S07.E08: Judgement Day

[sasha206]

11 hours ago, pickle said:

@BallisticNikki has been giving some great points but I wanted to add a slightly different perspective as someone (am from Asia) who attended international fellowship churches in different countries where we lived. While the central tenets of the faith will be the same, there can be differences in approach based on political, historical and cultural context.

Mike is responding as a personal choice question (an American perspective) but in many places of the world, the religion you follow is a question of community identity. This means that you may not necessarily believe but you still identify yourself as part of that religious community. Part of her question about the future kid identity is related to the question - what community will you be part of. This is a question that people in other parts of the world have to have if you marry someone of another faith. The child will eventually choose is not the answer because you you have to make a choice in government identity papers. There is no 'none, personal choice later' kind of option. It isn't about your personal faith or belief. This means that the child will be formally identified by one faith irrespective of their personal feelings and there can be legal as well as social implications for how you identify yourself. Have heard children of mixed-faith families say that it can be confusing because you are not sure which social customs to follow and sometimes end up doing neither which can be alienating.

Someone had also pointed out that during the Soviet era, Ukranians were not allowed to express their faith or follow. This adds a whole different layer to how Natalie reacts. People who come from places where there was some sort of religious persecution are far more attached to their faith than people who come from religious freedom places like Mike. Now whether they practice everything in the Bible or how they interpret certain aspects may vary but the way they hold on to faith is far different from someone of a religious freedom country. He is never going to understand why her hackles are raised at his nonchalance because he is rejecting a key national identity -- something that may have been part of social fabric and discussion for years.

Then there is the communist climate of distrust. We lived in an Asian communist country and we had locals share some part of their experiences only because we were the same faith. Other expatriates never heard these stories. I remember one local lady sharing with the repeated emphasis "we believe in the same God and therefore I will tell you." They lived in a climate where you have no idea who will report you to authorities for what. Cooking fish? Your neighbour might report you on suspicion that you got extra from outside the ration. In that kind of atmosphere, they could only converse freely with people within the church as they trusted that it wouldn't get reported. From that kind of background, her comment that people who don't believe betray, cheat and cannot be trusted comes with a certain political bite. My gut says that she or her family or people she knew was reported on (by someone non-religious) for something and it had serious consequences.

Also, rather than her reaction at the church, I was more confused by Mike's chatter but this might be more of a cultural feedback. We have churches that are believed to be holy places and when you pray, things happen. People believe that so strongly that even those outside the faith might come pray regularly. In such churches, silence is part of the worship. We don't necessarily chat or ask question -- that would be for outside. Even non-religious people would often express how there is something different about this place -- this was the kind of sentiment Natalie was expecting Mike to say when she asked "now do you believe". When Mike honestly said no, she got upset because that particular church might hold some emotional as well as religious meaning to her -- most likely, she prayed there and found some measure of peace and this is her go to place when she is troubled.

I feel that we are getting a very splotchy narrative -- there is a lot of political, historical and personal history context missing mixed with weird TLC editing where it feel like chunks of conversation are missing. In addition to all of that, Natalie is also a high strung person who has trouble expressing her deep feelings into words.

Very good interesting points; thank you for those.  And all of those points only highlight that if this is such a part of your being, your community, that you would have these conversations your very first date.

[RealReality]

8 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Very good interesting points; thank you for those.  And all of those points only highlight that if this is such a part of your being, your community, that you would have these conversations your very first date.

Id go a step further and say that if this is so important it should have a conversation you have before the first date.  

Don't waste time on appetizers and an entree if you need a devout christian man who wants to have a kid NOW!

It's interesting to me because I think there is more to this story.  Natalie is pretty, fit and seems relatively educated.  She hasn't given any indication that she is desperate to get to the US.  She wants a baby RIGHT NOW!!!!

Why did her friends need to introduce her to a man?  As a pretty, fit, intelligent women who is willing to stay local or move and wants a baby RIGHT NOW the world should have been her oyster and she should have been actively meeting tons of men.  

Why did she need an assist from her friends to meet a man?  

It makes me think that she may have a history of not being able to retain a relationship because she is cuckoo mcbonkers 

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Id go a step further and say that if this is so important it should have a conversation you have before the first date.  

Don't waste time on appetizers and an entree if you need a devout christian man who wants to have a kid NOW!

It's interesting to me because I think there is more to this story.  Natalie is pretty, fit and seems relatively educated.  She hasn't given any indication that she is desperate to get to the US.  She wants a baby RIGHT NOW!!!!

Why did her friends need to introduce her to a man?  As a pretty, fit, intelligent women who is willing to stay local or move and wants a baby RIGHT NOW the world should have been her oyster and she should have been actively meeting tons of men.  

Why did she need an assist from her friends to meet a man?  

It makes me think that she may have a history of not being able to retain a relationship because she is cuckoo mcbonkers 

Maybe in her community there is a stigma about divorce that makes many men reject her outright.  And maybe regardless of their ages they want a bride significantly younger than 35.

