S01.E01: From The Ashes Of Tragedy

[Carolina Girl]

If you can find it, I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's book "OUTRAGE:  Five Reasons O.J. Simpson Got Away With Murder."  It's an excellent analysis of the case from Bugliosi's (former) prosecutor's eye.  Most, most excellent.  

[Jade Foxx]

 

Like my mom has told me the story a bunch of times about her being 8 months pregnant with me and laying on our living room floor watching...uh, what's about to happen with the white Bronco, and it's just starting to dawn on me that I was born in the midst of this madness and don't know of a world without this kind of constant media coverage. Like I have no concept of a pre-OJ murder trial existence and will probably never quite understand how the whole thing changed the media in the way that people that can remember the "before" times do. It's just wild.

 

This is so awesome! Your mom and I sort of share the same events re: the OJ timeline..

 

My now 21 year old daughter was born June 3 1994, so when the murders (then chase happened) I was literally nursing her, while watching all this unfold on !LIVE! television,and screaming to my husband that the "Juice is Loose!" 

 

I was even ready to dash out and to drive toward the 405 freeway (less than 10 minutes away), when my husband screamed "you've got our daughter on your breast, are you kidding me?!"

 

Such a killjoy. (although we was active LAPD at the time.)

 

We laugh about it today. 

 

But yes - I remember the Menendez brothers' trial and OJ really kicked off the around the clock, real time crime coverage and courtroom action. 

[Nutjob]

I was absolutely steeped in this trial when it happened--I was right in the middle of my college days, and lived for stuff like this, so I still remember many of the details. That said, I don't know if I'll continue watching, just because I was so infuriated by the verdict. Seeing the staged, reenacted crime scene and hearing the reminders of the abuse Nicole endured at OJ's hands brought all the frustration back. You can also count me in as thinking CGJ is not believable in this role--he's just too small, and his voice too thin. OJ has a very authoritative presence, size and voice that CGJ just doesn't have. It took me out of several moments during the episode.

[7isBlue]

A very interesting take on the case is Dominic Dunn' s book called the Another City, Not My Own. It's fictionalized, but barely. I know this series is based on different source material, but there is so much detail about celebrity and the la culture during that time in his book.

I like true crime stories and I find this one endlessly fascinating. I've been waiting for this show since the ads started last fall. So yeah, I'm all in.

I agree- that is a GREAT book. I saw many interviews with Dunne and he said that most of what was novelized was the main character, a reporter. The other book I'd recommend is the one by Daniel Petrocelli, who was the Goldman's lawyer in the civil case. It is riveting.

[TexasGal]

 

*I remember people theorizing that perhaps OJ's oldest son Jason was the killer & OJ was taking the fall for his son.  He was a chef so he knew his way around a knife.  It had been rumored he had rage issues.  Jason also always laid low during the trial; you saw Arnelle but you never really saw Jason.  That theory kinda faded after OJ kept acting a fool.

 

 

Marcia Clark's hair was atrocious.  The wig on the actress is 100x better than Marcia Clark's real hair was.

That was the pet theory my friends and I had at the time. I can't remember why we latched on to it, but wouldn't be surprised if our crim law professor had floated it to us. I read a book that claimed to "prove" this, written by some former cop or private investigator. The one bit that stuck with me was that OJ hired a criminal defense attorney for Jason.

Yeah, as tragic as that wig is - it beats the original hands down.

[VCRTracking]

Ugh, that was so annoying!  It just seemed so fake.  Like, Lady Gaga's name is Stefani.  Does Taylor Kinney call her "gaga" in private?  Probably not.  Calling him "Juice" once or twice might have been alright, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that OJ's personal friends probably called him by his name a majority of the time.  Especially in a very serious situation like this.  Calling him "Juice" made Robert Kardashian seem more like a fan than a friend.

 

 

But picture him saying "OJ, OJ, OJ," or "Orenthal, Orenthal, Orenthal" over and over again. "Lady Gaga" is a stage name, "Juice" is a nickname.

 

They definitely heightened the drama in a movie-ish kind of way. Like the scene where OJ is threatening to commit suicide. IThey way the real Robert Kardashian recounted it to Barbara Walter it was a less frantic and more quieter scene.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_77uUty9H_w

Edited February 3, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Cara]

Isn't it just Johnnie Cochran and Robert Kardashian who have died? That's not "a lot of the participants." Am I missing someone? Does Nicole's father count?

Phil Vannatter has also passed away.

[Spartan Girl]

The kids really got to me in this episode. I had no idea they were in the house when the murder happen...and the poor little girl leaving the message on the answering machine....gah.

And the part where OJ was hugging them, I wanted to scream.

Cuba may not look or sound like OJ, but he made my skin crawl all the same.

