S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[sacrebleu]

 

Marigold is such a lackadaisical child. She acts weak and undernourished for her age.She doesn't seem bright and curious, for the most part. I wonder if she is r*******.

I don't blame the child actors. At this point, they're not supposed to be much more than props. I think child actors are hired to sit there and look cute, you certainly wouldn't want a chatty hyper kid because it would take 18 takes to get any scene done.

 

I'm baffled over the Thomas stuff. Are we supposed to feel sympathy for him now? He spent most of the series run sabotaging Bates, lying to make himself look better, stealing from his employers and didn't he try to shoot himself to get out of the army?

 

Now we're supposed to feel bad because no one at Downton likes him?

 

I'm also a little concerned about the Bunt-ification of Daisy. Especially if she's gonna start asking for audiences with the lady of the manor and asking her to fix her mistakes.

[Roseanna]

 

Did Daisy consummate her marriage ?  I don't think they ever did because he was going to die and everyone knew it.  

 

 

 

No. William married Daisy lying on his deathbed and died soon after (on the same day?). 

 

Daisy would hardly consented to marriage if it hasn't been a formality. Although she after that also made much noise about not being entitled to a war widow's pension as she wasn't his "proper" wife.

[fishcakes]

Mrs. Drewe is not mentally ill. When she first adopted Marigold, she wasn't suspicious and possessive; she accepted Edith's visits with grace. But then Edith started coming every day, staying longer, and forcing the Drewes to stop their work and sit there and serve her tea and chat for hours on end, while Edith snuggled with Marigold and gave her gifts and ignored the other children. That was what prompted her to ask Mr. Drewe to speak to Edith about her daily visits, which Edith ignored. So Mrs. Drewe had no choice but to put her foot down and be rude to Edith. As for her being panicked the day she thought that Edith had snatched Marigold, considering that Edith ultimately did snatch Marigold, that doesn't strike me as crazy so much as prescient. Now, Mrs. Drewe absolute should not have taken Marigold from the stock show, but to say that proves she's mentally ill as a way of justifying Edith's monstrosity is ridiculous. She didn't flee the country with the girl; she took her to her own home, knowing that she would have to return her, and when her husband appeared, she did just that without an argument. She was wrong to do what she did, but she's not crazy.

 

Edith can't feel sympathy for or empathy with Mrs. Drewe because Edith doesn't know what it is to love a child. She only wants Marigold because she wants Marigold to love her -- she's like those neglected teenage girls who used to populate all the trash talk shows in the 90s who would get pregnant on purpose so that they would have someone who loved them and belonged to them alone. Not that Edith got pregnant on purpose, but she never intended to raise Marigold until after she learned that Gregson wasn't coming back to her and she thought she'd be alone. People keep saying, "Edith is her mother," but she's not. Mrs. Drewe was her mother, and probably the woman in Switzerland was her mother. Edith was just the surrogate and now she's just the benefactress. She's no more a mother than she is a magazine publisher.

[Spunkygal]

Remember when Robert had a heart scare a while back, and it turned out to be an ulcer?  I wonder if he has another episode of this and the old fashioned hospital doesn't work for him?  That would be an interesting side story to the Isobel and Violet controversy.

Or.....Mary and Edith finally have a kick ass, hair pulling, eye gouging catfight of such magnificent proportions that the ugly and painful aftermath exhausts the resources of the local hospital and they both have to be rushed to London in those fancy motorcars for treatment. Then Edith's magazine/newspaper can publish all the salacious details. Now that's a finale I'd watch over and over!

[kassa]

I like the quiet episodes, because the very talented cast actually have time to act like regular people going about every day life and not merely be hurtling from one plot point to the next.  And since I’m fond of most of them, I like to see them in their natural (not hyper-intense) environments.

I don't get Mrs. Hughes' resistance to having their wedding at the Abbey.

 

 

Aside from what others have said about not wanting to have their wedding day at the office, I think from the beginning a major difference between Carson and Hughes has been Mrs. Hughes’ insistance that her job is a job, and while she thinks it’s a good job and the family are essentially decent people, she has no illusions of being one of them or meaning much more to them than anybody else would in her position.  Nearly every time Carson has gotten sentimental about them she’s made a snarky comment about their not deserving whatever it is he’s going above and beyond to do for them.

 

While she’s a staid and trustworthy person of authority downstairs, she’s also a realist and she welcomes the way the world is changing around her.  She was an early toaster adopter, remember.

 

This whole 'Mary is so horrible she would use Marigold as a weapon against her sister'-angle is ridiculous. And I say that as someone who does not like Lady Mary. In what way could Mary use the girl against her sister?

 

 

I suspect it’s more about dreading raised eyebrows and snarky remarks for the next 40 years.  Not in front of outsiders, so much just digs in private.  Even when not being deliberately cruel, Mary can be very casually cruel.  The Dowager herself has called Mary out on her lack of compassion, and not too many months before when Gregson’s death was confirmed, Mary actually rolled her eyes and in her “I’m so bored” voice said it wasn’t as if it was unexpected. (Out of Edith’s presence, I think, but just a sign of her willingness to take a shot even at someone in deep mourning.)

 

Edith gets married and pregnant?  “Oh, how novel for you!”

