S01.E09: Crisis on Infinite Earths: Part Two

[Chyromaniac]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

So does the fact that Kate has kryptonite that seems to not be affecting Kara mean something?

Whatever casing the Kryptonite was in (lead?) seems to be shielding its effects- Kara wasn’t affected by it in Bruce’s suit either until he opened that little window.

As for E-99 Bruce, I’m kind of torn.  On the one hand, it’s a bummer to hear Conroy’s Batman as a villain- but at the same time, at least he got something more interesting to do than most legacy characters on these shows.  Mostly they get stuck on pep talk duty- this was like an anti-pep talk.  Otherwise, since Kate recognized him that means that Kevin could potentially return as a (hopefully less dickish) E-1 Bruce.

[Trini]

I guess it gave Sara and Mia something to do; but the whole Lazarus Pit plot seemed like pointless filler. I mean, that's not really how they're going to bring Oliver back, is it? And it was kinda dumb -- everyone seemed to think it was a bad idea, but went along with it anyway.

Aw, nice WestAllen scene there at the start. But it was disappointing that Barry and Iris were sidelined in their respective subplots.

I did mostly enjoy the 'Search for the Paragons' subplots. And the easter eggs! I loved all of the Supermen. Lois having a meet-cute with another Clark - in front of her own Clark - was kinda hilarious.

I wish they could have featured a couple more Batwoman castmembers; but I did like seeing a different version Luke. We'll probably never see those abs otherwise!

The Paragon of Courage subplot was the best because of Kara and Kate. And Conroy.

Aw, Leonard as 'Gideon'! I guess Wentworth didn't want to come to Vancouver. But he does a great voiceover, so cool with me.

So Paragons:

• Paragon of Hope = Kara Zor-El
• Paragon of Destiny = Sara Lance
• Paragon of Truth = Superman/Clark, Earth-96(?)
• Paragon of Courage = Kate Kane
• ?
• ?
• ?

[lemotomato]

I thought the episode was good for what it was, an hour spent showing off all the guest stars/IPs the producers managed to wrangle . It was more enjoyable than the first hour because it wasn't non-stop action/exposition/life and death battles. 

I liked that the way the teams were broken up felt natural. Team Resurrect Oliver was the people that knew him and loved him. Team Batman was of course Kate with Kara, who was the one she got along with the most. Team Superman was Lois and Clark, and... Iris.  Mick Rory with Baby Jonathan was my favorite. 

For the most part, I liked the separate stories. Ruby Rose had better chemistry with Melissa than anyone on Batwoman. I really like how they supported each other getting past their own self doubts. The Sara/Mia team up was great, and really highlighted the difference between Mia talking about Oliver with someone that actually had a history with him versus with someone that's just played by the same actress who used to play a character that knew Oliver. Constantine was a hoot, as usual. 

The only side quest that didn't work for me was the search for Supermen. I loved the visit to Smallville and seeing ED and TW again, but that was pretty much it. Bitsie and Tyler have no chemistry. I know that Clois didn't interact with Arrowverse Lois and Clark probably because of actors' schedules, but in my head, it was because ED and TW would've made BT and TH look too inferior, and we can't have that with their spinoff in the wings. The Superman vs Superman fight felt forced and I wondered why Lois and Iris were just watching them fight instead of immediately going after Lex, who was just standing there. (Wow, Jon Cryer is terrible as Lex) And I was disappointed with the Lois/Iris teamup, for all that it got hyped up by reviewers. Iris hardly got to do anything, and had, what, 2 lines to Lois? I am glad she at least got to go off world and wasn't just there to give Barry a pep talk. "Yeah yeah, Oliver's dead. But the important part is that this might mean you're not going to die!"

Can someone explain what the Monitor meant when he said Felicity "earned the wisdom of a second book"? (Did he say "earned" or "learned"?) Did I miss an explanation for how these all powerful books show up?

Edited December 10, 2019 by lemotomato

[Cthulhudrew]

Still too many unanswered (and unasked!) questions for me, which suggests either the writers have a half-formed plot they're hoping the gratuitous cameos will plaster over, or they edited the crap out of this thing in post in order to accommodate the cameos and ended up losing the story:

1) The Monitor mentions his powers are waning suddenly. I guess that explains why Ollie could arrow him last ep, but this seems like some pretty important information to just casually throw out there with no follow up.