[suomi]

He told stories about planting evidence as ideas for a screenplay. That was what was on the tapes. They may or may not have been based on an actual event. If I remember correctly he plead the 5th to every question he was asked when he was recalled to the stand. Which is what his lawyer advised him to do I'm sure. If you answer some questions but plead the fifth to others you run the risk of forfeiting you 5th amendment privilege and being held in contempt of court.

 

Exactly. Thank you.

 

During the 6-day preliminary hearing in July '94, before anyone except Fuhrman had heard of his former friend-with-benefits Laura McKinny, he was asked if he had ever addressed anyone as the N word. He answered "No." Addressing someone means speaking to them directly. He was also asked if he had described anyone as being the N word. To that question he waffled and said "I can't answer that question the way you asked it." There was some back and forth re possible confusion and then he answered "No." This was six months before the trial began in January '95, before the prosecutors had a clue that Fuhrman had a past. The prosecutors received a ton of shit for using Fuhrman as a witness in their case but he found their evidence and if they didn't call him they knew the defense would, and the only reason for the defense to call him would be to dirty him up.

 

There are many versions of this trial lawyers' saying but the gist remains: When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table. (or, pound opposing counsel. or, pound opposing counsel's witness)

 

In September '95, eight months into the trial, Fuhrman was recalled as a trial witness and invoked the Fifth for three (and only three) questions.

 

"Was the testimony that you gave at the preliminary hearing in this case completely truthful?"

"Have you ever falsified a police report?"

"Did you plant or manufacture any evidence in this case?"

 

As soon as you invoke the Fifth that must contine to be your response to every question that follows. You cannot invoke on some questions while answering others. The defense could have asked Fuhrman if he killed Jimmy Hoffa and Sam Giancana and he would have had to invoke the Fifth. Trial lawyering at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.

 

"It was one of the great moments in courtroom history," Santa Monica defense lawyer Gigi Gordon said. "To see Mark Fuhrman found out and compelled to take the 5th on the witness stand is perhaps the ultimate vindication for all those people who were the subjects of 20 years of racism, harassment and abuse."

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-09-07/news/mn-43219_1_detective-mark-Fuhrman

 

I disagree with the sentiment above, even though it is widely held, because the pain and fear Ron and Nicole suffered while losing their lives was a completely separate matter from previous injustices practiced by the LAPD. What was done to them and to their families was an injustice in the name of righting injustice.

Edited February 3, 2016 by suomi

[SFoster21]

One of the best books written about the trial, primarily about the defense team, is Lawrence Schiller's book. He had a lot of access to the defense lawyers.

[Ina123]

Courtney Vance is more Cochran than Cochran. Sterling Brown not only looks like Christopher Darden he is soft spoken like him. Gee casting did so well, how could you blow it with Cuba as OJ? An unknown would be better.

[CeeBeeGee]

I'll pay David Schwimmer $1 million dollars if he never says "The Juice" again.

 

Oh my God! All those sycophants anxiously saying "Juice!" and "The Juice" every other second and kowtowing to this brooding psychopath. I can't even imagine being in that room. I would've started cackling hysterically at these hamsters and shown myself out. Schwimmer's doing a great job though (all the performances are great, except for Travolta's, sadly).

 

"Though I don't think I would use the term "serious bad ass" to describe him." Fair enough, but in my memory he was the one of, like, four people who consistently and from the beginning would say in so many words that he thought OJ did it. People were *awfully* careful at the time not to pick a side, and even after the verdict, to find someone who would just say "he murdered those people" was relatively rare. (see also: Bugliosi, Vincent) It was a strange time.

 

Hunh, not how I remember it--maybe it's a regional thing? Everyone I knew at the time was pretty convinced he did it--DNA, plus his prior record, plus all the physical evidence. It seemed clear to me the verdict was a fuck you for the acquittal of the Rodney King cops (also a terrible verdict).

 

I really thought Cuba turned in a strong, terrifying performance of a man completely walking a tightrope and barely controlling his rage. He scared me. A lot. And it's goddamn Cuba Gooding Jr - SHOW ME THE MONEY, JERRY - yet I was terrified of him when he went into OJ's scratchy, almost screeching diatribes.

 

He's riveting. I'm very impressed.

 

I can't help but think OJ is getting the sympathy edit here. I hate the fact that spousal abuse took a back seat to racial issues.

 

Don't they always? Nicole who? Sure, obviously race is an important factor--but so is domestic abuse. He beat the shit out of her and got away with it. And then he murdered her, and some poor guy with terrible luck, and got away with that.

 

i can't even imagine how I would've reacted if I'd been Nicole's sister and had to watch that POS looming over her coffin, staring into the beautiful face he mutilated, playing the grieving ex-husband for his audience. Just sickening.

