S06.E06: Season 6, Episode 6

[Roseanna]

I don't think Fellows intended this but I'm on Lady Violet's side in the Hospital President Feud.  This is a volunteer position for which she has given her time, prestige, effort and money for years.  Now it's been jerked out from under her and handed to someone else without a word of notice, appreciation or consideration. The powers that be should have talked to her before ever mentioning the position to Cora.  They could have asked her if she felt she could still give it her all since the decision didn't go her way and they could have told her that it was soon to become more time consuming.   Left up to Violet, she probably would have decided it was a good time to step down.  But no one did that, which showed a glaring lack of gratitude for all the effort Violet has given the hospital over the years.  Lady Cora understood all this and was entirely wrong to accept the position behind Violet's back.  I don't care if she does want "work," to do, just pushing Violet out and walking over her was very wrong.  IMHO.

 

Unfortunately there are olde people, and Violet seems to be one of them, who never step down voluntarily, and thereby can  cause much damage. That doesn't in irl exclude that they shouldn't be told honestly and showing them gratitude for their past input.

 

However, the show needs secrets and drama.

[Roseanna]

Bertie is nice, and I like him with Edith, so I hope they get the happily-ever-after ending. Everyone seemed so surprised when he essentially took over the planning for the house tour, like "we should rope off the stairs? We should have tour guides? Do you really think people would steal our stuff?" They seemed pretty clueless, so I'm glad he was there to offer sensible advice.

 

And this was a man whom Atticus described as "pitiable" in CS!

 

So far, he has seemed to be kind, helpful and sensible. His organizational skills were probably learned in the army but are useful also in his job as an agent.

 

He evidently lacks self-confidence ("pushing my luck" when kissing Edith) and, as he said in CS, he isn't ambitious. But it seems that if he is given a duty, he will carry it out well.   

[RedHawk]

The sign read "6d." so yes, the fee for the house tour was sixpence. Six shillings would have been too much for most of the villagers to pay, and Moseley was handing out flyers to the local folks.

I think the family was amazed they could raise so much for the hospital fund from just local folks paying sixpence, and Tom was leading them to imagine charging more and attracting "tourists" from further afield who could pay more. THAT money would be used to pay for the house's upkeep.

I liked that many of the folks on the tour were shown to be educated and interested in art and history. The family thought they were coming to gawk and had no idea people on the rungs below them would care about such things. It was a good way to illustrate how behind the times and out of touch most of the Crawleys have gotten.

Edited February 8, 2016 by RedHawk

[iMonrey]

 

Was the earl who collected women and horses Violet's late husband, or one of his progenitors?

 

It was the 4th Earl, and Robert is the 7th Earl, so it would have been his great-grandfather. But I'm a little confused about the fictional timeline of Downton Abbey. If it's meant to be one of the monasteries that were seized by Henry the VIII after the Reformation it would have been at least 200 years later that the Earl of Grantham first owned and renovated it. Robert's great grandfather would have been living somewhere in the 1800s I imagine. 

 

It was very meta of them to open the house for tours, but I thought this was one of the funniest things I've ever seen on the show. None of them really know much about the house or the furnishings or the artwork. Cora never noticed the empty shields over the fireplace, Mary doesn't know who's in the various paintings. It's not something I would have expected, them being so ignorant of everything they've lived with all their lives.

 

I thought Mrs. Patmore was out of line tattling to Mr. Carson what she thought was going on between Thomas and Andy, and a little out of character too.

[Roseanna]

I'm hoping that all this culminates with someone, maybe Tom, Robert, or Cora, telling Mary that everyone else in the family (and a good number of staff people) all have known for some time but they decided to keep it from her because of the general agreement that she's an awful human being who would use the information to score cheap points against her sister and would end up hurting the child.

 

One must remember that it wasn't their secret to tell. The decision to tell was only in Edith's hands, and she only told Rosamund. All others had figured out on her own.

[Constantinople]

I got a kick out of Violet and Isobel discussing Pride and Prejudice. I like how they've developed this friendship over the course of the series. Remember what a chilly start they got off to from day one?

 

I enjoyed the reference to Elizabeth Bennet because Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, starring Lady Rose as Elizabeth Bennet, opened to general release in the United States last Friday, two days before this episode aired in the US (I believe PPZ is scheduled to open in the UK this Friday).

 

I don't know if that's coincidence or a deliberate call out from Julian Fellowes.

 

Regardless, I suppose it is another example of the times, they are a changin'

[proserpina65]

God, Mary was being such a bitch about Marigold when she was talking to Tom!  The only charitable spin I can put on that conversation is maybe she was trying to get a rise out of him so that he'd tell her what was going on.

 

And there is no chemistry between her and Talbot.  I wish the show had continued to pair her up with Charles Blake; he's the only one of her suitors since Matthew's death with whom she's had any chemistry whatsoever.  But hell, she had more with Evelyn Napier than she does with Talbot.

