S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[stopeslite]

I had been thoroughly spoiled for the episode, and was pleased to see that Bertie didn't just up and storm out of the room and LEAVE FOREVER, but that he and Edith talked it over like grownups after he'd calmed down. I was expecting Edith to say something like "I tried to tell you a dozen times" or "Didn't you notice my reluctance? That was why, and I never did directly say yes". But she didn't. At first that annoyed me, but then I realized no, she's taking full blame for the fact that she didn't tell him, no matter how much she thought about it or tried to dodge the marriage question. I really liked that.

 

Even more than Edith and Tom yelling at Mary, I think the most cutting thing anyone said to her was Edith at the wedding, casually saying well of course you're nice now, that's because you're happy, and you'll get back to being a bitch soon. (not that she said it in quite those terms, much as I wanted her to)  It really summed up Mary's personality. She likes to think she's a paragon of good manners and higher upbringing, but she just lashes out with whatever her id is up to at the moment. 

[kassa]

Tom seemed resigned rather than appalled when it became obvious Mary was going to use "Edith's Secret" against her.

 

 

Well, it WAS the reason the secret was kept from her in the first place.  Precisely that reason.  And true to form...

[Eyes High]

Upon reflection, the headline was practically screaming Homo Hexham Dies on Gaycation.

"Homo Hexham Dies on Gaycation" made me choke laughing. I hope you're happy.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[jnymph]

My favorite scene was Master George bringing "Mr. Baw-wow" the orange.  I love how he propped himself up to have a seat on the bed next to Barrow's. 
Adorable tot and great casting.  Looks like his Daddy.

 

Loved Rosamund suggesting the tea visit to help Mrs. Patmore.   I didn't find the "house of ill repute" storyline remotely amusing either.  

 

Loved Mrs Hughes referencing the adulterers that have been at the Grantham dinner table in the past.

 

The wedding felt rushed and wrong.   Tom was happy though.  LOL

Edited February 23, 2016 by jnymph

[MakeMeLaugh]

.... I was expecting Edith to say something like "I tried to tell you a dozen times" or "Didn't you notice my reluctance? That was why, and I never did directly say yes". But she didn't. At first that annoyed me, but then I realized no, she's taking full blame for the fact that she didn't tell him, no matter how much she thought about it or tried to dodge the marriage question. I really liked that.

 ....

YES! This is part of the reason I am so in love with Edith right now (not that way :)). So so sad, but not defensive, not pleading with him to stay, just quite agreeing that she was wrong and he should go. That scene outside while the taxi was waiting was amazing. And then taking her sad but stiff upper lip off to the magazine and "Bananas"! What a nice job the show's writers did with her this episode

[blackwing]

I am so distracted by the title of "Marquess." It seems like that should be a woman's title!

This episode taught me that the proper pronunciations of Marquess and Marchioness are something like MAR-kwess and MAR-chih-ness.  I had always thought it was mar-KESS and mar-CHEE-uh-ness.

 

Question... obviously George is heir to the earldom, since he is the son of Matthew who was the heir before his death.  But I recall that there is talk that Matthew made Mary is heir.  What is the effect of this?  I think it's that it gave her half of the house, right?  But not the title?  When Robert dies, then George becomes the 8th (or 6th) Earl of Grantham.  I believe Mary will always be known as Lady Mary Crawley (or I suppose now, Lady Mary Talbot), but she doesn't have a title.  When George becomes Earl does she get any kind of courtesy title?  When Henry Tudor became Henry VII, Margaret Beaufort started considering herself a queen and called herself Margaret Regina.  Is Mary going to get anything, or no?

 

What happens if George dies while a child?  Then we have season 1 issues all over again, right?  Much like how Bertie is the surprise new Marquess I am curious as to who is next in line to the earldom behind George.  When did England change to allow females to inherit titles?  Was that not until Elizabeth II ascended?

[Roseanna]

I still wonder what Henry knew about any of this on his wedding day (given that he is now an official member of the family and there must have been some undercurrent to strain within the family resulting from Edith's sudden departure and stink in the air permeating the days leading up to his (first) nuptials).   

While I can understand Mary's reluctance to admit that there's a bastard child in the family, I think Henry has a right to know, since it's not a skeleton but a 2+ year old littler girl in the family closet. 

 

I believe Henry knows nothing. Who wouldn't tell him? Obviously Edith couldn't have told him without revealing him also her secret. If she had told, I doubt Henry wouldn't come to Downton as Mary whistled after this incident had opened his eyes about Mary unless he is a completely shallow person (well, maybe he is). Mary wouldn't have told him either because she wants him to regard her in a good light. Robert and Cora had always agreed that it's entirely Edith's decision and from their POV Henry has no "right" to know. Besides, he came to Downton with a marriage license in his pocket, so he was ready to marry Mary whatever consequences.

[kassa]

Loved Mrs Hughes referencing the adulterers that have been at the Grantham dinner table in the past.