2) Similarly, this Anti-Monitor stuff keeps coming out in trickles and droves. Again, pretty important considering that this guy is apparently turning into the big bad behind it all? (And how exactly does that work, if he was a prisoner until just an episode and a half ago when Nash freed him?)

3) Why was it somehow important that Lex be allowed to roam and kill off Supermen, or is the Monitor really just a dick after all? The Lex stuff didn't seem to add anything to the plot (they were already looking for the Superman paragon) other than to provide some conflict that would have otherwise be missing. But conflict provided by an ally seems pointless.

And of course some minor stuff: What happened to Lex- did they leave him lying in a lump on the floor of the E-38 Daily Planet? Mighty convenient for Constantine's powers to crap out right when they needed them.

It's also kind of a shame they didn't let Kara grieve for her home in her own show, but instead waited until this episode to do so. 

I was really looking forward to Crisis, and while I've enjoyed parts of it, it is starting to feel threadbare thin and cameo fat.

[Trini]

I swear one of the the producers said something about honoring the Oliver/Barry relationship during this crossover, but they haven't really had any scenes showing that. And next episode doesn't look too promising either.

[lemotomato]

30 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

And of course some minor stuff: What happened to Lex- did they leave him lying in a lump on the floor of the E-38 Daily Planet?

No, they brought him back with them to the Waverider. He's in one of those invisible jail cells they used on the supernatural creatures.

[thuganomics85]

The fan service was in full-force for this episode, but I don't mind it one bit!

Kevin Conroy in the flesh, baby!  For my money, he will always be the best Batman ever, with respect to the live action counterparts out there.  It was great seeing him here and playing a older, grizzled, and somehow even darker Batman, who pretty much crossed the line at some point and fully went down a dark path (his reasons for killing Superman really were the same as the one in Batman v. Superman.  I guess Supes didn't have the time to yell "Save Martha!" before the final blow!)  But I figured he was going to die and it was Kate that was Paragon the entire time, but it was still an enjoyable performance none the less.  Also, Kate and Kara continue to be an impressive duo.  Hope we get more of that here and even on the future shows (Kara and Mary would be fantastic!)

And then we get not one, but two other Clarks!  First, there is Tom Welling, playing a Clark who found a happy life with Lois and kids in Smallville, and gave up his powers to do so.  Had the flannel jacket and everything!  I know Welling isn't the most versatile actor out there, but I enjoyed his bemused reactions to Lex.  But the Paragon ends up being a Clark who lost everyone he loved, but maintains his hopeful optimism.  Oh, and he happens to be played once again by Brandon Routh!  He seem to be having a blast dawning the suit (and glasses) again, and it really showed that there was a lot of potential for his Superman, had the film not bungled it (and that was before most everyone knew what the likes of Bryan Singer and Kevin Spacey did in their spare time...)

Still think Jon Cryer as Lex is some of the best out of left field casting that this franchise has ever done.

Feel kind of dumb that it never occurred to me that they would try and put Oliver in a Lazarus Pit.  Totally can understand why Barry and Mia would take that risk, but I understand Sara's reservations.  Fun seeing Constantine as well.

While Gideon will always be the best Waverider, Snarky Leonard Snart as a Waverider is right behind her!  Fun seeing another Mick Rory as well, even if he was pretty much the same as every Mick Rory out in the multiverse.  Glad he's also found success as a writer!

First glimpse of the Anti-Monitor and... not all that impressive.  Felt like someone just merged The Night King from Game of Thrones with Thanos, and called it a day.

MVPs for this one out of the main cast are probably Melissa Benoist, Brandon Routh, and Caity Lotz for me, but this was also probably some of Ruby Rose's best work yet.

So, four of the Paragons have been found (Kara, Sara, Kate, and Routh's Clark), so that leaves three more.  Trying to think of which characters could be it.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Maverick said:

 It looks like the Anti Monitor lives in Star Labs. 

