Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[Wellfleet]

It also doesn't matter if Jim Bob has oodles of money if he's never passed it along to his children as he should. They could still be living off of their own salaries. We have Derick saying he has no student loan debt, but we honestly don't know if this is true. They are most likely paying for his MDiv, and perhaps some credits for Jill to get up to speed. I'd like to think the PEOPLE money went directly to them, but the family is so weird, no one could say for sure.

 

Agree. Although I certainly wouldn't say it's out of his skill set, I cannot imagine how Boob would be able to justify the People magazine $$ going anywhere but to Jill and Derick directly. There have been numerous occasions, photos etc where it was strictly Jerick in People.  Nary a sign of Boob, Mechelle and the rest of the circus. It would be very interesting to know whether or not Jerick pays Boob anything per month for that ginormous house.

[msblossom]

GEML, our ways of lean living sound similar. I packed a lunch daily for us and made dinner most nights with the occasional dinner out for a treat (mostly consisted of DQ or very rarely Outback). And we had the one car too until DH's Dad gave us his gently used Oldsmobile.

Yeah, it's debatable if Jill sees receives any of that TLC $. My guess is that if she does, it's not an equal division of money.

[BitterApple]

Here's another thought: I wonder if Derick offered to get another car for Jill and she said no, because it would give her an excuse to see him several times during his workday. After all this is a woman who has never seen a man work a traditional 9 to 5 job; she probably thinks they don't get to spend enough time together.

Edited January 15, 2015 by BitterApple

[Barb23]

Agree. Although I certainly wouldn't say it's out of his skill set, I cannot imagine how Boob would be able to justify the People magazine $$ going anywhere but to Jill and Derick directly. There have been numerous occasions, photos etc where it was strictly Jerick in People. Nary a sign of Boob, Mechelle and the rest of the circus. It would be very interesting to know whether or not Jerick pays Boob anything per month for that ginormous house.

I agree & don't think Jerick or Benessa pays rent. Unlike the 3 month engagement of Jerick & Benessa, my husband & I were engaged for a year & half & able to save for the down payment on a townhouse with NO help from anyone. We both lived at home with our middle class parents (with minimal rent) so we were able to save. Our jobs/salaries weren't great either. I had a clerical position with a high school education & my husband was a drug store manager who had just graduated from college (with no college debt, thanks to his parents saving/preparing for wisely.) We were 22& 24 when we married. Both our cars were paid off. We had credit cards but the balances were (& still are) paid off each month. We were also able to furnish our house nicely with no gift registries. Yes we had wedding gifts ($$ included) but at that time in 1984 a nice gift was a casserole dish or a picture to hang on the wall, not electronics, huge amounts of bedding & whatever else was on Jerick's & Benessa's gift registries.

I'm sure Jill is clueless how the real world works because of her upbringing. Like we have said, she wasn't (& probably still isn't used to) Derick going to a 9-5 job because Boob didn't have a set job like that. I'm sure the Duggar kids don't have individual bank accounts like the rest of us have set up for our kids when they start with an after school job so they can get their OWN experience of spending & saving. Like the rest of you, I would love to know how they are all paid by TLC.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Barb23

[Joe Jitsu913]

Just a fun tidbit I learned today: I have a co-worker who attended Crown College and has extended family members in that area. His relative ran into Joseph Duggar and Nathaniel Bates yesterday. They invited her over for dinner, I'm assuming at the Batses. Anywho, she was completely star struck.

[BitterApple]

Yes we had wedding gifts ($$ included) but at that time in 1984 a nice gift was a casserole dish or a picture to hang on the wall, not electronics, huge amounts of bedding & whatever else was on Jerick's & Benessa's gift registries.

I was recently talking with my mother about how ridiculous wedding registries have become. She got married in the early 70's and said back then shower and wedding gifts were things like sets of Tupperware, mixing bowls and dish towels, not $400 blenders and $1,000 laptops. It was just the basics to help a young couple get started, not a grab-all to furnish their entire house.