Edited January 11, 2016 by kassa

[Roseanna]

Did Cora use Marigold in order for Daisy's father-in-law to take over the Drews farm?  She saw how Mrs. Drew acted towards Marigold and knew Mr. Drew would be entering his pigs at the fair.  Did she set-up them up knowing full well that Mrs. Drew's emotional stability would be pushed over the edge if she saw Marigold not being paid attention to?

 

Of course not. Nobody simply could have done that.

 

Or, if there was so a ingenious person, she wouldn't have care of Marigold at all.  

[TheGreenKnight]

As the storyline's been written, most of the blame (to me) falls on Mr. Drewe for distrusting his wife's competence and ability to deal with the situation. I guess I can still manage not to hate Edith here because of Rosamund/Violet's role early on, not to mention the consequences that could be expected for both her and the child if the truth were revealed. And, tbh, I think her desire to keep the whole thing a secret from Mary made sense at the end of season 5 considering the relationship they've always had since before the series began. Even Cora could understand why that may be a good decision; she knows her girls very well. I feel this whole thing is being setup as a reversal of roles with the Pamuk situation. Of course, Edith managed to learn about that much faster than Mary with Marigold.

 

Most of the problems with this storyline are coming from the intersection of gender issues and social status differences. Edith being indifferent to Mrs. Drewe makes sense considering how we've seen the family act to those below them throughout the series. It's not flattering, but it wouldn't be out-of-character for any of the family to act the same way outside of Isobel (or Sybil). That was made apparent while Mary in this same episode did her best to lock Carson into marriage at the Abbey.

[Roseanna]

Does everybody in the family except for Mary know about Edith and Marigold?  I know that Cora and Robert and Rosamund know.  Does Violet know?  Which of the servants know?  It seems like Anna knows, based on the way she was all edgy about it, but I can't remember how and why she knows.

 

Isn't it a bit rude for everyone to keep Mary in the dark like this?  Especially Anna?  I know Anna is only a servant, but she isn't Edith's lady's maid, Edith had that other lady we never saw but only heard mentioned.  If Anna indeed knows, I bet Mary will be hurt when she finds out that Anna didn't tell her.

 

You may be right that Mary would be hurt to those who had known and hadn't told her. But she would be absolutely wrong because it's not their secret to tell. How could Mary trust that Anna or Cora keep her secrets (remember Pamuk affair) from others if they told her other's secrets?

 

Anna figured out because she saw Edith leave the train and then Mr Drewe in a train with Marigold and she told Mrs Hughes who told her keep quiet.

 

Violet figured out already when Edith was pregnant.

[Roseanna]

Mrs. Drewe is not mentally ill. When she first adopted Marigold, she wasn't suspicious and possessive; she accepted Edith's visits with grace. But then Edith started coming every day, staying longer, and forcing the Drewes to stop their work and sit there and serve her tea and chat for hours on end, while Edith snuggled with Marigold and gave her gifts and ignored the other children. That was what prompted her to ask Mr. Drewe to speak to Edith about her daily visits, which Edith ignored. So Mrs. Drewe had no choice but to put her foot down and be rude to Edith. As for her being panicked the day she thought that Edith had snatched Marigold, considering that Edith ultimately did snatch Marigold, that doesn't strike me as crazy so much as prescient. Now, Mrs. Drewe absolute should not have taken Marigold from the stock show, but to say that proves she's mentally ill as a way of justifying Edith's monstrosity is ridiculous. She didn't flee the country with the girl; she took her to her own home, knowing that she would have to return her, and when her husband appeared, she did just that without an argument. She was wrong to do what she did, but she's not crazy.

 

 

I don't think any court would accept the defense that bringing a child to one's home isn't kidnapping.

 

It's in fact kind to say that Mrs Drewe has at least now mental problems, for otherwise she made a serious crime

[helenamonster]

Mary was kind to Anna and went a bit out of her way for her, but if a boss seeing that the employees get proper medical care makes them a saint, so is Walmart.

 

I don't know. It's not as though Anna is terminally ill, and her job doesn't come with health benefits. I doubt Walmart gives a fuck about their employees' fertility status. Mary helping Anna seemed less like an employer doing their duty with an employee and more like one friend helping out another, remembering all the times that same friend has helped her.

 

I am almost positive Thomas knocked down Mr. Bates, but with O'Brien's complete approval. They were planning how to oust Bates from the house.

 

It was definitely O'Brien.

 

Does everybody in the family except for Mary know about Edith and Marigold?  I know that Cora and Robert and Rosamund know.  Does Violet know?  Which of the servants know?  It seems like Anna knows, based on the way she was all edgy about it, but I can't remember how and why she knows.

 

Rosamund was the first to know, and Violet figured it out and confronted Edith and Rosamund before they went to Switzerland. Mrs. Drewe told Cora after Edith took Marigold to London, and Anna saw the whole switcheroo with Mr. Drewe on the train and relayed her suspicions to Mrs. Hughes (they both also saw the picture of Marigold that Edith kept under her pillow when they were cleaning Edith's room after the fire). Robert figured it out as well and told Cora but Cora told him not to tell Edith that he knew yet, so as far as Edith knows, Robert doesn't know.

