S01.E07: Conspiracy Theories

[DXD526]

Re Clark and Darden: Funny that even a smart, no-nonsense, take-charge kind of woman like Marcia Clark would wait for the man to make the first move. And the next day, when Darden seemed to be talking about the two of them "going for it", but was actually talking about the case? The look on Clark's face. I think maybe she was a little adamant against the glove thing because she wanted to 'get back at' him a bit, but I also think she knew that it was just a bad idea. 

[Ina123]

Those of you who are impressed with Sterling K. Brown's performance should binge watch Army Wives. He was wonderful in it. Yes, he was one of the "wives". LOL. You have to see it to understand. Good show all round but he's just as good in Army Wives as the OJ show.

[MrsChappy]

OMG! I knew I recognized him from somewhere. Couldn't place him. Roland, right?

[lizzy07]

 

And the dude playing Darden is HOT. That is all.

 

Cosign!

[psychoticstate]

I'm 5'10" and have small hands but I still have to wear size xlarge gloves. Just because Nichole bought OJ xlarge gloves does not mean that they fit him. Being a football player I would think that he might need an XX Large size to fit his hands.

The person that I feel sorry for from this case who really had nothing to do with it at all is Kim's son. He has been the subjected to shrines in his house dedicated to Ron and constant media crapola from grampy and mommy. Geez let it go already and let the poor kid live some semblance of a normal life. If Ron had been killed in war or by an unknown would they have these shrines set up for him? I doubt It. The poor kid.

This is for Marcia and Chris.

 

But Ron didn't die fighting for his country in combat, or in the line of duty or even in a car accident.  He was intentionally and brutally murdered by Simpson, who showed no remorse and in fact mocked Ron and his family and was acquitted.  I can't imagine the pain and burn of all that.  So I'm not going to judge the Goldmans for keeping pictures or a shrine or anything else and I certainly would never tell someone that lost their child to get over it already.

 

Brilliant or not, what galls me about the "Dream Team" (and most of the defense attorneys in the high-profile cases where the defendant is most likely guilty thanks to DNA, their ridiculous defenses, etc.) is that the trial becomes a game, to be won at any cost. It's disgusting. Both Cochran and Dershowitz couldn't shut up about how insurmountable the evidence against Simpson was to anyone who put a mic in front of them...until they were hired by Simpson. It is intellectually dishonest, at best. At worst - I cannot find words to describe the vileness they embody, yet they have no shame. Robert Shapiro should be spat upon for the rest of his life.

 

Trial law is somewhat like a game, with the person making the best moves "winning."  That said, what angered me in this episode was Johnnie telling reporters to keep in mind two people that had been murdered when his personal life was up for grabs but during the trial itself, he seemed to be doing anything and everything to divert the jury's attention away from the murder victims. 

 

I think the press probably did give him more awe and respect than he deserved.  Sure, he was a good attorney but he was doing what most defense attorneys would do.  For the record, I don't think any of the so-called "Dream Team" were all that great.   Their arguments were fairly weak and some were unfounded.   They got this reverence because of the reputations that proceeded them and their hefty price tags (most people assumed that since Simpson could afford the very best, this group must be the very best.)  They did excel, Cochran in particular, at showmanship and presentation.  If there was any "Dream Team" I give it to Ito and the jury, who were equally starstruck by anything and everything Simpson and defense-wise.

 

This was the hardest episode for me to watch so far - - the tensions between Marcia and Chris, Simpson's smug ass while fake trying on the gloves that were coated in Nicole's blood, Darden's crushing response to it and his painful voice mail to Fred Goldman and the agony Robert Kardashian was clearly in.

 

I like Cuba Gooding, Jr. but while I'm watching this I know that I'm watching Cuba playing Simpson.  With the others, I forget I'm watching actors portraying these real people.  Travolta and Vance are absolutely nailing their counterparts; Paulson and Brown ARE Clark and Darden; David Schwimmer is the real revelation to me.  I hadn't thought much of him as an actor prior to this but damn if he isn't bringing me to tears and commanding the room.

 

The bar was set low for me when this show started but they have exceeded my expectations by far.  This show is just damn good.  There better be Emmys all around.

 

BTW, Sterling K. Brown IS awesome and for those who wonder if the real Chris Darden had as much charisma as Brown is putting forth, I would say yes.  I mentioned in another thread that I met Darden at a book signing when his book was released.  While I thought he was nice looking on the tv, I found him much more attractive in person.  He has a very commanding, yet gentle, presence, if that makes sense.  He came across friendly, kind and very sexy, in my opinion.

[Ina123]

OMG! I knew I recognized him from somewhere. Couldn't place him. Roland, right?

Yes. Roland.

