S04.E13: Whenever You're Ready

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, possibilities said:

What I think the show was trying to portray, and maybe it didn't succeed for everyone, but this is how I took it, is that it's like after a certain point you can no longer maintain your finite form because your bliss exceeds what you can finitely contain. And so you kind of turn into pure energy and it rains down on others, and helps them get a glimmer of that oneness/kindness/happiness/perfection, which adds momentum to their own journey toward that state.

And once you get to that point, trying to contain it amounts to resistance, or struggle, like trying to hold back the tide.

I agree with your entire post but this part in particular is the perfect explanation. 

[TimothyQ]

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

What's ambiguous about this scene?: Eleanor walks through the door, becomes fireflies. We follow the fireflies to Earth. On Earth, a guy goes through is mail, throws a piece out. One of the fireflies lands near his shoulder. He then reconsiders the mail he threw out. He walks somewhere out of his way to deliver it to a stranger, and giving it to the stranger brings the stranger joy. The man then has a smile of satisfaction for having done a nice thing. 

I think there’s also the fact that Michael recognized something of Eleanor in that interaction. I saw it also as: we see parts of those we have loved in the actions of others and that helps keep them alive for us. 

[Wanda]

On 1/31/2020 at 3:27 PM, ClareWalks said:

Someone asked about Michael's text messages, I paused it and he is texting someone named Bobby. Earlier in the convo Michael was enthusiastically trying to get Bobby to join him at the hardware store for a huge sale, but Bobby was like "no, I'm good," but then Bobby says "I'm at the bar. Are you here?" and Michael texts "I'm 5 min away" (reference to his earlier example of the "most human" thing to do).

Shame it wan’t Norm who was waiting for him at the bar

[luna1122]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Also, I really want the sweater Eleanor wore when she was getting ready to go through the door, with a rainbow design on the chest. It was subtle enough not to shout "fairy time!" but still had the symbolism.

https://wornontv.net/171922/

Bloomingdale's $198! 

[Blue Plastic]

5 hours ago, whiporee said:

So, for everyone who thought it dark, or glorifying suicide or that walking through the door meant nothingness or obliteration, I'd politely encourage you to watch it again. Because to quote the famous Spanish moral philosopher Inuedo Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means," and I'd hate for your overall impression or enjoyment of the series to be permenantly tainted by reading something into the work that was not actually there. 

I still find it ambiguous.  All I can go on is what was shown, not what the producer said outside the show itself.  I saw Eleanor dissolve into little golden lights that floated down to earth and caused a stranger to do something nice but small to make Michael slightly happier for a second.  Whoa!  Nirvana!  😩  The scene gave no indication whether or not Eleanor's golden lights could keep going and spark other acts of kindness or if her consciousness was still present or what.

4 hours ago, Schweedie said:

I think the thing that really throws me off the suicide comparison is that -- they're already dead. Literally. They've been dead for most of the show, aside from the brief period we spent with them on Earth in that experiment. They've existed in the afterlife for an infinite amount of time - I can't remember how many Bearimys we ended at, but I'm pretty sure it had basically been an eternity. And when Eleanor finally went through the door it felt like Michael had already spent quite some time on Earth, so it didn't seem like she went straight for it after he went down there, either. I guess I just don't really see the parallels between a suicide and finally being ready for the next phase of your existence after lifetimes and lifetimes of enjoying paradise.

For those of you who hated it, would you have felt differently if our humans hadn't gone through in the episode? Or is it the whole idea of the "final" door in general?

I think what throws me off is that yes, they are dead and their bodies are long gone by the final episode, but their consciousness still existed.  What made them them still exists in the conceit of the show.  Anything that ends that consciousness is basically "killing" them.  This doesn't happen in real life IMO because once the brain is dead then the consciousness is also dead, but in this show your consciousness can "live on" even after your body is dead so IMO it is a second death for that consciousness to be snuffed out.

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

What's ambiguous about this scene?: Eleanor walks through the door, becomes fireflies. We follow the fireflies to Earth. On Earth, a guy goes through is mail, throws a piece out. One of the fireflies lands near his shoulder. He then reconsiders the mail he threw out. He walks somewhere out of his way to deliver it to a stranger, and giving it to the stranger brings the stranger joy. The man then has a smile of satisfaction for having done a nice thing. 

That is what is presented on the screen. A is followed by B, which is followed by C and so on. There's not much open to interpretation about it. 

Is Eleanor conscious in the glowing lights?  Are the glowing lights alive in some sense?  Do they have free will?  Do they continue to exist or do they go out after they perform their tiny, almost insignificant act of kindness that seems kind of small and weak after all that striving and learning.  How is being a floating light more fulfilling than what you could be doing in TGP with some kind of incorporeal body and other people to talk to?

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

RE suicide vs Nirvana: I 100% thought the show might be interpreted as glorifying suicide, and that worries me even now. I'm very glad to read the post from someone who has experience with depression and suicidal ideation and didn't have that reaction!

Well, I've also had these experiences and it did strike me as depicting depression/suicide.  It doesn't necessarily make me think they were glorifying suicide, but the way Jason and Chidi acted after they felt the urge to go through the door very much seemed like depression to me.

The actual going through the door wasn't violent and wasn't being suggested as something you should do while you're still alive on earth, so it doesn't strike me as saying people should kill themselves if they feel like it while living.  But it did seem to show a cessation of consciousness, which is close in my eyes.

I guess I'm just not in the head space to feel that oblivion is perfect bliss and that may lead me to be disturbed by this finale while others might feel comforted by it.  I like the idea of Chidi's wave speech in relation to when we die on earth because I don't think there is an afterlife, but in the universe of this kind of show where there IS an afterlife, once you die you should not have to die again.  That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Wanda]

4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Chidi's dad wasn't even mentioned at any point.  Patricia and Dave weren't in the show.  Jason's mom wasn't in the show (though she never was).  Not everyone had their whole family there.  We never even learned if the marbleized Janets that the judge went through searching for the destroy the world clicker were unmarbelized.  We never say any other type of Janet (and they led a rebellion that helped make the new system possible!) and only one other Good Janet.  Lots of things didn't get namechecked, but it didn't bother me.  I don't think leaving out Eleanor's dad was a big deal--he clearly left them early in her life and her mom was the more important parent in forming her issues and personality.

He didn’t leave them. Her parents divorced but they showed Elinor bringing both of them together when she announced her intention for emancipation. She talks about both her parents and how they could be used to torture each other in the bad place. If he had left them when she was young she wouldn’t know that they were toxic together. Then they had a scene at his funeral where her mother slipped elinor’s boyfriend her hotel key. I use this show to fall asleep every night. Doug wasn’t a one off like Chidi’s dad or Patricia and Dave. He helped define elinor’s life, why she became an Arizona trash bag. The show expectedly hit on that. All I wondered is why they mentioned she and Chidi would have dinner with his parents (so his dad was mentioned) and her mother but not her father. A quick, “shame my father still hasn’t gotten through” or just say mom and dad. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Wanda
Add in a fact

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Blue Plastic said:

It doesn't necessarily make me think they were glorifying suicide, but the way Jason and Chidi acted after they felt the urge to go through the door very much seemed like depression to me.

I think it’s important to note that we didn’t see Chidi feel the urge to go through the door. We didn’t see him until he was well past that point and was just staying because of Eleanor. The way he was when Janet brought him to the door and he walked through without hesitation is more of an indicator of how he felt. And Jason waited thousands of years between the point when he thought it was ready until he actually went through.

I know someone else brought it up already but I think a key aspect is that the point when the decision was made wasn’t necessarily when they were ready. No one was able to actually go through the door before they were actually ready. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Guest

[853fisher]

I did not enjoy this finale, or the season, as much as many others.  Actually, I’ve found that I look forward to these discussions more than to the show, so thank you all very much for them over the years.

 

I have found the show less funny when I needed its humor more than ever, and the way the timeline has been turn about changed the ratio of showing to telling in a way that made it hard for the episodes to keep my focus, even as I remained invested in the characters.  It felt to me like too much payoff for events we did not see, and I never minded because the exposition never felt heavy-handed, but now I feel a little disappointed by the finale’s relative lack of impact on me.  I think things could have been approached differently there.

