S02.E12: Inverting the Pyramid of Success

[Juneau Gal]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:47 PM, MicheleinPhilly said:

I just binged both seasons in a matter of days so maybe it's seeing all of his awfulness condensed into a few hours or maybe it's becuase I am a Scorpio, but I have no interest in a redemption arc for Nate. Yes, I know he is a main character and my desire is obviously unrealistic but I loathe him with a vengeance and wish he would drown in the Thames. 

Fellow Scorpio here, and I am right with you. I have 0 interest in a Nate redemption. ZERO. I don't care how well they can do it. I don't care that Nate has misplaced daddy issues. I don't care that Ted laughed at him that one time. I don't care that a redemption fits the ethos of the show. I don't want it. And on top of that, I feel it would ruin the show for me. Yes, I know there is a lot of the show that is not real world, but they got more real this season with the panic attacks, the interpersonal relationships, etc. In the real world, what Nate did and his ongoing deep DEEP seated casual cruelty, may be forgiven (by people better than me) but it would never be forgotten. Nor would he be given a second chance at Richmond. Too, too many bridges burned to ever be trusted again.

I contend that redeeming Nate and bringing him back into the fold and/or helping him in his career some other way is actually against the Lasso Way. Forgive, yes. Forget, never. Accept back, nope.

[LADreamr]

7 minutes ago, Juneau Gal said:

I contend that redeeming Nate and bringing him back into the fold and/or helping him in his career some other way is actually against the Lasso Way. Forgive, yes. Forget, never. Accept back, nope.

I guess we Scorpios are all on the same page here.  I'm patient for a long, long time before I remove someone from my life (or at least downgrade them), but once it's gotten that far, there have been a lot of things that led up to it.  

I think the dangerous thing with Nate is not what he has done so far, but the potential he has shown for much worse (or continued bad) down the line.  It's the entitlement, the deep anger, and his apparent lack of conscience or forethought about any of it.  For everyone in his line of fire, it's self-protection more than vengeance, at that point.

[Schweedie]

For those of you who feel Nate can't/shouldn't be redeemed/forgiven, I'm curious - how do you guys feel about Rebecca, in comparison? Do you feel her redemption after what she did throughout the first season was earned? I mean, she tried to ruin the lives of *other people* in order to in turn hurt Rupert. (I've realised I still hold a little bit of a grudge even though I love her, heh.)

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, Schweedie said:

For those of you who feel Nate can't/shouldn't be redeemed/forgiven, I'm curious - how do you guys feel about Rebecca, in comparison? Do you feel her redemption after what she did throughout the first season was earned? I mean, she tried to ruin the lives of *other people* in order to in turn hurt Rupert. (I've realised I still hold a little bit of a grudge even though I love her, heh.)

I love Rebecca and don't consider her and Nate in even the same galaxy in terms of wrongdoing. 

Yes, she tried to tank the team but she has genuinely shown growth, maturity, and regret for what she was trying to do. She is an inherently kind person who cares about the people involved with the team. 

Nate is just a petty, cruel little shit who thinks everyone should lick his boots even though he has done nothing to deserve it. 

[Schweedie]

1 minute ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I love Rebecca and don't consider her and Nate in even the same galaxy in terms of wrongdoing. 

Yes, she tried to tank the team but she has genuinely shown growth, maturity, and regret for what she was trying to do. She is an inherently kind person who cares about the people involved with the team. 

Nate is just a petty, cruel little shit who thinks everyone should lick his boots even though he has done nothing to deserve it. 

I mean, yes, she's shown growth, which is why we forgave her - why is it impossible that Nate shows growth and regret next season?

Some of the things Rebecca did to tank the team were quite terrible, to be honest. Trying to get Keeley and Ted in trouble with the tabloids, getting Jamie sent away making him think he was unwanted, probably causing the team to go down. Even after the vulnerable moments she had with her friends and Ted in the episode where they beat Everton she was still happy to release unsold tickets for the last match of the season to Man City, even though that would hurt their chances of staying up just because "that would kill Rupert".

I guess I don't understand why the things Nate has said/done are unforgivable while the things Rebecca did aren't. She was practically the villain for part of last season, even while being awesome - we gave Rebecca space to grow and come to terms with her being wrong, why not Nate?

[Juneau Gal]

23 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

I mean, yes, she's shown growth, which is why we forgave her - why is it impossible that Nate shows growth and regret next season?

Some of the things Rebecca did to tank the team were quite terrible, to be honest. Trying to get Keeley and Ted in trouble with the tabloids, getting Jamie sent away making him think he was unwanted, probably causing the team to go down. Even after the vulnerable moments she had with her friends and Ted in the episode where they beat Everton she was still happy to release unsold tickets for the last match of the season to Man City, even though that would hurt their chances of staying up just because "that would kill Rupert".

I guess I don't understand why the things Nate has said/done are unforgivable while the things Rebecca did aren't. She was practically the villain for part of last season, even while being awesome - we gave Rebecca space to grow and come to terms with her being wrong, why not Nate?

That’s a really good question and I guess my answer is: just like in real life there are subtle nuances in character. I never felt Rebecca delighted in what she was doing, as far as potential hurt to people other than Rupert. With Nate I feel deep down cruelty; he finds glee in sticking the knife in. 
Isn’t it nice that these two actors could inspire these emotions in the viewer?! Well done, both of them. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

3 minutes ago, Juneau Gal said:

That’s a really good question and I guess my answer is: just like in real life there are subtle nuances in character. I never felt Rebecca delighted in what she was doing, as far as potential hurt to people other than Rupert. With Nate I feel deep down cruelty; he finds glee in sticking the knife in. 
Isn’t it nice that these two actors could inspire these emotions in the viewer?! Well done, both of them. 