[RedheadZombie]

Yep. I can't understand why out of EVERYONE in the world they chose to cast Cuba?! He's got zero charisma.

 

That's not necessarily true.  He stole Jerry Maguire from Tom Cruise in his prime.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFrag8ll85w

I wonder if he was cast because of this scene:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVuXKypPs0

 

He said that in his overly dramatic closing argument.

 

Cochrane also did this:  Which I felt was so idiotic.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=johnny+cochrane+in+stocking+cap&view=detailv2&id=9923EEE423EC3CEC31AC64A53DBCA2C8A3402506&selectedindex=6&ccid=uwlfpfe0&simid=608002323043059534&thid=OIP.Mbb095fa5f7b456c049476d2ef5b80ea9o0&mode=overlay&first=1

[Kromm]

That's not necessarily true.  He stole Jerry Maguire from Tom Cruise in his prime

And then did "Snow Dogs" and "Boat Trip".

[helenamonster]

I find the disagreements between the defense team behind closed doors to be fascinating. It worked out in the end, but a lot of them seemed to be making their personal reputations a priority over a vigorous defense of their client, especially Shapiro. I didn't realize the relationship he'd previously had with the DA's office and the LAPD, but it bleeds all over his interactions with the other attorneys. I'm glad this show has taken advantage of the opportunity to explore that, it adds so much more to things.

 

If the verdict had turned out the other way, I feel like that would be a huge point of discussion in these threads: how the Dream Team allowed their defense of their own personal reputations to take precedence over their defense of OJ. I'm not saying they were lucky to get an acquittal, they were clearly very skilled attorneys, but I think that point would have been examined more if they'd lost.

[RedheadZombie]

And then did "Snow Dogs" and "Boat Trip".

Curse of the Oscar? What a shame to peak at such a young age.

[dubbel zout]

More like bad career advice and/or hubris; apparently he passed on roles in movies like Amistad.

[Isabella15]

BTW, Sterling K. Brown IS awesome and for those who wonder if the real Chris Darden had as much charisma as Brown is putting forth, I would say yes.  I mentioned in another thread that I met Darden at a book signing when his book was released.  While I thought he was nice looking on the tv, I found him much more attractive in person.  He has a very commanding, yet gentle, presence, if that makes sense.  He came across friendly, kind and very sexy, in my opinion.

Just adding a personal opinion for what it's worth (approx 2 one-cent coins):  I went to a couple of talks that Chris Darden did for local writer's groups.  (maybe 5+ years ago).  Outstanding presentations.   It was clear he still felt very strongly about the Simpson outcome and had been deeply affected by it.  He thought the defense threw ethics out the window because they wanted to win at any cost. He did have the strongest criticisms for Judge Ito, from his rulings to his courtroom behavior to his starry-eyed worship of Hollywood celebs.  (And I think he said it was Ito who told OJ to put on latex gloves for the demonstration.)

 

He was very patient with all of our questions, and spoke in detail, without notes, on the Simpson trial.  When asked about Fuhrman, Darden simply said he was a very good, meticulous detective, and he had no doubts at all about the quality of his work.  A couple of people mentioned that he seemed exactly the same in person as he appeared on TV.  Darden laughed and said, I don't know if that's good or bad!   Everyone was very taken with him.  It's not often when the first descriptors about a lawyer are integrity and sincerity, but that was my impression of Chris Darden.  (And I agree that Sterling Brown is doing a wonderful job.  Maybe there should be an Ensemble Acting Award. )

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yes, Cuba passed on both Amistad and Ali.  Such a damn shame.  Here's a great recent interview with him about his career, and the show.  http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/cuba-gooding-jr-in-conversation.html

 

I maintain that he was fucking fantastic in Jerry Maguire.  I just rewatched it for probably the 5th, 6th time. 

 

Cuba doesn't really bother me here, at all.  Though I completely and totally get the complaints that viewers see Cuba, and not O.J.

 

Now I seem to be in the minority where I really can't with Travolta in this role.  I thought this was a mainstream opinion because Fallon was also mocking his portrayal.  Please know that I remember nothing of Shapiro and don't know his affectations.  So maybe Travolta really is doing a good job in acting as Shapiro himself, but I can't with the actual acting.  I find it so forced and cheesy.  He's also always walking around with this certain posture -- as if you can see him always consciously telling himself, okay -- stand straighter, chin up.  I think it IS a deliberate acting choice, but was Shapiro like that at all?

 

Schwimmer(?sp, not a Friends fan here) was also stellar with "I keep going over it over and over again...there is just no other answer..."

 

I had to copy this quote, I found it so cute.  You said it so plainly without judgement, it's hilarious.  I AM a huge Friends fan and usually when people mention the show, they ALSO feel the need to tell you what a shitty show they think it is, so thank you.

