S01.E09: Dangerously Close

[Whimsy]

Quote

Anna obsesses over her trial style as Vivian covers the proceedings, Rachel takes the stand and defense lawyer Todd implores his client to cooperate.

 

[Pj3422]

Ok, I devoured the entire series — and enjoyed it. (I mean, the clothes alone…!) But  I still don’t get how seemingly rational people threw their lot in with Anna, who was so completely selfish and unpleasant. A journalist buying her clothes to wear to court? A lawyer missing out on his first family vacation in two years? I guess it’s the same thing I just don’t get about cult followers. How messed up does your life have to be to think this person is the answer? 

[MrsR]

Oh God what a horrible episode.

I got moral relativity whiplash from this.

So Rachel was the bad guy? Really?

And Kaci doesn't want to be named in the article but shows up in court?

Okey Dokey.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I liked this series until the theme turned to defending this nasty little piece of shit. Poor little Anna, just trying to make it in the big cruel world. That was much more than I could take. It turned the entire series into a example of what's wrong in the world today and I get enough of that just watching the news.

And making out like her parents were terrible for giving up on her?  That's a really low blow. Children aren't blank slates, they come to you with certain characteristics baked in. You love them and try to help them but at some point you have to let them be adults on their own terms and if their terms are sociopathic and cruel and selfish then maybe you let them go before they do serious damage to you and other children you may have. Anna was one of those children and she, as an adult, is responsible for her own damn self and all the nasty damage she does to everyone around her.

The whole thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I'm sorry I watched the thing.

 

[greekmom]

First, I think that all countries should adopt stricter penalties for fraud and that penalties should be seen through and not given time off for good behaviour.  This is crime with intent.  Anna got off light as Simon did from Tinder Swindler. The problem is that hindsight is 20/20 and people who are frauded even by so called "friends" are looked upon as fools because they "allowed it".  They don't. They are manipulated very skillfully.

I can believe that Rachel is considered the "villain" because this show was green lit by Anna herself and she got around $300K from Netflix.  Criminals should not profit from their misdeeds. So of course the morals are played fast and loose.  While I don't like Rachel's personality, no one should be swindled or frauded out of money.

I still don't believe how Vivian and Neff still stood by her. Especially how Vivian giggled in the courtroom when Rachel was giving testimony.

Also, cannot believe Todd jeopardized his marriage for this little lying twit.

Overall, I wish the telling of the story was more impartial than one sided and I wish Anna served her full 12 years.

[Zonk]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

First, I think that all countries should adopt stricter penalties for fraud and that penalties should be seen through and not given time off for good behaviour.  This is crime with intent.  

But was it? At least on the big counts? I assume she intended to pay the credit back with interest, once her business was up and running. That might have actually been the better defense. It can't be as bad, if you just fake your securities, than if you actually plan on defrauding the bank.

Though that only goes for show-Anna, not real-Anna. Show-Anna really wanted to build a business and become rich and famous by doing so. She probably even could have pulled it off. Real-Anna strikes me as somebody who just wanted to party and spend money. She would have totally used that credit for some bullshit.

 

On the more minor count: Of course Rachel was a victim here and I don't like how the narrative turned on her in the last episode. That she made some money off her horrible experience shouldn't be held against her.

 

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I can believe that Rachel is considered the "villain" because this show was green lit by Anna herself and she got around $300K from Netflix. 

She got money for this? I can't really imagine why. The story is on record and should be useable by anybody. It doesn't seem like she provided any unique inside and if she had to be paid everybody else in the story would have had to. If anything the reporter or the magazine, they took this story from, should have been payed.

Weird.

[MerBearStare]

What I liked about this show is that most of the characters were completely unlikable. It makes things more interesting that way. Anna's obviously the worst, but Vivian sucked, Todd sucked, the rich people sucked (except Hamptons caftan lady, I liked her). Neff, Kacy, Rachel, sucked, sucked, sucked. (I kind of liked Kacy up until she confronted Rachel and was like "You turned your friend in?" Her friend? She stole $62,000 from her!) The only people who seemed the least bit likable were the spouses. Good for Todd's wife for walking away. Vivian and Todd's devotion to Anna is just bizarre. They know she's a fucking con artist who doesn't give a single shit about them, yet Todd's willing to throw his marriage away over her? I'm like Mugatu yelling "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

I hated how judgey Vivian and Todd were about Anna's parents. I'm not a parent, so take that into consideration, but I think a lot more parents should be honest with themselves about how their grown-ass children have turned out. Maybe they shouldn't go so far as completely cutting contact, but at least they can acknowledge that their daughter is just rotten.

Edited February 13, 2022 by MerBearStare

[maggiegil]

I like Katie Lowes in other things but I think she was really miscast in this series. Shes supposed to be playing someone in her mid twenties, shes beautiful but she does not look that young and seems to have really gone to town on the botox recently. I don't think she played naive in the way that you needed to for the character to ring true, it all felt very one note, I would be interested to see what a different actress would do with the same character

The series also just did Rachel Williams dirty, trying to make it seem like she was a bad friend for cooperating with the police, no the bad friend is the one who leaves you high and dry for a bill they promised to pay.

[greekmom]

5 hours ago, Zonk said:

But was it? At least on the big counts? I assume she intended to pay the credit back with interest, once her business was up and running. That might have actually been the better defense. It can't be as bad, if you just fake your securities, than if you actually plan on defrauding the bank.

She got money for this? I can't really imagine why. The story is on record and should be useable by anybody. It doesn't seem like she provided any unique inside and if she had to be paid everybody else in the story would have had to. If anything the reporter or the magazine, they took this story from, should have been payed.