They used the STAR Labs set; but that wasn't the STAR Labs hallway. Different fixtures.

[starri]

God, the use of the John Williams score on Earth-96...

In terms of pure delight, nothing was better than seeing that Smallville Clark and Lois ended up with such a happy life.

[Starfish35]

I really have to wonder about Earth-38’s Bruce.  It always sounded like he and Clark were friends.  

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, four of the Paragons have been found (Kara, Sara, Kate, and Routh's Clark), so that leaves three more.  Trying to think of which characters could be it.

Probably Oliver, Barry, and Jefferson Pierce.  I figured Ray would be one of them too, but didn’t count on there being two Supers in the lineup.  It would be cool if Diggle was one, if 

Spoiler

it turns out that there’s something to the Green Lantern rumors.

But I really think it will end up being Oliver, Barry, and Jeff.

[UNOSEZ]

Now I just want a plain batwoman/ Supergirl crossover.. So Kara can meet Luke Prime

[UNOSEZ]

THUGANOMICS85 SAID:

And I feel like Jennifer and Mia would either be at each others throats the entire time, or be like two peas in a pod.  Or maybe both.

That would be so great.. One a kid who grew up with a superhero dad but didn't know for quite a while and had a pretty stable home life and one the total opposite.. But both have some things in common... I know Jen wouldnt stand for some of that angry attitude Mia always has.. And would prob just smoke her out to mellow her down.. And Mia would be an actual sounding board for Jen who's got her own overbearing daddy issues... 

[Starry]

This episode moved at a slower pace than the previous one but I think I liked it better.

The baby crying during the Monitor's speech and him just pausing and going on like nothing happened made me smile.

It was obvious that the reason why they went looking for another Waverider that just happened to be abandoned was because they couldn't pay the entire Legends cast. Hearing Snart's voice made me happy. I miss him so much. Nanny Mick reading smut to the baby! So many cute, funny moments with him and Ray.

I was upset that they killed Conroy's Bruce but his parts were interesting and I enjoyed the Kate/Kara team-up. Too bad no-one from the Batwoman cast could be there. It's always like this when you're the new kid on the block. This version of Luke is fun though. Kara finds him cute.

Kate being the real Paragon of Courage didn't surprise me. If Kara is the Paragon of Hope, Sara is the Paragon of Destiny and Brandon's Superman is the Paragon of Truth that leaves three missing Paragons. I think Barry and Oliver are both Paragons. Don't know who the other one could be between Tyler's Superman or Ray. If Oliver is a Paragon then bringing him back with the Lazarus Pit was the right call even if Sara was reasonably against it.

I continue being unimpressed with Barry's parts in this. It made perfect sense that he felt guilty and wanted Oliver's back but I want more from him. Every other lead has more of a voice than Barry and it's totally unfair. I will never stop saying this. Crisis started on Barry's show. How about you show him some respect?

I enjoyed seeing Smallville Clark and Lois. She made fun of him for talking with the cows! That's so Lois. I don't know how I feel about Clark giving up his powers for his family but since he's happy I'll accept it.

The Lois/Clark/Iris team-up had good moments. I wish they were more imaginative with Iris though. It's like they put her there just because the fans wanted it. I am going to take all the Iris fanservice I can get ( the crossovers have disrespected her for years ) but being more creative would help. I needed a reason for why the Monitor sent her there. I guess Lois wasn't necessary either but she got a badass moment when she knocked down Lex and managed to talk down Angry Superman. She's a part of the Superman mythos and her pep talk to him made sense. I don't get why Lois' scenes with Brandon's Superman were more romantic than her scenes with her own husband though. They were framed to be very emotional.

A WestAllen romantic scene with no Team Flash and no mention of Team Flash? Am I dreaming? The rest of the characters weren't even in the episode. I hope the Flash writers keep this energy up and don't have them overshadow WestAllen or hijack their moments in tonight's episode.

Mia is boring. Her scenes with Sara highlighted her lack of...anything really. Not impressed with the Arrowverse kids.

Constantine calling Barry "Speedy"! Jonah cameo!