 

Anyway, yes, David Schwimmer.  I admit that the character of Ross is so deep in my consciousness (and I hated all the gratuitous Kim stuff - MY OPINION) that for the first few episodes it was really hard for me to dive in.  But this episode was so great for Schwimmer and Kardashian is getting more and more compelling as time goes on.  

 

For me, Travolta is the weak link.  Cuba is just kind of there, but I'm fine with it.  I honestly really like Cuba as an actor (how could I not - after Rod Tidwell, after that Oscar speech)  and want him to do well in life and his career.  I want to blame casting instead.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[dubbel zout]

I love Travolta's hamminess. I think it really works here. But I totally understand the performance isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[Umbelina]

Ha.

 

Shapiro was forced and cheesy, and yes, his posture was exactly like Travolta's in this.  He came across as a pompous windbag, overly concerned with his image, and something of a starfucker as well, loved being close to, and longed to be one of the famous.  He was the kind of guy who loved the sound of his own voice too.

 

ETA

Shapiro was shorter than Travolta, maybe that's one reason he always stood up so straight, chin out.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Umbelina

[psychoticstate]

Ms. Blue Jay, I will co-sign 100% that Cuba was fucking fantastic in Jerry Maguire.  Rod Tidwell was somewhat of an OJ Simpson clone, without the wife beating and murder.  It's the attitude that he had down perfectly and which would have worked here.  I'm not sure if that's due to the director or a choice Cuba made.  I think his sad sack attitude pre-"I am 100% not guilty" was accurate; but after that, he should be playing Simpson like Tidwell - - bigger than life and very charismatic. 

 

I did wonder if Travolta was going to be over the top after the first episode but I think he's capturing Shapiro exactly right.  The defense team was a constant battle of egos and Shapiro wasn't nearly as slick as Cochran. 

[CeeBeeGee]

From a 1995 article in People Magazine:

 

[Nicole's] family has been scrupulous about not discussing the murders or poisoning Justin and Sydney against O.J. "We don't talk about Daddy being in jail," Nicole's sister Tanya Brown told PEOPLE on the eve of the verdict. "We just play jungle gym." At their private school, meanwhile, mention of the case has also been forbidden. Even the managers of Pavilions Place, their local supermarket, place cardboard over magazines that feature Simpson on the cover. Indeed, every effort has been made to keep the children's lives normal: Justin has taken karate lessons, and Sydney has continued with her dance classes.

 

But for father and children, some tough adjustments lie ahead. According to family friend Sheila Weller, author of Raging Heart, Simpson had originally explained his long absence by telling Sydney that he was away helping the police. But the little girl learned from a classmate that Simpson was in jail and for three months refused to talk to him—"until he leveled with her," says Weller. Then last spring, adds Weller, "she asked her grandmother if he was in jail because he was accused of killing her mother." After consulting a psychiatrist, the family finally told her about the case.

 

Wow. The Brown family has incredible decency and integrity. I can't even imagine trying to maintain that balance of keeping the kids sane and feeling safe and cared for, and to some extent in a bubble, while the man who slaughtered their mother is in prison, and all you want to do is break down. F*** OJ Simpson. Can you imagine how that conversation with Sidney must've gone? "Yeah, I'm trying to help the police [washes blood off hands furiously] find the bad person who killed Mommy [eye twitches uncontrollably]." How could you lie to your daughter's face like that?

 

I would love to know how Justin and Sidney think of their father now (although I certainly hope they never share that information unless they wish to--that is, I don't want the press to hound them or a friend to betray them).

 

People on that jury arguably weren't looking dispassionately at evidence. They likely qualified as "already made their mind up". 

 

Yup.

 

If there was any "Dream Team" I give it to Ito and the jury, who were equally starstruck by anything and everything Simpson and defense-wise.

 

 

 

This. 

[Aethera]

Folks, let's take discussion of casting/actors that isn't episode-specific to this thread, and discussion of the real life players outside of episode context to this thread, please!

[callmebetty]

Damn, my Dvr didn't tape this episode and there are no replays scheduled. Can someone send me in the right direction to watch this episode? I have Directv. Thanks in advance.

[Umbelina]

They usually do a replay the following week.  2 new episode, then last weeks.  http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/the-people-v-oj-simpson-american-crime-story/episodes I think you can watch on FX.com after you register.

[helenamonster]

If you have an iPhone (or maybe any smartphone, idk, I have an iPhone) you can download the FX Now app and watch it there. You might have to log in via your cable provider.

