knows the truth of?  

Nope, he's not intending for her to follow through with the mission.  And when she comes back and explains her (in)actions to him I think he will either send her out on her true mission or possibly address her with the face of Syrio and release her to do what she knows she must because she is finally done with her dancing lessons.  She will kill who really needs killing.  Who exactly that is will be interesting.

[Harald Hardrada]

5 minutes ago, mac123x said:

The Children of the Forest missed a golden opportunity.  When the army of the dead attacked, they were temporarily kept out of the tree cellar by a ring of fire.  The four White Walker leaders came in on their own and sent the zombies scrambling for a different entrance.

How about having everyone armed with dragonglass and waiting around the entrance and get all stabby?  They could have decapitated the leadership of the army of the dead and ended the threat.

 

I'm annoyed with the cliffhanger with Meera and Bran.  How are we supposed to believe they escape?  Any rescue force (Benjen, wildlings, more CoF) will seem contrived.  I guess Bran could become an uber-warg and summon an army of ferrets or something.

They could not do that because that would have ended the conflict Beyond-The-Wall instantly and we wouldn't have an epic battle between the Watchmen and the Walkers.

[Alapaki]

I'm intrigued by the idea suggested by the Vanity Fair review, that Bran may now be the key that allows the Others to get past the magic embedded in the Wall.  That would avoid the need to introduce Joramum's Horn, which I can't recall them having set up yet in the show.  Of course, if that was possible, I would hope that the Three-Eyed-Raven would emphasize to Bran that he cannot go back south of the Wall.  But, of course again, Bran's famous for doing things he was specifically told not to do, only to unleash shitstorms.  

Also, I'm wondering how we get the rest of the Tower of Joy flash back now that Bran is on the run and may not have time to be hunkering down at any random weir wood tree along the way to indulge in visions.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Dany has Tyrion and Varys as voices of reason. I think Sam will be Jon's. They both have a red priestess. Dario and Greyworm cancel out Tormund and Davos. Hmmm. Sansa's just along for the ride...she's like Cersei in thinking they're hot shit and not stupid. Brienne seems to be off on her own adventure probably with Pod. 

I have no idea if Bran is headed for Jon or The Wall. If he's going to tied into Jon's origin, I guess it would have to be Jon and inform on the White Wakers. So then maybe Jon doesn't get Sam's counsel who would then return and not desert the Night's Watch and help prepare them with whatever he finds out at the Maester place. Thinking it through, that has to be what happens because there's only Edd at the Wall to care about and you just don't build a wall that massive in a story without it coming down dramatically.

So maybe you're right. Jon's going to still need someone besides Mel and Davos as kindof strategists. I guess one of those other laughably loyal Northerner families will produce a yet to be seen trustable advisor.

How about Meera as advisor/strategist?  She's northern, comes from an eminently trustworthy family -- and has growing understanding of the white walker problem.

Just had a thought back to Hardhome and the NK stopping to watch Jon in light of what we've learned this week.  Whoa.

[Harald Hardrada]

30 minutes ago, morgankobi said:

Is the actor in the pic above the same one who actually plays the Night King?

Were there many blonde Starks? (He seems pretty blonde to me.)

No, different actors portray the Night's King (before and after the transformation). But I suspect that guy is a Stark, hence why he wanted Bran alive. About the hair thing, I believe maybe after 8000 years of marriage into different families with dark hair has made the Stark to appear that way. The child doesn't always follow the father's gene, like Rhaegar's children.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Harald Hardrada
typo

[morgankobi]

Of course in the real world genes mix in interesting ways. But in fiction, especially when looks and heritage are described and commented on, a variation within a group isn't usually random. My question has to do with the books. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by morgankobi

[dragonsbite]

Regarding the death of Summer and the other direwolves,

gaahhhhhhh! - okay, I'm better now. Um, wait. no I'm not...but moving on...

he had to die because Bran betrayed those closest to him by touching the tree when he knew he shouldn't have which brought the WWs to the cave. The other direwolves died similarly:  Lady died because Sansa betrayed Arya by not standing up for her against Joffrey; Grey Wind died because Robb failed to keep his word in marrying a Frey. If this is the common pattern, the question remains whether Shaggydog is really dead.

Also?  Noooooooooo, not Summer. Not Hodor. Noooooooooooo! 

gaahhhhhhh! - okay, I'm better now. Um, wait. no I'm not...

Edited May 23, 2016 by dragonsbite
wrote "Bolton" and meant "Frey"

[Gertrude]

I had also wondered if the ur-white walker was a Stark. It probably won't be addressed, but I like to think he was. Anyone else notice that the face they show on the tree looked like (not)Bloodraven? Given the fact that BR said he'd been in the tree for a thousand years, where does this put the creation of WW in the timeline? Or does it not even matter because of timeline wonkiness? (i.e. Someone in the far far past saw a vision of BR's face through his weir-walking and was inspired.) I need to rewatch it again, but was the Child who created the WW Leaf? I wasn't paying close enough attention to notice.