[sasha206]

9 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Id go a step further and say that if this is so important it should have a conversation you have before the first date.  

Don't waste time on appetizers and an entree if you need a devout christian man who wants to have a kid NOW!

It's interesting to me because I think there is more to this story.  Natalie is pretty, fit and seems relatively educated.  She hasn't given any indication that she is desperate to get to the US.  She wants a baby RIGHT NOW!!!!

Why did her friends need to introduce her to a man?  As a pretty, fit, intelligent women who is willing to stay local or move and wants a baby RIGHT NOW the world should have been her oyster and she should have been actively meeting tons of men.  

Why did she need an assist from her friends to meet a man?  

It makes me think that she may have a history of not being able to retain a relationship because she is cuckoo mcbonkers 

Totally agree -- if you want a baby RIGHT NOW!!! what religion your potential date is or isn't should be the first thing you ask!

Also totally agree that this pretty, fit, intelligent woman shows her cuckoo cards early and they don't stick around.

I'm impressed that so far Mike doesn't seem like the typical American male pursuing a Ukranian/Russian bride; he seems as though he may be smart enough to get out of this relationship.  But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if all those red flags get ignored because she's exotic to him and they probably have great sex after she goes cuckoo! 

 

[Mr. Miner]

I know Michael was upset because his friend called Angela trashy, which is a fact. The second he slapped the glasses off of my face, TLC would have had a good old fashioned ass kicking to film.

[sasha206]

36 minutes ago, pickle said:

Definitely!  I actually think she is not that religious and it is more TLC editing and narrative build. My sense is that she is more of a community ritualistic kind of believer. But I totally agree with you -- whatever your deal breakers and non-negotiables are, it needs to be discussed very early on. No point dragging it out. I am actually more surprised that she didn't have the baby conversation earlier with Mike when it seems to be a big part of her divorce. Wanting a baby is far more a bigger issue for her than Mike's beliefs.

Agreed on how big a deal religion really is to her.  I feel like what's really going on is this sweet, tall American was cute to her at first.  She thought she could mold him into this uber fit, sophisticated man her ex probably was.  Now he's in the Ukraine with her, she's baby hungry and what she is most upset about is that she can't make him as attractive to her as her ex-husband (I believe HE left her and SHE is still in love with him ) and is trying to figure out whether she can be with this man and have a baby with him.  The religion and vegetarianism are the reasons why she 'll tell him she can't.  Hell, this man actually went to church with her.   I suspect if she wasn't trying to force him into her beliefs, he'd go along with baby in tow every weekend if it meant that much to her.  

I do think because he didn't capitulate to her and walked away and is standing firm, that this side of him surprised her and probably made him a little more attractive to her.

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by sasha206

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

Totally agree -- if you want a baby RIGHT NOW!!! what religion your potential date is or isn't should be the first thing you ask!

Also totally agree that this pretty, fit, intelligent woman shows her cuckoo cards early and they don't stick around.

I'm impressed that so far Mike doesn't seem like the typical American male pursuing a Ukranian/Russian bride; he seems as though he may be smart enough to get out of this relationship.  But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if all those red flags get ignored because she's exotic to him and they probably have great sex after she goes cuckoo! 

 

LOL, you're right.  I think he is locked in that age old battle where his brain north of the border is making sound and reasonable arguments as to why this relationship is a horrible idea, but the brain in his pants is making equally compelling arguments about how she is pretty, fit, hot, has that crazy sex and is way out of his league.

It'll be interesting to see which brain wins!

Edited December 26, 2019 by RealReality

[NannyBails]

If she met him and decided that she didn't want to be with him, how about being honest and saying that her feelings for him have dropped?   (LOL)  Isn't that the point of dating?  To get to know someone and figure out if you're compatible?

[MajorNelson]

But her best friend is Mike's best friend's wife.  This was meant to be!

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Maybe in her community there is a stigma about divorce that makes many men reject her outright.  And maybe regardless of their ages they want a bride significantly younger than 35.

This is a legitimate point.  But, even if that were the feeling in her immediate community, she is open to moving and meeting men internationally.  She could have "dated" a Canadian, British or European devout christian.  She is pretty, fit, intelligent.....and willing to date outside of her country.......I cannot fathom why she needed help finding a dude. 

She must have been looking because she wants a baby NOW!!!  So I would have thought that someone like her would be swimming in international christian dick.  

Instead her friends needed to hook her up with a guy who isnt rich, doesnt want a kid right now, isn't passionate about fitness and believes in aliens.  Why?

2 minutes ago, MajorNelson said:

But her best friend is Mike's best friend's wife.  This was meant to be!

I just LOL at this being like the ONLY thing they have in common.  It's like a weird Jane Austen novel where people get married out of familial proximity.  