 

Where is Phoebe Buffay when you need her? "They don't know that we know they know we know!"

 

I'm baffled over the Thomas stuff. Are we supposed to feel sympathy for him now? He spent most of the series run sabotaging Bates, lying to make himself look better, stealing from his employers and didn't he try to shoot himself to get out of the army?

 

Now we're supposed to feel bad because no one at Downton likes him?

 

Thomas didn't try, he did purposefully allow himself to get shot so that he could leave the army. He held up a lighter with his left hand over the trench and let it get shot (picking his left hand deliberately so that he would be able to return to his career in service). If you look closely you can still see the flesh-colored glove on his left hand to cover the wound. The whole thing was pretty rich, considering that he originally got himself drafted in the medical corp when he felt a war coming on so that he could avoid the front line and then got sent into battle anyway as a field medic (I think he was hoping to be stationed at a hospital).

 

But yeah, my sympathy for him only runs so deep. I feel bad when people mistreat him for his sexuality (the butler interviewing him called him dainty or something like that, which was awful) but no matter how gay he is, he's also a raging douchebag. I think most of the servants downstairs are long past caring about his sexuality and just dislike him because he's an awful person. I wish Anna and Baxter would stop wasting their time being so nice to him.

 

I think with the little girl who plays Marigold, they're just looking for a kid who will sit still and not be chatty. She's too young to give lines to (they'd also have to pay her/her parents more if they did) so if she seems a little checked out, that's whatever. Easier for the cast and crew to deal with. The boys who play George are pretty sedate too, but they're also older and can take stage directions better.

 

As soon as Marigold went missing I was really hoping they wouldn't go the predictable route of having Mrs. Drewe take her. I wanted Mr. Drewe to get home and find his wife cleaning up the kitchen or something, telling him it was just too difficult to see Marigold with Lady Edith and so she wanted to go home. Maybe she'd laugh at him thinking that she would go so far as to take Marigold, saying something along the lines of how she's not like Lady Edith, just as someone from the Downton household found Marigold wandering around by another stall. I just hate that after all Edith put her through, Mrs. Drewe was the one that had to get thrown under the Bus of Crazy* in order to give Edith a "win."

 

*Not to be confused with the Bus of Justice.

[blackwing]

I'm baffled over the Thomas stuff. Are we supposed to feel sympathy for him now? He spent most of the series run sabotaging Bates, lying to make himself look better, stealing from his employers and didn't he try to shoot himself to get out of the army?

 

Now we're supposed to feel bad because no one at Downton likes him?

I fully agree.  This man has pretty much been nothing but a despicable ass for most of the series.  He's usually trying to blackmail someone to discredit them and advance his own position.  He tried blackmailing Baxter last season, and failed.  I find it amazing that she even talks to him and is nice to him.  Now he feels threatened by Andy and treats Andy like crap.  Carson has pretty much always disliked Thomas, and it shows.  Now we are supposed to feel sympathy for Thomas?  Never going to happen at least as far as I am concerned.  

 

From a TV perspective, I get why the actor is still here, but from a character perspective, I don't get why Thomas didn't leave long ago.  The head butler hates him, everyone else pretty much dislikes him.  He could get a good reference from Grantham and go elsewhere, although given his personality, the same issues would probably happen all over again.  So is it just that he is stuck and that his lot in life isn't really going to improve no matter where he goes?

 

I'm not sure how much waiters or bartenders at fancy clubs in London made in relation to being a servant at Downton.  They wouldn't get room and board included, but I think Thomas would be a lot happier away from the insular nature of the downstairs environment.

[Constantinople]

Robert's not dead yet so as the Earl, and Mary's father, that he gets the last word on any tenants. If I remember the terms of the will/endless idiocy over the Swire money - Matthew owned half the estate, not a majority holding, therefore Mary now has half the estate, not a majority holding.

 

If she was just an estate agent, Robert wouldn't have to consult her at all because she'd be an employee. Personally I am curious if she is really all that committed to it.

 

That right.

 

In addition, it's Robert who has so far been worried about the tenants whose family has kept the farms in generations. Mr Drewe's father hadn't paid the rent for a long time, so when he died, his son Mr Drewe was about to lose the farm, until Robert - against Mary and Tom's opinion - decided that he could keep it and even loaned him money to pay what his father owned him.

If I understand correctly, Mary and Tom consulted with Robert about the management of the estate, a practice that Mary continues, but Robert refuses to return the courtesy. And thanks to Robert's generosity, Drewe is now indebted, with no means to repay, and homeless?

I'm not sure how that reflects well on Robert, although by treating his female co-owner with the same contempt as his male Irish Catholic former estate agent, it may absolve Robert of sexism and misogyny.

[Roseanna]

Edith can't feel sympathy for or empathy with Mrs. Drewe because Edith doesn't know what it is to love a child. She only wants Marigold because she wants Marigold to love her -- she's like those neglected teenage girls who used to populate all the trash talk shows in the 90s who would get pregnant on purpose so that they would have someone who loved them and belonged to them alone. Not that Edith got pregnant on purpose, but she never intended to raise Marigold until after she learned that Gregson wasn't coming back to her and she thought she'd be alone. People keep saying, "Edith is her mother," but she's not. Mrs. Drewe was her mother, and probably the woman in Switzerland was her mother. Edith was just the surrogate and now she's just the benefactress. She's no more a mother than she is a magazine publisher.

