S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two

[Cementhead]

1 hour ago, himela said:

I'm tired of Randall as well. I am way more interested to see what his relationship with Beth and the girls is than all this drama with his siblings and his dad and his bio dad and so on. I want to see his everyday life with his family, how the girls are growing up etc.

Randall & Beth scenes are my favourite part of this show.  And they don't have to always be heavy and dramatic either for viewers to appreciate them.  In fact, just the everyday, typical, fun back & forth banter between Randall & Beth are my favourite.  And the chemistry between Susan Kelechi Watson & Sterling K. Brown is phenomenal.  We got a little taste of it when they were in the bedroom and Beth was being playful.  Those moments are some of the show's best because these 2 actors just kill every scene they are in together. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Cementhead
Had to go back in to fix the quote box.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, himela said:

It's funny though that a good percentage of people in this forum are tired and upset with Randall being shown too much but Randall gets the majority of the posts. 😛

Well, there's only so much one can say about Kevin leaving the shower...

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, CountryCrazy said:

I liked it better when the show focused more in Randall and his Family issues

Tess and Kevin.  Those two have awesome chemistry, and it is such a wasted opportunity to not do at least part of a BLM story around Tess's sexual orientation. From what I have learned, it's my understanding that LBGTQ issues aren't always received well within the Black community.  Randall and Beth are supportive, but what about the wider neighborhood? Also, what about the fact that Tess is so very close to her white uncle, and that he is the one she often seeks out first?

Or, Randall could explore his views about BLM with Malik's dad, a man who is also Black but who does not have the same economic resources that Randall does.  Does that influence how each man sees the current landscape? Malik's dad is also raising a son during a time that is particularly dangerous for Black men.  Black women have also been killed, but more men have been killed than women. Does Malik's dad worry about Malik? Does Randall worry about Tess?

Randall can be PART of a BLM story instead of being the whole story, and the story does not just have to be "Glowing Up in a White Family" or "My Long-Lost Biological Father and Mother."

Edited October 30, 2020 by Ohmo

[himela]

6 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Well, there's only so much one can say about Kevin leaving the shower...

There are plenty of stuff that happened in two episodes but people still talk more about Randall and his story while complaining they are sick of him. This means that the writers are doing well showing him and his stories more that others' stories. It seems that people love to hate him. It's a show that wants numbers after all.

[Trillian]

14 hours ago, bros402 said:

Genealogy nerd here.

Randall was born at home and dropped off at a fire station - so no birth record listing Laurel as his mother (or William as his father).

Now, if she had died, the paramedics or cops would've probably learned her name - but there most likely wouldn't have been an obit or a death notice in the paper, given their economic & friend situation.

PA also has varying death records - there's some deaths through 1999 indexed by the Mormons, but the publicly available death certificates from the state ends at 1969, with their death index ending at 1964 (for some reason??).

He might've been able to find her through a social security death index entry - but it isn't guaranteed that she would've been listed if she had died (might've not been reported to the SSA - might've not been known). She would have had one, however - but the SSA stopped their letter forwarding service in the 2000s.

This has been a genealogy spiel.

This post made me really think about how ridiculous those paramedics were. They were caring for a woman who had obviously just given birth (although with a remarkable lack of blood, especially for a home birth.  But whatever). Some man is standing there holding a newborn baby, something which should have reinforced the opinion of trained medical professionals that she had just given birth to this particular baby. But they let him just walk off with the baby. I know the show tried to hand wave it as their being busy trying to revive her, but how did they know he wasn’t kidnapping her child?  This was 1980 - not 1780 - they would have had to file a report about having tended to a woman who had just given birth and whose baby was taken away by some guy who claimed to be her boyfriend.  Probably also called the police to find the baby. And then made the link to the baby left at the fire station. 
 

The reason the talk of death records made me think this is that Randall would have needed a birth certificate. In my Canadian jurisdiction, an application for a birth certificate for a non-hospital birth is accompanied by an affidavit of the paramedic, saying “this woman appeared to have just given birth and this Newborn baby was in the room and therefore I have reason to believe this baby was born to this woman on this date”.   It made sense that no one would’ve filled out such paperwork if Randall had just been left anonymously at the fire station, but the presence of paramedics attending to his mother makes the whole scenario, well, implausible at best.

I am way overthinking this.  But now it’s going to bug me as this subplot unfolds.

ETA:  I posted this. Before I read @doodlebug ‘s post about investigating the abandoned baby. Agree wholeheartedly.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Trillian
Posted without reading the whole thread

[himela]

Just for fun I searched a random page from this thread (page 7) and here are the times people mentioned each of the main characters:

Randall: 201

Kevin: 20

Kate: 53

Rebecca: 34

Miguel: 15

Toby: 12

Beth: 19

Isn't it funny? 😛

[KaveDweller]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

All of this is true, but the authorities, who would've been notified of the abandoned baby left at the firehouse; should've been able to link Randall to his mother way back when he was born.  The police always investigate infant abandonment, the paramedics saw William holding a newborn before they both disappeared.  The fire station was seemingly in their neighborhood. Everyone should've been able to put 2+2 together way back when and done so far more easily that a PI 30+ years later.

We also didn't hear William give his name to the paramedics or tell them he was the baby's father.  As far as we know, the paramedics wouldn't have been able to report his name because they didn't know it.  We don't even know that his name was on the lease or that any of the neighbors could identify him or knew his name or that he and his girlfriend were expecting.  Perhaps his name was in a police report as the tenant or as Laurel's boyfriend; but it would be a ridiculously huge leap for a PI to then report to Randall 30 + years after the fact that he had definitely found his father.  Even the link to Laurel was completely circumstantial at that point.

Yes, I agree the cops should have been able to link Randall back to his mother. But, maybe they didn't really try that hard. A baby was abandoned, a nice couple wanted to adopt him, and they had bigger issues to deal with.