 

 

One steady character attribute of Mrs. Hughes is that she has NEVER been sucked into believing "the family" are anything but (generally decent) human beings with enough income to pay her salary.  Unlike Carson, she has clocked out at the end of each long day for the last 40 years without troubling herself overmuch about anything beyond her professional responsibilities.

[roomtorome]

Well, at the very least, Mary can't be asking herself why she wasn't told the secret - given how she behaved.  

 

What I found truly bizarre - and, somewhat offensive - is that her atrocious, nasty behavior was blamed on her not "being happy" - since when does not being happy give someone the license to be a total bitch and to use cruelty as a weapon - 

 

If you look at Mary's face at the table when she is first told about Bertie's new position, you can almost see the steam coming out of her ears and her mind working on how to screw this all up for her sister - MY opinion only, of course.

 

My guess is that even Tom may not have realized just now vicious Mary would be about the whole thing and maybe that's why he didn't alert Edith to the fact that Mary knew - but, of course, if he had, then the plot would have played out differently and we wouldn't have gotten this "drama" - 

 

Even in the midst of Edith's dressing down of Mary (while she was packing before getting to call her a bitch) - you hear Mary try, pitifully, to say that Edith is "pathetic" - I think she begins to say "you pathetic...." (not difficult to imagine the words that Mary planned to utter after those two) but Edith cuts her off - gloriously too, I might add.

[dangwoodchucks]

When Henry called Mary's name twice as she continued up the steps, was that supposed to be pleadingly, because it sounded more demanding and just plain creepy. I've tried, but I just don't see this great love that is supposed to exist between them. And Tom was being obnoxious constantly pestering Mary about Henry. I have a feeling Henry's days will be taken up with spending Mary's money and tinkering on cars in the garage with Tom. And Tom, do you really think proudly telling the groom on his wedding day that you were best man at both of Mary's weddings was appropriate? His glee at all things Henry is just so odd.

 

So much hat porn this episode. I loved Mary's hat she wore to go see Matthew. So Edith does her own intricately curled hair and Mary needs a lady's maid to comb her very straight simply styled hair? Sheesh, that's what Mary's jealous about.

 

I enjoyed the episode, not because I liked or disliked the various stories, but because things happened and characters showed more emotion than we usually see. Of course most of that emotion was directed at Mary, but whatever.

 

Hugh Bonneville looked particularly attractive this episode. And his puppy was close by, still chewing on her basket.

[izabella]

My guess is that even Tom may not have realized just now vicious Mary would be about the whole thing and maybe that's why he didn't alert Edith to the fact that Mary knew - but, of course, if he had, then the plot would have played out differently and we wouldn't have gotten this "drama" -

 

My opinion of Tom has really declined this season.  First, he chooses to have no life or hopes and dreams that aren't about Mary marrying Henry.  Then, even though he gave her the smackdown for spilling the beans to Bertie, his opinion of Mary remains high and he is still all about her happiness and getting her happily married off to Henry.

 

I can see how Mary's parents might be sympathetic to her as their child.  But Tom?  Why does he want to be besties with a woman who treats people like Mary does? 

Edited February 23, 2016 by izabella

[Roseanna]

That scene was very strange. When Mary said she wondered if Bertie would lose his job, she had a concerned look on her face, so Tom telling her not to be so gleeful about it was bizarre.

 

Regarding Barrow, as ill-timed as Mary's comment was to her father, I'm not sure it was as low a blow as he took it to be. Although the family has talked about cutting back on staff for years and has cut back from what we saw in early seasons, the sudden urgent need for Thomas and no one else to leave as soon as possible does seem cruel. Up to this point, they've thinned the ranks through attrition. Maids leave, footmen leave, and they simply don't get replaced. Even if under butler is increasingly becoming an unnecessary position, why wouldn't they just demote him to footman and let Andy go? Even Molesley and Bates have been working for them for less time than Barrow.

 

We've seen in the past that long-time staff members are treated, in some respects, like family. The family has paid the Bateses' legal and medical bills. Robert paid for Mrs. Patmore's eye surgery, and when Mrs. Hughes thought she might have breast cancer, Cora told her not to worry about who would take care of her or where she'd live because she would live there and they would take care of her. Similarly, Mrs. Hughes had no retirement savings and planned to work until she dropped dead. Eventually, the family would have seen she was too old to work; I can't see that they would have put her out in the street at that point. I doubt any of the staff are paid enough to really put away any savings. Mrs. Patmore bought her B&B because a relative died and she inherited; the Bateses have a house because Mr. Bates inherited his mother's house; only Carson seems to have had any money of his own. So I'm wondering why Thomas is suddenly persona non grata; I get that  he's been all bastardy for years and that Carson doesn't like him, but that's nothing new. Thomas is like the family's black sheep son/employee. He's been with them since he was a teenager, probably. It just seems very contrived that Robert and the rest of the family have no loyalty to him at all now and are willing to throw him and his training in an obsolete profession out to the wolves.

 

 

Mary's remark to Robert was extremely low and cruel - in her usual way she hit below the belt in order to prevent the rest of the family to reproach her for Edith.