 

My ex-BF was casual friends with OJ, and knew Nicole rather well. I texted him last night and got an earful of insight--I'm still hoping he might show up in the series (so is he, I think ;)

[Deanie87]

I wasn't sure how I was going to like this, but I am here for the duration!  I was in my early 20s when it all went down, and I was only followed it casually, but it amazed me how much I remembered as it aired.  When they said "Rockingham Drive" it all started coming back to me.  The dog's name, the friends/hangers on (Resnick, Paula Barbieri), etc.  I didn't think that I was paying all that much attention, but it just goes to show you how entrenched this case was in the culture.  For those of you who weren't old enough to live through it, I don't think its possible to overstate how huge this was at the time, and how much it hit a nerve.  Being just out of college and very much in my naive bubble, I was shocked at the racial attitudes of people I had known all of my life, black and white.  This was the first time in my life that they thin veneer of civility was pulled away and people's real thoughts were exposed, not just about racism, but attitudes toward the police, inter-racial marriage, infidelity, etc. it all came out and rocked my little self-centered world.

 

Interesting that you can see how the case was bungled from the get-go and I loved the disbelief of the DA's office when OJ escaped while there were like 10 other people at the house, including police officers!  I also appreciate how much OJ's celebrity played a part, and how that affected his treatment all through the trial.  As much as it was about race, it was also about "the haves" and celebrity.

[VanillaBeanne]

Did the glove have a cut on it that coincided with Ojs cut? I ask because they showed his bandaged middle finger a few times in the first episode but I don't remember the cuts being an issue at trial.

Edited February 4, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[RemoteControlFreak]

But picture him saying "OJ, OJ, OJ," or "Orenthal, Orenthal, Orenthal" over and over again. "Lady Gaga" is a stage name, "Juice" is a nickname.

Yes. As creepy as it sounds, his friends really did call him "Juice" in private.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

The more I think about it, I think Bobby Hosea would have made a better OJ. He's got the presence, he's built, and he can act. Or, is he too old to play him?

[Tunia]

It was obvious he was going to use Kato as an alibi, that he was on his way to murder Faye with the "hamburger" excuse,

 

Umbelina ~ May I presume you meant Nicole?

 

Calling him "Juice" once or twice might have been alright, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that OJ's personal friends probably called him by his name a majority of the time.  Especially in a very serious situation like this.  Calling him "Juice" made Robert Kardashian seem more like a fan than a friend.

 

truelovekiss ~ As I recall, O.J. was pretty commonly called "Juice" by friends, fans and media, so that aspect didn't come as a surprise.

[Umbelina]

Hunh, not how I remember it--maybe it's a regional thing? Everyone I knew at the time was pretty convinced he did it--DNA, plus his prior record, plus all the physical evidence. It seemed clear to me the verdict was a fuck you for the acquittal of the Rodney King cops (also a terrible verdict).

 

I lived on the coast, mid California at the time.  From my memory of my town, and of general coverage, reaction split strictly on racial lines. 

Umbelina ~ May I presume you meant Nicole?

 

 

truelovekiss ~ As I recall, O.J. was pretty commonly called "Juice" by friends, fans and media, so that aspect didn't come as a surprise.

Jeez, yes, I'll go edit!  Thanks for the catch. 

 

That drive to McDonalds was strange in every way, OJ didn't speak, Kato hated McDonalds, OJ finished his large hamburger before they even got out of the parking lot after going through the drive-thru window.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[Dejana]

The more I think about it, I think Bobby Hosea would have made a better OJ. He's got the presence, he's built, and he can act. Or, is he too old to play him?

I think he played OJ in the TV movie done in the mid-90s, so he's probably in his late 50s, early 60s by now.

Kato Kaelin is on Entertainment Tonight, saying they portrayed him as Garth from Wayne's World and they embellished what a stoner he was. I remember the trial, though, and he was regarded as a complete flake at the time, fair or not.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think he played OJ in the TV movie done in the mid-90s, so he's probably in his late 50s, early 60s by now.

Kato Kaelin is on Entertainment Tonight, saying they portrayed him as Garth from Wayne's World and they embellished what a stoner he was. I remember the trial, though, and he was regarded as a complete flake at the time, fair or not.

 

Damn.

 

Kato: Yep. I remember thinking that about him at the time. The whole thing was a mess.

[ElDosEquis]

Mark Fuhrman tore his pants climbing over the fence at Rockingham. This wasn't even mentioned in the episode. How can they leave out salient details like that?

 

I saw almost everyday of the trial. My office was in a patient room and my bosses were FN spectacular about letting me watch - they'd come in and ask me for updates....

[CeeBeeGee]

Speaking of V Dominick Dunne's daughter Dominique was suppose to be in that but she ended up getting killed at the hands of her abusive ex boyfriend. He hardly did any time for the crime either since he wasn't charged with first degree murder. Sad to see the times the justice system messed up.

