S06.E09: The Hill

[memememe76]

I love Baby Jack. Him walking with his walking stick was so heartwarming. And such a good actor! Kate was singing with a lyric about taking 12 steps to the sidewalk and then turning left. He actually took 12 steps before saying left. So impressive! 

[mansfolly]

Is it possible it's a fake out, and this job opening is in SF and not LA?

[mansonlamps]

Kate is my mother while looking like Rebecca instead of Kate.   She always put her mother's nuclear family ahead of ours.  Kate infuriates me, no one should start a family if they still think of themselves as a daughter/sister before a wife/mother.   And yes this is mean,  but women who weigh 400 lbs don't have handsome men waiting at their beck and call,  it's just not realistic. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by mansonlamps

[chocolatine]

I don't think it's terrible that Toby lined up a house for them to look at - not like Jack who had actually bought a house without telling Rebecca - but it was too soon, and he was definitely wrong with his ultimatum at the end. He should have made Kate's first time visiting him just about fun and connection, and brought up the conversation about a potential move at a later time. Ideally, he would have also researched schools for Jack and job opportunities for Kate to show that he cared about the entire family having an easy transition.

BTW, I love how in TV shows there are never any homeless people in SF, and of course we can't smell the terrible urine stench through the TV. If Kate had said she didn't want to live in SF because it's an overpriced shit-hole full of tech bros, and not because she didn't like "new Toby," I would have been 100% on her side.

Finally, was anyone else appalled that Jack and Rebecca paid zero attention to Randall at the pool? Even if your young child is a good swimmer, you're still supposed to keep an eye on them.

Edited March 23, 2022 by chocolatine

[bros402]

I am on Team Toby in this - yes, he should've mentioned the LA offer and discussed it with her, but they need his high salary (I am wondering if the apartment is paid for by the company? Since otherwise, how are they affording rent + mortgage?) to pay for what Jack needs. 

Kate should've discussed that there was an open position at the school with Toby before applying... but that salary isn't going to be a lot in California, all things considered - especially since it is a private school. 

The show was trying realllllly hard to make Toby look like he is in the wrong - but he is happy, when a few seasons ago he was incredibly depressed and stuck in bed because of it. It's also tech - from what I have heard people in tech like to switch jobs every couple of years to get higher salaries.

[ProudMary]

Two weeks in a row now, I've missed the first ten minutes or so of this Big Three arc. Can someone let me know how the teenaged Big Three got into the pool and why they now can't get out?

[CSunshine76]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I’ve never in my life gone to a party and talked about someone’s appearance out loud. Maybe they are used to seeing different types of people and were more interested in getting to know Kate rather than discussing her weight. Why would her weight be the business of anyone at the party anyway? 

THANK YOU.

[dmfordo]

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Kate to climb the fence after Randall?  Kevin could have helped her get her footing going up and Randall could have encouraged her going down the other side.  I'd have been annoyed, too, stuck all alone in the locked pool area by myself.  

[CSunshine76]

2 minutes ago, dmfordo said:

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Kate to climb the fence after Randall?  Kevin could have helped her get her footing going up and Randall could have encouraged her going down the other side.  I'd have been annoyed, too, stuck all alone in the locked pool area by myself.  

I agree, she could have easily climbed the fence. 

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, bros402 said:

from what I have heard people in tech like to switch jobs every couple of years to get higher salaries.

That's true. You can usually get a 15-20% increase in total comp by switching, whereas the annual merit increases are 3-5%. A lot of people in Seattle rotate between Amazon, Microsoft, Google, and Meta (FKA Facebook) every 2-3 years to keep their comp growing. The exception are people who were early-stage employees and are now making crazy money through RSUs or those who get promoted every year or two (a promotion raise is around 10-15%)

Edited March 23, 2022 by chocolatine

[LoveLeigh]

I find Kate insufferable. Toby has to perform for her as he talks to her about the day's plans, dance around her, and totally kuchel her along. She is overly sensitive, too indulged, too used to a therapeutic interaction... this comes from her mother. 

She has a job now she loves, she should cut Toby loose. Dr. Now would call him an "enabler" because he never addresses the elephant in the room, and takes her out to restaurants with limited food options.

Let's see how long her second husband jumps through hoops for her. If he walks on eggshells for the rest of his life, that marriage could last. Every little thing sets her off.

 

[CdrJanny]

57 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Finally, was anyone else appalled that Jack and Rebecca paid zero attention to Randall at the pool? Even if your young child is a good swimmer, you're still supposed to keep an eye on them.

