Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[Jynnan tonnix]

I don't have faith but for those who do, I have a question. What good is it to come to faith because that's all you know? In other words, shouldn't faith bea decision after you explore alternatives. Blind faith isn't faith at all. Am I off base?

I was chatting with a woman in my neighborhood a few years back (different place than we live now)...very sweet, cultured and well-educated. Somehow the topic of religion came up, and her answer to my non-belief surprised me.

She told me that her faith had always been unshakably strong, and that she couldn't imagine life without it, but thought my questioning attitude, and the conclusions I'd come to as a result were actually quite admirable.

 

"I've never felt any need to question my faith", she said, "but I suppose if I had, I might have been a much more well-rounded person"

 

I found that a really refreshing answer from someone as steeped in her faith as she was.

[mbutterfly]

Ok, that's a weird concept to me, government issued ID is not an ID card or passport necessarily then....that wouldn't fly here. Germany has a proper ID card which is valid across Europe and a normal passport as well. You would not get on board of anything with a driver's licence or similar. We like our bureaucracy here;-)

 

Re faith - I was going to say that faith that has never been tried isn't worth much but then I got thinking. Maybe it could be said that your faith is that big that you never doubted....

But then I'm Catholic and we are fairly big on believing that trials and tribulations are part of believing and life, unlike some of the protestant beliefs, who seem to think that favourtism is a sure sign to being God's favourite. That I find very hard to fathom indeed

I was surprised to read above that someone boarded a plane without even a driver's license. I think the difference between the U.S. and much of Europe is that we so infrequently (most of us) cross foreign borders. Before 9-11 we easily went to Canada and Mexico without a passport. A very large number of Americans don't have passports. I was spending some time in the UK a few years ago and a minister used her passport in her children's story during worship. Most of the children had them also. It would be quite different with children here. 

[kassygreene]

I was chatting with a woman in my neighborhood a few years back (different place than we live now)...very sweet, cultured and well-educated. Somehow the topic of religion came up, and her answer to my non-belief surprised me.

She told me that her faith had always been unshakably strong, and that she couldn't imagine life without it, but thought my questioning attitude, and the conclusions I'd come to as a result were actually quite admirable.

 

"I've never felt any need to question my faith", she said, "but I suppose if I had, I might have been a much more well-rounded person"

 

I found that a really refreshing answer from someone as steeped in her faith as she was.

 

Wow.  I hope you stayed in touch with her.  People like that are keepers.

[kassygreene]

I was surprised to read above that someone boarded a plane without even a driver's license. I think the difference between the U.S. and much of Europe is that we so infrequently (most of us) cross foreign borders. Before 9-11 we easily went to Canada and Mexico without a passport. A very large number of Americans don't have passports. I was spending some time in the UK a few years ago and a minister used her passport in her children's story during worship. Most of the children had them also. It would be quite different with children here. 

Our "national id" - which I believe is still not legally our national id - is the social security number.  It's the only number we get issued that isn't easily or casually changed.  But a social security card, which is just a small bit of stiff paper about the size of and of slightly lesser quality than old-style calling cards, isn't a good proof of identity as it has no picture, no biometric, nothing.  In fact you don't apply in person, you (or your parent since nowadays you can get it at birth) fill out a form and send it in.

[Mrsjumbo]

And no one carries a social security card around for fear of identity theft.

That sounds like my grandmother too. Grew up in the country (in a big family) & moved to the city when she married. My mother's father died when she was a teen, forcing my grandmother into the work force. She later remarried & lived to 105 yrs old.

Higgins - good point about the only choice the Duggars girls have is to marry & have children. Too bad one of them can't switch it up by having children & then marry. Don't think that's in the Gothard manual.

A Duggar having children out of wedlock would be a disaster. With no education or skills they would have to live off of the government at the taxpayer's expense.

[lookeyloo]

Imagine if one of the Duggar kids was a closeted gay, and they showed up without warning with their partner to the Duggar compound door, hi mom and dad I'm gay and this is my partner, I would love to see what happens.