Yes. I think you make a good point @Schweedie but this is essentially what it boils down to for me too. Yes, Rebecca was professionally petty (and let's face it, Rupert was a deserving "victim") whereas I just found Nate to be personally cruel. And taking things out on people that had done nothing to deserve it. And contrary to Rebecca, he just seemed to get worse and worse as the series progressed. 

But again, I'm a Scorpio so I will hold grudges to my grave. 😁

[Schweedie]

22 minutes ago, Juneau Gal said:

That’s a really good question and I guess my answer is: just like in real life there are subtle nuances in character. I never felt Rebecca delighted in what she was doing, as far as potential hurt to people other than Rupert. With Nate I feel deep down cruelty; he finds glee in sticking the knife in. 
Isn’t it nice that these two actors could inspire these emotions in the viewer?! Well done, both of them. 

 

12 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

Yes. I think you make a good point @Schweedie but this is essentially what it boils down to for me too. Yes, Rebecca was professionally petty (and let's face it, Rupert was a deserving "victim") whereas I just found Nate to be personally cruel. And taking things out on people that had done nothing to deserve it. And contrary to Rebecca, he just seemed to get worse and worse as the series progressed. 

But again, I'm a Scorpio so I will hold grudges to my grave. 😁

Interesting and fair answers, thanks, guys! @MicheleinPhilly, I gotta reference the bolded part, though - to be fair, taking things out on people who'd done nothing to deserve is literally exactly what Rebecca did, heh. ETA - (I think the reason why I still hold a tiny grudge from last season is that she never actually apologised to the *team*. She apologised to Ted for hiring him to fail and he forgave her, but her actions had consequences for other people, too.)

I hear you on their progression being different, though, and I think that's probably a key point in why people's reactions to Nate are so strong. Rebecca started at the bottom and the only way was up, and where she ended up was being brilliant, but with Nate we actually get to see the downward trajectory which makes it worse.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Schweedie

[DEL901]

I think part of why we can more easily forgive Rebecca is because she was acting out of hurt and striking back at Rupert through the team,   But she, with a little help from her friends, became appalled at what she was doing and worked hard to turn things around.  Nate, on the other hand just keeps doubling down and randomly lashes out at those he considers beneath him.  It is personal for him.  For her, other than Rupert, she wasn’t deliberately trying to hurt others and when she really understood the ramifications, she changed her ways.   

[Danny Franks]

44 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

Yes. I think you make a good point @Schweedie but this is essentially what it boils down to for me too. Yes, Rebecca was professionally petty (and let's face it, Rupert was a deserving "victim") whereas I just found Nate to be personally cruel. And taking things out on people that had done nothing to deserve it. And contrary to Rebecca, he just seemed to get worse and worse as the series progressed. 

I would also add that the show took great pains to let us know that the bitter, angry and vengeful Rebecca who hired Ted on a lie was not "the real Rebecca." We saw her finding it harder and harder to keep up the cold front, we had Keeley constantly breaking through to her, we had Sassy even say that the real Rebecca is silly and fun.

However, it seems to me that the Nate we've seen in season two is the real Nate. Given a bit of power and the freedom to express himself without immediately being shouted down and mocked, he's an absolute dickbag. Re-watching season two, it's obvious from the very first episode that there's something about him to be concerned about. He's a bully, he's callous, he's dismissive of the feelings of others at almost every turn.

This is a show full of people with dads who have an outsized influence on their lives - Ted, Jamie, Sam, Nate, Rebecca. In season two we saw them all start to move beyond that influence, except for Nate who just projected his lifelong resentment of his disapproving father onto the one man who has been nothing but approving of him.

He may one day learn and grow, but I don't think Ted needs to be the person who helps him do it, and I'm not sure he can be that person.

[MargeGunderson]

What a good question! For me, it’s motivation. Rebecca was trying to hurt Rupert as much as he hurt her. She didn’t seem to have any connection to the people she hurt other than Rupert (and Higgins, who also betrayed her) - she wasn’t friends with Ted or Keeley or even cared about the team before she became the owner. She eventually realized (mostly because people told her) that she was hurting others (and herself) and seemed generally contrite when she apologized to Ted and Higgins.

Nate, on the other hand, got nothing but support from Ted, Beard, and eventually the team, and then turned around and treated them like crap. Ted is responsible for Nate becoming an assistant coach! But Nate lets it all go to his head and turns on everyone that supported him, basically because he thought decided he wasn’t getting the attention and accolades he thought he deserved. Nate had a positive relationship and then chose to blow it up because he’s a jerk. 

[MissLucas]

Rebecca did some pretty shitty things but her main target was always Rupert, everybody else was just collateral damage. Think of getting in the way of a charging bull. But the damage Nate inflicted was personal, he hit where he knew/suspected it would hurt the most. It was more surgical and cruel. That's what will make his redemption arc harder to pull off for the writers.

[Schweedie]

9 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

What a good question! For me, it’s motivation. Rebecca was trying to hurt Rupert as much as he hurt her. She didn’t seem to have any connection to the people she hurt other than Rupert (and Higgins, who also betrayed her) - she wasn’t friends with Ted or Keeley or even cared about the team before she became the owner.

