S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[stillshimpy]

I think the story relies on people assuming that Edith is justified in viewing Mrs. Drewe as a threat.  Back when Edith was visiting Marigold so much, Mrs. Drewe viewed her as an annoyance and oddly seemed to think that her interest in Marigold was too much.  She seemed almost jealous of Edith's attachment to Marigold.  So there has been a hint that Mrs. Drewe was a little unreasonable back when Marigold lived with them.   When Edith took Marigold away, Edith looked really unnerved by the evidence of Mrs. Drewe's attachment to her.  

 

However, rather than confide in Mrs. Drewe back when it would have made a difference -- because I guess Edith was just terrified that the rumor's would spread -- that Marigold was her little girl, she settled on the worst solution possible, taking Marigold away and not allowing Mrs. Drewe any access to her.  

 

So it's always been a weird "Uh....wha...?" type of dynamic between them in which both has treated the other as if they are potentially unstable and threatening.  But because Mrs. Drewe didn't understand that Edith was just visiting her child, they never could just come to any kind of understanding.   However, her massive overreaction when Edith had just taken Marigold into the garden really does indicate that Mrs. Drewe was starting to experience some disproportionate reactions when it came to the little girl. 

 

Why Edith couldn't allow Mrs. Drewe to even see Marigold again, I'll never quite understand but I take it that Mrs. Drewe taking Marigold is supposed to be a justifying moment for Edith's weird, unkind behavior towards the poor woman.  That said, Mrs. Drewe taking Marigold and scaring the crap out of everyone is actually a sign of having lost a sense of perspective. 

 

I don't know, it seems like everyone in that story is reacting in such an overblown fashion, being purposefully unkind and insensitive to each other until it all went kablooey and it's the poor Drewes who end up suffering the most, so the bulk of my sympathy is with them.  

 

I think it's my modern day perspective that just makes it impossible for me to understand why Edith wouldn't confide in anyone, even other people who love Marigold.  I guess I just can't really invest in a story where people lives are ruined, their sanity broken and their livelihood lost, all because Edith is that terrified of having anyone know she had a child out of wedlock.  I suppose the scandal might impact her job, etc. but mostly it just makes the poor Drewes look badly used and then discarded.  

 

I sort of appreciate the comedic value of it simply never occurring to Mary that Marigold (agree on the name) is Edith's child.  Just being that disinclined to ever think of Edith as having had a full life experience is -- while it would be tragic in real life -- actually sort of funny in that "well, they've cranked the dial on the sibling rivalry machine until it fell off...and then the machine burst into flames and exploded leaving complete disinterest in its wake."  

 

It was so good to see Anna cheerful again and I am just sure that everything with the wedding will work out.  

 

Apparently Daisy will have never had an interesting story, well-told in the entirety of the show.  Hey, at least it's a form on consistency!  

 

Maybe the new owner Daisy bawled out so inappropriately will welcome a good pig farmer into the fold.  I sort of hated the resolution on the Drewe story.  It's just ...if the poor woman's sanity really is currently broken, that's not her fault.  It seems such an incredibly harsh punishment to them both and to their family, when really it's only coming about because Mrs. Drewe so fully loved a child in her care that her heart was shattered when the baby was taken away.  

 

Also, I think part of it is that the actress playing Mrs. Drewe hits it out of the park and is just so fully believable that it's impossible not to feel for her.  

Edited January 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Featherhat]

Another peeve (sorry). I know that today we're supposed to value all people, no matter what class, but really, at that time are we supposed to believe all the work to uncover the why of the death of a lowly valet. I mean, really. The policeman must have come out a half dozen or more times (and from London, right, not a hop, skip, and a jump). And I hate to say it, but what did happen to Mr. Green? There was a woman involved, but how?

The police put so much time and effort into Green's (possible) murder that I assumed we were going to find out that A) He's the illegitimate son or brother of someone very powerful/important. B) He was a spy assigned to Gillingham for some reason and they thought he had uncovered important information and been killed for it or C) Someone in the government/police was determined to embarrass or shame the Crawleys and the Bates's presented themselves as the most convenient way. But apparently not.

As for why Edith hasn't fled to London with Marigold and declared her her daughter. Well she did still value her reputation and her standing in her current society and being shunned by many in her current circle, even if that circle is moving into a less publicly formal style (she's allowed to go out with men and eat in public and go to Jazz clubs etc.

She's not a open "I don't care what you think" Bright Young Thing like Rose who wants to cause a fuss by marrying a black jazz musician or who has no qualms about marrying Atticus (although I don't think Edith would mind that either) or otherwise rushing headlong happily into scandal. Nor did she develop into a literary and political bohemian deliberately casting aside previous mores and niceties.

She basically wants to have her cake and eat it too. Marigold at Downton but with the polite ongoing fiction that she's a ward (which sooner or later even everyone outside her family and close friends will take as understood) so Edith can carry on with her current life, going between Downton and the magazine. And the magazine readership might prove somewhat scandalised when they started reading out this in other papers, it's not a given that they'd keep reading.

[Avaleigh]

I think Edith summed it up well when she talked to Rosamund. She doesn't know how to live on her own, with a child. Who has she seen do that? Yes, Aunt Rosamund lives on her own but she's in a townhouse or large flat with a few servants. (I assume she has a maid in addition to a cook.) She also does not have a small child. (Is Rosamund a widow? Does she have a child(ren) that we've never met? Does she live in Grantham House or a place of her own. I always forget. Would be interesting to know more about her youth.)

 

I suppose Edith's flat has a maid's room, but what about a cook? She's got no experience cooking for herself or being on her own or raising Marigold by herself (aside from the time they ran away to a London hotel). So add in a nanny as well. I'm sure Edith, who learned to drive, can learn to live as head of household in a swanky London flat, and quite happily, it's just that the idea of it -- in addition to figuring out how to run the magazine -- must be so overwhelming.