The Antimonitor is so ugly. Him controlling Lyla is taken straight from the comics. I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out. Where's Psycho Pirate? I thought he was supposed to come back.

[bettername2come]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I couldn't help but think...'you know who could help with this whole getting Oliver his soul back thing...now that Constantine is tapped out.....

The Winchesters.

Yes.  I said it.  I'm not sorry.

I’ve been half-convinced they’re gonna show up since they’re the only other CW with a multiverse.

[Trisha]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Aw, nice WestAllen scene there at the start. But it was disappointing that Barry and Iris were sidelined in their respective subplots.

I’m actually glad they gave Iris something to do that wasn’t connected to Barry in any way. Though I could have used her being a smidge less giddy about Oliver dying in that scene.

This crossover is delivering a ton of great moments for Sara, and I’m always here for that. And the Felicity shout out pretty much sold me on buying the tie-in comic. 

[Taeolas]

Monitor aside, ultimately, this crossover is going to focus on the characters (or at least the actors) who are already involved with the 6 series involved. So the Easter Egg guest stars are never likely to have more than a scene or two at most, and will not have a major role ultimately. Smallville Clark was never going to be a Paragon, nor Kevin-Bat. 

(They're lucky Routh was both Ray and Clark so they could get a two-fer right off the bat, and give him a great swan song send off from the serieses). Enjoy the Easter Egg scenes for as much as we can get out of them, and for the loving nods to the DC TV (and movie) Universes they envoke; but don't expect the guests to hang out for long. This crossover is already mingling 6 casts all at once, with a full series worth of guest stars on top of it. They don't have the time or money to do more than they are doing now really. 

And yeah that basically means the other 3 Paragons will probably be characters from the series; Barry and Ollie are pretty much given, and maybe someone from the BL cast as the last one. 

Oh and on another note, I'm glad they acknowledged the similarities between that Clark and Ray and ran with it as an on going joke thread. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, nickp1991 said:

As cool as it was to see Tom Welling and Erica Durance back didn’t they sell the farm back during the Smallville series finale?

Sort of. Clark put it on the market for the normal BDA (Big DUMB Alien reasons) forget the past, move on, blah, blah, fishcakes.  It upset Martha and pissed her off. In the end, they kept the farm.

But I did laugh my ass off when Clark cold cocked "Lex." And the "and stronger" had me 🤣🤣 as well as Clark rolling his eyes as "Lex" went on, aghast, at Clark giving up his powers. "Not this again."

But for Lois to disbelieve what Clark said about the multiverse? As if it was fiction? You idiot, you were THERE in "Absolute Justice" and when the clones of marble mouthed Zod and his minions took over. Jeebus. Did everyone take stupid pills? Their Earth had TONS of metas, aliens, time traveling, etc.

8 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Earth-99 Bruce was definitely more Justice Lords and less Batman Beyond.

Not even. At least Justice Lord Bats had some conscience and wasn't as big of an asshole as the one depicted last night. More of Assfleck and Miller's DICKISH Batman. one, for the record, I detest. Having Batman Beyond's Bruce/Bats would have been so much better. But then, if he was just a bitter curmudgeon, yet still good, then Kate couldn't have been the Paragon, now could she?

Yeah. Still Bitter.

[kirinan]

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Same-But-Different versions of Mick Rory and Jonah Hex? Hey, why not??? Bringing in another Waverider seems like a horrible idea, but it's worked okay . . . and the AI is based off Snart! And it's sarcastic AF!

The only DC show I watch anymore is Legends of Tomorrow. I gave up on Flash at the beginning of this season, left Supergirl two seasons ago, and never have watched Arrow or Batwoman, so I'm lost with many of the callbacks and references in this story. However, I love the Easter eggs I do get, and Snarky Waverider Snart all on his own makes not understanding WTF is going on in these episodes completely worthwhile. I'll watch the rest of the episodes just to see if they stick with him throughout.

(Hmm, I wonder if two Waverider AIs can co-exist in one universe...?)

Edited December 10, 2019 by kirinan

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Jon Cryer should be grateful they couldn't persuade Michael Rosenbaum to appear, because all we'd have to see is one MINUTE of his Lex to see how badly he wipes the floor with Cryer's weaselly one.

