S01.E08: Night Of The Hawk

[scarynikki12]

The team tracks Savage to a small town in Oregon during the 1950s. Upon arrival, they discover there have been a recent string of murders and they suspect Savage is involved.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-u8O3Aomc0

[scarynikki12]

So glad they fixed Jax. Those teeth were not cool.

I love Sara's smile. Hopefully she'll find someone who can inspire it permanently.

Snart, like Mick, plays off Jax well. More of them please.

Splitting the team has amazing potential. Sucks we have to wait three weeks.

 

Eta: Math is not my friend.

[bettername2come]

Seemed weird that Jax could be turned into a bird monster when he's already a metahuman, but whatever. Loved the ending. And that they acknowledged why they don't Firestorm in the ship. Sara and Stein is a great teamup, as is Snart and Stein. Actually, I've enjoyed all the teams so far. 

[Trini]

I didn't like this one. The only things of significance happened in the last few minutes. We still don't know what happened to Mick.

 

But the team continues to be the Worst Time Travelers EVER, so at least that's consistent.

[HighwayFlower]

Kendra didn't annoy me!

Sara was awesome as usual. I just wasn't crazy about mutant bird alien plot.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Would a nurse in Oregon in 1958 REALLY know what a ninja was ?

 

Kendra really is the worst -- Vandal had her completely bamboozled that he didn't know who she was.  She looks exactly the same as she did 4000 years ago, why wouldn't he know who she was ?

[Delphi]

I actually didn't mind this. I don't mind the slow episodes that actually explore the characters. And this did. We got to learn a bit about the characters. Plus Kendra was finally neat. I enjoyed her comments about finding a waitress.

[caci]

This episode came across as a "very special" episode. They had to deal with racism, sexism, bigotry, etc. The trouble was everything was watered down with too much going on and nothing really worked. I didn't care about any story. It wasn't a bad episode, just kind of boring. They should have concentrated on one "ism" to make the story stronger.

[JasmineFlower]

This episode was better for me because Sara was able to be Sara and for me, she's the best thing about this show by a mile. But I also mostly liked Ray and Kendra as well. The biggest problem I have with Ray on here after not necessarily liking, but appreciating him on Arrow, is that he's been a bumbling superhero more often than not and I'm not clear on why he's written that way. They kind of already worked out a lot of that on Arrow, not sure why that had to change. So, in this episode, where he was just Ray and Atom and was helpful, didn't mess up the mission, so I enjoyed him. I liked Kendra for the most part as well, except when she was up against Vandal towards the end. I don't understand why she's badass with everyone else and goes weak and off her game when up against the man who is her literal lifelong nemesis.

 

Hated everything related to the bird monsters. Way too gross for my liking and feel like it could have been something more palatable than what they chose and still worked fine.

 

Also didn't like the writing of the characters for the 1950s outside of Sara. Jax not knowing he'd be as big a target as he was is a joke, he's lucky he wasn't killed for hitting and parking with the white girl in that manner while the police chief cheered on the monsters. Like they gave soft warnings, but they didn't seem to register enough with him. Same with Ray and Kendra's interracial relationship. 1950s. As in the decade before the landmark supreme court case outlawing discrimination against interracial couples. Their shock at the realtor's surprise and the little other things were just a stretch, they'd know. And certainly, genius Ray would know. So, it's not about this being a small town and oh, let's get you into the city. It's not necessarily more acceptable there and writing the characters as ignorant of these things felt dumb. I know this is their own world so they aren't necessarily going by US law, but clearly they were conveying that here enough that they basically were. So, yet again, the writing in general and the details of the plotlines could use some work.

Edited March 11, 2016 by JasmineFlower

[Julie335]

Euh... not my favourite episode. Although it made me grateful I'm living in the 21st century and not in 1958. 

 

Ray and Kendra were okay. They are kind of sweet. 

 

Of course Sara was awesome as usual - kickass, and not just as a fighter. :) Her and Stein play off each other well.

 

I liked the pairing of the teenage girl and Jax. Yeah, the ugly vampire-bird mutated creatures were pretty yuck. Kinda sucks Jax was turned into one, albeit temporarily.

 

I'm kind of glad LoT isn't as dark as Arrow, but these chasing-after-Vandal episodes are starting to feel somewhat "comical"... and not in a good way. :(

[benteen]

Really enjoyed tonight’s episode.  The 1950s setting was a lot of fun (even if it did feel “a very special episode” at times).  The pairings were all strong tonight and I really enjoyed Sara and Stein.  I think Jax is getting better and better with every episode and this was a strong one as well.

 

I so wish a better actor was playing Savage.  It would have benefitted this episode further but Crump seemed to spend most of this episode trying to control his accent.

 

I thought his use of the name Curtis Knox sounded familiar and I was right.  That was the name of the character that Dean Cain played on Smallville, who was most assuredly Vandal Savage.