 

"Mother" is a legal term. Edith bore Marigold and put her own name in Marigold's birth certificate, so legally Edith is Marigold's mother so long she doesn't give up her rights.

 

In the same way, because Edith owns the Sketch, legally she is a magazine publisher.

[Ripley68]

Mary will not be happy that the Drewes have to move.

One of the reason Thomas dislikes Bates because He thinks bates turned him in for stealing the snuff box. I forget who did turn him in, but it wasn't bates, who actually refused to name anyone. He also didn't like that bates came in and took a job Thomas didn't think he would be capable of doing that Thomas badly wanted. Thomas didn't like the other job because the majority of the jobs to be done he saw as "beneath him". With Thomas it's all about status. He's always sneered down at "the chauffeur" even before he married Sybil.

O'brien kicked out bates cane, though Thomas smirked at her for doing it.

I want Mary's wardrobe from this episode; especially the dress she took Anna to the doctor in, and the fair ensemble.

[BetyBee]

I could not help but wonder if Lady Mary, or Michelle Dockery for that matter, was stepping in pig sh*t!  I'd have stayed on the other side of the pen in that gorgeous outfit.  I think the whole Mrs. Drewes storyline is not to demonstrate that either Mary or Edith is the most unfeeling bitch of the Abbey.  Rather I think the major SL is Mary coming to realize that she actually is "Aunty" to Marigold.  I'm surprised she hasn't figured it out already.  She balked at the very idea, though she is not unkind to Marigold.  What I also find astonishing is that Marigold looks like she could be the daughter of either Edith or Mrs. Drewes.  There is a resemblance.  Guess Fellowes recycles faces the same way he recycles stories!

[mightycrone]

Strangely, Robert and Cora seem more plugged in to the nuances of the events at DA than all the other characters put together.  I'm hoping that they will act on their insights.

 

The lame phone call from Edith's editor makes me realize just what a lost opportunity this plotline was.  Who wouldn't want an inside peek into the the world of journalism in this time and place, as opposed to say, the on-going yawnfest of Marigold.  Edith would surely have to face classism, sexism, and the very real struggle of being a working mother.  I wanted so much for this character, it makes me very sympathetic to fan-fic writers everywhere.

[Ina123]

Didn't Robert say or imply that he would see that the Drewes had somewhere to go and he would see that it was taken care of? I think all of this had to happen so they can offer the place to Mr. Mason.

As a woman working in a typically man's world (engineering), I can tell you without a doubt that the editor's problem is that Edith is a woman. She just needs to be strong and confident. Either he comes around or she replaces him.

I thought Mary and Anna remembering and sharing a laugh at the Pamuk mess was one of the sweetest scenes of the show.

[Roseanna]

Robert figured it out as well and told Cora but Cora told him not to tell Edith that he knew yet, so as far as Edith knows, Robert doesn't know.

 

Robert had health problems in CS and decided to tell Edith that he knows, so that it wouldn't be too late (in case he should die). Edith asked his forgiveness and Robert did the same.

[Roseanna]

Mary will not be happy that the Drewes have to move.

 

Mary has no personal relationship with Mr Drewe, unlike Robert.

 

Also generally Mary wants to take so much as land as possible directly to the manor, especially those farms that are inside the manor lands , and the Drewes farms is such.

[jumper sage]

Has anyone seen the PBS show Manor of Speaking?  I get 3 PBS channels and only one of them runs the show and it is at 3:00 am to boot.  The show is fantastic and there is much talk about each episode and a call from the other side of the pond (Yep, that's what they call it).  This week's call was a filmed bit by Julian Fellowes discussing his drawing on stories from his own family or other families close to him for the characters.  Fascinating!  Someone on the panel read a tweet about the comparison of the pigs on the show and Animal Farm.

[3 is enough]

 

The back of Mary's hair makes my scissor's fingers twitch.

Thank you!  It has been driving me absolutely nuts. Don't ever recall seeing a picture of a flapper with that cut.

[Crs97]

I am almost positive Thomas knocked down Mr. Bates, but with O'Brien's complete approval. They were planning how to oust Bates from the house.

 

It was definitely O'Brien.

 

You are right; I found the scene and Bates is between O'Brien and Thomas in line when O'Brien kicks the cane and Thomas twists while Bates falls.  Then they smirk at each other.  Lovely pair.

[caligirl50]

In one of the specials, they show a book or a magazine with the haircut they gave Mary. The back detail was in the photos.

I liked it when Mary puts a bow in it.  She had it like that when the Sinderby's came to DA for dinner the first time. 

[izabella]

Anyway, I look forward to Bates and Anna raising their son Norman.

 

BWAHAHA! 

 

Incompetent cervix...the medical establishment sure has some judgmental names for reproductive issues.  Goes along with "lazy ovary,"  the malady that Miranda on Sex and the City had, which made no difference to her accidentally getting knocked up by her ex with only one testicle.