 

Whereas Edith and Bertie seem to be very comfortable and good together.  Hopefully he'll take the eventual reveal about Marigold well.

[Diane M]

I thought Mrs. Patmore was out of line tattling to Mr. Carson what she thought was going on between Thomas and Andy, and a little out of character too.

 

No one trusts Thomas, and Mrs. Patmore has known about his gayness since the first season.  I think she was just concerned for Andy.

 

The dinner scenes with Carson and Mrs. Hughes are rather humorous.  I imagine we'll see her explode before the end of the season.  If a perfect meal is so important to His Highness, why didn't he propose to Mrs. Patmore?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Diane M

[roomtorome]

I will be  pleased if Edith and Bertie are the ones who end up with the interesting, engaging life of a real partnership/love affair, living in London, partly running the magazine and spending time at Downton when they want - and Mary just winds up with a pretty boy who drives fast cars.  Mary is irredeemable to me (just my opinion) - so, I hope she gets the dud of a guy because boy, is he dull.

 

Does seem a set up for Thomas considering suicide which I, for one, I hope they don't do - there is drama and then there is melodrama and that, to me, would be an unfortunate way to end for the character -  not that it is not possibly realistic, just that I would rather they don't go in that direction and I don't care for the character but....

 

MS can turn shit into gold and diamonds.  The gestures, the line readings - she is just amazing.  I don't care so much anymore what she says - I just enjoy watching what she does with all the dreadful dialogue - no one else comes close to her talent for turning this crap into something amusing and watchable - 

 

Tom seems to be there mostly as a plot device: someone for Mary to express her thoughts/feelings to - a sounding board device that loads of mediocre/bad writers throw in because they aren't bothered with writing well - again, my opinion.  The cars being friends/enemies line? Good god - sounds like something a kid would write - so embarrassingly bad.

 

Next time I see Hughes and Carson sit down at that table, I want her to put a plate in front of only her chair, a bottle of wine and just dig in while the pompous ass stares at her incredulously, sputtering insults - doubt that would happen but he would not be getting one morsel of food from me - I kept wanting her to just tell him to "get it yourself and knock it off with the 'my lord' crap" - 

[fishcakes]

I do feel sorry for Thomas, but I can see why many wouldn't. JF has gone back and forth with him as to whether he's a conniving schemer or someone who tries to do the right thing. There was a chance to have him show some character growth after his falling out with O'Brien and her departure, but instead he was used as a convenient villain whenever Fellowes felt the story called for one. That last scene with him and Carson was brutal, though; I don't think Carson knows about the shit that Thomas pulled with Baxter (and by extension the Bateses) so that business about how Thomas's word was not enough was just about Carson's long-standing grudge against Thomas.

 

Before last night I was neutral to/felt sorry for Bertie, but he's turned out to be a presumptuous bore, so I'm happy enough that he's going to be saddled with Edith. She was as nasty as ever last night, to Mary obviously because Edith will never fucking grow up, but also managed to insult Tom twice in the process.

 

Daisy. Carson. Larry's fiance. All of you please stop talking.

 

Mary and Henry are no more interesting together than Mary and Gillingham. I don't want her and Tom to end up together either because they're basically siblings now, and she has said she only wants to marry for love, so I hope they leave her single. Or maybe Evelyn could finally make a move and surprise everyone with their amazing and previously hidden chemistry. There are only a couple of episodes left though, so ... doubtful.

[Llywela]

It was the 4th Earl, and Robert is the 7th Earl, so it would have been his great-grandfather. But I'm a little confused about the fictional timeline of Downton Abbey. If it's meant to be one of the monasteries that were seized by Henry the VIII after the Reformation it would have been at least 200 years later that the Earl of Grantham first owned and renovated it. Robert's great grandfather would have been living somewhere in the 1800s I imagine.

Did they say it was the 1st Earl who renovated the Abbey into a stately home? A lot of the old Abbeys and Monasteries ended up in private hands and were converted into stately homes after the Reformation (not always immediately after - some lay derelict for a long time before being re-purposed). It could well have changed hands a few times before reaching the Crawley family - or the Crawleys could have owned the property since the Reformation, but it was a few generations later before they were elevated to the peerage. Or they could have had a lesser title before the first Earl was granted his earldom.

[SusanSunflower]

Didn't care for this episode -- it felt one-off , verging on slapstick with Violet, Carson and the whole "clueless" family ... The not-distant financial crisis would have educated everyone on what was museum quality and what sale-price might be commanded by the discrete "private" sale of most large items. Cora, Mary (and even Edith) would have been interested the current value of items they had lived with for decades.  It's just not credible that they would have not known... even Simon Bricker's (Richard E. Grant) interest would not have been limited to the one painting ... the one they did sell later (for reasons I really can't remember, except it reminded Robert of Bricker).