Edited March 11, 2016 by benteen

[Agent Dark]

"Well, it's a good thing I'm not from around here ;)" - damn, Sara's got game.  I want an episode of just Sara and Stein picking up all the ladies and Ray and Jax are just like "this isn't fair".

[Sakura12]

This episode wasn't my favorite but I enjoyed it. I did like getting some good character moments from all the characters. Kendra actually had some character growth, some. She wasn't just there so that's an improvement. Snart while upset about Mick is starting to join the team more without him around. He does seem to be more interested in saving the world than looking for a score. I like that he's changing. 

 

While they didn't touch it on that much I did like them talking about that the 50's was only great if you were a white male. For everyone else it sucked. 

 

I liked Sara freaking out over her first kiss since her rebirth. Although both Lindsey and cheerleader acted a little forward for the time they were in. I guess they needed to move the story along. Which doesn't make that much sense with it being a 2 parter. 

 

Savage is still a plot point and I still don't care about him. 

 

Also where does Sara keep pulling her bo staff from? It's like it just magically appears in her hand. Is that her super power?

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

Sara was awesome. I think she and Ali were cute flirting. I really enjoyed Caity here. Big shock I know :p I know people keep saying she's not a good actress but I think she is coming into her own. Or at least she really knows Sara and how she would behave in situations. I enjoyed all her scenes. I did miss Cold and Sara and Rip and Sara. But Sara plays off Stein really well as well. 

 

Rip and Snart were snazzy in their Bureau guise. I feel for Snart wanting everyone to think he's bad but missing Rory too much to hide it.  

 

Ray and Kendra look good together.  I still think she's a poor tv performer. She and Vandal are so weak. If Vandal was scary this episode would have been a knock out. Instead it fell short and the Hawk boys were nasty to look at. At least they bought back up Kendra needs the knife to kill savage. 

 

I still liked the feel of the episode. The quietness of some of the scenes really worked. Snart and Sara are still the highlights for me.

Edited March 11, 2016 by tarotx

[Artsda]

Loved the episode! Great seeing them in the 50's pleasantville setting and all the pairs.

 

Ray and Kendra play off each other well. I laughed at his reaction to seeing Savage with the Tuna surprise.

[Lantern7]

Too many anvils for my tastes. Racism, sexism, and Mick proving himself to be a real live boy . . . hero. Meh.

 

Is Sara the DC equivalent of Captain Jack Harkness? I don't think anybody is safe when she's roaming about.

 

Interesting to see Jax mutated. I'm guessing this is as close to a "Firehawk" as we'll be getting. I'm wondering where the wings come from. Also, Vandal still sucks as a compelling villain. Problem is, Chronos doesn't really fill the void.

[VCRTracking]

Man, that was like two seasons worth of Agent Carter in this episode. They weren't shying away at all at the social injustice of the era.

 

I can handwave that the interracial coupling only raised eyebrows and not more this was the North.  If it had been the South Jax would have been killed even looking at a white girl and Ray and Kendra's house would have burned to the ground.

 

That said Kendra looked GOOD in this episode.

 

"Ninja" wasn't really a common term to people in the West in 1958. James Bond had to be explained what one was in 1967's You Only Live Twice. I'm assuming Sara told Nurse Carlisle what one was offscreen.

Edited March 11, 2016 by VCRTracking

[KirkB]

Not only that, I don't think the term serial killer came around until the 70's. So while it's fine for Rip and Snart to use it, that police officer probably wouldn't really know what they were talking about.

[DigitalCount]

I thought his use of the name Curtis Knox sounded familiar and I was right.  That was the name of the character that Dean Cain played on Smallville, who was most assuredly Vandel Savage.

CURTIS KNOX! My jaw dropped when I heard the alias he was using; that was so awesome for the show to essentially honor the only reason why they are a show. As bad as Smallville got, without it there would be no DCTVU. I remember loving the episode Dean Cain was in on Smallville, and I think he would have worked in this role too.

 

Also, I don't think of myself as a coward, but I would have definitely spent the entire mission on the ship, being of a darker complexion than...pretty much anyone who's ever been on this show. I was honestly taken aback by how surprised Jax and Kendra seemed in their various situations. I get that they would be offended, but maybe don't poke the bear? Maybe that makes me a bit uncle-y, but I just can't see myself reacting in the ways they reacted. For sure they would have experienced more pushback than just astounded glares and huffy whispers. This isn't exactly using the wrong fork at a dinner party. I did appreciate that the other kids at the diner in the background actually got up and left when it was clear Jax wasn't going anywhere, as well as the fact that the cop called Jax "boy," but I don't believe that the letterman guys, as mean-spirited as they seemed, would have waited around until that evening to go after Jax. And I don't think that Jax handled the cop situation that well either. Really, if the cop wasn't in league with Savage, the best thing to do would probably be to offer to turn himself in after they got Betty to the hospital, or even to let the cop arrest him and then drop her off on the way to jail. Given that they've broken out of Cold-War Russia, I think smalltown America is a cakewalk in comparison.