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I just LOL at this being like the ONLY thing they have in common.  It's like a weird Jane Austen novel where people get married out of familial proximity

Maybe Mike’s friend was amenable to remolding so they thought it was an American trait.

[Mr. Miner]

Mike's friend knocked up Natalie's friend almost immediately. Mike has been warned by his friend not to do that.

 

[Gobi]

37 minutes ago, RealReality said:

This is a legitimate point.  But, even if that were the feeling in her immediate community, she is open to moving and meeting men internationally.  She could have "dated" a Canadian, British or European devout christian.  She is pretty, fit, intelligent.....and willing to date outside of her country.......I cannot fathom why she needed help finding a dude. 

She must have been looking because she wants a baby NOW!!!  So I would have thought that someone like her would be swimming in international christian dick.  

Instead her friends needed to hook her up with a guy who isnt rich, doesnt want a kid right now, isn't passionate about fitness and believes in aliens.  Why?

I just LOL at this being like the ONLY thing they have in common.  It's like a weird Jane Austen novel where people get married out of familial proximity.  

I suspect that single strict Christian men in her age range might not be all that appealing.

[Rt66vintage]

 

 

On 12/23/2019 at 6:00 PM, Wollstonecraft said:

Sanctimonious Robert.  He wants the perfect mother for his son, but he's spawned 5 kids by 4 different women. Where's his halo there?  Let me guess, each baby mama wasn't pristine enough.  He's dirt poor, has the nasty habit of dangling nice things in front of Anny and then says no and always looks disheveled. She needs to go back home.

 

I can't get over the lint in his ponytail. Is Sharp Entertainment trolling us, or him, by not suggesting he clean up or look un the mirror? 

On 12/23/2019 at 6:07 PM, goofygirl said:

After pondering this for a few minutes, I think old winedouche just quit talking about the prenush with Juliana because he was skeered!  Really skeered! Did you see his face when they were sitting there not watching CeCe climb the wall?  

 

Yes, I saw his face during that scene. It was absolutely the ugliest he's ever been. It was a melting, pasty, greasy sneer mixed with worry and impatience, and a dash of embarrassment. I'm wondering if he even shaves, why is his face so smooth? 

[configdotsys]

Natalie's face when Mike told her that he's $30 grand in debt said it all. She is one of those people who think that everyone that lives in America lives high on the hog and has all kinds of money to spend. She knows what it costs for him to visit her and he showed up so she believes there is a huge source of funds just waiting for her when she arrives. So she has another X against their relationship: he doesn't want kids now, he's in debt, and he does not believe in God and is unwilling to bend on that at all. She's trying to use her batting eyelashes to mold him into everything she wants and it ain't happening. I have to say that seeing a grown woman with the eyelashes and crawling into his lap and all that is just so cringeworthy to me because it's pure fake and nothing but manipulation. Laying in a bed with a stuffed animal crying after a "fight" with your fiance? Oh Lord. Thank goodness he has a backbone. Why the hell has he been so unsuccessful with women? He seems like a total catch. 

That whole line that she fed him about her getting a job and helping him pay his bills is EXACTLY what a person truly in love and interested in building a future together would say (and do)  but she was full of shit. It was a line designed to pull him back in after her tantrum. I can't speak for anyone else but when my husband I got together, we had nothing. We didn't have families who gave down payments and paid for college and were an ATM (nothing wrong with that, just saying what our situation was). Quite the opposite. Anything we had, we earned it and saved a few bucks when we could. It took a long time and there were very lean years and we never reached a life of easy street. We were able to cover our necessaries every month, save a few bucks and could buy a new couch or whatever if we wanted to. Just a regular working life of moving along. One time he was out of work for well over a year and I was doing medical transcription and paid by the page. I'd work 14 hour days to keep all the bills paid because that's what you do. He wasn't an oaf and sitting around all day, the job market was really difficult at that time. He felt awful about it. Natalie is just a psycho in my book. Looks like we're in for another fun convo between the two of them next week.

 

[zoltana]

On 12/22/2019 at 9:54 PM, Spike said:

Okay I’m a cis white male too but is it really woke and progressive to reduce people like that?  They don’t even know him.  I consider myself a feminist, so there!

That part bugged me.  Who are they to say what he needs to learn and unlearn.  Aside from his questionable decisions in regard to Tania he's seemed like a decent person.  I'd be out the door if my spouse to be brought me to a shed and told me to clean it up so we can live in it.  All of a sudden being "woke" means you're only decent and worthy if you believe everything I believe.  I'd love to see how she reacted if he was going to clubs and "just" dancing and having drinks with female friends he's made since she's been gone.  

[RoxiP]

Did anybody else have to google what a cis white man was?

[Frozendiva]

49 minutes ago, RoxiP said:

Did anybody else have to google what a cis white man was?

Me. I think I must either be old or just not in the loop on current slang and labels, which will probably change yet again.

