S06.E05: The Door

[DigitalCount]

Can we call him Bran the Breaker yet? Hey Bran, you know what else you should do? Send your baby brother to the Umbers, they'll take good care of him! Ugh. I'll be over in the corner.

[Ambrosefolly]

Just now, DigitalCount said:

Can we call him Bran the Breaker yet? Hey Bran, you know what else you should do? Send your baby brother to the Umbers, they'll take good care of him! Ugh. I'll be over in the corner.

Can't blame him for that. The last Bran knew, Robb was still I alive and it was GreatJon's fucking idea that Robb be King, instead of joining with Stannis. Can see that the people that wanted most wanted Robb to be king could be trusted with Rickon.

[aslightjump]

That was a great episode! Like three mysteries solved at once.

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I don't think there was anything particularly sinister or vicious about Sansa's actions. Even that comment about Jon she kinda backtracked on (badly.) Like, she's more assertive, but she's still new to this, she doesn't exactly know what she's doing. So I'm not sure it's that she doesn't trust Jon so much as she doesn't trust Littlefinger and is honestly kind of winging it. She doesn't want to have anything to do with anybody that isn't family or a Northerner. I mean, she ended up listening to Davos and Jon and cooperating with their plan while getting to add her own opinion so that was nice. That was the weirdest war council I've ever seen.

Jon: I like the wolf bit.

Oh my god, Jon.

[calvinshobbes]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I don't say that at all, actually. If Bran hadn't fallen from the tower I don't think it would have made a huge difference in The Fall of the House of Stark. The dominos were set up to fall eventually.

My point was just to note that even though Bran is no longer a heedless 10 year old, and despite the hard lesson of his fall and everything he's learned about his mission and the mortality of the people around him, he still mulishly plays with danger as if he were still that ten year old. It's long past time he grew the fuck up, and other people paid the price for his insistence on playing.

I think the theory is that if Bran had not  been pushed and broken his back, he would have gone to King's Landing with his sisters and Ned/Catelyn?  instead of staying North. His disability and the  whole chain of events sharpened his warging abilities. We don't know what the endgame is for Bran but he seems like an important player (l.e. warging to control a dragon maybe?). So all those events like his fall and Hodor brought him to this point.

Edited May 23, 2016 by calvinshobbes

[SoWindsor]

Why wouldn't stannis have documented how he cured shireen?

A lot of people complaining about tyrion dialogue. Isn't GRRM consulting? You don't think he's helping at all? 

Edited May 23, 2016 by SoWindsor

[TexasChic]

I wonder if Hodor remembered his death, from that day in the courtyard forward, and that's what broke his mind?

As for Bran changing things, I think it has been said in the show that the past has already been written. Anything he does that alters the past has already been done in the future, by him.

[J----av]

 Probably my favorite episode of the season, but this year still seems more like it was written by fans (and it kinda was). Particularly everything to do with    Brienne, Sansa, Jon and Dany. The story this year seems like fanfic you would find on the internet most of the time 

[Umbelina]

I just read something in the non-book thread that has me wondering. 

Do we know if Littlefinger lied to Sansa about the Tully army?  Have we seen anything on the show about their availability/strength.  My mind is sleepy, I can't remember the show or the books about the Tully group right now. 

Just now, TexasChic said:

I wonder if Hodor remembered his death, from that day in the courtyard forward, and that's what broke his mind?

As for Bran changing things, I think it has been said in the show that the past has already been written. Anything he does that alters the past has already been done in the future, by him.

I'd think so, the horror of it wrecked him.

Well since Bran apparently did it decades before he was born, I think it's all up for grabs.

[Conan Troutman]

5 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Why wouldn't stannis have documented how he cured shireen?

A lot of people complaining about tyrion dialogue. Isn't GRRM consulting? You don't think he's helping at all? 

Stannis doesn't know what exactly did the trick. He basically threw everything there was and more at it and has no clue what worked. 

He's only consulting in that he told D&D what's going to happen. He doesn't write dialogue. I guess they have access to the unfinished book, but as the show diverges more and more, they can't use any of the dialogue. 

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I've seen a lot of speculation on Twitter that Sansa is pregnant, and after reading all of it I'm not sure what to think.

Not pregnant?: Sansa seems way too upbeat for someone worried about a potential Ramsay pregnancy. Sansa's reference to being able to feel the things Ramsay did is plausibly just a reference to PTSD. Sansa being pregnant would be a bridge too far in terms of deviations from the books (where Sansa is still a virgin and will never marry Ramsay). Sansa is likely sewing a new dress because her old one is dingy and drab. No fetus could have survived that jump.

Pregnant?: Sansa referenced Ramsay's concern with making an heir this episode (and reminded the audience that she has been raped many times). Sansa could be sewing a new dress because her old dress is too tight (although that would mean months would have passed since conception, which seems unlikely). Sansa could be alluding to a pregnancy when she talks about being able to feel what Ramsay did to her.

I'm pretty confident she's not pregnant, personally. I guess we'll see.

When she was chewing out LF, I kept getting the impression that she was going to open her cloak and show her pregnant belly. Has there been a scene with Sansa where we've seen a closely fitted dress?