That's a first: neither Jack nor Rebecca paying attention to Randall. 🤭

40 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Two weeks in a row now, I've missed the first ten minutes or so of this Big Three arc. Can someone let me know how the teenaged Big Three got into the pool and why they now can't get out?

I don't know that that was ever shown.  Last week, Kate and Randall were walking into the pool area while Kevin was sitting on the floor of the deep end.

Edited March 23, 2022 by CdrJanny

[pennben]

3 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

I used to think 'old Toby" was a jerk, but this new Suave Toby is like another character...

Honestly, I haven’t liked Toby from the get go. Been rooting for him to get off the screen since S1. I’ll only be disappointed at end if they get back together. Be gone all versions of him. This really has nothing to do about my feelings for Kate. Just never liked him from day 1. 

[Racj82]

Man, I sympathize with Toby so much.

I'm so tired of working at jobs where I'm undervalued. Just another cog in the wheel.

I've saved my superiors so much from their screwups. I take on a leadership role and help everyone out I can. Most people beg to not have to cover me when I'm off because my route (I'm a courier) sucks so bad.

I know I'm more valuable than my position but it's never seen. It's lso such a hard thing to find. To be valued. I understand Toby not wanting to give all that up.

They can have it all. Kate could be happy.

I just don't think she wants a life with Toby anymore.

[debraran]

Did they have to demonize Toby for a reason.? Except for real life stats, did they feel in some way, last year on show, let's make Toby all about himself, let's make them not communicate all and previously have a child and adopt one! Lets show Kate having 2 weddings, people love weddings (not)It was heavy handed and I know Chrissy helped write it, but they think "we need to lift Kate up more? She came off selfish is some ways but both of them don't talk and calls etc were "normal" for a lot of business, but they made it seem it was a choice. My niece left a job because of that aspect, calls/emails on weekends but it was a choice after talking to hubby to downsize salary and just breath. Toby loved it and it didn't take a lot of time but I felt they made him totally clueless and Kate acting like it had been years instead of months.

Many points Toby made were valid, she did love the mess he was, it made her feel better to be with " fat Toby" who needed her more and had more issues with weight, etc. Her imagining him was a good touch, but to me, overdone by the end. I mean when "old Toby : was trying on the jackets, I was "really??" I also felt Toby isn't stupid, and after having Jack so long, knew what was available free from government, organizations, my mom got many things just having late eye issues. Sure not like what he could buy, but they made him too narrow and does anyone mention, say her name or talk about the daughter? I realize Jack Jr is focus but I never got the reason for adopting back then.

I thought it was written better than Kevin's, more "real" in conversations, more about her, Kevin's was Cassidy,  but not deep enough for me to believe Toby would change that much that fast. I still see Philip as just available.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by debraran

[Jillybean]

A few years ago I'd never have thought I'd say this, but...#TeamToby. 

I knew they were doomed when the lock had KATBOY (I'm pretty sure) written on it instead of KATOBY.

 

 

[Lisa418722]

If the writers think this episode made me "I HATE TOBY.  I LOVE KATE” they are mistaken.   I'm more Team Toby than I was before.  Toby has had to give up a lot (time with his family) to be able to make money to support his family because (at the time) he couldn't find a job in LA.  Yes, he should have told Kate about the LA job offer, but it also depends on how much money he was going to make whether he should have taken the job or not.  It felt to me like Toby had actually looked into Jack's future talking about college and a Braille (I can't remember what it was, not a writer, but something). I think Kate feels like she would get a discount on the school and that's all that matters.  Kate, you were talking about Jack like he's never going to leave his neighborhood.   I feel like since the move Toby has grown and is moving ahead while Kate wants to keep everything the way it always has been (and I think she's always been that way). 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I'm pissed on Kate's behalf for that comment from Toby.

Yeah, he's used to not being with the kids. She's not. The first time you go away from your kids overnight is a big deal. (I'm going to assume that Rebecca, Miguel and Kevin are watching them.)

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:35 PM, nilyank said:

On 3/22/2022 at 10:32 PM, chitowngirl said:

Kate’s job might be part time and “middling”, but they get a discount on tuition at Jack’s school.

Toby was talking about the LA job.

Yes.

It also seems like at most, Jack attends a music class (once a week? with Kate?) not free preschool. Kate needed Rebecca to come with her to watch the kids while she taught a class. (I don't know who now watches them while Kate teaches, but she's hopefully more adept then the young babysitter who had only ever watched them when they were asleep.)