 

Edith is dead to me now.  I have never liked her attitude toward Mrs. Drewe, but now I find myself hoping that Edith does end up suffering by being publicly exposed for having an affair and bearing a married man's child. 

 

Mary, you dumbass, Among other reasons, Mrs. Hughes doesn't want her reception at Downton because who do you think is going to clean it, decorate it, prepare all the food, and SERVE at the reception?  Are you going to serve food and drinks yourself, Mary?  No, Downton staff would have to.  Is Mary that dumb?

Edited January 11, 2016 by izabella

[caligirl50]

JudyObscure - 

You posted this:

 

"Who was the doctor that everyone died under on the earlier episodes? I forget."

 

Not sure if the Harley Street doctor was the answer...."everyone died" is what is tripping me up.  Dr. Clarkson misdiagnosed Matthew's injury after the war and did not pay enough attention to Lavina Swire when she was ill with the Spanish flu (no one did, by the way). Sir Philip Tapsell was the doctor who misdiagnosed Sybil.  

[CloverTracey]

Cannot pay any attention to Edith, Mary, Marigold or Mrs. Drewe because I am completely fixated on Carson & Mrs. Hughes!  Somebody earlier posted my thoughts best by saying "Run Mrs. Hughes!".  Carson, you insufferable, pompous, overhearing toady.  Yes, Mrs. Hughes, listen to your inner voice, and it is speaking quite loudly to you:  if your fiancé won't listen to you before the ring goes on the finger, you can bet he won't after its on. Do not marry that twit.  It pains me to think you have caved and will proceed with a wedding against your wishes, and a marriage that won't really suit you.  

[Roseanna]

I don't know. It's not as though Anna is terminally ill, and her job doesn't come with health benefits. I doubt Walmart gives a fuck about their employees' fertility status. Mary helping Anna seemed less like an employer doing their duty with an employee and more like one friend helping out another, remembering all the times that same friend has helped her.

 

 

I think Mary owed to Anna for keeping her secrets and one can't deny that she is fiercely loyal to those few she likes. 

 

Mary and Anna have a close and friendly relationship, but it does not include voluntary, equality and freedom of speech that is typical of  friendship. F.ex. Anna didn't want to buy contraception and hide it in her home.

[caligirl50]

 

Robert figured it out as well and told Cora but Cora told him not to tell Edith that he knew yet, so as far as Edith knows, Robert doesn't know.

 

helenamonster - Robert spoke to Edith when they went to Brancaster Castle.  

[Almost 3000]

A big hip hip hooray for the end of the murdering Bateseses's storyline. It may have been in episode 1 but I watched them back to back so they're running together.

[Catherinewriter]

Re Edith: Whenever I get really angry at Edith, I remind myself that Edith is Fellowe's creation. She is only playing what he writes for her, and he has written her a wretched role, from the beginning - wretched. In the coming months and years, if I ever read of Fellowes dying in a suspicious accident, I'll know where to look. (Ditto Anna, Bates, and Mrs. Drewe, by the by). She should have left when Dan Stephens and Jessica Brown Findlay left, unless there was a contract in place. 

 

Another peeve (sorry). I know that today we're supposed to value all people, no matter what class, but really, at that time are we supposed to believe all the work to uncover the why of the death of a lowly valet. I mean, really. The policeman must have come out a half dozen or more times (and from London, right, not a hop, skip, and a jump). And I hate to say it, but what did happen to Mr. Green? There was a woman involved, but how?

 

Good stuff: Mrs. Hughes standing up for her right to plan her own goddamned wedding. Mrs. Baxter's continual affection for Thomas. Granny's putdown of Denker. Isobel's continual fight for what's right. I do wish she'd marry the doctor. 

 

God, I miss Tom. Will he every be back, does anyone know?

[JudyObscure]

JudyObscure - 

You posted this:

 

"Who was the doctor that everyone died under on the earlier episodes? I forget."

 

Not sure if the Harley Street doctor was the answer...."everyone died" is what is tripping me up.  Dr. Clarkson misdiagnosed Matthew's injury after the war and did not pay enough attention to Lavina Swire when she was ill with the Spanish flu (no one did, by the way). Sir Philip Tapsell was the doctor who misdiagnosed Sybil.

Actually, I quoted the question, I didn't post it. Someone else asked it and I made a stab at answering it. Yes, Sir Philip Tapsell misdiagnosed Sybil. That's who I meant by some Sir Muckity Muck.

I don't agree that Dr. Clarkson misdiagnosed Matthew. He knew that there was a very, very slight chance that he could walk again but didn't tell him that because he thought it would raise false hopes. I'm not sure I agree with the his decision, but I wouldn't call it a misdiagnosis. During the Spanish Flu epidemic Dr. Clarkson had an entire village full of sick people, I wouldn't expect him to hang over any one bedside.

[Driad]

The pigs have furry ears! Does anyone know what breed they are?

 

If I were Anna, I would not want Mary to sit in on my conversation with the gynecologist. Difficult to say NO to Mary though, especially since Mary was paying for the consultation.

 

What is the exam Daisy is preparing for? Since she started working at age 12, might it be equivalent to completing grade school? (About 8th grade in the US, which was considered an adequate education for many people at the time.)