Weird.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/inventing-anna-heres-how-much-netflix-paid-for-the-anna-delvey-series-and-what-anna-sorokin-did-with-the-money.html/

I think she did attempt to fraud the banks.  She did claim she had a trust fund worth millions and pretended to be the contact Peter in Germany who transferred the word document she made up in German.  So she padded her assets (she really padded her assets) to obtain what she wanted.  

Then there was the fact she did commit fraud by writing those bad cheques, depositing them into the bank and then withdrawing the money from another bank. That was fraud.

 

[Chaos Theory]

8 hours ago, maggiegil said:

The series also just did Rachel Williams dirty, trying to make it seem like she was a bad friend for cooperating with the police, no the bad friend is the one who leaves you high and dry for a bill they promised to pay.

I think because the show did portray two sides of Rachel.  She wasn’t of generational wealth like a vast number of people Anna hung out with so the idea that she would want to show she belonged by handing over her credit card to show she belonged is not something that is ridiculous.   Plus she got all her money back pretty quickly once Anna was arrested.  So it’s not like she was is in debt.  She also was one of the first to sell her story.   So I can see her being painted as someone who might be telling a very slanted view of what happened.    
 

11 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

What I liked about this show is that most of the characters were completely unlikable. It makes things more interesting that way. Anna's obviously the worst, but Vivian sucked, Todd sucked, the rich people sucked (except Hamptons caftan lady, I liked her). Neff, Kacy, Rachel, sucked, sucked, sucked. (I kind of liked Kacy up until she confronted Rachel and was like "You turned your friend in?" Her friend? She stole $62,000 from her!) The only people who seemed the least bit likable were the spouses. Good for Todd's wife for walking away. Vivian and Todd's devotion to Anna is just bizarre. They know she's a fucking con artist who doesn't give a single shit about them, yet Todd's willing to throw his marriage away over her? I'm like Mugatu yelling "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

I think that is the point to a lot of the stories.   Look at the Alan Reed Chapter.  This was a rich boring banker living a grey life with a daughter who used him as a cash machine and had no prospects but didn’t really care because she wanted to “find herself”.  Then Anna comes into his life and adds color to it.  Even if he didn’t have an affair with her she still manages to show him a different way to look at things at least for awhile and gives him the insight and courage to cut off his selfish daughter.   Then the bottom falls out.  And yes he is exactly the kind of guy that “fails upward” but when you have that much money you often trade in reputation and Alan Reed’s is in shatters.

11 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

 

I hated how judgey Vivian and Todd were about Anna's parents. I'm not a parent, so take that into consideration, but I think a lot more parents should be honest with themselves about how their grown-ass children have turned out. Maybe they shouldn't go so far as completely cutting contact, but at least they can acknowledge that their daughter is just rotten.

I think in the end Vivian kinda liked Anna just a little.  But the other part was she just had a baby of her own and with all the stories circling around Anna and her childhood the idea that Anna’s parents could be so awful..,,or even worse that they were just normal people and it really was just Anna really got to Vivian.  

Edited February 13, 2022 by Chaos Theory
The usual Auto edit stuff.

[TooMuchRealityTV]

For the most part I enjoyed watching this, even though I hated most of the characters. I was surprised how much people continued to fight for and support Anna, particularly the Lawyer and Vivian. I don't think it could have been any more clear she was was a psychopath (they aren't always violent). It was actually depressing how much time/energy new mom Vivian used on Anna. I don't have kids but I get the impression that having a baby is usually an energy draining period in one's life, and yet she's wasting energy on Anna. Doesn't make any sense.

What I didn't like.

• Anna's accent. At first I thought maybe It's supposed to be a Russian person pretending to have a German accent. I don't have a point of reference for that kind of thing. But having seen a clip of the real Anna, it doesn't sound like her.
• Making Rachel into a villain. She was definitely conned by Anna. I didn't have a problem with the phone luring thing, or the book deal. Anna could have kept all of that from happening by not attempting the Moroccan vacation con. Also, Kacy trying to lay Rachel out for betraying a friend, after the money was forgiven. Seriously? Anna is not your friend. She wasn't Rachel's friend. You were all being used for various reasons. When you need a friend Anna most definitely will not be there. Rachel doesn't owe Anna a damn thing.

[Zonk]

10 hours ago, greekmom said:

I think she did attempt to fraud the banks.  She did claim she had a trust fund worth millions and pretended to be the contact Peter in Germany who transferred the word document she made up in German.  So she padded her assets (she really padded her assets) to obtain what she wanted.  

Like I said, she faked her securities. But as long as you still intend to pay the money back with interest, that has to be a more minor count than the intend to steal it all, right?

10 hours ago, greekmom said:

Then there was the fact she did commit fraud by writing those bad cheques, depositing them into the bank and then withdrawing the money from another bank. That was fraud.

Those aren't in question, but those were the more minor counts of fraud.

[greekmom]

53 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Like I said, she faked her securities. But as long as you still intend to pay the money back with interest, that has to be a more minor count than the intend to steal it all, right?

Those aren't in question, but those were the more minor counts of fraud.

I did a paper (capstone project actually) on fraud.  Fraud is fraud. Whether you tricked someone from 10$ or $10K or $10 million.

Granted minor counts of fraud will not get you the same jail time as grand larcey.  But intent was there. Padding your assets to get a mortgage, whether you are trying to get a $600K home, or a $10 million building. Still fraud.