Edited March 18, 2016 by helenamonster

[7isBlue]

But Ron didn't die fighting for his country in combat, or in the line of duty or even in a car accident.  He was intentionally and brutally murdered by Simpson, who showed no remorse and in fact mocked Ron and his family and was acquitted.  I can't imagine the pain and burn of all that.  So I'm not going to judge the Goldmans for keeping pictures or a shrine or anything else and I certainly would never tell someone that lost their child to get over it already.

 

Trial law is somewhat like a game, with the person making the best moves "winning."  That said, what angered me in this episode was Johnnie telling reporters to keep in mind two people that had been murdered when his personal life was up for grabs but during the trial itself, he seemed to be doing anything and everything to divert the jury's attention away from the murder victims. 

 

I think the press probably did give him more awe and respect than he deserved.  Sure, he was a good attorney but he was doing what most defense attorneys would do.  For the record, I don't think any of the so-called "Dream Team" were all that great.   Their arguments were fairly weak and some were unfounded.   They got this reverence because of the reputations that proceeded them and their hefty price tags (most people assumed that since Simpson could afford the very best, this group must be the very best.)  They did excel, Cochran in particular, at showmanship and presentation.  If there was any "Dream Team" I give it to Ito and the jury, who were equally starstruck by anything and everything Simpson and defense-wise.

 

This was the hardest episode for me to watch so far - - the tensions between Marcia and Chris, Simpson's smug ass while fake trying on the gloves that were coated in Nicole's blood, Darden's crushing response to it and his painful voice mail to Fred Goldman and the agony Robert Kardashian was clearly in.

 

I like Cuba Gooding, Jr. but while I'm watching this I know that I'm watching Cuba playing Simpson.  With the others, I forget I'm watching actors portraying these real people.  Travolta and Vance are absolutely nailing their counterparts; Paulson and Brown ARE Clark and Darden; David Schwimmer is the real revelation to me.  I hadn't thought much of him as an actor prior to this but damn if he isn't bringing me to tears and commanding the room.

 

The bar was set low for me when this show started but they have exceeded my expectations by far.  This show is just damn good.  There better be Emmys all around.

 

BTW, Sterling K. Brown IS awesome and for those who wonder if the real Chris Darden had as much charisma as Brown is putting forth, I would say yes.  I mentioned in another thread that I met Darden at a book signing when his book was released.  While I thought he was nice looking on the tv, I found him much more attractive in person.  He has a very commanding, yet gentle, presence, if that makes sense.  He came across friendly, kind and very sexy, in my opinion.

This was the hardest episode to watch so far for me, too (as you might have guessed from my reaction). I understand the adversarial system we have, but the disingenuousness and cynicism of these defense lawyers, in particular, are so distasteful. Allan Dershowitz said that one must have a strong stomach to be a defense attorney. That is no lie.

[scrb]

Darden got owned again (first time was his exchange about the use of the n word in court).

Did the people involved verify that sidebar, that Cochran pretended to be against the glove demonstration and then when Darden requested it, Cochran had no objections?

Then Cochran and Shapiro gave each other fives under the table?

And Shapiro was allowed to actually try out the gloves first during recess?

Why weren't the gloves under sealed bags and still have blood residue on them?

[biakbiak]

Darden got owned again (first time was his exchange about the use of the n word in court).

Did the people involved verify that sidebar, that Cochran pretended to be against the glove demonstration and then when Darden requested it, Cochran had no objections?

Then Cochran and Shapiro gave each other fives under the table?

And Shapiro was allowed to actually try out the gloves first during recess?

Why weren't the gloves under sealed bags and still have blood residue on them?

Both Shapiro and Cochran tried on the gloves.

[Superpole2000]

Sorry...off topic alert! But I understand what you mean. When I saw Titanic, there were people in the theater who gasped when the ship hit the iceberg!

SPOILER ALERT! Come on!

 

Trying on gloves was dumb because the fact that they fit (if they did fit) wouldn't prove a damn thing. Then again, logic wasn't what was going to persuade the jury anyway, and perhaps a visual of OJ wearing the killers' gloves would have had more impact than DNA and refuting implausible and outlandish conspiracy claims.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Superpole2000

[Crs97]

I thought the miniseries did a disservice to the prosecution.  For a show that has been so sympathetic to Marcia, they made her look petulant this time.  Chris didn't make a pass; she should have kissed him if she wanted something to happen.  Then suddenly she refuses to speak to him and, when she does, treats him like an underling instead of a trusted colleague.  I feel like the amped-up drama did a huge disservice to the facts.  It should have been clear that Judge Ito required the latex gloves.  Or did he encourage having OJ try on the original gloves to begin with?  And I also thought they showed Darden touching the gloves as he examined the detective.  Now with OJ we see him putting on latex gloves?  The show really muddied the facts for their narrative on this one.

[hoodooznoodooz]

After Darden announced that he wanted OJ to try on the gloves, could Clark have said, "May we have a moment, your honor?" to take Darden aside and demand that he drop it?