Edited January 15, 2015 by BitterApple

[Absolom]

Shockingly enough, there are still some people whose registries look like that.  They are for a few house ware items and possibly some dishes and flatware.  

[mbutterfly]

From GEML
Actually, as many as half of all churches in the United States may close in the next fifty years if current trends don't turn around. It's not so much that people don't identity as Christian (although that is falling, but not by 50%) but because people no longer are attending churches. GenXers were the first generation to bail in massive numbers, but this was hidden by baby boomers bringing their children. However, most churches are losing three out of four people ages 30 and younger.

And yes, it's happening in Jewish and Muslim communities as well.

Google things such as "church closing" and "loss of youth" and you'll find plenty of articles in mainstream press down to internal publications such as CHRISTIANITY TODAY.

Of course, I came from the Rust Belt and probably 3/4 of the churches I knew growing up are shuttered simply because of lack of population. And now even booming areas are having troubling when looking down the road long term.

 

i surely agree with your information. Here is my thought. My parents left the church before I was born though both were church-reared and my mother briefly studied theology at DePauw U. So much of our western culture is Christian faith-based, so much of our finest literature as well. I had the experience of knowing none of that until I was well into adulthood. Happily even before I became a Christian I did study classic philosophy and majored in American literature. That was about it though. Adults with early church experience have a sense of how and when to pray, have something of a start of a Judeo-Christian ethos, have the sense of our connectedness through one Creator. I fear a generation or two removed from these life experiences will leave a very empty child. I wonder what others think. 

[Higgins]

I think people can find meaning in humanity, literature, art and science without a belief in transcendence.

[msblossom]

My husband's confirmed bachelor cousin in his 40's got married last May. We didn't attend the wedding due to the 10 hour drive (besides only seeing him once 17 years ago). However, we did send them a gift on their registry and I was hard-pressed to find something reasonably priced that hadn't already been purchased. I ended up finding 2 tumbler sets for about $75 including shipping and gift wrap (considering everything on his registry, it was a bargain!) He has yet to send us a thank you. I really have a hard time with people putting high ticket items on their registry, esp someone in their 40's who makes a very good living.

[MJDai]

Mbutterfly that's an interesting point of view. I've been raised atheist/agnostic and am still agnostic. I wonder at the sense of connectedness through one Creator you feel. It seems to me that must be a wonderful feeling. What makes me wonder about it is the many many variants of religion that exist. Is there still that feeling when y'all disagree on the how/why/when/who?

I do feel that the waning of religion is part of the reason why therapy is on the rise. Having no clear set of rules makes finding right and wrong harder. Having no weekly congregating community makes loneliness easier.

On the other hand, when a person does a good deed because they know they're going to get judged at the end can never me truly philantropic. That is not to say agnostics/atheist are always philantropic when doing good, I myself quite enjoy babysitting for various neighbours free of charge because I like people thanking me and thinking well of me, also I like hanging out with the kids as playing in the mud as an adult is frowned upon ;)

 

I hope that without religion we will still feel a connectedness. Not to a Creator, but to Life.

 

As for the emptyness of the lives of children. I think that has more to do with the modern focus on the having of stuff i.s.o. more worthwile pursuits than the lack of religion.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I consider myself spiritual, not religious and I'm happier that way. I was force fed religion as a child and young adult. I wanted to think for myself. I've had spiritual experiences without organized religion and I'm naturally drawn to Paganism. I think if I had children, I wouldn't want them to go to church unless it was a special occasion like someone's wedding or funeral. I wouldn't want to force religion on them.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[mbutterfly]

I think people can find meaning in humanity, literature, art and science without a belief in transcendence.

That was certainly my parents' theory. I was very purposely immersed in culture. It fell short. And I fear many children are not immersed in humanity, literature, art and science either. 

[mbutterfly]

Mbutterfly that's an interesting point of view. I've been raised atheist/agnostic and am still agnostic. I wonder at the sense of connectedness through one Creator you feel. It seems to me that must be a wonderful feeling. What makes me wonder about it is the many many variants of religion that exist. Is there still that feeling when y'all disagree on the how/why/when/who?