 

It was obvious Thomas didn't try to commit a suicide solely because he was losing his job and couldn't find a new one. The main reason was that he noticed that nobody didn't like him and he had caused this with his own behavior. In short, his motive was a connection of problems in all areas of life and that he could invent no way to solve them.

 

In this kind of situation, some people tend to accuse others ("why was he fired", "why did his girlfriend dump him?") whereas other people try to comfort those who may feel guilty ("you couldn't possible know", "he had many problems and this was only one of them"). And there are also some who ask themselves whether they could have done something - and if they are able to think dispassionately,  the honest answer often is: no.  

 

Mary's instead reaction was to accuse Robert, instead of asking herself f.ex. if she could have bought one dress less. In the end, neither Mary nor Robert didn't know Thomas well enough to anticipate a suicide. Carson should have known Thomas better but didn't and I wouldn't accuse even him.         

[Roseanna]

My opinion of Tom has really declined this season.  First, he chooses to have no life or hopes and dreams that aren't about Mary marrying Henry.  Then, even though he gave her the smackdown for spilling the beans to Henry, his opinion of Mary remains high and he is still all about her happiness and getting her happily married off to Edith.

 

I can see how Mary's parents might be sympathetic to her as their child.  But Tom?  Why does he want to be besties with a woman who treats people like Mary does? 

 

Well, some people thinks primarily how a person treats themselves.

 

And Mary is a person with a Janus face: she is kind, helpful and loyal to those few she likes. Once she accepted Tom in S3, she has always treated him well, if one leaves out that she kind of pressured him emotionally not to leave for America. 

[RedHawk]

This probably belongs in another thread, or I could post it after the final finale Christmas Show, but if I go wandering into other threads I'm likely to be spoiled so I don't dare. I wish before disbanding some of the cast had filmed a spoof called "Upside Downton" in which Mrs. Patmore truly is running a house of ill repute, where she allows Bates to rob and murder the wealthy male clients, thus profiting from his uncontrollable urge to kill. Anna keeps silent for fear of him and prays her baby won't carry the bad seed. Sgt. Willis turns a blind eye because he loves both Mrs. Patmore AND the hearty meals she serves him. Thomas really IS a vampire, and can't move far from the Abbey because his casket is hidden in the catacombs below. (The suicide attempt was actually a "feed" gone a bit wrong, so he posed as a suicide.)

 

Mrs. Hughes does in Mr. Carson with a frying pan in the cottage kitchen, and Daisy and Andrew bury him in Mr. Mason's pig pens. Tom and Henry are a gay couple, now happily living under the same roof and "tinkering with cars" all day long behind the closed doors of the garage. Mary conveniently has no interest in their cars yet she often goes on week-long sketching trips. Bertie's mother forces him to marry his Hexam cousin who has wealth and a title but is sickly and lacks inner spark -- a '20s version of Lady Catherine deBourgh's daughter Anne in Pride and Prejudice. Edith's magazine becomes the leading ladies' publication of the day, a sort of early Ms. She then runs for a seat in Parliament and wins. Isobel recommends Bates as a temporary valet to Larry Merton, who dies shortly before his wedding due to a strange accident which Sgt. Willis chooses not to investigate because no one actually cares that Larry is dead. Evelyn Napier writes a bestselling novel about the cruel, haughty, sexually debauched daughter of an Earl, who runs an estate while waiting for her young son to inherit the title...

Edited February 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

Speaking of general dynamic, while I didn't like that everyone was laughing at Mrs. Patmore's predicament, it was funny that the scandal, which was supposed to be kept downstairs, and to very limited downstairs staff, swept through the entire house in a couple of hours. 

[SusanSunflower]

I was wondering how much Mary was responsible for the household and servant budget as part of her "career" ... Ultimately, I think it's up to Carson to determine if "standards are being compromised" -- i.e. guests will notice that they only have x number of footmen, etc. and/or if staff are being overworked and likely to become resentful, etc. It's not up to Robert to "save" Thomas' position if it's superfluous and it would be up to Thomas to petition Robert (or whomever) to be considered for a reassignment if Carson believe his position is unnecessary.  As far as I recall, we haven't seen the Granthams solicit their friends who might need someone of Thomas' skills, but again ... that's not all-of-why Thomas attempted suicide and (and given his "war wound") imho, secondary gain should not be ruled out. Yes, he made everyone feel guilty -- hoorah. 

 

Yes, Mary felt a pang-of-remorse and blamed Robert ... but we saw no indication that it registered that her future "career" would be occasioned by making decisions that proved unpopular and/or a hardship on others, decisions that could not be blamed on Tom or Robert.  

 

ETA: Seriously, no one upstairs knows Thomas well enough to presume the "reason" he did what he did, much less blame Robert or Carson or anyone. That's why I wondered what Tom knew and might have told Mary about Edith. Mary might presume Marigold was Gregson's child, but she in fact does not KNOW that, nor does she know -- for instance, Gregson knew anything about Edith's pregnancy, much less that he didn't, or why he went to Germany or anything about Edith's state-of-mind ... if she didn't know, her "attack" was extremely reckless imho. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[RedHawk]

So, since Bertie wasn't dating Mary, we're not worried about him flying all the way to Tangiers in an aeroplane, are we? On second thought, Edith's got a dead suitor and Cousin Patrick on her sheet, and a jilt at the altar. What now?