 

In fact, I think this also has some bearing on perceptions other than “contentment” regarding how Chidi and Jason seemed to be feeling before going through the door.  I think there were more stories to tell in the new neighborhoods, during which we could have seen “contentment” arcs build.  It didn’t work for me, basically, just to be told they had occurred offscreen somewhere.  Especially not, as many have pointed out, when so much time was spent on the test subjects who then mostly disappeared.

 

I did think about suicide in the context of the door, but not in the sense that I believed the show was trying to make those analogies.  We all bring our own baggage to these shows, and some of mine is long-term struggles with mental and physical health.  I do not want to end my life, in part because in the depths of my despair I find that I am always able to imagine something other than failure and pain, but I feel this is a choice I make daily.

 

Ultimately, I save myself with a bit of stubbornness and a bit of ego, among other things.  I do find it comforting to think of achieving rest, but not before my time.  I was very interested to read different perspectives on what the episode conveyed about walking through that door.  A sort of active rest, having been contented to enter that plane, maybe?  I imagined, in the context of the show, that there was supposed to be some sort of self-determination in where the fireflies go, and assumed based on what I generally believe that they continue beyond one task.

 

I wanted to believe that the characters were ready too, but I can't quite conceive of being ready to move on from this plane right now, so I wanted to see more to understand how they achieved that.  After years of buildup to the real Good Place, they rushed out almost as soon as they rushed in, from our point of view.  I can of course fill in those gaps, but I feel cheated somehow.

 

I did like the little aftershow, which I can’t recall any other show getting at the end.  I imagine it served as a bit of a cooldown for those who found themselves deeply touched by the episode.  I don’t think I’d ever seen a few of the cast members “as themselves,” so that was fun.  I do wish the discussion had been a bit meatier and a bit less of a predictable lovefest, but it’s network primetime so I know better than to expect an academic talkback.

 

Actually, I wonder if that affected a few of the responses in the thread along the lines of “I don’t care for these self-congratulatory Hollywood types telling em what I think.”  I think I would like to see that sort of aftershow in the future, just with less sizzle and more steak.

 

However incompletely the show has worked for me lately, I am sorry to see it go.  There's not much else around like it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by 853fisher

[Snapdragon]

I found the ending...serviceable?  It tied up all the loose ends, made enough sense but overall I just found it to be sad.  The entire series, they're working towards being better people and getting to the Good Place and they finally achieve that and it's just not that great?  Really?  I just didn't find it satisfying, especially because we never really got to see these characters be happy.  There were fleeting moments of joy throughout the series, but they were always followed by threats of impending doom or torture.  No one ever got to just breath and enjoy their happiness and when they finally did get to a place where they could, the show skips over those years completely and just fast forwards us to when they're all so bored with their existence that they'd rather not exist at all.  Not a great payoff, in my opinion.

For me personally, a better ending would have been them getting to the Good Place and everything being great for everyone except for Michael, who can't fully enjoy it since he's a demon so Eleanor talks to the Judge and gets him to be reborn as a human (as a baby, not the weird dropping him off on earth as a 72 year old man thing) and we see a montage of his human life that ends with his death, then he wakes up in the waiting room and Eleanor peeks out the door and says, "Michael?  Come on in."  Series comes full circle.  Everyone ends up happy.  

Edited February 2, 2020 by Snapdragon
had to add a few more thoughts

[Toodleoo]

I enjoyed the ending, and felt it soothing in the face of the travails of the present.

Also while I am fairly adept at technical writing, I am Real Bad(tm) at those feelings words, and am so very appreciative of many of the posts in here. Y’all have written some beautiful, eloquent, thought-provoking phrases and paragraphs and theses.

Thank you for putting into words what I was feeling and could not. Your writing has been a balm for my soul.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Toodleoo

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Bloomingdale's $198! 

Thanks for finding it. It's out of my budget, but maybe someday I'll knit one for myself....

---

I agree with everyone who says they rushed through the Good Place part of the series, after lingering a long time on the test subjects and other phases of the show. THat probably does contribute to many people finding the ending unsatisfying.

I've noticed a lot of writers have a hard time writing about happiness, and thus the media is full of stories about conflict and struggle.

I don't think they just ran out of time. I think they maybe genuinely didn't think it would be interesting, which I disagree with and which makes me sad, but I think it's a very common problem with fiction generally. I remember being taught that all stories must have conflict. We have a huge negativity bias, which I definitely think colors what gets put into stories.

By contrast, you're allowed to make happy music or beautiful visual art. But for some reason, writing seems to often get shunted into the world of "tough times, with at best some resolution at the end."

[Charlesman]

22 hours ago, ByTor said:

I've been meh on the last 2 seasons, but I'm a "finish what I started" type and was looking forward to the finale.  Now that I've seen it, I wish I hadn't.  It left me feeling down & quite honestly disturbed.  Not what I want in a sit-com.

 

I feel this. The first couple of seasons were a wild, rollicking funny ride. Hilarious jokes, and stuff I couldn't believe they'd say on TV. And then that style of humor just disappeared. It went from "smart funny" to "see how smart I am" pretty quickly.

 

1 hour ago, 853fisher said:

I have found the show less funny when I needed its humor more than ever, and the way the timeline has been turn about changed the ratio of showing to telling in a way that made it hard for the episodes to keep my focus, even as I remained invested in the characters.  It felt to me like too much payoff for events we did not see, and I never minded because the exposition never felt heavy-handed, but now I feel a little disappointed by the finale’s relative lack of impact on me.  I think things could have been approached differently there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Snapdragon said:

I found the ending...serviceable?  It tied up all the loose ends, made enough sense but overall I just found it to be sad.  The entire series, they're working towards being better people and getting to the Good Place and they finally achieve that and it's just not that great?  Really?  I just didn't find it satisfying, especially because we never really got to see these characters be happy.  There were fleeting moments of joy throughout the series, but they were always followed by threats of impending doom or torture.  No one ever got to just breath and enjoy their happiness and when they finally did get to a place where they could, the show skips over those years completely and just fast forwards us to when they're all so bored with their existence that they'd rather not exist at all.  Not a great payoff, in my opinion.

 

11 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I agree with everyone who says they rushed through the Good Place part of the series, after lingering a long time on the test subjects and other phases of the show. THat probably does contribute to many people finding the ending unsatisfying.

 

Agree with these also. Well said.

[cpcathy]

More episodes of the actual Good Place would have no conflict, nothing urgent to create a whole episode about. And we know that this show goes for urgency, plot wise. Happy people aren’t good TV, for the most part.

[Ailianna]

24 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Thanks for finding it. It's out of my budget, but maybe someday I'll knit one for myself....

---

I agree with everyone who says they rushed through the Good Place part of the series, after lingering a long time on the test subjects and other phases of the show. THat probably does contribute to many people finding the ending unsatisfying.

I've noticed a lot of writers have a hard time writing about happiness, and thus the media is full of stories about conflict and struggle.

I don't think they just ran out of time. I think they maybe genuinely didn't think it would be interesting, which I disagree with and which makes me sad, but I think it's a very common problem with fiction generally. I remember being taught that all stories must have conflict. We have a huge negativity bias, which I definitely think colors what gets put into stories.

By contrast, you're allowed to make happy music or beautiful visual art. But for some reason, writing seems to often get shunted into the world of "tough times, with at best some resolution at the end."

“Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again

[ClareWalks]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

The choice wasn't a full choice, though. If you tried to go through too soon, or inappropriately, or for the wrong reasons, you somehow couldn't do it. Michael tried that, and it didn't work.

I figured it didn't work for Michael because he wasn't human.

[MrWhyt]

5 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I figured it didn't work for Michael because he wasn't human.

they pretty much straight up say that

[kaygeeret]

I have loved everything TGP since the first episode.

I was a bit taken aback by the negative reactions to the last episode, yet at the same time, that reaction has really made me think about the morality, philosophy and simply life decisions involved.  I have been distracted the last few days for sure.

I come from very long lived stock on mom's side.  In my 30's I remember being excited about Aunt Hallie's 100 b'day coming that year.  I was told she didn't want to turn 100 and no celebrations were planned.  Not my typical family reaction....and Aunt Hallie got her wish - no 100 b'day - no suicide, just peace.