I do feel that the waning of religion is part of the reason why therapy is on the rise. Having no clear set of rules makes finding right and wrong harder. Having no weekly congregating community makes loneliness easier.

On the other hand, when a person does a good deed because they know they're going to get judged at the end can never me truly philantropic. That is not to say agnostics/atheist are always philantropic when doing good, I myself quite enjoy babysitting for various neighbours free of charge because I like people thanking me and thinking well of me, also I like hanging out with the kids as playing in the mud as an adult is frowned upon ;)

 

I hope that without religion we will still feel a connectedness. Not to a Creator, but to Life.

 

As for the emptyness of the lives of children. I think that has more to do with the modern focus on the having of stuff i.s.o. more worthwile pursuits than the lack of religion.

I don't disagree with a word you have said. Many members of my family have found the Unitarian-Universalist Association of Congregations to be the best for them. In this community they are able to study together, sing together, be comforted and challenged together as a congregation and be in social mission in their community. For me, I would need at least this and want it for my children. As it happens, I find myself to be a Christian believer (albeit the Christian left). 

[Barb23]

I'm just throwing this out there as another possible reason why people are leaving the church or aren't attending & being involved as much. I was seriously thinking about changing churches when our minister started each service commenting about the people who weren't there and not focusing on who was there. A reminder here and there about the congregation dwindling & maybe bringing a friend with you is fine, but hearing it every week was really getting to me & others. Luckily he has changed his ways. I have heard the grape vine some families who had been long time members have left our church for various reasons but mainly due to the minister. I know there is a shortage of clergy in all religions. Our church used to get a new minister every 4-5 years but now it is much longer due to the shortage. It is the same in my mother-in-law's church (different religion). Hopefully the families that leave find a new church but I'm sure there are some who say Why bother, I'm just not going anymore.

[Mrsjumbo]

I've seen predictions that the Hispanic population will triple by 2050. I wonder if this will affect church populstions. Just generally, aren't most Hispanics catholic? Even if they are leaving Catholicism, it should be an increase in other religious attendance too.

[BitterApple]

I've seen predictions that the Hispanic population will triple by 2050. I wonder if this will affect church populstions. Just generally, aren't most Hispanics catholic? Even if they are leaving Catholicism, it should be an increase in other religious attendance too.

I live in Vegas and there's a large Hispanic Catholic church up the street from me. The parking lot is always packed for weekend services, and even during the week for various church events. I'm not sure what attendance is like in other areas of the country though.

[kalamac]

I have an aunt who is religious, but stopped going to church, because she decided she'd be better off reading whatever bible passages she chose every week, and interpreting them the way she felt god was leading her too, rather than have one person tell everyone what he thought they should be thinking on that week, and what it should mean to them.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if more people felt that way.

[Jellybeans]

I have mentioned this before, that I lost my 34 year old daughter 5 years ago. I found the "most religious" people to be the most offensive. It would take a miracle to get me back in church.

I do believe in something...the entire universe is so wonderful and mysterious. I think whatever we find on the other side cannot be explained.

In the meantime if people say "God needed another angel...." I always say well, offer up one of YOUR children to God since he seems to need so many damn angels.

Of course I sound like a bitch and I am not.

[3girlsforus]

Oh Jellybeans.... not only am I so sorry that you lost your daughter, but I am so sorry that you had to deal with people who thought 'God needed another angel' was the right thing to say. I will not pretend to know the right words to say to someone when they are faced with such a devastating loss but everyone should know that's just cruel. 

[Higgins]

I get annoyed when people say that God saved them from an illness or an accident. It seems so egotistical. Why didn't god save the toddler from torture, rape and murder? How about the child who didn't "fight" and win their battle with cancer?

[floridamom]

Jellybeans: There are no words to console someone in your experience, there just aren't. Please accept my condolences. You know, we just don't know why things happen or "don't" happen to us or those we know or love. Whatever that Power is out there, we will only know when WE, ourselves encounter It; after this life in whatever form or experience that is.