Edited March 24, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Haleth]

This is the first time in 5+ years I've felt some sympathy for Kate.  Not that Toby is wrong, but I can see where she's coming from.  They were both pretty damaged when they began the marriage and helped each other find happiness.  Unfortunately for both of them happiness doesn't mean being together anymore.  That's ok.  It happens.  People grow apart.  Neither of them is the bad guy.  Really, there is no bad guy here.  If they can be happier seeking their own separate paths, so be it.  The only bad thing is that Toby will not be a daily presence in his children's lives.  But forcing being together would make everyone miserable, including the kids.

The only time I cringed was when we found out Toby hadn't discussed the job offer in LA.  Ouch.  He knew it would be an argument so he hid it.  Not good, Toby.

Man, this family and their draaaaama.

5 hours ago, CSunshine76 said:

I agree, she could have easily climbed the fence. 

Then how would we know she's spent her life being afraid to risk things? 😄

 

[phalange]

If you see your spouse as an equal, you do not practically buy a house without telling them. Toby didn't even give Kate a hint that he was looking at houses, didn't show her a picture beforehand, nothing, just sprung the house on her. People condemn Jack for buying a house without telling Rebecca, so why is it okay when Toby does it? 

He also made their weekend all about his work. First by taking a work call immediately after sex (who does that?!) then by being on a work call while they were supposed to be enjoying a day out together and moreover, being angry that Kate was facetiming the kids. So he can be on a work call, but Kate can't talk to the children? And shouldn't he want to talk to them as well, considering, ya know, they're his kids too? "I'm mad at you for talking to our toddler children" is an...interesting hill to die on. Lastly, he just assumed, again without asking (I'm sensing a theme!) that Kate would want to spend her evening at a work event at his boss' place. 

Not telling her about the job offer was beyond shitty. Especially because their whole thing was that San Francisco would be temporary until he found a job in L.A. And now when he gets a job offer in L.A. he just turns it down without talking to Kate, much like how he accepted the SF job without talking to her. He could have apologized, but no, he instead doubled down by giving her an ultimatum. "You have to move here, there's no other option." Um, excuse me? I absolutely would've walked out too. 

[greekmom]

Not a fan of Kate's or Toby's but this was a good episode that showed how 1 partner can make such a life change (ie lose weight, get a better job, whatever) and it changes the dynamics of the marriage.

Honestly, I wanted to hear the numbers of the LA job vs the SF job.  I'm betting a cup of joe that the difference wasn't all that much and for Toby it's the prestige of being someone at the SF company for the first time.   Like Kate saw, this Toby dresses super spiffy in designer clothes, does marathons (or at least 5k runs) and works constantly.

If Toby wanted to impress Kate with SF he would not have shown her the house first but brought her to a super nice school for the blind that they could enroll Jack in as well as found a few music programs that Kate could apply as an assistant teacher there. 

I wonder how far in the future when they get the smoker (Jack has his accident), they break up and Kate takes up with Phillip.

Also, notice how in the future Toby is alone but we know that Kate has someone? 

Lastly, I miss the little flash forward future clips.  Hopefully we get one with Randall next week as to where he goes after this political stint.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I don't think it's terrible that Toby lined up a house for them to look at - not like Jack who had actually bought a house without telling Rebecca - but it was too soon, and he was definitely wrong with his ultimatum at the end. He should have made Kate's first time visiting him just about fun and connection, and brought up the conversation about a potential move at a later time. Ideally, he would have also researched schools for Jack and job opportunities for Kate to show that he cared about the entire family having an easy transition.

Agree with everything here. He should have enthusiastically talked about the great school for the blind nearby, the multiple music schools (with open job postings!), the parks, how Jack would love the streetcars, etc.

7 minutes ago, greekmom said:

If Toby wanted to impress Kate with SF he would not have shown her the house first but brought her to a super nice school for the blind that they could enroll Jack in as well as found a few music programs that Kate could apply as an assistant.

Exactly.

It was too much to expect Kate to agree to buy a house in 2 days no matter what research he has done, but he doesn't seem to have done any, because he is sure he is right.

It's sweet that he picked a house with a devoted space for Rebecca and Miguel, though.

Speaking of which, since Rebecca and Miguel still live locally, why didn't Kevin ask if he could occasionally stay by them when he has the twins on the weekend, so he wouldn't be sleeping in Toby's office when the latter was home? Surely Kevin can afford 2 extra travel cribs (and baby gear) and Rebecca would get more time with the twins. We know she has spent substantial time with Kate's kids, but we don't see her doing that with Kevin's.

Although really, he should be renting a 2 or 3 bedroom house or apartment near Madison.