That would be something to see!  When my son came out, we said, "Okay.  Do you still want meatloaf for supper?"  My guess is that an entirely different response would spew forth from the Duggar compound.  And I wonder if TLC were there, would the big hand of Jim Bob come over the camera, and would that be shown?  Something to ponder!!!

[Micks Picks]

Regarding faith, the dad of one of my boarding school friends had no faith but still sent his girl to Catholic boarding school, only partly to get rid of her.  He said he wished he believed and he had studied, but faith was not a gift he got.  Interesting.

 

A couple of years ago after someone looked at my license a couple of times, I still had it in my hand when I was putting my bag and shoes on the scanner.  I saw the drivers license fall onto to the scanner as it underwent scanning and it never came out.  Got stuck in the mechanism.  I was panicked.  No TSA person was interested.  They said oh well if it is found it will go to the sheriff.   So I got telephone numbers and knew I'd never get it back, but would have to go to the DMV for a duplicate before I came back, which I  did.  The duplicate is only a paper thing with no ID photo or anything, but they let me on board.  By the way, who were all these people who were so determined that we needed a TSA after 911?  I knew the only difference would be bossier people with an attitude and that's what we got.

[Fuzzysox]

Imagine if one of the Duggar kids was a closeted gay, and they showed up without warning with their partner to the Duggar compound door, hi mom and dad I'm gay and this is my partner, I would love to see what happens.

It's bound to happen. I would hope that their child would be an adult when/if she/he comes out and there is not one thing Boob or MEchelle can do about it. I could imagine the "child" cutting themselves off from their parents. Why suffer anymore abuse by those a$$wholes!

[SoSueMe]

Imagine if one of the Duggar kids was a closeted gay, and they showed up without warning with their partner to the Duggar compound door, hi mom and dad I'm gay and this is my partner, I would love to see what happens.

I would (selfishly) love to see that too, but on second thoughts, I am envisioning some very hurtful stuff being aimed at said kid and that would be sad.

[Mrsjumbo]

The best bet would be for the kid coming out to do it in some other medium, say tmz so that the Duggar machine doesn't bury the child's lifestyle.

Absolutely. If they can edit out the fact that Jana was babysitting for Smugger, you can be sure JB would be editing that out.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Can you imagine if a Duggar child wanted to convert to a different religion? Say...Paganism? Although that's a very broad spectrum of religions, it would be interesting to see Jim Bob and Michelle's reaction. I've had a feeling that one of the older girls would be drawn to an Earth based religion for awhile... if said girl was raised in a normal environment and actually allowed to choose their belief system.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[wanderwoman]

A little update since two of you sent messages.

I'm okay. I was hospitalized for a few weeks over the holidays and internet was spotty. The baby us still in there and cooking. We had a preterm labor scare and now I'm flat on my back for a while. Bed rest is the worst but I will gladly do it for the next six weeks if it know and a viable baby.

I have been thinking about Josie and "jubilee" Duggar and her prematurity, obviously, with this situation. I had some serious guilt issues over the loss of twin A, a few weeks ago, and how I hadn't been able to do something as simple as have a baby without drama. But, as bad as it was, I knew that the loss I've been mourning was a lack of potential and my own expectations. The fetus we lost was male and I feel kind of guilty about the fact that we didn't even think to name him or bury him with any fanfare. Am I wrong on this one? Am I going to be a crap mother because I didn't have those feelings?

In more relevant news, I saw the Bates show. I think I like it better than 19kac.

[Readalot]

A little update since two of you sent messages.

I'm okay. I was hospitalized for a few weeks over the holidays and internet was spotty. The baby us still in there and cooking. We had a preterm labor scare and now I'm flat on my back for a while. Bed rest is the worst but I will gladly do it for the next six weeks if it know and a viable baby.

