S01.E05: Trial By Fire

[formerlyfreedom]

On the first day of the trial, the prosecution presents shocking evidence, while the defense casts doubt on the police investigation. Henry divulges a secret to Grace.

Airing Sunday, November 22, 2020.

[kay1864]

😳

 I guess Henry doesn’t play his violin in the school orchestra.

[Norma Desmond]

So, Henry is a sociopath just like his dad, and he did it. Damn.

 

[Chaos Theory]

I continue to really enjoy this show.  I am kinda sorry it will be over next week.  The defense lawyer lady was really good tearing apart the prosecution’s case.   I thought her scenes with the Detectuve were really well done.   

I am not surprised at all that the show is going to throw shade on Henry.   If anyone has reason to kill Elena it might be him.  He might have realized his father loved Elena and just wanted his family back.

I will be very disappointed if Lily Rabe doesn’t have more to do.   She did have a great line describing Johnathin “in essence his own mother identified him as a sociopath.”   

[kay1864]

 So we’re to assume that when Grace and Henry moved their stuff to her dad‘s place, the hammer was in a box marked “Henry’s personal stuff – do not open“?

21 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

He might have realized his father loved Elena and just wanted his family back.

Agreed.  It was no accident that flashback scene was shown to us this late in the game.  Not to mention Henry at dinner going from “we’re going to win, right?” to “so we can be a family again, right?“

 And if it is Henry, Grace, as a psychiatrist, must realize that he might be incurable.  Which means they can never be a family again.  If, that is, it is Henry.

[RedDelicious]

I still think Jonathan did it and now I think Henry is covering for him. They teased it out through the episode. They said it - he worships his father and would do anything for him (like hide the murder weapon) and seemingly anything to keep his family together. 

[kay1864]

5 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

like hide the murder weapon

 Unless Henry is hiding his grandfather’s murder weapon. Or, of course, his own.

 Still… Really really bad hiding place.

[susannot]

I thought the Katie the Kitten scene between Nicole and Hugh was very poorly acted.

Who was the actress who played Jonathan's mother? She looked very familiar.

 

If the little boy Henry turns out to be the killer I will absolutely hate this show. How awful.  I expect it to end with either his mother or father taking the rap and going to prison for him. I would.  He is 10 years old for Chist's sake.

[Ashforth]

So Jonathan is one sick ticket.

[LilaFowler]

Shades of the OJ Simpson trial here, painting the NYPD as having an agenda and being incompetent. Then you have the lead detective lying under cross examination (why did he do that?). I'm unimpressed with the prosecutor's performance in this trial so far. Was she unaware of Grace's stroll through Harlem on the night of the murder? The whole thing is so bizarre. I've watched a lot of Law & Order: Jack McCoy would never.

Grace pointedly ignoring Franklin's question about whether or not trauma like that would make someone more compassionate or more psychotic.

Henry certainly looks the murderer now, hiding the murder weapon. Nothing has been straightforward in this series so I'm expecting something else to be revealed next week.

[txhorns79]

I appreciated Hayley destroying Detective Mendoza on the stand.  To me, he's been so smug throughout the episodes, it was nice to see him taken down a peg.  That's why you pay for the best for your criminal trial.

[Enigma X]

Although I am interested to find out whodunit, this series was really poorly executed.

[Norma Desmond]

25 minutes ago, susannot said:

I thought the Katie the Kitten scene between Nicole and Hugh was very poorly acted.

Yes.  Maybe because Jonathan was acting to fake regret and sadness over his sister's death, which he hadn't, according to his mother.

 

I think most of what I thought was Hugh's poor acting is actually because Jonathan's a sociopath that fakes feelings. That's why his confession that he loved Elena was so cringe-y and seemed so fake.

 

 

 

[kendi]

Sylvia's waving to the prosecutor in the court room and then hugging Grace...yeah, that's not weird at all.

[kay1864]

9 minutes ago, kendi said:

Sylvia's waving to the prosecutor in the court room

Yep, weird.  Not exactly the venue for a “Hey girl, hey”

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, RedDelicious said:

I still think Jonathan did it and now I think Henry is covering for him. They teased it out through the episode. They said it - he worships his father and would do anything for him (like hide the murder weapon) and seemingly anything to keep his family together. 

Exactly what I’ve been thinking.

[Broderbits]

1 hour ago, susannot said:

Who was the actress who played Jonathan's mother? She looked very familiar.

That was British actress Rosemary Harris.

[Norma Desmond]

1 minute ago, Broderbits said:

That was British actress Rosemary Harris.

Who looks pretty incredible for 93.