Edith has also made it clear that she cares very much about what people think. She still wants to be able to have the same kind of comfortable lifestyle. She knows that Sybil would have been able to pull it off because Sybil had different values and didn't care so much about what society thinks or maintaining her position in it. 

 

I think the reason Lady Mary never sees the clues that Edith is Marigold's mother, is that Mary couldn't possibly picture Edith attracting a man enough to get pregnant by him.  In Mary's mind Edith is her plain, dull sister who the men always ignored when Mary was around .  Oh yes, certainly,  Edith managed to almost drag one of her own cast offs to the alter, but he was quite past a sexual relationship and there was that work friend of hers -- Grayson was it? That was surely only ever a romance in poor Edith's imagination.  While Mary herself is a passionate, femme fatale, pitting competing suitors against one another in a variety of amusing ways, Edith will always be a poor spinster wallflower.  Quite droll actually.

Edith has also given her views in the past about women who have premarital sex. There isn't anything that she's said or done since to indicate that she's changed her mind about having sex out of wedlock. Even Mary knows that she has to be very careful if she wants to be able to have sex week with Gillingham. Mary sees herself as being more of a risk taker (and even she hasn't taken that many risks) so it's unlikely to her that Edith has especially when she isn't exactly surrounded by men. Gregson must have felt like a flash in the pan and in reality it's not like the actor was in that many episodes. I don't think it's completely unbelievable that Mary hasn't put it together especially when she doesn't spend that much time thinking about Edith anyway. Edith has always spent a lot more time focusing on Mary and Mary's behavior than the other way around. 

 

It doesn't exactly help that Edith's cause when she has made references to being a "spinster" since season three. Edith puts this stuff out there on her own but it often seems to unfairly be laid at the door of her sister and parents. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Roseanna]

"Mother" can be a legal term but it's not exclusively so. In any case, it hardly matters since Edith has never willingly disclosed that fact to anyone except for Mrs. Drewe when she was grabbing Marigold away from her. Everyone else who knows, knows because they figured it out and confronted her about it or were told by someone else. And since Edith refuses to acknowledge Marigold as her biological daughter we know that she's more worried about her own reputation than she is about her child's birthright not to be lied to about who she is.

 

I think this is unfair as it doesn't take in account the period. It's easy from to demand that one must not lie but at the time not only Edith's reputation but also Marigold would be harmed if Edith publicly acknowledged her love child. She would be called with names to begin with.

 

If Marigold had stayed with Drewes, she would also lived on lie.

[RedHawk]

Ugh, Mary and Mr. Carson annoy me! 

 

Mary shudders to think anyone might call her "Auntie" to little Marigold, the ward from the lower classes. She was already "Auntie" to Sybbie, so what's the problem, other than snobbery?

 

Carson refuses to state outright that Mrs. Hughes would prefer a reception away from the estate and further complicates matters by telling Mary that Mrs. Hughes fears that a reception in one of the fine rooms at Downton would be "making a claim to which we have no right", which was an outright lie even though Carson prefaced it with "To be honest"! Mrs. Hughes is right to be put off by Carson putting Mary's feelings first.

[Roseanna]

I'm sure Edith, who learned to drive, can learn to live as head of household in a swanky London flat, and quite happily, it's just that the idea of it -- in addition to figuring out how to run the magazine -- must be so overwhelming.

 

It wouldn't be irl.

 

But because the show happens in Downton, Edith must (at least mainly) stay there.

[Kohola3]

Also what we could hear of that phone conversation--he was so, so nasty--that definitely sounds like a certain kind of dinosaur. And yes, he should be fired for foolishness and insubordination, if for nothing else.

 

in his defense (knowing very little about this situation) this is presumably a successful tabloid.  Are goofy Edith's ideas realistic or something as flighty as she is?  Perhaps he protests because he knows her goofy ideas won't fly and he doesn't want the tabloid to fail.  Again, we really don't know the circumstances so he may be entirely correct and Edith may be entirely in Lala land where she seems to live most of the time.

[fastiller]

 

Aside from what others have said about not wanting to have their wedding day at the office, I think from the beginning a major difference between Carson and Hughes has been Mrs. Hughes’ insistance that her job is a job, and while she thinks it’s a good job and the family are essentially decent people, she has no illusions of being one of them or meaning much more to them than anybody else would in her position.  Nearly every time Carson has gotten sentimental about them she’s made a snarky comment about their not deserving whatever it is he’s going above and beyond to do for them.

It's funny, I read this section of your post with Mrs. Hughes's voice in my head.

[fishcakes]

If Marigold had stayed with Drewes, she would also lived on lie.

 

If she had stayed with the Drewes, she would have lived as the adopted child of her adoptive parents, so she would not be living a lie. With Edith, she is living as the adopted child of her biological mother. Presumably at some point, Marigold will learn the truth, and if history is any indication, not from Edith. It's not even about whether she'll publicly acknowledge Marigold; she won't even privately acknowledge her to her own family until she's forced to.

[ShadowFacts]

Regarding the debacle with Mrs. Drewe: my sympathy lies with her children.  My compassion for her regarding the loss of Marigold is drowned out by her own total disregard for her children.  It is much less moving to see her moaning over Marigold while she forgets the fact that she has 3 of her own.  While no one was paying any attention to Marigold at the fair, how much attention was she paying to her own children?  None - she left them with a neighbor.  Her husband and children had to leave their home because her grief at the loss of a child that she didn't carry through pregnancy out-weighed the desire to provide for and protect the three remaining children.  Why are posters hating Edith for not paying attention to the Drewe children?  Mrs. Drewe didn't either!

 

Poorly written, but the biggest victims in the whole scenario are the three whose mother forgot all about them when it came to Marigold.