My beloved g'ma began praying the rosary every day for death when she was 95.  She got her wish at 96.

My mother was closer and I told her I wanted her to stay.  A week later I told her all was well and I wanted peace for her.  She died the next evening.

My point is for many, but not all, there comes a time when the greatest peace will be achieved thru passing - not suicide - simply life doing what it does.

For those who are left, the reaction will depend on their age at the time.  I did not understand Aunt Hallie until years later.  I did not understand my g'ma at the time.  I was selfish with my mother.

I am 74 and I understand them all.  It is not depression, it is not sadness and, for my family it was not physical pain or loss of cognition.

It is a wish for peace and a sense of completion.

So Jason describing the feeling of air and calm made perfect sense to me.

Both Cidi and Eleanor's reactions made sense to me.

And the absolute final image of the points of light made perfect sense to me.  And brought the most tears of the night to my eyes and cheeks, etc.

What I do think is the most valuable about the ending, perhaps even the last season as a whole, is that we are discussing things that we do not normally discuss.  And that is good.

Life and death are mysteries and yet we spend our entire lives dealing with them or perhaps the idea of them as death is completely unknowable except as the bereaved.

What a lovely experience TGP was for me.

 

 

[marina707]

Usually I hate the "if you didn't like it then clearly you just didn't understand it" comments that come with certain media, and that I've been seeing a lot in the discussion about this finale; I find them to be pretentious and a cop-out. No, people can understand something and still not like it.

But maybe in this case they're not entirely wrong. I do feel like I understand it, but on some level, I don't really get it. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist--I actually believe that just ceasing to exist is most likely what happens (and maybe I'm wrong; obviously, like everyone, I don't really know, but I find all the endless wondering about it to be kind of a waste of time) and it's because I think that our lives right now are all we have that we should enjoy them as much as we can. Honestly, I've always seen the whole afterlife thing as a plot device more than anything, that was basically just the setup for a story about a group of characters trying to be better people, and I never really took it seriously, or at least not literally (I'd always thought it was a metaphor for something else; for awhile I thought it was about politics/the government). So through that lens, I just saw it as a bunch of people with great lives not appreciating them, and in the end it was a finale where a bunch of characters that I'd grown attached to decided to kill themselves. That's not beautiful or touching to me, it's a stupid ending in my opinion.

I said before that I felt like the show was dishonest, but I guess it's my own fault for reading more into it than was intended. Personally, I find theology to be pointless. Either we die and just cease to exist, and that's it, or there's an afterlife (or reincarnation or whatever), but there's no way for us to know while we're alive, so I see trying to figure it out as a waste of time, to be honest.

So I guess I'm just not the target audience for this type of show. If I'd taken it at face value that it was actually about the afterlife and not just using the afterlife as a metaphor to tell a story about a specific group of characters, I wouldn't have bothered watching it.

[Affogato]

45 minutes ago, marina707 said:

So I guess I'm just not the target audience for this type of show. If I'd taken it at face value that it was actually about the afterlife and not just using the afterlife as a metaphor to tell a story about a specific group of characters, I wouldn't have bothered watching it.

I find it interesting that so many commenters are atheist. I am. It is refreshing. O’ve commented that there is a lot of Buddhism in what happened in this show and Buddha was an atheist. He was not above people comforting themselves with stories, like reincarnation and nirvana, while not believing in them himself. I want to point out that I have only a general knowledge of Buddhism, I’m neither a follower or an expert.   

i think the show is about everyone being able to learn and grow as a person and what we owe each other. I think it is about what happens in earth. I think the fireflies are supposed to be a happy ending but also an indication that if we try to be good people our influence goes on after we die. 
 

I think the fantasy of a world where we have all the time in the world to learn and grow and become our best selves is a fantasy, but has application in the real world. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Affogato

[The Companion]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE Eleanor "being left" by Chidi, and how sad that made her (and me, at first): I think, now, that for Eleanor to really be healed of her lifetime trauma, she had to both experience real love from others, and also discover that she was able to embody love within herself, so that she wasn't dependent on a particular external source. As long as she defined her happiness as CHIDI, there was always an element of... fear, or dependency, or incompletion? But once she experienced the pain of Chidi leaving, she did discover that love was available to her even in his absence. That's an amazing freedom to have within  yourself, to realize you don't have to cling, you will be okay no matter what comes and goes. It actually made her complete, in a way.

I think it's a both/and situation: she needed to have ALL the experiences, of being loved by someone else AND of being okay without that person.

RE the fireflies: I saw it as not just one tiny act, but that the sparks (not just one tiny spark, but many sparks equivalent to all of Eleanor)-- proportionate to all her Bearamies of existence-- going into the world and being gifted to others in multiple ways. It's like if you become perfect and your perfection adds momentum to the perfecting of everyone else's character and experience of existence.

RE suicide vs Nirvana: I 100% thought the show might be interpreted as glorifying suicide, and that worries me even now. I'm very glad to read the post from someone who has experience with depression and suicidal ideation and didn't have that reaction!

I am not trying to convince anyone who thinks otherwise, but for those who don't really get what made me personally react more toward the bliss/Nirvana side, but who are curious about it, this is what I can say about that issue....

Have you ever had a moment where you felt totally at one with someone else? Maybe when you were in love, or during sex. Or just... any time you felt really happy, in a moment you wanted to last forever? That is bliss. And I think that if you got to where you had absolutely gotten to that point, and it DID last forever, you would have nothing left to "do" or strive for. It would all be the same-- in a good way. It's not boredom.

What I think the show was trying to portray, and maybe it didn't succeed for everyone, but this is how I took it, is that it's like after a certain point you can no longer maintain your finite form because your bliss exceeds what you can finitely contain. And so you kind of turn into pure energy and it rains down on others, and helps them get a glimmer of that oneness/kindness/happiness/perfection, which adds momentum to their own journey toward that state.

And once you get to that point, trying to contain it amounts to resistance, or struggle, like trying to hold back the tide.

What I find most interesting about the way the show handled it, is that they made it a conscious choice for people to allow themselves to burst into fireflies, rather than something that just kind of happens when they attain a certain degree of "completion".

I think that element of choice was supposed to make it more comforting to people, so they didn't feel like anything was being forced on them. But it accidentally made a lot of people see it as a glorification of suicide, and obscured the bliss part.

The choice wasn't a full choice, though. If you tried to go through too soon, or inappropriately, or for the wrong reasons, you somehow couldn't do it. Michael tried that, and it didn't work. Tahani thought she was ready but then she suddenly realized she wasn't. Jason was ready but then he stopped so he could give Janet the necklace, and yet he didn't go back-- he stayed in the peaceful place of bliss until Janet returned to the doorway.

I think the doorway and the fireflies, and how they were shown to operate, tried to show that, once you get to a certain point, nature takes its course one way or another. And what the show was trying to offer was that you can't end it too soon, or in the wrong way, and you can't go back, or stay too long, but when it's time, when everything is perfect, it just happens, and what happens is your perfection overflows yourself and contributes to others.

I think that making it a choice also made it seem like a rejection of the happiness they'd achieved, rather than like a natural evolution to the next phase of existence.

If the show had made it so that people who had reached their absolute perfection just spontaneously popped and turned into sparks that landed everywhere and made others happier, I wonder how that would have been received. Would it have looked different? It would not have invoked the suicide comparison, but it might have set off a feeling of anxiety, never knowing when it would happen.

There might not be a way to portray these ideas that would work perfectly.

 

I loved that so much! Things like that are what made the show stay grounded and funny despite its other aspirations.

Also, I really want the sweater Eleanor wore when she was getting ready to go through the door, with a rainbow design on the chest. It was subtle enough not to shout "fairy time!" but still had the symbolism.

I would have hated the burst into lights solution. I like that they had agency and got to say goodbye 

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I think it’s important to note that we didn’t see Chidi feel the urge to go through the door. We didn’t see him until he was well past that point and was just staying because of Eleanor. The way he was when Janet brought him to the door and he walked through without hesitation is more of an indicator of how he felt. And Jason waited thousands of years between the point when he thought it was ready until he actually went through.

I know someone else brought it up already but I think a key aspect is that the point when the decision was made wasn’t necessarily when they were ready. No one was able to actually go through the door before they were actually ready. 