I know there has been speculation, or maybe something George said, about the known timeline of history being unreliable. The Long Night was supposedly 8000 years ago, but I think it's plausible to say it's been within the last 1000 years because of the face on the tree. Would like to know what others think.

[Boilergal]

From the time that Ned is being sent off as a kid it's all been predestined ? No Free Will?  

[stillshimpy]

Well I think now that Bloodraven is gone the future is unknown, but the head Child of the forest told Meera to stay a few episodes ago because Bran wouldn't always be in that cave. Both BR and she seemed to know this would happen. 

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

I blame the 3-Eyed Raven for not turning off the tree root before going to sleep. Duh!  Obviously grampy hasn't been around teenagers in a long time or he'd know you don't leave that unattended, particularly if the kid has already nagged you that he'll totes stop if he can just finish out the Tower of Joy round and then save the game at the next level.

There's no teenager I've ever known who could resist travelling through time and space just by touching a tree root.  I suspect many of the teen-aged selves of the posters shitting all over Bran couldn't have resisted the temptation either (not me, of course).

Also, Bran has been separated from all his loved ones and Winterfell for years now.  Who could resist the temptation to see them again?  And the opportunity to see his beloved home.  It's not like he was trying to pull up porn on the Internet. 

[Chris24601]

2 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

From the time that Ned is being sent off as a kid it's all been predestined ? No Free Will?  

Does the fact that I know how World War 2 ended mean that the participants of WW2 had no free will? If I'm standing on top of a building and see a person step out in front of an oncoming car they didn't see and I know they're going to get hit, does my knowledge take away their free will? Omniscience (knowing what's going to happen) does not negate the free will of the actors.

Likewise, events being influenced in a non-linear way doesn't negate free will. The only thing actually negated is linear causality (i.e. there is still causality, but sometimes the effects will precede their cause). Everyone was still free to make the choices they made but, just like the real world, there are no tap-backs when your free choice ends up screwing things up awfully and those choices can have ripples you never intended or realized.

* * *

My observation on the White Walkers is to wonder whether their power comes FROM the Children or their power was something innate that was twisted by the Children. Because we know Bran has innate power because of his Stark blood. He can see visions to affect distant times and places and exert his will over living creatures. The Night King can apparently manifest in visions and affect them (marking Bran from a distance) and control the dead like puppets.

If the Night King is an ancient Stark whose power was twisted by the magic of the Children, then it stands to reason that Bran with knowledge of the magic of the Children might be able to somehow undo it... or perhaps RE-CREATE it. Maybe Bran had to lose Summer because in the end he's going to have to transform himself into a new Night King so that he can take control of the Others and end their threat.

[AndySmith]

I know I'm supposed to act like MY MIND WAS BLOWN OVER THE HODOR REVEAL and what not but...my main reaction to that was "Ok....and?".

Good episode overall. RIP, Hodor, and say hi to Osha when you see her.

[Ruby Gillis]

10 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Actually, Shireen also had greyscale. When she was little, Stannis did everything he could to find a cure. He didn't find a cure, but somehow (through magic?) he was able to stop her greyscale from spreading/advancing further.  (Another reason why it was extra ironic and tragic how Stannis killed Shireen).

I thought the childhood form of greyscale wasn't generally fatal.  Or is that only in the books?

[Harald Hardrada]

What is dead may never die but rises again, harder and stronger.

Hodor will return. He will be back. He always do.

[Raachel2008]

I don't think Sansa is playing Jon or is ashamed of confessing that Littlefinger fooled her, I think she is being just plain arrogant and NAIVE/STUPID. This is a girl who has zero experience in planning ahead or strategic thinking, who is only alive because of a) luck, b) other people saving her ass. Yet, here she is, believing she can outsmart the slimmiest guy in the entire Westeros and deciding by herself a course of action that affects the whole North, without telling her true ally - her brother - and her much experienced advisors (sorry, Brienne doesn't count here, she could tell Brienne to jump the wall and she would). It reminds me a LOT of all Catelyn's bad decisions and stupid ideas that ultimely helped to dig the Stark grave, but in Catelyn's defense (and I cannot believe I'm deffending the woman), she had a life ruling at Ned's side and was much more of a political animal than Sansa will ever be. I don't mind Sansa being more assertive, discussing ideas, etc. But I feel like D&D got tired of all the "Sansa is a little damsel in distress" criticism and decided to just show the world how much they believe in girl!power.