[BallisticNikki]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:51 PM, bravofan27 said:

She works as a nurse aide overnights and is really trying to get Michael to the US. I actually think she deserves that, and I am rooting for her. She's got common sense, IMO, and great sense of humor, and I think she is very pretty. She gets nasty when she feels insecure, but I'm not holding that against her. It's a defense mechanism and it's not personal to anyone, IMO. 

What?

5 hours ago, RealReality said:

Why did her friends need to introduce her to a man?  As a pretty, fit, intelligent women who is willing to stay local or move and wants a baby RIGHT NOW the world should have been her oyster and she should have been actively meeting tons of men.  

Why did she need an assist from her friends to meet a man?

They didn't introduce her. She was the baby's godmother and Mike was the godfather. They met at the baptism.

4 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Agreed on how big a deal religion really is to her.  I feel like what's really going on is this sweet, tall American was cute to her at first.  She thought she could mold him into this uber fit, sophisticated man her ex probably was.  Now he's in the Ukraine with her, she's baby hungry and what she is most upset about is that she can't make him as attractive to her as her ex-husband (I believe HE left her and SHE is still in love with him ) and is trying to figure out whether she can be with this man and have a baby with him.  The religion and vegetarianism are the reasons why she 'll tell him she can't.  Hell, this man actually went to church with her.   I suspect if she wasn't trying to force him into her beliefs, he'd go along with baby in tow every weekend if it meant that much to her.  

I do think because he didn't capitulate to her and walked away and is standing firm, that this side of him surprised her and probably made him a little more attractive to her.

Maybe it's just the hopeless romantic in me (not really) but I think the story of how they met is really spectacular and quite moving. Almost spiritual in a way, as if divinely guided. Your best friend travels halfway around the world to find the love of her life...and maybe promised Natalie hers was close behind? Then maybe the baby, who the friend had all but forced herself to give up hope for, appeared. "And a little child shall lead them," right? I can totally see a pious, emotional, hurt 30 something woman really taking all of the symbolism and pathos and yearning and creating something that is really not there. She wanted this so badly! And he prbly fell for her the moment he saw her. And everything was right in her world. Except.......

I think the emotion is coming from a real place; she really, really, wants to make this fairy tale work and is boiling over in a mad panic as she realizes it's not. 

I think she is still very much into him. And prbly rather spoiled. Do you see how her mother dotes on her? I think she needs that kind of blind devotion.

[RealReality]

21 minutes ago, BallisticNikki said:

What?

They didn't introduce her. She was the baby's godmother and Mike was the godfather. They met at the baptism.

Maybe it's just the hopeless romantic in me (not really) but I think the story of how they met is really spectacular and quite moving. Almost spiritual in a way, as if divinely guided. Your best friend travels halfway around the world to find the love of her life...and maybe promised Natalie hers was close behind? Then maybe the baby, who the friend had all but forced herself to give up hope for, appeared. "And a little child shall lead them," right? I can totally see a pious, emotional, hurt 30 something woman really taking all of the symbolism and pathos and yearning and creating something that is really not there. She wanted this so badly! And he prbly fell for her the moment he saw her. And everything was right in her world. Except.......

I think the emotion is coming from a real place; she really, really, wants to make this fairy tale work and is boiling over in a mad panic as she realizes it's not. 

I think she is still very much into him. And prbly rather spoiled. Do you see how her mother dotes on her? I think she needs that kind of blind devotion.

Even with that being the case, if she wanted a baby RIGHT NOW! she should have been seeking out men.   

Cant get the RIGHT NOW! baby without the man, because RIGHT NOW! baby isn't going to conceive himself or herself.*

She doesn't have a problem moving, she is pretty, fit and educated.  Why wasn't she swimming in suitors?  More compatible suitors with regard to hobbies, lifestyle and/or religion.  She clearly wants RIGHT NOW! baby, so she should have been looking domestically and internationally so she could accomplish that goal.   Because, as I said before, RIGHT NOW! baby isn't going to conceive himself or herself.  

And if she is looking for a man and using all avenues to find a man to make RIGHT NOW! baby with, as a pretty, fit and intelligent woman she should have found plenty of men.  Unless there is something wrong with her and she "crazies" the men right out of her life. 

* - I don't think Natalie is down for egg totin'

Edited December 26, 2019 by RealReality

[Rt66vintage]

@BallisticNikki, I lol'd at your "what?" one line comment above. 

When Angela was in the wedding dress shop, and the salesperson asked her if she would get married in Nigeria. She thought for a second and then furrowed her brow, lowered her head and responded with "WHAT?" Her facial expression & body language reminded me of Tony Soprano. 

@configdotsys, I too was a medical transcriptionist for most of my working years. This became my calling after working in a doctor's office as a young assistant and getting queasy if I had to witness blood or pus. 

[blubld43]

1 hour ago, RoxiP said:

Did anybody else have to google what a cis white man was?

No.  Only because of Caitlyn Jenner (trans vs cis).