 

I view this as a tragedy for the entire Drewe family.  The way Tim Drewe was looking at his wife made me think he was silently blaming himself for the whole sorry mess.  He was trying to help Edith, which ended up seriously wounding his wife.  And now the family leaves the farm because of it.  Maybe they fare well, or at least okay, economically; maybe they don't.  And through it all Mr Drewe exhibits grace towards Robert.  Good job, Edith, it's all really for the best.  I never saw evidence that Mrs. Drewe neglected her other children.  Leaving them with the neighbor for an outing to a livestock show hardly makes them victims. Oh, and the fact she didn't carry Marigold through pregnancy is irrelevant as far as bonding goes. Edith should thank her lucky stars that her daughter was the recipient of such kind, devoted nurturing.  But nope, as far as Mr. and Mrs. Drewe go, no good deed goes unpunished.

[Crs97]

Nice to hear that if I visited Britain, i could take a child without her parents' consent if only she, knowing me goes willingly.

Actually, it could have been an interesting way to force Edith's hand. Call the police for kidnapping when the village knows the Drewes took Marigold into their home for a year and she is just Edith's ward. Would Edith be willing to show the birth certificate to the police and make it part of an official record? Could have been a nice twist to an otherwise bad story.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Crs97

[izabella]

I view this as a tragedy for the entire Drewe family.  The way Tim Drewe was looking at his wife made me think he was silently blaming himself for the whole sorry mess.  He was trying to help Edith, which ended up seriously wounding his wife.  And now the family leaves the farm because of it.  Maybe they fare well, or at least okay, economically; maybe they don't.  And through it all Mr Drewe exhibits grace towards Robert.  Good job, Edith, it's all really for the best.  I never saw evidence that Mrs. Drewe neglected her other children.  Leaving them with the neighbor for an outing to a livestock show hardly makes them victims. Oh, and the fact she didn't carry Marigold through pregnancy is irrelevant as far as bonding goes. Edith should thank her lucky stars that her daughter was the recipient of such kind, devoted nurturing.  But nope, as far as Mr. and Mrs. Drewe go, no good deed goes unpunished.

 

Makes me think this is actually good for the Drewes.  They'll be away from Downton and safe from the Crawleys before they do them any more damage, before someone blames them for murdering Gregson or something.

Edited January 11, 2016 by izabella

[marceline]

I think Edith summed it up well when she talked to Rosamund. She doesn't know how to live on her own, with a child. Who has she seen do that? Yes, Aunt Rosamund lives on her own but she's in a townhouse or large flat with a few servants. (I assume she has a maid in addition to a cook.) She also does not have a small child. (Is Rosamund a widow? Does she have a child(ren) that we've never met? Does she live in Grantham House or a place of her own. I always forget. Would be interesting to know more about her youth.)

 

I suppose Edith's flat has a maid's room, but what about a cook? She's got no experience cooking for herself or being on her own or raising Marigold by herself (aside from the time they ran away to a London hotel). So add in a nanny as well. I'm sure Edith, who learned to drive, can learn to live as head of household in a swanky London flat, and quite happily, it's just that the idea of it -- in addition to figuring out how to run the magazine -- must be so overwhelming.

 

This is where Edith could do with a little more influence from her American relations. If only she were little more like her Grandmamah Levinson.

[TVForever]

In response to the poster upthread who wondered how Mary finding out about Marigold's true identity could be used as a weapon against Edith:

 

Remember the times in which they're living. Yes, Mary is also a single mother, but she has the "respectability" of being a widow. Edith would have no such shelter as the never-married single mother of a child with a man who was still technically married to someone else (My memories of what happened to Gregson's wife are admittedly fuzzy. Please let me know if I'm way off on this). Edith's position in society would be toast, and Marigold's even worse. Now she could take Marigold and her newfound independent wealth (thanks to Gregson) and head to London, or better still, America, and have a fresh start, but Edith just isn't that strong yet. She may move in that direction by the series' end, but for now, the secret of Marigold's background really is a weapon to hold over Edith's head. 

In my opinion, the saddest aspect is that Mary's own parents realize that their daughter is just horrible enough to use such information against her own sister.

 

But that's the woman they raised...

[lucindabelle]

Meh, as far as Edith not allowing Mrs. Drewe to see Marigold, remember when the Drewes were going to up and move?

And Mr. Drewe, the wuss, KNEW THE TRUTH and still was going to effectively sever the bond.

At that point, Edith had no choice but to take the child back. Marjorie ripping up the birth certificate says it all.

Yes, today, adoptions are permanent, but that wasn't an adoption. Nothing was in writing at all.

I don't think it's fair to criticize Edith for not being bolder when all the advice she got was telling her to give up the child far away and forever. I think Marjorie was a poorly written character-- first she thought Edith had a crush on her husband, then the other way around, then she accused Edith of taking the girl when she was actually in her house.

 

Yes, Edith hasn't shown much compassion but neither has Marjorie. I've always thought she's the dumbest person alive: a little girl from a previously-unknown friend of her husband's shows up, and then suddenly, spinster from the Abbey with similar coloring comes around a lot and takes a huge interest in the child. 2 + 2? I mean Mr. Drewe figured it out immediately.

 

What Marjorie did last night was criminal, full stop. The Crawleys could press charges. I find it hard to believe it's not kidnapping in England if a child is lured to go along with somone... divorced parents, beware! Maybe it's true, but if so, it's unconscionable.

 

I pity Marjorie but I think she's unhinged and unstable at this point, and not safe to have around Marigold. Who's to say she won't tell herself next the child isn't happy at the Abbey and that justifies her running away with her?

[RedHawk]

The tug of war between Edith and Mrs. Drewe bored me from the first and I mostly just sigh over it until those scenes have passed. Will agree that the actress playing Mrs. Drewe does an excellent job. 

 

One piece of evidence that Mrs. Drewe was coming unhinged was her assertion that no one was paying any attention to Marigold. When she first spotted the child, Edith was clearly paying attention to her and helping her to view the pigs or some other livestock. It wasn't as if Mrs. Drewe saw Marigold being ignored and then wander off unnoticed, so she went to save her and ended up taking her away. Ugh. I hate the entire thing and wish it had been resolved for good last season. 