Yes, we didn't see anyone go through who wasn't ready, and I think it was heavily implied that they wouldn't have done so 

1 hour ago, kaygeeret said:

I have loved everything TGP since the first episode.

I was a bit taken aback by the negative reactions to the last episode, yet at the same time, that reaction has really made me think about the morality, philosophy and simply life decisions involved.  I have been distracted the last few days for sure.

I come from very long lived stock on mom's side.  In my 30's I remember being excited about Aunt Hallie's 100 b'day coming that year.  I was told she didn't want to turn 100 and no celebrations were planned.  Not my typical family reaction....and Aunt Hallie got her wish - no 100 b'day - no suicide, just peace.

My beloved g'ma began praying the rosary every day for death when she was 95.  She got her wish at 96.

My mother was closer and I told her I wanted her to stay.  A week later I told her all was well and I wanted peace for her.  She died the next evening.

My point is for many, but not all, there comes a time when the greatest peace will be achieved thru passing - not suicide - simply life doing what it does.

For those who are left, the reaction will depend on their age at the time.  I did not understand Aunt Hallie until years later.  I did not understand my g'ma at the time.  I was selfish with my mother.

I am 74 and I understand them all.  It is not depression, it is not sadness and, for my family it was not physical pain or loss of cognition.

It is a wish for peace and a sense of completion.

So Jason describing the feeling of air and calm made perfect sense to me.

Both Cidi and Eleanor's reactions made sense to me.

And the absolute final image of the points of light made perfect sense to me.  And brought the most tears of the night to my eyes and cheeks, etc.

What I do think is the most valuable about the ending, perhaps even the last season as a whole, is that we are discussing things that we do not normally discuss.  And that is good.

Life and death are mysteries and yet we spend our entire lives dealing with them or perhaps the idea of them as death is completely unknowable except as the bereaved.

What a lovely experience TGP was for me.

 

 

I wonder if my perspective on death doesn't contribute to me being more comfortable with the door. I used to do estate planning work and many of my clients were facing a terminal diagnosis or a debilitating medical condition. Perhaps I am just more comfortable with death and end of life decisions.

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't think they just ran out of time. I think they maybe genuinely didn't think it would be interesting, which I disagree with and which makes me sad, but I think it's a very common problem with fiction generally. I remember being taught that all stories must have conflict. We have a huge negativity bias, which I definitely think colors what gets put into stories.

By contrast, you're allowed to make happy music or beautiful visual art. But for some reason, writing seems to often get shunted into the world of "tough times, with at best some resolution at the end."

This is apples and oranges, though, because of duration. A song is typically a few minutes; a sculpture or painting is one image. There are many poems and short stories that are simply happy and beautiful. The brevity means it's okay to just have the one thing. But if, for instance, the music is taking the form of an opera or musical, then there's some type of conflict, even in the comedic ones. It's not so much about negativity as it is about being realistic about change: Nothing stays static, the one constant is change. Now if something is short, then change doesn't need to be included, but if something is longer, then it has to be. Or the static element will eventually get old. There's a reason we don't just play our favorite song on loop or just eat our favorite food endlessly and to the exclusion of any other.

14 minutes ago, marina707 said:

Maybe it's because I'm an atheist--I actually believe that just ceasing to exist is most likely what happens (and maybe I'm wrong; obviously, like everyone, I don't really know, but I find all the endless wondering about it to be kind of a waste of time) and it's because I think that our lives right now are all we have that we should enjoy them as much as we can. Honestly, I've always seen the whole afterlife thing as a plot device more than anything, that was basically just the setup for a story about a group of characters trying to be better people, and I never really took it seriously, or at least not literally (I'd always thought it was a metaphor for something else; for awhile I thought it was about politics/the government). So through that lens, I just saw it as a bunch of people with great lives not appreciating them, and in the end it was a finale where a bunch of characters that I'd grown attached to decided to kill themselves. That's not beautiful or touching to me, it's a stupid ending in my opinion.

I said before that I felt like the show was dishonest, but I guess it's my own fault for reading more into it than was intended. Personally, I find theology to be pointless. Either we die and just cease to exist, and that's it, or there's an afterlife (or reincarnation or whatever), but there's no way for us to know while we're alive, so I see trying to figure it out as a waste of time, to be honest.

So I guess I'm just not the target audience for this type of show. If I'd taken it at face value that it was actually about the afterlife and not just using the afterlife as a metaphor to tell a story about a specific group of characters, I wouldn't have bothered watching it.

I'm an atheist too, and quite happy in my atheism, completely fine with the idea that this life on earth is all that there is. And I never took this show to be a metaphor; I accepted it as an exploration of (the show's concept of) an afterlife. But I was very interested throughout the series and loved the finale even though I don't think it's what actually happens after we die. I mean, if one takes it broadly enough, pretty much any fiction could be said to be pointless because none of the characters are real, the story didn't really happen, it's set in a world that doesn't exist, or things happen that aren't possible in the real world.

My own personal take was that Jason, Chidi and Eleanor ultimately felt sated, rather than suicidal. They were ready for the next thing, which was not ceasing to exist, but becoming part of the greater universe, like a wave's water going back into the ocean. Eleanor changing into sparks of light will remain with me for a long time.

[marina707]

33 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I'm an atheist too, and quite happy in my atheism, completely fine with the idea that this life on earth is all that there is. And I never took this show to be a metaphor; I accepted it as an exploration of (the show's concept of) an afterlife. But I was very interested throughout the series and loved the finale even though I don't think it's what actually happens after we die. I mean, if one takes it broadly enough, pretty much any fiction could be said to be pointless because none of the characters are real, the story didn't really happen, it's set in a world that doesn't exist, or things happen that aren't possible in the real world.

My own personal take was that Jason, Chidi and Eleanor ultimately felt sated, rather than suicidal. They were ready for the next thing, which was not ceasing to exist, but becoming part of the greater universe, like a wave's water going back into the ocean. Eleanor changing into sparks of light will remain with me for a long time.

I don't know how or why I got it into my head that it was a metaphor, but that was the way I interpreted it, for whatever reason. Obviously I was wrong.

It's not the show itself that I found pointless, it's the subject of the show. I mean, you could say all fiction is pointless, I suppose, it depends on your perspective. If fiction entertains someone, or teaches them something new, or gives them a new way of thinking about something, I think it serves a purpose. Religion/theology, for me, doesn't serve a purpose, and given that that's what this show was about, I ultimately felt like it was a waste of time. Obviously other people's mileage varies.

I personally don't see much of a distinction. To me, having a consciousness and an individual mind/thoughts is what defines "existing". Becoming part of the universe and no longer having those things is the same thing as ceasing to exist in my opinion, but obviously everyone has their own perspective.

[pennben]

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

 

What I think the show was trying to portray, and maybe it didn't succeed for everyone, but this is how I took it, is that it's like after a certain point you can no longer maintain your finite form because your bliss exceeds what you can finitely contain. And so you kind of turn into pure energy and it rains down on others, and helps them get a glimmer of that oneness/kindness/happiness/perfection, which adds momentum to their own journey toward that state.

Well, that’s absolutely wonderful. Thank you for capturing that notion that’s seemingly elusive. Bravo and thank you. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by pennben

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, marina707 said:

I don't know how or why I got it into my head that it was a metaphor, but that was the way I interpreted it, for whatever reason. Obviously I was wrong.

From the perspective of the people behind the show you’re right. It is supposed to examine questions of morality and ethics and the afterlife is just the setting chosen. Mike Schur has said on the podcast that he is not spiritual and doesn’t believe in an afterlife. 

[possibilities]

I think it's entirely possible to watch this show and use it as a thought experiment: what if this was true? What would that be like? It doesn't mean you think it's really that way, but it's an exercise to see how that would impact things if it was, or if you thought it was. It's a fun experiment, a change in perspective. Doesn't mean you have to adopt it permanently, but I absolutely think that what people believe does influence how they live their lives, though sometimes people with similar beliefs make differing choices, which in itself is an interesting phenomenon and says something about them as individuals.

I also think the show did a lot more than talk about death or the after life. It talked about ethics, and relationships, and values for the living.

@Affogato, what teaching are you referring to in your saying Buddha didn't believe in what he taught? I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but nothing in my studies leads me to think it's true that Buddha preached what he didn't believe, or that he condoned anyone adopting illusions in order to make themselves comfortable.