Edited March 23, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[gameshowjunkie]

Gah this episode was so frustrating! Toby's weekend plan sounded amazing- I would have been all up for that. I thought his investigating housing prices and all that was reasonable so he could approach Kate with almost a fait accompli. His not telling Kate about the offer in LA was a dick move though.

I thought their argument about old Toby was really good. Kate talks about the goofiness and laughter but as he said it was all really a coping mechanism.

All the coworkers were very sweet and welcoming to Kate. And all the complaints about the work calls..I was totally on his side. He's making money for the kids' future and still managing to stay very involved. 

Agree that Jack is very young and would adapt. Does she think he will never leave that house? They both should have been researching schools for Jack and job opportunities for Kate before now. SF makes much more sense with Toby's line of work. Interesting that no one talks about remote work though. My son's in school out there and when we've taken CalTrain to SF recently it's been almost a ghost town with SO many people working from home. Maybe that's changing now though.

I wonder if the company is paying for the apartment? That's got to cost a fortune. Typically such arrangements are temporary but if they love Toby and have the cash, maybe they're footing the bill.

[Spartan Girl]

Look, we can argue about who was in the right and who was in the wrong til the cows come home. But I think most of us are siding with Toby because we know the writers are trying to play us. If any of the bs they’ve been feeding us about “nobody will be the bad guy, they’re just growing apart” was true, this episode wouldn’t have 1) portrayed as a workaholic or 2) had him not tell her about the LA offer without telling her. 

Clearly, Toby is getting thrown under the bus as the bad guy because God forbid any of the Pearsons be the bad guy. They’re always the special snowflakes and their significant others should just smile and enjoy the  ride. And it’s pretty obvious that they’re using this and the cooker fallout to justify Toby winding up alone and depressed while Kate gets another shiny happy wedding. It’s so transparent it’s pathetic.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, bros402 said:

The show was trying realllllly hard to make Toby look like he is in the wrong - but he is happy, when a few seasons ago he was incredibly depressed and stuck in bed because of it. It's also tech - from what I have heard people in tech like to switch jobs every couple of years to get higher salaries.

Toby was incredibly depressed because he decided to stop taking his meds.  He bounced back pretty quick once he restarted them.  That is the only time we have seen Toby depressed.  His speech tonight was either a retcon done by the writers or Toby manipulating Kate.  I also want to point out that Kate is a better person than I.  I would have reminded Toby about that.  Kate never went low in that fight, I can't say the same for Toby.

[Empress1]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That's true. You can usually get a 15-20% increase in total comp by switching, whereas the annual merit increases are 3-5%. A lot of people in Seattle rotate between Amazon, Microsoft, Google, and Meta (FKA Facebook) every 2-3 years to keep their comp growing. The exception are people who were early-stage employees and are now making crazy money through RSUs or those who get promoted every year or two (a promotion raise is around 10-15%)

Really, if the goal is to maximize compensation, most of us should change jobs, whether that’s an internal promotion or leaving for a new employer, every few years regardless of industry. If you’re only getting COL increases you’re losing spending power year over year, especially now with the rate of inflation as high as it is, because COL increases rarely keep up with the rate of inflation. The best way to get a sizable raise is to change jobs, in my experience.

52 minutes ago, gameshowjunkie said:

Agree that Jack is very young and would adapt. Does she think he will never leave that house?

Right - and we know he grows up to be a successful touring musician so he manages to travel just fine.

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Their conflict was one as old as time. The dad thinks he supports his family by fattening the bank account. The mom thinks its better to support the kids by just being there and making memories with them. It's not a dealbreaker, it's more like the entire plan of the patriarchy.

 

Until  very recently, for about 90 percent of the population,  the main plan of the patriarchy was to plow the north forty before it rains or else they wont get the potatoes in early enough and everyone will starve next winter.  The women were hoping the men didn't die doing dangerous work outside in all weathers or the only memories they would be making with the children would be watching them starve.

Now we've got women like Kate ruling through the new matriarchy.  She married Toby and had children while he supported the family and put her through college.  Now she's all set to kick him out, live where she wants to live, do her fun but low paying job, knowing she can always live in the house she likes, because Toby will be paying the mortgage and paying for all the kids major expenses  -- all the while taking it for granted that she will have custody of the children because she's the woman and the woman gets the kids.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Look, we can argue about who was in the right and who was in the wrong til the cows come home. But I think most of us are siding with Toby because we know the writers are trying to play us. If any of the bs they’ve been feeding us about “nobody will be the bad guy, they’re just growing apart” was true, this episode wouldn’t have 1) portrayed as a workaholic or 2) had him not tell her about the LA offer without telling her. 