We don't know for sure if William gave his name to the paramedics, or if his name was on the lease, but it is also likely that it was on the lease and that is how the PI found him. A PI being able to find William is not really one of the most unrealistic things to happen on the show.  Now Laurel turning up alive is another story.....

2 hours ago, himela said:

It's funny though that a good percentage of people in this forum are tired and upset with Randall being shown too much but Randall gets the majority of the posts. 😛

I'm tired of Randall as well. I am way more interested to see what his relationship with Beth and the girls is than all this drama with his siblings and his dad and his bio dad and so on. I want to see his everyday life with his family, how the girls are growing up etc.

Well Randall gets the majority of posts because a lot of people are talking about how they are annoyed by him. That's not really too surprising.

[doodlebug]

16 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Yes, I agree the cops should have been able to link Randall back to his mother. But, maybe they didn't really try that hard. A baby was abandoned, a nice couple wanted to adopt him, and they had bigger issues to deal with.

We don't know for sure if William gave his name to the paramedics, or if his name was on the lease, but it is also likely that it was on the lease and that is how the PI found him. A PI being able to find William is not really one of the most unrealistic things to happen on the show.  Now Laurel turning up alive is another story.....

Well Randall gets the majority of posts because a lot of people are talking about how they are annoyed by him. That's not really too surprising.

But we also know that Randall was born outside a hospital and had no birth certificate with his birth parents' names on it.  Just because William held the lease on the apartment where Laurel 'died' doesn't automatically make him Randall's father.  So, even if the police suspected William fathered Randall, even if they at least figured out that the abandoned baby was born to Laurel; it doesn't seem that there was any evidence confirming those things which then begs the question as to how the private investigator presented them as facts to Randall.

 In real life, the police would've linked the abandoned baby to the junkie who'd recently given birth and gone looking for William if his name was on the lease and questioned him as to the child's parentage and gotten details of the delivery.  For that matter, Laurel OD's on drugs taken shortly after delivery, the police would probably like to know what part William played in obtaining those drugs or even administering them.  He would easily face charges for abandoning a child as well as for his part in the OD.  And, of course, had the police done what police do in these cases, they'd have also tried to locate some of Lauren and/or William's families to see if they could take custody of the baby because that is how it works, even back then.  

Even if the police had better things to do than figure out that Randall was born to Laurel, the county Children's Services would've been involved immediately because the hospital social worker would've called them about the baby and they would've, at the very least, investigated the incredible coincidence that a junkie who had just given birth OD'd and no one knew where her baby was while, just a few blocks away, a newborn is left at a fire station.  BTW, if Laurel was actively using narcotics throughout her pregnancy, baby Randall would've been in massive withdrawal shortly after birth and would've been in the NICU and not the regular newborn nursery.  Babies in withdrawal can actually die if not appropriately handled.

Randall gets the most posts in part because he gets the biggest storylines and, in this case, the story makes no sense whatsoever.  His prior story, the run for city council, also got a lot of posts because it was nonsensical. I don't recall any of the other main characters being given such outlandish storylines as Randall does which is at least part of the reason he generates so many posts. This episode also presented a major topical issue, BLM, and naturally linked it to his character while Kate, Keven and Rebecca's current storylines are not stuff that have a lot of nuance or points for discussion. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by doodlebug

[MadyGirl1987]

16 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

BTW, if Laurel was actively using narcotics throughout her pregnancy, baby Randall would've been in massive withdrawal shortly after birth and would've been in the NICU and not the regular newborn nursery.  Babies in withdrawal can actually die if not appropriately handled.

Didn’t she say she was clean at the beginnings when she announced her pregnancy? She only used after because of the pain.

I’ve been trying to figure out why Randall and Kate’s conversation bothered me so, and I think I can put it into words now; it seems like he is talking more to a random white person then his sister who genuinely loves him and cares for him and his family. I know probably many people do act like Randall says when there is a big news story about violent acts against black people; their white guilt causes them to make such overtures to one of the few black people they know. I wasn’t getting that from Kate though. And if I did, maybe I would feel he was more justified.

Edited October 30, 2020 by MadyGirl1987

[KaveDweller]

9 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

But we also know that Randall was born outside a hospital and had no birth certificate with his birth parents' names on it.  Just because William held the lease on the apartment where Laurel 'died' doesn't automatically make him Randall's father.  So, even if the police suspected William fathered Randall, even if they at least figured out that the abandoned baby was born to Laurel; it doesn't seem that there was any evidence confirming those things which then begs the question as to how the private investigator presented them as facts to Randall.

 In real life, the police would've linked the abandoned baby to the junkie who'd recently given birth and gone looking for William if his name was on the lease and questioned him as to the child's parentage and gotten details of the delivery.  For that matter, Laurel OD's on drugs taken shortly after delivery, the police would probably like to know what part William played in obtaining those drugs or even administering them.  He would easily face charges for abandoning a child as well as for his part in the OD.  And, of course, had the police done what police do in these cases, they'd have also tried to locate some of Lauren and/or William's families to see if they could take custody of the baby because that is how it works, even back then.  

Even if the police had better things to do than figure out that Randall was born to Laurel, the county Children's Services would've been involved immediately because the hospital social worker would've called them about the baby and they would've, at the very least, investigated the incredible coincidence that a junkie who had just given birth OD'd and no one knew where her baby was while, just a few blocks away, a newborn is left at a fire station.  BTW, if Laurel was actively using narcotics throughout her pregnancy, baby Randall would've been in massive withdrawal shortly after birth and would've been in the NICU and not the regular newborn nursery.  Babies in withdrawal can actually die if not appropriately handled.