[SparedTurkey]

I didn't think Rachel was the villian - she didn't steal the money. But if she did sell her story before the trial, that is just dumb. Of course it would be slanted, of course she would look petty. She isn't and if people are willing to buy it fine. But sell it after the trial moron. I don't get why she lied about being part of the arrest - if Kacy was pissed about the flat out lie to her face I'd get that. Kacy was just too rah-rah universe for me. Especially when she was so big about Anna boundaries at the start.

I got Todd's dedication. Even when you have a loser, you always do your best. It's your reputation and no one respects you for half-assing it. I wouldn't book a holiday in the middle of a hearing but that is just me. I did like Todd's wife though. And Vivian's husband. And Anna's parents.

I also loved scriberia - Akalitus! (Nurse Jackie)

[funnygirl]

8 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I also loved scriberia - Akalitus! (Nurse Jackie)

They were the only part of this show that I truly enjoyed. 

I had to force myself to finish this. Knowing it was a one-and-done limited series helped me push through.

Edited February 14, 2022 by funnygirl

[peridot]

Vivian was an idiot to get so sucked in by a con artist - knowing in detail the shit she pulled.  I was on her husband's side in this.

I enjoyed Todd's candor with Anna, but ducking out on your family vacation is crazy.  So what the girl alienated all the people in her life who loved her, she didn't need some random guy acting as her father.  I really hated that he called her a kid too.  She wasn't a teenager.

Rachel shouldn't have hid what she done to bring Anna in, but Kacy seemed like such a fair-weather friend.  So what she sold her story - it doesn't negate all the stress and fear she went through in Morocco and when she returned to New York.

[bilgistic]

There's a lot to dislike about this show, but hands down, the worst part is Caitlin FitzGerald's bang wig. It looks like hay stuck to her head.

[fountain]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

There's a lot to dislike about this show, but hands down, the worst part is Caitlin FitzGerald's bang wig. It looks like hay stuck to her head.

Is that the lawyer's wife? If so, yes what was up with that, it was awful! Why did she need bad bangs?

I think it was crazy how roped in Vivian became. I can see it for getting the article done before the baby, as that was to recover her career. After that? Move on to the next story you have a newborn at home.

I hope the lawyer stuff was made up and he didn't really tank his marriage  for a con artist.

[BusyOctober]

I had seen several shows about Anna before this, and I was aware of her fraud case.  This show admittedly made some shit up to make a better story, so I don’t know how many of the details are real or fake.  I just know I hated almost everyone by the end of the final episode.  Jack, Todd’s wife and the judge were the only 3 characters I liked at the very end.  

I was loving the sage residents of “Scriberia” until they were all rooting for Anna to be found not guilty.  WTF?  They worked on the story with Vivian, and knew what a sociopath Anna was.

 Vivian was horrible. If I were the real New Yorker writer, I’d be embarrassed by my portrayal in this shit show. She was shown as a selfish spouse, and bad mother (although I personally think those labels are sexist and misogynistic because historically men are lauded for their dedication to work over family).  She was shown as a lazy writer who lacked respect for deadlines and without professional objectivity.  And why didn’t Netflix use her real name?  Jessica got mentioned in the credits and in the epilogue notes, so everyone knows her real name.  All the other characters in Anna’s orbit had their real names used.

Rachel may have been opportunistic and she got swept up in the jet set lifestyle Anna was pretending to share with her ‘friends’.  I can understand how a 20-something woman (or man) could get sucked in to lavish parties, trips, clothes, spas days, etc. However, there is no way Rachel was more corrupt than Anna!!  And for Neff and Kacy to take the moral high ground over Rachel was a bridge too far for me.  Kacy and Neff witnessed Anna’s fraud and manipulations firsthand!  As for Neff, for someone who was living modestly and complaining about struggling to make rent and pay bills, she all the sudden had some amazing designer clothes for the trial.  Did her stylist friend offer her outfits too?  I don’t think she could afford the $1200 per diem fee Anna was being charged.

Anna should have done more time, but white collar crime is not taken seriously. She will continue to con people for the rest of her life.  Just like Martin Shkreli and Billy McFarland…they are all missing the gene for compassion, they have no conscience and only think of satisfying their own warped sense of self.
 

[Schweedie]

3 hours ago, fountain said:

I think it was crazy how roped in Vivian became. I can see it for getting the article done before the baby, as that was to recover her career. After that? Move on to the next story you have a newborn at home.

It really bothered me, because I think the show failed in making us see WHY she was roped in. Anna was nothing but unpleasant to her. Why did she care? She had the whole story (as did the rest of Scriberia), what on Earth made her believe or even want to believe that Anna was anything but a sociopath and a con artist? Like you say, wanting to get that first article done made sense to me, but the way she acted in this episode? Nope. This was *after* she figured out that Anna lied to get herself into rehab.

3 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

Rachel may have been opportunistic and she got swept up in the jet set lifestyle Anna was pretending to share with her ‘friends’.  I can understand how a 20-something woman (or man) could get sucked in to lavish parties, trips, clothes, spas days, etc. However, there is no way Rachel was more corrupt than Anna!!  And for Neff and Kacy to take the moral high ground over Rachel was a bridge too far for me.  Kacy and Neff witnessed Anna’s fraud and manipulations firsthand!

Neff frustrated me so much. After all that, you still maintain that Anna didn't do anything wrong? It's one thing to stand by your friend despite their wrongdoings, but you can't just keep pretending she isn't guilty when there's a mountain of proof. You can't maintain that her dad just temporarily cut her off and that it would've worked itself out when you now have proof that there was no money there. And you don't have to like Rachel to accept the fact that she actually was a victim in this.