Clearly, Toby is getting thrown under the bus as the bad guy because God forbid any of the Pearsons be the bad guy. They’re always the special snowflakes and their significant others should just smile and enjoy the  ride. And it’s pretty obvious that they’re using this and the cooker fallout to justify Toby winding up alone and depressed while Kate gets another shiny happy wedding. It’s so transparent it’s pathetic.

I agree with this 95%. The one part I don't agree is bolded. Most of the time, the Pearsons aren't the bad guy (unless it is Pearson vs Pearson where one has to be the bad guy) except they have no problem having Kevin be the bad guy. And occasionally Randall is the bad guy when he goes against Beth. But yes, for the most part, if you are a Pearson, you can do no wrong.

[CdrJanny]

Toby's not wrong about any of it.  I feel sorry for the dude, stuck with that self-entitled shrew.

Edited March 23, 2022 by CdrJanny

[zoey1996]

8 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Two weeks in a row now, I've missed the first ten minutes or so of this Big Three arc. Can someone let me know how the teenaged Big Three got into the pool and why they now can't get out?

They couldn't get out because the brick that held the gate open had been moved. I'm guessing that the gate was ajar, held by the brick, and that's how Kevin, and then Kate and Randall, got in.

[ams1001]

7 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Two weeks in a row now, I've missed the first ten minutes or so of this Big Three arc. Can someone let me know how the teenaged Big Three got into the pool and why they now can't get out?

7 hours ago, CdrJanny said:

That's a first: neither Jack nor Rebecca paying attention to Randall. 🤭

I don't know that that was ever shown.  Last week, Kate and Randall were walking into the pool area while Kevin was sitting on the floor of the deep end.

Kevin said something like "where's the brick" which was holding the gate open. I guess Kate and/or Randall moved it when they came in and let the gate close, which locked them in. (Though not clear on how Kevin got in in the first place, if the gate locked automatically, unless it was already open when he got there.)

7 hours ago, dmfordo said:

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Kate to climb the fence after Randall?  Kevin could have helped her get her footing going up and Randall could have encouraged her going down the other side.  I'd have been annoyed, too, stuck all alone in the locked pool area by myself.  

I thought the same thing. One of them could have stayed below in case she fell, and the other could have given a hand from the top. 

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Finally, was anyone else appalled that Jack and Rebecca paid zero attention to Randall at the pool? Even if your young child is a good swimmer, you're still supposed to keep an eye on them.

Yes! I tend to feel like Randall-focused episodes have been in too much abundance but I want to see next week just to find out where little Randall was all that time!

 

[cardigirl]

What surprised me (and maybe it shouldn't have) is that Kate and Toby have been living this life for only 3 months. That's twelve weeks, more or less, and doesn't seem like such a long time to fall apart. Of course, other problems were brewing, such as Toby's unhappiness at being unemployed and a stay-at-home dad, and Kate never knowing what it is she really wants. 😆 

I'm more on Toby's side than Kate's at this point, but I do understand how difficult it is to leave a life you love. I've moved numerous times because of my husband's employment, and each move was a wrench. It's stressful and takes a while to recover from. So I get that Kate is very hesitant to move to SF. It's like she has no power to hold on to what she wants, because Toby holds the cards of higher earning employment, is very happy and fulfilled, and they've built this family together. Her not being on board with Toby's trajectory will cause the downfall of the marriage. 

When Kate decided to climb that hill, she was deciding that her happiness was most important. She was leaving Toby at that point.  

[nexxie]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I can’t get behind Kate. Teen Kate is probably my least favorite. I try to have compassion, but man she’s such a awfulizer.  Everything is so awful and a personal affront to her.  She likes to disagree with your idea, just because it’s your idea.  If Toby misses that, then what’s wrong with him?  Why keep rubbing in Kevin’s failed marriage?  A teen would have known that. She would have had meltdown with such an insult.  Just an unpleasant character, imo.  It seems like her kids like her pretty well.  So, perhaps all is not lost.  

This. I don’t get the purpose of writing Kate this way - at some point someone should have expected her to get her shit together. That includes getting both emotions and body healthy (if not for herself, then for her kids) - they expected Kevin to stop drinking and get healthy, and Randall to deal with his panic attacks. Coddling Kate did not serve her well.