It never crossed my mind that Sansa could be pregnant; now that I think about it, she could, and logic dictates she should. My SO said last night that Sophie Turner looked chubbier, could very well be that the producers asked her to pack on five pounds to look pregnant, but who knows. I guess we will have to wait and see.

I love Yara and Theon together, it works in a level that very few things work in this show. It is hard to watch and at the same time it is moving in its own way, and Alfie Allen is killing it. Yara may be one of my favorite characters right now, and I find the Ironborn fascinating - but how Euron thinks he can reach Danaerys before Yara and Theon is beyond me.

Here hoping the Targaryen and Greyjoy meeting happens like yesterday. I want Danaerys sailing asap, it has been five years in the making and now she will have the fucking ships to do it. And while I do appreciate that slavery is discusssed in the show, and I trully hope the Bay of Slaves become the Bay of Free People (or Free Explored People), it is so damn boring. Also, it wastes Tyrion in a way I didn't think it was possible. Point in case, Tyrion, from all people, trusting that Kinvara red witch bitch. Varys had a point, and a valid one, though I think the whole talk with Kinvara was only paving the way for both Danaerys and Jon being the ones who will save Westeros.

Jaqen cannot for a second believe that Arya will ever become a girl who has no name; in fact, I think that if he did, he would never be so invested in her. I fucking loved the play, Arya's reactions and, Lord, what a cast! I agree on all accounts with the poster who said that maybe next week the play will be about the Red Wedding and this is what will snap Arya back into being a new Arya - one who will never forget she is a Stark but less bloodthisrty.

It is a shame there is so much going on that we didn't get more about the Children of the Forest. I was actually hoping one of them would survive and cross to the "real world". 

Now that Jon is leaving the wall, thus getting away from the White Walkers, it makes a lot of sense that Bran in the one who will be part of their storyline.

Never getting over how Hodor died, and never getting over how he LIVED.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Raachel2008

[SFoster21]

4 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think Sansa is playing Jon or is ashamed of confessing that Littlefinger fooled her, I think she is being just plain arrogant and STUPID. This is a girl who has zero experience in planning ahead or strategic thinking, who is only alive because of a) luck, b) other people saving her ass. Yet, here she is, believing she can outsmart the slimmiest guy in the entire Westeros and deciding by herself a course of action that affects the whole North, without telling her true ally - her brother - and her much experienced advisors (sorry, Brienne doesn't count here, she could tell Brienne to jump the wall and she would). It reminds me a LOT of all Catelyn's bad decisions and stupid ideas that ultimely helped to dig the Stark grave, but in Catelyn's defense (and I cannot believe I'm deffending the woman), she had a life ruling at Ned's side and was much more of a political animal than Sansa will ever be. I don't mind Sansa being more assertive, discussing ideas, etc. But I feel like D&D got tired of all the "Sansa is a little damsel in distress" criticism and decided to just show the world how much they believe in gilr!power. 

It never crossed my mind that Sansa could be pregnant; now that I think about it, she could, and logic dictates she should. My SO said last night that Sophie Turner looked chubbier, could very well be that the producers asked her to pack on five pounds to look pregnant, but who knows. I guess we will have to wait and see.

I love Yara and Theon together, it works in a level that very few things work in this show. It is hard to watch and at the same time in its moving way, and Alfie Allen is killing it. Yara may be one of my favorite characters right now, and I find the Ironborn fascinating - but how Euron thinks he can reach Danaerys before Yara and Theon is beyond me.

Here hoping the Targaryen and Greyjoy meeting happens like yesterday. I want Danaerys sailing asap, it has been five years in the making and now she will have the fucking ships to do it. And while I do appreciate that slavery is discusssed in the show, and I trully hope the Bay of Slaves become the Bay of Free People (or Free Explored People), it is so damn boring. Also, it wastes Tyrion in a way I didn't think it was possible. Point in case, Tyrion, from all people, trusting that Kinvara red witch bitch. Varys had a point, and a valid one, though I think the whole talk with Kinvara was only paving the way for both Danaerys and Jon being the ones who will save Westeros.

Jaqen cannot for a second believe that Arya will ever become a girl who has no name; in fact, I think that if he did, he would never be so invested in her. I fucking loved the play, Arya's reactions and, Lord, what a cast! I agree on all accounts with the poster who said that maybe next week the play will be about the Red Wedding and this is what will snap Arya back into being a new Arya - one who will never forget she is a Stark but less bloodthisrty.

It is a shame there is so much going on that we didn't get more about the Children of the Forest. I was actually hoping one of them would survive and cross to the "real world". 

Now that Jon is leaving the wall, thus getting away from the White Walkers, it makes a lot of sense that Bran in the one who will be part of their storyline.

Never getting over how Hodor died, and never getting over how he LIVED.