 

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Rebecca did some pretty shitty things but her main target was always Rupert, everybody else was just collateral damage.

 

10 hours ago, DEL901 said:

I think part of why we can more easily forgive Rebecca is because she was acting out of hurt and striking back at Rupert through the team

It's interesting, because for me this is exactly what makes what she did - not worse, because what Nate has been doing is really shitty, but at least equally bad. She hurt people who had done absolutely nothing and she knew that they were innocent, she just didn't care. Like you say, they were just collateral damage. But to me that doesn't make it better in the least. 

She was lucky to have friends who helped her find her way back to herself, but I'm not sure Nate has that. He had Ted, yes, but his whole season 2 journey was about feeling abandoned by Ted. Which is unfair, because Ted has had a lot going on, but Nate was so in his head that he had no idea about that and once he found out he was too far gone to realise what it meant. Just as season one Rebecca wasn't 'real' Rebecca, I'm hoping season 2 Nate isn't the 'real' Nate. I want the sweet Nate who hugged Roy for telling the team to back off of him, who was so happy when the team won that he literally leaped into Ted's arms, who showed up for the gala in a way too big suit and wasn't embarrassed about fixing it, to be the real Nate. I remember when Ted asked him if he was the kind of person who would want someone to tell him if he had a piece of food in his teeth and he was like, "God yes, absolutely" and he meant it. Telling current Nate that would be a no-win situation - he'd hate you for embarrassing him by telling him, but he'd hate you just as much if you hadn't pointed it out because that would obviously mean you wanted to let him embarrass himself in front of everyone else. Somehow he got *more* insecure when he moved upwards.

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

He may one day learn and grow, but I don't think Ted needs to be the person who helps him do it, and I'm not sure he can be that person.

Agreed! 

...I did not realise I had this many thoughts and feelings about Nate, heh.

[DearEvette]

 

21 hours ago, Schweedie said:

For those of you who feel Nate can't/shouldn't be redeemed/forgiven, I'm curious - how do you guys feel about Rebecca, in comparison? Do you feel her redemption after what she did throughout the first season was earned?

I am firmly in the Nate should not be redeemed camp. Mostly because I love the character trajectory of him.  As someone said he went from zero to hero to villain.  And that isn't something you see a lot on tv, especially the progression of it.

But between the two, based on how they react to their own actions and to adversity, I find Rebecca the one more worthy of redemption. Yes, she had a spiteful goal but underneath is all Rebecca is basically a decent person who, as the season went on, we could see she actually did feel remorse about what she was doing and became more and more uncomfortable about it.   Also, as the season went on, Rebecca actually got more and more personal blows.  She was already divorced from Rupert when we meet her, but as we know Rupert kept piling on the humiliations as more and more of his women came to light, and he married the younger Rebecca, and became a father (something we were to infer he denied Rebecca) etc.  But with each new blow, instead of Rebecca doubling down and getting worse and more bitter, she showed more vulnerability and accepted the kindness and sympathy of the people around her.

But with Nate, for me it seemed the inverse was true.  He never seem to feel any remorse for anything he did, but rather glee in the momentary sense of power he seemed to get when he was being cruel.   The last season when he got the chance to tell the team about why they weren't doing well, rather than giving them constructive criticism he took the opportunity to be nasty to them.  At the time I thought it was funny because he was bullied and got the chance to show some fire, but the undertone was mean.  And now in retrospect seeing how he treats Will -- someone who has never done anything to him -- with the same cruelty, you realize that little smile he got after he did it  wasn't about paying some of his own back to his bullies (because not everyone he gave the feedback to bullied him) but because it made him feel good and gave him a sense of power to belittle people.  And unlike Rebecca, Nate's fortunes kept rising as time went on.  He went from bullied kit man, to coach, a member of the Diamond Dogs, received credit for a big win, was gifted with personal secrets, and his plays are given positive affirmation from Ted.  And instead of accepting his good fortune and the regard of the people around him and understanding the trust he was given, he acts dissatisfied  that he didn't get even better recognition or that he didn't get it the  "right" way or he gets jealous of the good fortune of someone else or worse, he betrays a trust.

So for me there is a line in the sand where some things are forgivable (Rebecca's crusade against Rupert) and some things are not (Nate's betrayal of Ted's confidence and trust).

[Domestic Assassin]

I'm open to the idea of a Nate redemption arc if they can make it work, but not at the expense of other storylines.  I think it would take so much to make a redemption believable, but with him working for another team I don't think they have the time.  I'd much rather they spend the time on all the other characters I care about, especially Keeley who will also be working elsewhere next season.

[Juneau Gal]

4 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

I'm open to the idea of a Nate redemption arc if they can make it work, but not at the expense of other storylines.  I think it would take so much to make a redemption believable, but with him working for another team I don't think they have the time.  I'd much rather they spend the time on all the other characters I care about, especially Keeley who will also be working elsewhere next season.

THIS! I do not want too spend time on Nate when there are SO many other storylines to follow.

[Thalia]

On 11/2/2021 at 4:47 PM, MargeGunderson said:

Rebecca was trying to hurt Rupert as much as he hurt her. She didn’t seem to have any connection to the people she hurt other than Rupert (and Higgins, who also betrayed her) - she wasn’t friends with Ted or Keeley or even cared about the team before she became the owner. She eventually realized (mostly because people told her) that she was hurting others (and herself) and seemed generally contrite when she apologized to Ted and Higgins.