 

Perhaps Bertie put Edith's name on an insurance policy...

Edited February 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[ShadowFacts]

I was mostly wondering about the general dynamic between family and staff. Not everything has to be about how much posters here dislike Mary.

 

I think that Mary's caustic dig was a low blow, because she meant it to be, and Robert took it that way.  But at the same time, it is also true that Thomas has been targeted for the previous episodes this season when no one else has.  Of course Robert nor Carson knew Thomas was suicidal, and it is true that his reasons for killing himself were multiple.  However, his employment situation was a big part of his decision; he had gotten the latest rejection letter that same morning.  And Baxter did recognize that catalyst when told by Molesley what he had said.  I do find it odd that Robert has recently expressed gratitude for servants' loyalty -- William, Hughes and Carson, Patmore -- but doesn't extend that to Thomas who saved his daughter from a fire and helped find Isis, for all he knows.  As others have mentioned, he has more seniority than Andrew or Molesley, or Bates.  Why target him?  I know, he has an obsolete job description and is disliked, and the family can hire and fire at will and all that, but actions have consequences and Robert and Carson's recent efforts had an unforeseen result that I think both of them were shown to regret.  I'll have to re-watch their reactions.

[SusanSunflower]

Well, Mary's dig was "ironic" given that Tom deliberately approved Mr. Mason's move to Yew Tree Farm in HER absence because it was anticipated she would refuse because of the presumed "loss of revenue" or "cost of tenancy" .... Mary will have her chance to make these sorts of decisions. We've seen Robert play the softie, good-guy so very many times when Carson wanted to sack someone (usually Bates as I recall).  "Everyone" agrees the family needs to economize, but no one seems to be willing to give anything up. We don't even know how much Robert wanted Thomas and his salary off his books. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[PRgal]

Upon reflection, the headline was practically screaming Homo Hexham Dies on Gaycation.

 

Gee, thanks.  I almost spit out my coffee. :P

[photo fox]

I know Edith/Mary inspires a lot of passion, but things are getting pretty circular and heated, and nobody's convincing anybody at this point.

Let's give that poor dead horse a break for a bit and talk about something else. :-)

When I posted this?  I may have used a smilie face, but I WASN'T JOKING. I've received multiple comments from posters that the Downton forum has become virtually unreadable because of the many snippy comments and dead horse beating around the Mary and Edith issue. From ALL sides.  So I'm calling an end.

If you want to discuss Mary and Edith until you turn blue and the cows come home, there's a thread for that. Frankly, that's where many of the posts belong anyway, because this is an episode topic, so Pamuk, the letter, Strallen, none of that belongs here.

 

From this point on, any posts in here that are substantively about Mary/Edith will be deleted without notice.  And please don't try to circumvent this note by saying, "this isn't about Mary/Edith, it's just about how awful Edith/Mary is!!!!"  That's really, really transparent.

 

Also, I think this is a good opportunity to remind everyone about the ignore feature.  If there's another poster (or seven) who just raises your blood pressure, put them on "ignore".  On the top right of the page, click the little person, and then click "Manage Ignore Prefs".  Type their username, check the "Posts" box, and hit "Save".  Their posts will no longer be visible to you (unless someone quotes them).

 

http://i.imgur.com/oZWYDRs.png            http://i.imgur.com/9IKlLUc.png

 

One final note: remember, you're at a party.  That means the mods want to see everyone dial back the passive-aggressive comments directed at each other.  We don't want to have to start handing out warnings.

 

Also, I'd be remiss to not post a HUGE thank you to those who did heed the earlier note.

Edited February 23, 2016 by photo fox

[Diffy]

This probably belongs in another thread, or I could post it after the final finale Christmas Show, but if I go wandering into other threads I'm likely to be spoiled so I don't dare. I wish before disbanding some of the cast had filmed a spoof called "Upside Downton" in which Mrs. Patmore truly is running a house of ill repute, where she allows Bates to rob and murder the wealthy male clients, thus profiting from his uncontrollable urge to kill. Anna keeps silent for fear of him and prays her baby won't carry the bad seed. Thomas really IS a vampire, and can't move far from the Abbey because his casket is hidden in the catacombs below. (The suicide attempt was actually a "feed" gone a bit wrong, so he posed as a suicide.)