 

At the same time, I get why they wouldn't want to seem to be sending a message that acquiescing to racism is a great way to live. I just don't think it was very responsible to essentially whitewash (urgh, choice of words ftw) the attitudes that would likely have been on display, even in a northern town.

[thuganomics85]

I do like that they at least acknowledge the sexism and racism of the 50s, even if it skirted the line of "special episode" territory, because it would have been weird if everything was hunky dory.  Still, I did find it strange that they didn't seem more prepared for it.  I could understand why Stein was clueless, because he probably never did have to deal with anything like that due to being a straight, while male, but I would have though Jax, Kendra, etc. would have been less shocked over the stares and hateful comments.

 

Pretty much everything with Sara was made of win.  Loved her flirtation with the nurse and it leading to her fears over any kind of relationship post-death.  I think that explains why she didn't automatically try to find Nyssa post-haste, and was willing to abandon everyone to go time-traveling with a bunch of criminals, arrogant scientists, and a barista (sorry!).  And, of course, Sara and Stein were hilarious together.  Stein better watch his ass though.

 

The more they keep dodging around Mick's "death", the more I think Snart found a way around that.  Or maybe I'm just holding out hope, since I miss the big lug.  I did like it leading to a confrontational relationship with Jefferson.  Of the group, he does seem to be the one who believes lines shouldn't be cross, and I can see why it wouldn't sit right with him that he "killed" Mick, even if Mick was a psycho who had an unhealthy love for fire.

 

Kendra and Ray continue to not bug too much, although I'm still not wild about them.  But at least Kendra's actress seems to be improving.

 

Rip and Snart did look pretty snazzy in those 50s detective outfits.  And Rip's American accent wasn't too bad.

 

I've given up on Savage ever being compelling.  He's just a bore, isn't intimating and threatening at all, and Casper Crump is probably the biggest casting misfire since Matt Nable as Ra's.  I keep comparing him to Damien Dahrk on Arrow, who might not have the best writing backing him up, but I at least buy him as a threat and more importantly, Neal McDonough just lights up the screen.  So, I keep thinking how much I would enjoy this more if it was someone like Damien taunting the heroes and someone like Neal playing off the rest of this cast.  What could have been, I guess.

 

Looks like Ray, Sara, and Kendra are sticking with the 50s for a bit longer.  That damn Chronos just won't stop, huh?

[justjoan]

 

I could understand why Stein was clueless, because he probably never did have to deal with anything like that due to being a straight, while male,

Straight, white, Jewish male. If he was using his own name, like Sara was, solid odds someone would have had a problem with him too. Then again, he was posing as a psychiatrist, which has usually been a profession we could get away with.

[VCRTracking]

Stein wasn't attempting to join a country clubs while he was there either.

 

If they're going to go further back in time though it's going to be even worse. As Louis CK  said time travel to the past  is exclusively a "white privilege". " A black person in a time machine 'Before 1980? No thank you.' But I can go to the year 2, I don't even know what's happening then but I do know when I get there people would be like  'Welcome! We have a table right here for you...'"  

Edited March 11, 2016 by VCRTracking

[BkWurm1]

Would a nurse in Oregon in 1958 REALLY know what a ninja was ?

Kendra really is the worst -- Vandal had her completely bamboozled that he didn't know who she was. She looks exactly the same as she did 4000 years ago, why wouldn't he know who she was ?

Knox/Savage did recognize her but since Kendra played it as she didn't know him and hadn't come into her memories, they said killing her would be of no use to him. He'd have to bid his time til she got her wings. (Which ironically they never showed in this episode).

The plan for killing him was once again terrible. How about you let suited up Ray hold him down and then you stab him rather than get huffy about being able to do it yourself? How is their idea of backing her up to be in total different rooms? Didn't they learn after Carter?

At least Kendra was a better fighter. Sara's lessons showed.

Loved the episode! Great seeing them in the 50's pleasantville setting and all the pairs.

Ray and Kendra play off each other well. I laughed at his reaction to seeing Savage with the Tuna surprise.

. I love that he ate it. I love that he LIKED it.

It wasn't my fav episode but I'm finding good stuff each week to like. Really curious about them when the show picks up. Least Sara could crash with the happy couple so she wouldn't be homeless.

Savage is dead, right? How long does that last?

Ray had better bring Mrs. Knox a sympathy casserole. He owes her one.

Edited March 11, 2016 by BkWurm1

[wayne67]

Well as usual I liked the characters for the most part and hated the plot.

