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Who, What, When, Where?!: Miscellaneous Celebrity News 2.0


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It’s as if, what were they all thinking?  So, the scene to film with gun is getting ready to start…..the POLICY of their insurance company should come into play where a Checklist is checked off.  At least three people would be in charge of the safety precautions.  It’s happened before, so it should always be a top priority.  I just don’t get it.  

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What needs to be explained is why Alec would point a prop gun in the direction of the director and the director of photography?  Did it send shrapnel which hit two people, killing one?  He must have been quite close when it fired.  If I recall, different from the Brandon Lee tragedy because Brandon was acting in a scene and the prop gun was fired at him for the purpose of the scene.

Beyond devastating for everyone.  

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10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How in this day is possible for the person in charge of preparing a prop gun to not do it properly?  It’s happened on sets before….very sad and infuriating.  
 

https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/21/alec-baldwin-movie-rust-shooting-gun-blanks-new-mexico-two-injured/

If an actor is unaware the gun is actually loaded and is not intending to harm anyone, I’m not sure how they would be charged, since there is no intent. 

 

If there was any blame it would be the prop person that loaded the gun or the prop master who would have looked it over for safety. Actors are handed guns and told to point and shoot, they never handle the ammo.

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8 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

What needs to be explained is why Alec would point a prop gun in the direction of the director and the director of photography?  Did it send shrapnel which hit two people, killing one?  

I said this in the Celeb Death thread but he could have been shooting it straight at the camera from a straight on angle of him shooting the gun.  OR he was told to shoot in a direction and that's where the DP and director were.

Edited by Irlandesa
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26 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

What needs to be explained is why Alec would point a prop gun in the direction of the director and the director of photography? ... If I recall, different from the Brandon Lee tragedy because Brandon was acting in a scene and the prop gun was fired at him for the purpose of the scene.

 

19 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I said this in the Celeb Death thread but he could have been shooting it straight at the camera from a straight on angle of him shooting the gun.  I believe that's where the DP tends to stand.

Yes, if Baldwin was operating the firearm for a legitimate acting or production purpose, as in the Brandon Lee case, then I don't see any charges against Baldwin. 

However, Alec Baldwin has a history of being hot-tempered. In 2019, he plead guilty to a harassment charge involving a parking dispute during a November 2018 incident where he allegedly punched the other person (New York Times).  And, here's a USA Today article from 2018 summarizing earlier incidents.  So, without more confirmed details, I could easily see a scenario where Baldwin threatened one of the victims with the firearm or otherwise was handling it improperly.

Edited by Just Here
corrected the description about the 2018 incident
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32 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

Well, the CSI in me wants this to be properly and fully investigated for the sake of the family of the woman who died.  There should be plenty of witnesses.  No special treatment - get to the truth.  

If they were filming as is rumored, there will likely be a recording of it.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that there shouldn't be an investigation.  A woman is dead and she should absolutely not be. 

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21 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

If they were filming as is rumored, there will likely be a recording of it.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that there shouldn't be an investigation.  A woman is dead and she should absolutely not be. 

I’m just a skeptic and want this to be an impartial investigation (as we all do). Of course, there will be an investigation, but I fear the influence and power could cloud things.  

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2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How in this day is possible for the person in charge of preparing a prop gun to not do it properly?  It’s happened on sets before….very sad and infuriating.  
 

https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/21/alec-baldwin-movie-rust-shooting-gun-blanks-new-mexico-two-injured/

If an actor is unaware the gun is actually loaded and is not intending to harm anyone, I’m not sure how they would be charged, since there is no intent. 

 

I'm not sure about this particular case involving Mr. Baldwin's shooting having ended one life and seriously injured someone else but I would think that the former tragedy be considered a Manslaughter legally. 

I think Manslaughter is the act of killing another person without malice aforethought but I'm not sure whether either the local prosecutor and/or the deceased's family will consider pressing that particular charge. 

 

Still, I wonder why that gun evidently wasn't secured and/or rendered harmless!

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I think the Laurence Olivier-Merle Oberon film, which cut out most of the book, had a lot to do with that.

I love that movie. I also love the Mia Wasikowska Jane Eyre. Neither should be considered good adaptations but since they cut out the vast majority of the problematic parts, they play as pretty conventional romances. 