 

Mrs. Hughes does in Mr. Carson with a frying pan in the cottage kitchen, and Daisy and Andrew bury him in Mr. Mason's pig pens. Tom and Henry are a gay couple, now happily living under the same roof and "tinkering with cars" all day long behind the closed doors of the garage. Mary conveniently has no interest in their cars yet she often goes on week-long sketching trips. Bertie's mother forces him to marry his Hexam cousin who has wealth and a title but is sickly and lacks inner spark -- a '20s version of Lady Catherine deBourgh's daughter Anne in Pride and Prejudice. Edith's magazine becomes the leading ladies' publication of the day, a sort of early Ms. She then runs for a seat in Parliament and wins. Isobel recommends Bates as a temporary valet to Larry Merton, who dies shortly before his wedding due to a strange accident which Sgt. Willis chooses not to investigate because no one actually cares that Larry is dead. Evelyn Napier writes a bestselling novel about the cruel, haughty, sexually debauched daughter of an Earl, who runs an estate while waiting for her young son to inherit the title...

 

This really made me howl with laughter because my mind was wandering in a very similar direction. Thanks.

 

In my fantasy ending there were a couple of differences:  Mary was the victim of a dastardly plot by Tom and Henry.  Those two have secretly been in love for months having met in Boston at some US car rally.  Henry doesn't care about Mary's past peccadillos with Pamuk and Lord Boringham, or her bitchiness, because she's only a beard! 

 

Edith decided that she missed a bullet over Bertie.  He came over as a complete Mama's boy in this episode and his mother sounds like the mother-in-law from hell.  Edith takes Marigold and goes to live in London where her magazine becomes a huge success.  Edith sends Marigold to a good school where she learns more than French, prejudice and dance steps.  Marigold goes on to Oxford University and becomes a Member of Parliament.  She ends up as Prime Minister instead of Margaret Thatcher.

 

Edith goes back to writing wonderful articles and books (her writing was how she got involved with Gregson in the first place back in Season 2.)  She becomes a member of the Bloomsbury Group.  They are such swingers they don't care about her being an unwed mother, and Edith has a series of wonderful affairs with intelligent and creative men who appreciate her for who she is.  She finally settles down with someone much nicer and with more backbone than Bertie.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Diffy

[helenamonster]

I wonder if Edith will ever allow Marigold to address her as "Mummy" the way George calls Mary?  We've never heard her speak, but I also wonder if she calls Robert "Donk" the way the other kids do...

 

She does. Robert said she could call him Donk in last year's CS.

 

There was no home to wreck (if a third party can ever do it) as Gregson and his wife hadn't lived together for years. And Gregson could have divorced her a long ago before he met Edith. (Or are Britain's divorce laws still the same?)

 

Gregson couldn't divorce his wife, that's why he had to go to Germany in the first place. If he established citizenship there, their laws would allow him to divorce.

 

So Mary entered into that quickie marriage to Henry without giving him a "test drive"? I'd have made certain to check under the hood.

 

Lol honestly. Especially considering how important something like that was to her last season.

 

I think what bugs me about the quickie marriage the most is that for so long, even before Henry, Mary has wanted to be careful about who her second husband was. She even said as much in this episode; there's no reason to get it wrong the second time. And she seemed so unconvinced about Henry for so long (for most of this episode it felt like she outright hated him, to be honest) that to suddenly call him back and get married that weekend was so outrageous. I guess I could buy it if I felt that they really did love each other, but I don't, so it falls flat.

 

Mary knows even less about him.  Were any of Henry's family even at his wedding?  What secrets does he have in his past? 

 

Lady Shackleton was there, she's his aunt. I assume other family members of his were there as well, we just don't know them. Neither does Mary, to your point.

 

I know Mary was not at her best this episode, but in the scene when she was talking to Violet and she said something like, "Edith is just so..." and then made this face that just made me die laughing. I cannot stress enough how on fire Michelle Dockery was this episode.

[Roseanna]

This really made me howl with laughter because my mind was wandering in a very similar direction. Thanks.

 

In my fantasy ending there were a couple of differences:  Mary was the victim of a dastardly plot by Tom and Henry.  Those two have secretly been in love for months having met in Boston at some US car rally.  Henry doesn't care about Mary's past peccadillos with Pamuk and Lord Boringham, or her bitchiness, because she's only a beard! 

 

LOL!

 

Actually this could be true in some Gothic romance where an innocent heroine (which Mary can't be called) is trapped. Tom really was far too much interested to get Mary married with Henry and got so much better with him than she. 

[marceline]

Why they bothered to bring Tom back is a complete mystery to me. He never even mentions America. He was in Boston, right? With its giant Irish community? And yet he never even makes an offhand remark about driving on the "wrong" side of the road or Sybbie missing her friends or anything. It's like he got mindwiped by Doctor Who.

Edited February 23, 2016 by marceline

[Roseanna]

Yes, Mary felt a pang-of-remorse and blamed Robert ... but we saw no indication that it registered that her future "career" would be occasioned by making decisions that proved unpopular and/or a hardship on others, decisions that could not be blamed on Tom or Robert.  

 

A good point but, given what Mary had just experienced verbal lashing from Tom and Edith, it would really ask her too much. 

 

However, her usual partiality showed that she didn't blame her favorite Carson. She is as blind to his faults as he is to hers, although she doesn't of course know how badly he treated Thomas.   