 

The 1950's seemed fairly tame considering and the plan to kill Savage was underwhelming. Kendra had to be all self righteous about not needing help and Ray ended up apologizing for being right. UGH.

 

These people never learn anything.

 

Also aren't all these failed murder attempts getting a bit ridiculous. 

 

It feels like the characters are carrying idiot balls while protected by plot armor while cruising about time. I get no sense that there's any particular urgency with their missions. They're all too relaxed about Savage. 

 

Also the dude has immortality and that's it. Can't any of these people just ice him and get Kendra to stab him ?

 

*sigh*

[yellowfred]

This is another episode where I wish the writers had thought through how to prolong the fight against Savage more thoroughly.  This is one of the reasons that I think television writers would learn a lot from playing video games.  Like, most games that feature an actual plot have a main recurring villain, but most of the actual work you're doing is to either weaken your opponent or strengthen your team.  Along the way, you probably run into the main villain every once in a while, just to make sure you remember who they are, but you're not constantly going head to head with them.  

 

Not to mention, I feel like Savage might seem more threatening if we saw significantly less of him (the "Jaws Effect," if you will) and more of the proof of his influence.  For example, if it were one of his semi-immortal flunkies running the mutant-hawk-manufacturing scheme (also, if at some point there was a concern about Vandal Savage commanding an army of mutant hawk things in the future), it would have reiterated that he has a huge power base of loyal followers and avoided having the team kill Savage for a third time, still not permanently.  Also, it would have felt more like progress, which would be nice, at this point.  I must have missed it, but did they at least manage to keep the dagger this time?

 

I, personally, did not find the discussion of the various types of bigotry present in this time period to be overly "very special episode"-esque.  To me, it felt like they kept that as an aspect of the different plot lines without making it the point of any of them.  Of course, I would have found it pretty glaring if they just hadn't addressed any of it, so there's that.

 

So, now that Sara's stuck where/when she is, do you think she's at least gonna go back and see that nurse?  I'm just saying, like, while she's there/then, she might as well take advantage of the situation.

[FurryFury]

Good episode. The show's catching its stride.

 

I won't lie, seeing Rip and Cold in those trenchcoats did something to me. And the whole aesthetic, too. Visually, '50s (and '40s) USA is something I've always liked.

 

Loved Jax lampshading the hell of the "Town with a Dark Secret" trope.  And calling the bully Biff! He's definitely growing on me. His dynamic with Stein is pretty generic, but still enjoyable.

 

Oh my God, Vandal Savage with a casserole. That was funny. As was Ray's enthusiasm for a tuna surprise.

 

Kendra's black dress was gorgerous. I covet it. Also, her scenes with VS were the most I've liked her and CR. They actually do have some kind of (really creepy) chemistry, which is surprising. Too bad she was stupid enough to think she could seduce Savage that easily. That dude killed her a 1000 times despite claiming to love her. It should be perfectly clear he only loves himself.

 

I liked the nurse, she was cute and I felt for her, but she was nothing special - your classic girl of the week type of character (although I'm glad it helped Sara). It felt kinda off for Sara to discuss her feelings with Stein, however - they didn't seem to be close enough for that. I'd prefer if she talked to, say, Cold (who really didn't get enough of a focus considering last week's events), it would nicely parallel their previous conversation about his relationship with Mick.

 

Who the hell was VS's "wife"?

 

How the hell did Rip manage to get up so quickly after catching a full blast from Chronos' gun?

 

Nice to see that the writers explained about Firestorm unable to use their powers on a ship, there were lots of complaints the last episode.

[cambridgeguy]

If Purcell is still on the show then they should make him Chronos.  He certainly has the motivation to hunt down the crew, especially Rip and Snart. 

 

Speaking of which, I see I'm not the only one who saw Rip take a direct hit from Chronos.  Maybe he should share whatever armor he's wearing with the rest of the team?

 

I can't believe Snart or Rip didn't tag along on Jax's date.  What exactly were they doing on the ship that was so important?  Lose Jax and you lose Firestorm, your most powerful team member.

 

It is nice to see that the team is still incapable of coming up with the quick and easy way to finish things.  They had the knife and they knew where Savage worked AND lived.  No plans to set up an ambush with all of the team members? 

 

Cartoons tend to twist themselves into contortions to avoid saying the word "kill" but I'm not sure why this show is doing that.  What is with all this talk about ending Savage? 

[Primetimer]

Our heroes seek their madman in the days before Mad Men.

Read the story

[KirkB]

I must have missed it, but did they at least manage to keep the dagger this time?

 

 

No. At least, I don't think so. Savage had the dagger and was getting ready to kill Kendra when Ray came in and blasted him (and it) out the window.