[BallisticNikki]

34 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Even with that being the case, if she wanted a baby RIGHT NOW! she should have been seeking out men.   

Cant get the RIGHT NOW! baby without the man, because RIGHT NOW! baby isn't going to conceive himself or herself.*

She doesn't have a problem moving, she is pretty, fit and educated.  Why wasn't she swimming in suitors?  More compatible suitors with regard to hobbies, lifestyle and/or religion.  She clearly wants RIGHT NOW! baby, so she should have been looking domestically and internationally so she could accomplish that goal.   Because, as I said before, RIGHT NOW! baby isn't going to conceive himself or herself.  

And if she is looking for a man and using all avenues to find a man to make RIGHT NOW! baby with, as a pretty, fit and intelligent woman she should have found plenty of men.  Unless there is something wrong with her and she "crazies" the men right out of her life. 

* - I don't think Natalie is down for egg totin'

Just speculating. Maybe she was in a slump. Like depressed since her divorce and not looking. Maybe she had all but given up. And she met Mike and he awoken something in her.

[goofygirl]

RIGHT NOW!baby is my absolute favorite!

[Kiss my mutt]

I seriously doubt Natalie will be helping him with his debt anytime soon. She’d have to be issued a green card first and most likely she’ll manage to get herself knocked up and then say she wants to stay home. 

[RealReality]

36 minutes ago, BallisticNikki said:

Just speculating. Maybe she was in a slump. Like depressed since her divorce and not looking. Maybe she had all but given up. And she met Mike and he awoken something in her.

I'd maybe give her that benefit of the doubt, but based on her behavior i lean more towards her "crazying" away any and all potential suitors.  Except a big guy who is easy going, doesn't think he is in her league and thinks he hit the jackpot.  

Her ability to backpeddle and seek forgiveness when he was ready to dump her also makes me think that this isn't her first time having to pull a quick blanket over her crazy to try to hold a relationship together.  

We shall see of course, but if I'm right the longer the relationship goes the less able she will be to hide the crazy and the less she will even want to.  Big Mike will end up as miserable as he is contemplating. 

[IllLitShips]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:51 PM, bravofan27 said:

Aw, man! I feel for Angela. Getting out of poverty is very difficult, and the stigma associated with those in poverty is very real. I think Angela is doing the best she can, PLUS I think she's funny!  She's not super sophisticated and her thoughts and ideas are simple, but she's not a scholar. I think making fun of Angela because she's in poverty is cruel. She works as a nurse aide overnights and is really trying to get Michael to the US. I actually think she deserves that, and I am rooting for her. She's got common sense, IMO, and great sense of humor, and I think she is very pretty. She gets nasty when she feels insecure, but I'm not holding that against her. It's a defense mechanism and it's not personal to anyone, IMO. 

That was a very nice analysis of Angela. I don't like her temper, but I do agree it is a defense mechanism. 

[BallisticNikki]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:51 PM, bravofan27 said:

Aw, man! I feel for Angela. Getting out of poverty is very difficult, and the stigma associated with those in poverty is very real. I think Angela is doing the best she can, PLUS I think she's funny!  She's not super sophisticated and her thoughts and ideas are simple, but she's not a scholar. I think making fun of Angela because she's in poverty is cruel. She works as a nurse aide overnights and is really trying to get Michael to the US. I actually think she deserves that, and I am rooting for her. She's got common sense, IMO, and great sense of humor, and I think she is very pretty. She gets nasty when she feels insecure, but I'm not holding that against her. It's a defense mechanism and it's not personal to anyone, IMO. 

The problem w/ Angela is that she does not trust Michael. She has caught him in numerous lies (big, small, meaningless, meaningful) in addition to already doubting his sincerity due to the general implausibility of their situation. She has continued to allow Michael "second chances" and invariably, he continues to lie. Obviously, she is going to feel insecure w/ a man who lies. She already has strong reason to believe he is not committed to her and not trying to move to the US for the right reasons (her). And it will only get worse if he moves here bc he will have less and less motivation to keep the charade going as the months wear on. 

So she is resigned to a life of anger, nastiness, violence, rage, insecurity and defense mechanisms? I don't see the common sense or even a shred of rational thought. She's spending every penny she has to sponsor this 30 year old lying, cheating, conniving, opportunistic man who has stated he will stop at nothing to father children??? Why do ppl have empathy for either of these two?

Edited December 28, 2019 by BallisticNikki

[PinkFlamingo]

On 12/26/2019 at 8:27 AM, Baltimore Betty said:

I wonder if Angela calls herself a tax payer because she pays tax on her cartons of cigarettes.