[Roseanna]

As far as I recall, we haven't seen the Granthams solicit their friends who might need someone of Thomas' skills,

 

No, although Violet tried to get Moseley a job as a butler with her friend (Lady Schackleton?), so it would be likely. At least because they don't know Thomas's numerous foul acts for which it would be wrong to recommend him to friends.  

 

But I think that the real reason is the quality of scriptwriting Fellowes is used: he is more interested in plots than characters. Obviously he thought first that Thomas' suicide attempt would make a good plot and then he thought how he would get him to do it. He doesn't particularly care if there are some loose ends or if the characters behave inconsistently (of course real persons do that also).

[guilfoyleatpp]

I loved that Isobel stood her ground with Miss Cruikshank "You may speak for Larry, but I must hear it from Larry."

I am curious where that will go. Will Larry swallow his considerable pride and invite Isobel to be part of the family to make his wife happy? Is he even aware of her machinations?

[ScoobieDoobs]

I'd like watch him polish Isobel's shoes clean with his evil tongue.  And Crookskank & the crap brother can join in too.

 

Oh, and let's see Carson cleaning up after the new pup's pee & poop.  You deserve that neato assignment after your latest cranky bullshit, Carson, you asshole.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ScoobieDoobs

[RedHawk]

Resurrecting these zingers because they deserve notice and may have gotten lost in the Mary vs Edith roundabout.

 

This priceless rewrite of the headline "ENGLISH MARQUESS DIES IN TANGIERS":

Upon reflection, the headline was practically screaming Homo Hexham Dies on Gaycation.

 

 

 

And this jewel of understated sarcasm:

Oh good, I was afraid that Mary wasn't going to get her happy ending.

 

 

I don't know who said it but I thought that "Mary had more chemistry with that tombstone than with Henry Talbot" was a succinct and hilarious bit of criticism. 

[dangwoodchucks]

Isobel needs to let go of the Dickie drama and get with Dr. Clarkson. If he grows out his hair and adds a goatee he can look like his portrayer's ImdB picture. Yow!

[LiveenLetLive]

This has bothered me for years, WHY did JF bother making Thomas gay when he did nothing with it? What was the point? Since he was unwilling to give the character romance and wasn't truly dedicated to making him evil, TB took up completely useless space in the series. I find it interesting that "Gosford Park" seemed to have been tightly plotted while Downtown was all over the place--pretty poorly written in fact. I watched it without commitment, and I am someone who bought the DVD of Gosford because I loved it so much.

[Driad]

For George's sake I hope Mary made it clear that she would not pay for Henry's racing cars etc. Also that George will not get into car racing and off himself the way Matthew did.

If they had to locate yet another heir, and it turned out to be someone in the series, whom would you choose? Thomas?

[Avaleigh]

This has bothered me for years, WHY did JF bother making Thomas gay when he did nothing with it? What was the point? Since he was unwilling to give the character romance and wasn't truly dedicated to making him evil, TB took up completely useless space in the series. I find it interesting that "Gosford Park" seemed to have been tightly plotted while Downtown was all over the place--pretty poorly written in fact. I watched it without commitment, and I am someone who bought the DVD of Gosford because I loved it so much.

I think the commentary by Julian Fellowes on the Gosford DVD is a *must* for anyone who is a fan of Downton. Lots of cool stuff in there. Interesting too that Highclere was considered for shooting for this movie. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Isobel needs to let go of the Dickie drama and get with Dr. Clarkson. If he grows out his hair and adds a goatee he can look like his portrayer's ImdB picture. Yow!

Of course the fact that I don't like Dr. Clarkson might play into this, but I'd hazard a guess that Clarkson would become for Isobel what Carson has been for Mrs. Hughes. Isobel is too empowered to want to "submit" to Dr. Clarkson the way he'd probably want her to do. I'm really just basing this on her interactions with the two of them, and how Dr. Clarkson has always acted annoyed by her whereas Merton is in awe. I don't think Merton would ever want her to change, but rather tag along for the ride.

[izabella]

Does anyone remember if Henry ever met George?

[jrlr]

For George's sake I hope Mary made it clear that she would not pay for Henry's racing cars etc. Also that George will not get into car racing and off himself the way Matthew did.

If they had to locate yet another heir, and it turned out to be someone in the series, whom would you choose? Thomas?

Daisy - that would turn things upside down! 

 

I'm puzzled by the way Mary was able to immediately get over her justified reluctance about marrying someone who races cars.  She completely broke down when talking about not wanting to be a racing widow again, and in my opinion no matter how (unconvincingly) she claims to love Henry-the-bore, that would seem to be a true stumbling block to marriage.  Why would she want to tie herself to someone she is terrified may never come back every single time he walks out the door to go to the track?  She's not a kid - she's now in her 30s and has already had the supposedly great love of her life, so if she wants to marry someone suitable, she could make do with someone a lot less risk-taking.  Of course this problem exists mostly because the writing has had Mary and Henry act like two ice cubes floating by each other in a punch bow, not like two passionately involved people.  