[Kiss my mutt]

I think Grace will implicate Jonathan to protect her son even if he didn’t do it since she doesn’t want a sociopath having any influence on her son anymore.  It’s pointing to Henry in so many obvious ways that it might be a misdirect by the writer so they can add more “shock value” to next episode. He could very well be hiding it for his dad or granddad. 
I’m still holding out for Sylvia doing it. That wave to the prosecutor was so odd!

The facetime scene was crazy when we learned about Katie. I thought the story about the dog was a lie but I was not expecting it was his sister. 
I liked fernando’s and Hayley’s court scene. I think as controlled and experienced she is, I think this reaction threw her a bit. 
 

The hour goes by so fast!

[LoveLeigh]

So Henry did it? The murder weapon was shown in his violin case. 

[TomGirl]

I can’t believe Henry as the murderer.  It doesn’t fit at all with what we’ve been shown of his personality, character or behavior.

[Ashforth]

The courtroom stuff is the usual bullshit. A Judge would not allow a graphic murder photo to be displayed without warning the victim's family in advance, particularly if the victim's young child was in the courtroom. A detective would not testify about the science of DNA. A high powered criminal defense attorney prepares her client who is accused of murder for weeks in advance of testimony (if any, because it is always stupid for a criminal defendant to testify) not the night before.

I have a feeling that I'm going to be pissed off at the end of this. 

So the "dog story" that sounded like a total fiction made up on the spot when Grace told it to Henry was true - except the dog was Jonathan's 4 year old sister. Jonathan has a meltdown at a fancy restaurant to confess the sister story to Grace. Jonathan's mother tells Grace that he is a sociopath.

I thought Kidman's acting was especially bad in this one. The scene on the balcony with Daddy was such a vanity shot that it was ridiculous.

I'm going out on a limb that Henry found and hid the murder weapon but is not the killer. My money is on Grace again now, but why wouldn't she have thrown the hammer away on her long walk home after bludgeoning Elena to death? Well, she hasn't proven to be a mental giant thus far.

Grace or Jonathan may or may not may have committed the murder. Looks like Sylvia probably didn't, but I think there is still a strong possibility that she did, otherwise I don't understand her recent prominence. Or it could be Daddy, or Henry, or Fernando, or the school principal, or Jonathan's former colleague, or the janitor in her building, or a killer unicorn. Maybe Elena was so crazy that she sculpted a suicide-made-to-look-like-murder machine. 🤨

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ashforth

[Mackey]

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

Grace pointedly ignoring Franklin's question about whether or not trauma like that would make someone more compassionate or more psychotic.

Franklin should have said “psychopathic” rather than “psychotic.”  I’m trying to decide if this was clever writing or poor writing. Yes, people confuse these terms often (clever writing) but Grace is a psychologist and one might think that her dad would have picked up a few things over dinner and also he’s well educated (poor writing.)

[LoveLeigh]

26 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I'm going out on a limb that Henry found and hid the murder weapon but is not the killer. My money is on Grace again now, but why wouldn't she have thrown the hammer away on her long walk home after bludgeoning Elena to death? Well, she hasn't proven to be a mental giant thus far.

Wouldn't the detectives and cops who searched Grace's apartment so throughly have looked in that violin case or was it in school with Henry at that time and if so, how did his violin fit into the case? Was Henry carrying the murder weapon around all that time in school? 

[Ashforth]

2 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Wouldn't the detectives and cops who searched Grace's apartment so throughly have looked in that violin case or was it in school with Henry at that time and if so, how did his violin fit into the case? Was Henry carrying the murder weapon around all that time in school? 

Such good questions.

[LoveLeigh]

33 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Maybe Elena was so crazy that she sculpted a suicide-made-to-look-like-murder machine. 🤨

I did think at one time that Elena committed suicide by bludgeoning herself to death but after one blow she would be too gone to turn her own head into the condition in which it was found. 

Did Jonathan do it and frame his own son so he would get off and know Henry as a minor would not do time? 

Edited November 23, 2020 by DakotaLavender

[buttersister]

Who the hell cleaned the blood and brain off that hammer?

And how did this big-time psychiatrist not know she was married to a sociopath? Fugue state or fucking stupid?

Hard to tell because her face can't move enough to give me a clue.

[Razzberry]

Grace still hasn't asked Jonathan about the fake conference.

If you haven't spoken to daughter-in-law for 10 years,  maybe correcting her grammar isn't the best way to start off.

Fernando home alone with sleeping child is not even an alibi.

The court case is ridiculous.

Henry saw his father talking to Elena outside the school. BFD

If you're hounded by press and on trial for a heinous murder,  eat meals at home.