 

Yes, everyone is seriously underestimating Angela’s taxpaying power. With Angela’s sole contribution through cigarette taxes over the past several years the state of Georgia was able to re-pave an entire interstate. So I don’t really blame her for wanting to get something out of that. You know that saying - pave it forward. 😁

Edited December 27, 2019 by PinkFlamingo

[readheaded]

5 hours ago, BallisticNikki said:

The problem w/ Angela is that she does not trust Michael. She has caught him in numerous lies (big, small, meaningless, meaningful) in addition to already doubting his sincerity due to the general implausibility of their situation. She has continued to allow Michael "second chances" and invariably, he continues to lie. Obviously, she is going to feel insecure w/ a man who lies. She already has strong reason to believe he is not committed to her and not trying to move to the US for the right reasons (her). And it will only get worse if he moves here bc he will have less and less motivation to keep the charade going as the months wear on. 

So she is resigned to a life of anger, nastiness, violence, rage, insecurity and defense mechanisms? I don't see the common sense or even a shred of rational thought. She's spending every penny she has to sponsor this 30 year old lying, cheating, conniving, opportunistic man who is has stated he will stop at nothing to father children??? Why do ppl have empathy for either of these two?

My dislike of Angela has nothing to do with her financial status, it's because she's an abusive boor.  Would anyone give her any kind of a pass if she was male?

[DanaMB]

57 minutes ago, readheaded said:

My dislike of Angela has nothing to do with her financial status, it's because she's an abusive boor.  Would anyone give her any kind of a pass if she was male?

Nope. She’s be in jail and off the show. I hate the double standard. 

[PityFree]

1 hour ago, DanaMB said:

Nope. She’s be in jail and off the show. I hate the double standard. 

Agree. It’s ridiculous how common it is on the show. Think back to Anfisa and Nichole hitting their partners. It’s not acceptable for a woman to hit/abuse a man, just like it wouldn’t be acceptable if the sexes were reversed.  

[bravofan27]

Angela and Mike are just two people in the world, who work, and are trying to be happy. How can you not have empathy given the dice they were rolled? Michael in a poor country with no opportunity, and Angela in US poverty, which is nearly impossible to escape. She's trying to give her grandkids a safe environment where they aren't abused. 

[Coltee Gal]

Found this gem on reddit.  You’re welcome. 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Christina]

3 hours ago, DanaMB said:

Nope. She’s be in jail and off the show. I hate the double standard. 

As much as I wish it were true, she wouldn't be off the show if she was a man, either. Check out the media thread for the next season of Before the 90 Days. TLC knew about Josh Duggar for years, too. It wasn't even a secret. Oprah refused to allow them on the show when she found out because they wouldn't say Josh received proper treatment.

TLC does not care as long as it gets ratings, and people talking about it equals ratings. People claim they will boycott Pillow Talk if Colt and Debbie are on, but ratings didn't fall at all, so they'll probably stay in the rotation.

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 12/26/2019 at 9:41 AM, RealReality said:

Id go a step further and say that if this is so important it should have a conversation you have before the first date.  

@RealReality you know I love you, I do, but you should know better than to apply common sense to these fools!!! 

If a woman, back when we were in our 20's, told my now hubby she was a super religious and wanted a baby NOW he would have paid for the meal and left.

We never discussed it while we were dating as well, my horse was out of the gate, if ya know what I mean!  Religion never came up as we were never going to have kids.

[RealReality]

14 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

@RealReality you know I love you, I do, but you should know better than to apply common sense to these fools!!! 

If a woman, back when we were in our 20's, told my now hubby she was a super religious and wanted a baby NOW he would have paid for the meal and left.

We never discussed it while we were dating as well, my horse was out of the gate, if ya know what I mean!  Religion never came up as we were never going to have kids.

But what if she had phrased it sneaky like "hey, how do you feel about aliens?  And babies?  Like if a baby just happened to appear nine months after we slept together, how mad would you be on a scale of 0 to 10?  I'm asking for a friend"

Seriously though, when my sister wanted to settle down she said she was very clear about what she wanted with guys fairly early on.  And her reasoning was sound ...she felt she only had so much time and she didn't want to waste it.  I know she missed out on some guys, but those guys weren't ready to settle down so it wouldn't have been a good match.  Her husband was a good fit, had a good job, wanted kids and was ready to settle down.  

My sister was just as conventionally attractive as Natalie.  My only point being that there is a lid for every pot, even a crazy pot.  But can't find that lid if you're wasting time in the Tupperware section. 🤣😂🤣😂

Edited December 28, 2019 by RealReality

[Mrs. Hanson]

13 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Seriously though, when my sister wanted to settle down she said she was very clear about what she wanted with guys fairly early on.

I was the same way.  Not too early on, but as things progressed, yes.  I am not out to argue or discussion, but I was UBER clear on one particular topic:  spanking.  Just no, no how, no never, nothing.  If a guy was like "I am all for it!"  I would not judge, I was just "let's move it along, I wish you well."  Looking back I should have been more quizzing on my ex on money and exactly how much do you earn and do you have any plan to increase that?  (Answer:  Not much and no.)  But I digress.......