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

What surprised me (and maybe it shouldn't have) is that Kate and Toby have been living this life for only 3 months. That's twelve weeks, more or less, and doesn't seem like such a long time to fall apart. Of course, other problems were brewing, such as Toby's unhappiness at being unemployed and a stay-at-home dad, and Kate never knowing what it is she really wants. 😆 

I'm more on Toby's side than Kate's at this point, but I do understand how difficult it is to leave a life you love. I've moved numerous times because of my husband's employment, and each move was a wrench. It's stressful and takes a while to recover from. So I get that Kate is very hesitant to move to SF. It's like she has no power to hold on to what she wants, because Toby holds the cards of higher earning employment, is very happy and fulfilled, and they've built this family together. Her not being on board with Toby's trajectory will cause the downfall of the marriage. 

When Kate decided to climb that hill, she was deciding that her happiness was most important. She was leaving Toby at that point.  

The cracks were already there in Kate and Toby's marriage.  The move was that slight bit of pressure needed for it to finally break.  I did see Kate come to SF with an open mind, but Toby was not willing to meet her halfway.  Never once in his plan for the weekend did he take Kate and what she would have wanted into account.  His itinerary felt like love-bombing in a way that Jack's grand gestures never did.  And while Toby's coworkers seem friendly, I can see Kate wondering where she fits into his new life.  

Yeah, Kate decided her marriage was over during her walk.  Jack's memory of the Big Green Egg is not the inciting incident for his parent's divorce.  Kate is going to go back to LA and start to plan her new life without Toby.  

[Rammchick]

It seems like 3 months is a very short time for them to have grown apart, but really, that started when Toby lost the weight and Kate became even more insecure than she was before.  So this has really been building for a long time.  No one's fault.  Kate didn't even know what she wanted out of life before, all she knew was fear -- fear of the unknown, fear of people leaving her, fear of her body letting her down.  And now she's afraid to get lost in someone else's dream.  She does love Toby and she loves their family, but for the first time, she does know what she wants out of life.

Could they both live in SF together?  Could Kate find that same path there?  Maybe.  

[Jeddah]

I’ve pretty much hated both of these characters the entire show, so I’m not on any one’s side. Is there anything likeable about either of them? Has there ever been?

[marceline]

Here's where I just couldn't with Kate. She was basically telling Toby that she liked him better when he was more emotionally damaged. "Gee Toby you were so much more fun when you were depressed and deflecting from your own emotional pain." I like how Toby told her outright that the guy she wishes she was with would have jumped off a bridge by now (an interesting reference given the Golden Gate Bridge's role as a destination for suicidal people) then reminded her that he had a heart attack.

It's telling how Kate and Toby had completely different expectations for the weekend. He worked for weeks making plans and she knew nothing about them until he told her about them in the apartment? She he knew he was taking her to a work party because she was dressed for it. Did Toby tell her nothing else? Meanwhile Kate thought it would be just a lazy day of doing stuff and face-timing the kids. This is a perfect example of how these two obviously haven't been communicating for a long time. That fight had to happen. It was ugly but way overdue.

When Kate and Toby are leaving the cabin, they tell Randall and Kevin that they'll see them back in LA for "Mom and Mig's anniversary party." I suspect that's when Jack has his encounter with the grill. 

[Seelouis]

Again the only person I like in the Katoby family is little Jack. What a scene stealer! He reacts perfectly. Says “yay! The park!” And “hi daddy” right on cue. And I’m sure that’s just him reacting naturally as I don’t think they are expecting him to learn lines. He’s so cute! I hope he did actually get to go the park after the scene or he would be disappointed. 

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, marceline said:

Here's where I just couldn't with Kate. She was basically telling Toby that she liked him better when he was more emotionally damaged. "Gee Toby you were so much more fun when you were depressed and deflecting from your own emotional pain." I like how Toby told her outright that the guy she wishes she was with would have jumped off a bridge by now (an interesting reference given the Golden Gate Bridge's role as a destination for suicidal people) then reminded her that he had a heart attack.

 

I feel like Toby is manipulating Kate here with this line of thinking.  If Old Toby was suicidal, she had no idea.  He never communicated this with her.  If Toby's humor was just a deflection, again she had no idea and that means he just told her that the person she fell in love with was a lie.  To me, it feels like New Toby hates his old self, and the Kate that loves Old Toby has no place in his new life.  

 

16 minutes ago, Rammchick said:

It seems like 3 months is a very short time for them to have grown apart, but really, that started when Toby lost the weight and Kate became even more insecure than she was before.  So this has really been building for a long time.  No one's fault.  Kate didn't even know what she wanted out of life before, all she knew was fear -- fear of the unknown, fear of people leaving her, fear of her body letting her down.  And now she's afraid to get lost in someone else's dream.  She does love Toby and she loves their family, but for the first time, she does know what she wants out of life.