A PI doesn't have to work in facts like cops do though, he made a conclusion and presented that to Randall. If he was wrong, when Randall showed up on William's door William could have said that. I am sure that PIs don't make promises in cases like this.

I thought they made it clear that Laurel was not using during her pregnancy and had gotten clean, which makes her OD right after that much sadder. We never saw any indication in the past that Randall was anything but healthy, which would likely not have otherwise been the case. But we already knew that for whatever reason the police/child services weren't brought in to investigate Randall being left at the fire station, or if they were did very little. I have no idea if this is realistic for 1980 as I wasn't alive and have no experience with abandoned babies. But it is consistent with the history on the show. And I do think it is realistic for cops to miss things.

1 minute ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Didn’t she say she was clean at the beginnings when she announced her pregnancy? She only used after because of the pain.

I’ve been trying to figure out why Randall and Kate’s conversation bothered me so, and I think I can put it into words now; it seems like he is talking more to a random white person then his sister who genuinely loves him and cares for him and his family. I know probably many people do act like Randall says when there is a big news story about violent acts against black people; their white guilt causes them to make such overtures to one of the few black people they know. I wasn’t getting that from Kate though. And if I did, maybe I would feel he was more justified.

I can kind of get why Randall was annoyed with all Kate's sudden efforts of going to protests and talking about race. But I agree that something about the conversation bothered me and I think you are right it seemed like he was talking to a person be barely knew. 

[Guest]

Couple reminders: 

The topic here is the episodes of This Is Us that aired earlier this week. Keep on topic.

Snark on the show; do not snark on your fellow posters.

[kili]

Quote

I thought they made it clear that Laurel was not using during her pregnancy and had gotten clean, which makes her OD right after that much sadder.

And more likely. Lots of addicts OD when they fall off the wagon because they have built up a certain tolerance for the drug while addicted, but the same dose is too much for their system when they have been clean for a while. 

Quote

But they let him just walk off with the baby. I know the show tried to hand wave it as their being busy trying to revive her, but how did they know he wasn’t kidnapping her child?  This was 1980 - not 1780 - they would have had to file a report about having tended to a woman who had just given birth and whose baby was taken away by some guy who claimed to be her boyfriend.  Probably also called the police to find the baby. And then made the link to the baby left at the fire station. 

The jaded older paramedic did say that they needed to call the cops and child protective services. Then he noticed that William had run off and he said that the cops would need to figure out about that too. 

The retcon to make Laurel not die that day is going to take a lot of spinning. Did the cops just close the case when they figured the missing baby was the one at the firehouse? Did Laurel just meekly accept that her baby was gone and make no steps to get the baby back? Rebecca was so worried about William making a claim, but wasn't worried about Laurel? The police knew who she was.  Please don't turn Jack and Rebecca into baby stealers who used some loophole to take advantage of a situation to do deny Laurel her baby and to keep her secret for so many years. If Rebecca kept a second parent secret after the first, that is going to be ridiculous. 

I'm surprised that with one babynapper in the area, they didn't have some security on those babies at the nearby hospital. 

 

[bybrandy]

Laurel said she was on Methadone but if that would cause dependency in Randall depends on the dose she was taking (among other things)

[ams1001]

28 minutes ago, kili said:

The retcon to make Laurel not die that day is going to take a lot of spinning...Did Laurel just meekly accept that her baby was gone and make no steps to get the baby back?

Ooh!! I know!! Laurel was deprived of oxygen for too long and has been in a vegetative state for the last 40 years! Randall will find her tucked away in a nursing home somewhere and being the next of kin will have to decide whether to pull the plug.

[Neurochick]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:02 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Randall is still a sanctimonious prick. Good to know some things never change. How do people stand him? Seriously. He’s just unbearable. I have literally no sympathy for him. Are we in for a fifth season of him being coddled by everyone in nauseating monologues?

Must disagree one thousand percent. 

The scene between Randall and Kate was wonderful because that's what happens to black people, to POC.  So many times we feel we've got to make white people feel comfortable; and Randall's like, "nope, not doing that anymore, not going to be Superman."

I'm totally glad that he said he needed a black therapist.  About damn time!

Loved the song at the end.

[pancake bacon]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

Ooh!! I know!! Laurel was deprived of oxygen for too long and has been in a vegetative state for the last 40 years! Randall will find her tucked away in a nursing home somewhere and being the next of kin will have to decide whether to pull the plug.

Haha, you're giving good snark, @ams1001… 

William would have known this… and he didn't tell Randall? Perhaps William never bothered to check in with the mother of his child during her vegetative state (heartless!) or she died while in the vegetative state and didn't tell Randall otherwise (deceptive, and hurtful!) Maybe it really is the writers' plan to de-Saint William… which is good, but rather soap-opera-ish.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, kili said:

The retcon to make Laurel not die that day is going to take a lot of spinning. Did the cops just close the case when they figured the missing baby was the one at the firehouse? Did Laurel just meekly accept that her baby was gone and make no steps to get the baby back? Rebecca was so worried about William making a claim, but wasn't worried about Laurel? The police knew who she was.  Please don't turn Jack and Rebecca into baby stealers who used some loophole to take advantage of a situation to do deny Laurel her baby and to keep her secret for so many years. If Rebecca kept a second parent secret after the first, that is going to be ridiculous. 

I don't get this.

William never went back to the apartment.

I do not think that the police would have spent too much time on this case, two black heroin addicts?  Not really in 1980, not even in 2020. 

Even if they did realize that the baby was hers, I doubt they would have given Laurel the baby.  It's nice to think that the police would have spent time on the case but I really don't think so.

[kili]

Quote

William never went back to the apartment.

If William never goes back to the apartment, how does Rebecca find him a few days later? How does the bus driver know the location of his new  home so quickly? The bus driver recognized William from Rebecca's description and told her where he got off. Rebecca probably then asked around to locate his apartment How does a sleep-deprived Rebecca find him firmly settled in his new place of a few days? 