[Harry24]

So this was me, getting ready for bed Thursday night:

(Catching my face in the mirror): Wait.  Didn't I wear makeup today?  (Pause)  Oh, right.  The Good Place finale.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think it's entirely possible to watch this show and use it as a thought experiment: what if this was true? What would that be like? It doesn't mean you think it's really that way, but it's an exercise to see how that would impact things if it was, or if you thought it was. It's a fun experiment, a change in perspective. Doesn't mean you have to adopt it permanently, but I absolutely think that what people believe does influence how they live their lives, though sometimes people with similar beliefs make differing choices, which in itself is an interesting phenomenon and says something about them as individuals.

I also think the show did a lot more than talk about death or the after life. It talked about ethics, and relationships, and values for the living.

@Affogato, what teaching are you referring to in your saying Buddha didn't believe in what he taught? I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but nothing in my studies leads me to think it's true that Buddha preached what he didn't believe, or that he condoned anyone adopting illusions in order to make themselves comfortable.

There are many varieties of buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism is full of what are essentially demi gods and zen not so much. I know this. Also not comfortable, but to alleviate suffering. 
 

There is a zen story where his companion addresses the Buddha, asking him if it doesn’t bother him that people worship him as a god when he keeps on saying he isn’t a god and the Buddha says something to the effect that yeah, he has come to realize that at that stage they find it comforting and he hopes they get past it. Deep sigh is implied.

also it has to do with a book I read once Talking about all the major religions being created to establish social patterns that were essentially disappearing  judaism, for example, coming to the fore in the time of David and cities, to keep continuity with the nomad shepherds of the past. Buddhism, as established by siddhartha, retaining the society of the small Indian towns t a time when cities were again becoming prevalent. So what we owe each other, to take care of the poor and support the sick  — small towns are small and support their people in a way cities don’t. Ok I’m not prepared to argue this on a scholarly level  

anyway, here is an article that contains some of the concepts  the second, I think, is admittedly the parable that I probably derive the info about suffering. 

fullhttps://www.learnreligions.com/atheism-and-devotion-in-buddhism-449718

https://www.diamondway-buddhism.org/buddhism/buddha/

Edited February 2, 2020 by Affogato

[companionenvy]

I want to preface this by noting that I'm starting from two assumptions:

1) Forms of continued existence that don't include some level of personal consciousness are to me equivalent to non-existence. It can be comforting to think of becoming part of the Earth, or continuing to affect others, but it is still the end of what meaningfully makes you "you."

2) Based on what was established last week, there's not a lot of room, IMO, for looking at the door as anything but a means of ending your individual existence. This isn't a case of "we don't know what's out there/death is the next great adventure." A group of people and entities decided that eternal life was driving people mad, and gave them an exit door.

So to me, acceptance of the finale predicated on either the idea that the gang would be living on in some meaningful way or on the idea that the door wasn't really the end falls flat.

Given that I don't believe those things, to me, this ending--three of our four deciding to walk though the door--was bound to be either desperately sad or woefully unconvincing. 

Possibility 1: Life becomes so unbearable for the characters, after a given number of bearimies, that they choose non-existence to end their (after)lives of torment. 

Possibility 2: Life is still pretty damn good in TGP, and the characters nonetheless choose to irrevocably and eternally end their existences in preference to remaining around with their loved ones in Paradise.

Obviously, we got possibility two - and so for me, it was unconvincing.

First of all, I'm not actually convinced these characters were "done," except in a fairly shallow sense of that word. One of the most exciting things, to me, about TGP is the idea that you could try out other types of roles and lives -- once you got tired of those things that you loved most on Earth, you could embark on any number of other experiences that would never have been available or immediately appealing to you and maybe never even existed while you were on Earth. Other than Tahani, who notably is the only one who doesn't choose to go through the door, it really didn't play out that way at all. It seems like Chidi, for instance, spent time reading and teaching great works of philosophy, taking part in cultural experiences that would have appealed to him on Earth, and spending time with loved ones. But that strikes me as a pretty narrow use of unlimited opportunity. Okay, maybe Chidi wouldn't have been satisfied moving on to reading trash. But what about approaching the mysteries of the universe through becoming a master physicist, as well as a philosopher? What about writing a novel? Becoming an explorer, now that he is free of all the terrible anxieties that dogged him during life? And you know what, if he did want to spend a few Bearimies luxuriating in nonsense - well, there's a reason people have guilty pleasures, and in an eternal world, there's really nothing wrong with just spending a ton of time on pure pleasure. But once that wore thin, there would still be the opportunity to put aside personal pleasure and live for helping others.

Would that be satisfying for eternity? I don't know, frankly; the idea of eternal experience is inconceivable to me. But what I saw on screen were characters who still seemed pretty meaningfully similar to the ones we had known all along, and who didn't seem to have exhausted the nearly infinite possibilities available to them. 

And clearly, Jason, Chidi and Eleanor weren't supposed to be miserable. They were fulfilled, and maybe couldn't enjoy or appreciate things as intensely as they had before that moment arrived. But...why would eternal non-existence be in any way preferable to a vaguely pleasant if no longer entirely satisfying existence in paradise? Jason enjoyed his dance party. Chidi did like going to Rome and Paris, and spending time with Eleanor. Eleanor felt good about helping people. So why is ending everything, forever, better than that? So again, it comes back to the central contradiction: eternal nothingness makes sense if they are actually unhappy, in which case their choice is sad and does indeed resemble human suicide. But it really doesn't make sense if they are happy but feel "complete." Ceasing to exist is not a form of ultimate self-actualization. It is annihilation.

So what they give us, as far as I'm concerned, isn't akin to suicide, since it isn't out of despair - but if it isn't out of despair, it is very hard to see why this is the right or a sensible choice.

[Affogato]

31 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I want to preface this by noting that I'm starting from two assumptions:

1) Forms of continued existence that don't include some level of personal consciousness are to me equivalent to non-existence. It can be comforting to think of becoming part of the Earth, or continuing to affect others, but it is still the end of what meaningfully makes you "you."

2) Based on what was established last week, there's not a lot of room, IMO, for looking at the door as anything but a means of ending your individual existence. This isn't a case of "we don't know what's out there/death is the next great adventure." A group of people and entities decided that eternal life was driving people mad, and gave them an exit door.

So to me, acceptance of the finale predicated on either the idea that the gang would be living on in some meaningful way or on the idea that the door wasn't really the end falls flat.

Given that I don't believe those things, to me, this ending--three of our four deciding to walk though the door--was bound to be either desperately sad or woefully unconvincing. 

Possibility 1: Life becomes so unbearable for the characters, after a given number of bearimies, that they choose non-existence to end their (after)lives of torment. 

Possibility 2: Life is still pretty damn good in TGP, and the characters nonetheless choose to irrevocably and eternally end their existences in preference to remaining around with their loved ones in Paradise.

Obviously, we got possibility two - and so for me, it was unconvincing.

First of all, I'm not actually convinced these characters were "done," except in a fairly shallow sense of that word. One of the most exciting things, to me, about TGP is the idea that you could try out other types of roles and lives -- once you got tired of those things that you loved most on Earth, you could embark on any number of other experiences that would never have been available or immediately appealing to you and maybe never even existed while you were on Earth. Other than Tahani, who notably is the only one who doesn't choose to go through the door, it really didn't play out that way at all. It seems like Chidi, for instance, spent time reading and teaching great works of philosophy, taking part in cultural experiences that would have appealed to him on Earth, and spending time with loved ones. But that strikes me as a pretty narrow use of unlimited opportunity. Okay, maybe Chidi wouldn't have been satisfied moving on to reading trash. But what about approaching the mysteries of the universe through becoming a master physicist, as well as a philosopher? What about writing a novel? Becoming an explorer, now that he is free of all the terrible anxieties that dogged him during life? And you know what, if he did want to spend a few Bearimies luxuriating in nonsense - well, there's a reason people have guilty pleasures, and in an eternal world, there's really nothing wrong with just spending a ton of time on pure pleasure. But once that wore thin, there would still be the opportunity to put aside personal pleasure and live for helping others.