 

Yes, Carson is cruising for a bruising ... and Violet has received her comeuppance (If the board is too afraid to tell you in person you've been desposed,  you might infer there is a serious, deeply felt and long-standing problem).  Isobel as blushing, fending off suitors, under Violet's sisterly eye ... just no. 

 

Daisy was awful. It's going to be hard to have a feel-good ending no matter how well she aces the exam and sees a yellow-brick-road unfold in front of her. (Might be interesting if she fails or just barely passes, but she won't) Baxter's indecision wrt "the man who ruined her life" was simply squicky and unbelievable -- as was Moseley effectively issuing an personal ultimatum... and we await Baxter's decision next week. 

 

Again, I think we are supposed to see clearly that (inexplicably) Mary is utterly smitten with Henry  (he gets her engine purring). She quite publicly, for all to see, is dangling herself in front of him, and using Tom this time as her "gay best friend." Ugh. Why Henry has developed an overwhelming desire to marry her is utterly unexplained as is his positive reaction to her "seduction"  -- except in a "men like women who play hard to get, but not too hard to get."  There's not enough time left for Mary to nearly lose Henry or (having lost Henry) brazenly resolutely determine to "think about that tomorrow."  Tom will handsomely replace Carson (slavish lacky) when he retires and likely become hated as a class-traitor by (loyally) siding with Mary against the tenants. Mary will ensure that Tom making decisions independent of her approval, like that of Mr. Mason's farm, will never happen again. 

 

The whole episode left a bad taste in my mouth.  I didn't understand Merton's future daughter-in-law's cat-that-ate-the-canary self-assurance. My attention flagged,  I may have missed things. Forgive me, there were too many anvils. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Avaleigh]

The Stately Homes of England by Noel Coward

Lord Elderly, Lord Borrowmere

Lord Sickert and Lord Camp

With every virtue, every grace

Ah, what avails the sceptred race

Here you see the four of us

And there are so many more of us

Eldest sons

That must succeed

We know how Caesar conquered Gaul

And how to whack a cricket ball

Apart from this, our education

Lacks co-ordination

Though we're young

And tentative

And rather rip-representative

Scions of a noble breed

We are the products of those homes

Serene and stately

That only lately

Seem to have run to seed

The stately homes of England

How beautiful they stand

To prove the upper classes

Have still the upper hand

Though the fact that they have to be rebuilt

And frequently mortgaged to the hilt

Is inclined to take the gilt

Off the gingerbread

And certainly damps the fun

Of the eldest son

But still, we won't be beaten

We'll scrimp and scrape and save

The playing fields of Eton

Have made us frightfully brave

And though if the Van Dycks have to go

And we pawn the Bechstein Grand

We'll stand

By the stately homes of England

We have been able to dispose of

Rows and rows and rows of

Gainsboroughs and Lawrences

Some sporting prints of Aunt Florence's

Some of which were rather rude

Although we sometimes

Flaunt our family conventions

Our good intentions

Mustn't be misconstrued

The stately homes of England

We proudly represent

We only keep them up

For Americans to rent

Though the pipes that supply the bathroom burst

And the lavatory makes you fear the worst

It was used by Charles I

(Quite informally)

And later by George IV

On a journey north

The state departments keep their

Historical renown

It's wiser not to sleep there

In case they tumble down

But still, if they ever catch on fire

Which, with any luck, they might

We'll fight

For the stately homes of England

The stately homes of England

Though rather in the lurch

Provide a lot of chances

For psychical research

There's the ghost

Of a crazy younger son

Who murdered in 1351

An extremely rowdy nun

Who resented it

And people who come to call

Meet her in the hall

The baby in the guest wing

Who crouches by the grate

Was walled up in the west wing

In 1428

If anyone spots

The Queen of Scots

In a hand-embroidered shroud

We're proud

Of the stately homes of England

This is also used in the opening credits for a film with Cary Grant called The Grass is Greener which deals with an earl and countess who have to open up their estate to the public because of financial issues they're dealing with. 

[proserpina65]

The casual sniping between Mary and Edith is still ever present. In this episode it was kicked off by Edith, as usual, when she responded to Mary's simple of question of whether or not she'd mind if Mary and Tom go to London overnight

 

Actually Mary started it by replying very snarkily to Edith's comment about having been to the restaurant in question with Michael Gregson.

[helenamonster]

Did someone suggest that he was pining over Mary?  I thought he was the one who turned her down.

 

Nah, dude's been pining since the ill-fated Pamuk visit, and probably even before then. Although at the end of the Pamuk episode, he acknowledged that Mary doesn't find him interesting and he'd prefer to find someone who does. But I guess he's still always carried a little bit of a torch for her.

 

It's not that new - in Pride and Prejudice Elizabeth and her aunt and uncle tip the housekeeper to show them around Pemberley while the family are away, and that was written in the 1890s. Gentlefolk would take tours around stately homes going way back - but always when the family were away, and always gentlefolk. What was new was opening a house to the general public for cash, allowing common folk in. Downton's first true step into the modern era!