How does Laurel, Laurel's friends and the police not find him just as quickly?

How does Child Services not figure out that the random baby at the firehouse is the one that probably belongs to Laurel who just happens to be a person whose newborn was just snatched? How does child services let a baby go home the next day with a new family when the mother is alive? If they do, how does the fact that Laurel exists not rattle Rebecca's cage? Surely, the legal mother has more claim than the not-proven father who kidnapped him and then abandoned him.  Surely, Rebecca should have mentioned Laurel when Randall got so upset about her keeping William a secret?

Instead of Laurel waking up and everybody acting illogically for plot reasons to get Randall adopted, I'd rather that some random lady had showed up at Laurel's door and <gasp> she was Laurel's sister. Then, Randall can find his aunt and his extended maternal family. As it is, we are probably going to find out that Laurel is still alive and her second son became the new Manny.

The show can be so grounded in reality, but some of these twists are not.

 

 

[PRgal]

36 minutes ago, kili said:

If William never goes back to the apartment, how does Rebecca find him a few days later? How does the bus driver know the location of his new  home so quickly? The bus driver recognized William from Rebecca's description and told her where he got off. Rebecca probably then asked around to locate his apartment How does a sleep-deprived Rebecca find him firmly settled in his new place of a few days? 

How does Laurel, Laurel's friends and the police not find him just as quickly?

How does Child Services not figure out that the random baby at the firehouse is the one that probably belongs to Laurel who just happens to be a person whose newborn was just snatched? How does child services let a baby go home the next day with a new family when the mother is alive? If they do, how does the fact that Laurel exists not rattle Rebecca's cage? Surely, the legal mother has more claim than the not-proven father who kidnapped him and then abandoned him.  Surely, Rebecca should have mentioned Laurel when Randall got so upset about her keeping William a secret?

Instead of Laurel waking up and everybody acting illogically for plot reasons to get Randall adopted, I'd rather that some random lady had showed up at Laurel's door and <gasp> she was Laurel's sister. Then, Randall can find his aunt and his extended maternal family. As it is, we are probably going to find out that Laurel is still alive and her second son became the new Manny.

The show can be so grounded in reality, but some of these twists are not.

 

 

The new NEW Manny?  Because the guy who replaced Kevin is a real person.  

[pancake bacon]

27 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

So does anyone else think that Randall's new therapist will end up being his long lost mother?

That would be painful. To be a qualified therapist means Laurel is sober, and cognizant of her past. With her training, she can't have left unresolved the child who either believed died (and would need proof) or is still living out there (but did not work out any closure)? 

Also, that therapist would be age 70+ in the present. Plausible to be still working as a therapist, but not too common perhaps. 

[kili]

Quote

The new NEW Manny?  Because the guy who replaced Kevin is a real person.  

If a real person can replace a fictional person on a fictional show, he can have a fictional half-brother.   😀

[LeighLeigh]

Quick question: regarding William’s apartment. Can anyone clarify if the apartment where Rebecca found William different from the Laurel OD apartment? Thanks. 

[ams1001]

9 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

So does anyone else think that Randall's new therapist will end up being his long lost mother?

Hopefully they realize that most fans aren't likely to buy that kind of soap-opera-level coincidence. I know there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required, but that would just be too much. (And if he's looking for a therapist who can relate to his experience as a black man in this world, would he choose an elderly woman?)

I still think him doing a DNA test (maybe at the suggestion of his new therapist) that leads him to some blood relatives (either Laurel, if she is still alive, or half-sibling(s), if she recovered and had more kids...) could be interesting. And more realistic.

[bros402]

On 10/29/2020 at 10:33 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it's unfortunate that the BLM storyline is getting conflated with the Randall is an insufferable asshat storyline. He, and all people of colour, has an absolute right to their feelings about racism and I don't think any white person can ever truly understand what it is like to watch the George Floyd video from their perspective. But we have four seasons of this character already, where it has been shown that Jack and Rebecca tried to address his different needs as a black child. We have seen Kevin be there to support him through debilitating panic attacks, and it's always been shown how close he and Kate are. So to be so blunt and dismissive of Kate's feelings was, to me, over the top. Absolutely, systemic racism exists, but from what we've seen, Randall has not really experienced it. Maybe it's his own internalized guilt that has him lashing out at his sister, who is genuinely trying to be a part of the solution, not the problem. Even with that, if the BLM was the only story happening, I could sympathize more - but then they had to go and have St. Randall save the day with Rebecca. And, IMO, he is the one who should offer the apology first to Kevin, since he has already admitted he was wrong to do what he did to Rebecca, which is what started the fight in the first place. Not saying Kevin shouldn't apologize, too, but the onus is on Randall, IMO. I guess it all speaks to how great Sterling is in the role, because he is so smug and self-righteous that I just want to punch him. 

The closest I can get it to it as a white-hispanic disabled male is, well, any of the numerous shootings involving cops & people with disabilities - but in particular, that one in Florida where the therapist of that guy with autism was shot (and survived, thankfully)

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, Neurochick said:

The scene between Randall and Kate was wonderful because that's what happens to black people, to POC.  So many times we feel we've got to make white people feel comfortable; and Randall's like, "nope, not doing that anymore, not going to be Superman."

16 hours ago, jenifaohjenny said:

People are over Randall being upset about having no support as a person of color raised in an all white family? It might feel uncomfortable, but that is because it should feel uncomfortable.

I keep seeing versions of this -- that the show is making white people uncomfortable and that's a good thing, or that Kate was asking to be comforted and reassured, but Randall shouldn't  do that.  I honestly what's meant by these posts.