I agree.  And remember, she felt a probably justified anger toward Higgins for covering for Rupert's many infidelities.  As for the others, she didn't seem them as real people, just tools in her war with Rupert.   When she picked Ted as the coach all she knew about him was that he'd never coached soccer and that he had a goofy dance style.  But she gradually grew to care about them all over the course of season 1 and changed her mind about it all.  

Nate did the opposite.  He betrayed the only real family it seems he's had. 

[mledawn]

Oh poor Nate! Poor man was laughed at. Poor man was spoken down to. Poor man was teased. 

So?!

I could just be in a foul mood, but I’m tired of giving abusive men a pass. Obviously they have redemption planned for the character - why would Nick sign on for the show just to be the shittiest person on it? But right now I don’t have the energy to invest in Nate.

[Juneau Gal]

3 hours ago, mledawn said:

Oh poor Nate! Poor man was laughed at. Poor man was spoken down to. Poor man was teased. 

So?!

I could just be in a foul mood, but I’m tired of giving abusive men a pass. Obviously they have redemption planned for the character - why would Nick sign on for the show just to be the shittiest person on it? But right now I don’t have the energy to invest in Nate.

Can't love this enough!

[Lamima]

My thoughts on Nate...and first of all I think his portrayal in season 2 is far fetched and not realistic...but I think when he learned that spit thing (that Rebecca advised him on) to bring out the tough assertive take no crap Nate...I think he got stuck there. But that isn't the real him either. I mean who would want to go back to doormat mousey Nate? To be beaten down and ignored? Nobody. He is just lost and confused. And feels he has to bring on the tough Nate at every moment I'm his life where Rebecca only needed it under certain circumstances. Sad that poor Nate was so walked all over in EVERY aspect of his life. Him taking it out on Ted is only because he looked at Ted as THE one and only who NEVER would treat him poorly...but then that one time and it made a big impression. 

I guess I am on an island of one (maybe 2 @Schweedie) who feels bad for Nate and hopes he does redeem himself and find that middle ground (not a doormat but not a pric either). From another doormat here...it is hard to do.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Lamima

[Maysie]

Quote

My thoughts on Nate...and first of all I think his portrayal in season 2 is far fetched and not realistic...but I think when he learned that spit thing (that Rebecca advised him on) to bring out the tough assertive take no crap Nate...I think he got stuck there. But that isn't the real him either. I mean who would want to go back to doormat mousey Nate? To be beaten down and ignored? Nobody. He is just lost and confused. And feels he has to bring on the tough Nate at every moment I'm his life where Rebecca only needed it under certain circumstances. Sad that poor Nate was so walked all over in EVERY aspect of his life. Him taking it out on Ted is only because he looked at Ted as THE one and only who NEVER would treat him poorly...but then that one time and it made a big impression. 

The posts above have said pretty much everything I feel about why Rebecca is worthy of redemption while Nate can pretty much fuck off. But other thoughts:

When you look at it as 12 episodes, the changes in Nate happen fast, but over the course of the season, I can see Nate’s transformation as realistic  (plus we are in episodic tv time). He was promoted and became an integral part of the team quickly, surrounded by famous people who were admired; obviously he wanted some of that, and he struggled to figure out how to get adulation (which he seems to think is the same as respect, which is a big mistake).

Rebecca’s advice was to find his inner badass; she does that by literally pumping herself up mentally and physically to make herself feel big and strong when she is forced to engage with people who minimize her. For me, that was the message she was trying to send to Nate. IMO, he warped it into something bitter and angry and vindictive, seemingly directed at himself, but eventually extending to anyone he feels “deserves” it.

Nate was in no danger of going back to being doormat mousey Nate, although I understand he saw Roy’s presence as a threat and perhaps thought he would go back to being ignored. Yep, Ted was insensitive once or twice, and yep, everyone was over the moon that Roy fucking Kent was back at the team, but the fact that Nate saw those things as a reason to basically shit all over the best people in his life says so much about his character. He’s a Rupert, not a Rebecca.

Finally, I think the only possible way to do any sort of redemption arc for him on the show is via the family route. For most people, family is the safe space. It’s the place we can be our worst selves and risk that they’ll love us and forgive us anyway. We’re all assholes once in a while, but most people are dickish to the people they know love them because there’s a bit of a get out of jail free card. And it sure seems that Nate’s safe space/family is the team, so that was the safest place to act out. However, even family has its limits. I have family I will always love, but there are boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed. I feel like Nate crossed that line with divulging Ted’s panic attacks; I’d forgive him but I would never trust him again.

[Schweedie]

4 hours ago, Lamima said:

I guess I am on an island of one (maybe 2 @Schweedie) who feels bad for Nate and hopes he does redeem himself and find that middle ground (not a doormat but not a pric either). From another doormat here...it is hard to do.

Well, I mean, can't actually say I feel particularly *bad* for Nate as such, because season 2 Nate is for the most part just a dick, heh. But I don't think he's beyond redemption, because I still don't think any of the things he's done are that much worse than what Rebecca did.

Most people seem to agree that Rebecca earned her redemption because she realised she was wrong, regretted it, and sincerely apologised (to Ted and Higgins, at least - I'm still a bit salty about Jamie and the team). Her arc was a straight, one season arc, because it was a simple one - the villain who slowly warmed up and realised the error of her ways. If Nate's journey in season 3 is him realising he was in the wrong, showing remorse and trying to make it right, then I'm all for that.