 

yes, it's a terrible story and the main reason Dunne starting covering so many notorious trials. I remember reading that after his daughter's murderer was given the not-guilty murderer, he made his way over to Dunne's side of the courtroom and reached out his hand to shake it, in a 'no hard feelings" kind of gesture. Can you imagine?!?! Your daughter is strangled by her boyfriend, gets away with it, and he's acting as though you're on the opposing football team and we're all going to go out for a soda afterward?!

 

During the 6-day preliminary hearing in July '94, before anyone except Fuhrman had heard of his former friend-with-benefits Laura McKinny, he was asked if he had ever addressed anyone as the N word. He answered "No." Addressing someone means speaking to them directly. He was also asked if he had described anyone as being the N word. To that question he waffled and said "I can't answer that question the way you asked it." There was some back and forth re possible confusion and then he answered "No." This was six months before the trial began in January '95, before the prosecutors had a clue that Fuhrman had a past. The prosecutors received a ton of shit for using Fuhrman as a witness in their case but he found their evidence and if they didn't call him they knew the defense would, and the only reason for the defense to call him would be to dirty him up.

 

There are many versions of this trial lawyers' saying but the gist remains: When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table. (or, pound opposing counsel. or, pound opposing counsel's witness)

 

In September '95, eight months into the trial, Fuhrman was recalled as a trial witness and invoked the Fifth for three (and only three) questions.

 

"Was the testimony that you gave at the preliminary hearing in this case completely truthful?"

"Have you ever falsified a police report?"

"Did you plant or manufacture any evidence in this case?"

 

As soon as you invoke the Fifth that must contine to be your response to every question that follows. You cannot invoke on some questions while answering others. The defense could have asked Fuhrman if he killed Jimmy Hoffa and Sam Giancana and he would have had to invoke the Fifth. Trial lawyering at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-09-07/news/mn-43219_1_detective-mark-Fuhrman

 

I disagree with the sentiment above, even though it is widely held, because the pain and fear Ron and Nicole suffered while losing their lives was a completely separate matter from previous injustices practiced by the LAPD. What was done to them and to their families was an injustice in the name of righting injustice.

 

Exactly. What social justice was served by decapitating that poor woman (after of course beating the crap out of her for years) and murdering some kid who stumbled on the scene? How are they to blame? How does letting the killer get away with their deaths dismantle systemic racism? 

[ElDosEquis]

I think he played OJ in the TV movie done in the mid-90s, so he's probably in his late 50s, early 60s by now.

Kato Kaelin is on Entertainment Tonight, saying they portrayed him as Garth from Wayne's World and they embellished what a stoner he was. I remember the trial, though, and he was regarded as a complete flake at the time, fair or not.

 

Kaelin did a radio talk show in Lost Angeles  on KLSX radio for a while, he wasn't as stupid as they portrayed him to be. He was rather intelligent and well spoken...

[Bronzedog]

Marcia Clark was on the View and the after show and was allowed to talk. It was interesting. She said with the jury they had and Judge Ito, she knew they didn't have a chance of a conviction. It will be interesting to see her character's interaction with the Judge since apparently he was a real pig. She was very complimentary about Sarah Paulson.

[J-Man]

 

AJ typo corrected.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but it's still wrong. His name is Al Cowlings, or AC. No one called him AC Cowlings.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I just watched this and I'm sorry but the "Kris" mentions and the "Kortney" "Khloe" mentions at the funeral really stuck out like a sore thumb and were really egregious.  It really took me out of the "story" that I know pretty well and made me roll my eyes.  It's so obvious that the producers are trying to cash in on the Kardashian fame with those mentions.  I understand Robert Kardashian's role in the actual story and facts but I still hold the opinion that the Kris/Khortney/Khloe stuff was over the top.  I would not have been surprised to hear Kanye West mentioned at some damn point.  (This part is sarcasm).

 

The negatives were David Schwimmer's acting (and I'm a big Friends fan), John Travolta's characterization.

 

The positives were everything else.  I'm down with Cuba even though I agree that he doesn't look like him - he's such a talented actor and I think he's going to get awarded for this.  Agree that Courtney B. Vance is just killing it.

 

Poor Jonathan Taylor Thomas, whom I STILL have a crush on.  ;)

Edited February 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[rallymantis]

 

But this is making me nuts...someone help... I know I've seen the limo driver in something else, but I couldn't find him in the IMDb cast list.  Anybody got a clue?

Phew! don't know that anyone responded to this, but after I wrote it, I turned on the TV and there was an ep of The Middle...and the lightbulb lit...Beau Wirick, who plays Axl's buddy Sean, is Allan Park (the limo driver).