[caligirl50]

JudyObscure - I wrote what I did as it was what said in the show.  Robert said Dr. Clarkson failed with Matthew and Lavina and brought in the other doctor as a safeguard.

Regarding Lavina and not having enough attention when she was ill, Dr. Clarkson did not make her a priority and no one was sitting with her the way O'Brien was with Cora. When Lavina got up and caught Matthew and Mary kissing, did anyone give Lavina the cinnamon and milk as Clarkson asked (he was talking to a group and not one person so...)?  He said the disease has "sudden, savage changes."  Again, I'm just going off of what was shown on the show.

[roomtorome]

I doubt many people could ever have been raised in such a repressed environment, needing to conform to absurd standard of behaviors (as though they aren't actual human beings) and putting on a show for the world - I have no questions whatsoever as to why Mary and Edith are both the sort of individuals they are.  

 

Edith's actions/atitude strike me as someone who is truly desperate to be with her child (and still can't even tell the world she is her daughter) and is also, at the same time behaving as many in her position would towards people in a lower station - Her callous desperation to keep her daughter and to maintain the secret (and to be who she is as a person) must be a huge challenge for someone like her.  

 

I can't judge her based on the world of 2015 - I think people in the lower echelons of society back then at least at more opportunity to just be themselves (not always, but more so) than people in the Grantham's level - 

 

My issue with the show and has been for years (I skipped last year altogether) is the sheer amount of redundancy in the writing.  Have we really needed this many scenes of Anna whimpering about her situation - between episode 1 and 2, I think there have been, what, 6 scenes or something where this has been a part of the scene?  That many scenes of Thomas and his cheerleader about exactly the same thing?  And, just how many times and ways does Carson need to hear from his bride to be why she doesn't want the wedding there?  That, to me, is lazy writing.  Pure and simple.  

 

Returned for the swan song only for MS - boy, what she made of this role - such a treat even if she just says "hello" - 

 

It seems the yellow brick road is being laid for Edith to assume some sort of leadership at her business and move to London with Marigold - and, given it is the swan song, probably they will throw in a love interest for her at last - one that doesn't die on her.  If I lived in that house in this day and age and had been bequeathed those possessions, I would have been on the first train to London and never looked back - but...

[Roseanna]

Regarding Lavina and not having enough attention when she was ill, Dr. Clarkson did not make her a priority and no one was sitting with her the way O'Brien was with Cora. When Lavina got up and caught Matthew and Mary kissing, did anyone give Lavina the cinnamon and milk as Clarkson asked (he was talking to a group and not one person so...)?  He said the disease has "sudden, savage changes."  Again, I'm just going off of what was shown on the show.

 

More people died of the Spanish (together in the world) flu than in WW1, so it's a wonder that in Downton only Lavinia died.

 

BTV, Robert doesn't know that Lavinia is "shown" to have died of broken heart , i.e. she lost her will to live, after seeing Matthew kiss Mary.

[marceline]

 

If I lived in that house in this day and age and had been bequeathed those possessions, I would have been on the first train to London and never looked back - but...

 

For real. I like Edith a lot more than a lot of people here but I don't understand what's so difficult. Grab the kid, pack your bags, and move in to that fabulous London apartment, Edie. 

[Llywela]

 Now he feels threatened by Andy and treats Andy like crap. 

I do kind of agree with your point in general about how badly Thomas has behaved over the years, but feel compelled to point out that at no point has Thomas ever felt threatened by Andy (Thomas is under-butler, Andy a lowly footman) or treated him badly. He befriended Andy when they were in London last year and helped to get him the job at Downton, and this season we've seen him continuing to be friendly to Andy - it's Andy who seems now to feel threatened by Thomas and is rebuffing any overtures of friendship.

[kassa]

With Thomas it's all about status. He's always sneered down at "the chauffeur" even before he married Sybil.

 

 

To be fair to Thomas, prior to the motorcar, chauffeurs were stablehands with skills (and in a house like this one, most likely the handsomest ones who looked good in livery).  They definitely would have been lower in the pecking order than a footman (or maybe equal, but because they were outdoors people, lesser-than).  When driving their people to another house, they ate with the outside help, not the downstairs crew.

 

Then cars came around and required skill to both drive and maintain/repair, and suddenly they grew in prestige.   I’m guessing they also had a hell of a lot more leisure time and independence. Sure they’d have to be ready to do some driving at a moment’s notice, but that’s not the same as running up three flights of stairs 5 times an hour for this or that, all the while pretending it's no bother at all and you're happy to do it.  

 

Come to think of it, if Thomas had any mechanical aptitude, being a chauffeur might have worked out quite well for him.  It’s rather solitary, so he’d alienate fewer people, and he’d get out and about more.

 

I cut Clarkson a break on Lavinia dying  and Robert one for judging him on it.  The Spanish flu was diabolical – people would seem to get better, people would celebrate that they showed signs of having broken through it, then they would just drop dead.  And the younger and healthier you were, the more likely it was that it would happen to you (because of the catastrophic way it attacked the immune system – young, healthy bodies had so much more power to destroy themselves.)  Mind you, we know that all NOW, but while it was unfolding, no matter how vigilant Clarkson was, “things can take a sudden change” was the best he had, and he would have been justified in thinking it applied more to Cora than Lavinia.