The show made Jamie my favourite character even after how awful he was in the beginning, I have faith that they can make me like Nate again if that's what they want to do.

[DEL901]

39 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

Well, I mean, can't actually say I feel particularly *bad* for Nate as such, because season 2 Nate is for the most part just a dick, heh. But I don't think he's beyond redemption, because I still don't think any of the things he's done are that much worse than what Rebecca did.

Most people seem to agree that Rebecca earned her redemption because she realised she was wrong, regretted it, and sincerely apologised (to Ted and Higgins, at least - I'm still a bit salty about Jamie and the team). Her arc was a straight, one season arc, because it was a simple one - the villain who slowly warmed up and realised the error of her ways. If Nate's journey in season 3 is him realising he was in the wrong, showing remorse and trying to make it right, then I'm all for that.

The show made Jamie my favourite character even after how awful he was in the beginning, I have faith that they can make me like Nate again if that's what they want to do.

With Rebecca…she also wasn’t really a villain at her core.  Something bad happened (Rupert), she lashed out and turned to the dark side temporarily until the real Rebecca reasserted herself  

The problem with Nate is that even from hints dropped in Season 1 that for all his meekness, another, meaner Nate lurked within and Season 2 brought the inner Nate to the surface.  Redemption, while not impossible, is a much more difficult journey because he believes he is entitled to act the way he is.  Even at her worst, Rebecca still had an inner core of decency…example..after she got those paparazzi photos of Ted and .Keeley, she was easily persuaded not to use them.  

[Schweedie]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

Even at her worst, Rebecca still had an inner core of decency…example..after she got those paparazzi photos of Ted and .Keeley, she was easily persuaded not to use them.  

But she only decided to not use them because Keeley was determined to find out who took them and who hired that person, and Rebecca realised they could be traced back to her if she didn't just stop it from running. Early season 1 Rebecca really wasn't a good person - or she was, deep down, but she certainly didn't behave like one.

[Whimsy]

Some posts were removed due to the fact that the original post had referred to a political party, which is against the rules. The other posts were subsequently removed since they were responding to the removed post. Please remember to not discuss politics. 

[Soobs]

The biggest difference between Rebecca and Nate is that Rebecca apologized and begged Ted and Higgins for their forgiveness. Sure, Keeley forced her hand but the apologies were genuine and were accepted by the wronged parties.

Nate on the other hand doubled and then tripled (by tearing up the sign) down on his behavior with no remorse at all.

We are in good hands with this show, so I think the way forward will be what it should be.

[monakane]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:35 PM, AllyB said:

Is it weird that my absolute favourite part of the episode where Ted apologised to the team for not letting them know what he was going through.

I recently completed watching season 2.  When Ted talks about how leaders need to be honest, I immediately thought of Aaron Rodgers.  It's so true.  If you're in a leadership position, you have to be honest.  It doesn't happen in real life.

[Maysie]

2 hours ago, monakane said:

If you're in a leadership position, you have to be honest.  It doesn't happen in real life.

This is true. I don’t think that leaders necessarily should share everything-sometimes subordinates/teammates don’t need to (or shouldn’t) know everything that’s going on, however what is shared should be truthful. On one hand, Ted certainly had a right to privacy, however if it impacted the team (and I think his issues were starting to do so), he owed them some sort of explanation (not an excuse, which is different IMO). And Ted did what Ted does, which is to be up front about what was going on and acknowledge how it impacted others.

I respect people who tell the truth because it’s often very hard to do and easy to avoid. I don’t mean dropping truth bombs (kind of like Nate’s pep talk), but being honest and saying what needs to be said instead of what people want to hear. 

[Trillium]

18 hours ago, monakane said:

I recently completed watching season 2.  When Ted talks about how leaders need to be honest, I immediately thought of Aaron Rodgers.  It's so true.  If you're in a leadership position, you have to be honest.  It doesn't happen in real life.

I live in Green Bay so to stay on topic I won’t go into a lengthy rant about Aaron. But he’s been a shit leader from the jump. My reaction to his latest stunt was basically Beard’s face when Nate confessed he kissed Keeley. Like just one more shitty thing in the pile. I’d be willing to bet he has watched this show and probably does think he’s a Ted like leader. He not. Never has been. Unfortunately his talent makes people just put up with him. 

 

 

[monakane]

Trillium, thanks for the Roy Kent GIF.  I love that man.  He and his niece are my favorite characters.

[Good Queen Jane]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:10 PM, Whimsy said:

Please remember to discuss politics. 

@Whimsy, I assume you mean "NOT discuss politics."

[Whimsy]

54 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

@Whimsy, I assume you mean "NOT discuss politics."

Oops lol. Yes. Not discuss.  I'll edit.

[endure]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:19 AM, AngieBee1 said:

James Lance said months ago that he was asked back for series 3 and Bill Lawrence confirmed that in an article today. He also said Sarah Niles (Dr. Sharon) is returning. 

-Loved the Diamond Dogs' (minus Nate) enthusiasm about Roy coming to them to vent. 

-I'm glad that we hear Nate's motivation - it means absolutely nothing to me because there is no excuse for his behaviour - but it's nice to see that it's coming from a deep place of hurt, beneath the jealousy and anger and inflated sense of self.  

-Akufo turning on Sam was fantastic.  He called him Yoruba trash. Chineke!