 

Yes, this is what I'm referring to, big houses being open to the public and essentially operating as museums. I feel like I've been to so many of them here in the States, and have been going to them for so much of my life, that I never considered that there was once a time where that was not a common practice.

 

How many episodes are left? Do we have three, including Christmas special?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Exactly.  And I thought I heard a couple people in this episode - maybe Tom and Molesley? - refer to Violet as old lady Grantham.  If so, is that acceptable, and I've just never heard it before?  I thought I've heard her usually referred to as the Dowager.  Seemed a little disrespectful, but maybe it wasn't, and only a way to distinguish Cora from Violet when people are talking. 

 

People have been calling her Old Lady Grantham since Season 1, I believe, though not to her face. It's just a shorthand way to differentiate her from Cora, I don't think anyone means any disrespect by it.

 

I thought Mrs. Patmore was out of line tattling to Mr. Carson what she thought was going on between Thomas and Andy, and a little out of character too.

 

Eh, I don't know. If she saw Thomas and one of the young maids having secret little conversations she probably would have reported it as well.

[skyways]

In Season one Hughes referred to the Dowager as 'old bat' ( to the poster who thougth that how she was addressed was disrespectful).

 

Nah, dude's been pining since the ill-fated Pamuk visit, and probably even before then. Although at the end of the Pamuk episode, he acknowledged that Mary doesn't find him interesting and he'd prefer to find someone who does. But I guess he's still always carried a little bit of a torch for her

A great example of Fellowes rubbish writing atimes. It doesn't make any sense.

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by skyways

[Milburn Stone]

Actually Mary started it by replying very snarkily to Edith's comment about having been to the restaurant in question with Michael Gregson.

 

Yeah, this is how I saw it too. In fact, in the whole six seasons, this struck me as one of the most vicious things Mary ever said to Edith. All Edith remarked is that she'd frequently been to the restaurant with Michael. Mary treated this as if it were tantamount to Edith having contaminated the restaurant just by her presence. Even as used to unpleasant snark from Mary as I am, this shocked me.

[poeticlicensed]

Yeah, this is how I saw it too. In fact, in the whole six seasons, this struck me as one of the most vicious things Mary ever said to Edith. All Edith remarked is that she'd frequently been to the restaurant with Michael. Mary treated this as if it were tantamount to Edith having contaminated the restaurant just by her presence. Even as used to unpleasant snark from Mary as I am, this shocked me.

That's another thing that irritates about this show. Either someone is a saint or they are vile. No in between, no nuances, no layers, no ambiguity. Anna is a saint, Edith is a saint, Mary is a  bitch, Violet is a bitch, Isabel is a saint. 

 

Probably the only character that has any layers at all is Thomas. He's mostly evil, but every once in a while he does something not evil. 

[KLovestoShop]

Actually Mary started it by replying very snarkily to Edith's comment about having been to the restaurant in question with Michael Gregson.

Exactly  It was when Mary said "Do you have to put a damper on every restaurant in the capital?",  Edith just made the comment that she had been there with Michael and there wasn't anything nasty about that.  And Edith was right when Tom asked if she could be happy for Mary and Edith responded that she'll be as happy for Mary as Mary would be for her.   Mary started another thing when asking if Bertie was "worth it" and Edith had her reply of "is your car mechanic worth it".   Both are snarky, but Mary seems to start most of it.  

 

I had to laugh when Carson was taking to Thomas about leaving Downton and said that if Anna left, he doubted that Lady Mary would replace her.  But later in the episode, Mary made a snarky comment when Anna was late coming back and Mary said "I was afraid I would have to dress myself".   You'd bet your behind she'd hire a new lady's maid right away.  Woman can't even untie her robe, for God's sake.  

 

OK, is Evelyn gay?   

[izabella]

Edith is no saint.  The way she treated the Drewes is evidence of that. 

[KLovestoShop]

My Computer is acting up and posting things twice.

Edited February 8, 2016 by KLovestoShop

[Constantinople]

I suspect it was entirely scripted, but part of me likes to think that Elizabeth McGovern, Michelle Dockery and Laura Carmichael were asked to give a walk through as tour guides for the rest of the cast and crew, using only what they knew or picked-up over the years, and that formed the basis for their scenes.

 

It was the 4th Earl, and Robert is the 7th Earl, so it would have been his great-grandfather.

If it went from father-to-son over-and-over. For some reason I think it did, but there are other possibilities. Uncle (4th Earl) to nephew (5th earl), grandfather-to-grandson (as will likely occur with George unless he's killed in a freak automobile accident while being driven by none other than Henry Talbot), etc.

 

But I'm a little confused about the fictional timeline of Downton Abbey. If it's meant to be one of the monasteries that were seized by Henry the VIII after the Reformation it would have been at least 200 years later that the Earl of Grantham first owned and renovated it. Robert's great grandfather would have been living somewhere in the 1800s I imagine.