I don't think Katie the Kitten was struck by a car.

Jonathan is setting up his own kid.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Razzberry

[hoodooznoodooz]

(paraphrasing:)

Couldn’t the semen, saliva and skin DNA simply be the result of the defendant having sex with Elena Alvez?

Yeah... But not the crushed skull.

[kay1864]

6 hours ago, Ashforth said:

A Judge would not allow a graphic murder photo to be displayed without warning the victim's family in advance, particularly if the victim's young child was in the courtroom.

Or warning the jury of its graphic nature. That scene was ridiculous.

[cardigirl]

A friend convinced me to catch up on this show.  And generally, I love Hugh Grant.  But Nicole's idea of reacting to anything is to stare at the camera and lick her lips or stick out her tongue and after awhile I was just yelling at the teevee. 

And the courtroom scenes were so laughable. Grace's friend, the lawyer, who walks into the courtroom while the D.A. is questioning someone and then WAVES at her as she sits down?  Okay, show. That happens in court.  Especially in criminal cases. 

Grace walking all over New York and not being bothered by the press, but when she shows up at school, there's a full frenzy going on, and it's all so fakish. 

 

I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my friendship with the friend that recommended this to me. Not really caring who killed the poor woman, but I kind of hope Grace did it.  LOL. 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by cardigirl

[grawlix]

4 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

(paraphrasing:)

Couldn’t the semen, saliva and skin DNA simply be the result of the defendant having sex with Elena Alvez?

Yeah... But not the crushed skull.

Maybe this is part of Haley's "muck" strategy.  Elena's death is the unfortunate result of "rough but consensual sex".    Elena simply forgot to use her safe word.

[Johnny Dollar]

I guess Henry would rather be in the percussion section of the school orchestra and not strings. 

[Bluesky]

I’m disappointed in how much the attorney sucks.  Her whataboutism, pointing the finger at others wouldn’t work.  And her telling her clients it’s all circumstantial is ridiculous.  First, DNA evidence is not circumstantial.  Second people are convicted of murder with only circumstantial evidence all the time.  
I can understand why people thought the kid did it but I can’t imagine him having the strength to do that type of damage.  

[BingeyKohan]

Is next week the finale? There is a lot to resolve - or, more likely, we won't get resolution on a lot of things. If Jonathan and Grace both take the stand then I guess they'll get pressed on the fake Cleveland trip (J) and her real dynamic with Elena (G).

Unless she heavily factors into flashbacks next week it's very strange how little time or energy were given to making Elena feel like a real person. There wasn't even much point in making her an artist.

[hershey4]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's Grace's blond friend, Sylvia(?) that did it.  I think she was the "one other affair" that Jonathan referred to, and it has something to do with that.  Because, otherwise, what was the point in bringing up that he had one other affair? Or, maybe Sylvia had an affair with Elena and was jealous, and killed her in a fit of rage, and then decided to frame Jonathan. She picked Henry up from school, didn't she? So she could have hid the murder weapon in his violin case.  I haven't worked out exactly how or why, but I'm putting my money on Syliva.

[Milburn Stone]

If it is Henry (and I don't think it is), it would make sense, in that traits such as sociopathy are no doubt inherited. All psychological traits are heritable. For that matter, Jonathan probably inherited his sociopathy from his grammar Nazi mother.

Also, forget about Elena's family having to see that photo of her bludgeoned face, I didn't need to see that. (Or the other time they flashed it.) I hope I will forget it but I'm not sure I will. Really, what is the necessity to display that in a show that is not otherwise in the horror genre? What about "Elena was bludgeoned 11 times with a sculptor's hammer" is not sufficient in and of itself to tell us what happened?

[rocketinu]

That food served to them in that fancy smancy restaurant looked incredible and they all walked away from it - now THAT is unbelievable.

[Ashforth]

 

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

A friend convinced me to catch up on this show.  And generally, I love Hugh Grant.  But Nicole's idea of reacting to anything is to stare at the camera and lick her lips or stick out her tongue and after awhile I was just yelling at the teevee. 

And the courtroom scenes were so laughable. Grace's friend, the lawyer, who walks into the courtroom while the D.A. is questioning someone and then WAVES at her as she sits down?  Okay, show. That happens in court.  Especially in criminal cases. 

Grace walking all over New York and not being bothered by the press, but when she shows up at school, there's a full frenzy going on, and it's all so fakish. 

I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my friendship with the friend that recommended this to me. Not really caring who killed the poor woman, but I kind of hope Grace did it.  LOL. 