Well, I doubt Richard E. Grant was hired for one scene, so I predict Arya joining the troupe.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Takes Us Down To Paradox City

With peace in Meereen, and a death that's a pity.

[Moon Martini]

Now that Hodor is gone, who is going to do the heavy lifting? Practically speaking, Bran is a big guy, and not easy to move.

 Another chilling thought: Hodor going to become a big ass whitewalker. Wow, everybody look out. 

Letting Littlefinger walk away was BIG mistake. He's as bad as Ramsey, but he's smart and he delegates his evil deeds. Brienne should of sliced, and diced him. 

Brienne saying Jon Snow was brooding made me bust out laughing. Understatement of the year. If you google, brooding, a picture of Jon Snow appears. 

Another funny moment. Dany commanding Ser Friendzone to find a cure for greyscale. If Iain Glen wasn't such a great actor, the scene could of been a lot worse. 

The many faced god cult doesn't impress me thus far. And Arya needs to bust out there, but first she needs to beat the everliving crap out of the upstart waif with the stick. 

 

Lastly, we need dragons, Big mofo'ing dragons. Someone send out the dragon signal out because Dany is too busy doing her hair.

The whitewalkers need to go. 

20 minutes ago, Harald Hardrada said:

What is dead may never die but rises again, harder and stronger.

Hodor will return. He will be back. He always do.

He'll be back, and his eyes will be blue. He'll be really really mad too. 

[Sakura12]

Does Euron think he can just marry Dany? What is he going do say she can have his ships only if she marries him? Then Dany will be like why don't we discuss our arrangement in this wood hut with a straw roof and 1000 lit torches. What is dead, can burn. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Sakura12

[Ambrosefolly]

6 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think Sansa is playing Jon or is ashamed of confessing that Littlefinger fooled her, I think she is being just plain arrogant and STUPID. This is a girl who has zero experience in planning ahead or strategic thinking, who is only alive because of a) luck, b) other people saving her ass. Yet, here she is, believing she can outsmart the slimmiest guy in the entire Westeros and deciding by herself a course of action that affects the whole North, without telling her true ally - her brother - and her much experienced advisors (sorry, Brienne doesn't count here, she could tell Brienne to jump the wall and she would). It reminds me a LOT of all Catelyn's bad decisions and stupid ideas that ultimely helped to dig the Stark grave, but in Catelyn's defense (and I cannot believe I'm deffending the woman), she had a life ruling at Ned's side and was much more of a political animal than Sansa will ever be. I don't mind Sansa being more assertive, discussing ideas, etc. But I feel like D&D got tired of all the "Sansa is a little damsel in distress" criticism and decided to just show the world how much they believe in girl!power.

I love Yara and Theon together, it works in a level that very few things work in this show. It is hard to watch and at the same time in its moving way, and Alfie Allen is killing it. Yara may be one of my favorite characters right now, and I find the Ironborn fascinating - but how Euron thinks he can reach Danaerys before Yara and Theon is beyond me.

Here hoping the Targaryen and Greyjoy meeting happens like yesterday. I want Danaerys sailing asap, it has been five years in the making and now she will have the fucking ships to do it. And while I do appreciate that slavery is discusssed in the show, and I trully hope the Bay of Slaves become the Bay of Free People (or Free Explored People), it is so damn boring. Also, it wastes Tyrion in a way I didn't think it was possible. Point in case, Tyrion, from all people, trusting that Kinvara red witch bitch. Varys had a point, and a valid one, though I think the whole talk with Kinvara was only paving the way for both Danaerys and Jon being the ones who will save Westeros.

Jaqen cannot for a second believe that Arya will ever become a girl who has no name; in fact, I think that if he did, he would never be so invested in her. I fucking loved the play, Arya's reactions and, Lord, what a cast! I agree on all accounts with the poster who said that maybe next week the play will be about the Red Wedding and this is what will snap Arya back into being a new Arya - one who will never forget she is a Stark but less bloodthisrty.

It is a shame there is so much going on that we didn't get more about the Children of the Forest. I was actually hoping one of them would survive and cross to the "real world". 

Now that Jon is leaving the wall, thus getting away from the White Walkers, it makes a lot of sense that Bran in the one who will be part of their storyline.

Never getting over how Hodor died, and never getting over how he LIVED.

It sucks that the people that deserve a happy ending are the ones that end up dying in horrific ways. Maybe there isn't darkness on the other side and he is meeting up with Old Nan, Osha and every other dead person from Winterfell as an intact Wylis.  Listen to Kristian Nairn it seems that Hodor, not Bran, that sacrificed himself, that Bran didn't in fact use him.