-If Nate would have went to work for Rupert without the other pettiness, I would have been fine with his decision. I'm a believer in what Higgins told Keeley about a good mentor wanting their mentee to move on.  In a better scenario Nate would have taken the confidence that he gained by Ted believing in him and used that to become a gaffer for West Ham.  But him going to the Dark Side and going full Emperor Palpatine is a personal salvo launched against Rebecca and Ted.  And with all of his wretched behaviour this season, I think the worst thing he did was rip the "Believe" sign. 

Truly Nate is such a petty little man.  He perceives Teds well meaning as a personal attack like with the suit….and so on.  I’m not sure it would ever be possible to get through to a person like him, and maybe that’s why Ted never attempted to.

[Aileen]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:21 PM, greencajun said:

How did Beard know that Nate was the leaker?

As far as he knew, only he, Roy, and Nate knew about the panic attack. Roy wouldn’t blather to the press.

[Crs97]

Nate also looked very guilty when the article was mentioned, which surely confirmed Beard’s suspicions.

[MargeGunderson]

1 hour ago, Aileen said:

As far as he knew, only he, Roy, and Nate knew about the panic attack. Roy wouldn’t blather to the press.

And Higgins, but like Beard, he would never say anything to the press.

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

Quote

And it wouldn’t be good for their relationship if Roy was relaxing while Keeley was doing 12 hour days.

I kept thinking of Roy reading the book while Keeley was trying to work.  Imagine six weeks of that. 

IMHO Rebecca didn't know Ted when she hired him - she saw him as a way to get back at Rupert who devastated her.  But once she worked with Ted for a while, she asked forgiveness.  Nate already knew that Ted was a kind upbeat man who gave him a chance, but instead internalized every slight and took several opportunities to humiliate the young kid (can't remember his name, but he's the locker room guy).  Too bad he's being the pawn used by Rupert to piss off Rebecca.  Apparently he learned nothing.  But it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  I don't think it's going to be what we imagine.  

 

[blackwing]

Just finished watching the season.  Add me to the group of those who don't want Nate redeemed.  I've never liked the character at all.  Frankly, he was a nobody who got a lucky break and rose up but then his head got too big.

He started off the season as a locker room attendant.  But he's been around the team enough to understand the game and started making suggestions.  He was lucky that Ted, being clueless about soccer, was open to hearing those suggestions.  I don't think most coaches of an English soccer team would think someone like Nate had worthy ideas.  Someone like Nate at a club under a different coach would be almost completely invisible.

When Nate went on his roast/takedown of all the players, I'm sure he thought it was funny.  But I thought it was a bit mean spirited and unnecessary.  "Colin do you wax your pubes?  Then why are you playing like a Brazilian?"  "Roy your problem is that you are old."  Why?  Then this season, he makes a suggestion and they win and suddenly he's on cloud nine.  He calls himself "Wonder Kid" and then tries to say he meant "wunderkind" when he clearly said "Wonder Kid".  Will makes up a jersey for him with "Wonder Kid" and he loves it.  He constantly checks Twitter every single minute of the day looking for people praising him.  Then he realises he is being made fun of ("no matter what he does, he will always be a loser") and yells at Will and throws the "Wonder Kid" jersey back at him.

To me, Nate is the unpopular kid at school who never had any friends.  He gets taken in by the cool and popular crowd and he starts to think he is cool and popular too.  He starts treating people poorly, and he comes to realise that it's true, even though he is hanging out with the cool and popular people, he will always be that small and unpopular person and nothing he does will ever change it.  That scene at the Greek restaurant where he wanted the window table for his parents and was denied even though it was available.  He ends up calling a favour to get it, and I think it made him realise that no matter how successful he thinks he is at his assistant coach job, he's still something of a joke.

I would be happy if we don't have to see Nate ever again.  But given this is a TV show and the actor is on contract, I have no doubt he will be flying high with Rupert for some portion of the beginning of the season,  Then his team will probably lose to Richmond midway through, he will get sacked, and near the end of the season he will come crawling back to Ted and Rebecca.  Ugh.  I am so not into the redemption of Nate.  

I am glad that Sam decided to stay.  And now I have a real hankering to try some Nigerian food.  Will have to look to see if there are any restaurants in my area that serve West African cuisine.  Ethiopian, there is a lot of, but will have to do some searching.  I remember years ago going to Tusker House in Animal Kingdom at Disney World and the buffet had many African dishes, I wonder how authentic they were.

For next season, I'd like to learn more about some of the secondary players and see them have more storyline.  More Isaac.  But I also want to learn more about Colin, Montclaur, Zoreaux, Bumbercatch.

On 10/8/2021 at 8:14 AM, MerBearStare said:

I wonder, is this the longest/most serious relationship Roy has had? To me, while obviously the vacay was a sweet gesture, IDK, I think it's pretty misguided to spring a six week vacation on someone the day before. Six weeks is a long time, especially when she's just starting her business. Even if the resort has wifi, for me I'm never as productive working from a hotel as I am working from the office (or home office, in my case). So she's either going to have to half-ass her new job or she's going to miss out on most of the vacation even if she's physically there. I definitely don't think this is relationship-ending; they just need to re-calibrate a little based on their new roles. 

 

On 10/8/2021 at 10:58 AM, wlk68 said:

Speaking of Keeley. I don't understand why she couldn't do her emails and video calls from whatever sunny villa Roy rented. Practically EVERYONE works remotely these days. At least give it a try for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, then you can head back home. Roy was so sweet, proud and supportive in this episode. Especially when the magazine came out and didn't have any of the pics of him in it. And I admired his restraint in letting Jamie speak first and then not murdering him.   