[bichonblitz]

Don't feel too sorry for tax payin' egg totin' Angela. Wasn't too long ago after the first visit to Nigeria was filmed she was caught cheating on Mikul, getting shitfaced drunk with a married man in some dive bar. Apparently Ange was having an affair with this redneck. They got in the car and were stopped by the cops. I can't remember if one or both of them were arrested. I read this on DailyMail and there were pics to go along with the story. A saint she ain't. 

[Kangatush]

On 12/26/2019 at 9:27 AM, Baltimore Betty said:

I wonder if Angela calls herself a tax payer because she pays tax on her cartons of cigarettes.

 

As a smoker, let me tell you that the taxes are no joke.  Over 50% of each pack is taxes.  Doesn't mean I feel I'm owed the ability to import people though.  🙂

 

[DaphneCat]

15 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

Angela and Mike are just two people in the world, who work, and are trying to be happy. How can you not have empathy given the dice they were rolled? Michael in a poor country with no opportunity, and Angela in US poverty, which is nearly impossible to escape. She's trying to give her grandkids a safe environment where they aren't abused. 

Many people who start out in poverty do NOT hit, smash cake in someone's face or throw things when they are angry.  (I would venture to say MOST people, poor or not, do not engage in this behavior.)  Being born in poor circumstances is no excuse for terrible behavior.

And I agree with everybody that anyone with an ounce of sense (pretty much eliminating anyone who goes on this show, I know) discusses the big issues before even thinking about marriage.  Mr. Cat and I talked about the fact that neither of us were going to reproduce before we even considered taking our relationship beyond casual.  While dating, I discovered Mr. Cat hates thinking about money (if you just put more in the checking account than you spend, it will all work out eventually, right?)  Once he discovered I have a very low debt tolerance and hate paying interest or late fees of any kind, he was more than happy to cede control.  Funny, how a few 5 minute conversations can identify ANY major red flags.  If Natalie was really serious about her religion it would have come up sooner - I'm calling BS. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by DaphneCat
Grammar.

[Mu Shu]

18 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

Angela and Mike are just two people in the world, who work, and are trying to be happy. How can you not have empathy given the dice they were rolled? Michael in a poor country with no opportunity, and Angela in US poverty, which is nearly impossible to escape. She's trying to give her grandkids a safe environment where they aren't abused. 

Angela isn’t poor. She has a home, a car, a smartphone, smokes on the reg, a job, and TLC bucks. None of us really know what these people are paid. I suspect people like Angela, who are entertaining to watch, get more money. As they should. 

Im going to draw the line at her being pretty, but I thought she looked nice in her wedding dress, and she does have a lot of charisma. This season would be DOA without her energy. 

[readheaded]

20 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

Angela and Mike are just two people in the world, who work, and are trying to be happy. How can you not have empathy given the dice they were rolled? Michael in a poor country with no opportunity, and Angela in US poverty, which is nearly impossible to escape. She's trying to give her grandkids a safe environment where they aren't abused. 

Having empathy for them and not excusing her abusive behavior aren't mutually exclusive.  I absolutely have empathy for both of them and most of the people on the show for various reasons.  I still don't think Angela's behavior is ok.  If she were a man, would we overlook abusive behavior if he lived in and came from poverty? 

[sonder]

Mursel is a coward. I’m sure we didn’t see the whole conversation of him telling his Mom about Anna’s kids but when his mom said “she took you for a fool” he should have said “no she didn’t, I knew about her kids and still wanted to be with her.” How desperate is Anna? Very. Mursel is way too old to not have at least a wife or ex-wife in the Middle East. I know the culture my whole life. That is not how life works for an Arab, Middle Eastern and definitely not for any Muslim man like the men on past seasons. 

[RealReality]

6 hours ago, sonder said:

Mursel is a coward. I’m sure we didn’t see the whole conversation of him telling his Mom about Anna’s kids but when his mom said “she took you for a fool” he should have said “no she didn’t, I knew about her kids and still wanted to be with her.” How desperate is Anna? Very. Mursel is way too old to not have at least a wife or ex-wife in the Middle East. I know the culture my whole life. That is not how life works for an Arab, Middle Eastern and definitely not for any Muslim man like the men on past seasons. 

I still don't understand why Anna is so hard up that mursel was her best choice.  

I understand that a woman who has a few extra pounds and three kids may not have ALL the suitors.  But she is blonde (which I'm learning is a BFD), she seems financially independent, she apparently cooks and keeps a fairly clean house, she is somewhat intelligent (she has her own business)....she has a few extra pounds but she isn't massive and while she isn't the prettiest woman she isnt ugly.  She isn't living in some area innundated by fit 20 year olds like LA or OC or NYC or even SF or SD.  