   Kate mentioned that she was joining  protest marches and that got a, "She doesn't get a woke cookie" from someone.  It just seems like she's getting more hate for trying to do what she can and trying to express support to her brother than if she just ignored the whole situation.  It comes across to me as some sort of punishment some people think she deserves, as though Kate is responsible for what a white cop in Minnesota did because she has the same color skin. 

I'm not sure if Kate's "I'm sorry," was meant as "I'm sorry for your pain,"  or "I'm sorry for being white," but I think Randall managed to succeed in making Kate feel the second way and I guess I don't agree that she should.  

 

[zillabreeze]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:52 PM, Empress1 said:

It's not Randall's job to do that. It's piling more emotional labor on top of the emotional labor that comes with seeing Black life consistently devalued.

Nah.  I didn't mean that at all IRL.  The show has already had some teachy/preachy moments (in a good way). 

Randall was eyeballs with his own sister of 4 decades; she seemed truly perplexed/remorseful and eager to connect and understand.  If not with one's own sibling, then who? 

Maybe we'll see this play out later in a thoughtful and productive fashion.  

[zillabreeze]

12 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

-- that the show is making white people uncomfortable

And our squirming is well deserved!  It's a convo that's long over due.  

[zillabreeze]

On 10/29/2020 at 9:28 PM, Racj82 said:

I personally don't need shows to be an escape for me anyway

Apparently, I am bi-Covid ... I bounce between re-runs of The Waltons and the grisly of the ID Channel...

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by zillabreeze

[jacksgirl]

Calling it right now since a lot of TIU speculators think Kate may be dead. She is a victim in a horrible accident at a BLM rally because blind baby Jack toddles out into traffic and she swoops in to save him from  speeding car.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I keep seeing versions of this -- that the show is making white people uncomfortable and that's a good thing, or that Kate was asking to be comforted and reassured, but Randall shouldn't  do that.  I honestly what's meant by these posts.

   Kate mentioned that she was joining  protest marches and that got a, "She doesn't get a woke cookie" from someone.  It just seems like she's getting more hate for trying to do what she can and trying to express support to her brother than if she just ignored the whole situation.  It comes across to me as some sort of punishment some people think she deserves, as though Kate is responsible for what a white cop in Minnesota did because she has the same color skin. 

I'm not sure if Kate's "I'm sorry," was meant as "I'm sorry for your pain,"  or "I'm sorry for being white," but I think Randall managed to succeed in making Kate feel the second way and I guess I don't agree that she should.  

 

I think Randall meant he was black his whole life, George Floyd was one person out of thousands who were in the news. His case was the last straw for many and on camera. The fact she was just noticing when she grew up with him just meant she lived in her bubble and didn't see him that way. That said, no way did Kate not see how others reacted to Randall vs Kevin. Why was Kevin always so mean to him that his dad had to intervene? Kate was closer to Kevin and called him when in trouble. I understand Randall but he loves his family, he just is tired of the "a guy got killed, what should I do" when it was always there.

Sometimes we all have to be aware of others even little things that aren't as pertinent as violence. I remember a conversation over GWTW (before the recent protest/warnings were added or talked about)A group  of white women were saying how much they loved the dresses and hoops and garden parties and wished they could live back then for a day or week. I said my usual, "no real toilets, no rights" comment with a smile and a black woman said with a smirk, I would be dressing you so No". They mumbled later she was rude, I said no she was pointing out you should be more aware of what's in front of you.  What's a dream for you, a nice fantasy is horrible for someone else and be careful even if you don't care, who is with you. It isn't someone trying to take your fun away, it isn't someone who had a "chip" on her shoulder, it is just someone who is tired of people not seeing her. I have worked with many minorities that keep quiet when they hear things that are insensitive to keep the peace but it does get tiring.

I said that same thing to my mixed daughter once watching LHOP. I would hate being back then but said if it was really Walnut Grove, maybe a day because of the feeling it evoked. She was young but said "I wouldn't be there, they sent the black kid away" I couldn't believe I forgot her reality vs mine and said she was right. I'm glad we live when we do. 

Edited October 31, 2020 by debraran

[geauxaway]

10 hours ago, ams1001 said:

And if he's looking for a therapist who can relate to his experience as a black man in this world, would he choose an elderly woman?)

THAT was my exact thought.  Why would he choose a 60-70 year old female as his new therapist.  Wouldn’t he be seeking out a male? And barring that, someone who is middle aged / more relatable?  I don’t see the therapist being Laurel or even related to her.  I hope I am correct.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by geauxaway

[izabella]

I was kinda bored during most of this season opener.  I am sick and tired of Randall's birth story, and truly pissed that they are now trying to retcon his birth mother's story.   If they make this a big part of the season, I might be out, especially since I am also sick and tired of the Pearson birth story, and very sick and tired of Jack flashbacks.

I want to see more of Kevin and Madison, and Kate and Toby.  I also want to see more of Miguel.  I noticed that, as a POC, Miguel had no voice in any of the BLM storyline.  Could have been a good moment for Randall and Miguel to bond over being POCs in this family and in this world, but no. 

Disappointing start since it seems we'll be focusing on the two most over-exposed characters on the show - Randall and Jack.

[cameron]

6 hours ago, zillabreeze said:

And our squirming is well deserved!  It's a convo that's long over due.  

I'm not squirming but really sad to see what the rioters destroyed and looted downtown in our historic area, along with threatening restaurants patrons who just happened to go out for the night with their families.  Downtown still looks like a war zone.

Edited October 31, 2020 by cameron

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, kili said:

If William never goes back to the apartment, how does Rebecca find him a few days later? How does the bus driver know the location of his new  home so quickly? The bus driver recognized William from Rebecca's description and told her where he got off. Rebecca probably then asked around to locate his apartment How does a sleep-deprived Rebecca find him firmly settled in his new place of a few days? 

How does Laurel, Laurel's friends and the police not find him just as quickly?