I have been thinking about Josie and "jubilee" Duggar and her prematurity, obviously, with this situation. I had some serious guilt issues over the loss of twin A, a few weeks ago, and how I hadn't been able to do something as simple as have a baby without drama. But, as bad as it was, I knew that the loss I've been mourning was a lack of potential and my own expectations. The fetus we lost was male and I feel kind of guilty about the fact that we didn't even think to name him or bury him with any fanfare. Am I wrong on this one? Am I going to be a crap mother because I didn't have those feelings?

In more relevant news, I saw the Bates show. I think I like it better than 19kac.

((((hugs))) to you sweetie. The right way to feel is however you feel. You are a great mother and will continue to be once your Lil one is born. ( I lost twins at the beginning of my 2nd trimester. I was all over the place but you feel whatever way you need to in order to cope).

[GEML]

Wander - I also had a fairly late miscarriage and never felt the way most women talk about it. I honestly don't feel that I lost a baby, but that a pregnancy ended. It's been over ten years, and I don't think about the child missing from our family or anything like that. And I also had pregnancies that were difficult - first with preeclampsia and the second on bed rest for what would have been two months but my daughter came a month early. Both children are thriving today and my family feels full and busy. I know what I have, not dwelling on what I don't.

Just saying this to let you know there is no one way to feel. How YOU feel is what is best for YOU.

Hang in there. We all eagerly await your baby coming at the time right for him? Her?

Edited January 5, 2015 by GEML

[maraleia]

Hey Brian I know you didn't mean it in a bad way but just an FYI being LGBT isn't a lifestyle. We (I'm a lesbian) just live lives just like straight people do.

One more thing tonight. Please keep all prayer closet jokes in this thread. I'll be deleting any prayer closet references in other threads from this moment forward. Now carry on!!!

[Skittl1321]

wanderwoman- I'm glad you are doing okay and hope that bed rest is successful and you deliver a healthy baby.

 

I'm very sorry for your loss, but I don't think your reaction to it is any indication you will be a crap mother. Everyone grieves in their own way.

[Jellybeans]

Your reaction is not abnormal. Everyone grieves their own way. You will not be a crappy mother.

take it easy, post when you can and I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

[Barb23]

Wanderwoman - Hang in there. You're still in my prayers.

[amitville]

Wanderwoman  my prays are with you and your family and little one  

Edited January 5, 2015 by amitville

[Higgins]

Hey Brian I know you didn't mean it in a bad way but just an FYI being LGBT isn't a lifestyle. We (I'm a lesbian) just live lives just like straight people do.

One more thing tonight. Please keep all prayer closet jokes in this thread. I'll be deleting any prayer closet references in other threads from this moment forward. Now carry on!!!

I have a question, I agree that for most people, sexual attraction is immutable however; Is it not true that for some sexual attraction and response exists on a spectrum? I'm not sure that is the correct term but maybe a longitudinal or quadrant even and that even if it is a choice for some that should be considered a valid choice?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Higgins

[Jynnan tonnix]

I have a question, I agree that for most people, sexual attraction is immutable however; Is it not true that for some sexual attraction and response exists on a spectrum? I'm not sure that is the correct term but maybe a longitudinal or quadrant even and that even if it is a choice for some that should be considered a valid choice?

I personally feel that it is a sort of continuum and that a lot of people are capable of finding themselves further toward the other side than they think they would simply because identifying as heterosexual is so much more the norm, and easier, that for most people who fall firmly into the heterosexual zone of the continuum, the occasional twinge of homosexual attraction is simply ignored or laughed off. If it is a stronger urge, as in people who might fall in the bisexual zone, those same feelings might still be successfully buried as long as they are happy dating and/or marrying a person of the opposite sex. For others, they may experiment or may actively fight those feelings. It may be a choice to some extent for them, but if they are equally attracted to both males and females, it's still not a choice as to who they actually end up falling in love with.