I couldn't tell if the show wanted to portray Rachel as a villain or if it wanted us to see how Anna managed to twist it into her being the villain, but no matter how shallow or opportunistic she was, she was *not* the villain here. It didn't make sense to me that Kacy would take the moral high ground over Rachel like that after everything, either, and I'm gonna chalk that up to a failing of the show.

[FozzyBear]

I liked this show as a piece of true crime fluff, but over all the I’m not sure it actually “found the story.” I’m still not sure why so many people were supposed to be enamored with Anna either before or after she was discovered. For Neff and Vivian and the other writers I think we were supposed to believe it was a mix of administration for her moxie and disgust at the rich people she was fleecing…but she was hardly a Robin Hood. She wanted a bunch of money so she could start a rich person club. She wasn’t trying to challenge the system, she was trying to start a rich person club. And why did everyone take for granted that if she had gotten the loan it would have gone to her business? I doubt that. Judging by the numbers being thrown around the loan would not have been enough to start her “business” (I’m sorry but I CAN NOT take her rich kid club house seriously) but not to do that and fund her lifestyle. I know it’s a ton of money but the building and renovations alone would have taken up most of the loan and then she wanted incredibly expensive everything. Even 20 million will run out. Why in all of this did not one mention she obviously meant to continue living the high life with that money. She had no other means of support, of course a bunch of that money would have gone to her lifestyle. I thought the German translator had the most interesting take. That maybe she’s just a shallow con artist. Maybe there isn’t more there with Anna and that’s the problem.

[Melina22]

11 hours ago, peridot said:

Rachel shouldn't have hid what she done to bring Anna in, but Kacy seemed like such a fair-weather friend.  So what she sold her story - it doesn't negate all the stress and fear she went through in Morocco and when she returned to New York.

Unlike many people, I don't think we were supposed to end the show on Anna's side and against Rachel. Everyone is shown as being a mix of good and bad, but Anna in particular is shown quite clearly to be a sociopath who only cares about herself. Witness the scene where she throws a massive tantrum and holds up court because her clothes were dirty, and she treats her devoted lawyer like garbage. Could she be a LESS sympathic character? 

Despite this, she still had people who stayed stubbornly on her side, but I believe we're supposed to understand that this is more about them than about Anna, who will always choose herself first. 

I guess I enjoyed this show so much because I've watched this whole sociopath/victim scenario play out more than once in my own life, sadly without the yachts or designer clothes, and all the complicated dynamics in the show ring true to me, just on a vastly more public level. I'll probably watch the series again soon. 

[questionfear]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:31 AM, MerBearStare said:

What I liked about this show is that most of the characters were completely unlikable. It makes things more interesting that way. Anna's obviously the worst, but Vivian sucked, Todd sucked, the rich people sucked (except Hamptons caftan lady, I liked her). Neff, Kacy, Rachel, sucked, sucked, sucked. (I kind of liked Kacy up until she confronted Rachel and was like "You turned your friend in?" Her friend? She stole $62,000 from her!) The only people who seemed the least bit likable were the spouses. Good for Todd's wife for walking away. Vivian and Todd's devotion to Anna is just bizarre. They know she's a fucking con artist who doesn't give a single shit about them, yet Todd's willing to throw his marriage away over her? I'm like Mugatu yelling "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

I hated how judgey Vivian and Todd were about Anna's parents. I'm not a parent, so take that into consideration, but I think a lot more parents should be honest with themselves about how their grown-ass children have turned out. Maybe they shouldn't go so far as completely cutting contact, but at least they can acknowledge that their daughter is just rotten.

Agreed. I binged the whole thing and my one takeaway was that I would 100% hang with the caftan lady. She was the most genuine and the only person who appeared to grasp things like manners and appropriate behavior. I kind of wanted to see her again just to see her take on the whole thing once it unraveled. 

[peachmangosteen]

10 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

And why didn’t Netflix use [the reporter's] real name?  Jessica got mentioned in the credits and in the epilogue notes, so everyone knows her real name.  All the other characters in Anna’s orbit had their real names used.

Yea, I didn't understand this either. Especially once I saw the real woman was an exec producer. I thought perhaps she was against the show or something and that's why they changed the name but if she was a producer then that can't be true. It makes no sense to me.

I sincerely hope that the level of devotion these people, particularly the reporter and lawyer, had to Anna was made up for the show because otherwise yikes.

I kept waiting for Vivian and Todd to fuck. In the end, I kinda liked their weird relationship even though I couldn't stand Vivian or Anna Chlumsky's portrayal of her or understand why in the hell they were friends plus the fact that it was all written so badly and nonsensically lol.

Speaking of Anna Chlumsky, the way she was always contorting her face was so distracting to me. It was annoying as hell.

I also thought Katie Lowes was kinda terrible in this. Her crying read like it was supposed to be comedy to me but I don't think that was what was intended so it didn't work.

Honestly, all the actors were pretty bad. Julia Garner was probably the best but the accent was a real miss.

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I didn't understand this either. Especially once I saw the real woman was an exec producer. I thought perhaps she was against the show or something and that's why they changed the name but if she was a producer then that can't be true. It makes no sense to me.

 

I am guessing the real Jessica Pressler did not want people thinking she was quite as self-centered as Vivian. It's one thing to take the broad strokes of her story (pregnant, had a bad reporting incident) and another to make it seem like she was ignoring her husband, obsessing over this woman, and bending the ethics of journalism to the breaking point. 