 

A lot of the storylines end up feeling overly contrived, and I wish Fellows had settled on Thomas' personality and trajectory, because I'm now totally confused about why Mr. Carson is so rude to him and even Mrs. Patmore is treating him oddly. The thing with Jimmy was settled well and they parted friends. Thomas is not a pervert nor is he a villain (anymore, right?). If he were, why are we shown how well he gets along with the children and how the staff has no worries about them being with him but oh! we must protect the new footman from evil Thomas. What a waste of the actor's talents. He was so good in the season when Thomas took a beating to save Jimmy. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

This is where Edith could do with a little more influence from her American relations. If only she were little more like her Grandmamah Levinson.

As much as I dislike Shirley MacLaine in the role, I do wish Grandma Levinson would come over and tell Edith, "She's you child, claim her!" and then, "It's your publishing house, claim it! If Mary can run the estate you can run a magazine. Now move to London and start living your life."

Edited January 12, 2016 by RedHawk

[stillshimpy]

Well maybe Fellows point here is about judging the punishing standard to which women were held and how there were no winners in all of that, only victims of this ridiculous insistence on the appearance of chastity...at all costs. 

 

He's done it before with the story of the poor maid, who threw herself at one of the soldiers, ended up pregnant, living in poverty and working as a prostitute just to survive.  Then when Isobel tried to help her, everyone judged the maid as being at fault and she eventually gave up her little boy, who she loved very much, for his own good. 

 

It's just easy for me to see both Edith and Marjorie's point of view and if they behaved heartlessly towards one another -- which they really did -- it's partially because they lived in a world that was heartless towards women when it came to these matters.  It is a recurring note in Fellowes series, so I have to think it is intentional. 

[jrlr]

in his defense (knowing very little about this situation) this is presumably a successful tabloid.  Are goofy Edith's ideas realistic or something as flighty as she is?  Perhaps he protests because he knows her goofy ideas won't fly and he doesn't want the tabloid to fail.  Again, we really don't know the circumstances so he may be entirely correct and Edith may be entirely in Lala land where she seems to live most of the time.

Edith wrote articles that were published by the paper (and even that was kind of scandalous for the family), so while she obviously doesn't know how to run the business end of publishing, I doubt that her ideas are goofy.

[mwell345]

 

Anna and Bates.... whatevs. We all know this is the last season, so they are probably going to drag out this "I can't have a baby" storyline all season and then in the finale they will miraculously find out they are having one.

 

I thought the episode was slow too.    And IMO, the Bates drag every episode down to begin with.  Just never cared for them at all. 

[TVFAN]

I'm Team Mary all the way!  She can be witch at times, but if you are her friend, she will have your back no matter what.  She is the Dowager Countess all over again.  Sure she is highhanded, but she has stepped in to help the servants time and time again.  When William's mother was dying, it was Mary who made sure he got to see her.  When Carson got sick, Edith complained about the inconvenience while Mary went to visit him and made sure he was being cared for.  When Sybil married Tom, Mary (and Matthew) befriended him.  When Anna went to jail, Mary put her own reputation on the line to visit her.  If I had to choose between working for Edith and working for Mary, I would choose Mary in a heartbeat.  She rewards loyalty.  

 

This episode again highlighted how much Mary  cares.  Mrs. Hughes may not be a fan of a wedding at the Abbey, but in all honesty, I think Mary knows Carson better than his bride-to-be does.   The Abbey is his shrine.  There is nowhere on earth that he would rather hold his reception.  Mary's kindness meant the world to him.  Of course, he and Mrs. Hughes must both like their reception site, but Mary's offer came from the heart.  And Mary did not simply make an appointment for Anna or pay for her visit to the doctor.  Instead, she went with her so that she would not have to face the news alone.  

[TomGirl]

So, when are Baxter and Molesley gonna get together already!?!?

[Avaleigh]

It's just easy for me to see both Edith and Marjorie's point of view and if they behaved heartlessly towards one another -- which they really did -- it's partially because they lived in a world that was heartless towards women when it came to these matters.  It is a recurring note in Fellowes series, so I have to think it is intentional. 

The reason I'm more upset with Edith in terms of her treatment of Mrs. Drewe is that she went into the situation lying to the woman. She used her and lied to her and was deceptive right from the start.

 

We don't know how Mrs. Drewe would have behaved towards Edith and about the visiting if Edith had wanted to trust her with the truth the way that she was willing to trust Mr. Drewe. If Mr. Drewe wasn't comfortable with his wife know the truth then Edith didn't have to go through them. She chose to do that so I can't help but wonder what might have been if Edith hadn't treated Mrs. Drewe unfairly from the beginning. 

 

Meh, as far as Edith not allowing Mrs. Drewe to see Marigold, remember when the Drewes were going to up and move?

To be fair though, Mrs. Drewe wanted to move when Edith refused to stop visiting and showing up uninvited and the Drewes were in a position where they were on Edith's father's land. It was awkward and it wasn't like Mrs. Drewe was in possession of all of the facts. Mr. Drewe was 100% wrong for not confiding in his wife but Edith also wanted it to remain a secret. It wasn't like she went to Mr. Drewe and was like 'hey, one of us needs to tell her.' When Edith did learn that Mrs. Drewe was suspicious of why Edith was coming over so much, Edith didn't really care once she learned that Mrs. Drewe didn't suspect the truth. Mrs. Drewe started to fear that there was something that Edith was hiding from her she just got her signals crossed.  

[stillshimpy]

And Mary did not simply make an appointment for Anna or pay for her visit to the doctor.  Instead, she went with her so that she would not have to face the news alone.

 

I've always liked Mary also, even if I think her relationship with Edith is almost comically overblown in the disinterested chill department, I like her and I liked that rather than try to soothe her with platitudes, Mary had a ready solution, insisted on it and stayed with her.  