Love your whole post. I have to admit that for a hot second I thought someone had killed your poor-tv-taste friend and you didn't care. I guess I have a little Jonathan lurking around inside me.

3 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I’m disappointed in how much the attorney sucks.  Her whataboutism, pointing the finger at others wouldn’t work.  And her telling her clients it’s all circumstantial is ridiculous.  First, DNA evidence is not circumstantial.  Second people are convicted of murder with only circumstantial evidence all the time.  
I can understand why people thought the kid did it but I can’t imagine him having the strength to do that type of damage.  

Her job is to sell reasonable doubt, so pointing the finger at other potential killers and undermining confidence in circumstantial evidence are exactly what she would and should do. 

Jonathan's DNA at the crime scene proves that he was there, but not that he killed her, so in that regard, it is circumstantial evidence. And yes, many or most criminal convictions are based on circumstantial evidence, because that's what there is. Most crimes aren't captured on camera or audio (yet, I guess more and more will be as people use Alexas and Ring doorbells and other technology in their homes and businesses). 

3 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Is next week the finale? There is a lot to resolve - or, more likely, we won't get resolution on a lot of things. If Jonathan and Grace both take the stand then I guess they'll get pressed on the fake Cleveland trip (J) and her real dynamic with Elena (G).

Unless she heavily factors into flashbacks next week it's very strange how little time or energy were given to making Elena feel like a real person. There wasn't even much point in making her an artist.

I agree about the prospect of satisfying answers to lingering questions. I'd bet that a lot of them are just ignored.

You captured my thoughts about the development of the character of Elena. There was so much there to work with, but she was left one-dimensional.

[DangerousMinds]

39 minutes ago, hershey4 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's Grace's blond friend, Sylvia(?) that did it.  I think she was the "one other affair" that Jonathan referred to, and it has something to do with that.  Because, otherwise, what was the point in bringing up that he had one other affair? Or, maybe Sylvia had an affair with Elena and was jealous, and killed her in a fit of rage, and then decided to frame Jonathan. She picked Henry up from school, didn't she? So she could have hid the murder weapon in his violin case.  I haven't worked out exactly how or why, but I'm putting my money on Syliva.

He said he had a one night stand, not necessarily an “affair.” I think that could have happened with some complete stranger. But we shall see.

28 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

If it is Henry (and I don't think it is), it would make sense, in that traits such as sociopathy are no doubt inherited. All psychological traits are heritable. For that matter, Jonathan probably inherited his sociopathy from his grammar Nazi mother.

Also, forget about Elena's family having to see that photo of her bludgeoned face, I didn't need to see that. (Or the other time they flashed it.) I hope I will forget it but I'm not sure I will. Really, what is the necessity to display that in a show that is not otherwise in the horror genre? What about "Elena was bludgeoned 11 times with a sculptor's hammer" is not sufficient in and of itself to tell us what happened?

Am I the only one who appreciates having my grammar corrected? I learned something there! 🤣 but seriously, I’d rather know the correct way to say things than to continue making the same errors .

[iMonrey]

Quote

If the little boy Henry turns out to be the killer I will absolutely hate this show. How awful.  I expect it to end with either his mother or father taking the rap and going to prison for him. I would.  He is 10 years old for Chist's sake.

I'm sort of dreading that kind of ending too. I hate sitting through something for six weeks and then not getting any definitive answers so I just hope it's solved one way or another.

Quote

I appreciated Hayley destroying Detective Mendoza on the stand.  To me, he's been so smug throughout the episodes, it was nice to see him taken down a peg.  That's why you pay for the best for your criminal trial.

Same! I want her to be my lawyer. You know . . . the next time I murder someone.

Quote

Maybe Elena was so crazy that she sculpted a suicide-made-to-look-like-murder machine. 

I'm starting to wonder if it's even her. The face was smashed beyond recognition and she was id'd by her husband. Maybe she/they faked her death to frame Jonathan. Have they used DNA testing to confirm it's actually Elena's body?

[spaceghostess]

14 hours ago, susannot said:

If the little boy Henry turns out to be the killer I will absolutely hate this show. How awful.  I expect it to end with either his mother or father taking the rap and going to prison for him. I would.  He is 10 years old for Chist's sake.

Henry’s not 10 — I believe it was established in a prior episode that he’s 13? It’s actually Miguel who’s 10,  but I take your point that a kid being the murderer would be horrible.

[MerBearHou]

I find nothing to be compelling whatsoever about Elena so for Jonathan to say he loved her quite madly, well, I don't get it.  She was bizarre and kind of odd-looking, if you ask me.  He lusted for her perhaps, but loved -- ugh no.