[SoSueMe]

Yep. I can't understand why out of EVERYONE in the world they chose to cast Cuba?! He's got zero charisma. OJ was tall, dark and handsome. He was charismatic and that's why so many people loved him. Cuba just looks goofy, and he's got this Michael Jackson voice going on. He's not a very good actor, and it's sad to me that every time he's on screen I am completely taken out of the immersion and remember, "Oh, that's Cuba Gooding Jr." in an otherwise stellar cast.

 

And the dude playing Darden is HOT. That is all.

Agreed. Hmmm, who would I have cast as OJ? Maybe Denzel?

[Umbelina]

Darden WAS an underling!  There is absolutely nothing wrong with Marcia treating him as one, when he was floating the idea of doing something so completely idiotic, AND not dropping it, AND about to put their case in the hand of the defendant, literally, an actor no less!  

 

If that were two men sitting there, this would not be an issue.  Yes, they were friends, I've been friends with people who work for me as well, but at work, if I said something, was emphatic about something, I expected my instructions to be followed.  Personal doesn't trump your job.

 

I mean, I love Chris Darden, but that was bone-headed and stupid.  Did it lose them the case?  No, that case was lost the moment they seated the jury, but DAMN!  He got into a dick measuring contest with the flashy defense team.  Stupid Stupid Stupid.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[kassa]

The glove thing was played dramatically on the show the way people thought it unfolded in real time (they should never have had him try on the glove!), but Clark insists she wasn't blindsided and that they ALWAYS intended to have OJ try on a new identical pair of gloves. Ito was the one who told OJ to put on the surgical gloves and then try on the bloody evidence gloves.

 

 

The gloves were going to be tried on no matter what -- the defense would have had him do the exact same thing.  They just got additional bang for their buck by maneuvering the prosecution into doing it, which looked even worse.  

 

So Darden got a bad edit in this episode for the glove thing, which coincides with the popular reaction at the time (that he had been played).  But it may not have been as cut and dried as that.

[Umbelina]

With the new gloves that Marcia had PLANNED to have OJ try on, there would have be zero need for the surgical gloves though, and also no shrinkage issues.

 

Darden, I love the guy, but he did fuck up.

[psychoticstate]

After Darden announced that he wanted OJ to try on the gloves, could Clark have said, "May we have a moment, your honor?" to take Darden aside and demand that he drop it?

 

Yes, she could have.  Doing so would certainly have demeaned Darden in the public's eye though and demonstrated a potential rift in the prosecution.   Not to mention that it could have planted a seed in the jurors' minds as to wondering why the prosecution wanted Simpson to try on the gloves and then did not.  (Assuming the jury had not already decided on guilt or innocence.)  It would have been a dream for the defense though who certainly might have brought up why the prosecution wavered on having him try on the gloves.

 

It is interesting that Ito was the one who decided that Simpson try on THE gloves.  I wonder if the prosecution made an objection to that.  If not, they certainly should have, citing that THE gloves were no longer true to size due to the shrinkage and the fit (or unfit) would be irrelevant, necessitating the duplicate untainted gloves.

[FozzyBear]

The glove thing was played dramatically on the show the way people thought it unfolded in real time (they should never have had him try on the glove!), but Clark insists she wasn't blindsided and that they ALWAYS intended to have OJ try on a new identical pair of gloves. Ito was the one who told OJ to put on the surgical gloves and then try on the bloody evidence gloves.

The gloves were going to be tried on no matter what -- the defense would have had him do the exact same thing. They just got additional bang for their buck by maneuvering the prosecution into doing it, which looked even worse.

So Darden got a bad edit in this episode for the glove thing, which coincides with the popular reaction at the time (that he had been played). But it may not have been as cut and dried as that.

The gloves were one of many instances when the OJ trial became not just an interesting trial, but a commentary on the very moment in history we were living. The 1990s were a huge decade of transition for entertainment and communications. The way technology and the media looked and worked in 1989 would be hugely different then what would emerge in 2000. The OJ trial, being in the middle of the decade, served as a sort of marker point for a lot of it. One of those things was news media starting to adjust to the 24 Hour News Cycle we're all used to now. It wasn't a completely new concept, but OJ was one of the earlier events to get that type of "all day, every day, every little thing" coverage. As many people have pointed out, from a legal prespective the glove isn't really a huge deal. If the trial had happened even 5 years earlier most of the public would have read about it in the paper or heard about it on TV with commentary explaining what if any significance it had. Instead, all of America watched as it happened. While it didn't prove much, it looked dramatic and that's what people remember.