 

I also very much get the sense that the actors who play Mary and Edith have a ton of fun with the whole thing and are actually good friends.  Both characters are a little bit too much to be believed at times , but I have fun watching their interactions.   After the first season, that is.  That first season was just painful, because it was far less cartoonish in the "Are you kidding me with this stuff?" 

 

ETA:  

 

The reason I'm more upset with Edith in terms of her treatment of Mrs. Drewe is that she went into the situation lying to the woman. She used her and lied to her and was deceptive right from the start.

 

Well and it is easier for me to have the bulk of my sympathy land with Mrs. Drewe because she was everyone's tool of convenience and no one's first thought throughout.  Mr. Drewe was in the wrong for lying to her from the get-go...either do that as partners, or don't do it at all....Edith used her to have proximity to her child.  

 

Mrs. Drewe was everyone's victim in that and she didn't win on any level.  Again, her only sin is really that she loved a little girl she was asked to care for too much. ..and it's really hardly any sin in the eyes of most. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Featherhat]

This is where Edith could do with a little more influence from her American relations. If only she were little more like her Grandmamah Levinson.

Grandmama Levinson (Like Grandmama Violet) has the "don't care what you think" personality to get through it, but Edith turning up with her daughter/"ward" in Chicago or New England might have been better than London and very hopefully better than Downton, but the types she might naturally have felt comfortable mixing with (high society) as a whole aren't going to be all "oh isn't your little daughter adorable" at least publicly.

Even Cora's father was desperate for High Society or he wouldn't have signed away Cora's dowry on the "hopefully" that they would have a son. His wife isn't like that but lots of their friends were.

[lucindabelle]

Mrs. Drewe was everyone's victim in that and she didn't win on any level.  Again, her only sin is really that she loved a little girl she was asked to care for too much. ..and it's really hardly any sin in the eyes of most. 

 

Right up to the point where she KNEW the truth and decided it didn't matter. Ripped up the birth certificate. I mean, come on. At that point she'd stopped seeing Edith as a person at all. She was angry with Edith because Edith wanted to be involved... and why did she want to be involved? The birth certificate-- she's her mother. And Marjorie's all "la la la la can't hear you". Had that been the only birth certificate, Marjorie wouldn't have cared.

 

And also, right up unto the point where she STOLE the little girl, last night. Yes the little girl wandered off... she'd just met the nice lady the day before. But Marjorie knew what alarm she'd cause... she knew because she completely panicked when she thought Edith had taken the child, and hadn't even!

 

This to me makes her at best unhinged, at worst hypocritical. I'm going with unhinged.

[Clanstarling]

I don't think I can add a thing to the Edith/Drewes commentary - the case on both sides (and the middle ground as well) has all been very well written and argued. Nor do I have much to say about Mrs. Hughes' position on where to have the wedding - for the same reasons (I'm in Hughes' court, myself).

 

I thought it was a strange acting/directing choice to have Anna and Mary share a little laugh about dragging Pamuk's body through the halls. Such fun times they had! Should they giggle about Mr. Green too?

 

I found the episode a bit draggy, myself. My attention wandered more often than usual.

[stillshimpy]

Right up to the point where she KNEW the truth and decided it didn't matter. Ripped up the birth certificate. I mean, come on. At that point she'd stopped seeing Edith as a person at all. She was angry with Edith because Edith wanted to be involved... and why did she want to be involved? The birth certificate-- she's her mother.

 

I think that if this series had been about the lives of the tenant farmers at Downton Abbey, it would be a lot easier to see things solely from Mrs. Drewe's perspective, because what really happened there as far as she was concerned?  Marjorie had repeatedly raised objections to Edith visiting, because Edith seemed oddly attached to a little girl Marjorie was raising as her own, and viewed as her own.  

 

She repeatedly talked to her husband about how she didn't think it was appropriate that Edith was visiting as much as she did.  Right down the line, her husband, the man who likely swore in a freaking church to honor her above all others, lied as to why that was occurring.  Why? Because Edith asked him to.  

 

I'm not damning Edith here, at all.  She was in an impossible position, but of course Marjorie tore up that birth certificate, lashed out and acted very badly indeed.  Just think about everything she was finding out in that moment.  That her husband, the father of her children, the person who asked her to do this in the first place, had been lying to her all that time.  And why?  Because the Lord's daughter had asked him to.  Wouldn't you be stung to the core?  I'd be fucking destroyed and then Marigold was also being taken away from her, at the exact same time. 

 

So her heart is under assault from every known angle.  Child being taken away: Oh hey, your husband has betrayed you and lied to you.  Been part of using you.  At that moment the only thing she would know was true were her own feelings, because she was shockingly, horribly lied to by everyone above the height of two feet tall in that room. 

 

She didn't react well, but I submit to you that no one would.  And pardon me for saying so, but I'd be kicking some ass rather than tearing up a piece of paper, presented to me as a reason for breaking my heart.  And I take kickboxing.   It was like presented for a bill of sale for her own heart's blood.  

 

Yeah, she sucked in that moment.   Who wouldn't? 

Edited January 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[lucindabelle]

Oh sure. I totally agree her reaction is understandable. And I think Mr. Drewe has a lot to answer for.

[statsgirl]

IMO, Mrs Hughes is acting like a reverse snob...not wanting the main hall of the Abbey for the reception. The Crawleys should have called it a "wedding gift" to her and Carson, since both have given many years of service to the family.

 

Mrs Hughes and Carson have become used to acting high and mighty in their important jobs. I wonder if they can relax and accept each other as equals once they are married.

They will never be equals, Mrs. Hughes even put it into words that for the rest of their lives, they will be doing what he wants and so she just wants this one day to happen her way.

 

If Lady Mary hadn't been determined to have the reception at Downton, I suspect Carson would have been fine having it wherever Mrs. Hughes wanted.  The problem is that Carson has always given in to whatever Mary wanted. It's like she is his child but because he can't discipline her, all he can do to love her is give her what she wants.  Mary is very much like Violet but Violet is saved as a character by having another strong character (Isobel) oppose her and it leads to some delightful scenes. No one opposes Mary, not really, and so she can freely behave in the most awful ways.