Michael Rosenbaum was "offered" to appear---If he would do it for free; there was no script, nothing, when they approached him. And he, (rightfully) turned them down. You want Rosenbaum, the best Live Action Lex? Then you fucking Pay Him.

And I also laughed my ass off that Baby Jonathan cried every time that PRICK Monitor opened his mouth to monologue about why so many Universes had to be destroyed.

[Chyromaniac]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

So Paragons:

• Paragon of Hope = Kara Zor-El
• Paragon of Destiny = Sara Lance
• Paragon of Truth = Superman/Clark, Earth-96(?)
• Paragon of Courage = Kate Kane
• ?
• ?
• ?

Paragon of Pep Talks = Joe West

Paragon of Parkour = Roy Harper

Paragon of Friendship = Twilight Sparkle

[Jenniferbug]

This was fun! 

I loved the shots at the beginning of the episode and Kara and Sara discussing Oliver's sacrifice. Kate really works best with these other characters. I love her friendship with Kara and how they support each other. They're terrific together. That scene on the front steps of Wayne Manor was so good. "Earth 1 villian?" "No, only friend." 

Barry being salty with the Monitor makes me happy. Such a normal reaction and not a side of Barry that we normally get to see. I didn't love him going to Lazarus Pit to resurrect Oliver, but it makes sense that he and Mia would be the ones pushing for any way to bring Oliver back.

Batman was about what I expected honestly. DC wasn't going to let them use anyone as Batman in the suit so no way he could be the paragon. 

All the Supermen were great! Love that they got Tom Welling to come back for this. Can someone explain to me why he is so against suiting up or having powers when his career was made playing Superman? I don't follow the behind the scenes of Smallville to know. I don't mind him giving up powers to have a normal life. It seems like something Clark's would do on at least a few earths, and the Michael Rosenbaum Lex seemed less evil than many others (but I quit watching Smallville before the end, so I could be wrong about that). 

Brandon Routh is such a terrific Clark and Superman. I'm so happy that he gets to step back into the role. His "Iowa nice" really shines through in both Clark and Ray. 

Who is the Gotham villain who gassed the Daily Planet? Interesting that all the Supermen have children (Jonathan, Jason, 2 unnamed daughters).

Black Lightning joining the group is exciting and I'm anxious to see that tonight! 

[Chaser]

I liked the Mia and Sara team up but I’m missing some scenes with them. I wanted their introduction and more of a reaction to that Nyssa mention. Did Sara and Nyssa have a falling out that I missed? 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

This was fun! 

Batman was about what I expected honestly. DC wasn't going to let them use anyone as Batman in the suit so no way he could be the paragon. 

All the Supermen were great! Love that they got Tom Welling to come back for this. Can someone explain to me why he is so against suiting up or having powers when his career was made playing Superman? I don't follow the behind the scenes of Smallville to know. I don't mind him giving up powers to have a normal life. It seems like something Clark's would do on at least a few earths, and the Michael Rosenbaum Lex seemed less evil than many others (but I quit watching Smallville before the end, so I could be wrong about that). 

Brandon Routh is such a terrific Clark and Superman. I'm so happy that he gets to step back into the role. His "Iowa nice" really shines through in both Clark and Ray. 

Who is the Gotham villain who gassed the Daily Planet? Interesting that all the Supermen have children (Jonathan, Jason, 2 unnamed daughters).

Black Lightning joining the group is exciting and I'm anxious to see that tonight! 

I know that Bats, any Bats, couldn't have been the Paragon, because, well, he doesn't have a show. But did they have to make him EVUHL?

Oh yeah. Rosenbaum's Lex went FULL ON EVIL at the end of Season Three.

That was Joker who gassed everyone at the Daily Planet. "Reject from Gotham" that got pissy is classic Joker. And Gas was his favorite weapon of choice.

Edited December 10, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[jmonique]

Rewatching ...

Why is Ruby Rose so much better on a crossover than she is on Batwoman? I actually found her ... interesting. Like she had a personality ("Nope. Let's not make it weird. That's weird."), and wasn't just aiming for "sexy posturing."