 

Thank GOD.  It was bugging the crap out of me.

[OSM Mom]

I thought that part of the Kim Khloe mention thing was to establish that she was Kris. Geez I hope that sentence made sense.

[SFoster21]

Did the glove have a cut on it that coincided with Ojs cut? I ask because they showed his bandaged middle finger a few times in the first episode but I don't remember the cuts being an issue at trial.

He dropped a glove at the murder site. It's likely he got the cut then.

CeeBeeGee, the point was made in several books that Kardashian et al were sycophantic towards him. He was a big deal at the time.

[FuriousStyles]

Exactly. What social justice was served by decapitating that poor woman (after of course beating the crap out of her for years) and murdering some kid who stumbled on the scene? How are they to blame? How does letting the killer get away with their deaths dismantle systemic racism? 

I don't think those jurors were thinking about dismantling systemic racism.  One guilty verdict wouldn't accomplish that.  1 million verdicts wouldn't accomplish that.  If we're assuming the jury voted not guilty solely because of the racial climate of the time and more specifically as retribution for the racist actions of the LAPD in the past (and not because the prosecution fucked it up) then that's exactly what it was.  As one poster put it a giant fuck you to the LAPD.  Nicole and Ron were just collateral damage.  

 

I imagine a lot of black people were saying, "you know, OJ probably did kill those people, but so what?  Finally, FINALLY we score one.  Finally "they" know what it feels like."  On a much much smaller scale, similar things were being said here in NYC when that guy walked up to a parked police car and killed two cops who were sitting inside.  The killer tried to make it a racial thing in his postings on Facebook earlier that day (even though it was two minorities he killed).  But I heard many people say, now "they" (meaning the cops) know what it feels like.  This mind you, was after Eric Gardner had been choked to death on camera by police among a host of decades long abuse and murders at the hands of the NYPD.  When people have been oppressed and damn near terrorized by a group of people, logic flies out the window.  That's what happens when emotions are involved.   Those jurors probably all had their own (negative) experiences dealing with the LAPD, and most certainly saw what happened to Rodney King.  I think it would have been incredible if not impossible to expect these people to look at this trial and in particular the LAPD in a vacuum.  It just wasn't going to happen...not at that time, and not in that city.     I think it was a great shot to include Cochran listening to the radio while the host and callers were talking about how the city was still on fire (figuratively speaking) over the Rodney King beating and subsequent acquittals of those police officers.  Brilliant move on his part to make this trial a race issue and hammer how corrupt and racist the major players in the LAPD were.    

Edited February 4, 2016 by FuriousStyles

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I had the same question but I also took it as a suggestion that Nicole had been setting the stage for a romantic encounter with Ron. I don't know if it was ever determined that there was a previously existing sexual relationship between the two but I'd always heard that idea posited.

Cuba is doing a great job but I still think his size and voice are an uphill battle for this portrayal. I'm actually enjoying Travolta. I don't have any memory of Shapiro's voice, only his appearance, and Travolta is selling it for me.

The Kourtney/Khloe thing was superfluous. Did Kris and Faye really where hats to the funeral? Seems a little dramatic.

Sarah Paulson is doing great. Her terrible wig is actually better hair than Marcia Clark's real hair at the time. I like the insight into her life and, even more so, into Darden's.

The kids really got to me in this episode. I had no idea they were in the house when the murder happen...and the poor little girl leaving the message on the answering machine....gah.

And the part where OJ was hugging them, I wanted to scream.

Cuba may not look or sound like OJ, but he made my skin crawl all the same.

Everything I've read seems to indicate that the kids did indeed sleep through the murders. I sincerely hope that is indeed true. Those poor kids....the thought of them being upstairs while their mother was nearly decapitated below by their own father.....

I'm going to try to word this correctly and hopefully it makes sense. I also am not trying to be offensive and hope no one is offended by this:

I was in middle school when the trial happened and while I remember plenty & I've read some books about the case, I don't remember Robert Shapiro's mannerisms, etc. The way Travolta is playing him in this role reads to me as an actor "playing the role gay," if that makes sense - like the actor decided himself on the character's bio/backstory & that the character is gay and he is playing the character with hand/arm gestures/movements etc that we often see used to present stereotypical gay characters in film/TV/plays/etc. Robert Shapiro was straight, so I'm not sure why an actor would chose to play this character of a well-known straight person as gay. Was Shapiro a straight man who just had mannerisms that the media often uses when portraying stereotypical gay men? Or is Travolta really that bad of an actor these days?

I thought all of the others did well, even David Schwimmer who I wasn't sure about (I thought I'd just see Ross). CGJ's size and voice throw me off, too, but his rage is downright scary and made me forget about that. Selma Blair is campy perfection as Kris K (but yes, that call out to the K kids at the funeral was unnecessary).