[Fishslap]

14 hours ago, BloatedGuppy said:

The Wall and North of the Wall continue to sustain what is becoming a ridiculously erratic and shaky show.

• What even is Littlefinger's plan supposed to be? How does marching The Vale's forces north to engage the Boltons accomplish anything for him? It's convoluted in the books, but the show manifestation is downright comical. Also, does the guy own a Time Travelling DeLorean? His ability to whisk from one end of Westeros to the other as the needs of each episode's plot demands is astonishing. If he showed up in Braavos next to mug for the camera and garble out of the side of his mouth at Arya I'd only be marginally surprised.
• The Kingsmoot sequence puts the final nail in the appalling coffin that was the show-canon Ironborn. The novelization of the Kingsmoot was a rambling and frequently boring cautionary example of Martin's myopic fascination with his tertiary plot lines. It should have been easy to top. Instead we get this stillborn atrocity. Makes elements of the Dorne storyline look almost competent in comparison. Absolutely risible dialogue coupled with pitiful production values and dubious acting. No room in the budget for a horn? I started laughing about halfway through and couldn't stop.
• Mereen continues to be awful. Tyrion thrived as a character when he had Martin's dialogue to spout. The anachronistic drivel they have him vomiting up every episode at this point is cringe-worthy. I appreciate that Dinklage is the headlining star at this point and they need something for him to do while the plot spins its wheels, but this has to be embarrassing for the man. It's all tipsy bickering and deck chair shuffling.
• I wanted to get emotional over Jorah, but A) Emilia Clarke, despite doing her best, is not the most convincing actress, and B) he doesn't even have Greyscale, damn it! He's fine!
• The Children of the Forest and the curious makeup decisions the show made with them distracted during an otherwise entertaining end sequence. I guess "entertaining" isn't the right word, it bordered on emotionally punitive. I get that fur is expensive to animate, guys, but you're running out of Direwolves.
• Hold the Door is beautifully tragic and poignant enough that I'm strongly suspicious it's canonically official. 
• Ended the episode feeling a bit blue, and then Penny Dreadful kicked my heart in. They have GOT to stop giving Rory Kinnear and Eva Green these scenes together. The human heart can only take so much pathos.

LF wants the crown right, so he needs to get the major rivals out of the way as well as to rule the north to use against the Tyrells and Dorn. First he got the Barathions, Lannisters and Starks to self destruct by killing Jon Arryn and getting Ned killed to kick off civil war, and then he swooped in to secure control of the Vale after killing Joffre. Now he wants to use the Vale to take control of the north through Sansa, who he probably wants to marry if he can. And then finally he can turn the north back south on a decimated King's Landing and rule from the Iron Throne. Obviously he's completely missing the White Walkers and apparently the Mother of Titles and her dragons as well. But isolated inside the intrigue of Westeros everything he's been doing makes sense I think, and it still does.

Agree on Mereen and the Iron Islands though. Nothing happens at all and the dialogue is at times cringeworthy. You could obviously add Dorn to that, although we were fortunately spared that this episode.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Fishslap
Spellage

[Umbelina]

It was the "I still feel it in my body" or however she said it that made me wonder if Sansa's pregnant.

[Dewey Decimate]

I can't believe Sansa would hang onto a Ramsey spawn. Lil' moon tea'll cure what ails ya.

I honestly thought the main purpose of LF's smirky half-brother remark was yet another of his "I know something that youuuu don't" about Jon's true origins. Almost more of a wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the audience.

Boy, even for the Iron Islands, that's a right crappy crown. Good scene, though, and finally moving towards the other storylines. Greyjoy sib-powers activate!

I'm coming down with a suspected cold, and I don't know what's hurting more: scratchy throat exacerbated by cackling with laughter at Tormund's idea of a flirtmance (had to rewind it a few times), or headache induced by power-crying at the last five minutes. I usually look forward to the second watching of each ep but I'll have to save this one for a time at which I have at least 12 hours to eradicate puffy eyes.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Dewey Decimate
wrong medicinal herb

[loki567]

Oddly enough, Summer's death bothers me more than Hodor's. Because Hodor got a worthy emotional send-off. Summer dying is the show at its worst impulses, "well, we don't have to deal with this character anymore, let's kill them off." 

It's funny we got the play reenacting the first season, reminding the audience of stupid Ned Stark. Between Bran's massive blunders, Sansa's lying to Jon, and Arya about to intervene on the actress's behalf, feels like we're getting the past, present, and future fuck-ups of the Stark family. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by loki567

[GrailKing]

54 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

the Starks have always sent a son to the watch. He was third in line, not important in the scheme of succession, he must have joined before robert's rebellion.

He was the Stark in Winterfell during that war.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

When she was chewing out LF, I kept getting the impression that she was going to open her cloak and show her pregnant belly. Has there been a scene with Sansa where we've seen a closely fitted dress?

No, but Sansa's style of dress--a very thick dress worn over an underskirt--has always made the actress look wider than she actually is. Looking at Sansa this episode, her clothes seemed to fit fine.

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It was the "I still feel it in my body" or however she said it that made me wonder if Sansa's pregnant.