[Higgins]

I personally feel that it is a sort of continuum and that a lot of people are capable of finding themselves further toward the other side than they think they would simply because identifying as heterosexual is so much more the norm, and easier, that for most people who fall firmly into the heterosexual zone of the continuum, the occasional twinge of homosexual attraction is simply ignored or laughed off. If it is a stronger urge, as in people who might fall in the bisexual zone, those same feelings might still be successfully buried as long as they are happy dating and/or marrying a person of the opposite sex. For others, they may experiment or may actively fight those feelings. It may be a choice to some extent for them, but if they are equally attracted to both males and females, it's still not a choice as to who they actually end up falling in love with.

That's interesting because I see all love as a choice.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Higgins

[maraleia]

That's interesting because I see all love as a choice.

Of course we do choose whom we love because of many factors, however, one's sexual orientation isn't a choice nor is their gender identity. For example, I was born with female parts and have always identified as a female (gender identity) and I am only attracted to women (sexual orientation).

Of late, there has been discussion and studies done that place most people on the bisexual part of the Kinsey scale, however, most people shove that aside and exclusively date/marry someone of the opposite gender because it's easier than being true to yourself.

Two examples of bisexual famous people are Anna Paquin who married her True Blood co-star Stephen Moyer and Evan Rachel Wood who just divorced Jaime Bell but is rumored to be in a relationship with a woman now.

[Fuzzysox]

What do you guys think of the new TLC show My Husband Is Not Gay and will TFDW be on it?

 

Will the Duggars say anything about this show being on TLC or keep their mouths shut because TLC is keeping the food on the table?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[Higgins]

My meaning of love is a choice is a little different. I don't mean we chose to fall in love. I mean after that feeling in love thing which is attraction has subsided. Lasting love is a choice.

[mbutterfly]

That would be something to see!  When my son came out, we said, "Okay.  Do you still want meatloaf for supper?"  My guess is that an entirely different response would spew forth from the Duggar compound.  And I wonder if TLC were there, would the big hand of Jim Bob come over the camera, and would that be shown?  Something to ponder!!!

And I'm wondering whether Michelle and Jim Bob have (purposely to begin with) stayed so out of touch with such realities about their children that they would genuinely be surprised unlike almost every other parent in the world when a child makes such a revelation. If they have, they may have many difficult come-to-reality experiences. 

[SoSueMe]

Wanderwoman, I am so sorry for your loss. Hard to understand nature sometimes, please don't beat yourself up, I'm sure you are a wonderful mom.Please take care of yourself and rest up, much better days ahead. ((()))

[ginger90]

Good thoughts going out to you, Wanderwoman !

[Barb23]

While watching *horrors * Dirty Dancing tonite (highly recommend the movie to the Duggars) there was a commercial for EPT pregnancy tests, the ones where you can test a week sooner than the others. Considering how many they use, EPT should have the Duggar ladies endorse the tests. Can't you just picture the group of MEchelle, Anna, Jill & Jessa sitting in a mountain of pee test sticks spouting how great they are ?(the tests, not them, ha ha ) Another business venture for Boob Enterprises.

[dillpickles]

I had a godly rebuttal for brians heathen comment but unfortunately I didn't pray enough, so I forgot it.

[superguard9]

Came across this line while reading a short story tonight

 

If I didn't know better, the guy was asking me out on a date, but who asks anyone to go to church with them on a first date? We're Catholics, not the Duggars.

[wanderwoman]

Thank you for the support last night. I was in a mood and it just spilled over here since my friends were busy.

So, today I got to see Baby B on the ultrasound and I'm far enough along to confirm, with great certainty, that it's a girl! Funny part was, we had convinced ourselves it was , a boy due to something said a while back. Now we're playing the name game and my husband innocently asked if we should stick with a letter theme since we both have first names starting with A. I told him I wasn't a Duggar. Lol.

As for the EPTs and the Duggars, I was asking one of the specialists how accurate some o f those bulk tests were and she said that you can order the doctors office strips for practically nothing online. You don't even need a prescription. They would be accurate to an HCG level of 15-20mIU. That's usually your level about seven days post conception. So, it's probable that the Duggars test even before a missed period. I can't imagine that being emotionally healthy. It also makes me wonder how many times a "miscarriage" was simply a false positive, read to early.