Sara: "I promised my team they wouldn't have to participate in any more crossovers" ... and then we get most of the Waverider team.

According to Google, Tyler's 6'0", while Brandon's 6'2", but damn, there's a lot in those 2 inches. 

I did like snarky Lex curtsying after the Monitor declared he played his part, and Tyler!Clark's reactions to things. 

Mainly I can't help but wonder how these people are all wandering around a spaceship, chatting, while Alex Danvers and J'onn are homeless on Earth 1; last we saw Laurel, Diggle, William and the rest of Team Arrow, they were on the island; and Team Flash is ... somewhere, as this thing they've been prepping for all season is happening to others. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by jmonique

[Lantern7]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

So Paragons:

• Paragon of Hope = Kara Zor-El
• Paragon of Destiny = Sara Lance
• Paragon of Truth = Superman/Clark, Earth-96(?)
• Paragon of Courage = Kate Kane
• ?
• ?
• ?

Jefferson Pierce: Paragon of Getting Stomped In The Crotch Over and Over

Querl Dox: Paragon of Growing On Viewers Like A Really Quirky Fungus

Tobias Wale: Paragon of Clowning On Everyone, Being Evil, And Looking Awesome Doing That

Clark/Routh was from Earth-96? Duh . . . 1996 was the year Kingdom Come came out. Oh, and I did check the memorial wall. No signs of Mark Waid or Alex Ross. Also, I'm guessing the "can't say 'Joker'" thing is in play like it was in Gotham. In the miniseries, he was the one that killed Lois, and he was killed by Magog. The new hero's subsequent acquittal was the main reason Superman left civilization behind.

[yanksno1]

Super bummed (pun intended) that's the direction they took with Smallville's Superman. But at least I was preparing for it, so I'm not disappointed. With that, we're never gonna see his Superman on screen. The dream is dead.

[Taeolas]

"Can't say Joker" I think may be a thing in show, though it sort've works in context. By removing his 'name' for the atrocity he performed, you remove the legacy. 

Still I think the aftershow played up on that too by not mentioning Joker directly by name too. 

As for where everyone else is:

* Team Flash we'll find out tonight. They're doing their own preparations assumably

* Team Arrow was on the island but had a pickup coming, so they're probably back in civilization by now.

* I figure most of Team Supergirl is helping coordinate the refugees from their Earth. J'onn and Alex are best positioned to do that sort of coordination, especially with Brainiac backing them up (though Brainy should be helping on the Waverider too).

[Sakura12]

DC won't allow any tv shows to say Joker. Even Gotham couldn't use his name. They also won't allow Batman suited up to appear for then a minute or 2. 

[scarynikki12]

Batwoman's been allowed to reference Joker but I can't remember how many times. Joker was behind the attack on the bridge that resulted in Mama Kane's death and set Beth on the path to becoming Alice so they're probably given limitations on references but aren't fully banned. They're allowed to reference Batman after all. Now the crossover may have stricter limitations on what they can and can't reference, hence showing the Joker card and calling him a reject from Gotham. And I bet the Batman references end after this episode as well.

[Sakura12]

Didn't they just show a newspaper article? So they found a way without saying his name. 

They can say Batman but can't show him in suited up for an extended time. Gotham was about Batman and they couldn't show actual Batman for more then a few quick shots. I think I read that MG said they were not allowed to show Batman in his suit. 

[scarynikki12]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't they just show a newspaper article? So they found a way without saying his name. 

They can say Batman but can't show him in suited up for an extended time. Gotham was about Batman and they couldn't show actual Batman for more then a few quick shots. I think I read that MG said they were not allowed to show Batman in his suit. 

I swear I heard them say Joker at some point but I may be confusing with the article.

[Writing Wrongs]

13 hours ago, cdnalor said:

I've never been impressed by Tyler Hoechlin as Superman because he doesn't seem very imposing and now seeing him next to Routh and Welling, he looks like a skinny teenager.

Yeah, Welling is huge next to Tyler and they had Brandon padded out in that suit.