It is a shame about the Children of the Forest and I am hoping that (though remain doubtful) there are still some out there who didn't decide to live under a tree. I also can sympathize with the CoF's idea to create the White Walkers, like I can sympathize with all ethnics groups that are being or have been ethnical cleansed from their own lands. Like Bran, they tapped into a power they didn't understand as well as they thought and lost control off it, despite being powerful beings in their own right. In a roundabout way, the White Walkers did "save" them from the First Men, as it gave them a common enemy to fight against, which lead to the Pact that allowed both groups to live in a fragile harmony for a time.

I feel sorry for the proto-White Walker, but wonder if the guy was some aggressor like Drogo that the CoF's captured or some farmer that the CoF's snuck up on. In the end, he reminded me about the fairytale about the Snow Queen (the real one, not that Disney shit) where the boy gets a piece of magic glass stuck in his heart and it freezes all the humanity inside of him. All Men Must Die, because look what happens to the one that didn't. 

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

My take was definitely not pregnancy. I've got a particularly nasty scar on my ankle from a decade back that still aches whenever the weather changes or I bend it a certain way.

Given that she made a point that she specifically didn't mean "feel it in her tender heart" and that he avoided her face, my sense is that she's specifically NOT talking about remembering how it felt. Personally, I think its setting up that at some point down the line we'll get a shot of Sansa disrobing and we'll see something... scars from whips, bites, burning and/or other things... that make it clear she's going to bear the physical wounds of her time with Ramsey for the rest of her life.

That she bears them without any outward sign is a sign of just how strong she's become, but also why she'd have significant trust issues.

I think both Kit and Sophie are doing a bang up job of portraying survivors of serious trauma. Jon's uncertainty and hesitance remind me of a friend who is a disabled veteran. Its been a quarter century now since his service and injury and he still has periods where something will trigger the PTSD.

I think Sansa's lie to Jon was a similar reflexive reaction to her trauma. As bad as Ramsey was to her, I think the scars of Littlefinger's betrayal are actually the deeper ones. Having to reveal the true source of her information would have forced her to dwell on thoughts of how Littlefinger betrayed her and so, probably without even understanding her motives, used a lie to avoid having to remember those things.

Then the very next scene she's giving Jon a gift in the form of a cloak like Ned's as if nothing had happened. If she wanted Northerners to see her as the heir to Winterfell and not Jon then trying to make him look as much as possible like Ned Stark would not be the way to do it. That's the scene that to me says Sansa's lie was more about aversion of pain than some devious scheme. My hunch is that this will come up again when Jon and Sansa fail to recruit enough men from the smaller lords and we'll get a wonderfully painful scene about just how much what they've been through is still affecting them.

I, for one, am actually glad to see this development. If Jon and Sansa just went through the upcoming episodes without any significant setbacks I'd fear for their safety when the rug is pulled out from under them. But this perfectly sets up for a scene later in the season when, despite her fears and pain, Sansa will have to face Baelish again because she'll need the Vale army to win.

The person THAT does not bode well for is Littlefinger. Because if Sansa goes to see him again, she'll be ready with a double-cross of her own and there wouldn't be much that is more satisfying than seeing Littlefinger getting played by Sansa and ending up with his head on a spike (a reversal of what Littlefinger promised Cersei he'd do to Sansa in order to become Warden last season).

In spite of herself, I think Sansa was protecting both Jon and Littlefinger by lying. I don't even think it was conscious, partly for the reasons you stated about avoidance of the pain and because I think she understands that while Littlefinger may be more useful alive than dead, he will use the Vale army to try to control her. How would Jon feel about the man who sold his sister to a monster? I can't see him letting that go easily. And what would Littlefinger do to undermine Jon's authority and protections of Sansa? He already planted one seed of doubt in that last conversation. I can see Sansa instinctively knowing that Jon and Petyr would be a very bad mix. And if she's decided she doesn't want him in her life anymore despite the Vale army, why let Jon and Davos know about it? She's clearly hoping that the Blackfish will be able to come to her aid instead, and while I have my doubts about that based on how things happened in the books, I think she doesn't feel that she needs Petyr's "help" right now. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by MarySNJ

[benteen]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Also, Bran has been separated from all his loved ones and Winterfell for years now.  Who could resist the temptation to see them again?  And the opportunity to see his beloved home.  It's not like he was trying to pull up porn on the Internet. 

He was probably looking up Cersei's Walk of Shame...

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

My take was definitely not pregnancy. I've got a particularly nasty scar on my ankle from a decade back that still aches whenever the weather changes or I bend it a certain way.

Given that she made a point that she specifically didn't mean "feel it in her tender heart" and that he avoided her face, my sense is that she's specifically NOT talking about remembering how it felt. Personally, I think its setting up that at some point down the line we'll get a shot of Sansa disrobing and we'll see something... scars from whips, bites, burning and/or other things... that make it clear she's going to bear the physical wounds of her time with Ramsey for the rest of her life.