I hope that you handle this situation in the way that it best works for you...like I said, there are no words. From one mother to another.

P.S., you're no "bitch".

[GEML]

Many Latinos are becoming Charismatic or Pentecostal - which is a more effusive way of expressive service than is traditional. There is an emphasis on the Holy Spirit, and on gifts of the spirit, including speaking in tongues, healing and prophesy. There are some CharismaticCatholic churches growing to meet this desire, and some are leaving their Catholic faith and creating independent churches that are often fascinating hybrids.

It is true those churches are growing, but that is because their numbers are growing due to immigration and high birth rates. If you look at African American churches, though, you see the same fall off as in white churches.

Edited January 16, 2015 by GEML

[bigskygirl]

I remembered people telling me my husband's illness was something God thought I could handle, and God did this for a reason. Seriously.... I wanted to slap people for saying it. I do believe in guardian angels and spirits helping someone, but I do give the amazing medical team and my husband's donor the credit for him being alive today. He did say his dad (died from colon cancer in June 1992) was speaking to him after his diagnosis and was telling him to get in there and fight his illness with everything he has.

[GEML]

Oh, I hate that. Anyone who has lived with a loved one with serious mental illness or suffered one learns first hand that these bumper sticker slogans are meaningless.

That said, I will say that my faith had taken me through some pretty dark times. But nothing that could be summed up in a few sentences.

Edited January 16, 2015 by GEML

[Jellybeans]

My southern Baptist aunt informed me I would not see my daughter in heaven. I asked why...she said "because you two did not have the same religion". Really?!?

I don't know what that has to do with anything but that kind of BS from religious people stops me in my tracks for a few days.

[amitville]

I have mentioned this before, that I lost my 34 year old daughter 5 years ago. I found the "most religious" people to be the most offensive. It would take a miracle to get me back in church.

I do believe in something...the entire universe is so wonderful and mysterious. I think whatever we find on the other side cannot be explained.

In the meantime if people say "God needed another angel...." I always say well, offer up one of YOUR children to God since he seems to need so many damn angels.

Of course I sound like a bitch and I am not.

My heartfelt condolences on the loss of your daughter. I would like to add you are not a bitch , i myself hate that saying  and would never ever say it to anyone 

Edited January 16, 2015 by amitville

[Jellybeans]

Thank you. I DO go off on people who say things like "I understand, I lost my cat" so it can make me feel like a bitch.

Ok, back to prayer talk. :-)

[bigskygirl]

Some people have the sensitivity of a dirty dish rag that has been sitting in dirty water for a few days.

[Barb23]

Jellybeans-I'm offering my condolences too. Besides what you have told us, I also saw this topic discussed on a talk show once & it is unbelievable what people say.

[riverblue22]

I believe in God but I don't believe in a personal God who watches over us and intercedes in our lives.  I don't believe God favors sports teams, or politicians, or certain religions over others.  If he did intercede he wouldn't allow the torture and death of innocent people.  And there are a million other examples of good people who suffer.  I grew to realize this when my friend died at the age of 40 from lung cancer, when she had never once smoked a cigarette.  On top of that she was a P.K. (preacher's kid) and spent her time doing good works with lonely, elderly people. She was a very, very good person, and everyone said that God needed another angel.  Well, those elderly people (and her family) needed her more.  And the only answer from the religious is that God works in mysterious ways.

 

If someone thinks religion A makes sense while B-Z don't, someone else believes in religion B and feels that religion A doesn't make sense.  It's a draw. There is no way to know which is right.

[BitterApple]

Even tho it's not real, I'm still sticking with my opinion that the newly married Duggar/Dillard/Seewald couples experienced some of the "issues" portrayed in the article. Somehow I could picture Jilly more in a high necked long sleeved cotton nightgown rather than a slinky Victoria's Secret number for her wedding night. But then again the Dillards figured things out quickly since she got pregnant right away.

 

I could totally see Jill in one of those frumpy Dorothy Zbornak-style nightgowns.