Edited January 6, 2015 by wanderwoman

[Absolom]

There are very few true false positives in a healthy woman I've been told.  Although I can't see it being emotionally healthy to compulsively test even before a missed period each and every cycle.  That has to mess with your outlook.  

[mbutterfly]

I was actually stunned when I learned Jill had taken two pregnancy tests before she tested positive on what, like her 3rd week of marriage. I just can't. Wouldn't it be more Godly to wait until God sends you a sign. Because God surely does send a sign in a timely fashion. 

[bigskygirl]

Remember practice make progress, and progress makes babies.

[Barb23]

Thank you for the support last night. I was in a mood and it just spilled over here since my friends were busy.

So, today I got to see Baby B on the ultrasound and I'm far enough along to confirm, with great certainty, that it's a girl! Funny part was, we had convinced ourselves it was , a boy due to something said a while back. Now we're playing the name game and my husband innocently asked if we should stick with a letter theme since we both have first names starting with A. I told him I wasn't a Duggar. Lol.

As for the EPTs and the Duggars, I was asking one of the specialists how accurate some o f those bulk tests were and she said that you can order the doctors office strips for practically nothing online. You don't even need a prescription. They would be accurate to an HCG level of 15-20mIU. That's usually your level about seven days post conception. So, it's probable that the Duggars test even before a missed period. I can't imagine that being emotionally healthy. It also makes me wonder how many times a "miscarriage" was simply a false positive, read to early.

Congrats on your girl news! When you asked your Dr about the bulk pregnancy tests, did you mention it was for Duggar research? When I worked in an OB/gyn office, MEchelle was the topic of conversation a lot, including both the staff & patients asking the Drs. questions. Our nurse practitioner was so funny about it - her favorite line (referring to MEchelle) "I'm surprised her uterus & bladder aren't falling out of her after having all those kids!"

[DangerousMinds]

Maybe they are falling out.

[Skittl1321]

I don't think there are many true false positives, but I think these girls wouldn't know about many of their miscarriages if they didn't test so early.

Also the frequency with which they test makes me think they don't understand how the tests work.

[Micks Picks]

They test like that because they have a one track mind.  They don't know anything else, so obsess on pregnancy instead of read the paper.

[GEML]

I also think they test like that because their cycles are hard to track. Even Michelle has been mostly pregnant or nursing more often than not. It's just simpler to test than it is to track your period any other way - the costs are negligible if you buy the tests in bulk, which they obviously do.

[Absolom]

It's a thing among a subgroup of trying to conceive people.  Many baby boards are full of women obsessing about testing.  Since quiverful adherents are usually either pregnant or trying to get that way, it's easy for them to fall into the testing beginning six or seven days after presumed ovulation trap.  

[kalamac]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I wonder if the constant testing is because, if they believe sex is for procreation, do they have sex then wait to do it again until after they've had enough time to do a pregnancy test. If it's positive, no more sex until after the baby is born, if it's negative, they try again. - I've heard this is what Rose Kennedy used to do, although she didn't have the luxury of home testing, so probably had longer wait times. (And while I'm generally of the opinion that cheating on your spouse is a shitty thing to do, if it's true, no wonder Joe was stepping out.)

[Almost 3000]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I wonder if the constant testing is because, if they believe sex is for procreation, do they have sex then wait to do it again until after they've had enough time to do a pregnancy test. If it's positive, no more sex until after the baby is born, if it's negative, they try again. - I've heard this is what Rose Kennedy used to do, although she didn't have the luxury of home testing, so probably had longer wait times. (And while I'm generally of the opinion that cheating on your spouse is a shitty thing to do, if it's true, no wonder Joe was stepping out.)

Maybe in some groups but in this one Gothard believes in lots of married sex and wives must be available to their husbands except for specific times after giving birth.