That she bears them without any outward sign is a sign of just how strong she's become, but also why she'd have significant trust issues.

I think both Kit and Sophie are doing a bang up job of portraying survivors of serious trauma. Jon's uncertainty and hesitance remind me of a friend who is a disabled veteran. Its been a quarter century now since his service and injury and he still has periods where something will trigger the PTSD.

I think Sansa's lie to Jon was a similar reflexive reaction to her trauma. As bad as Ramsey was to her, I think the scars of Littlefinger's betrayal are actually the deeper ones. Having to reveal the true source of her information would have forced her to dwell on thoughts of how Littlefinger betrayed her and so, probably without even understanding her motives, used a lie to avoid having to remember those things.

Then the very next scene she's giving Jon a gift in the form of a cloak like Ned's as if nothing had happened. If she wanted Northerners to see her as the heir to Winterfell and not Jon then trying to make him look as much as possible like Ned Stark would not be the way to do it. That's the scene that to me says Sansa's lie was more about aversion of pain than some devious scheme. My hunch is that this will come up again when Jon and Sansa fail to recruit enough men from the smaller lords and we'll get a wonderfully painful scene about just how much what they've been through is still affecting them.

I, for one, am actually glad to see this development. If Jon and Sansa just went through the upcoming episodes without any significant setbacks I'd fear for their safety when the rug is pulled out from under them. But this perfectly sets up for a scene later in the season when, despite her fears and pain, Sansa will have to face Baelish again because she'll need the Vale army to win.

The person THAT does not bode well for is Littlefinger. Because if Sansa goes to see him again, she'll be ready with a double-cross of her own and there wouldn't be much that is more satisfying than seeing Littlefinger getting played by Sansa and ending up with his head on a spike (a reversal of what Littlefinger promised Cersei he'd do to Sansa in order to become Warden last season).

I definitely think Ramsey left the mark of the Bolton sigil on Sansa.  I don't think there's any way he could have resisted.  I think Roose knew it and was berating Ramsey for that right before Ramsey killed him.  It didn't make sense to me at the time that he would berate Ramsey's means of impregnating Sansa because that was immaterial as long as it produced a Stark heir to hold up to the other northern houses. 

[Misplaced]

8 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I feel sorry for the proto-White Walker [snip]. In the end, he reminded me about the fairytale about the Snow Queen (the real one, not that Disney shit) where the boy gets a piece of magic glass stuck in his heart and it freezes all the humanity inside of him. All Men Must Die, because look what happens to the one that didn't. 

That is brilliant!  Particularly as the magic glass is dragon-glass formed by fire....(maybe the Night King is the song of ice and fire...)  

Btw, the actor looked awfully familiar but I couldn't place him -- anybody know? 

[kittykat]

Quote

the Starks have always sent a son to the watch. He was third in line, not important in the scheme of succession, he must have joined before robert's rebellion.

I know in the books there was an old guideline in the noble houses with three or more sons that the first was the heir, the second would become a knight and the third would go to the wall.  This was back when most of the wall holdfasts were still in operation.  Recent examples would be Benjen and Waymar Royce, (sigh, our first death, memories) Yohn's third son.

12 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

It is a shame about the Children of the Forest and I am hoping that (though remain doubtful) there are still some out there who didn't decide to live under a tree. I also can sympathize with the CoF's idea to create the White Walkers, like I can sympathize with all ethnics groups that are being or have been ethnical cleansed from their own lands. Like Bran, they tapped into a power they didn't understand as well as they thought and lost control off it, despite being powerful beings in their own right. In a roundabout way, the White Walkers did "save" them from the First Men, as it gave them a common enemy to fight against, which lead to the Pact that allowed both groups to live in a fragile harmony for a time.

It's sort of similar to Cersei putting the Faith Militant in power to dispatch her enemies only to have them grow more powerful and turn on her.

My other theory is that the OWW is either the Night's King or possible Coldhands.  The second would only work if they show him soon otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

So from my understanding: Brienne is going to the Riverlands, Sansa is going to Bear Island, does this mean Davos is going to White Harbor and rejoining Book territory?  Who is Jon tagging along with?  Curious to see how this plays out.

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

I can't remember -- why did Benjen join the Nightwatch? Surely he wasn't a criminal, was he?

Northmen, particularly the Starks, feel it's their honor and duty to man the Wall.  I have a feeling that the criminals generally come from the south.

12 hours ago, Minneapple said:

For a moment I had a sliver of hope that Euron was actually dead. Dammit. Would have been kind of hilarious if he actually drowned.

I know, right?  From the book I had the idea that Damphair performed some sort of CPR, "breath of the drowned god" or somesuch, but not just stand there waiting to see if the drowned person coughed.