[meatball77]

On 2/12/2022 at 8:34 AM, Pj3422 said:

Ok, I devoured the entire series — and enjoyed it. (I mean, the clothes alone…!) But  I still don’t get how seemingly rational people threw their lot in with Anna, who was so completely selfish and unpleasant. A journalist buying her clothes to wear to court? A lawyer missing out on his first family vacation in two years? I guess it’s the same thing I just don’t get about cult followers. How messed up does your life have to be to think this person is the answer? 

It's because even though she screwed a lot of them most of them ended up getting something from her.  The lawyer wasn't going to miss out on the most important case of his career and Vivian besides being obsessed with figuring out the puzzle of Anna got journalistic fame.

Most con artists that get that entrenched into society do so while sleeping their way into those places, so it was interesting to see that except for the first relationship (where they were both working their cons together) that she didn't use sex at all to get what she wanted.

[Cupcake04]

I see I am totally in the minority here but I think Rachel was as bad as Anna and Chase.  I was cheering with Viv when she was found not guilty on Rachel’s charge and loved the cross examination scene.  Couldnt stand her from her first moment on screen.  Known several Rachels irl and they will ride that victim train first class all the way.  

I loved this series.  Bummed it is over.  

[Showthyme]

Why did the other reporters want Anna to be found not guilty and why were they cheering for her? after watching the series twice, I cannot understand why so many supported Anna throughout the trial. I did not find her charming. To me, it looked like she threw a tantrum and people gave in. She was not influential, just loud.

I would have found the charges for “stealing” from Rachel not guilty too. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Showthyme

[Marley]

Wow this last episode just made me hate the show.

Everyone just acting like Anna is this poor little girl. I’m not a fan of greedy rich ppl or big banks but this show is pathetic how they made it seem like I should be all on Anna’s side. She’s a horrible bitch. It’s not like she wanted to do good with her money she was planning on building some elite club for jerk rich ppl and she would keep out ppl she thinks are less then such as poor ppl. Lol what a joke.

Todd and Vivian are embarrassing. Todd throws away his whole life and family for Anna? What a loser. His wife should’ve left him.

The show just made me think Vivian is a horrible journalist. An Obsessive idiot.

Neff is an annoying bitch. Her stupid looks and expressions ugh.

I don’t know why Kacy was so ragey with Rachel. A bit over the top.

Typical Shonda show that starts out pretty good or decent but is garbage in the end.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Marley

[Pi237]

I also didn’t understand Vivian’s MANIC devotion to Anna. (Or the other writers cheering for her not guilty’s.) Why? Because she was very thin and could cry? Or that her parents gave up on her? That whole ‘no child should hear what they said’ So dramatic, all they really said was that They could never get through to Anna, and nothing they ever did for her was good enough. Anna used and abused everyone she knew. I kept waiting for ‘the story’ that would make Vivians sympathy for her make sense,  but she even faked her suicide attempt-which Vivian Knew.  The series just took a strange turn trying to make Anna the victim when it spent all previous episodes showing why she was anything but.
 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Pi237

[FozzyBear]

9 hours ago, Showthyme said:

 

I would have found the charges for “stealing” from Rachel not guilty too. 

Same and much like you I hated Anna. And Rachel did get scammed, but I think what Anna did to her was shitty, not criminal. If Rachel had gotten her head together she would have told the hotel they were checking out as soon as the credit card became an issue. Told Anna she could help out since Anna had been so generous but this was all more than she could afford and they needed to leave immediately. And then told the hotel the same thing. That way she might have been harassing Anna for $20,000 instead of $60,000.  Learning that some peoples credit card always has a “hold” on it is a tough lesson but a good one. Anna took advantage of Rachel but I don’t think she stole from her here. Still incredibly shitty and I don’t understand trying to make Rachel the villain. If Anna hadn’t scammed enough money to pay her hotel bill Neff could have been testifying as well and Todd would have ripped into her too. I don’t think any of the people Anna scammed are at fault. She was a scammer! It’s what they do!

[Straycat80]

I enjoyed this series and binged it over two nights. The last two episodes lost me though. Agree with the above comments on why so many people idolized Anna at the end. She was a horrible person. Lots of people grow up poor or with shitty parents, they don’t use that as an excuse to do criminal things to people and friends and be an asshole. 
I read somewhere the real Anna is still in immigration prison, I hope she gets deported. 
 

[Bubbles1967]

The one who pissed me off the most was Neff. Her devotion to Anna was sickening. She did not see Anna for what she was at all. 

Her contempt for Rachel really pissed me off. She said Rachel offered her card in Morocco.  Well if she was threatened with prison in a foreign country, She would be whipping out her card out too. 

She was a lucky one because she got her money back, and the hotel she worked at was paid. Bet if that wasn’t the case, she wouldn’t think the same way about Anna.

what cracked me up was when she was trying to schedule visits with Kacey and Rachel to see Anna. Um do you really think Kacey and especially Rachel, would want to see her after she took money from them. please!

 

 

[hiisa]

Ok I really want to know this: Does Anna speak 7 languages or freaking not?! They mentioned it in the first episode and its dropped and Ive been wanting to know ever sense, dang it.

Ive thought all series long that this series was bending over backwards to make Anna sympathetic (but with the obsessed Neff and Jess and Anna herself as executive producers who can be surprised by that?) but these last two eps were just TOO MUCH. 