[Fuzzysox]

I must confess that I'm hanging out in the Vanderplum Rules forum because sinners have more fun! Not too much going on with the Duggars lately.

[bigskygirl]

Joe Kennedy would have cheated on his wife even if she was putting out on a daily basis. I have no use for this man after I read the real story about what happen with his one daughter. The poor woman was suffering from severe depression and was in emotional and physical pain. He was not able to control her, so he took her in for a lobotomy. She ended up "simple minded." I guess she was easier to control and kept the family reputation from being ruined after the operation.

 

In some ways, he reminds me of Jim Bob. He is in denial when it comes to his own wife's obsession with pregnancy to the point where his own children suffers. What would happen if one of his own daughters ended up with severe depression. Send her off to camp and pray she will be okay.

[BitterApple]

Joe Kennedy would have cheated on his wife even if she was putting out on a daily basis. I have not use for this man after I read the real story about what happen with his one daughter. The poor woman was suffering from severe depression and was in emotional and physical pain. He was not able to control her, so he took her in for a lobotomy. She ended up "simple minded." I guess she was easier to control and kept the family reputation from being ruin after the operation.

And the even shittier thing was he had it done without Rose's knowledge or consent.

 

I was watching that documentary on Lifetime about the Warren Jeffs cult and they interviewed several women who escaped. They all told of how they were required to smile and act happy all the time, even if they didn't feel that way. One woman even used the phrase "keep sweet." Sounds kind of familiar. Personally I think Jana has been depressed for quite some time and the apparent solution has been to ship her off to Journey retreats until she falls back in line.

Edited January 7, 2015 by BitterApple

[GEML]

Not to defend Joe Kennedy (who wasn't a terribly nice person) I will admit that I've spent a lot of time studying the history of mental health, and the lobotomy as a procedure was really thought to be a hopeful one at the time. Not the utterly destroying and dehumanizing one that we know it to be today. It is possible that the doctors at the time honestly felt she would be helped by the procedure. I realize that it's nearly impossible for us to look back on it and imagine how that could possibly be the case, but it was, at the time thought to be humane. The original creator was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine, if you can believe it.

[Mrsjumbo]

I agree, GEML. Along with electric shock treatment, which was pretty widespread.

[Sew Sumi]

Rosemary's lobotomy was also "botched." Today, Joe would have forgotten why he wanted to have the procedure done. He would have sued the doctor for malpractice. As for Rosemary, she was pretty "wild" (a word Joe used). He feared she was going to sleep with various and sundry men; she was already born learning-disabled, according to Eunice who was fairly close to her in age, and they really had no clue how to deal with her once she hit puberty. Rosemary was shut away in a convent where she lived until she died about 10 years ago. 

 

What were we talking about again? :D

[bigskygirl]

On the subject of Jill and Derick and his job.

 

I worked in retail for nine years. I saw married couples, couples dating, and family members work at the same store. Most of the time it was okay,  other times it would drive a few of us crazy. I saw women coming in and checking up on their husbands. I saw husbands taking phone calls while they were suppose to be working or taking a longer lunch or break to visit with their wives. One woman actually had the idea a few of women at work were after her husband. They both work at the same store at one time, and she got upset because someone ask her to go back to work instead of following her husband around.

 

I knew one couple where the wife ran shotgun over the husband almost 24/7. She would call him at work to make sure he was there, and she thought other people were trying to break them up. My one sister-in-law does the same thing with her husband. He was meeting women on the internet, and one of them came to their door one day. I do not excuse his behavior, but I can understand why he was a little tempted because of the way she treats him.

 

Jill seems a little too clingy. I can understand having lunch once in a while, but she seems to be pushing it. Let poor Derick breathe. I wonder if she has some concerns he might be tempted by some little hussy at work. I am sure the rumor mill has been push into overdrive with these two. I cannot imagine the stress he might be under with a seriously ill mother, an immature, clingy, giggly pregnant wife at home and famewhores for in-laws. Is he letting her do this because he loves her or not to rock the boat.