 

I wish Mrs. Hughes had an alternative to marrying Carson.  He tends to behave like a pompous ass at the best of times but putting Lady Mary's wishes ahead of his future wife's is really too much.

 

Isn't it a bit rude for everyone to keep Mary in the dark like this?  Especially Anna?  I know Anna is only a servant, but she isn't Edith's lady's maid, Edith had that other lady we never saw but only heard mentioned.  If Anna indeed knows, I bet Mary will be hurt when she finds out that Anna didn't tell her.

Anna only suspects, not knows.  And it isn't her secret to tell.

 

Why does no one tell Mary that Marigold is Edith's child?  Because she can't be trusted.  She's a loose canon, she's consistently bitchy to Edith and she can't be trusted to behave honorably with the knowledge.  She'll use it against Edith and she may even use it against Marigold.  If I were Edith, I wouldn't trust Mary not to hurt Marigold as a way to get at me.  ("Headmistress, I heard that my sister wants Marigold to attend your school. I feel it only right to tell you that Marigold is not the ward of my sister but her illegitimate child and so not the standard of student you have here."

 

Edith said that it would be easier to take Marigold to live with her in London but it's healthier for Marigold to live in the country.  This would be true, especially given the amount of pollution in London at the time.  Those paintings of Turner's were not just his imagination but an actual reflection of the sun shining through the pollution in post industrial times.

 

Since you want to be technical about it, under UK law, what Mrs. Drewe did was not kidnapping. Kidnapping requires taking someone against her will, using force or fraud, without that person's consent, and without legal justification. Since no one knew Marigold was gone until she was happily ensconced in Mrs. Drewe's lap at home, I assume that three of those elements were not met (the exception being consent, since a child as young as Marigold is presumed to be unable to give consent). Rather, I'm sure Marigold went away happily with the woman she considers her mother.

 

For what it's worth, I think that's a badly crafted law, but what do I know. I've only been a lawyer in criminal practice for 18 years.

I'll take your word for the letter of the law (maybe it's abduction?) but taking a young child from the people she is with is illegal in any country. 

I've been a psychotherapist for longer than 18 years and in my view, Mrs. Drew was behaving in a mentally unstable way.

 

 

And since Edith refuses to acknowledge Marigold as her biological daughter we know that she's more worried about her own reputation than she is about her child's birthright not to be lied to about who she is.

This is England in the 1920s, where it would have been a grave social sin to be illegitimate in that class.  I can remember even back in the 1960s when young women were giving up their babies for adoption because of the shame of being an illegitimate child.

 

Edith may well have been saving her own reputation but she was also saving Marigold's.  When Marigold is old enough to know what to do with the information, she probably would have been told.

 

 

Actually, it could have been an interesting way to force Edith's hand. Call the police for kidnapping when the village knows the Drewes took Marigold into their home for a year and she is just Edith's ward. Would Edith be willing to show the birth certificate to the police and make it part of an official record?

The police would have kept quiet about the name on the birth certificate because of Edith's status, and Mrs. Drewe would have gone to jail. This way was kinder to Mrs. Drew.

 

But it never would have come to looking at the birth certificate.  Lord Grantham would have told the police Mrs. Drewe took a child that everyone knew was their ward, Drewe would have agreed that the Crawleys had the legal right to Marigold and Mrs. Drewe would have gone to jail.

Edited January 12, 2016 by statsgirl

[Constantinople]

I thought it was a strange acting/directing choice to have Anna and Mary share a little laugh about dragging Pamuk's body through the halls. Such fun times they had! Should they giggle about Mr. Green too?

 

You can't take the laughter out of manslaughter.

[txhorns79]

Carson refuses to state outright that Mrs. Hughes would prefer a reception away from the estate and further complicates matters by telling Mary that Mrs. Hughes fears that a reception in one of the fine rooms at Downton would be "making a claim to which we have no right", which was an outright lie even though Carson prefaced it with "To be honest"! Mrs. Hughes is right to be put off by Carson putting Mary's feelings first.

 

I'm honestly surprised she isn't reconsidering the engagement.  I can't imagine being in a marriage where my spouse seems more interested in what the daughter of our employer wants for my wedding than me.  And I know Carson has a special relationship with Lady Mary, but jeez man!  Priorities. 

 

Also, how is it that no one has told Daisy to shut up yet?  I can't imagine another episode of listening to her whine about how she's ruined things with her big mouth. 

 

 

This to me makes her at best unhinged, at worst hypocritical. I'm going with unhinged.

 

I sympathize heavily with Mrs. Drewe, but she lost me when she decided the best course of action was to just take Marigold back, and freak everyone out. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by txhorns79

[tenativelyyours]

A big problem for me is that Edith, like Mary, serves as a vessel for broad sweeping generalities that actually are Fellowes applying faulty hindsight.  Sure the British were a bit straight laced even once the Victorian era had passed.  But during before and after the richer and more titled you were the more you got away with.  There were divorced and separated women of the aristocracy that had kids out of wedlock.  Publicly acknowledged.  Usually with other aristocrats.  This with Edith is years after Vicky Melita.  It is at a time when British royals were partying with Alice Roosevelt who never hid her daughter was not her husband's.

 

Would it have been a scandal?  Yes. But not the one that Fellowes seems to think.  The nation did not go into a collective throttling pearl grasping over such things by this time.  A second daughter of a rusticated Earl in the north?  A five second sensation until the Prince of Wales got on with another married woman, the dashing (and shades of Prince William at his best) Duke of Kent got his picture in the paper or more news of the Happy Valley set which was starting up yet again.  Julian Fellowes is a bit like Sarah Palin and her supposed abstinent daughter with the babies.  Maintain one thing despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Crs97]

Regarding whether to tell Mary her secret - We have already seen what Edith did with scandalous information about Mary; if she is predicting Mary's actions by her own inclinations, then she is right to be very afraid.