If you didn't live through it, it's hard to describe just how exhaustive the OJ coverage was. It was always on and seemed to go on forever. And honestly, most of it was really boring. And then there was stuff like the glove or Furhman and suddenly it was exciting again so people would analyze these really minor points to death, just because we'd all suffered through never ending DNA testimony or whatever. The whole thing was sort of crazy.

[kassa]

If you didn't live through it, it's hard to describe just how exhaustive the OJ coverage was. It was always on and seemed to go on forever.

 

My father was dying during that period, and I just checked the dates -- the trial started about six weeks before his cancer came back, and the verdict came in a couple of weeks before his death, nine months later.  He spent that Spring and Summer absorbed in it, still working and able bodied for the first few months, then retiring and gradually declining.  Given his weird waking/sleeping schedule and need to be entertained, the 24/7 coverage was actually a blessing for somebody who was bedridden to get caught up in what the rest of the world was talking about.  He knew ALL the details because he actually could watch the trial all day while the rest of us were at work :) 

 

By the time I told him the verdict he was out of it enough that I don't know that it really registered -- certainly not enough for him to really acknowledge it with more than a nod or discuss it.  I felt bad about that because he had invested so much for so long only to be cheated of experiencing the verdict.  Except given the verdict  I also was kind of glad. 

 

Another difference then from now is there were many fewer channels.  I'm not sure any news networks other than CNN existed -- did they?  The regular networks and court tv went round the clock.  

[RedheadZombie]

I thought it odd that Marcia was kept out of the sidebar discussion prior to the glove debacle. I remember the sidebars were so excessive, it was a punchline on Ellen's sitcom. And I thought I remembered more than one prosecutor at a time attending them.

[BW Manilowe]

Just adding a personal opinion for what it's worth (approx 2 one-cent coins): I went to a couple of talks that Chris Darden did for local writer's groups. (maybe 5+ years ago). Outstanding presentations. It was clear he still felt very strongly about the Simpson outcome and had been deeply affected by it. He thought the defense threw ethics out the window because they wanted to win at any cost. He did have the strongest criticisms for Judge Ito, from his rulings to his courtroom behavior to his starry-eyed worship of Hollywood celebs. (And I think he said it was Ito who told OJ to put on latex gloves for the demonstration.)

He was very patient with all of our questions, and spoke in detail, without notes, on the Simpson trial. When asked about Fuhrman, Darden simply said he was a very good, meticulous detective, and he had no doubts at all about the quality of his work. A couple of people mentioned that he seemed exactly the same in person as he appeared on TV. Darden laughed and said, I don't know if that's good or bad! Everyone was very taken with him. It's not often when the first descriptors about a lawyer are integrity and sincerity, but that was my impression of Chris Darden. (And I agree that Sterling Brown is doing a wonderful job. Maybe there should be an Ensemble Acting Award. )

There is an Ensemble Acting Award, at the SAG Awards. It's in lieu/the equivalent of "Best Picture" at the Oscars & the Best Show in 1 or more genres at the Emmys. The SAG Awards honor the casts of the programs instead of the programs themselves. So, if there's a Mini/Limited Series category, the show's cast could/should be up.

[Lemontree23]

Can't believe there are only three episodes left!

I posted on Facebook that when this show is over, my life is over. I am enjoying it so much.

[BigDfromLA]

Cuba Gooding's best role was in Boyz N the Hood.

 

There could be 100 legitimate reasons why the gloves didn't fit after all the time between the murders and the trial. It was a moronic idea to have Simpson try them on. Part of it is that the jury was the biggest collection of idiots ever put together. Like stupid children, they have to be wowed/entertained, as opposed to being bored by the facts. That too is on the prosecution. They agreed to this collection of jurors, which I think is the main reason they lost the case.

[Dust Bunny]

 

David Schwimmer is the real revelation to me.  I hadn't thought much of him as an actor prior to this but damn if he isn't bringing me to tears and commanding the room.

 

Schwimmer was also in "Band of Brothers" on HBO. He played Captain Sobel who was, basically, a real jerk. Yet, the hard-core discipline and training Sobel put Easy Company through conditioned them to be such a top-notch company in WWII. And everyone's mutual loathing of Sobel helped make them such a cohesive group. Outside of a couple later scenes, Schwimmer is only in the first episode, "Currahee". He's great. (15 years later, it's quite a thing to see him yell at a 2001 Damian Lewis. Such an amazing cast.) It was the first time I realized Schwimmer could act outside of a multi-cam sitcom. He's even better in this show. I hope he gets more opportunities now.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Mystical chick]

 

That said, and it may just be me, but I got the sense that Marcia shut Darden down about making OJ wear the gloves as a way...not to get him back exactly, but that the fact that he didn't kiss her, had something to do with it. And if it didn't, just how they interacted, I sensed some tension, because she wanted him to kiss her and she was disappointed and then upset that he didn't? I don't know. It's how that scene played for me.