It was an odd line, since she did say she could feel it IN her body. I suppose it could be a reference to remembering how it felt when Ramsay was raping her, though. The not-so-subtle reminder in the same bit of dialogue that Ramsay was trying to get Sansa to bear him an heir--"he did what he liked with the rest of me as long as I could still give him an heir"--stuck out to me as a likelier red flag.

[Shimmergloom]

Yeah he was too young to join during the rebellion.  Benjen was a lot younger than Lyanna(as we could see in the flashbacks) and she was only 16 when she died, so he was probably around 12 at the most.

[Fishslap]

23 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

I can't believe Sansa would hang onto a Ramsey spawn. Lil' gillyflower'll cure what ails ya.

I honestly thought the main purpose of LF's smirky half-brother remark was yet another of his "I know something that youuuu don't" about Jon's true origins. Almost more of a wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the audience.

Boy, even for the Iron Islands, that's a right crappy crown. Good scene, though, and finally moving towards the other storylines. Greyjoy sib-powers activate!

I'm coming down with a suspected cold, and I don't know what's hurting more: scratchy throat exacerbated by cackling with laughter at Tormund's idea of a flirtmance (had to rewind it a few times), or headache induced by power-crying at the last five minutes. I usually look forward to the second watching of each ep but I'll have to save this one for a time at which I have at least 12 hours to eradicate puffy eyes.

I only have her word for it, but my mother told me she once dated Kristoffer Hivju's father back in the early 70s. She isn't eight feet tall though, and he probably shaved. Still...

[operakatz]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

You know what? Fuck Bran Stark. He broke his back because he refused to do as he was told and stop climbing freakin' towers. Now he gets Bloodraven, the Direwolf, a number of Children and Hodor killed (and retroactively brain-damaged) by undertaking an action he knew damned well was dangerous and was told not to do, simply because he was bored and wanted to jack in and download porn on the weirless network without oversight. Fuck him.

Yea, but since Hodor was Hodor from beginning of this tale, means it had to happen because it already had. Ugh.

[Ambrosefolly]

26 minutes ago, loki567 said:

Oddly enough, Summer's death bothers me more than Hodor's. Because Hodor got a worthy emotional send-off. Summer dying is the show at its worst impulses, "well, we don't have to deal with this character anymore, let's kill them off." 

It's funny we got the play reenacting the first season, reminding the audience of stupid Ned Stark. Between Bran's massive blunders, Sansa's lying to Jon, and Arya about to intervene on the actress's behalf, feels like we're getting the past, present, and future fuck-ups of the Stark family. 

At least when the Starks fuck up, they don't blame others, usually.

[VCRTracking]

Another Stark fuckup if we're to believe that R + L=J and  Lyanna went willingly and was not abducted by Rhaegar, then that was a huge fuck up as well. I know fans love her because she might be Jon's mother and she was fierce and didn't accept gender roles like Arya and think it's romantic but she went off with a married man who had kids because she thought Robert would stray? Her father and brother were killed and thousands died over this! I don't get why people who believe it was consensual think it's so romantic.

Edited May 23, 2016 by VCRTracking

[nurse1]

Dear sweet, Hodor...goodbye, you will be missed and Summer so loyal and awesome . This episode was all things good about Game of Thrones, I also admit that everybody gave me major "feels"  I did get teary eyed with both deaths, and I so want major revenge!!!

Sansa is so becoming one of my fave characters....she has really grown but trusting Littlefinger is not good, but I think that she is smarter than we think (or I hope so anyway)

[AnnaMayWong]

If  sμ¡+  comes to a 'SNOWdown' betwixt Jon and Sansa, I'm going to be with Jon.

[VCRTracking]

Thinking about it, so many things could have changed if Wyllis stayed Wyllis. Maybe he would have been a stable boy all his life as he was as Hodor, but he also could have had the mind to defy Nan and and learned to fight and served House Stark that way. Having a giant who can fight is a huge advantage as we've seen with the Mountain.

[Oscirus]

I must say this story is coming down to the starks doing what they want. Except now it's dangerous since everybody else is paying the consequences.

1. We have Sansa in war council meetings interrupting when it's obvious she has no idea what the fuck she's talking about

2. We have Bran and his countless fuckups where everybody else but him has to pay for them.

3. There's Arya who insists upon joining an organization that she clearly shouldn't be joining for no other reason then it's cool. And you know what, she'll probably be able to escape later on because, why not?

I would include deserting Jon but at least his actions are productive.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Oscirus

[patchwork]

"Hold The Door" wow that was brutal and poor Summer. I don't see how Meera is going to get them to safety and I doubt they managed to escape with a lot of supplies. Does Beyond The Wall have oversized eagles by any chance? 

I think Sansa is going to tell Jon about Littlefinger and the Vale Knights at some point because she did look a little disturbed to realise she lied to him when she probably didn't have to. Kings Landing has left it's mark on her and I can't say I blame her for not wanting to invite a creep back into life, she just managed to escape her rapist husband and Littlefinger is hardly trustworthy politically speaking. The knights would be handy but ultimately they are loyal to someone other than house Stark and there's no vested interest in what's best for the North i.e. not the house that likes to skin people alive. Plus she's seen the Robyn/Littlefinger dynamic up close so she knows how much influence he has over that little psycho.  