 

While I liked this episode overall having Savage directly involved once again strikes me as a WTF moment. This is the guy they're after, he doesn't have a huge army of semi-immortal followers backing him up, and has no idea who any of them except Kendra are. Instead of playing house and flirting with nurses (not that I didn't like Sara finding someone to help who also helps her) they could have dogpiled Savage, tied him up and dragged him back to the Waverider. At least there was a plausible excuse the last time that happened.

 

I can kind of understand Kendra and Jax being surprised by the intensity of the racism they were encountering. While they probably have gotten some of it in their normal lives this is literally a different time with different rules. Knowing what it was like, even hearing it from your parents or grandparents, isn't nearly the same as getting it right in your face. At the same time, what we saw onscreen was probably a fraction of what they would really have experienced (the diner more than likely wouldn't even have served him, and the guys almost certainly would have said worse things) but the CW probably won't let them show things as bad as they really were.

 

Speaking of Jax though, what was the thing about him and Stein not merging on the Waverider? Is the idea that the process is somehow explosive? And are the show runners so short sighted they forget Jax and Stein already have merged on the Waverider? During the pilot, and the first attack by Chronos?

Edited March 11, 2016 by KirkB

[darkestboy]

Great episode. The explorations into racism (Kendra, Jax), sexism (Kendra, Sara) and sexuality (Sara) were handled pretty well in the episode.

 

I'm warming to Kendra and Ray and I did like their scenes with Savage even if he's lost momentum as a villain though.

 

Jax had a horrible time throughout this episode but at least Stein and Snart helped him out though.

 

Sara and Lindsay's storyline was nice. I like how the show has handled Sara's bisexuality. Just an excellent job there.

 

Rip and Cold did look great in their 50s detective gear but the bird monsters did look ridiculous.

 

Nice cliffhanger there and I still don't believe that Heatwave is dead, 8/10

[Actionmage]

From the recap:

 

[stein] She's talking about an inframetal meteorite.

 

Sorry to be so picky, but I think that's Nth metal.  Something that got stuck in my head after so many comics.

 

What surprised me was that there was no line/s from Kendra about experiencing the discrimination in any of her past lives. As the poster upthread said, yeah, for Kendra it had to be 'whoa', but she'd lived during WWII, minimum, in the U.S. She's experienced it before, I would think.  Maybe the writers thought Kendra telling Jax about an experience would have been VSE? 

 

The thing with Schroedinger's Heat Wave is fun for a minute, then bordering on tiresome as I want to know for sure. I really disliked Jax going off on Leonard without knowing what actually happened. ( Yeah, yeah, dramatic tension. Whatev. I enjoy Mick and the texture he adds to the team. And Snart. Snart would kill someone for Rory and split the Klondike bar with him.)

 

I was wondering how the nurse was going to be worked into more than one episode ( I had read she was in more than one), so this is okay.  I thought Nurse Carlisle was cool, so I hope she stays that way.

 

I also will accept that "Gray" and Jax can't do what they do on the ship, but why not, say, on a lonely road in the middle of nowhere, and bird monsters are attacking ? There wasn't even a shot of Martin either gasping in horror or dashing about looking for either a phone or Sara.  I was surprised that Jax wouldn't home in on Stein's locale, as it was a hospital, even though not the regular kind.

 

Waiting two weeks is infinitely preferable to a month, so I'm okay with the wait.  Not happy, but okay.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Actionmage

[ACW]

If Purcell is still on the show then they should make him Chronos.  He certainly has the motivation to hunt down the crew, especially Rip and Snart. 

.

.

.

Cartoons tend to twist themselves into contortions to avoid saying the word "kill" but I'm not sure why this show is doing that.  What is with all this talk about ending Savage? 

 

  Last night, I decided that Chronos will turn out to be Mick Rory.  My wife is betting on Carter Hall.  So it'll probably be Rip... or his wife. ;)

 

"End" vs. "Kill":  That seemed really odd to me as well.  Thinking about it today, though, it almost makes sense.  "Killing" Vandal Savage shouldn't be that hard; it's "Ending" him that's tricky (well, if you're our idiot Legends, anyway).

[FurryFury]

What surprised me was that there was no line/s from Kendra about experiencing the discrimination in any of her past lives. As the poster upthread said, yeah, for Kendra it had to be 'whoa', but she'd lived during WWII, minimum, in the U.S. She's experienced it before, I would think.  Maybe the writers thought Kendra telling Jax about an experience would have been VSE?

 

She still doesn't seem to remember much from her past lives.

[Gregg247]

I find Vandal Savage to be such a one-note, mustache-twirling villain, that he ruins the show for me.

 

Ray mentioned that vandal's cassarole actually tasted good.  Wouldn't it have been fun if it turned out Vandal actually enjoyed many of his various undercover personas that he had.  Like maybe he enjoyed the small-town life, had become a member of the Chamber of Commerce, actually loved his wife, etc.?  I mean, aside from killing people in gruesome ways, he doesn't seem to have any kind of hobbies or interests at all.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Man, that was like two seasons worth of Agent Carter in this episode. They weren't shying away at all at the social injustice of the era.