 

Did they say it was the 1st Earl who renovated the Abbey into a stately home? A lot of the old Abbeys and Monasteries ended up in private hands and were converted into stately homes after the Reformation (not always immediately after - some lay derelict for a long time before being re-purposed). It could well have changed hands a few times before reaching the Crawley family - or the Crawleys could have owned the property since the Reformation, but it was a few generations later before they were elevated to the peerage. Or they could have had a lesser title before the first Earl was granted his earldom.

I too wish we had gotten a little more backstory about the family, and the tour would have been a good excuse. Not that it was critical.

But then, when Robert and the local Anglican priest and perhaps Violet objected to Tom's plans for raising Sybbie, I wish someone had made a crack about how inappropriate it would be to raise a Catholic in Downton Abbey.

[sugarbaker design]

It's got to be tough to be gay in 1920's England.  I can see why Thomas is so nasty and cynical, I would be too if every move I made to another man was suspect.  How lonely he must be with no gay friends?  EM Forster's character Maurice, another gay man in 1920's England, told his doctor he was gay.  The doctor's response?  Move to Paris!  I wish the same for Thomas Barrow, one way ticket to the City of Lights.

[C76]

The dinner scenes with Carson and Mrs. Hughes are rather humorous.  I imagine we'll see her explode before the end of the season.  If a perfect meal is so important to His Highness, why didn't he propose to Mrs. Patmore?

 

I have been waiting for Mrs. Hughes to say something to her husband ever since he started sniping at her. 

 

Edith is no saint.  The way she treated the Drewes is evidence of that. 

 

How exactly did she treat the Drewes? Didn't Mrs. Drewe kidnap her daughter?

[Artymouse]

I don't agree that there's no nuance in characters. Admittedly, Anna has never really been shown to do anything vaguely negative. But Edith is not a saint, and not just for her treatment of the Drewes. She also seemed to want to have an affair with the married farmer she drove the tractor for; she flirted and kissed him, with his wife nearby, and she was crushed when she was told her services weren't needed anymore.

 

And Mary showed a lot of compassion and selflessness in the Matthew and Lavinia situation. She was very sweet to Lavinia, buried her own feelings, did not try to dig up dirt about her in connection to the Marconi scandal ("the only evidence I've uncovered is that she's a charming person.") It's true that she danced with and kissed Matthew, but I'd say the fault was as much his as Mary's. But she helped to nurse him in the hospital, even assisting Sybil with cleaning him up when he was first brought in.

 

I like (and dislike) Mary and Edith equally, but I don't agree that there's just one dimension.

 

Mary was unnecessarily bitchy about Edith "casting a damper" on every London restaurant -- and she had that epic eye roll -- but Edith didn't seem too bothered by it. One thing that I didn't like about Mary was how she seemed to see herself as queen of all she surveyed while at the restaurant. "I'm not a war widow," she said without explaining herself; it felt like she saw herself as far above everyone else at the table. And I grant you, she got the imperious gene from Violet, but she came off more imperious than usual.

 

I do wonder what Tom's end game is going to be. I'm guessing he's going to get into something car-related with Henry, but if they're going to find him a love interest, time is running out!

[Nancybeth]

I'm hoping Mrs. Hughes-Carson will stab Mr. Carson in the hand with an tarnished dessert fork! 

 

Now I'm thinking that Tom and Talbot will go into the car business, and Bertie will marry Edith and somehow be involved with helping Mary to run Downton?  Maybe that will finally be when Mary and Edith find some common ground.  It would be nice to see Edith get the wedding she was denied with her previous two suitors!

[Ames]

I'm working with someone new today, and here is how one of our first conversations went down:

Her: Hey, do you watch Downton Abbey?

Me: I do!

Her: Did you watch last night's?

Me: Of course!

Her: Dude, WHAT IS DAISY'S DEAL?!

Me: OH MY GOD, I KNOW.

And now we are bonded for life, because nothing brings strangers together like a shared hatred.

[SusanSunflower]

folks -- just a reminder that there is a Mary & Edith thread ... before the mods come and move/delete for being off-topic. 

[boes]

folks -- just a reminder that there is a Mary & Edith thread ... before the mods come and move/delete for being off-topic.

It is? I don't see that indicated in the thread topic, just season 6, episode 6.

[SusanSunflower]

from the mods wrt last episode season 6 episode 5 -- which digressed into a (yet another) re-exploration of Mary+Pamuk ... 

 

 

The rape discussion is not applicable to this thread, and so all references to said scene (from Season 1) have been hidden.

Please keep this thread to the observations to Season 6 Episode 5, or all Season 6 episodes up until this one, thank you.