Would that be satisfying for eternity? I don't know, frankly; the idea of eternal experience is inconceivable to me. But what I saw on screen were characters who still seemed pretty meaningfully similar to the ones we had known all along, and who didn't seem to have exhausted the nearly infinite possibilities available to them. 

And clearly, Jason, Chidi and Eleanor weren't supposed to be miserable. They were fulfilled, and maybe couldn't enjoy or appreciate things as intensely as they had before that moment arrived. But...why would eternal non-existence be in any way preferable to a vaguely pleasant if no longer entirely satisfying existence in paradise? Jason enjoyed his dance party. Chidi did like going to Rome and Paris, and spending time with Eleanor. Eleanor felt good about helping people. So why is ending everything, forever, better than that? So again, it comes back to the central contradiction: eternal nothingness makes sense if they are actually unhappy, in which case their choice is sad and does indeed resemble human suicide. But it really doesn't make sense if they are happy but feel "complete." Ceasing to exist is not a form of ultimate self-actualization. It is annihilation.

So what they give us, as far as I'm concerned, isn't akin to suicide, since it isn't out of despair - but if it isn't out of despair, it is very hard to see why this is the right or a sensible choice.

Because once you do everything again you end up in the same place? My mind does not grasp eternity but yes all of them could have, Like tahani and michael, embarked on a new life, leaned physics or woodworking or become a master skateboarder. Tried pansexuality, learned guitar, or painting. Made new friends and lovers. And would maybe have ended up at the door at the end. For purposes of storytelling the ending we saw is neater. 

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Because once you do everything again you end up in the same place? My mind does not grasp eternity but yes all of them could have, Like tahani and michael, embarked on a new life, leaned physics or woodworking or become a master skateboarder. Tried pansexuality, learned guitar, or painting. Made new friends and lovers. And would maybe have ended up at the door at the end. For purposes of storytelling the ending we saw is neater. 

Maybe you do end up in the same place; logically, you would. But since we don't see that, and instead see Chidi, at least, going through the door seemingly not having tried anything really off-brand or outside-the-box for him, it just makes the decision kind of baffling. Sure, you might have come to the same place in another 10 lifetimes, but...then why not wait the ten lifetimes? Why not become an architect, like Tahani?

I still have the sense that the creators wanted to have their cake and eat it to. They believe that eternal life would actually become a curse, which is legitimate. But they're not willing to actually show these characters suffering under the "curse," which in turn makes their decision to end it all bizarre. I mean, yes, the residents know they have the option of the door now, which we are theoretically supposed to assume would stop them from the kind of despair we saw last week--but if they don't suffer, why go through the door at all? It isn't like they can't just decide to go to the door if and when they get to the point that they really are suffering.

I also echo the sentiment from earlier in the thread that Jason calling out to a Chidi who had already stepped through the door was disturbing to me, since it would imply he didn't really understand the consequences of what he was doing.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I also echo the sentiment from earlier in the thread that Jason calling out to a Chidi who had already stepped through the door was disturbing to me, since it would imply he didn't really understand the consequences of what he was doing.

Well. Chidi had become decisive and Jason had become Jianju. Chidi made his decision immediately. Jason knew Chidi’s essence was not lost.  it makes sense in the story. 
 

also

as Robert Altman’s teenaged son wrote: “suicide is painless, it brings on many changes, and I can take and leave it if I choose. And you can take or leave it if you choose.”

even on earth the choice, the free will, is important to many people. 

[853fisher]

Regarding one response I read a few times to those who felt there was too much telling and not enough showing WRT characters reaching contentment in the real good place: I can generally agree with the broadly stated premise that “happy people don’t make good TV.” Maybe “happy” is too simple a word, but there’s a reason well remembered series don’t have plots like “Scooby, Shaggy, and the gang enjoy a pleasant day at the beach without any mysteries” or “Lucy and Ricky calmly discuss her interest in a show business career.” Several weeks of the foursome just enjoying themselves would likely not work for this show, at least for most viewers.

But I still think, narratively speaking, that the characters could have been in the real good place longer from our perspective, perhaps with conflict principally experienced by other characters they ran across. (I’m thinking of a reworked version of the test subjects, with the stakes realigned: maybe they do not know about the new system somehow.) We could have observed, through small character beats, their ongoing responses and how things developed. It’s all very easy for me to type this, of course.

Edited February 2, 2020 by 853fisher

[iMonrey]

Quote

What's ambiguous about this scene?: Eleanor walks through the door, becomes fireflies.

I honestly didn't interpret it that way until I started reading through these posts. To me it just looked like a scene transition with special effects to highlight the shift from heaven to earth. I didn't perceive the CGI lights to be Eleanor herself, just a sparkly effect to make the transition ethereal looking.

[Ohiopirate02]

52 minutes ago, 853fisher said:

 

But I still think, narratively speaking, that the characters could have been in the real good place longer from our perspective, perhaps with conflict principally experienced by other characters they ran across. (I’m thinking of a reworked version of the test subjects, with the stakes realigned: maybe they do not know about the new system somehow.) We could have observed, through small character beats, their ongoing responses and how things developed. It’s all very easy for me to type this, of course.

I am curious about how much was written and shot for the individual montages of Jason, Tahani, and Chidi.  What was shown was enough for me to envision how these characters spent their time in the Good Place,  but I can also see why others would need more.  The writers could definitely have tweaked the story to give us more, but I don't exactly know where they should have sped things up earlier in the season.  At least for me, I would not have needed a whole episode for this.  

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Affogato said:

O’ve commented that there is a lot of Buddhism in what happened in this show and Buddha was an atheist. He was not above people comforting themselves with stories, like reincarnation and nirvana, while not believing in them himself. I want to point out that I have only a general knowledge of Buddhism, I’m neither a follower or an expert.   

Buddha wasn’t an atheist. He didn’t believe in a single creator god but he did talk about gods. He doesn’t comfortably fit most theology definitions but I have seen him described as a nontheist. His thought that god was unnecessary to achieving enlightenment. 

I’m curious why you say that Buddha did not believe in nirvana. I know that many believe that he was not referring to reincarnation when he talked about cycles of death and rebirth but thought that nirvana was central to his teachings. 

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I also echo the sentiment from earlier in the thread that Jason calling out to a Chidi who had already stepped through the door was disturbing to me, since it would imply he didn't really understand the consequences of what he was doing.

Based on his goodby speech Jason did understand what he was doing. To me his last line was just a very Jason think to say. A sweet and simple if slightly illogical wish to dissolve into the universe with a friend.

“That was special. I'll never forget this night. Until I walk through the door and dissolve into the universe.”

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But they're not willing to actually show these characters suffering under the "curse," which in turn makes their decision to end it all bizarre. I mean, yes, the residents know they have the option of the door now, which we are theoretically supposed to assume would stop them from the kind of despair we saw last week--but if they don't suffer, why go through the door at all? It isn't like they can't just decide to go to the door if and when they get to the point that they really are suffering.

I suppose that the point was to not suffer and to go out at the peak just before the decline. I think the interpretation of the ending is going to be closely related to how a person views death. Personally I don’t fear being dead even if that means ceasing to exist so I didn’t need to see them suffer to explain why they walked through the door. Them simple being ready is enough for me because I’d like to believe I could reach that point given enough time. 

I think it’s so interesting that this ending has sparked so many viewpoints and discussions. It really is true to ethical questions that show has presented since day one. There can be endless debate but never one final answer because everyone has their own personal truth. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

12 hours ago, possibilities said:

 

I think it's entirely possible to watch this show and use it as a thought experiment: what if this was true? What would that be like? It doesn't mean you think it's really that way, but it's an exercise to see how that would impact things if it was, or if you thought it was. It's a fun experiment, a change in perspective. Doesn't mean you have to adopt it permanently, but I absolutely think that what people believe does influence how they live their lives, though sometimes people with similar beliefs make differing choices, which in itself is an interesting phenomenon and says something about them as individuals.

I also think the show did a lot more than talk about death or the after life. It talked about ethics, and relationships, and values for the living.

 

This is the way I feel. To me the afterlife is an interesting setting to explore questions of what I believe and how I want to live my life. The show presented ideas that resonates in my day to day life so the specifics of the system were ultimately irrelevant. 