All along the series there was this weird underlying vibe that we should root for Anna because shes a woman and shes young and men who do the same things dont have consequences so why should she? Everyone should have consequences when they break the law! Anna should have consequences for breaking the law! I know she spent a few years in prison and shes in ICE detainment now but when Vivi was all but *sobbing* that Anna was having her bright future stolen from her---NO! No. She stole from other people. She is a criminal. 

 

I dont think Anna was guilty in the Rachel case either. She had ample opportunity to leave and decided not to. But watching Neff and Vivi giggle at her and watching Anna smirk at her as she was falling apart on the stand as Todd was taking her apart didnt sit well with me. Watching Vivi and Todd clink glasses at what a great job he did breaking her didnt sit well with me. They are both so quick to call Anna this little girl but isnt Rachel supposed to be around the same age?  And even if Anna isnt guilty of ripping off Rachel shes guilty of ripping off a whole lot of other people. 

Now I need to find some less biased and waaaaaay more objective docs on this psycho. 

I really dont get Vivi though. I really dont. She knows more about Anna than probably anyone. She talked to so many people off the record and she still fell into the web.

Is it wrong that I hope Anna got punched by someone--anyone!--at least once. 

And finally, I loved Val. 

[Melina22]

8 minutes ago, hiisa said:

Ok I really want to know this: Does Anna speak 7 languages or freaking not?! They mentioned it in the first episode and its dropped and Ive been wanting to know ever sense, dang it

Today I watched an interview with Julia who actually met with Anna before playing her, and she said Anna does speak several languages and is very smart. So that was true. 

9 minutes ago, hiisa said:

All along the series there was this weird underlying vibe that we should root for Anna because shes a woman and shes young and men who do the same things dont have consequences so why should she? 

I seem to differ from many here in thinking that the program, by showing all of Anna, including the extremely bad and unpleasant, as well as all of Rachel, doesn't tell us how to feel. We can decide for ourselves what we think about them. They didn't hold back that Anna's a narcissistic sociopath who steals and lies. Who could watch that and end up on her side?

As for Rachel, the evidence was more nuanced, so I expect a difference of opinion on whether or not Anna stole from her. (I think she did.) 

I believe Shonda had more respect for the viewers than to think we'd think "Vivian and Neff still like Anna. She must be okay!" or "Rachel didn't win the case. What a freeloader." She gave us the evidence so we can draw logical conclusions. JMHO. 

[SlovakPrincess]

The confrontation between Anna and Todd was actually quite good, and I enjoyed that scene immensely. 

I think it was a bit of a gray area with Rachel -- ultimately she turned out more than fine, and I can see that count being a closer call for the jury and them losing sympathy for her.  But I don't think she's the bad guy - if she hadn't helped the police catch Anna, she might've still been in trouble with the credit card company and her employer.  The book deal is quite a windfall ... but unlike Anna's schemes, it's actually legal to write a book about your own experience and get paid for it! 

Kacy's attitude toward Rachel was so shitty by the end.   Does Kacy actually think Anna was in luxury rehab because she needed it and Rachel and the cops somehow deprived her of treatment?  LOL.  

Vivan is so unethical and inappropriate.  She's literally buying access with clothing and trying to collaborate with the defense lawyer.  Then the dramatics when Anna gets convicted and sentenced.  Ridiculous.  

Todd's wife - a LAWYER at a big law firm - would NOT be screaming at him because his trial went long, or demanding that he hand a case over to "co-counsel" mid-trial.  Other than his young, likely inexperienced associate, he has no co-counsel!   Nor would Todd or the wife expect him to hand his just-convicted client over to the young associate.  Also, he would not have scheduled an international vacation so close to a trial that he knows could go for days and might need post-trial motions and other work.  This.  would.  not.  happen.   Stupid.

The phone call between Todd's kid and Anna was so dumb and contrived.

I really kind of actively hated Neff by the end of this series.  She's annoying and judgmental as all get out.  She ropes Natasha into styling an inmate who's known for not paying for services (good luck getting paid, Natasha, hope the publicity from styling a literal criminal for her trial works out for you!)   Then when Anna throws a tantrum over the clothes going missing, Neff peaces out with a shitty attitude and refuses to help her supposed bestie not fuck up her own trial.   But she thinks she's a good friend because she comes back to post it all on social media and sneer at Rachel.  Uh huh. 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[GallwayGirl]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:55 PM, Showthyme said:

Why did the other reporters want Anna to be found not guilty and why were they cheering for her? after watching the series twice, I cannot understand why so many supported Anna throughout the trial. I did not find her charming. To me, it looked like she threw a tantrum and people gave in. She was not influential, just loud.

I would have found the charges for “stealing” from Rachel not guilty too. 

Yes, this! With the tantrums. She pulled that with the one bank that wouldn’t approve her loan. She throws a hissy fit, and they extend her thousands of dollars in a line of credit (which she blows on clothes, dinners, spas etc..)AND they apologized! WTF?

 

 

[SlovakPrincess]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:15 AM, FozzyBear said:

 I’m still not sure why so many people were supposed to be enamored with Anna either before or after she was discovered. For Neff and Vivian and the other writers I think we were supposed to believe it was a mix of administration for her moxie and disgust at the rich people she was fleecing…but she was hardly a Robin Hood. She wanted a bunch of money so she could start a rich person club. She wasn’t trying to challenge the system, she was trying to start a rich person club. And why did everyone take for granted that if she had gotten the loan it would have gone to her business? I doubt that. Judging by the numbers being thrown around the loan would not have been enough to start her “business” (I’m sorry but I CAN NOT take her rich kid club house seriously) but not to do that and fund her lifestyle. I know it’s a ton of money but the building and renovations alone would have taken up most of the loan and then she wanted incredibly expensive everything. Even 20 million will run out. Why in all of this did not one mention she obviously meant to continue living the high life with that money. She had no other means of support, of course a bunch of that money would have gone to her lifestyle. I thought the German translator had the most interesting take. That maybe she’s just a shallow con artist. Maybe there isn’t more there with Anna and that’s the problem.