How does Child Services not figure out that the random baby at the firehouse is the one that probably belongs to Laurel who just happens to be a person whose newborn was just snatched? How does child services let a baby go home the next day with a new family when the mother is alive? If they do, how does the fact that Laurel exists not rattle Rebecca's cage? Surely, the legal mother has more claim than the not-proven father who kidnapped him and then abandoned him.  Surely, Rebecca should have mentioned Laurel when Randall got so upset about her keeping William a secret?

Instead of Laurel waking up and everybody acting illogically for plot reasons to get Randall adopted, I'd rather that some random lady had showed up at Laurel's door and <gasp> she was Laurel's sister. Then, Randall can find his aunt and his extended maternal family. As it is, we are probably going to find out that Laurel is still alive and her second son became the new Manny.

The show can be so grounded in reality, but some of these twists are not.

 

 

Here's how I view the Laurel story. 

The police, the paramedics, Child Services, all saw Laurel one way, a drug addicted black woman.  Sadly, no one would have spent that much time on her, her child or her case.

Another angle:  Laurel was a middle class girl, maybe her family found her in the city and took her back home.  Maybe she wanted to find out what happened to her son, but her family convinced her to forget all about her "old life."  Maybe Laurel moved on, got married to a "respectable" man and had children. 

That may sound far fetched, but I've heard similar stories through the years, of women who surrendered their children because they were addicts or alcoholics. 

I don't mind seeing a lot of Randall because shit, almost everything on TV is about pretty white people and their problems; which is why I don't want to see Kevin and how he hooked up with Kate's friend, got her pregnant, and magically asked her to marry him, because I guess Kevin was in love with her all the time, right?

But I do want to see more of Randall's daughter, Tess.  To me she's a character who should be developed more.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Neurochick

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Here's how I view the Laurel story. 

The police, the paramedics, Child Services, all saw Laurel one way, a drug addicted black woman.  Sadly, no one would have spent that much time on her, her child or her case.

Another angle:  Laurel was a middle class girl, maybe her family found her in the city and took her back home.  Maybe she wanted to find out what happened to her son, but her family convinced her to forget all about her "old life."  Maybe Laurel moved on, got married to a "respectable" man and had children. 

That may sound far fetched, but I've heard similar stories through the years, of women who surrendered their children because they were addicts or alcoholics. 

I don't mind seeing a lot of Randall because shit, almost everything on TV is about pretty white people and their problems; which is why I don't want to see Kevin and how he hooked up with Kate's friend, got her pregnant, and magically asked her to marry him, because I guess Kevin was in love with her all the time, right?

But I do want to see more of Randall's daughter, Tess.  To me she's a character who should be developed more.

I can see some of this happening.  Laurel is a blank slate at this point.  Just because she was living in Pittsburgh in 1979-1980 doesn't mean she is from there.  She could be like William and have her roots in another city, say Philadelphia.  She could easily have lived and moved back home after waking up.  And the idea of some mothers giving up custody of their children for whatever reason is not far-fetched to me.  Women of all races, creeds, and backgrounds have given up their children over the years sometimes to family members sometimes to strangers.  She also could have woken up to find William and her baby had disappeared, gotten clean but lacked the resources to find her son.  

I personally don't mind the show exploring Laurel.  It never really sat right with me that Randall's mother was treated as just another drug addicted black woman who existed just to give birth to Randall before dying of an overdose.  

[Blakeston]

20 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I’ve been trying to figure out why Randall and Kate’s conversation bothered me so, and I think I can put it into words now; it seems like he is talking more to a random white person then his sister who genuinely loves him and cares for him and his family. I know probably many people do act like Randall says when there is a big news story about violent acts against black people; their white guilt causes them to make such overtures to one of the few black people they know. I wasn’t getting that from Kate though. And if I did, maybe I would feel he was more justified.

I don't think that Randall was bothered that Kate was coming to him to say she was sorry about the racism in America. I think he was bothered that she didn't do it sooner.

Regarding the authorities' apparent failure to investigate who Randall's birth parents were: This isn't just about the police. (Although I think the police would probably be eager to investigate child endangerment after finding two Black addicts with a newborn baby that was born in their apartment with no medical attention.) But even if the police decided they didn't give a damn about any of it, there are other parties in play here.

Child services is going to take an interest in a newborn left at a child station. And the state isn't going to put a child up for adoption without any effort to figure out who his birth parents are. That isn't good for anyone, including the adoptive parents.

I won't be surprised if they tell us that Laurel terminated her parental rights after being treated for the overdose, and that she named someone other than William as the father (maybe someone dead), because she didn't think William could care for him.

That still wouldn't make sense, though. Jack and Rebecca would have known that his birth mother had terminated her rights.

Also, they seem to want us to think that Laurel is a good person who just had an unfortunate drug problem. And there's no way that even a halfway-decent person would completely cut William off from his child like that.

[LakeLover]

On 10/29/2020 at 1:52 PM, Empress1 said:

I found it refreshing that Randall had this conversation with Kate because so many Black people, myself included, had these conversations with white people in our lives after George Floyd's murder and Randall used the same word I did - it is exhausting. So often, what the Kates in this conversation are looking for is reassurance that they're not bad people, and IMO Randall simply does not have the emotional bandwidth to do all that when he's dealing with the reality that he is one cop's bad mood away from becoming a hashtag, and that this shit is not new to us and not going anywhere (see: Walter Wallace Jr. literally this week). It takes a physical and psychological toll to see people who look like you murdered by state agents who then face no consequences for those murders (I still have not watched the Floyd video and don't think I ever will), and I think he just didn't have the bandwidth to reassure well-meaning white people that they're OK when he is not okay. I really liked that Kate appeared to be doing her best to hear Randall and didn't get defensive - as others have said, I think she has .