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Mel Gibson, ugh. I was very dismayed when it was just announced he will star in The Continental, the prequel to John Wick. They couldn't find anyone else? People are probably lining up begging to be in this but they went to Mel. I can't imagine he will bring anything to the role that can't be accomplished by another actor.

There has to be someone else to hire. That thread was revolting. I hope TPTB can still be persuaded to change the casting. Someone like that doesn't change... certainly with no evidence of wanting to. 

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I don't want to go too far down the legal what-if rabbit hole, but since manslaughter was specifically mentioned above...

For reference, here are the most relevant homicide statutes in New Mexico, straight from an official state website, NMOneSource.com, which has the official annotated version of the state's code.   That website also has texts of official jury instructions (with annotations), which lay out the offenses in somewhat simplified terms.

Once more facts come out in the next few days from reliable sources (such as official statements by law enforcement and/or prosecutors, media interviews of witnesses, et cetera) that should clarify greatly whether Baldwin has any criminal liability.

 

NM Stat § 30-2-5. Excusable homicide.

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Homicide is excusable in the following cases:

A.  when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act, by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent; or

B.  when committed by accident or misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, if no undue advantage is taken, nor any dangerous weapon used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

If Baldwin was just doing his job and behaving properly on set, then, for him, it should be an "excusable homicide", thus his actions were not a crime.  Now, whether other persons have criminal liability, such as those responsible for the preparing the prop firearm, that is a much more involved question.

 

NM Stat § 30-2-3. Manslaughter.

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Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.

A.  Voluntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion.

Whoever commits voluntary manslaughter is guilty of a third degree felony resulting in the death of a human being.

B.  Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.

If Baldwin was (1) using the prop firearm improperly when he knew and/or should have known better, and/or (2) in a manner outside the scope of his job, manslaughter charges could very well be a possibility.

 

NM Stat § 30-2-1.  Murder.

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A.  Murder in the first degree is the killing of one human being by another without lawful justification or excuse, by any of the means with which death may be caused:

(1)       by any kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated killing;
(2)       in the commission of or attempt to commit any felony; or
(3)       by any act greatly dangerous to the lives of others, indicating a depraved mind regardless of human life.

Whoever commits murder in the first degree is guilty of a capital felony.

B.  Unless he is acting upon sufficient provocation, upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion, a person who kills another human being without lawful justification or excuse commits murder in the second degree if in performing the acts which cause the death he knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another.

Murder in the second degree is a lesser included offense of the crime of murder in the first degree.

Whoever commits murder in the second degree is guilty of a second degree felony resulting in the death of a human being.

Unless the facts are particularly egregious, which seems highly improbable, any murder charge for any possible defendant should be highly unlikely.

 

Someone actually knowledgeable in New Mexico's law and procedure could give a more detailed analysis of the criminal and civil liabilities that Baldwin and others who may be involved could face.  I'll be on the lookout for news articles and blog posts with useful analysis, especially from New Mexican attorneys.

Edited by Just Here
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7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

How in this day is possible for the person in charge of preparing a prop gun to not do it properly?  It’s happened on sets before….very sad and infuriating.  
https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/21/alec-baldwin-movie-rust-shooting-gun-blanks-new-mexico-two-injured/

If an actor is unaware the gun is actually loaded and is not intending to harm anyone, I’m not sure how they would be charged, since there is no intent. 

From the Deadline article:

The very first safety bulletin adopted by the Industrywide Labor-Management Safety Committee dealt with the dangers of blank ammunition. “Blanks can kill,” the bulletin says. “Treat all firearms as though they are loaded.”

 

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Prayers for the victims’ families.  Until any further details are released I keep thinking any liability attributed to Alec would fall more under his overall producer status than his handling of the gun during filming.  
 

Tragic story.

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2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

To get the right effect, you have to have SOMETHING in the gun to be expelled by the force of the explosive.   I am not sure you can get that with special effects in post production.   

I'm very surprised to learn that the industry hasn't figured out a way to have safer prop guns.

Are you telling me that the guns Hollywood uses for films/etc. are the same as any other gun except they use blanks?