Could they both live in SF together?  Could Kate find that same path there?  Maybe.  

It wasn't Toby's weight loss but his emotional affair with his crossfit buddy Kara that started it.  

[BlancheDevoreaux]

Kate is not emotionally/mentally well. 

23 minutes ago, nexxie said:

This. I don’t get the purpose of writing Kate this way - at some point someone should have expected her to get her shit together. That includes getting both emotions and body healthy (if not for herself, then for her kids) - they expected Kevin to stop drinking and get healthy, and Randall to deal with his panic attacks. Coddling Kate did not serve her well.

This sums it up perfectly. I know the writers have had their hand somewhat forced when Chrissy didn't lose the weight she agreed to lose (I remember her doing an interview back early in season 1 where she said weight loss was part of her character's journey and she was grateful for the "push" she had to lose the weight), but Kate has her own issues that no one is allowed to address without being accused of "body shaming." Kate's fat. Kate has an unhealthy relationship with food not unlike Jack and Kevin had unhealthy relationships with alcohol. They were expected to get help. Randall was expected to get help for his anxiety. All of that happened. Anytime Kate starts to get help, I feel like they just drop it. Her speech yesterday about liking Toby before when he was unhealthy and trying to cover for how physically and emotionally unhealthy he was speaks volumes - but I have no confidence the writers actually address that problem. Kate will be right and Toby will be wrong.

 

[cardigirl]

14 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It wasn't Toby's weight loss but his emotional affair with his crossfit buddy Kara that started it.  

Well, also, his emotional affair with Crossfit.  New converts to that way of life often annoy others who haven't joined in by reciting facts and talking about their personal achievements. The new way of life has them feeling great and they want to share!

When my father was told to lose weight, he went for it.  He started running, quit smoking, gave up coffee, and he changed his diet. Dropped over 50lbs and kept it off. He was in the best shape of his life, and my mother couldn't stand it. Maybe she felt guilty because she wasn't making these choices. Maybe she felt judged, although I never heard my dad say anything to her about not joining in with him. But he did talk about how great he felt, and how many miles he had run that morning.  He wasn't eating fried foods anymore. 

I was proud of him, but I didn't live with him, lol, as I had moved out to college before he did all of this. My poor mom, on the other hand, was not a big fan of the new and improved hubby.  She just didn't want to change, and didn't think he needed to either.  I remember my dad saying how he started running to help lose weight and she barked out that the doctor told him to start taking walks, he didn't need to run. 😲 Her reaction reminds me so much of how Kate resisted embracing Toby's changes. I think Kate feels some pressure from Toby to adjust her life, and now that he wants the family to move for his job, she's decided she'd rather be a music teacher than be with him. 

I don't really care for this storyline, though, because I enjoyed their falling in love story.  And I like Toby.  

[Empress1]

11 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Well, also, his emotional affair with Crossfit.  New converts to that way of life often annoy others who haven't joined in by reciting facts and talking about their personal achievements. The new way of life has them feeling great and they want to share!

Toby wasn’t doing this though - he was hiding it from Kate initially. She noticed that he had lost weight and gotten more muscular and then he revealed to her that he’d been doing CrossFit. She was miffed because she took it as a knock at her.

I remember being on Team Toby about losing weight because he had a heart attack and nearly died - he HAD to get healthy. There’s no real argument against him losing weight and doing cardio to get his heart healthier given that he had a heart attack.

[CdrJanny]

2 hours ago, zoey1996 said:

They couldn't get out because the brick that held the gate open had been moved. I'm guessing that the gate was ajar, held by the brick, and that's how Kevin, and then Kate and Randall, got in.

And Randall, being the World's Champion Fixer, moved the brick to the side out of the way, so it wouldn't be a trip hazard.

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, phalange said:

If you see your spouse as an equal, you do not practically buy a house without telling them. Toby didn't even give Kate a hint that he was looking at houses, didn't show her a picture beforehand, nothing, just sprung the house on her. People condemn Jack for buying a house without telling Rebecca, so why is it okay when Toby does it? 

Because Toby didn't actually pull the trigger on the house.  He just arranged for Kate to see it.  Not the same thing at all, IMO.  No money spent, no commitment to purchase. Considering how easily Kate becomes offended/angered by things he does or doesn't do; I presume he didn't tell her in advance because 1. he hadn't committed to anything other than spending 10-15 minutes walking through the house and 2. If she knew in advance, she would most likely have gone off on him and refused to look at the house anyway.  He's married to a woman who is generally a pessimist who hates change and new things; I can see why he tries to avoid confronting her head-on.  It's another good reason that their marriage is doomed.