[Charlesman]

Another thing that's been nagging me about the finale;

I get why Lisa Kudrow et. al would be so bored with the stale Good Place, seeing as no one new had entered in millennia. But once the doors opened up thanks to Team Cockroach, wasn't the novelty of new people worth something? Shouldn't that keep things interesting for as long as new people keep getting in? 

And for Team Cockroach, after fighting Judge Gen so hard to not reboot the universe, after they win, they... just didn't care to see what happens with humanity? There was no desire to hang out for tens of thousands of years just to see what the humans got up to? If we ever invent time travel or spaceships that leave the solar system? If we ever solve war, famine or racism? No care at all? No desire to hang around and see if their system continues to work once morality on Earth changes? No interest in seeing where evolution takes the species?

Maybe it's because no one on Team Cockroach had children. I'm surprised Schur didn't consider seeing he has kids... what it would be like to watch all your descendants and what becomes of the world they left behind. (I'm reminded of what Spielberg said about the ending of "Close Encounters", having Richard Dreyfuss leave his family to board the UFO came from childless Speilberg. Once he had kids, he regretted that ending, since he couldn't believe he'd make that choice.)

I would get it, once we reach the Eventual Heat Death of the Universe (and the end of Maximum Derek!), and there were no more people to save, yeah, maybe things get boring after a few dozen thousand bearimys of that. (If you even buy into bearimys, but since Time is a dimension of this physical universe and doesn't necessarily even exist in the afterlife, I'm having a conflict over exactly what that is... my personal beliefs on that are different than the show's, in some ways.) 

But my curiosity to see if we ever make Star Trek the Next Generation real would keep me hanging on for much longer than Team Cockroach seemed to care about what they left behind and worked so hard to save.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Charlesman

[chaifan]

34 minutes ago, Charlesman said:

And for Team Cockroach, after fighting Judge Gen so hard to not reboot the universe, after they win, they... just didn't care to see what happens with humanity? There was no desire to hang out for tens of thousands of years just to see what the humans got up to? If we ever invent time travel or spaceships that leave the solar system? If we ever solve war, famine or racism? No care at all? No desire to hang around and see if their system continues to work once morality on Earth changes? No interest in seeing where evolution takes the species?

Maybe it's because no one on Team Cockroach had children. I'm surprised Schur didn't consider seeing he has kids... what it would be like to watch all your descendants and what becomes of the world they left behind. (I'm reminded of what Spielberg said about the ending of "Close Encounters", having Richard Dreyfuss leave his family to board the UFO came from childless Speilberg. Once he had kids, he regretted that ending, since he couldn't believe he'd make that choice.)

 

They were there for at least 3,000 Jerimy Berimy's, so it's quite possible they did see a lot of what you mention.  We have no idea how a Jerimy Berimy equates to our linear time, but we know it's different.  So it would have been 1,000 years or 10,000 years , or 10 years.  We simply don't know.  Just because Michael appeared in modern day doesn't give us any indication of how much time has passed on earth since the Cockroaches saved the universe.  (or how much time passed between their arrival and saving the universe, since there were 800+ reboots.) 

I think it was intentional that the 4 main characters not have kids, or even spouses/significant others, because that would have changed everything about the whole series, not just the end.  But, if they did have kids, then they would have long ago found out about what they did on earth - the only question would be whether they made it to the Good Place yet.   (Like Tahani's sister and parents.) 

I like the discussion the finale has spawned, but I feel some people are reading way too much into all of this.  It's a TV show.  It doesn't necessarily represent what Schur personally believes, just what he believed would make a good TV show.  I think he succeeded in making a very entertaining show, that had the added bonus of being thought provoking.  For me, the ending was perfect.  It doesn't answer my existential questions about the universe, but I wasn't expecting it to, I didn't want/need it to.  It ended the show in a satisfying way.  In the show's own terms, by the time Michael closed his door I was ready to let it go. 

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, 853fisher said:

I did think about suicide in the context of the door, but not in the sense that I believed the show was trying to make those analogies.  We all bring our own baggage to these shows, and some of mine is long-term struggles with mental and physical health.  I do not want to end my life, in part because in the depths of my despair I find that I am always able to imagine something other than failure and pain, but I feel this is a choice I make daily.

I didn't really see it as suicide either. Mostly because the afterlife seems to be so fundamentally different than life that they can't really compare. The big thing is that the life span is so huge I am not sure it is something people could really comprehend/process. Especially since it seems that in the good place you remember your entire afterlife. So I don't think walking though the door is really like ending your own life.

Also thought it was interesting that Janet sees time like Dr Manhattan from The Watchmen with everything occuring all at once. So does that mean she knew exactly what was going to happen? Related to that I loved that D'arcy Carden had the necklace on in the after show.

I also loved how in the end for Michael Realman, Jason was "my dog".

[BobH]

48 minutes ago, chaifan said:

They were there for at least 3,000 Jerimy Berimy's, so it's quite possible they did see a lot of what you mention.  We have no idea how a Jerimy Berimy equates to our linear time, but we know it's different.  So it would have been 1,000 years or 10,000 years , or 10 years.  We simply don't know. 

While the timeline is obviously confused, Chidi does reference "a thousand lifetimes", so I'm going to assume they spent the equivalent of at least the high tens of thousands of years in The Good Place. Derek was also rebooted 151 million times, so if you assume Mindy can hold out an average of a day between reboots that's over 400,000 years. And Tahani had over 11,000 items on her list. Some were obviously trivial joke items for the freeze-framing audience, but let's assume a significant number are expert level skills which would take  decades to master.

But of course Michael still walks out in a recognizable early 21st Century Earth. But frankly if the epilogue was in a Buck Rogers flying cars future or a post-apocalypse wasteland or any other standard fictional future it wouldn't have been as satisfying.

[Jessa]

My interpretation is really just what my hope is, and that is that by walking through the door, they are going to the best place. They are not ceasing to exist, but are shedding the constraints of being human so that just their essence/soul/spirit remains. It’s that special thing that makes you, you. In this true paradise, one doesn’t get bored, hurt, upset, pained, because those are conditions of being a human. 

The thought of the afterlife as being just like earth but better is just sad to me. I shared a similar thought at the end of the thread on the Patty episode - but when people picture their loved ones fishing or eating their favourite foods in heaven, I just wonder - is that all people think there is? We just go to another earth with teleportation and better milkshakes? How depressing. 

Ultimately, I believe that death means one of two things:

1) We die and it’s done. Lights out. 

2) We die, and leave our earthly form behind, but our essence remains and experiences a peace and paradise that we cannot currently comprehend because our imaginations are limited by our humanness. 

I dearly hope the second is true, and that is how I interpret what is happening when they go through the door in the show. 

I did enjoy the wave simile. This showed up on my Facebook feed a couple of months after my dad died, and when I read it, all I could think was “This is about death.” It’s a similar idea. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Jessa

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

But, if they did have kids, then they would have long ago found out about what they did on earth - the only question would be whether they made it to the Good Place yet.

I'm thinking of the show Evil and Kristen's four chattering brats.  Then again, I don't think they'd ever get past the judge in the first place.

[Jessa]

2 hours ago, Charlesman said:

 

Maybe it's because no one on Team Cockroach had children. I'm surprised Schur didn't consider seeing he has kids... what it would be like to watch all your descendants and what becomes of the world they left behind. (I'm reminded of what Spielberg said about the ending of "Close Encounters", having Richard Dreyfuss leave his family to board the UFO came from childless Speilberg. Once he had kids, he regretted that ending, since he couldn't believe he'd make that choice.)

 

That’s an interesting point and reminds me of a story. One day when my siblings and I were little, my mom was feeling especially overwhelmed. A couple of members of a religious group knocked on the door and upon seeing she had children, asked my mom if she would love to spend eternity with us. She said that quite frankly she wouldn’t and just couldn’t wait to get us into bed. lol I think that plays into Schur’s idea of too much of anything becomes too much eventually. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Jessa

[Zuleikha]

But I still think, narratively speaking, that the characters could have been in the real good place longer from our perspective, perhaps with conflict principally experienced by other characters they ran across. (I’m thinking of a reworked version of the test subjects, with the stakes realigned: maybe they do not know about the new system somehow.)