I realize that they're at different points in their careers but I don't want to see them break up. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Roy and Keeley are relationship goals. I want a Roy of my very own.       

I hope they don't break up.  But if she is starting her own business, I feel like she could have compromised and taken a two week vacation with him.  What's the rush?  She could have delayed the start of her business for two weeks.   It's not like they need the money, and I don't buy that there's some urgency with the start date.  She's been perfectly content to work for AFC Richmond, I'm sure her backer would understand if she wants a two week break before starting.

On 10/8/2021 at 11:11 AM, DearEvette said:

I kinda call bullshit on Vanity Fair not using a picture of Roy.  No way Keeley being involved with Roy doesn't figure in how her fame is received and wouldn't be something the mag wouldn't use.  Maybe some other magazine, but not Vanity Fair.

I agree they should have included at least one picture of Roy especially after making him do the shoot.  But I can see why they didn't.  The title of her article was something like "Woman on Top" and the portrait they presented is a woman who is independent and got where she is without relying on her man.  As far as fame, sure, Roy is a famous footballer, probably one of the more famous players in England.  But she is pretty famous in her own right, she is/was a model who seems to have been in high demand. 

 

[blackwing]

By the way, soccer question here.  On the second goal that Richmond scored, to tie the game, how was Jamie not offside?  Richmond defender at the back kicked a long ball, Jamie traps it and takes off, and passes to Sam who scores.  

When Jamie gets the ball, there was no defender in between him and the ball.  My kids play travel soccer and I think the definition of offside is all over the place.  Many linesmen seem to call offside if the ball is passed ahead to the striker, and at the moment the striker gets the ball, if there is no defender in front of him/her, that's offsides.  Others will only call offside if at the point where the plane of the ball in the air passes the striker, there is no defender in front.  You need to have either a defender or the ball in between you and the goalkeeper in order to avoid offside.

I THINK the correct call for offside is the plane of the ball.  So thus, the striker could wait for the ball to cross him in the air, make a fast run, and then acquire the ball when it drops to the ground, even if by the time he acquires the ball, there is no defender in front of him.

In this situation, I think Jamie was offside no matter how you interpret the rule.  At the time the ball was kicked by the Richmond defender, there was no defender anywhere near in sight.  And I am pretty sure there was a wide overhead shot of the field so there couldn't have been a defender hidden that we didn't see.

I guess this was clearly more about having Richmond score for storyline, but really, they have a soccer technical expert on staff to make the players look like they are professional players, so you would think they could have noticed this and planted the center back near the front of the box.

[ahisma]

The official rule of offside is that there needs to be two defenders (goalkeeper counts as one) between the attacker and the goal at the moment the ball is passed, not when it is received. So yes, you can dash past the defenders to get to a pass. The linesmen for your travel soccer games are terrible, unless there are special kid rules.

(No penalty called if other team was the one who passed it, if you are even with but not past the defender, if you are just standing offside but don’t get involved in the play, or during throw-in, corner kick, or penalty kick.)

[wlk68]

22 hours ago, blackwing said:

I hope they don't break up.  But if she is starting her own business, I feel like she could have compromised and taken a two week vacation with him.  What's the rush?  She could have delayed the start of her business for two weeks.   It's not like they need the money, and I don't buy that there's some urgency with the start date.  She's been perfectly content to work for AFC Richmond, I'm sure her backer would understand if she wants a two week break before starting.

 

Exactly.  

[HelloooKitty]

1) I love that the doggy had a safety helmet. That was best!

 

2) dear Nate, I hate you. You have a persecution complex. No one was “out to get you” no one was trying to undermine you or wanted you to fail. All of that was you. Your own lack of self confidence, your own feelings of inadequacy. EVERYONE was on your side- especially Ted. And you blew it all up. 
man’s now you are going to fail and fail infamously. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy. 
 

3) well Sam, I think the universe pretty clearly told you that you made the right decision!

 

4) Roy and Keely made me sad. I hope they figure things out and come back together stronger  

 

 

[HelloooKitty]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:21 PM, Schweedie said:

For those of you who feel Nate can't/shouldn't be redeemed/forgiven, I'm curious - how do you guys feel about Rebecca, in comparison? Do you feel her redemption after what she did throughout the first season was earned? I mean, she tried to ruin the lives of *other people* in order to in turn hurt Rupert. (I've realised I still hold a little bit of a grudge even though I love her, heh.)

I think it’s important to note as well that Rebecca made and began executing her plan prior to actually knowing Ted. In fact, it was fact that she began to know him that led her to change her mind/approach. 
 

Nate knew Ted from the beginning and still actively chose to act/work against him simply bc he felt his “feeling” was stepped on. Instead of TALKING to Ted, he decided to be passive aggressive and petty and horrid. 

[Danny Franks]

I rewatched this episode the other day, and I think it's really interesting and satisfying that Nate was carrying on about how he "deserves" to be at Richmond, and is part of the club. Yet his toxic attitudes and desperation to see himself proved right and Ted wrong ended up with him not being able to enjoy their moment of triumph at all.

When everyone else was celebrating he was bitterly storming off and, presumably, quitting his job at the club he loves. It was a nice depiction of cutting off your nose to spite yourself and letting your wrongheaded stance make you miserable.