About Jorah, I'm hoping that with the recent return of magic there will be a cure for greyscale.  Maybe dragon poo.

11 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Actually, Shireen also had greyscale. When she was little, Stannis did everything he could to find a cure. He didn't find a cure, but somehow (through magic?) he was able to stop her greyscale from spreading/advancing further.  (Another reason why it was extra ironic and tragic how Stannis killed Shireen).

Greyscale isn't fatal in children.  

Despite all the tragedy I have to say I loved, loved the looks between Thormund and Brienne.  Match made in heaven.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Haleth

[Oscirus]

Few miscellaneous thoughts:

That play was fairly nice to Sansa given the crown's current thoughts on her.

Poor Meera. That poor girl can never catch a break. She's basically Bran's Brienne except without all the fun stuff. That being said, she's probably my favorite bad ass female. Stuff keeps happening to her and she keeps raising to the call.

The red priestess saying "helping the lord's chosen bring  his light into the world," had to be referring to Tyrion. Right?

The Hodor Wight is going to be one tough customer.

[Boilergal]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Does the fact that I know how World War 2 ended mean that the participants of WW2 had no free will? If I'm standing on top of a building and see a person step out in front of an oncoming car they didn't see and I know they're going to get hit, does my knowledge take away their free will? Omniscience (knowing what's going to happen) does not negate the free will of the actors.

Likewise, events being influenced in a non-linear way doesn't negate free will. The only thing actually negated is linear causality (i.e. there is still causality, but sometimes the effects will precede their cause). Everyone was still free to make the choices they made but, just like the real world, there are no tap-backs when your free choice ends up screwing things up awfully and those choices can have ripples you never intended or realized.

If something happened at the end of World War II that required an event to happen today - it is predetermined that all events leading up to today's event must happen exactly for the event of 72 years ago to happen - any free will along that path changes the event. If Bran hadn't been born, If Bran hadn't been tossed out of the window, If Bran hadn't had to be carried to safety by Hodor, If Bran hadn't run into JoJen and Meera,  If Bran hadn't ended up at the Weirwood with the 3ER  - of course there are so many other things that had to happen to get Bran exactly where he was in order for the "Hold the Door" to play out and change Wylis of 40 years ago.

eta: because math

Edited May 23, 2016 by Boilergal

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Does Euron think he can just marry Dany? What is he going do say she can have his ships only if she marries him? Then Dany will be like why don't we discuss our arrangement in this wood hut with a straw roof and 1000 lit torches. What is dead, can burn. 

The only thing about the Ironborn that I like is the inevitable comic moment when Victarion tries to take Dany for a bride.  

I don't know if we'll learn any more about the Night King's origins, but he was surely a Stark.  I'm trying to remember the legend of the NK.  He took an undead bride and was later executed?  Something like that.  I don't know how it reconciles with the CotF stabbing him with dragon glass.

Interesting speculation several pages back that Bran's crossing under the Wall with the mark of the NK might lead to its collapse.

[Tikichick]

Not so sure Hodor will become a Wight.  That possibility will have to be used very carefully or it could undermine a lot of the events that have and will take place, and of course balloon the cast too much to be feasible.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Does Euron think he can just marry Dany? What is he going do say she can have his ships only if she marries him? Then Dany will be like why don't we discuss our arrangement in this wood hut with a straw roof and 1000 lit torches. What is dead, can burn. 

Don't forget his secret weapon - his "big cock".   He's just going to flash it at Dany and she will marry him on the spot  

50 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Few miscellaneous thoughts:

That play was fairly nice to Sansa given the crown's current thoughts on her.

Poor Meera. That poor girl can never catch a break. She's basically Bran's Brienne except without all the fun stuff. That being said, she's probably my favorite bad ass female. Stuff keeps happening to her and she keeps raising to the call.

The red priestess saying "helping the lord's chosen bring  his light into the world," had to be referring to Tyrion. Right?

The Hodor Wight is going to be one tough customer.

I thought the "his" being referred to is the lord.  Meaning the chosen one brings the lord's light into the world. 

[kcbuckeye2]

2 hours ago, Misplaced said:

Btw, the actor looked awfully familiar but I couldn't place him -- anybody know?

When I first saw him, I thought of Tim Roth.  I know it's not, but that is who he looked like to me.

[maraleia]

As much as I hate Euron Greyjoy I'm loving how Pilou Asbæk is playing him. I loved Pilou as Kaspar Juul in Borgen and as Didrich in 1864 (two fantastic Danish TV shows).

Also, yeah for Essie Davis who is lighting up the screen in numerous Australian productions.

RIP Hodor and Summer.

[DigitalCount]

On another note, the parallels are flowing fast and furious.