[mbutterfly]

It breaks my heart to read about jellybeans and others having to suffer such inconsiderate statements. I guess my feeling is that people of faith are probably no better and no worse than others in their inability to talk about human grief and tragedy. Sadly you can be born again and still be as dumb as a doorknob. I lead a monthly grief support group associated with my church. Though I have been remarried for nearly 20 years, my first husband died young and suddenly actually at the time I was attending seminary. We do sometimes discuss the very awkward remarks people make and -- together -- can actually laugh about it. Most people mean well. They just haven't experienced enough to know what to say. 

[Wellfleet]

It breaks my heart to read about jellybeans and others having to suffer such inconsiderate statements. I guess my feeling is that people of faith are probably no better and no worse than others in their inability to talk about human grief and tragedy. Sadly you can be born again and still be as dumb as a doorknob. I lead a monthly grief support group associated with my church. Though I have been remarried for nearly 20 years, my first husband died young and suddenly actually at the time I was attending seminary. We do sometimes discuss the very awkward remarks people make and -- together -- can actually laugh about it. Most people mean well. They just haven't experienced enough to know what to say. 

 

I completely agree with mbutterfly's post here. In my younger days, I've been guilty of saying some of these warmly-intended but insensitive remarks myself. I now know they were not helpful, but realized this only after having experience with life and specifically, grief, myself. I've learned that it's best not to try to "solve" the bereaved person's grief - Time will heal your wound...  He's out of his pain now... That kind of thing. And that in the end the best things to hear are usually the simplest.  I'm so sorry, I'm here to listen if you ever want to talk, Please accept my deepest sympathy, We're thinking of you... etc.

 

Also I do find it helpful to remember that people do not INTEND the hurt they're causing. They simply don't know "the other side" of their marks. I can't blame them for something they don't know - it would be like punishing a five-year old for calling his fat aunt fat - and for me, that is a mitigating factor.

[Jellybeans]

The best thing I heard was from my neuro. mHe took my hands and said, "you have my compassion". Simple.

[Micks Picks]

I've had a doctor hold my hands, twice actually, years apart.  right away you think this is bad news, he's touching me.  It was bad but both times the person lived after all.  The 1st time was heart attack, and when I saw the person, I also saw the vent was unplugged.  I pointed out he was choking.  They said no.  I said yes plug him in.  They did, and after transfer to another hospital, he came back.  The second time it was a diagnosis of only a few days to live with cancer in lungs, here, there, and everyplace.  I said gee it looks like congestive heart failure to me.  So I got the long lecture about how the dr was both a surgeon and an oncologist.  OK, fine, but actually it was congestive heart failure, not cancer.  They removed some fluid, that is another hospital did, and he was better too.  I also got a bum diagnosis from a veterinarian last year who diagnosed cancer but it was not.  What is does is prevent you getting the proper diagnosis and treatment.  That's a real piss off.  When someone dies I tell survivors I'm so sorry, which I am.  Deeply sorry.  But I don't know how they feel.  I don't try to give platitudes.  I don't like it when somebody does it to me.  I remember being told Oh, he's better off, not in pain.  Really?  Maybe if there was no fire he wouldn't have been burned.  Then he'd be better off.  Oh well I guess people try, but should learn to be brief and heartfelt.

[Mrsjumbo]

having a child with autism, someone commented on how my SIL never could have the patience for that, so God gives special children to people that can handle it. So if I was a B like SIL I wouldn't have a child with special needs? If I had less patience, was a meaner person I would have had a "normal" child? You just deal with what you are given, I don't have any special abilities.

[Micks Picks]

I've heard people say stuff like that, MrsJumbo, and you have my sympathies.  They are empty-headed and have no idea what they are really talking about.

[bigskygirl]

I was tempted on telling my in-laws God must have thought I could handle being around idiotic, nasty, inconsiderate, rude, obnoxious people who only think of themselves when it comes to their son and brother's life threatening illness. God must have sent me a message to tell them to get their heads out of their you know what, and I do not give a fig newton about their feelings since they have treated my husband like crap. And I guess my Graves Disease (hyperthyroidism) must have happen because I was a bitch to them instead of the extra stress of trying to handle things so my husband could get better because we could not depend on them for support.