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like Toby is manipulating Kate here with this line of thinking.  If Old Toby was suicidal, she had no idea.  He never communicated this with her.  If Toby's humor was just a deflection, again she had no idea and that means he just told her that the person she fell in love with was a lie.  To me, it feels like New Toby hates his old self, and the Kate that loves Old Toby has no place in his new life.  

 

It wasn't Toby's weight loss but his emotional affair with his crossfit buddy Kara that started it.  

Not sure.  I think the weightloss hits hard with Kate because she can't succeed at it. 

I'm wondering now if Toby's marriage to Kate is part of deflection/low self esteem and now that he feels he's a "winner" maybe he thinks hes has outgrown Kate?! 

I mean he knows how tied Kate is to LA and even if Jack wasn't blind , I don't see her up and moving to S.F. in a heartbeat. 

[cardigirl]

18 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Toby wasn’t doing this though - he was hiding it from Kate initially. She noticed that he had lost weight and gotten more muscular and then he revealed to her that he’d been doing CrossFit. She was miffed because she took it as a knock at her.

I remember being on Team Toby about losing weight because he had a heart attack and nearly died - he HAD to get healthy. There’s no real argument against him losing weight and doing cardio to get his heart healthier given that he had a heart attack.

I remember a get-together where Kate was complaining about Toby's new lifestyle to some family member. It was the same event where she began to wonder about the other woman. So she knew about the CrossFit at that point. Given how Kate reacts to Toby trying to change, I guess I don't blame him for not telling her about joining a box. I think, if I were Toby, I wouldn't broadcast that I was doing it until I knew if I was going to stick with it. 

[himela]

So I loved this episode. I even tolerated seeing Jack because I really wanted to know the whole story. In many ways I see myself in Kate but thank God I have a husband who would actually discuss with me something that huge as a job offer or buying a house or moving.

The episode made me see clearly both Toby's and Kate's sides. It's as simple as "they grew out of each other". They were together when both were co-miserating but now that they feel strong in who they are and what they want to achieve, they realize their love is not strong enough to sacrifice these needs in order to be together. And the correct thing to do is divorce and create a healthy environment for their kids to accept that divorce.

This episode was everything I am looking for in a show, a movie, whatever; I love to see couples trying to work things out.

[screenaddict]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Finally, was anyone else appalled that Jack and Rebecca paid zero attention to Randall at the pool? Even if your young child is a good swimmer, you're still supposed to keep an eye on them.

Young Randall is Perfect. As a Perfect child, he would never traumatize his parents by drowning. 

In all seriousness, the characterization of Randall throughout the series has always reminded me of that interview question: What are your greatest faults? You're supposed to say something like, "I tend to spend too much time making sure the final product is perfect" or "I fully invest myself in a successful outcome." It's like someone asked the writers to list Randall's faults, and they came up with "He tries to hard to fix everything" and "He loves to the point of being anxious." I wish we would get one glimpse of Randall cursing because he stepped on a Lego.

OK, Toby and Kate. This storyline seems to be the weakest point of this season. Maybe the writers underestimated Chris Sullivan's likeability. As a married couple, they do a lousy job communicating. I do understand Kate's desire to stay put - I would want to be close to my terminally ill mother and keep my children in an environment I knew and appreciated. But it doesn't sound like they ever talked about what would happen if this job went well. It's like they both closed their eyes and hoped things would go their way. (OK, in this respect, they're like a lot of married couples I know.) I just feel like the writers want Toby to be the bad guy and Kate to be the good guy, and it would be more believable if they presented it as a case of truly irreconcilable differences. Plus, we still don't know why dying Rebecca would want Toby at her bedside if Kate is happily remarried!

Did anyone else want Uncle Jesse and Uncle Joey to come strolling out of the townhouses while Kate was walking up the hill?

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It wasn't Toby's weight loss but his emotional affair with his crossfit buddy Kara that started it.  

As I recall, Toby started Crossfit and eating healthier without telling Kate.  And, when she realized he had lost a significant amount of weight, she was kinda miffed at him about it.  It's been a pattern in the marriage, Toby is open to change and doing new things and enjoys the challenge, Kate does not.  She wants to remain inside her little bubble and wants everyone inside it with her to never change, too.  Hence, Toby didn't want to tell her that he followed the doctor's advice and dieting and exercising even though virtually any other wife would be happy he was taking care of himself.  He should've been upfront about it and she should've been supportive; its the same song they've been singing since they met.