So much this.  The show - and Vivian - seemed to want to make this into a much more deep situation than it actually was.  "Wall Street gets away with this stuff, but Anna gets screwed??  Aren't we all users and opportunists, when you think about it??  Doesn't this really make you think about society and capitalism??"   LOL ... um, no.  This is one very troubled, delusional, and unpleasant woman whose elaborate cons finally blew up in her face, and all the hand holding and enabling is not actually helping her.

Anna wanted to create an exclusive club for only super-rich people to admire art, smell each other's farts, and avoid the poor and unattractive (even more than they already do).  She lied and forged fake papers in an attempt to get a multi-million $$ loan ... this is still criminal attempted fraud even if the bank ultimately rejects the loan and whether or not Anna intended to someday pay the money back if her ridiculous business ever got off the ground.  And as you point out -- she did get a line of credit and blew all that money on clothes, expensive hotel suites, and other bullshit, she didn't put it toward her business venture.  

[MerBearHou]

I'm actually kind of sickened that I spent 9 hours with this woman and some of her awful "friends".  The way Todd, Vivian, Neff, Alan, Kacy, originally Rachel, defended her and were spellbound by her made me want to vomit.  I wish I'd never watched this series.  

[Madding crowd]

I really despised Vivian, Neff and Anna by the end of this. I'm a journalist myself and if I attempted to buy something for a source, I would have been fired. I hated Vivian's hysterics and ignoring her husband and baby because she was so enthralled with Anna. I was also hoping Todd would have told Anna to go to hell when she was screaming at him because he wouldn't tell the court she was a rich heiress. I can't  believe the judge put up with the temper tantrums over clothes. I keep reading here that Rachel could have just left the hotel without anyone paying and that was never an option. They were told if someone did not produce a working credit card they would be arrested and no one wants to be in a Moroccan jail. They only let her leave when she gave them the card. i see nothing wrong with someone who is a victim writing about their experiences and making money off of it, tons of people do it. And she could have been arrested by her company for fraud if she could not repay the credit card.  It was eventually forgiven by American Express but only after it was reported to the police but she could have still lost her job. 

I did wonder why these rich people were so fascinated by Anna. She was unpleasant and insulting, unattractive and humorless. There are hanger on's to the rich but usually they are charming in some way. I also wanted to know how Anna was able to draw up the extensive business plans she presented to get her foundation loan; it takes some knowledge and skill to make up detailed business plans. I know she was said to be very smart but she didn't seem overly intelligent in this portrayal. She mostly came across as unpleasant and bored. I do plan on reading Rachels book .

[Melina22]

51 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

They were told if someone did not produce a working credit card they would be arrested and no one wants to be in a Moroccan jail. 

Exactly. I can't understand why it wasn't considered theft. Anna knew she had no money and Rachel handed over her card under great duress. 

51 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

do plan on reading Rachels book .

I read the whole thing, and just a warning... there are sections that are just pages and pages about Rachel's childhood, education, career, etc. I found these sections so dull I skipped a lot. I did find the parts about Anna very interesting though. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Melina22

[SparedTurkey]

8 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Exactly. I can't understand why it wasn't considered theft. Anna knew she had no money and Rachel handed over her card under great duress. 

Right! It is like a flatmate refusing to pay their share of the rent for three months and you having to cover it in the short term so you wouldn't be homeless - there is a contract, everyone knows their obligation.

Hell, it is like a much much much more expensive version of covering a mate's share of the restaurant bill when they 'forget' their wallet and then refuse to pay. If I were Rachel I would be pissed, I'd want out of all the debt and I would want the grifter to pay. And I cannot dream of affording a $65k luxury vacation

[greekmom]

13 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Exactly. I can't understand why it wasn't considered theft. Anna knew she had no money and Rachel handed over her card under great duress. 

 

Exactly.  What I don't understand is Racheal knew that Anna was having "credit card issues" and there's the internet.  So why in hell did they a) not google how much the Gucci tour is and b) not go since no one had cash?

I am not a Rachel fan (something about her or her personality grates me) but if she really was concerned about charges on her cc she would have declined/cancelled the cards, whatever once she touched down the States. 

I do agree that Anna should have been found guilty regardless if Rachel gained something by selling the story.

[SlovakPrincess]

20 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Exactly.  What I don't understand is Racheal knew that Anna was having "credit card issues" and there's the internet.  So why in hell did they a) not google how much the Gucci tour is and b) not go since no one had cash?

Yeah, that was weird.  How do you not ask how much the house tour and tea service are before you go through it?   However, that was still a ridiculous, laughable amount to charge for a tour of a mansion and one meal.  How can you charge $2000 for that?  Insanity, but I guess they can get away with it because very silly rich tourists will pay for a "VIP" experience.  Rachel should've known better, but I can see her thinking it would be in the hundreds, not thousands - at most - for the fancy tour, she didn't realize Anna and Noah had no cash or anything to kick toward it, and she was just so grateful to finally do something fun on the trip. 

[SparedTurkey]

15 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

How can you charge $2000 for that?  Insanity, but I guess they can get away with it because very silly rich tourists will pay for a "VIP" experience.