[WatchrTina]

The New York Times has weighed in with review of the episode:  http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/21/arts/television/downton-abbey-season-6-episode-8-lady-mary-that-skinny-you-know-what.html?WT.mc_id=2016-FEBRUARY-OUTBRAIN-ARTS_ADRISK-0101-0131&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVRISK&_r=0

 

This was my favorite bit:

 

 

Michelle Dockery was so touching in this scene that I almost didn’t notice how perfectly her off-white ensemble coordinated with Matthew’s headstone and the surrounding church. It was like an issue of Martha Stewart Grieving.

 

And this bit raised a question:

 

Edith at least got to finish the episode on a bright note, beaming down on her love child (who, in an act of questionable taste, was cavorting with her two cousins around Sybil’s headstone).

Was that Sybil's grave?  They focused on it so long I thought I was supposed to recognize it but I could not read the name.

[peggy06]

So Mary entered into that quickie marriage to Henry without giving him a "test drive"? I'd have made certain to check under the hood.

Lol honestly. Especially considering how important something like that was to her last season.

I think what bugs me about the quickie marriage the most is that for so long, even before Henry, Mary has wanted to be careful about who her second husband was. She even said as much in this episode; there's no reason to get it wrong the second time. And she seemed so unconvinced about Henry for so long (for most of this episode it felt like she outright hated him, to be honest) that to suddenly call him back and get married that weekend was so outrageous. I guess I could buy it if I felt that they really did love each other, but I don't, so it falls flat.

 

 

 

I'm puzzled by the way Mary was able to immediately get over her justified reluctance about marrying someone who races cars.  She completely broke down when talking about not wanting to be a racing widow again, and in my opinion no matter how (unconvincingly) she claims to love Henry-the-bore, that would seem to be a true stumbling block to marriage.  Why would she want to tie herself to someone she is terrified may never come back every single time he walks out the door to go to the track?  She's not a kid - she's now in her 30s and has already had the supposedly great love of her life, so if she wants to marry someone suitable, she could make do with someone a lot less risk-taking.  Of course this problem exists mostly because the writing has had Mary and Henry act like two ice cubes floating by each other in a punch bow, not like two passionately involved people.

 

 

I think what they were getting at is that Mary already tried being careful about selecting a "suitable" second husband, and it brought her nothing but unhappiness and boredom. We're meant to see that she fell head over heels for Henry, and both Tom and Violet are counseling her to follow the impulses of her heart. So she does. With more build-up, better writing, and better chemistry, it could have been a very romantic moment. But, like Helena Monster said in the sentence I bolded, it just hasn't come across that way (the head-over-heels passion stuff). So it falls flat. It also doesn't help to put this development in the same episode where Mary does the Thing That Shall Not Be Named, and has basically forfeited the audience's sympathetic interest.

 

I think the above could also apply to Henry's creepy attempts at dominating Mary. But the two of them ain't Scarlett and Rhett. It just came off as jarring and stalkerish.

 

I do agree that the car-racing is a sticky point that will need to be worked out, and the show has glossed over it so far. We'll see what happens in the CS.

Edited February 24, 2016 by peggy06

[Constantinople]

Question... obviously George is heir to the earldom, since he is the son of Matthew who was the heir before his death.  But I recall that there is talk that Matthew made Mary is heir.  What is the effect of this?  I think it's that it gave her half of the house, right?  But not the title?  When Robert dies, then George becomes the 8th (or 6th) Earl of Grantham.  I believe Mary will always be known as Lady Mary Crawley (or I suppose now, Lady Mary Talbot), but she doesn't have a title.  When George becomes Earl does she get any kind of courtesy title?  When Henry Tudor became Henry VII, Margaret Beaufort started considering herself a queen and called herself Margaret Regina.  Is Mary going to get anything, or no?

 

What happens if George dies while a child?  Then we have season 1 issues all over again, right?  Much like how Bertie is the surprise new Marquess I am curious as to who is next in line to the earldom behind George.  When did England change to allow females to inherit titles?  Was that not until Elizabeth II ascended?

See the Who's got questions? thread

[Gladrags]

Violet, Burke's peerage incarnate, visits "the South of France".

 

Now the 6th Marquess of Hexham is dead.

 

Malaria my ass.

LMAO! Grandmotherly love ... 

 

What the heck have they done to Carson? He was never this bad before. I still think he's a goner.

 

Carson's always been a snob and a little bit cruel, remembering how he treated his one-time showbiz partner. But his behavior was over the top in this episode. 

I am so distracted by the title of "Marquess." It seems like that should be a woman's title!

 

I still haven't adjusted to the British pronunciation of valet.

 I do find it odd that Robert has recently expressed gratitude for servants' loyalty -- William, Hughes and Carson, Patmore -- but doesn't extend that to Thomas who saved his daughter from a fire and helped find Isis, for all he knows.  As others have mentioned, he has more seniority than Andrew or Molesley, or Bates.  Why target him?  I know, he has an obsolete job description and is disliked, and the family can hire and fire at will and all that, but actions have consequences and Robert and Carson's recent efforts had an unforeseen result that I think both of them were shown to regret.  I'll have to re-watch their reactions.