Problem: Your lands are being taken over by humans.
Leaf: I know, I'll recruit someone who cares not a whit about my cause and give him superpowers

Problem: You need to take the Iron Throne, which is yours by right.
Stannis: I know, I'll recruit someone who cares not a whit about my cause and give her king's blood to enable her superpowers

Problem: You need to consolidate your control over your son while ousting your popular daughter-in-law.
Cersei: I know, I'll recruit someone who cares not a whit about my cause and give them social superpowers

Problem: You need to convince the people your queen in absentio is responsible for the temporary peace.
Tyrion: I know, I'll recruit someone who cares not a whit about my cause and allow her within reach of the living embodiments of her emblem, which will fuel her superpowers

Problem: You need to take back your ancestral werewolfy home from the vampires infesting it.
Jonsa: Let's recruit people who care about our cause, maybe?

And that's why they'll win.

Edited May 23, 2016 by DigitalCount

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I don't know if we'll learn any more about the Night King's origins, but he was surely a Stark.  I'm trying to remember the legend of the NK.  He took an undead bride and was later executed?  Something like that.  I don't know how it reconciles with the CotF stabbing him with dragon glass.

Someone somewhere confirmed that the Night King (President for Unlife of the White Walkers) is different from the Night's King in the books.  Bran remembered the legend of the Knight's King when they were camping out at the Nightfort.  He was the 13th Lord Comander of the Night's Watch, married a blue-eyed bride and enslaved the NW until the Starks of Winterfell and Jorumun King Beyond the Wall united to overthrow him.  Old Nan told the story to Bran many times, and said the Night's King was a Stark.

As Maester Lewyn said, her stories shouldn't be swallowed whole.  It sounds an awful lot like a legend passed down and distorted with each retelling. 

 

The chronology of prehistory is pretty muddled, but this bit about the Children making the White Walkers puts an interesting spin on it.  From the World Book:

Dawn Age: 

1.  CoF, Giants living in Westeros peacefully, lovey-dovey hippies.

2.  First Men cross the Arm of Dorne and war breaks out with the CoF

3.  CoF break the arm of Dorne, flood the Neck.

4.  After a long war, the CoF and the First Men form the Pact on the Isle of Faces, ushering in the --

Age of Heroes:

5.  Heroes do heroic acts of heroism

6.  Long Night hits, CoF and First Men band together to fight it off, build the Wall, start the Night's Watch.

So if that;s the order of the events, and the Children created the White Walkers, it makes them out to be pretty treacherous.  They formed a peace with the First Men but eventually launched a biological weapon against them.

[Mya Stone]

Still crying. Still unreasonably upset at my son Bran for reasons he does not understand. 

 

(Really. My almost 5 year old's name is Bran. For Bran Stark.)

[Tryangle]

In the past, we saw Varys get outwitted once, by Olenna Tyrell. But this situation with Kinvara stunned him to the core. Speaking of stunning, this red priestess is that in spades. Of course, we're all skeptical after seeing a jewel-less Melisandre a few episodes ago...

When Euron proclaimed that he was going to win Dany over, I immediately thought that maybe he'd get the Quentyn Martell treatment.

[Fishslap]

5 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This may have been addressed by now, but for me, it's not the wolves per se that I am upset about. From reading the books, we know that the wolves are not just pets but extensions of their counterparts. Ned even realizes that killing Lady was probably a huge mistake, moreso than just killing a beloved pet. When Shaggy died, I feared for Rickon in a way that was more visceral than just being in Ramsey's clutches. I was sad to see Summer go, but less so because now I just think D&D don't want to deal with the CGI for them. If this happens in the books, then I definitely fear for the long-term survival of those boys.

But it means something right? Either they're dying to foreshadow the Starks they're tied to dying, or they are symbols of the stupidity of Ned Stark in S1. If his children are less stupid and honorable than Ned their wolves will die. My point was that human characters on the show can be flayed and have their privates cut off and it's all fun and entertainment, and then when a wolf that has had no lines so far dies fighting zombies people get upset. I just don't understand it.

[benteen]

I wonder if this is going to be the last time we see Euron this season, at least until the season finale.  Building a massive war fleet on an island sparse in natural resources takes a LONG time.  The only way I see it happening is if Littlefinger suddenly shows up with his transporter and offers them 5,000 ships.  Seriously, if LF showed up next week on the Iron Islands I would laugh my ass off.

I suspect that if D&D can finally get off their Ramsay fixation and kill the character this season, Euron might slip into the villain role (along with Cersei) until the White Walker endgame.

Euron thinking he can seduce Dany with his "big cock" reminds me of something that Theon would do.  Can you imagine Season 2 Theon (pre-Ramsay) going into Meereen, convinced that he could get the Mother of Dragons to marry him?  It would have been comedic gold.