 

 

 

That's how I read it, too. Especially when he came by her desk that next day and said they needed to do something big, the look on her face was sheer joyful anticipation and when he said it was about the case, her face changed so fast - like it hardened because she had her hopes up and they were dashed. I think she made the right call on the gloves but the way she presented it to him had a tinge of pissiness to it (and disappointment). 

[Anela]

That scene in the hallway... I wanted them to go for it. I guess I'm another Sterling Sweetie. ;) I also liked Marcia discrediting the assumption put forth about the police framing OJ.

Loved Johnny Cochran's history coming out. 

 

I put off watching this, because it's getting me down. The gloves. And those a-holes gleefully exchanging hand slaps. Ugh.

[sereion]

Ohhh Chris, I wish you'd called Bailey's bluff; you played right into the defense's hands.  I didn't think I'd react so strongly to the glove scene, but I was at the edge of my seat the entire time. Maybe because I remember watching most of the actual trial. As soon has he OJ struggled to put the glove on,  I knew he was going to be acquitted.  Sure enough....

 

To think, that I actually rooted for the defense back then, now that I'm getting inside story from this show, I sympathize with both Darden and Clark; they may have dropped the ball a few times, but they were up against a group of legal juggernauts who wanted win at any cost. The defense was always two steps ahead of them.  And the media scrutiny against them was just awful. 

Had I known what I do now, I would've definitely give the "Dream Team" the side eye. I will admit, if Johnnie was still around, I would definitely hire him as my attorney--the man was an incredible attorney. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Schwimmer was also in "Band of Brothers" on HBO. He played Captain Sobel who was, basically, a real jerk. Yet, the hard-core discipline and training Sobel put Easy Company through conditioned them to be such a top-notch company in WWII. And everyone's mutual loathing of Sobel helped make them such a cohesive group. Outside of a couple later scenes, Schwimmer is only in the first episode, "Currahee". He's great. (15 years later, it's quite a thing to see him yell at a 2001 Damian Lewis. Such an amazing cast.) It was the first time I realized Schwimmer could act outside of a multi-cam sitcom. He's even better in this show. I hope he gets more opportunities now.

 

Schwimmer also plays "himself", but as a real jerk, in Season 4 of Curb Your Enthusiasm.  Very different from Ross.

[whiporee]

 

now that I'm getting inside story from this show, I sympathize with both Darden and Clark;

 

I'm not sure how much inside story you're getting. You're getting a 20-years-later psuedo documentary based on a book written by someone who has said he believes Simpson to be guilty. There has not been a single image in this show so far to show the defense doing anything positive, and you're getting intentional and deliberate attempts to show the poor, poor prosecutors in the best possible light. The closest thing they've show to the prosecution doing anything bad was a) Clark not understanding the racial aspects of the case and b) Darden being bullied into having Simpson wear the gloves, and even that mis-step was shown as the result of defense team shenanigans. They didn't show Dennis Fung having to admit that the crime scene was bungled -- from what I can tell now, they aren't going to even show Furhman taking the Fifth.

 

The only insight you're getting from the defense team in this is that they were either a) mopey enablers like Kardashian or b) opportunistic schemers. And even Simpson himself isn't shown as anything other than a possibly deranged former football star who's unable to add anything to the argument. 

 

Based on the previews for this week, they are making the case that this whole thing was jury nulification, which is a very popular belief. But I don't think there's a lot of "inside" being told here -- it just looks that way because it's been really long. But it's no less biased towards its outcome or point of view than a run-of-the-mill Law&Order

Edited March 20, 2016 by whiporee

[Marsupial]

I was not sure I'd be able to watch this show because I thought it would be too awful to relive the whole saga...but the only part I truly could not watch, because it was just too vivid, was the glove scene. It's the only scene I had to fast-forward through. That was the defining moment, not only of the defense and O.J.'s duplicity, but of the prosecution's rank incompetence.

[VanillaBeanne]

I'm not sure how much inside story you're getting. You're getting a 20-years-later psuedo documentary based on a book written by someone who has said he believes Simpson to be guilty. There has not been a single image in this show so far to show the defense doing anything positive, and you're getting intentional and deliberate attempts to show the poor, poor prosecutors in the best possible light. The closest thing they've show to the prosecution doing anything bad was a) Clark not understanding the racial aspects of the case and b) Darden being bullied into having Simpson wear the gloves, and even that mis-step was shown as the result of defense team shenanigans. They didn't show Dennis Fung having to admit that the crime scene was bungled -- from what I can tell now, they aren't going to even show Furhman taking the Fifth.