Re-hashing of Mary+Edith occurs every episode which is why it already has it's own thread ...  If you want to risk your posts being hidden or moved or deleted, have at it. I've had my posts and "conversations" disappear. Forewarned is forearmed. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[JenMcSnark]

I felt pretty lukewarm about Bertie Pelham before this episode - Lady Edith seemed to like him and so I was okay with him. But now I've fallen for him too. First for blessing Marigold, then for basically telling the Crawleys what they are supposed to do when they intend to open the house - but the icing on the cake was the side eye he gave Lady Mary in the last scene when she snarked at her sister. He didn't look too pleased with her ladyship nor particularly in awe - this could end interesting.

 

Speaking of Lady Mary: stop behaving as if you have no brains. You know exactly who Marigold is, throw that hissy-fit everyone is dreading and be done with it! And make it really dramatic - throw it into Bertie Pelham's face and hopefully you'll get the smack-down he's already planing for you.

 

I also loved how stupendously clueless Cora, Edith and Mary were about the house they were living in and its history. Those poor folks could have gotten a way more informative tour by Carson (who of course would have refused to inform the great unwashed about anything to with his holy family) or Moseley (who was dying to step in).

 

Not sure who I would like to plonk harder with a frying pan: Daisy or Mr Carson. I think Daisy because she's a complete arse to two people who have shown her nothing but kindness. Grow up and shut up, Daisy!

 

Subplots that are getting tedious (or already are): the hospital shenanigans, Baxter's continuous martyrdom, Anna's pregnancy scares, Carson harassing Thomas about Andy.

 

I guess Talbot and Mary were supposed to be the highlight of this episode but I'm giving that to his lordship talking to the little boy. That was far more entertaining. But Lady Mary's blue dress was great and at least we got a kiss - though I still don't see much chemistry or passion.

 

I have never seen a more perfect post!  Well said. 

[boes]

from the mods wrt last episode season 6 episode 5 -- which digressed into a (yet another) re-exploration of Mary+Pamuk ... 

Re-hashing of Mary+Edith occurs every episode which is why it already has it's own thread ...  If you want to risk your posts being hidden or moved or deleted, have at it. I've had my posts and "conversations" disappear. Forewarned is forearmed. 

 

Then I'm safe.  I misread your post, thought it said that THIS was a Mary/Edith thread.  Sorry.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, even Cora and Robert talking about Violet highlighted how strongly defined both actors/characters are... as we saw last week with the "grandchldren."  Cora could have added so much for so long ... whatever. 

 

Again, I felt that Mary and Henry were, for the most part, filmed too far away, the glances between them and Mary's eagerness to see Henry's reaction.  He was suitably flattered she went through so much trouble to surprise him, but he called her out ... a boldness I think she relished ... 

In the pub, she keeps telegraphing impatience/annoyance when he, for instance, talks to anyone else or about cars. Doing this, she seems a bit infantile ... which must  mean "true love" because he makes her act that way, forget her dignity, etc. etc. -- giddy as a schoolgirl, which for Mary is "subtle" 

Edited February 8, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Sulador]

Thanks for the confirmation of my original post about the sixpence admission price. Shillings way out of the price range for the locals, as y'all said. 

 

Can someone with greater heraldic knowledge than my own explain the significance of the blank shields on the fireplace mantelpiece? Presumably they would have been carved with the arms of heiresses who married into the family impaled with the Downton/Crawley arms, marking big important marriages? So why are they not? Surely going back to medieval times there must have been major mergers with other noble families worthy of being commemorated in stone...

 

I thought that Bertie Pelham, besides being his gay cousin's agent, was a likely heir to said cousin's title, as cousin will maybe never marry and most likely not come up with the heir and spare? I think there was a marriage of convenience suggested, but it didn't seem likely to happen. So if Bertie marries Edith, it's possible she could end up as the Marchioness of Brancaster?

 

And can someone please hit Daisy over the head with a poker? And likewise Carson.

[statsgirl]

Given the knowledge about art and architecture in the questions from a number of the visitors, I have to fanwank that the Open House was publicized far further afield than just Mosely's flyers. Maybe even in Edith's magazine.

 

Mary would get a new maid in a heartbeat.  If both Carson and Anna were gone, who would she play Lady Bountiful to?

 

I am no fan of Daisy's but I can understand why she's acting this way.  The only thing she's got of her own is Mr. Mason, even if she didn't want his son, and now that he's moved to Downton, she sees him being folded into the general crowd so that he's no longer her special person any more.

 

I thought Mrs. Patmore was out of line tattling to Mr. Carson what she thought was going on between Thomas and Andy, and a little out of character too.

I think it was because of Carson's position, that he is essentially figure responsible for all the downstairs staff and she thought Andy was vulnerable because he was so young and away from his family.

 

But yes, overkill for the drama.

 

 

Bertie is the agent for some other grand house, correct?  Perhaps his (a) taking the tour in hand & delegating, and (b) assuming all the Crawley women knew something about the art works, etc., within Downton will serve to remind Mary that she'll need to either bone up on her own family-home history or hire someone who does.  (Moseley?)