I'm glad that The Wall continues to have the touch of humour that Kings Landing used to have- Brienne has no time for bullshit or heart eyes and Jon is just terrible at giving compliments "I like the wolf bit".   

Recruiting the Blackfish and a Tully army seems like a great idea and I'm glad the show is doing it but I can't see the point of us the viewers going to the Riverlands if they're not doing Stoneheart or Jaime's redemption. With Theon's involvement I'm a little more interested in the goings on of the Ironborn and Dany meeting Yara meeting could be a real clash of personalities so I hope that's where this is going. I can't see Yara bowing down to Dany even if she does the unburnt trick and I really want Dany to start meeting more people who don't buy into her shtick but have their own reasons for sticking around and are less diplomatic about it that Tyrion. 

[J----av]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I must say this story is coming down to the starks doing what they want. Except now it's dangerous since everybody else is paying the consequences.

1. We have Sansa in war council meetings interrupting when it's obvious she has no idea what the fuck she's talking about

2. We have Bran and his countless fuckups where everybody else but him has to pay for them.

3. There's Arya who insists upon joining an organization that she clearly shouldn't be joining for no other reason then it's cool. And you know what, she'll probably be able to escape later on because, why not?

Uh....what? I don't think you have been paying close enough attention

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, J----av said:

Uh....what? I don't think you have been paying close enough attention

Are you saying that she should be joining the faceless men?  Because if not, all I'm seeing is that Jaqen and Waif keep giving her outs and she refuses to take them.

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Thinking about it, so many things could have changed if Wyllis stayed Wyllis. Maybe he would have been a stable boy all his life as he was as Hodor, but he also could have had the mind to defy Nan and and learned to fight and served House Stark that way. 

If he had become a Stark soldier, it's likely he would have been killed with the rest of the Stark army either at Winterfell or the Twins or maybe even during Robert's Rebellion. If he had stayed just a stable boy and not become Bran's legs, he probably would have died during the Ironborn attack. I'm not sure if that makes his fate better or worse. This way he lived longer but his life was probably less fulfilling than it could have been. 

[J----av]

19 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Are you saying that she should be joining the faceless men?  Because if not, all I'm seeing is that Jaqen and Waif keep giving her outs and she refuses to take them.

 Why would she take the out yet? She doesn't yet have the skills to cross people off her list and the FM are teaching her the skills she needs. OBVIOUSLY she will never be a FM, but she can't kill Cersei, The Mountain, etc... till she gets better at killing. She didn't just join them because she thought it "was cool". I don't know how anyone watching could possibly think that

[Oscirus]

23 minutes ago, J----av said:

 Why would she take the out yet? She doesn't yet have the skills to cross people off her list and the FM are teaching her the skills she needs. OBVIOUSLY she will never be a FM, but she can't kill Cersei, The Mountain, etc... till she gets better at killing. She didn't just join them because she thought it "was cool". I don't know how anyone watching could possibly think that

If I used your reason that would be even worse. That would be like joining the mafia to pick up shooting skills.

But for the sake of argument, fine, she's joining a deadly club where to get fired means to get killed. A club, where she knows that she can't meet the requirements in hopes that she can  pick up skills necessary to freelance. Because that's how the FM work now apparently.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Oscirus

[Misplaced]

The Battle of Treefell !!  Wowsers.  That was all kinds of awesome.  Hodor, *sob*.  Summer, *sob*.  I did not at any time in the past many, many years see the CotF creating the White Walkers.  Was that Dragonglass inserted into the Night King's heart?  It would make sense, given that Dragonglass kills them.  But what - the - hell!  

Direwolves dying - I'm starting to think it's a symbol of destroying everything that was Stark about the Starks -- the ones who survive have to become something other than honorable old Ned.  (Summer!  *sob*)

Tyrion:  that was very intriguing camera work when the Red Priestess is talking to Varys.  She says "[If not for that middling sorcerer burning your bits] you wouldn't be here, helping the Lord's Chosen [camera focuses on Tyrion] bring His [or his??] Light into the world."  So is Tyrion the Lord's Chosen?  (Also, what a total bummer to hear "yeah, by the way, the guy who ruined your life when you were a kid was totes second-rate.")  Also again, Varys' bird network is still flying strong if he's all caught up with Red Priestess rivalry.  

Sansa:  did I miss something or did she just send Littlefinger's army away?!  

Euron: I liked that D&D saved the resurrection from the books for this scene.  But the whole Kingsmoot kind of dragged for me, which may be the problem of knowing the outcome already.  

Arya - yawn.  A girl needs to get on with it.  Best part of the whole scene was Essie Davis and Richard E. Grant.  We got a version of the Mercy chapter last season, so I'm intrigued to see what happens here ...

Dany - very touching scene with Jorah but also yawn.  

ETA that's pretty fancy needlework for a short period of time, Sansa!

Edited May 23, 2016 by Misplaced

[Boudicea]

6 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Is it at all possible that Arya's assassin training will lead to her joining forces with Sansa and neutralizing their opponents?  If Sansa can't personally kill Ramsay, I'm not averse to Arya doing the job.