Watching this episode, I felt the same way I do whenever yet another person of color is killed - full of sorrow, anger, and outrage, with a feeling of helplessness that as a white woman I don't know how to help, when to approach with kindness, when to retreat with respect, afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing. It looks like Kate was reacting the same way - wanting to help, loving her brother, feeling the injustice, knowing she cannot live Randall's experience.

[bros402]

On 10/30/2020 at 4:07 PM, Trillian said:

This post made me really think about how ridiculous those paramedics were. They were caring for a woman who had obviously just given birth (although with a remarkable lack of blood, especially for a home birth.  But whatever). Some man is standing there holding a newborn baby, something which should have reinforced the opinion of trained medical professionals that she had just given birth to this particular baby. But they let him just walk off with the baby. I know the show tried to hand wave it as their being busy trying to revive her, but how did they know he wasn’t kidnapping her child?  This was 1980 - not 1780 - they would have had to file a report about having tended to a woman who had just given birth and whose baby was taken away by some guy who claimed to be her boyfriend.  Probably also called the police to find the baby. And then made the link to the baby left at the fire station. 
 

The reason the talk of death records made me think this is that Randall would have needed a birth certificate. In my Canadian jurisdiction, an application for a birth certificate for a non-hospital birth is accompanied by an affidavit of the paramedic, saying “this woman appeared to have just given birth and this Newborn baby was in the room and therefore I have reason to believe this baby was born to this woman on this date”.   It made sense that no one would’ve filled out such paperwork if Randall had just been left anonymously at the fire station, but the presence of paramedics attending to his mother makes the whole scenario, well, implausible at best.

I am way overthinking this.  But now it’s going to bug me as this subplot unfolds.

ETA:  I posted this. Before I read @doodlebug ‘s post about investigating the abandoned baby. Agree wholeheartedly.

Here in the US, many states have safe haven laws - there are specific places you can go and just drop off a baby. The law varies place by place - some places, you can just drop off a baby with a person (or in a special box) and then go - some places ask you to fill out some forms.

So, William should be prosecuted for child abandonment. (Also, looked it up, PA didn't have a safe haven law until the 2000s - http://www.keepkidssafe.pa.gov/about/safehavenlaw/index.htm)

I imagine in this case, after the firefighter brought Randall to the hospital, the doctor went "eh he looks fresh out of a lady, his birthday is today" and a birth certificate was issued for a John Doe - most likely with a John & Jane Doe listed on it as parents.

However, when Randall was adopted, his parents were changed to Jack Pearson and Rebecca WhateverHerMaidenNameIs. I don't know PA's adoptions laws off of the top of my head, but in some states, it is ridiculously difficult to get a copy of the original birth certificate, others it is... easier. I have a friend who couldn't get a copy of hers until she informed the court that she was dying of cancer. That was considered "extraordinary circumstances" - so her records were released to her, almost entirely in full (a few things were redacted, if memory serves - but nothing that made it impossible for a genealogy nerd to find the birth parents).

On 10/30/2020 at 4:34 PM, DarkHorse said:

You don't think it is racist that he doesn't want a white therapist? If a white character said they didn't want a black therapist would that still be ok?

Therapy is a very individual thing - it's all about who you feel comfortable with - or in this case, who Randall, a Black man raised in a White family, feels comfortable with

[geauxaway]

On 10/30/2020 at 3:34 PM, DarkHorse said:

You don't think it is racist that he doesn't want a white therapist? If a white character said they didn't want a black therapist would that still be ok?

Of course it’s not racist and it wouldn’t be racist for a white person to prefer a white therapist.  You have to go with your comfort level when it comes to healthcare, and that is that.  No different than me wanting a female physician and not being sexist.   

[gonzosgirrl]

I thought that they were making Randall an insufferable twat before Covid and George Floyd. It's been his nature to be condescending and superior, regardless of what he's going through internally. The fact that real life events are now being woven into the story, practically in real time, doesn't make the character immune from criticism or even dislike. I love Sterling K. Brown, have since his days on Supernatural. He deserves his Emmys and all the good things happening for him, career wise. Part of that excellent career is making me feel things about Randall Pearson, sometimes good things (I love his lame Dad jokes and his way with his kids), sometimes bad: the hateful shots he took at Kevin last finale, which seem to have been forgotten as he has seemingly become bullet proof.

[Blakeston]

I don't think Randall (or the writers) are asking Kate to share blame with the Derek Chauvins of the world - just to acknowledge how much privilege she has, and the ways that she's apparently been oblivious to it.

And to her credit, she's doing that. Randall could have communicated that to her better, but he's never been good at communication (Pearson speeches aside). And the idea seems to be that he's just too exhausted to be sensitive to her feelings, or plan his words carefully.

Kevin is probably the one who needs to consider that stuff more than anyone else. He's the embodiment of privilege in a whole lot of ways. He also seems to have zero social awareness at all (like his reaction to the jeweler who mentioned conflict-free diamonds). And he spent his childhood siding with the bullies who called Randall "Webster," instead of Randall. But Randall isn't in a place to have that conversation with him.

 

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Kevin is probably the one who needs to consider that stuff more than anyone else. He's the embodiment of privilege in a whole lot of ways.

Kevin is financially privileged, but I don't think he's the embodiment of privilege, at least not in terms of being unaware that he is. He makes jokes about it, such as he would have been able to rent a house where Madison has her own wing. Kevin seems to me very aware that he's a white, attractive man who makes a crap ton of money. I think that's why he makes jokes about it, and sometimes the jokes are ill-advised.  However, behind the scenes, viewers know Kevin has been quite generous.  There have been inferences that he has paid for specialists for Baby Jack, he's bought a camper for Nicky, and he's caring for Rebecca in his home in the flash forwards. 