 

If only this show had more in common with Agent Carter, such as a relative lack of plotholes.

 

I get it that we have to work within the paradigm of "we have little idea where/when Savage might be" so let's just jump around despite knowing now at least 5 points in time/space where he will be (4k BC Egypt, 2016 Star City and Central City, when/wherever they encountered him in the pilot, Russia in the 70s.).

 

But once you know that Savage is in a given time period, do you rally the troops? Not really. 

 

Do you go back 10 days, a month, whatever and lie in wait for him? No.

 

The thing about Kendra wanting to go on her own vs. Savage was painful. It is just common sense that you should never, ever let that happen. With Kendra the only way of actually killing Savage that we know of, it doesn't make sense to expose her to risk at all. It would be like a chess player putting his queen out in the center of the board for his second move.

 

That is putting aside that a) she (even with the sometimes help of Hawkman) is 0-206 versus Savage and b) if she is killed by Savage, Savage gets that much stronger.

 

Finally, the previews indicate that the Waverider leave Kendra, Ray and Sara in Pleasantville for 3 years. Why? They have a frigging time ship! They should be able to bounce right back to Pleasantville within a day of when they left. 

[diebartdie]

I enjoyed this episode (in spite of the many anachronisms in speech and attitude), I love this show so much but there was one thing that bugged me so much.....why the hell did Savage keep yammering on and on like that when he had the knife to Kendra's throat? Seriously, he was all like "I am going to KILL you! Right now! With this dagger I have held to your vulnerable throat! Because I want to kill you and I will! Right now! Im holding you tight, I have the dagger, a very sharp, wicked dagger right here pressed against your throat and Im going to slice it! Right now! I really am because I am going to KILL you! Now! With this dagger! At your throat! Which is where Im holding the dagger! Which Im going to use to slice your throat! Which will kill you!" on and on for like half the episode! Dude, just do it for fucks sake, it's not like she brought back up or anything.

 

I dont want Savage to kill Kendra.

[TVHappy9463]

I agree with the previous poster, we get it the 50's were none to kind to anyone that was't a white man. I actually found myself falling asleep, this one just didn't do it for me. And I am not digging Ray and Kendra together they don't seem to have any chemistry.  And Snart is so one note, c'mon Wentworth a little mode voice modulation please. 

I am sticking with it because i like the actors, and into the Flash, Arrow universe thing. But I am not sure how ,mch longer I can last.  m

[benteen]

I enjoyed this episode (in spite of the many anachronisms in speech and attitude), I love this show so much but there was one thing that bugged me so much.....why the hell did Savage keep yammering on and on like that when he had the knife to Kendra's throat? Seriously, he was all like "I am going to KILL you! Right now! With this dagger I have held to your vulnerable throat! Because I want to kill you and I will! Right now! Im holding you tight, I have the dagger, a very sharp, wicked dagger right here pressed against your throat and Im going to slice it! Right now! I really am because I am going to KILL you! Now! With this dagger! At your throat! Which is where Im holding the dagger! Which Im going to use to slice your throat! Which will kill you!" on and on for like half the episode! Dude, just do it for fucks sake, it's not like she brought back up or anything.

 

I dont want Savage to kill Kendra.

 

Yeah, Savage not cutting her throat was dumb and just as bad was the corrupt cop getting the drop on Ray and Rip.

[NorthstarATL]

Man, that was like two seasons worth of Agent Carter in this episode. They weren't shying away at all at the social injustice of the era.

 

I can handwave that the interracial coupling only raised eyebrows and not more this was the North.  If it had been the South Jax would have been killed even looking at a white girl and Ray and Kendra's house would have burned to the ground.

They couldn't really get into the fact that interracial marriage was actually illegal in some states when we've been told that there's been an equivalent ban on same-sex marriage which was so heinous that it had to be addressed by the Supremes, even though it was just that in the gay case the problem was that the Government was not acknowledging, rather than outright criminalizing.

  Good thing Sara's gaydar worked so well. I guess that she didn't realize that women asserting a disinterest in marriage in that time period was also a determination to choose a career and not necessarily a disinterest in men outside of the institution.

   Kendra should have known that Vandal would recognize her, but has the show stated that the Hawks always look the same in each life? We've seen the originals, and they were, for several reasons, played by the same people, but I thought they were re-incarnated, which, in the comics, meant that the souls/memories were the same, but the body could be entirely different, which is how an Egyptian couple could be re-incarnated as a blond man and WASP woman.

 If the team is separated, does that mean that Kendra's group gets another crack at VS?