This is why I wish the 3rd and 4th seasons had been one single combined season. Because I think the earth stuff and the experiment stuff were not really necessary and ended up being in some ways distracting. But if the concepts of the Kamilah episode, the Eleanor's mom episode, Donkey Doug, and a version for Chidi had been folded into the Good Place revamped system, I think we could have been shown the character's completeness better. I also think it would have been more satisfying because IMHO, the show was best when it was about the characters growing/navigating moral questions, not the reality of the afterlife system.
 

[Toodleoo]

Watching it again and just realized that at the end of  Tahani‘s To Do List is “Fix the Jesus Fresco that lady messed up” and I am howling.

[Jessa]

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but... Judge Gen wore an East Dillon Lions Shirt! 

[Blue Plastic]

5 hours ago, 853fisher said:

Regarding one response I read a few times to those who felt there was too much telling and not enough showing WRT characters reaching contentment in the real good place: I can generally agree with the broadly stated premise that “happy people don’t make good TV.” Maybe “happy” is too simple a word, but there’s a reason well remembered series don’t have plots like “Scooby, Shaggy, and the gang enjoy a pleasant day at the beach without any mysteries” or “Lucy and Ricky calmly discuss her interest in a show business career.” Several weeks of the foursome just enjoying themselves would likely not work for this show, at least for most viewers.

But I still think, narratively speaking, that the characters could have been in the real good place longer from our perspective, perhaps with conflict principally experienced by other characters they ran across. (I’m thinking of a reworked version of the test subjects, with the stakes realigned: maybe they do not know about the new system somehow.) We could have observed, through small character beats, their ongoing responses and how things developed. It’s all very easy for me to type this, of course.

I think maybe even just one additional episode, maybe showing the gang helping with the "conflict" experienced by new Good Place arrivals (or something like that) would have helped me FEEL that they had all lived there for thousands of years.  Probably multiple episodes of just the gang living in the Good Place with no problem to work on would get dull, but IMO they could have worked around that somehow and given us an episode or two of just living there and still make it interesting.  It wouldn't have felt like they tried desperately to get to the Good Place for 4 seasons and in the last 2 episodes finally got in and became immediately bored.

The show spent so many episodes working on the points system.  I really disliked the earth-based episodes.  Then they spent this season on the test subjects and trying to convince Shawn to agree to a new system, and it got boring to me.  Maybe they should have spent more time working on the tests for new arrivals and less time arguing with Gen and Shawn.

4 hours ago, Charlesman said:

Another thing that's been nagging me about the finale;

I get why Lisa Kudrow et. al would be so bored with the stale Good Place, seeing as no one new had entered in millennia. But once the doors opened up thanks to Team Cockroach, wasn't the novelty of new people worth something? Shouldn't that keep things interesting for as long as new people keep getting in? 

And for Team Cockroach, after fighting Judge Gen so hard to not reboot the universe, after they win, they... just didn't care to see what happens with humanity? There was no desire to hang out for tens of thousands of years just to see what the humans got up to? If we ever invent time travel or spaceships that leave the solar system? If we ever solve war, famine or racism? No care at all? No desire to hang around and see if their system continues to work once morality on Earth changes? No interest in seeing where evolution takes the species?

Maybe it's because no one on Team Cockroach had children. I'm surprised Schur didn't consider seeing he has kids... what it would be like to watch all your descendants and what becomes of the world they left behind. (I'm reminded of what Spielberg said about the ending of "Close Encounters", having Richard Dreyfuss leave his family to board the UFO came from childless Speilberg. Once he had kids, he regretted that ending, since he couldn't believe he'd make that choice.)

I would get it, once we reach the Eventual Heat Death of the Universe (and the end of Maximum Derek!), and there were no more people to save, yeah, maybe things get boring after a few dozen thousand bearimys of that. (If you even buy into bearimys, but since Time is a dimension of this physical universe and doesn't necessarily even exist in the afterlife, I'm having a conflict over exactly what that is... my personal beliefs on that are different than the show's, in some ways.) 

But my curiosity to see if we ever make Star Trek the Next Generation real would keep me hanging on for much longer than Team Cockroach seemed to care about what they left behind and worked so hard to save.

Bolded by me - This!  This is what bothers me about death likely meaning that your consciousness ends and that's it.  I won't ever get to find out what happens next!  Not meaning to start a political conversation, but the fallout of the current situation in the US is probably going to take longer to work through than I have left on earth, even if I live to a decently healthy old age.  I would love to have extra time in TGP to see if things get better!

[auntiemel]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:03 PM, Snapdragon said:

For me personally, a better ending would have been them getting to the Good Place and everything being great for everyone except for Michael, who can't fully enjoy it since he's a demon so Eleanor talks to the Judge and gets him to be reborn as a human (as a baby, not the weird dropping him off on earth as a 72 year old man thing) and we see a montage of his human life that ends with his death, then he wakes up in the waiting room and Eleanor peeks out the door and says, "Michael?  Come on in."  Series comes full circle.  Everyone ends up happy.  

I would have loved this ending SSSOOO hard! In fact, maybe I'll just imagine it as the ending in my own mind, because I've been straight up depressed for the past couple of days! Which isn't to say I didn't like the finale. It was good, and it swung for the fences, and I admire that. But it also left me feeling really hollow, and I wanted to feel joyful.

4 hours ago, Jessa said:

My interpretation is really just what my hope is, and that is that by walking through the door, they are going to the best place. They are not ceasing to exist, but are shedding the constraints of being human so that just their essence/soul/spirit remains. It’s that special thing that makes you, you. In this true paradise, one doesn’t get bored, hurt, upset, pained, because those are conditions of being a human. 

I agree, and that's how I'm going to choose to think of it.

1 hour ago, Blue Plastic said:

 but the fallout of the current situation in the US is probably going to take longer to work through than I have left on earth, even if I live to a decently healthy old age.  I would love to have extra time in TGP to see if things get better!

I mean, I just want to know what cool new thing Apple's gonna come up with next! LOL.

As far as the idea of getting bored with eternity, I always just thought that in the afterlife, our consciousness would be expanded and have the capacity to enjoy things again and again, on a deeper level each time. So experiencing something for the 1000th time is, in some ways, just like experiencing it for the first time, because every single time you experience it, it opens up new levels of enlightenment. That would include eating a specific food, or a conversation with a friend, or having sex, or reading a particular book, or...anything. That, even if time is endless, it doesn't feel that way because we're still constantly progressing.

[Dowel Jones]

56 minutes ago, auntiemel said:

I mean, I just want to know what cool new thing Apple's gonna come up with next! LOL.

And somewhere out there Steve Jobs is slapping his forehead and saying "Why didn't I think of that?"  Or, maybe he made it into The Good Place, walked through the arch, came down to Earth and gently piqued someone's interest.

[callie lee 29]

Overall I quite liked this show. I found it smart and thought- provoking. I also appreciated how they/it treated the audience, and didn't try to insult, condescend, or talk down to those watching. I think it's because overall the show was so good I was disappointed when obvious things are ignored. The ending idea that once every desire/wish/whatever is satisfied. When one can get whatever they want. When "heaven/good place" becomes too good the only alternative is to end it, that's host ridiculous. These are supposed to be architects of the universe. Moral/ethical superstars. Individuals who can save humanity by outsmarting The Judge/God. And that's all they can come up with? I don't mean to say that I have a problem with that being the choice, I have a problem with it being the only thing anyone could think of. It just came across as a "whelp, we don't have a whole lot of episodes left, we just gotta go with this" type of thing.  I mean it took a bunch of people on an internet group how long to think that some of these issues might be alleviated by not automatically give everyone something by the way of Asking A Janet, it shouldn't take the writers that long.  It just felt slapped together at parts. 

I bawled like a baby at Jason and Chidi. Damn. 

I really wish somebody has asked Janet if she would be okay. Everyone left her. I know technically she's "not a girl" but she obviously made connections to these people and cared about them. And yes Tahani is still there, but I didn't get the feeling that Tahani was realy around. She's an architect (or at least an architect in training) and I didn't get the feeling they interacted with the others that much.  How is Janet doing????

Speaking of her, I'm glad Tahani didn't go through the door. She always seemed under valued to me in the series, I'm glad she's finding her own way. And I'd totally live in a World by Tahani.