I think it demonstrated that Mary and even Tom are still just amateurs when it comes to running a large estate like that.  There's as much to know as in an MBA degree and in spite of her love for her pigs, Mary has barely scratched the surface.

[meep.meep]

The building was originally an Abbey - a place where monks lived.  During the Dissolution of the monasteries, under Henry XIII, a lot of the church's property was turned over to the crown, since Henry made himself the head of the church, that meant turned over to him.  He handed them out to those who pleased him.  So there's no going back to "medieval times" for the Granthams and Crawleys.  They go back to the Reformation at best.

 

Those shields were probably a Victorian decoration added to the fireplace.

 

I hope the three ladies did ad lib their "tours" - they were great.

 

Should we be taking bets on what Mrs. Hughes is going to hit her husband with?  Poker?  Frying pan?  Walking stick?

 

[terrymct]

How exactly did she treat the Drewes? Didn't Mrs. Drewe kidnap her daughter?

 

After approving of the Drewes raising Marigold, Edith started spending an increasing amount of time there, disrupting their family life, and eventually just plain took the child back.   The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine together before Edith started having second thoughts.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode:

 

Roll Up! Roll Up For The Downton Abbey Manor House Tour!
Scandalous inter-toff fight guaranteed to every ticket holder! Come on, it's for charity!

[SusanSunflower]

Thomas and Andy ... parting shot of Thomas crying in the dining room was utterly ridiculous ... Because homosexuality was seriously punished, Thomas would never have taken the risk of meeting with Andy, privately, even in a closet off the dining room with the door closed ... simply TSFW (too stupid for words) or really bad writing.  Andy would not have approached Thomas or accepted his help -- not with Molesley or even Daisy close by ... not to mention that Carson (at very least) would have known about his illiteracy at the time of his employment ... since he would be useless if written instructions were needed, for example, dealing with a grocery list  or getting a list of things out of a storeroom, chosing the correct canister ... 

Also realized that -- unless I missed it -- we have not met the new chauffeur ...  making me wonder how rusty Tom's auto mechanic skills might be ... 

Edited February 8, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Macbeth]

Is Fellowes punishing Maggie Smith a little?

 

I feel that he is - as Maggie did announce her leaving before it was announced that the show  was ending.  Given Maggie's status, age, and what she has given to DA - you would think her leaving would be understood - but  maybe not.

 

On the other hand Violet is not the only character being assassinated this season.  Daisy and Carson are also in JF's cross hairs.  This episode being a prime example.  

 

I agree with whoever posted that Downton Abbey has become camp.

[jschoolgirl]

Perhaps Henry will have cause to drive Bertie's cousin, they will crash, and then Bertie gets the title. I wish they'd speed up things with Edith and Bertie. They are the best watching now, and there's not much time left!

This would be doubly satisfying as Mary would likely reconsider Henry under such circumstances.

[lulee]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode:

Roll Up! Roll Up For The Downton Abbey Manor House Tour!

Scandalous inter-toff fight guaranteed to every ticket holder! Come on, it's for charity!

One quibble: Barrow didn't actually find Isis the dog. He went out to "look for it" (I.e., free it from the shed) in the morning, only to run into Robert who said that a village child had found the dog in a shed.

[statsgirl]

I can accept Andy not being able to read and no one knowing about it.  Even today there are people who can't read and go to huge lengths to successfully keep it from others.  I doubt that Carson would have given Andy a written list, more likely to just pontificate, but even if he were given a grocery list, he could hand it over to the shopkeeper and have him/her gather the things together.

 

 

After approving of the Drewes raising Marigold, Edith started spending an increasing amount of time there, disrupting their family life, and eventually just plain took the child back.   The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine together before Edith started having second thoughts.

I know we've hashed it out before but this was Edith's first chance to actually spend time with her own child.  She didn't take Marigold until Mrs. Drewe, showing signs of mental instability, refused to let her visit her child at all.  The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine at the moment * if Edith had been willing to abandon her child.

 

* Given Mrs. Drewe's behaviour even after she knew that Edith was Marigold's birth mother, I wonder what would have happened in the future when Marigold grew to be a teenager and wanted more independence.  Or if Robert had decided that he wanted his grandchild, illegitimate or not, to be well educated and took her away and into a boarding school.

Edited February 8, 2016 by statsgirl

[allboys]

 

After approving of the Drewes raising Marigold, Edith started spending an increasing amount of time there, disrupting their family life, and eventually just plain took the child back.   The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine together before Edith started having second thoughts.

In Edith's defense,  Marigold isn't just " the child" she is her child.  She never really wanted to give her away, she was looking for a way to be part of her life.  Was it fair to Mrs. Drew?  Absolutely not.  Was it intentional that Mrs. Drew got hurt in the process? No, Edith didn't know how she was going to feel about the arrangement any more than Mr. Drew know how his wife would feel.