Edited March 11, 2016 by NorthstarATL

[blackwing]

I was surprised at how easily Jefferson just sidled up Betty.  I know it was supposed to be this "2016 kid is all shocked at the racism and segregation" but he at least should have been aware of it.  You'd think that'd be something that Rip could have mentioned.  I guess I envision that before the ship lands in wherever, whenever, that Rip has a briefing telling them about where they are, what the times are like, and social/cultural things to be aware of.

 

Putting Ray and Sarah together to pose as the new homeowners would have called much less attention to them.  

 

How did Ray manage to steal the dagger?  I guess I always thought he could only shrink himself and the suit.  Didn't think he could shrink something he was holding and then grow it back.

 

The Bird Monsters were just stupid and gross.  I thought I was watching "Legends of Tomorrow", not "Supernatural".

[benteen]

Rip did warn Jefferson that Betty was a very white girl in an unenlightened community.  Jefferson and Kendra showed more self awareness than most TV characters do in this kind of situation.

Edited March 11, 2016 by benteen

[henripootel]

It was still a generous helping of cheese but I actually kinda enjoyed this week, and my finger has hovered over the 'delete onepass' button several times.  With a few caveats:

I can handwave that the interracial coupling only raised eyebrows and not more this was the North.  If it had been the South Jax would have been killed even looking at a white girl and Ray and Kendra's house would have burned to the ground.

 

Probably correct.  Not long after this was set, my great-uncle died suddenly, and in his cedar chest was the 20 years of dues in a ledger from the local chapter of the Klan, along with his robes.  Apparently the Treasurer wears robes too, in the ledger was the chief of police, the last couple of mayors, and pretty much the tax role of important local business types.  Nope, not Mississippi, Michigan.  Racism was alive and well up north.

 

It was a bit much that they sent their two black characters right on a collusion course with racism, putting them in situations guaranteed rile the locals.  I mean I give them tons of credit for pointing out that this world was idyllic only for white males, but they did push a bit hard to make sure these guys would get themselves in danger.  

 

And not for nothing, but no way cheerleader girl would just ask a random black guy out for a date in 1958.  I'm old enough to have caught the last whiff of institutionalized racism (in the late 70s) and it would have been something of a thing even then.  Not a huge thing, mind, but enough that (I'm guessing) she'd have been far more circumspect.  I mean asking anybody out when your steady boyfriend has just gone missing, to say nothing of a stranger - that was weird.  Hey, teenagers.  

 

God, I'll bet Savage's 'tuna surprise' was the same stuff my mom made back in the day.  We still give her shit for it - stuff was wretched.  She claims she made it like twice but my memories (and those of my siblings) were more like 'twice a week'.  Gah.

 

And I think they missed an opportunity with Cold and Rip.  When they were choosing a cover I was hoping for something like this:

Rip: So what do we use for a cover?

Cold: How about Men in Black?

Rip: You know there's really no historic evidence that they ever actually existed ...

Cold: Well, there is now.

Edited March 11, 2016 by henripootel

[Sakura12]

I think they tried to show the cheerleader as a bit of risk taker. She was enjoying the drag race with her boyfriend. So maybe she liked being outside the norm? Dating a black guy would fit that. 

 

I think they wanted to call attention to it but didn't want to focus on it because that would've taken up the whole episode. 

[henripootel]

I think they wanted to call attention to it but didn't want to focus on it because that would've taken up the whole episode.

I think they did okay with this without being either too pollyanna or revisionist, especially for a comic-book show.  I was actually surprised that Stein of all people reminded Sara that it's all well and good to follow your heart, but that nurse is still gonna be living in 1958 when Sara gets back in her timeship.  I mean they could have gone a lot of ways with these issues and I think they did okay with them.

 

They also acknowledged the fact that the smart move is to go back in time so Vandal Savage wouldn't be forewarned about them.  I do have a question about this though.  

 

So Savage has set himself up with a lab and title so he can experiment with meteor rock mutations (I'm supressing my Smallville flashbacks here).  Question: when did he do this?  The meteor looks like it just fell, and was discovered by the kids right about the same time Savage found it.  How'd Savage know to set his lab right here and right now (in 1958)?  Must have taken a while to set up this cover, I mean he has a degree and a wife and all.  Just a coincidence that he set up the lab in Oregon in anticipation of a wholly random meteor fall? 

Edited March 12, 2016 by henripootel

[Helena Dax]

Stein wasn't attempting to join a country clubs while he was there either.

 

If they're going to go further back in time though it's going to be even worse. As Louis CK  said time travel to the past  is exclusively a "white privilege". " A black person in a time machine 'Before 1980? No thank you.' But I can go to the year 2, I don't even know what's happening then but I do know when I get there people would be like  'Welcome! We have a table right here for you...'"  