 

As for Robert judging him, I don’t know that he did so much at the time – but when it came to Sybil, given his worry about his beloved daughter and wanting the best for her, and wanting to believe that the brutality of a c-section was unnecessary, he went with his trusty posh doctor and grasped at reasons to not trust Clarkson.

Edited January 11, 2016 by kassa

[fishcakes]

I don't think any court would accept the defense that bringing a child to one's home isn't kidnapping.

 

It's in fact kind to say that Mrs Drewe has at least now mental problems, for otherwise she made a serious crime

 

Since you want to be technical about it, under UK law, what Mrs. Drewe did was not kidnapping. Kidnapping requires taking someone against her will, using force or fraud, without that person's consent, and without legal justification. Since no one knew Marigold was gone until she was happily ensconced in Mrs. Drewe's lap at home, I assume that three of those elements were not met (the exception being consent, since a child as young as Marigold is presumed to be unable to give consent). Rather, I'm sure Marigold went away happily with the woman she considers her mother.

 

For what it's worth, I think that's a badly crafted law, but what do I know. I've only been a lawyer in criminal practice for 18 years.

 

"Mother" is a legal term. Edith bore Marigold and put her own name in Marigold's birth certificate, so legally Edith is Marigold's mother so long she doesn't give up her rights.

 

"Mother" can be a legal term but it's not exclusively so. In any case, it hardly matters since Edith has never willingly disclosed that fact to anyone except for Mrs. Drewe when she was grabbing Marigold away from her. Everyone else who knows, knows because they figured it out and confronted her about it or were told by someone else. And since Edith refuses to acknowledge Marigold as her biological daughter we know that she's more worried about her own reputation than she is about her child's birthright not to be lied to about who she is.

[blackwing]

Another peeve (sorry). I know that today we're supposed to value all people, no matter what class, but really, at that time are we supposed to believe all the work to uncover the why of the death of a lowly valet. I mean, really. The policeman must have come out a half dozen or more times (and from London, right, not a hop, skip, and a jump). And I hate to say it, but what did happen to Mr. Green? There was a woman involved, but how?

I believe some woman came forward and admitted that she pushed Green into the street and he got hit by a car and died.  This admission thus exonerated Anna, who became the focus of the investigation after Bates was let off near the end of last season.  Which was a bit irritatingly convenient, because this storyline has consumed a lot of airtime, and all of a sudden we are to believe that some woman admitted to it after all these months.  I think it should have been enough last season after Moseley and Baxter travelled to find a witness who saw Bates in a pub that proved he couldn't have done it.  They should have ended the endless Green murder storyline right there.

Edited January 11, 2016 by blackwing

[RedHawk]

For real. I like Edith a lot more than a lot of people here but I don't understand what's so difficult. Grab the kid, pack your bags, and move in to that fabulous London apartment, Edie. 

I think Edith summed it up well when she talked to Rosamund. She doesn't know how to live on her own, with a child. Who has she seen do that? Yes, Aunt Rosamund lives on her own but she's in a townhouse or large flat with a few servants. (I assume she has a maid in addition to a cook.) She also does not have a small child. (Is Rosamund a widow? Does she have a child(ren) that we've never met? Does she live in Grantham House or a place of her own. I always forget. Would be interesting to know more about her youth.)

 

I suppose Edith's flat has a maid's room, but what about a cook? She's got no experience cooking for herself or being on her own or raising Marigold by herself (aside from the time they ran away to a London hotel). So add in a nanny as well. I'm sure Edith, who learned to drive, can learn to live as head of household in a swanky London flat, and quite happily, it's just that the idea of it -- in addition to figuring out how to run the magazine -- must be so overwhelming.

Edited January 11, 2016 by RedHawk

[nora1992]

Regarding the debacle with Mrs. Drewe: my sympathy lies with her children.  My compassion for her regarding the loss of Marigold is drowned out by her own total disregard for her children.  It is much less moving to see her moaning over Marigold while she forgets the fact that she has 3 of her own.  While no one was paying any attention to Marigold at the fair, how much attention was she paying to her own children?  None - she left them with a neighbor.  Her husband and children had to leave their home because her grief at the loss of a child that she didn't carry through pregnancy out-weighed the desire to provide for and protect the three remaining children.  Why are posters hating Edith for not paying attention to the Drewe children?  Mrs. Drewe didn't either!

 

Poorly written, but the biggest victims in the whole scenario are the three whose mother forgot all about them when it came to Marigold.

[RedHawk]

You see, things are beginning to go down the slippery slope now that there's no kitchen maid. Mrs. Patmore considering using bought horseradish! Perish the thought that she would not make it herself. Next it will be bought marmalade. Oh, the times they are a'changing.

[iMonrey]

When Edith first asked Mr. Drewe to take in Marigold, he confirmed that his wife would be happy to take a dozen children (or words to that effect). She apparently loves children so much she'd like to have a whole cricket team of them if she could. So I get that to her, Marigold was like having a new baby, and then losing that baby. But taking her like that strongly suggests she's cracked in the head. Not sure if we're meant to conclude she was loopy to begin with or that losing Marigold caused her to crack.