[Artymouse]

Mary was a bit of a steamroller in this episode. She's determined that Carson's wedding will be at the Abbey. She decided that Anna would go to her doctor in London. She insisted on taking the kids to the pig farm, totally oblivious to the subtle protests of everyone else.

I like Mary, and I'm happy she used her steamroller powers for good in Anna's case. And while I get Carson's point about the wedding, I'm totally Team Hughes on this one. I mean, the woman has probably never had a day where others tended to her needs, made sure she looked as beautiful as she wanted to look, when she didn't have to look out for everyone else's needs and watch what she says, rather than being herself.

The hospital battle bored me to death. I think this is the first episode in which Violet said nothing I found entertaining or memorable.

[RedHawk]

I thought it was a strange acting/directing choice to have Anna and Mary share a little laugh about dragging Pamuk's body through the halls. Such fun times they had! Should they giggle about Mr. Green too?

 

 

I know! Shocked me a bit. "Oh, wasn't that a lark, when we carried the dead body of my first lover through the corridors in the dark of night."

 

Poor Mr. Pamuk.

 

Ok, it was rather funny that they laughed at it, and the laugh was almost a "oh boy, can you believe that happened to us?" kind of thing. This show is a soap, after all, most of the time, and the Pamuk story was the first over-the-top shockingly funny and memorable thing ever to happen on "Downton".

Edited January 12, 2016 by RedHawk

[caligirl50]

Crs97 - Yes!  Edith wrote to the embassy and called Mary a slut over the Pamuk scandal, never considering what this would do to the Crawley name.  For Edith to be in a worse situation, well, eating crow comes to mind. Also, Mary never told her mother what Edith did, which I found pretty generous.  I think Cora would have been incensed.

Edited January 12, 2016 by caligirl50

[morakot]

But wasn't Edith about 17 when she wrote to the Turkish embassy? My ideas about sex have changed dramatically over the years -- wouldn't you expect that with Edith?

[Artymouse]

That's true; a petulant teenager is sure to have a much different viewpoint than a 30-something woman.

All that aside, I really felt for Mrs. Drewe. And Mr. Drewe too, for that matter. But to me, Edith's worst moment was when she took Marigold from Drewe and didn't say thank you. Seems like the very least she could do in that situation.

[Avaleigh]

I don't believe for a second that Mary or Carson imagines that all of the servants would work through the wedding and work through the party. Just the fact that Mary thinks the servants hall isn't good enough for the day suggests to me that they'd bring in outside help for the day. 

 

My impression was that Mrs. Hughes doesn't want to feel like a servant on her wedding day and being in Downton reminds her that she is a servant. If they had a nice alternative for a venue then I could see why they'd want to go elsewhere. They don't have any ties to any other place and it this is probably the nicest place that they'd be able to have the ceremony. And it would be a free venue you'd think that would be a huge bonus for something expensive like a wedding. It's not like they just want to go down to a registry with a couple of witnesses. They want to have a big party too.  

 

I work at a five star hotel and I can promise you that if I lucked out in being able to use one of the amazing ballrooms for my wedding reception and the property offered to comp it, I'd be over the moon and wouldn't hesitate to say yes. Mrs. Hughes is acting like it's an imposition and she hasn't said anything about not wanting her friends to have to work on the day so I don't really think it's about that. 

 

But wasn't Edith about 17 when she wrote to the Turkish embassy? My ideas about sex have changed dramatically over the years -- wouldn't you expect that with Edith?

Edith was in her early twenties (about 22)--old enough to know better and to know what she was doing was wrong. She always been very lucky that Mary never told anybody else what she'd done because they all would have been disgusted with her, Sybil too. Edith judged Mary so harshly for her sexuality that it isn't surprising that the view would stay with Mary long after the incident especially since Mary had to deal with the consequences of Edith's betrayal for years after the fact. 

 

Mary has no specific reason to think that Edith has been having sex with any of the men she's had relationships with. Her parents didn't suspect it while it was going on and Rosamund only found out because she saw Edith staying out for herself and Edith eventually confessed. Even among the downstairs set there are only two people who know and again, both have been privy to information that Mary hasn't had. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Avaleigh

[jschoolgirl]

I don't know if Edith is unsympathetic to Mrs. Drewe or was just so shook up from the missing -Marigold event that all she could do was clutch her in the car. I would love for Edith to go talk to her with sympathy, but I'm sure she remembers how much hatred Mrs. Drewe has for her, the physical attack and the torn-up birth certificate weren't that long ago.

------

Mrs. Drewe attacked Edith?

[Dejana]

A big problem for me is that Edith, like Mary, serves as a vessel for broad sweeping generalities that actually are Fellowes applying faulty hindsight.  Sure the British were a bit straight laced even once the Victorian era had passed.  But during before and after the richer and more titled you were the more you got away with.  There were divorced and separated women of the aristocracy that had kids out of wedlock.  Publicly acknowledged.  Usually with other aristocrats.  This with Edith is years after Vicky Melita.  It is at a time when British royals were partying with Alice Roosevelt who never hid her daughter was not her husband's.

 

Would it have been a scandal?  Yes. But not the one that Fellowes seems to think.  The nation did not go into a collective throttling pearl grasping over such things by this time.  A second daughter of a rusticated Earl in the north?  A five second sensation until the Prince of Wales got on with another married woman, the dashing (and shades of Prince William at his best) Duke of Kent got his picture in the paper or more news of the Happy Valley set which was starting up yet again.  Julian Fellowes is a bit like Sarah Palin and her supposed abstinent daughter with the babies.  Maintain one thing despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

Alice Roosevelt Longworth was married when she gave birth. The "real" Downton entered the 1920s with a countess whose "godfather" had been a wealthy banker; he provided a dowry upon her marriage to keep Highclere afloat. Still, she wasn't born to an unmarried mother. Even if "everyone" "knew" the father was someone else, the child having married parents meant there wasn't a huge blank space on the birth certificate. It a was a polite fiction that offered a sliver of respectability that unwed mothers and "illegitimate" children didn't receive in the 1920s (and beyond). It might seem all the same to us in the 2010s—a child whose mother and father aren't married to each other at the time of birth—but it really wasn't back then. Much of the society that Edith can't fathom abandoning would've been all sneeringly Larry Merton about it and snubbed Edith from everything.