Since we've never returned to the Tower of Joy, and it seems that Bran will never get to again, was that scene simply to tease the R+L=J believers?

The woman playing the red priestess seemed similar to Melisandre down to their accents.  Surely it's not a coincidence.  And this one had the self-control not to flash a boob.

It is more likely that Arya would team up with Jon than Sansa.

 

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm wanting to reserve judgment on Sansa lying to Jon five minutes after they finally got the band back together but it doesn't fill me with optimism.  She was awfully quick to reject the offer of troops she knows they're going to need.  I get that she doesn't trust Littlefinger and her call out of him was a thing of beauty, but under the circumstances it would certainly be something worth investigating. Jon's war council of Sansa, Edd, a wildling leader, two Southroners, and a foreign priestess amused me because nearly everyone there was clearly out of their depths.  When Sansa was going on about how Northerners are different because they're loyal, Davos was at least trying to be kind in pointing out that quite of a few of those same Northerners have so far just accepted the Boltons taking over.   Also loved Brienne basically calling Jon a broody emo and noting that Davos and Mel have been serving Jon for all of about five minutes now after everything they did in service to Stannis.  I'm just thrilled she's finally on her way to the Riverlands.

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Man the last however minutes were some of the best this show has ever done. Gripping and sad. Good stuff.

Arya's scenes were also decent this week. The play made things interesting.

As for the wall scenes, I think we are seeing the beginning of Dark Sansa. I have always suspected that if we get Stark Vs Stark, it will be Sansa going against the rest. The effects of  that LF planting the seed of mistrust and asking her to get an army that is loyal only to her is seen by Sansa lying to Jon. No other reason for her. Jon has been shown to be pragmatic : He can work with enemies and use their armies. He is also not a fool. If Brienne and Sansa tell him that LF is shady, then Jon would believe them. Sansa is also not trying to protect LF, because Jon is not some idiot barbarian who is going to run off and kill LF.  Her keeping it from Jon, means that she is keeping that info in her backpocket in case things with Jon does not go the way she wants. Her saying that Jon is not a Stark but she is, could also be a hint here to her line of thinking.

I am guessing that after they retake Winterfell (With LF bringing in the Vale army) we are going to see a divide between Sansa/LF and Jon.

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jon needs to send a raven to mereen and borrow Tyrion with the quickness. Hell, borrow Jorah or Dario at this point. Just don't let Jorah touch you :x

 

That war council was a bit strange, because they dont really know each other well and they dont really known if they can trust each other. 

Hmm I might be very wrong, perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part. But I thought Jon was acting like a good commander would act during that war council. I think it was Tyrion or someone who has mentioned how Tywin would keep quiet and just listen to what everyone had to say, and while listening to everyone he would make up his mind about the best strategy and inform everyone about his decision after the discussion was over. 

I think that is what Jon was doing, he waited and listened to everyone and after the main points was aired, he suggested that their strategy should be towards recruiting the smaller houses. 

This is one area that the show has never really touched upon with Jon. Jon really has a great understanding of Northern politics in the books. I hope we do get to see a glimpse of that this season, instead of just having Jon as the action hero. 

I have thought that there might be some divide between Jon and Sansa for the North somewhere down the road. But I did not think it would come from Sansa herself, I thought if it was going to happen it would rather be through the houses and the support that they are willing to lend to the cause. I dont think the North cares that much about bastards, in general they might be  more concerned with strength. 

It would be quite illogical for Sansa to actually mistrust Jon. He did not suggest himself for the position as the leader of the North, he was reluctant. If Sansa wants to be in charge then Jon would not stand her way, she does not really have a reason to believe that he would try and steal her position. She is the one who suggested that he should be the leader. 

I think Sansa is very right to mistrust Littlefinger, it would perhaps be better if she just spoke to the Lords of the Vale directly. But she shouldn't be lying to Jon. If she told Jon about all of her dealings and experience with Littlefinger, then he would support her decisions in regards to Littlefinger. She is sitting right there, and giving her own input into the war council, therefore she doesn't really have a reason to think that Jon wouldn't listen to her opinions, he was doing it right there.

Right now she has just weakened her position with Littlefinger. She is obviously going to have to ask for his help at some stage in the future, and then Littlefinger would be in a position of power because she would really need his help. 

 

3 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

the Starks have always sent a son to the watch. He was third in line, not important in the scheme of succession, he must have joined before robert's rebellion.

No Benjen was in Winterfell during the rebellion. It was actually strange for him to take the black directly after the rebellion. Rickard Stark was killed their big brother and heir Brandon was killed, and their sister was killed. Ned was still alive, but at that stage Robb was an infant. In reality there was not that many options for the Stark line of succession. It would have made more sense for Benjen to marry into a Northern family, but Benjen still decided to go to the Nights Watch at a very young age. 

As have been stated above, it seems likely that Benjen might have known something about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and he perhaps felt guilty for not telling anyone about it. Benjen and Lyanna was very close, they grew up together while Ned was in the Vale.

Thus, it is also likely that Benjen has always known that Jon is not Ned's son. 