[proserpina65]

After approving of the Drewes raising Marigold, Edith started spending an increasing amount of time there, disrupting their family life, and eventually just plain took the child back.   The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine together before Edith started having second thoughts.

Never mind - statsgirl already said it better.

 

On to this episode: the clothing continues to be fabulous!  That dress Mary wore in London was gorgeous - I want it!

Edited February 8, 2016 by proserpina65

[marceline]

I was a little surprised to see Violet throw such a scene in public. I know she was angry but Violet has always been about discretion. For her to throw that kind of a scene would have the spectators talking about if forever.  But of course, I feel like characters are acting out in very strange ways all around.

 

I agree with those who say that the fighting between Mary and Edith is just tired now. They remind me of those overly dramatic couples who like to fight in front of other people and call it being "passionate." No. It's rude and uncomfortable for other people to have to sit through.

 

I'm not going to get caught up with feeling sorry for Thomas. Every time it looks like he's learned something he goes right back to being a dick.

 

Bertie Pelham is my new favorite character. I loved when he started asking about the details of how they would handle the tours. You could see him thinking, "Wow you idiots don't think anything through, do you?"

 

Can we please find whoever killed Green and have them shove Daisy into traffic too? Because that bitch is on my reserve nerves.

 

Also, is Coyle being unseen supposed to add to his malice because once again all this talk about someone we've never seen is just a bore.

[Llywela]

I know we've hashed it out before but this was Edith's first chance to actually spend time with her own child.  She didn't take Marigold until Mrs. Drewe, showing signs of mental instability, refused to let her visit her child at all.  The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine if Edith had been willing to abandon her child.

Nope, not how it happened. Edith taking Marigold had nothing to do with Mrs Drewe 'showing signs of mental instability' - which, by the way, she was not. Mrs Drewe was being a protective mother to Marigold, which was only right and proper, since she had been asked to raise the child as her own. Edith took Marigold back because Michael Gregson had died and in her grief she could no longer continue with the separation from their child. Up until Michael's death, Edith never had any intention of taking Marigold back. She thought she could have her cake and eat it too - play the interested lady from the big house in order to get close to the child, disrupting the Drewe's family life, without having to risk her name and reputation by being publicly associated with her. It was Michael's death that triggered Edith's decision to claim Marigold as her own.

 

'The Drewes and Marigold would have been fine if Edith had been willing to abandon her child'? Seriously? The Drewes would have been fine if Edith had never involved them in her business in the first place! It was Edith's decision to give Marigold up - the Drewe's didn't take the child from her. She gave her to them, to raise as their own. Yes, she did it because she wanted to be closer to the child, to be able to see her from time to time rather than leave her with her adoptive family in Switzerland, but still, 'abandoning' Marigold, as you put it, was Edith's own choice at that point. She wasn't prepared to raise the child herself, due to her circumstances, and so handed her over to another family to raise instead. And then found it harder to live with than she'd anticipated, thus leading to the whole unhappy chain of events that culminated in Edith changing her mind.

 

I really don't understand why some posters are so determined to pretend Edith never did anything wrong. It isn't a betrayal of the character to acknowledge that she isn't perfect and has handled certain situations badly. She's a human being, after all, well meaning but flawed. She had reasons for everything she did, she was motivated by overwhelming emotions and difficult circumstances, but she nonetheless handled the situation badly and other people were hurt because of it, something she has never acknowledged. I like Edith, I do. But I would respect her a whole lot more if she had the grace to admit how badly her actions have hurt others.

[EccentricLily]

Can we please find whoever killed Green and have them shove Daisy into traffic too? Because that bitch is on my reserve nerves.

 

Yes, I think Daisy needs a brief meeting with the Bus of Justice, and the sooner, the better! 

 

Aside from her asinine behavior, and that of Carson, I enjoyed the episode. My favorite scene was Robert's with the young 'philosopher'. So unexpected, and so human. I wonder what other rooms the little dickens investigated during his wanderings.

 

Also, enjoyed hearing the word "swanky" used again. The only person I have ever heard use it was my grandfather (born in 1903)! I never realized it was a 1920's term. 

[Roseanna]

Edith took Marigold back because Michael Gregson had died and in her grief she could no longer continue with the separation from their child. Up until Michael's death, Edith never had any intention of taking Marigold back. She thought she could have her cake and eat it too - play the interested lady from the big house in order to get close to the child, disrupting the Drewe's family life, without having to risk her name and reputation by being publicly associated with her. It was Michael's death that triggered Edith's decision to claim Marigold as her own.

 

Partly, but also because Rosamund and Violet planned to send Marigold to a French boarding school. So Mrs Drewe had no chance to keep Marigold anyway. 

 

Also, after Edith inherited Gregson's magazine, she had the first time money to take care of her child.

[Kohola3]

When Carson was looking for his walking sick, I though Mrs. Hughes might have hidden it so she could stick it where the sun don't shine.  Wait, no, Carson already has a stick up his butt.  The Big Booby has really crossed the line now.