The only insight you're getting from the defense team in this is that they were either a) mopey enablers like Kardashian or b) opportunistic schemers. And even Simpson himself isn't shown as anything other than a possibly deranged former football star who's unable to add anything to the argument.

Based on the previews for this week, they are making the case that this whole thing was jury nulification, which is a very popular belief. But I don't think there's a lot of "inside" being told here -- it just looks that way because it's been really long. But it's no less biased towards its outcome or point of view than a run-of-the-mill Law&Order

I agree with much of your posts, but I don't agree that the show has been pro-prosecution and anti-defense. While I think Paulson and Brown characters are more like able than their real life counterparts, the show has clearly shown their mistakes. And I think that Cochran comes off pretty good on the show. I think they show him as truly being distrustful of the LAPD - the race card was not just a ploy to him. And the domestic abuse allegations/mistress stuff happened so I think they had to show it. Shapiro is the only attorney who gets an unflattering portrayal, in my opinion.

Also, I do think they are going to show the blood evidence mistakes. I read an article over a month ago where the show runners mentioned how difficult it was to condense weeks and weeks of forensic testimony into one episode. I'm reminded of that saying about having a gun in the first act of a play... I don't think they would have had that scene in the third episode with scheck clearly explaining that they weren't going to argue that the blood was not OJs but that the blood evidence was collected in an unreliable way without following up on that. Also, no way they are done with Fuhrman. They still need to show the Ito wife conflict that they set up in the second episode when she signed the no conflict form. Plus the Fuhrman fifth pleading that happened later in the trial. I can't believe they would not show that. After the glove and the verdict, it was the most shocking moment of the trial.

Edited March 21, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[Ms Blue Jay]

Cochran is coming off as incredibly shrewd (IMO).  I'm amazed by him (obviously, personally conflicted about this, but still).  Clark is coming off as unprepared, naive, bullheaded, singleminded (yet also sympathetic).

Edited March 21, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[ganesh]

I didn't realize the glove scene would happen so soon. I seem to remember a ton of witnesses before that. I thought by the time the gloves happened that it was more of a long shot. Fuhrman and Fung had already been destroyed by the defense. But I'm not clear on the timeline.

 

Though I completely and totally get the complaints that viewers see Cuba, and not O.J.

 

The show, however, is clearly, to me, putting OJ in the background. As it was in the case for real. Excepting the gloves, OJ had nothing to do with his own verdict. What I like about the show, is that they all know he did it. The burden isn't on them,

[Kromm]

I'm not sure how much inside story you're getting. You're getting a 20-years-later psuedo documentary based on a book written by someone who has said he believes Simpson to be guilty. There has not been a single image in this show so far to show the defense doing anything positive, and you're getting intentional and deliberate attempts to show the poor, poor prosecutors in the best possible light. The closest thing they've show to the prosecution doing anything bad was a) Clark not understanding the racial aspects of the case and b) Darden being bullied into having Simpson wear the gloves, and even that mis-step was shown as the result of defense team shenanigans. They didn't show Dennis Fung having to admit that the crime scene was bungled -- from what I can tell now, they aren't going to even show Furhman taking the Fifth.

 

The only insight you're getting from the defense team in this is that they were either a) mopey enablers like Kardashian or b) opportunistic schemers. And even Simpson himself isn't shown as anything other than a possibly deranged former football star who's unable to add anything to the argument. 

 

Based on the previews for this week, they are making the case that this whole thing was jury nulification, which is a very popular belief. But I don't think there's a lot of "inside" being told here -- it just looks that way because it's been really long. But it's no less biased towards its outcome or point of view than a run-of-the-mill Law&Order

It's true this isn't the inside story. But I'd say this isn't because it's spinning some fantasy that Simpson is guilty or that the defense were all scum. It's not the inside story because it has little to no corroboration for virtually every "insider" scene we've seen for anyone, on either the defense or prosecution side (not to mention the various other personages running around the story). It's spinning a good coherent tale, it's true, but the majority of it is pure speculation based on either broad strokes of things people have guessed, vague stories that were told but not substantiated, single lines in people's books being expanded to whole scenes that extrapolate the hell of out things, etc.

[reggiejax]

Trying on gloves was dumb because the fact that they fit (if they did fit) wouldn't prove a damn thing.

 

This is something most people never even bring up. The gloves were not custom made, they were sold in general sizes, I believe the gloves in question were XL. I could have tried them on, and they might have fit, or not fit, as well as they did OJ. Granted, I was not on trial, but the point remains, it is a pair of gloves that are sold to fit a wide range of people. In the end, the value to the prosecution was simply not that great. But the damage ended up being devastating.

 

On another note, I have to side with the minority here and say I couldn't give a shit about Marcia Clark's and Christopher Darden's G-rated sexcapades.