 

I'm just glad there's a possible end-game to Anna's pregnancy problems because I'm sick to death of her sobbing over not being able to give Mr. Bates children. After all she's been through it seems like a trivial thing to cry over. I know, I know, she feels she's let him down and perhaps herself too, but still. She just beat a murder rap, and so did her husband. Priorities, lady. Quit running off and crying every five minutes.

[BananaRama]

Does Mrs. Drewes know that Edith is Marigold's mother? The reason I ask is because if Mrs. Drewe knows that Edith is Marigold's mother then she would back off. Right now, Mrs. Drewes sees Edith as some spoiled rich lady who took her child away to play "Mommy". Does Marigold stay at the Abbey while Edith is in London working?

[jrlr]

Poorly written, but the biggest victims in the whole scenario are the three whose mother forgot all about them when it came to Marigold.

Despite the fact that Marigold is being raised in an upper-class home, I still consider her the only real victim here.  At least the Drewe children have a loving father as a parent.  Marigold really has nobody: her mother can't/won't acknowledge her so she's basically nowhere in society and always will be.  I wish Edith had more spine and would take Marigold to London (even if Edith lied and told Marigold she was adopted by Edith, at least the child would have someone to call mother) and then hire an editor who isn't hostile and could help her learn the publishing business.  Edith has enough money to have a maid, a cook and a nanny in London, and she could hang around with the like-minded Bloomsbury group, many of whom came from upper-class families but rejected their upbringings (except the money part) and lived very bohemian lives.  

 

Mary, jeeesh!  Even as preoccupied as she is with herself and the estate, I'm sorry, I don't buy for ONE MINUTE that she wouldn't have figured out that Marigold is Edith's child.  You'd have to be blind and thick as a brick to not figure it out!   I'm drooling over her clothes, however.

[Roseanna]

Does Mrs. Drewes know that Edith is Marigold's mother? The reason I ask is because if Mrs. Drewe knows that Edith is Marigold's mother then she would back off. Right now, Mrs. Drewes sees Edith as some spoiled rich lady who took her child away to play "Mommy". Does Marigold stay at the Abbey while Edith is in London working?

 

Originally Mrs Drewes didn't know, but when Edith came after Gregson's death to fetch Marigold, she showed the birth certificate.

 

Marigolds stays in Downton's nursery when Edith is in London. After all, she as well as Sybbie and George are tended by a nanny.

[Avaleigh]

I find it kind of hilarious that Mary alone hasn't guessed, when literally everyone else in the Abbey knows. Her coat at the pig judging thing was spectacular.

Isobel is a very sharp and intelligent woman and she has no idea that Marigold is Edith's. Carson doesn't know, Anna and Mrs. Hughes are both privy to information that Mary doesn't have. I agree that Mary should have figured it out by now but she certainly isn't the only character who hasn't put it together. 

 

Oh goody, the return of the divisive Edith - Mrs. Drewe situation.

I'm rewatching season 5 and literally just saw the episode where Mrs. drewe accused Edith of snatching Marigold when Edith was actually in Mrs. drewe's own garden! so if anyone should understand panic over a child going missing, she should. I don't getnwhy people see Edith as being selfish and give Mrs. drewe a complete pass. She kidnapped the child. She said not one word to anyone. If she really beliveed what she was saying surely shed at least have told her husband. She was so insane I half thought the baby was going to be dead in her arms.

I don't think anyone is saying that Mrs. Drewe should get a complete pass. The frustration comes from Edith's attitude over the whole thing. She's been completely insensitive to Mrs. Drewe's feelings all along and this was well before the kidnapping. Edith mowed over this woman's feelings repeatedly, used the entire family for her own selfish reasons because she feared having her reputation damaged, and never seemed to accept that treated the Drewes badly. That's what rankles. 

[Roseanna]

Since you want to be technical about it, under UK law, what Mrs. Drewe did was not kidnapping. Kidnapping requires taking someone against her will, using force or fraud, without that person's consent, and without legal justification. Since no one knew Marigold was gone until she was happily ensconced in Mrs. Drewe's lap at home, I assume that three of those elements were not met (the exception being consent, since a child as young as Marigold is presumed to be unable to give consent). Rather, I'm sure Marigold went away happily with the woman she considers her mother.

 

For what it's worth, I think that's a badly crafted law, but what do I know. I've only been a lawyer in criminal practice for 18 years.

 

Nice to hear that if I visited Britain, i could take a child without her parents' consent if only she, knowing me goes willingly.

[JudyObscure]

I think the reason Lady Mary never sees the clues that Edith is Marigold's mother, is that Mary couldn't possibly picture Edith attracting a man enough to get pregnant by him.  In Mary's mind Edith is her plain, dull sister who the men always ignored when Mary was around .  Oh yes, certainly,  Edith managed to almost drag one of her own cast offs to the alter, but he was quite past a sexual relationship and there was that work friend of hers -- Grayson was it? That was surely only ever a romance in poor Edith's imagination.  While Mary herself is a passionate, femme fatale, pitting competing suitors against one another in a variety of amusing ways, Edith will always be a poor spinster wallflower.  Quite droll actually.