Camp + True Crime = I'm Here For the Next 9 Episodes

(But Travolta's make up, wig, eye brows, and distinctive voice are SO distracting. Who thought that was good casting choice? Ugh!).

Edited February 4, 2016 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[SoSueMe]

That was the pet theory my friends and I had at the time. I can't remember why we latched on to it, but wouldn't be surprised if our crim law professor had floated it to us. I read a book that claimed to "prove" this, written by some former cop or private investigator. The one bit that stuck with me was that OJ hired a criminal defense attorney for Jason.

Yeah, as tragic as that wig is - it beats the original hands down.

Marcia's hair was a sad mistake but I seem to recall that at some point in that very loonnng trial she made a dramatic change in hairstyles. She changed to a smooth semi-straight bob. Maybe I am mis-remembering? 

[Daisy]

I thought that part of the Kim Khloe mention thing was to establish that she was Kris. Geez I hope that sentence made sense.

 

That's what I figured. 

I mean truthfully - I don't know who that Kardashians are. like at all. So I don't get the rage or anything like that, I didn't know who that lady was, now I know. 

 

this was really, really good. I was eleven (and Canadian) so I know like nothing really. it's going to be interesting to follow this. 

 

i wonder if after the Katerina disaster, if they're going to do the Menendez brothers. 

[7isBlue]

I don't think those jurors were thinking about dismantling systemic racism.  One guilty verdict wouldn't accomplish that.  1 million verdicts wouldn't accomplish that.  If we're assuming the jury voted not guilty solely because of the racial climate of the time and more specifically as retribution for the racist actions of the LAPD in the past (and not because the prosecution fucked it up) then that's exactly what it was.  As one poster put it a giant fuck you to the LAPD.  Nicole and Ron were just collateral damage.  

I've heard it said that the case was lost as soon as they changed the venue from Santa Monica to Downtown L.A.. In Santa Monica he would have faced a jury of his *actual* peers, successful West-siders. He'd abandoned the black community represented by the L.A. jury decades ago.

[Dejana]

Marcia's hair was a sad mistake but I seem to recall that at some point in that very loonnng trial she made a dramatic change in hairstyles. She changed to a smooth semi-straight bob. Maybe I am mis-remembering? 

 

She actually made a couple of changes to her hair during the ordeal. Here's a 1995 LA Times article about her "new look", including an interview with the hair stylist:

 

The transformation started on Friday, when Clark called Edwards--who runs several salons in the Los Angeles area--to complain that she couldn't get her hair to curl properly. Edwards worked late Friday evening to fit Clark into his schedule at his Studio City salon.

 

At a cost of $150, Edwards trimmed and dyed Clark's hair a shade of auburn, replacing her trademark curls with a modified shag. On Tuesday morning, Edwards stopped at the prosecutor's home to blow-dry her new look--a service he provides for many of his famous clients, including Dustin Hoffman and Donna Mills.

Last summer, Clark had her shoulder-length curls trimmed to the neckline--a hairstyle also created by Edwards, who offered his services to Clark after watching the prosecutor on television during the preliminary hearing.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Dejana

[AndySmith]

Kato Kaelin is on Entertainment Tonight, saying they portrayed him as Garth from Wayne's World and they embellished what a stoner he was.

 

What, David Spade wasn't good enough for him? ;)

 

[Madding crowd]

I thought a lot of it seemed very cheesy, but I am interested enough to watch. John Travolta now looks like his face is made of plastic which was kind of creepy to me-I just couldn't see him as a real person. Sarah Paulson did a good job as did David Schwimmer (I know Schwimmer is way taller than Kardashian, but he has a resemblance. Someone up thread said DS is too bulky to be Kardashian, but I think he is quite thin). Cuba doesn't look or sound like OJ but who does?

 

Unless someone has a distinctive hairstyle, facial hair or glasses, it is usually hard to find someone who looks enough like a real person to be convincing. I agree that the call out to Kourtney and Khloe in the funeral home was clunky and they could have found another way for us to know the character was Kris. I am hoping that the K girls won't be mentioned a lot, they were pretty young at the time.

[suomi]

Judge Ito demonstrated poor taste and no common sense by commenting on and complimenting the debut of Marcia Clark's "new 'do" in open court.

[savannah1985]

I just wanted to say that almost all of the books mentioned by posters on this forum are still available at your local library.

[BitterApple]

The jury didn't care because they didn't want to care. Marcia Clark was a white bitch. Chris Darden was an Uncle Tom. Nicole was a white bitch who stole a brother from his pregnant black wife. A black man who yells at and hits his woman doesn't kill

I always thought the verdict was the jury's way of giving the big F.U. to white people for the Rodney King debaucle. Even if the LAPD did a sloppy investigation there's no way the jury could have determined that in the ridiculously short amount of time they deliberated. Nicole and Ron were an afterthought.