 

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Another Stark fuckup if we're to believe that R + L=J and  Lyanna went willingly and was not abducted by Rhaegar, then that was a huge fuck up as well. I know fans love her because she might be Jon's mother and she was fierce and didn't accept gender roles like Arya and think it's romantic but she went off with a married man who had kids because she thought Robert would stray? Her father and brother were killed and thousands died over this! I don't get why people who believe it was consensual think it's so romantic.

The whole situation between Lyanna and Rhaegar was incredibly stupid, and it clearly displays some incredibly bad judgment, from both parties. There really isn't any other way to describe it.  

But at the same time it is also incredibly romantic and tragic. I guess it is a situation that speaks to the fact that we are human and we make mistakes. Love is not logical, throughout the ages people have done some very stupid things in the name of love. It goes to the idea that if you are really in love, you lose your head, or your ability to think clearly. 

I do think this is also why this is the only reason any other excuse or explanation of what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar does not really make sense. The only thing that really makes sense is that they fell in love, and made a huge error in judgment, because they are human and humans make mistakes and people can do illogical things in the name of love. It is exactly the illogical nature of the act that makes it so romantic.

 

Enough with calling the Starks just dumb or stupid. The Starks have made some mistakes, but they are also being punished for their mistakes much more than many others. It is strange how people want to call them out for being dumb and failures when they are being punished or when they are suffering.  We have seen almost every single person make some silly mistakes but not everyone has to wear the same amount of the brunt of their mistakes as the Starks. We see people like Joffrey and Cercei make dumb mistake after mistake, without much punishment. We see Dany not doing such a great job of ruling in Mereen, and yet she has just gained another army while her advisors are working on her mistakes. The Starks in general does not make any more mistakes than most of the players within the game, their punishment just seems to be harder. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Boudicea

[FurryFury]

That was actually a good episode. Well done. I felt all the emotional beats, every time: Sansa throwing her pain into LF's face (and him being speechless for once), Aria having to rewatch her father's beheading while the crowd is laughing, Dany forgiving Jorah, and of course that last scene... Holy shit, Hodor. And Summer. But mostly Hodor (what can I say, I'm a cat person). That was heartbreaking.

I also have to applaud the show for streamlining the Iron Islands storyline and making it palatable (basically the opposite of what they've done with Dorne, heh). Although the Euron actor just doesn't project the menacing charisma that I expected for Euron to project. Maybe he'll win me over yet, we'll see.

[mrspidey]

So who wants to bet that Jorah will get his cure by having his arm burned by a red priest ala Victarion in the books?

The episode felt way too rushed to me, especially the Ironborn plot but I did like how Littlefinger got TOLD by Sansa. 

The Queen in the North arises. 

[Misplaced]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh and as far as the whole "Sansa never was with Ramsay, Jenye was" thing?  Who knows?  The way GRRM dilly dallies around, maybe Ramsay found out Jenye was fake and demanded and received the real Sansa at some point?  Or acquired her some other way?  That was a pretty big thing to change from the books if Sansa never ended up in his hands, unless none of it really matters anyway, and Sansa is due to die, and Ramsay is due to die as well.

Interesting question.  If neither of them have any real role at the conclusion of the books, why not do it the way D&D did?

I thought I read somewhere / somewhen that 

Spoiler

GRRM had originally planned to marry off Sansa to Ramsay, but then changed his mind and married fake Arya off to Ramsay instead (possibly because he gardened Sansa into the Vale).  I don't think I made that up?  Isn't there also speculation that Sansa's "big surprise"  in TWoW is that Harry the Heir turns out to be a mini-Ramsay?  

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, Boudicea said:

This is one area that the show has never really touched upon with Jon. Jon really has a great understanding of Northern politics in the books. I hope we do get to see a glimpse of that this season, instead of just having Jon as the action hero.

Yeah, in the books, it's Jon who advices Stannis on which Northern Lords to approach and how. He also gives Stannis strategic advice about how to take on the Boltons. Here they made it all about Sansa and Davos. Jon is just around to swing the sword and kill some walkers and Boltons. He does not even seem to have all that much dialogue. The problem with the Sansa in the North story arc is that it takes away from characters like Theon and Jon.

With Bran likely heading to the wall, I hope we get Arya heading to Westeros soon as well. Hurry up Arya! Jon needs a sister he can trust!

[NeenerNeener]

Quote

though as a general rule when somebody asks if they can say one more thing in that situation, in general your response should be “no”.

I yelled "Live, from New York, it's Saturday night!" when Littlefinger said that. And then the rest of the episode made me cry.

[mrspidey]

48 minutes ago, FurryFury said:

once), Aria having to rewatch her father's beheading while the crowd is laughing

Technically, she didn't "watch" it back then. Yoren made sure of that.  

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, ulkis said:

I don't think that Sansa doesn't trust Jon so much as she is afraid he won't trust her if she told him she met up with Baelish. If they start fighting amongst themselves I'll punch their faces through my screen gosh darn it.

I could be wrong but I think Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and is trying to protect Jon from Baleish's little schemes.  Also she might not want to tell Jon how she foolishly trusted Littlefinger.  But I would not at all be surprised if she just makes a mental note and if it looks like she doesn't get enough troops she will go direct to her cousin. I love that Sansa is a complete player this year.  Look out Cersie.. someone was paying attention.