Thomas should have been fired back in 1912 when he framed Bates for stealing from Robert's collection of whatever it was he was collecting. Thomas has always been a one step forward, two steps back kind of person (and don't forget that he locked Isis up in that shed in the first place), and the years of malicious behavior seem to have had a cumulative effect with Carson. His outing Gwen disgusted Robert, and the rest of the family as well. So I don't find it odd at all. 

[WatchrTina]

One thing I thought did ring true was that moment after the breakfast fiasco when Tom finds Mary sitting alone in the Agent's office.  For all her protestations to Tom (whose not buying it), the first thing she did after that scene at the table was to make herself scarce.  I don't recall ever seeing Mary in that office before.  As far as I'm concerned she was totally hiding out there.

[Crs97]

All I could think about when I watched Mary at Matthew's tombstone was how profoundly difficult it must have been for Michelle to give that speech considering her fiancé's illness.  Between that scene and her scene with Lady Violet, I was in tears.  She did a wonderful job.

 

I wish Mary and Edith's fight scene could have been longer and better written.  I thought they needed a dialogue where everything could be out on the table.  Frankly, it would have been an interesting trip through all the seasons to hear some of those names again, but instead we just got Edith's rant without Mary saying anything.  I mentioned it before; I knew JF would rewrite history so that only Mary is responsible, and I was extremely disappointed to be right.

 

I loved Robert with his dog.  "Mama is on my last nerve."  "She gave you a puppy."  "That's right.  All is forgiven!" (with the best smile).

 

I like Mary and Henry together, but on any other show Henry's "I will make it impossible for you to leave me" would have been accompanied by foreboding music and then followed by the terrified female lead fleeing from the clearly dangerous situation.

 

When will Anna start showing?

[Avaleigh]

The New York Times has weighed in with review of the episode:  http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/21/arts/television/downton-abbey-season-6-episode-8-lady-mary-that-skinny-you-know-what.html?WT.mc_id=2016-FEBRUARY-OUTBRAIN-ARTS_ADRISK-0101-0131&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVRISK&_r=0

 

This was my favorite bit:

 

 

And this bit raised a question:

Was that Sybil's grave?  They focused on it so long I thought I was supposed to recognize it but I could not read the name.

I loved that the kids were running around Sybil's grave. To me it was like imagining how she'd be happy to see the kids playing together. I thought it was a beautiful scene and Edith looked very sweet while she was watching them. I loved the sunlight shining through her hat because it gave her this glow. In that moment I would not have thought that she was suffering from the disappointment of Bertie. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Avaleigh

[whatsatool]

Miss Bates really was irritating - she got to Emma's nerves.

But that's not the point but that Emma was criticized for being a minor fault because it showed her heartless and she had to redeem herself before she got her happy end. Mary did a great wrong and although she was severely criticized by Tom, she didn't redeem herself but got married straight away.

Also, Austen didn't accept Mary and Henry Crawford in Mansfield Park even if they were lively and witty ​because they lacked moral sense.

Mansfield Park was dreadful. Don't get me started. Miss Bates wasn't engaged to the Marquess. I think Mary could be happy with Tom or Henry but she won't be gaga over any second husband. Edited February 24, 2016 by whatsatool

[ShadowFacts]

 

When will Anna start showing?

 

And will she continue working through the pregnancy, how was it done in those days, in those jobs?

 

 

Thomas should have been fired back in 1912 when he framed Bates for stealing from Robert's collection of whatever it was he was collecting. Thomas has always been a one step forward, two steps back kind of person (and don't forget that he locked Isis up in that shed in the first place), and the years of malicious behavior seem to have had a cumulative effect with Carson. His outing Gwen disgusted Robert, and the rest of the family as well. So I don't find it odd at all.

 

Robert didn't know about Thomas locking up the dog.  Yes, he could have been fired numerous times, he's been very bad indeed.  But he wasn't, and it looks like he's got another reprieve in view of how Robert and Carson both reacted.  Some people get all the luck.

[j5cochran]

On a lighter note -- "Golly gumdrops! What a turn-up!"

 

How many times did they have to film that scene before everyone could do it with a straight face?  I bet Hugh Bonneville just cackled.

 

 

[Kohola3]

From the NY Times review, my vote for the best line:  Mrs. Patmore, whose B & B has been mistaken for Ye Olde House of Strumpetry...

 

Hee!

[Artymouse]

I liked how Cora was such the cautious pragmatist to Robert's excited kid. "Yippee! Edith is going to be a marchioness! Who woulda thunk it!" And Cora is the realist trying to, to borrow a phrase from Violet, ration her excitement. "Take a chill pill, she's not married YET."

When you think about it, if both Robert and Cora were living up to the cultural norms that the show always reminds us of, then Cora the American would have been jumping up and down with glee while Robert the reserved Englishman would have had a cautiously positive response.

[izabella]

From the NY Times review, my vote for the best line:  Mrs. Patmore, whose B & B has been mistaken for Ye Olde House of Strumpetry...

 

Hee!

 

I would watch that if it were a show!