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Just my two cents, but I would have expected that in this day and age, when effects can create believable animals out of nothing and de-age actors by 30 years, someone would have come up with an effect that simulates gun being fired without the need to use any ammunition.

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14 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Just my two cents, but I would have expected that in this day and age, when effects can create believable animals out of nothing and de-age actors by 30 years, someone would have come up with an effect that simulates gun being fired without the need to use any ammunition.

Money. It's cheaper to just shoot the gun.

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11 minutes ago, bobalina said:

Money. It's cheaper to just shoot the gun.

Even factoring in those pesky insurance payoffs to compensate the deceased's survivors and the other victim's hospitalization?

 Somehow, I think they'd have paid a far less dear price had they attempted to CGI a 'shot' instead of having any kind of ammo in a firearm for a prop.

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1 hour ago, Trini said:

Are you telling me that the guns Hollywood uses for films/etc. are the same as any other gun except they use blanks?

Yes.   That's how a gun works -- an explosion propels the bullet or blank whichever  you are using through the barrel.   If you don't have something to propel the projectile it doesn't go anywhere.   There has to be some force put on it.   

17 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Even factoring in those pesky insurance payoffs to compensate the deceased's survivors and the other victim's hospitalization?

 Somehow, I think they'd have paid a far less dear price had they attempted to CGI a 'shot' instead of having any kind of ammo in a firearm for a prop.

How many times does this happen on a set?    Statistically speaking it is cheaper to have the insurance in case something goes wrong than pay for the CGI.   CGI is EXPENSIVE.   That little yellow line on the football field showing the 1st down?   Yeah, several K.   And that's just a freaking line superimposed over the field.

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How many times has this happened?  A few insurance payouts averaged over all the movies being made that utilize a gun probably is cheaper than the CGI. [or what merylinkid said above].

I recall Christopher Walken saying that in one movie he made, TPTB wanted a reaction from his co-stars each time he touched them; they fired a gun offscreen each time to capture the flinch on film.  I don’t doubt the industry will still want the “authentic” reaction regardless of this outcome.

Edited by Crs97
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1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Even factoring in those pesky insurance payoffs to compensate the deceased's survivors and the other victim's hospitalization?

 Somehow, I think they'd have paid a far less dear price had they attempted to CGI a 'shot' instead of having any kind of ammo in a firearm for a prop.

Actually the last time was 1993. This movie is, according to various sources, budgeted at around $6,000,000. Not much left over after salaries, costumes and other basic production costs.

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If it turns out that Alec Baldwin didn't do anything wrong and handled the gun exactly as directed regarding safety, and it was a prop person who did something wrong, then I hope he sues the crap out of the prop person for putting him in this horrible position.

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14 hours ago, Kitty Redstone said:

How awful!  I don't understand why these prop guns have to be loaded with anything.  Can't the sound and even the visual effect of gunfire be edited in afterwards?

It wouldn't look the same.  Now maybe that shouldn't be a consideration, but that's a different kind of discussion.

14 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

If it turns out that Alec Baldwin didn't do anything wrong and handled the gun exactly as directed regarding safety, and it was a prop person who did something wrong, then I hope he sues the crap out of the prop person for putting him in this horrible position.

It's entirely possible that no one did anything wrong, and he was just too close by accident.  The force from the expulsion of the wadding can by very dangerous if it hits the wrong spot.  Obviously at this point we don't really know what happened.  I'm waiting for the investigation to be finished before I make any assumptions.  But this is truly a tragedy for all involved.

There are several good articles out there explaining how accidents can happen with prop guns.  This is one, but there are others:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59006905

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2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Just my two cents, but I would have expected that in this day and age, when effects can create believable animals out of nothing and de-age actors by 30 years, someone would have come up with an effect that simulates gun being fired without the need to use any ammunition.

CGI is expensive as hell and often still doesn't look real.  A lawsuit once every couple of decades costs a lot less, even factoring in the price of insurance.  Not saying that is the right way to look at it, but that's certainly how studios do.

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If it turns out that Alec Baldwin didn't do anything wrong and handled the gun exactly as directed regarding safety, and it was a prop person who did something wrong, then I hope he sues the crap out of the prop person for putting him in this horrible position.

Disagree. It's not his place. If the family of the deceased wishes to act, that's their choice to make.