I felt bad for Ayra but I like the idea that she will never be anything but a Stark. I think the point of this arc is for her to learn skills but also learn who she really wants to be.

Not a massive Hodor fan only because it seemed so sad that he was Bran's cartaker forever. Will he also be a white walker now?

I also think that the guy who played Theon's uncle did look like him. Good casting there... but mostly not sure I care. Unless the Grayjoys end up with the mother of dragons.

[Bill1978]

Wow, what an episode. Just wow!!

I really do like the use of Bran's visions to insert flashbacks into the show. Ever since Lost, I feel every drama wants flashbacks cause it's easier to tell background stuff without it be expositional. I always wondered how they were going to answer questions without having someone stroll onto the screen and just say it OR use silly flashbacks. But the way they are integrated into the story (at the moment) has me impressed.

I admit Hodor's origin confused me, especially with the warging appearing and disappearing while Bran was still warged in the present but not in the past. But thank you to the person who posted that comment from a YouTube link I've taking that as the best explanation as to what happened. And I will leave it at that cause if I think too much with time travel it does my head in.

I'm kinda glad that White Walkers aren't in every episode as they still freak me out and make this show way way too tense.and scary for my liking. But I think it is about time the 7 kingdoms realised what is actually coming instead of bickering amonst themselves.

I didn't even miss King's Landing this week, and may have groaned to see the previews imply that it is Kings Landing heavy next week.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, J----av said:

 Why would she take the out yet? She doesn't yet have the skills to cross people off her list and the FM are teaching her the skills she needs. OBVIOUSLY she will never be a FM, but she can't kill Cersei, The Mountain, etc... till she gets better at killing. She didn't just join them because she thought it "was cool". I don't know how anyone watching could possibly think that

I think that Arya is paying too high a price to learn the skills to be an assassin. Killing people for a bunch of religious fanatics will never end well. What if she is sent to kill Jon and/or Sansa. I don't see Jaquen letting her leave to go off to kill her enemies after she has learnt her craft. IMO, Arya is getting warning after warning that she should get out of that murdering cult before it is too late and I hope she does. She will never be "nobody." She will always be Arya Stark who has enemies to defeat.

Edited May 23, 2016 by SimoneS

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, maraleia said:

I'm sick of direwolves dying on this show.

I'm still catching up (this thread moves so fast), so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but the Vanity Fair review mentioned a theory about the direwolf deaths:

Quote

The wolves have always been part of the family’s mystical connection to their own Starkishness. George R.R. Martin himself said that after Sansa’s wolf died, the redheaded Stark girl became “a little adrift.” Sansa lost her wolf because she lied and betrayed House Stark. Robb also betrayed House Stark for his own interests when he married Talisa. So Lady and Grey Wind had to go. You can also draw a pretty clear line between Bran’s selfish actions in the episode and Summer’s death. 

Framed this way, Summer's sacrifice makes a lot of sense and seems like a fitting consequence for Bran's actions. Though, as this review also points out, it doesn't seem that Shaggydog's death fits with this pattern, as far as we know.

In another piece from last night, the same VF writer laid out a theory for why the White Walkers have languished in the north and how they'll now make their way down through Westeros. Essentially, Bran is the key to getting them past the magic that protects the realm (as he inadvertently gave them access to the cave), and thus will bring about the big battle. I think it's a compelling possibility, though it definitely makes me sad that Bran's role in the story is ultimately to bring about death and destruction. If it actually goes this way, I hope there's some sort of redemption for him before the end.

[Amers]

I have been convinced Sansa is pregnant since before the season started. It would not make much sense for a young, healthy woman to get raped every night for an undisclosed amount of time and not get pregnant. I mean, in reality she could have a health issue. But that's never been mentioned. I think this strength comes from her knowing she's going to have a child and it's her momma Bear coming out. I would love for her to get face to face with Ramsey and kill that little bastard like he did his father because she now has the heir. 

 

I also subscribe to the theory that its Bran as the old man in the tree. The whole " It's time to become me" situation. I think Bran is the big link here, I'm pretty sure everything is that kids fault in some weird time warping way, and I doubt there's a way to change that. 

 

 I also really lean towards Stannis returning before the end of the season. They have brought him up repeatedly every episode. The red woman is so sulky about it, like yes, I was wrong, with a very pathetic "woo jon". I have my own theory that she was right and he will somehow come back around. 

 

The implications of this Hodor thing just really throw a wrench into everything. It was one thing for Ned to hear his own son, but this shows that Bran can do more than just watch. I think that kid is behind a lot of stuff here. He probably somehow got the children of the forest to make the white walkers, or in some convoluted way, IS the leader of the white walkers. I always thought maybe it was Jon, that somehow he was the Night King in some twisted way, but now I'm leaning toward Bran being behind it all. I can't logically explain it though. Haha 

[Ottis]

That was a hell of a way to start an episode, with Sansa staring down Littlefinger. 

Quote

I can't believe Sansa would hang onto a Ramsey spawn. Lil' gillyflower'll cure what ails ya.