 

I don't agree 100% Black people would have a harder time to find a safe destination, of course, but I think they wouldn't have too many troubles visiting places like Ancient Egypt or Ancient Rome. And if you're a white person with blond hair and blue eyes... Be really careful if you go to Genoa or Venice during the Middle Age because you could end up sold as a sex slave to some Muslim guy. Also, a white person in Sub-Saharan Africa 2.000, 5.000 years ago wouldn't have had any racial privilege. 

 

(Being a woman also limits your safe options, although the dangers are different).

 

I'm enjoying this show a lot. I don't watch Flash or Arrow, but I like what I'm watching here (well, most of the time). Kendra and Savage... I don't care about them, tbh. And I dislike Rip a lot. But the other characters are great and I love the relationships between them.  Can't wait to know what happened to Mick!

 

I wasn't expecting that last twist; that's something the show does pretty well. I guess we're not done with the 50s!

 

Cold looked very sad without his buddy, poor thing. 

 

Loved Ray eating Savage's tuna casserole, heh. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Helena Dax

[nksarmi]

I think they did a couple of interesting things with the Ray/Kendra thing.  First, I believe the actress who plays Kendra does not self-identify as black.  She's mixed and how she self-identifies is her business and no one else's.  But to me, the reason that's interesting is because even though she has that option today - she wouldn't have in 1958.  She would have just been colored - no matter what other ethnicities she shares.  So, I think that was a bit of a statement in and of itself.

 

I also like that the real estate agent DID say she had listings in other "forward thinking" towns which highlighted the fact that even in 1958, some parts of the country WERE progressive while others were most definitely NOT.  Since this was set in a part of the country I am unfamiliar with - I don't know what their segregation laws were.  I spent part of the diner scenes wondering if someone was going to tell Jax he couldn't be in there but I guess they skipped that because it would have bogged down the plot.

 

Other than giving Sara a nurse love interest, I think they sent Sara with Stein to keep him safe and help him if things needed to get covert.  Plus, while Sara could have played Ray's wife easily - I don't know if it would have been problematic or not for Kendra to be the nurse.  Plus I like all the development that came from those pairings so I'm happy. :)

[Cthulhudrew]

Oy, oy, oy. 

 

Once again, any emotional payoff to the various stories is undercut by the lack of actual development associated with them all. The scenarios are cliched and exercise minimal (if any) effort to distinguish them from any attempt at the most basic and cookie cutter dialogue.

 

And I still don't understand why they even bothered to choose these particular characters, when they continually use only their personalities but not their powers. Why couldn't the Atom have shrunk down and hidden inside Kendra's purse as backup? Why is Snart's cold gun suddenly just a glorified concussion pistol? Why do they never use Firestorm (at least they attempted to address that one this episode, if in a very dismissive and unpalatable way-didn't they merge on the ship before?)? Why do they keep telling us what an amazing "Time Master" Rip is, while showing us everything but?

 

Sigh.

 

One glaring omission is Hall H, the locked ward run by a Dr. Curtis Knox. Obviously Sara's quite curious about that, but just like at San Diego Comic-Con, it is nearly impossible to get into Hall H.

 

This quote from the recap cracked me up, though. So true. Can't even get in to Comic-Con much at all, these days.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[InsertWordHere]

And I think they missed an opportunity with Cold and Rip.  When they were choosing a cover I was hoping for something like this:

Rip: So what do we use for a cover?

Cold: How about Men in Black?

Rip: You know there's really no historic evidence that they ever actually existed ...

Cold: Well, there is now.

While this would have been funny, I'm not sure a DC show would reference Men in Black, since it's owned by Marvel.

[VCRTracking]

Whoa, Joe Dante(Gremlins, Howling) directed this episode? I can't believe I'm only finding about this now from the Birth.Movies.Death review!

Edited March 12, 2016 by VCRTracking

[BkWurm1]

Stein] She's talking about an inframetal meteorite.

 

 

Sorry to be so picky, but I think that's Nth metal.  Something that got stuck in my head after so many comics.

 

Agreed.  I definitely heard Nth metal.

 

also like that the real estate agent DID say she had listings in other "forward thinking" towns which highlighted the fact that even in 1958, some parts of the country WERE progressive while others were most definitely NOT.  Since this was set in a part of the country I am unfamiliar with - I don't know what their segregation laws were.  I spent part of the diner scenes wondering if someone was going to tell Jax he couldn't be in there but I guess they skipped that because it would have bogged down the plot.

 

See what I got from the "forward thinking" towns was it was  code for black neighborhoods.  I was just happy that she didn't flat out refuse to sell them the place.  I do think a LOT of stuff was skipped over because there would have been zero time for plot.  

 

Finally, the previews indicate that the Waverider leave Kendra, Ray and Sara in Pleasantville for 3 years

 

I thought it was three months?