I'm not seeing that screenshot in the Dlisted article but it fits my personal bias that problems tend to start at the top of the hierarchy and not at the bottom.

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2 hours ago, bobalina said:

Actually the last time was 1993. This movie is, according to various sources, budgeted at around $6,000,000. Not much left over after salaries, costumes and other basic production costs.

Why is Alec Baldwin doing a movie with a $6 million dollar budget. I mean I don't expect him to be the lead in a Marvel movie or something, but it shouldn't be that hard for him to get a lead in a tv series. The Tina Fey show Mr. Mayor was originally written with Baldwin as the lead. So why is he doing super low budget stuff like this? Is it a favour to someone? Does he owe the mob a bunch of money?

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He has 7 children, for one.  He also helped create the story himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film)

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Development[edit]

In May 2020, it was announced that Alec Baldwin would produce and star in Rust, a Western based on a story he created with writer and director Joel Souza.[1] Baldwin told The Hollywood Reporter that he was elated to work with Souza after missing the opportunity to star in Crown Vic (2019). He compared the screenplay to the 1992 film Unforgiven, and said it was inspired by a true story. When asked about his gun slinging and horse riding skills, he said, "They're always at the ready. I’m an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume — my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay — is all right at my fingertips at all times."[2] In September 2021, Travis Fimmel, Brady Noon, and Frances Fisher joined the cast.[3] In October, Jensen Ackles was cast and filming began in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area.[4][5][6]

 

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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10 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Why is Alec Baldwin doing a movie with a $6 million dollar budget. I mean I don't expect him to be the lead in a Marvel movie or something, but it shouldn't be that hard for him to get a lead in a tv series. The Tina Fey show Mr. Mayor was originally written with Baldwin as the lead. So why is he doing super low budget stuff like this? Is it a favour to someone? Does he owe the mob a bunch of money?

Because he wanted to? Plenty of bigger names will agree to lower budget indie films if they think it’s a good part. Baldwin has compared this movie to Unforgiven and was a producer on Crown Vic with the same writer/producer. 

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2 hours ago, anna0852 said:

If it turns out that Alec Baldwin didn't do anything wrong and handled the gun exactly as directed regarding safety, and it was a prop person who did something wrong, then I hope he sues the crap out of the prop person for putting him in this horrible position.

I was listening to an interview with a professional armorer who has worked on dozens of Hollywood films.  As a producer, Alec can be liable, as well as the armorer/prop master and the AD, since the AD's job is to ensure safety on set.  This guy said that he's shocked that Alec was involved because he's worked with him more than once and he was always very attentive and serious about gun safety.  He's dumbfounded as to how something like this could happen.  Since we're hearing now that people were walking off of the set because of safety issues, I'm wouldn't be surprised if we see all three of the people I mentioned charged and/or fined. 

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2 hours ago, NowVoyager said:

Very preliminary thought.   But if they were using non union crew it is HIGHLY possible that whoever was responsible for that prop gun didn't have the right training.   

They rushing too much in production post Covid.   This isn't the only production with the crew bringing up safety concerns.   Its why the IATSE is threatening to strike (or already did I haven't kept up)

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1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

I'm not seeing that screenshot in the Dlisted article but it fits my personal bias that problems tend to start at the top of the hierarchy and not at the bottom.

The screenshot was posted in the comments, by someone who purports to be an IATSE member and said that this text message is being posted in a few Facebook IATSE-related groups.

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It makes me both sad and angry that this woman's death is considered a better option then spending more money to get CGI. These people are making a fucking movie, not saving an oppressed people from tyrany. One death is one too many. It is all just such a tragic and completely unavoidable accident if studios weren't so fucking greedy. 

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One death is one too many doesn't take into account the fact that this is a fluke accident. It was much, much more likely that someone working on that movie would die in a car accident on their way to the studio. We don't suggest that they should find a transportation option (say, building a hotel on site so that they don't have to commute) to stop any chance that that happen. 

Every day we all take risks that we consider to be reasonable. We cannot take all of the risk out of any situation ever and most of us would not want to live the life that would result. Now, if there was negligence on site that caused this, that would and should be actionable. The deaths on the Twilight Zone movie are an instance where gross negligence should have resulted in massive fines, if not jail time. 

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