At first, that's why I thought Sansa wanted to know where Moletown was.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It was an odd line, since she did say she could feel it IN her body. I suppose it could be a reference to remembering how it felt when Ramsay was raping her, though. The not-so-subtle reminder in the same bit of dialogue that Ramsay was trying to get Sansa to bear him an heir--"he did what he liked with the rest of me as long as I could still give him an heir"--stuck out to me as a likelier red flag.

My take was definitely not pregnancy. I've got a particularly nasty scar on my ankle from a decade back that still aches whenever the weather changes or I bend it a certain way.

Given that she made a point that she specifically didn't mean "feel it in her tender heart" and that he avoided her face, my sense is that she's specifically NOT talking about remembering how it felt. Personally, I think its setting up that at some point down the line we'll get a shot of Sansa disrobing and we'll see something... scars from whips, bites, burning and/or other things... that make it clear she's going to bear the physical wounds of her time with Ramsey for the rest of her life.

That she bears them without any outward sign is a sign of just how strong she's become, but also why she'd have significant trust issues.

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

I could be wrong but I think Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and is trying to protect Jon from Baleish's little schemes.  Also she might not want to tell Jon how she foolishly trusted Littlefinger.

I think both Kit and Sophie are doing a bang up job of portraying survivors of serious trauma. Jon's uncertainty and hesitance remind me of a friend who is a disabled veteran. Its been a quarter century now since his service and injury and he still has periods where something will trigger the PTSD.

I think Sansa's lie to Jon was a similar reflexive reaction to her trauma. As bad as Ramsey was to her, I think the scars of Littlefinger's betrayal are actually the deeper ones. Having to reveal the true source of her information would have forced her to dwell on thoughts of how Littlefinger betrayed her and so, probably without even understanding her motives, used a lie to avoid having to remember those things.

Then the very next scene she's giving Jon a gift in the form of a cloak like Ned's as if nothing had happened. If she wanted Northerners to see her as the heir to Winterfell and not Jon then trying to make him look as much as possible like Ned Stark would not be the way to do it. That's the scene that to me says Sansa's lie was more about aversion of pain than some devious scheme. My hunch is that this will come up again when Jon and Sansa fail to recruit enough men from the smaller lords and we'll get a wonderfully painful scene about just how much what they've been through is still affecting them.

I, for one, am actually glad to see this development. If Jon and Sansa just went through the upcoming episodes without any significant setbacks I'd fear for their safety when the rug is pulled out from under them. But this perfectly sets up for a scene later in the season when, despite her fears and pain, Sansa will have to face Baelish again because she'll need the Vale army to win.

The person THAT does not bode well for is Littlefinger. Because if Sansa goes to see him again, she'll be ready with a double-cross of her own and there wouldn't be much that is more satisfying than seeing Littlefinger getting played by Sansa and ending up with his head on a spike (a reversal of what Littlefinger promised Cersei he'd do to Sansa in order to become Warden last season).

[Constantinople]

Depriving a prospective king's brain of oxygen while nearly drowning him to death seems like a great way to ensure rational decision making on his part.

[benteen]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Depriving a prospective king's brain of oxygen while nearly drowning him to death seems like a great way to ensure rational decision making on his part.

It would explain why the Ironborn are so damn stupid.

[jcin617]

8 hours ago, rubyred said:

I can't remember -- why did Benjen join the Nightwatch? Surely he wasn't a criminal, was he?

From what I seem to recall, it wasn't uncommon for "extra" Stark heirs to join the Nightwatch; once Ned had heirs, Benjen was superfluous from a dynastic standpoint.  Plus, it helps ensure there aren't tons of claimants down the line.   I suspect it wouldn't have been unusual if Rickon had joined once Robb had children, if it hadn't all fallen apart.

Edited May 23, 2016 by jcin617

[sumiregusa]

4 hours ago, Boudicea said:

The whole situation between Lyanna and Rhaegar was incredibly stupid, and it clearly displays some incredibly bad judgment, from both parties. There really isn't any other way to describe it.  

But at the same time it is also incredibly romantic and tragic. I guess it is a situation that speaks to the fact that we are human and we make mistakes. Love is not logical, throughout the ages people have done some very stupid things in the name of love. It goes to the idea that if you are really in love, you lose your head, or your ability to think clearly. 

I do think this is also why this is the only reason any other excuse or explanation of what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar does not really make sense. The only thing that really makes sense is that they fell in love, and made a huge error in judgment, because they are human and humans make mistakes and people can do illogical things in the name of love. It is exactly the illogical nature of the act that makes it so romantic.

This. Most compelling love stories aren't riddled with practicality and rational thinking. I truly believe a lot of stories from the past that we find to be romantic wouldn't be nearly as memorable or as enduring if the tragedy element wasn't so pronounced (i.e. Paris and Helen, Tristan and Isolde, a lot of Scandinavian lore, almost everything written by Shakespeare, etc.). 

First time poster here too! I'm too frozen by the prospect of how little D&D care about direwolves to comment on much else but I had to come and reply to this. Especially given that we were teased with the Tower of Joy and now I don't know that I trust the writers to pay it forward later on.

Edited May 23, 2016 by sumiregusa