[reggiejax]

Marcia Clark was on the View and the after show and was allowed to talk. It was interesting. She said with the jury they had and Judge Ito, she knew they didn't have a chance of a conviction. It will be interesting to see her character's interaction with the Judge since apparently he was a real pig. She was very complimentary about Sarah Paulson.

 

Of course she said that. It wouldn't be Marcia Clark if she wasn't covering her ass. If she truly felt that way at the time, she should have recused herself and let someone less pessimistic about putting away a double murderer take over the case. 

 

This first episode shows that they are clearly going to portray Marcia Clark as a great defense attorney who had everything thrown against her and was thus not given the chance, perhaps even forbidden, to do her best. But the truth is, she fucked up. Fucked up big time. 

 

A lot of books have been mentioned here, and the best for me is "Outrage" by the late, great Vincent Bugliosi. Bugliosi's book was essentially a post-mortem on the prosecutions failure to convict. Some might call it Monday morning quarterbacking, but whatever one may have thought of Vincent Bugliosi, he was THE expert on prosecuting crime in Los Angeles. In particular prosecuting a high profile case. The man knew what he was talking about. So if you really want to get a handle on how the prosecution (especially Marcia Clark, though Darden is far from spared), fouled it up, read Outrage. He is so unrelenting in his criticism that I imagine a literal trip to the woodshed, rather than a figurative one, would have been preferable. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

I think he played OJ in the TV movie done in the mid-90s, so he's probably in his late 50s, early 60s by now.

Kato Kaelin is on Entertainment Tonight, saying they portrayed him as Garth from Wayne's World and they embellished what a stoner he was. I remember the trial, though, and he was regarded as a complete flake at the time, fair or not.

I watched Kato's testimony in the criminal trial. The portrayal is accurate.  It didn't say he was a stoner, but his spaceiness and incoherence matches how he came across on the stand.   Sorry Kato. That's how you were.

Edited February 4, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[RemoteControlFreak]

Judge Ito demonstrated poor taste and no common sense by commenting on and complimenting the debut of Marcia Clark's "new 'do" in open court.

Ito, Clark, Darden, et al were woefully unprepared for the reality of trying the case against Cochran with his flair for the dramatic and playing to not only the jury but the worldwide TV audience. 

A lot of books have been mentioned here, and the best for me is "Outrage" by the late, great Vincent Bugliosi. Bugliosi's book was essentially a post-mortem on the prosecutions failure to convict. Some might call it Monday morning quarterbacking, but whatever one may have thought of Vincent Bugliosi, he was THE expert on prosecuting crime in Los Angeles. In particular prosecuting a high profile case. The man knew what he was talking about. So if you really want to get a handle on how the prosecution (especially Marcia Clark, though Darden is far from spared), fouled it up, read Outrage. He is so unrelenting in his criticism that I imagine a literal trip to the woodshed, rather than a figurative one, would have been preferable. 

I agree with Bugliosi about the bumbling of the case by the DA's office., though convicting Charles Manson is a lot easier than convicting OJ Simpson.  Bugliosi had a great track record but there was never anything like the televised circus of the Simpson trial with the combination of celebrity and race played out on live TV.

Edited February 4, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[BW Manilowe]

Umbelina ~ May I presume you meant Nicole?

truelovekiss ~ As I recall, O.J. was pretty commonly called "Juice" by friends, fans and media, so that aspect didn't come as a surprise.

At least some of his fellow inmates in the Nevada prison where he's currently incarcerated on the charges involving trying to get his property back before it was sold to go towards the judgment against him in the civil trial (or whatever the situation was) also apparently call him "Juice". I read that in an article earlier this week. I think it was on People magazine's website & it was talking about whether or not he may have CTE, based on his behavior both currently & at least as far back as the time of the killings.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Exactly. What social justice was served by decapitating that poor woman (after of course beating the crap out of her for years) and murdering some kid who stumbled on the scene? How are they to blame? How does letting the killer get away with their deaths dismantle systemic racism? 

I don't think the juror's acquittal was that much of a statement toward the LA Police and its treatments of blacks, though the nationwide racially divided reaction was certainly a statement of police vs. black men in America.  

 

I think the jurors were simply tired and overwhelmed and ill-prepared for the job they were tasked with.  According to this report -- http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Jurypage.html-- only two were college graduates, none regularly read a newspaper (in 1994 this was unusual). Then they were sequestered (locked up in a hotel) for 10 months and bombarded with tons of complex evidence -- weeks alone just on the DNA results -- and "if it doesn't fit" showmanship and told (correctly) that a conviction must only come if there was proof without reasonable doubt. Add to this a prosecution that was unprepared for the skill of the defense team and almost apologetic in their tone.  Most of them seemed to have given up, assumed there was plenty of doubt, and just wanted it to be over so they could go home.