My favourite bit was the very quick shot of the driver having the best time drinking the tea and eating the biscuits! I hope that is a real perk those guys get when driving around awful rich people (not saying all rich people are awful, just meaning rich people who are awful)

[SlovakPrincess]

I did like the little view we got into how the concierges, drivers, and other service industry professionals formed connections and worked together, in both New York and Morocco.   I wish we had more of that!  

Overall, for all my complaining, I did enjoy the series.   But at the end of the day, I was disappointed because I don't feel like I actually learned anything new about how the super-rich operate (and manipulate each other), and how Anna was able to infiltrate that world.  How did she even end up on the New York party scene??  She had to start somewhere, but we just get kinda dropped into the middle of her long con.   

I promise I'm not looking for an instruction manual on how to run scams, LOL, but the series seemed to want to say something about social climbing amongst the super-rich and how, psychologically, they could manipulate and be manipulated, and then ... really didn't.  We didn't even get a scene showing Rachel and Anna meeting, which seems like a huge oversight.  

I also don't get how Anna could keep working with the architect and other folks she met through Nora after Nora realized Anna stole $400k from her -- like Nora wouldn't find a way (even if she was embarrassed) to warn all her connections and kill Anna's reputation in a heartbeat??

Edited February 19, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[FozzyBear]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I did like the little view we got into how the concierges, drivers, and other service industry professionals formed connections and worked together, in both New York and Morocco.   I wish we had more of that!  

Overall, for all my complaining, I did enjoy the series.   But at the end of the day, I was disappointed because I don't feel like I actually learned anything new about how the super-rich operate (and manipulate each other), and how Anna was able to infiltrate that world.  How did she even end up on the New York party scene??  She had to start somewhere, but we just get kinda dropped into the middle of her long con.   

I promise I'm not looking for an instruction manual on how to run scams, LOL, but the series seemed to want to say something about social climbing amongst the super-rich and how, psychologically, they could manipulate and be manipulated, and then ... really didn't.  We didn't even get a scene showing Rachel and Anna meeting, which seems like a huge oversight.  

I also don't get how Anna could keep working with the architect and other folks she met through Nora after Nora realized Anna stole $400k from her -- like Nora wouldn't find a way (even if she was embarrassed) to warn all her connections and kill Anna's reputation in a heartbeat??

I was sort of wondering about Anna’s entry into scamming too. How did she start out. How did no one ask more questions about her background? I imagine the super rich is a pretty small circle, did no one think it was odd she hadn’t been to any of the right schools or camps? Maybe they did and the series just didn’t focus on that. I did notice (although I don’t think it was something the series was trying to point out)that Anna’s circle was either rich & older or young & not rich. Maybe the older, rich crowd though they hadn’t met her because she was so young and the young, not rich crowd thought it was because she was so rich. As long as she avoided the young, super rich crowd that should have met her she was ok?

[SlovakPrincess]

1 hour ago, FozzyBear said:

 I did notice (although I don’t think it was something the series was trying to point out)that Anna’s circle was either rich & older or young & not rich. Maybe the older, rich crowd though they hadn’t met her because she was so young and the young, not rich crowd thought it was because she was so rich. As long as she avoided the young, super rich crowd that should have met her she was ok?

That's an interesting point, and would've been interesting to explore ... Anna realizing she had to avoid the young super rich because they kept asking what schools she'd been to or were like "why don't you know so and so?" 

Maybe some of the time spent watching Vivian yell and swear and make faces at people for no good reason could've been devoted to that ...

[Meow25]

I watched the whole thing, and my take away is that I hated every single character, and yet I was interested enough to watch the entire series in three days.  Unlike other comments I've seen, I think Shonda crafted this very well.  I don't think there are any clear heroes in this story, and it is more of a commentary on how classism is alive and well in NYC, and that Anna was accidentally exposing this truth....and how many people SAY they are one thing (liberal NY'ers) and act the opposite.  

Anna and all of her friends are just horrible people.I felt deeply only for Val ...but i came away from this series thinking that it was interesting to watch, but the only character I liked was Vivians husband, and the dickhead lawyer's wife.  

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Meow25

[Jordan Baker]

I just finished the series. What an inconsistent mess it was.

I found the first few episodes almost boring, even though I was interested in watching the series and seeing how everything played out. I hate giving up on shows (unless they're too distrubing), and so I plodded ahead. My perseverance was partially rewarded by the episode set in Morocco, which I thought was well-written and well-paced. That episode actually had some tension, and I felt something for the three people who were not Anna. The episodes for me seemed to go downhill after Morocco.

The last episode was just crazy, especially when Viv kept saying "we" to Todd about winning the case. And I could almost excuse Viv's being so all-in because she didn't strike me as the best journalist in the world, but why would her fellow Scriberians be rooting for Anna? That made no sense at all to me. And would a judge really allow court to be held up until a defendant was finished getting dressed?

On a positive note, I found many of the actors (for example, the three non-Viv residents of Scriberia) to be top-notch. I also enjoyed seeing Anthony Edwards and Kate Burton and many others who did a good job with some so-so material. I'd never seen Julia Garner before, and I thought she did a pretty good job.

Anna Chlumsky, though, was woefully miscast. Her facial expressions were completely over the top. I honestly couldn't figure out whether she'd been told to overact or whether it was her own choice, but the eye bulging, grimacing, etc., were way too much.

Oh, well. The scenery was nice. I'm always happy to see NYC. Morocco was gorgeous. And I enjoyed seeing the German town. I guess it wasn't a total waste of time.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jordan Baker
Spelling matters.