I've always had the impression Kevin is very aware of his straight, white, male, rich privileged status.  I even see that when he talks to Tess. She comes from money, but she's Black, female, and not straight.  Kevin takes his position as her uncle very seriously, and I believe he takes his overall privilege seriously as well.  He doesn't want the outside world to know that, though.  That's for him and those closest to him.  His outward public behavior is a cover or mask.  He understands more than the world believes he does.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Ohmo

[Blakeston]

Honestly, it completely slipped my mind that we already had a subplot about Kevin and race when he dated Beth's cousin.

He took the approach of, "eh, who cares what race, we like each other, right?", but she showed him how complicated the whole thing was. 

I think that dating her opened his mind about these things. But I don't think he would take it upon himself to do what Kate did.

[MBayGal]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:46 PM, pancake bacon said:

Also, that therapist would be age 70+ in the present. Plausible to be still working as a therapist, but not too common perhaps. 

Randall is 40, and his mother could easily have been 20 or younger when he was born.  So she could be easily still be practicing.  OTOH, I had a friend who maintained her therapy practice a few days a week well into her 70’s. 

[zillabreeze]

On 10/30/2020 at 3:01 PM, Ohmo said:

Randall can be PART of a BLM story instead of being the whole story, and the story does not just have to be "Glowing Up in a White Family" or "My Long-Lost Biological Father and Mother."

Just MHO, but Randall is irritating, sanctimonious and holier than thou and he would piss me off regardless of his pigment.

On 10/31/2020 at 1:44 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I personally don't mind the show exploring Laurel.  It never really sat right with me that Randall's mother was treated as just another drug addicted black woman who existed just to give birth to Randall before dying of an overdose.  

I'm not loving that stereotype either...kind of convoluted.  I've never squirted a kid, but I'm pretty damned sure that i wouldn't be all that judgey about the source or legality of pain meds at that particular moment...

Edited November 2, 2020 by zillabreeze

[zillabreeze]

19 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

I don't know we are talking about Randall here. 

Because Randall is a well spoken, educated, devoted family man and the  "picture perfect"  black dude for a conversation that our country desperately needs to have?   

Edited November 2, 2020 by zillabreeze

[zillabreeze]

2 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I don't put anything past the writers of this show anymore. They like amping up the drama any chance they get. If the new therapist isn't his birth mother then they will have some connection to her. 

There's not squat on Network TV right now, so, I suppose that any ridic twisted storyline is better than nothing.  

[SeeSee]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:38 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

 

Does anyone else have a hard time leaving their house with the Crock Pot going, even though that's what the damn thing was designed for. Thanks a lot, show. 

 

I have never used one (other than for keeping something hot I brought to a party) for this reason.  I just can't leave the house knowingly leaving something like that on.  So this just confirms my phobia!  LOL

Edited November 2, 2020 by SeeSee

[tvfanatic13]

Well, I for one was incredibly bored by both of the episodes. It seems to have lost its oomph. 

[Janie430]

So I enjoyed the show.  I think part of the reason that some of us are disappointed that the Randall story has gone in another direction based on current events is that we were hoping this was the season Randall was finally going to hit bottom, and start growing. 

A lot of the episodes in the first season were deliberately staged to almost felt like VSE of some series - they make a speech to Kevin at the pool, and everything is better, Rebecca says she just wants to help Kate make better choices, Jack makes the sacrifice to take the promotion and keep Randall in private school, and everything is good.  Except we see that the easy fix/grand gesture/heartfelt speech Jack loved are in fact in the long run damaging.  Kevin still felt rejected and ignored, Kate got mixed messages about weight and self-acceptance from her parents, Randall's school fed into his anxiety disorder and the family dealt with them inappropriately. In subsequent seasons, we see the kids hitting bottom and taking the best from their childhood, and starting to mitigate the damage.

Season one Kevin was a self-centered trainwreck who couldn't be alone with himself because he was too damaged.  We see him taking steps to grow in season one, hitting bottom in season two and again in season three, and growing up.  We saw the effects of his childhood, and the passive-aggressive way Rebecca punished him for moving away by ignoring his life out in LA and never seeing him.  And in season four, it came together - we saw in flashbacks the way he had always been supportive in some ways with Randall, we saw him being there for Nicky, and being successful.  In the fight scene with Randall, when Randall says that he's a selfish jerk who can never care about anyone more than himself, we literally saw the moment that Kevin realized that Randall was full of it, and that he wasn't that guy anymore, and Randall was projecting like mad.  

Season Two Kate and Season Three Kate was also a trainwreck who we saw hit bottom - she had to let go of her Dad at the end of season two somewhat to be able to walk down the aisle to her future.  She met her past selves when she was having IVF, and she had to come to terms with the fact that what she wanted, a biological child, was risky and selfish, and that Jack was going to pay the price for it.  And in season four, she becomes a good mom, and lets go of the perfect fantasy of Toby, for the real Toby - Crossfit guy who was not great at parenting the first few months.  And the fantasy of Jack Damon, for the real child he was. 

I was hoping the end of Season four and the beginning of Season five was going to be Randall's hitting bottom - manipulating his family and having it backfire horribly, his control issues, his dismissiveness of Kevin and his ego finally causing him to spiral out of control.  And to start getting help for his mental illness (anxiety disorder).  And I get why the stories we can see through Randall's eyes in terms of George Floyd and COVID 19 are so powerful, and need to be done, but I'm worried we're going to miss that story of him realizing how badly Jack failed him in some ways, and why.  Randall doesn't just need therapy to deal with the stress of the current protests and COVID - he needs it to help him cope with the fact that his mother is dying of a disease he can't fix.  He needs to let go of his superiority complex or he's going to lose his brother.  I get the whole "I need a black therapist" thing, but the story has to still cover why he ended up in therapy in the first place.