Edited February 4, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[Tunia]

This forum is off to a great start, and I am really enjoying all the insightful posts.  I think it has the potential to be the best and most interesting forum on PTV.  Your thoughts and theories are entertaining and thought-provoking.  Nice!

[AndySmith]

Ito, Clark, Darden, et al were woefully unprepared for the reality of trying the case against Cochran with his flair for the dramatic and playing to not only the jury but the worldwide TV audience.

 

Which doesn't it fall back on Ito for allowing cameras in the courtroom in the first place?

 

Also, remember during the civil trial cameras weren't allowed so some channel (I forget which) hired actors to re-enact what happened each day in court? That was hilarious.

[Ruby25]

Are there really people today though, who still believe OJ was innocent?

[SinInTheCamp]

A lot of books have been mentioned here, and the best for me is "Outrage" by the late, great Vincent Bugliosi. Bugliosi's book was essentially a post-mortem on the prosecutions failure to convict. Some might call it Monday morning quarterbacking, but whatever one may have thought of Vincent Bugliosi, he was THE expert on prosecuting crime in Los Angeles. In particular prosecuting a high profile case. The man knew what he was talking about. So if you really want to get a handle on how the prosecution (especially Marcia Clark, though Darden is far from spared), fouled it up, read Outrage. He is so unrelenting in his criticism that I imagine a literal trip to the woodshed, rather than a figurative one, would have been preferable. 

 

Came here to say the same thing. Bugliosi was a MASTER at his profession, winning 105 of his 106 prosecutorial cases, 21 of which were murder trials. Not only is his book fascinating, clearly explained, and--yes--a trip to the woodshed, but it also gives the reader a glimpse of his incredibly wry sense of humor, which I adore. Highly recommend.

I agree with Bugliosi about the bumbling of the case by the DA's office., though convicting Charles Manson is a lot easier than convicting OJ Simpson.  Bugliosi had a great track record but there was never anything like the televised circus of the Simpson trial with the combination of celebrity and race played out on live TV.

 

Respectfully, I differ with you on most of this. I've read the entire transcripts of both cases, and while Simpson was certainly no walk in the park, the Manson case was incredibly complex. Bugliosi had to try the case mostly on his own--he was the lead prosecutor and after his assistant prosecutor was dismissed from the trial, he had only Stephen Kay to help him, a prosecutor who was pretty inexperienced at the time (I don't believe he'd ever been on a murder case before). Bugliosi was trying not only Manson but three other defendants alongside him, who all had their own defense attorneys who were shuffled around at Manson's whim. One of those defense attorneys went missing during the trial (he was later found dead) and had to be replaced. As soon as he finished simultaneously trying those four defendants, he immediately went into another trial of a fifth defendant involved in the case. 

There were also seven murder victims instead of two, which meant evidence and exhibits up the wazoo, and Bugliosi had to sell the jury on a complicated motive involving Manson's plans for a race war while simultaneously arguing for both Manson's psychological hold over the other defendants as well as their own culpability and willing participation in the murders.

 

And even though cable TV wasn't around in 1970, the media circus was as extensive and pervasive as it could possibly be at the time. The case also involved celebrities (on the victim side) who were well-connected in Hollywood. Paparazzi captured footage of all the celebs in attendance at the funeral; some of it is available on YouTube. Wild rumors began circulating, and Angelinos began buying guns in record numbers and locking their doors for the first time. It was considered the trial of the century at the time and was on the TV news constantly as well as in every newspaper. As with the Simpson trial, jurors had to be sequestered for months because there was so much talk. In fact, it was such a circus that President Richard Nixon was asked his opinion on it during an unrelated press conference (unheard of and presumptuous at the time) and almost caused a mistrial when, after he opined that Manson was guilty, newspapers around the country splashed the headline "Manson Guilty, Nixon Declares!" on their front pages. It was a circus all right--the biggest one in U.S. history until OJ came along.   

[elzin]

I'd also like to endorse the Bugliosi book. I read it just last year or the year before and found it fascinating. I don't agree with everything he says, but he made coherent, rational arguments based on experience. IIRC, he dismissed the idea of the verdict being a message against police planting evidence because there was no evidence planting, but for me that argument was thin. It doesn't matter if there was or there wasn't. All that mattered is that the jury *thought* so.  It's hard to keep in mind that the jury didn't know all that we knew and what exactly their personal biases and beliefs were. There's no evidence aliens did it either, but if the jury was 10 people who thought LGM came and did it, that's what they're going to use as a basis for their verdict.