 

Downton's a grand estate but I can't blame Mrs. Hughes for not wanting to get married at work. Of course, Carson is the biggest snob of all so he adores the idea. Mary is being a bit pushy about the whole thing but she really is just trying to be nice. Still, Carson's not marrying her so you would think he'd want to get his marriage started on the right foot and make his bride-to-be happy.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Dejana

[morakot]

 

 Edith was in her earl​y twenties (about 22) -- old enough to know better and to know what she was doing was wrong.

 

According to the Downton Abbey wikia, Edith was born in 1892 and would have been between 19 and 20. She was still innocent (though out) and probably both romantic and prudish.

[crowceilidh]

I expect that Edith will eventually fire the editor in some snit that makes it difficult to find a replacement and then her drama will be all about trying to be an editor with no experience or job training.

 

Mary was in the pen when the pig was being judged because she's the Downton agent; Lord Merton is not the agent for his estate - that was my understanding.

[Avaleigh]

According to the Downton Abbey wikia, Edith was born in 1892 and would have been between 19 and 20. She was still innocent (though out) and probably both romantic and prudish.

The letter confrontation was in 1914. The Pamuk inicident happened in 1913. She was roughly 22 but could have been 21 I don't know the birth month of the character. She definitely wasn't 17 or a teenager. In any case I think Sybil at 18 would have known better. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Avaleigh

[jrlr]

According to the Downton Abbey wikia, Edith was born in 1892 and would have been between 19 and 20. She was still innocent (though out) and probably both romantic and prudish.

I don't think it has anything to do with being romantic or prudish.  Edith saw it as a perfect way to seriously stick it to Mary (and possibly ruin her life) since the two sisters already despised each other and Mary always seemed to have the upper hand.

[SusanSunflower]

I was surprised Anna didn't react to all the happiness downstairs ... the last time downstairs was alive with laughter and music and such, she was raped ... It jarred me ... 

I think Mrs. Hughes wants a wedding party in a place where those in attendance can kick up their heels. (and maybe have a drink or two).  For Upstairs, Mrs. Patmore can prepare a cold dinner that can be managed as a buffet and local daily help and Moseley (or some designated unlucky soul -- maybe Spratt and Denker? can manage and supervise) ... Seems perfectly reasonable to me to want the freedom of being out of sight, out of hearing and out of someone watching who comes and goes. Better, and truly generous would be giving everyone who can be managed without the evening off -- priceless -- and that wouldn't happen with Anna and Bates and other anticipating putting upstairs to bed, etc. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[statsgirl]

Edith probably resented Mary's constant needling of her and catching Mary in not only a lie but also immorality, she saw a chance..  It was wrong of Edith to do it but that's really the last time I remember Edith being nasty to Mary whereas Mary is constantly putting her down.  She includes Tom but not Edith in her sibling things and even last episode, she "corrected" Edith that it was  Gregson's apartment not hers.When Edith learned that Gregson died, Mary was insulted that people were paying attention to Edith rather than her own new look.

 

I work at a five star hotel and I can promise you that if I lucked out in being able to use one of the amazing ballrooms for my wedding reception and the property offered to comp it, I'd be over the moon and wouldn't hesitate to say yes.

It's not quite the same though. You're not a servant at the hotel and I presume you go home at night.  For Mrs. Hughes, Downton Abbey is where she's a servant and lives all the time and people give her orders and just once, on her wedding day, she'd like to forget all that and be the mistress. If she's still having to bow to the Crawleys in their own home, then she still feels like a servant.

 

Just how careful the servants  have to be with regards to their behaviour among the gentry was highlighted by Daisy expecting to be fired for speaking out to the new owner of the other property.  She was on her own time, she didn't do anything illegal or even offensive but Daisy, Carson and probably a number of other servants and gentry expected her to be fired for speaking up.  Servants  have to be careful how they behave and speak around their employers, even on their own time and place.

[LadyintheLoop]

Rather, I'm sure Marigold went away happily with the woman she considers her mother.

 

 

But Marigold didn't react as if she'd found Mummy again at last; she just giggled at the nice lady who was cooing at her. I don't think she'd ever forgotten the woman who not only bore her, but nursed her for several months; IIRC, Mrs. Drewe's very first line in the series was something like "Wonderful how she's taken to you, m'lady."

 

And since Edith refuses to acknowledge Marigold as her biological daughter we know that she's more worried about her own reputation than she is about her child's birthright not to be lied to about who she is.

 

 

Illegitimacy disgraced the child as well as the parents.  

 

However, her massive overreaction when Edith had just taken Marigold into the garden really does indicate that Mrs. Drewe was starting to experience some disproportionate reactions when it came to the little girl.

 

 

She was starting to realize that Edith's attachment to the child was wildly out of proportion to the "facts" -- it was crazy for an earl's daughter to be so smitten with a working-class orphan, so the problem had to be with Edith. Her own husband would never lie to her, would he?

 

 

At that point, Edith had no choice but to take the child back.

 

 

She had no choice because the Dowager and Rosamund were about to spirit her away to a "school" for little embarrassments. Whoever got to raise her, it wouldn't be the Drewes. 

[Constantinople]

Why does Anna refer to her husband as Mr. Bates even when they are alone?

I don't know. It's weird, and I don't think it's the first time.

 

Does he even have a first name?

When he first arrived at Downton, he introduced himself as John Bates.

Of course, he was a convicted thief at the time.