[Micks Picks]

God didn't tell my insufferable in laws to go hell, I did.  No way did I want them around when my husband's youngest sister died.  The older sister and her family hadn't talked to her for years.  I said Hell No.  When my husband was sick for so long before he died, he didn't want the inspection tour so they were told to stay away.  That's all it is, to see for themselves what he is like.  Tough luck, you should try harder when people are alive and able to do things, not at the end.  

Has Brian left the prayer closet?  Haven't seen him in quite a while.

[Mrsjumbo]

Maybe he got sent to ALERT.

[Fuzzysox]

When my friend that I grew up with son passed away from being hit by a drunk driver all I said was I have no words. I cried and cried along with her brothers while Rosa I think was in pure shock and was asking her son while in the casket if he wanted anything. It was very surreal as he was only 22 and about to graduate out of college. I have never been to a wake were they couldn't keep up with how many people showed up to pay respects. I still get choked up about it and today I found a picture of Anthony as I was cleaning. Ok I can't talk about this anymore.

[trimthatfat]

I get annoyed when people say that God saved them from an illness or an accident. It seems so egotistical. Why didn't god save the toddler from torture, rape and murder? How about the child who didn't "fight" and win their battle with cancer?

Very well said.

[bigskygirl]

I woke up early this morning and could not go back to sleep. For some reason, I started to watch the 700 Club. I guess if a person is a Christian, prays to God, give their last few dollars to help others, and attends church, the person will be rewarded by God. I must be going about it the wrong way since I have not been rewarded. I could have a temp or full time permanent job, less eye damage due to a chronic medical condition, and not have to worry about paying my bills. I guess going into my prayer closet has not been the benefit I have been hoping for.

[Portia]

Ah, the 700 Club. It's like a car wreck--I'm horrified, but I can't look away. True story: a close friend of my family married Pat Robertson's granddaughter a couple of years ago. So when he's making the rounds at Christmas, our friend gets to hang out with the old guy who publicly blamed Katrina on the gays. I get short of breath just thinking about it.

[Barb23]

Taking a break from snarking

Glad to hear you're still around. As Mrs Jumbo commented, we were afraid you were at ALERT :)

[mbutterfly]

Ah, the 700 Club. It's like a car wreck--I'm horrified, but I can't look away. True story: a close friend of my family married Pat Robertson's granddaughter a couple of years ago. So when he's making the rounds at Christmas, our friend gets to hang out with the old guy who publicly blamed Katrina on the gays. I get short of breath just thinking about it.

In all fairness, a lot of people spend time at Christmas with wacky old grandpas. lol

[Portia]

In all fairness, a lot of people spend time at Christmas with wacky old grandpas. lol

Haha, excellent point! My dad was good as gold, but in his old age he could come up with some really "questionable" observations. Luckily, he wasn't on national TV!

[Almost 3000]

I noticed that 19 Kac is not currently on TLC, I thought it was on 52 weeks a year. I miss Howdy Doody and family telling me how to live my life.

You're so right! I've been missing them in the morning repeats. I usually have them on as background and it seemed like TLC was the Duggar Network ~ all Duggars all the time.

[Barb23]

I noticed that 19 Kac is not currently on TLC, I thought it was on 52 weeks a year. I miss Howdy Doody and family telling me how to live my life.

You're so right! I've been missing them in the morning repeats. I usually have them on as background and it seemed like TLC was the Duggar Network ~ all Duggars all the time.

I still have THE most famous wedding of 2014 - The Dillards on my DVR, so if anyone wants to stop by......

I'm actually embarrassed to say I have played it many times to use as background noise. I'm sure we'll be exposed to many episodes leading up to THE PREMIER. I do wish they would show some of the older episodes instead of the past season or two,which we all have memorized by now.