Nicole's look is so distracting to me -- especially her mouth -- that I find it hard to watch her.  She is not doing a great job in this series IMO.  

Give me a break -- frequently walking around NYC at night by herself at all hours -- what in the world??

[spaceghostess]

5 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Or warning the jury of its graphic nature. That scene was ridiculous.

I still can’t figure out why anybody in this show—including attorneys—thinks it’s a good idea to bring children of suspects and/or victims to a murder trial. You’re not even supposed to bring your kids into family court during divorce proceedings. People sometimes do if they can’t find a sitter, but everyone realizes you should avoid it if at all possible.

[Cheyanne11]

1 hour ago, hershey4 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's Grace's blond friend, Sylvia(?) that did it.  I think she was the "one other affair" that Jonathan referred to, and it has something to do with that.  Because, otherwise, what was the point in bringing up that he had one other affair?

Jonathan *claimed* it was a one night stand, not an ongoing affair, but we have only his unreliable word on that.  I was thinking along the above lines, too, and that his earlier thought of "maybe someone followed me and killed Elena out of jealousy" was true.  However, with the murder weapon in Henry's violin case, I'm rethinking that.  So now I'm back to "who knows!"

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

grammar Nazi mother.

"Hi, daughter-in-law I haven't spoken to or seen in over a decade.  Let me immediately correct your grammar."  

[spaceghostess]

4 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I’m disappointed in how much the attorney sucks.  Her whataboutism, pointing the finger at others wouldn’t work.  And her telling her clients it’s all circumstantial is ridiculous.  First, DNA evidence is not circumstantial.  Second people are convicted of murder with only circumstantial evidence all the time.  
I can understand why people thought the kid did it but I can’t imagine him having the strength to do that type of damage.  

I think Henry stands as a suspect because in this case, the hammer does most of the work. It’s a pretty good murder weapon for a whodunit if you want to be able to write in suspects of all shapes and sizes. It only takes one well-aimed swing of that sucker to kill someone, leaving the killer spare time to smash them to bits (not to be gross, but there you go).

Edited November 23, 2020 by spaceghostess

[bigmag]

I agree with the poster above who asked who cleaned all the blood and brain off the hammer.  And regardless of who the murderer is, he/she would have had a god-awful mess of blood, brains, skin and bone fragments splattered all over their person, their clothes, their hair.  No way could somebody clean that off completely unless they stripped at the studio/apartment and showered to the max.  And then wore what home?

 

[Ashforth]

20 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I still can’t figure out why anybody in this show—including attorneys—thinks it’s a good idea to bring children of suspects and/or victims to a murder trial. 

For the drama, dahling. The DRAMA!

[spaceghostess]

15 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 Unless Henry is hiding his grandfather’s murder weapon. Or, of course, his own.

 Still… Really really bad hiding place.

Yes, and yes. Grandpa Sutherland and his eyebrows have been at the top of my suspects list for quite some time. Whether or not Henry’s the killer or covering for his dad,  I can’t for the life of me figure out how/why he would use the violin case to hide the hammer. You can’t fit the violin AND the hammer in there, which means he’d have to take the hammer out and hide it elsewhere whenever he has a violin lesson, so this makes zero sense other than it’s kind of a cool set piece/reveal. Something else that I found weird was the conversation in the restaurant (setting aside the preposterous notion that anybody, especially rich people who value their PRIVACY [pronounced PRIV-acy in the British fashion] would go out to eat under these particular circumstances), when Jonathan said Grace told him Henry had seen him outside the school with Elena, and Jonathan was like, “I’m so sorry you (Henry) had to witness that.” We (and Grace) know, per Henry, that Jonathan saw him seeing them. So either Henry or Jonathan is lying about that whole scene, but neither contradicted the other’s story in the restaurant.

And not to be That Guy, but my willing suspension of disbelief is always strained when a killer who has easy access to any number of waterways keeps the murder weapon lying around the house.

[LoveLeigh]

This episode. I am laughing actually. Prior to this episode most have loved this show and been almost obsessed with it including me. But this episode took a sharp turn and I am seeing many who are poking at this episode for many reasons. 

It is true that no judge would not have warned the spectators about the photos they were going to show. And the weapon being in Henry's violin case is sort of filled with holes. I could go on about why this episode was preposterous (including the insertion of the Katie subplot) but what remains for me is this:

This series, THE UNDOING, should have been a two hour made for HBO movie. It was dragged out too long and I feel it deteriorated into some silly soap opera. If Henry actually did it I would be shocked. He killed Elena to keep his parents together? Henry is a sociopath? Why were there no signs? 

I think there are more twists to come. I hope so.