This is to say that I'm truly flummoxed as to why an odd little man who is rude to her and her kids and acts like a weirdo is the best she can do?  Someone get her on farmersonly.com

[bravofan27]

So I've been super sleuthing on the internet (really a 10 minute search), and it appears Angela is nurse assistant at a hospice in a neighboring town. It looks like Angela bought her house in 2015 for 16,000. That's the price for tiny old houses in her town. So it's super doubtful she has section 8, and the kids' mom is probably the one that has custody of the kids and gets the welfare. Now, the kids with the mom in jail, Angela may be fostering those kids until the mom gets out, in which case, she would receive a small stipend. Nothing crazy. 

[TwirlyGirly]

On 12/23/2019 at 4:20 PM, BallisticNikki said:

No, never anything from before. It all starts when they marriage begins, regardless of the state.

<snip>

Never say "never"...😉

On 12/24/2019 at 4:48 AM, SabineElisabeth said:

Except, she's not entitled to half of what Michael brings to the marriage. Even in community property states, separate property owned prior to marriage remains separate property after marriage unless something happens that converts it to marital property. <snip>

Welllll...maybe not:

"Connecticut is one of a minority of states that not only divide marital or community property acquired during the course of a marriage, but may also divide assets earned prior to the marriage regardless of which spouse is the title owner. This may result in a significant surprise for spouses who entered a marriage with high-value assets."

https://www.maritallaws.com/states/connecticut/property-division

"Connecticut is different from many other states because of the way the law views property and ownership rights. Under Connecticut divorce law, nearly all property is fair game for division. This includes property acquired before the marriage, property that is only in the name of one person, and other assets such as gifts or inheritances."

https://www.grotonlaw.com/library/the-basics-of-property-division-during-a-connecticut-divorce.cfm

"Unlike other equitable distribution states, Connecticut law permits the court to divide both marital property and separate property. Marital property is property acquired during the marriage, regardless of which spouse acquired it because it is all considered part of the joint venture that is marriage. Generally, separate property is property you acquired before you got married or received as a gift or inheritance during the marriage. Depending on your circumstances, the divorce court may divide only your marital property, but it could also divide a portion -- or all -- of your separate property. This means an inheritance you received -- either before or during your marriage -- is not 'safe' from being divided in divorce simply because it is considered separate property."

https://info.legalzoom.com/inheritance-laws-married-people-connecticut-25619.html

Edited to add: Since the above sources are all websites, I thought it would be helpful to add the CT statute pertaining to this:

'At the time of entering a decree annulling or dissolving a marriage or for legal separation pursuant to a complaint under section 46b-45, the Superior Court may assign to either the husband or wife all or any part of the estate of the other.' Conn. Gen. Stat. § 46b-81"

https://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/Notebooks/Pathfinders/EquitableDistribution.pdf

Edited December 29, 2019 by TwirlyGirly
Added info from CT statute

[Scout Finch]

On 12/24/2019 at 5:04 PM, John M said:

That's what really annoys me about Tania, she thinks she is so special and what she is doing is so important that she can rise above having a legitimate job.

So I work in a very respected charitable field, like the kind of position that people say I would do that if  they were a better person, like say I take care orphans with cancer for a living. People bring me cookies because they think bringing me cookies for doing my job is itself an act of charity. It's still a fucking job, I go to meetings, I do spreadsheets and fill out forms and make copies. Being a professional "good person" is in fact a career she could pursue but people don't for the exact reasons they know they haven't, it kind of sucks to be a professional "good person", so Tania doesn't want to work taking care of the homeless, or at a cancer charity, or for hospice, she thinks she is so special and unique that herbs will free her from HAVING A FUCKING LEGITIMATE JOB.

Shut up Tania, go work at an AIDS charity doing data entry if you want to be a good person without any specialized skills, actually, don't, because you don't want to actually be a good person, you want to be recognized for being a good person and it doesn't fucking happen with the kind of regularity that Tania demands because 99.99% of it is analyzing spreadsheets for way less money than you would make in the private sector.

As someone who also works for a non-profit--15 years doing accounts payable at an international charity--I'm not doing it for brownie points either. I sure as hell would make a lot more money working for a private sector but I do it because I'm committed to the mission, even if all I'm doing are things like cutting a rent assistance check. I can see Tania bragging about working there. It only ever comes up for me if someone asks where I work.

[magemaud]

On 12/26/2019 at 4:37 PM, BallisticNikki said:

They didn't introduce her. She was the baby's godmother and Mike was the godfather. They met at the baptism.

I know they were the godparents, but was Natalie actually IN the US for the Baptism or was it just a courtesy title and they didn't meet in person until after they corresponded and Mike went to the Ukraine? 

[DiamondGirl]

13 hours ago, RealReality said:

This is to say that I'm truly flummoxed as to why an odd little man who is rude to her and her kids and acts like a weirdo is the best she can do?  Someone get her on farmersonly.com.

I’m sorry to mess with the stereotype of the Midwest but Anna lives in a metropolitan area comprised of almost a million people.  There are no farms in the city. There is also an air force base in her specific suburb so lots of men there.

I don’t know why she’s choosing this weirdo but it’s not because there are no men here who would be decent choices.