[kwnyc]

I think Roy & Keeley are the show's OTP, and they will end up together. Roy, of course, has amazing depths that he's just beginning to explore, and Keeley needs someone who sees her as both the sexy girl AND powerful woman. I don't think they'll split up, at least not for good.

And Sam is an amazing 21-year-old man. He's going to be a great leader or activist one day. He sees the world around him and asks what he can do to make it better, like Ted.

As for Rebecca: yes, she is the boss. It'll be interesting to see how the show handles the relationship. But Sam, bless his less than half-her-age heart is an excellent match for her.

It would be nice to see Ted spend more time with Sassy Smurf, and continue his own journey of self-growth. And what IS he going to do about not being able to spend time with his son?

Long may all of them wave, especially Higgins and Dani, and even that toxic little bastard Nate. Though it will have to be a HELLUVA redemption arc.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 10/11/2021 at 8:42 AM, Good Queen Jane said:

And getting a tie last season would have saved the team from relegation. Ties (or draws, if you will) seem to be significant.

I noticed that. Also Ted hates ties and thinks they are unnatural. And even though I have no idea how team standings work, I presume that if Dani had made the penalty kick that killed the mascot in the first episode, they would have won that one and not even needed the tie here.

Also speaking of wins and ties, does the league below the premier league not have any kind of championship playoffs?

On 10/9/2021 at 6:01 PM, rejnel said:

I want Roy and Keeley to stay together, and I also don't worry about it because Bill Lawrence gave us Turk and Carla. A couple that gets together in the first season and has staying power can be magic, and he knows it. 

He also gave us Jules and Greyson from cougar Town which were kind of the same thing. And they were kind of even more like this since before they got together they were both dating idiots who were way too young for them just like Keeley and Jamie.

On 12/9/2021 at 12:49 PM, blackwing said:

 hope they don't break up.  But if she is starting her own business, I feel like she could have compromised and taken a two week vacation with him.  What's the rush?  She could have delayed the start of her business for two weeks.   It's not like they need the money, and I don't buy that there's some urgency with the start date.  

As for the rush I wonder if part of it could be her investors. She said she has already started working which means she has already taken their money. Going off on vacation after taking the money before you have even brought in any money would probably look bad.

Overall I liked this season, although I wish they hadn't kind of glossed over the team's money problems. You had one scene where Higgins is talking about how they are paying Premier league salaries but only making Championship League money. And then they lose their biggest sponsor but it is never really mentioned again. Which is too bad since it could have lead to some good plotlines or boosted some. You could have had Keeley helping to bring in a bunch of new revenue to save the team (which is what I assume happened). You could have had issues with players being cut or getting pay cuts and Rececca and other players having to deal with maybe Sam not getting a pay cut. You could also have them give the coaches a pay cut to pay for Roy which Beard and Ted might not care about but Nate would be pissed about.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[AngieBee1]

Brett Goldstein participated in a writers roundtable and talked about how shocking it is that people hate Nate so much. He feels sympathy for the character and says that they (writers) want to mindful of how they position Nate in series three.  Does Nate disgust me now? Yes. Do I want him redeemed? Absolutely yes. It has to come from him though. It can't be Ted doing the heavy lifting.

[ajsnaves]

Just finished watching the two seasons.  For me the hints about Nate are right there in our first interaction with him, when he runs up and yells at Ted for being on the grass. It may seem minor, but it was his first power move. And they have been laying the groundwork ever since.

But, I still think they can redeem him somewhat. But he cannot come back to the team.  Sometimes, when you burn bridges, they cannot be rebuilt. And that is what he did. He took his bridges down to the supports buried deep in the ground.  But I think when he crashes and burns, and I think he will, he can build himself back up.  If he so chooses.  Or he can continue to blame others for his problems.  Which ever works best for him I guess.

[LADreamr]

It always bothered me that no one called Nate out for how he was treating Will.  There was only that one comment from Beard to him, about how he treated Colin, but not Will.  But I don't think Nate cared about anyone's opinion besides Ted's.  Even Roy, when he didn't care that Nate kissed Keeley.  I think Nate was only bothered by it, because he wants everyone to see him as a big dog, and when they don't, it triggers him.  

Obviously so much of what he sees happening around him is through the lense of being made to feel so small by his father.  So, he sees any (perceived) slight as bigger and more meaningful than it is.  All of this is very human and I totally get it.  

But his redemption is going to need more than an apology.  He needs some major sessions with Dr Sharon to get this really worked out, or not only will he continue to shoot himself in the foot at AFC Richmond (if there was even a time when he'd be there again), he will set himself up for a very unhappy life going forward.

Because if he thinks that twit Rupert is going to do anything but make him feel even worse, he's in for some actual bad treatment.  

[norcalgal]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:52 PM, ahisma said:

The official rule of offside is that there needs to be two defenders (goalkeeper counts as one) between the attacker and the goal at the moment the ball is passed, not when it is received. So yes, you can dash past the defenders to get to a pass. The linesmen for your travel soccer games are terrible, unless there are special kid rules.

(No penalty called if other team was the one who passed it, if you are even with but not past the defender, if you are just standing offside but don’t get involved in the play, or during throw-in, corner kick, or penalty kick.)

I only watch the Premier League, not Championship.  Does the Championship not use VAR?

On 2/1/2022 at 7:45 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Also speaking of wins and ties, does the league below the premier league not have any kind of championship playoffs?

I’m not certain but I think the teams that end up in 3rd and 4th place in the Championship play a 2-leg playoff to see who gets promoted to the Premier League…?