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

I guess it gave Sara and Mia something to do; but the whole Lazarus Pit plot seemed like pointless filler. I mean, that's not really how they're going to bring Oliver back, is it? And it was kinda dumb -- everyone seemed to think it was a bad idea, but went along with it anyway.

Aw, nice WestAllen scene there at the start. But it was disappointing that Barry and Iris were sidelined in their respective subplots.

I did mostly enjoy the 'Search for the Paragons' subplots. And the easter eggs! I loved all of the Supermen. Lois having a meet-cute with another Clark - in front of her own Clark - was kinda hilarious.

Completely agree with the way both Barry and Iris were sidelined in their subplots.  That made me sad.  It feels like the bigger the crossovers get, the harder it is to pack meaning into them... and it feels like lately, Barry kinda gets dragged from thing to thing and not really giving him a chance to do much.  I love seeing Iris, but the setup for this was lacking and I would've loved some "reporters, yay!" acknowledgement between Lois and Iris.     

But I looooooved the Supermen stuff and even I thought the Lois-KingdomClark meet cute was sooooo cute!  And sadly - Bitsie had more chemistry with BR in that one scene than she's ever had with Tyler.  I'm so impressed by how well BR inhabits Clark/Superman... I forgot for a moment that this guy had been playing Ray Palmer for years in this verse when that scene of him with Lois happened.

And they played the "Can you read my mind?" music!!! *wipes tear*

8 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I know that Clois didn't interact with Arrowverse Lois and Clark probably because of actors' schedules, but in my head, it was because ED and TW would've made BT and TH look too inferior, and we can't have that with their spinoff in the wings. The Superman vs Superman fight felt forced and I wondered why Lois and Iris were just watching them fight instead of immediately going after Lex, who was just standing there. (Wow, Jon Cryer is terrible as Lex) And I was disappointed with the Lois/Iris teamup, for all that it got hyped up by reviewers. Iris hardly got to do anything, and had, what, 2 lines to Lois? I am glad she at least got to go off world and wasn't just there to give Barry a pep talk. "Yeah yeah, Oliver's dead. But the important part is that this might mean you're not going to die!"

Like I said above - agreed on Iris and her marginalization in that subplot.

Aside from ED/TW making BT/TH look not as good - honestly BR did that all by himself with them... 

This show missed a GOLDEN opportunity not using BR as Superman on SG's earth.  Even now, I'd be more interested in a Kingdom Come Superman show than what we're gonna get with TH/BT - unless they suddenly decided to push a BR/BT Superman show.  That I'd be all for.  I like Tyler and he seems sweet but after seeing BR suited up again and seeing TW, ugh he just pales in comparison.

I'm so glad they had BR suit up again as Superman, but I am grieving for what we could have had.  BR is up there with Reeves and Cavill as one of the best Supermen.  I still think TW and DC made the best Clarks.

[shantown]

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

Mainly I can't help but wonder how these people are all wandering around a spaceship, chatting, while Alex Danvers and J'onn are homeless on Earth 1; last we saw Laurel, Diggle, William and the rest of Team Arrow, they were on the island; and Team Flash is ... somewhere, as this thing they've been prepping for all season is happening to others. 

Oliver is one of my favorites. It's actually the show I started watching last out of the original four (watched Supergirl, then Flash, then Legends, then Arrow), but he quickly became one of my favorite characters and heroes. I didn't want him to die fighting evil ghosts like that. But I really hope there was a moment where Kara got to confirm that J'onn and Alex and Brainy and Lena and her friends at CatCo and the DEO and Noonan's, etc made it out alive. That she heard her earth mom made it out alive after she watched her real mom and home planet die AGAIN. I know everyone wanted to honor/resurrect Oliver but it would have been nice to have more of them than Kate (who she just met) be there for her when Kara potentially already lost everyone.

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

It feels like the bigger the crossovers get, the harder it is to pack meaning into them

This, and it's why I hope after this big crossover they go back to smaller ones between 1-3 shows at a time instead of trying to cram 5+ shows together

Edited December 10, 2019 by shantown
ETA: A response to phoenics

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Trisha said:

I’m actually glad they gave Iris something to do that wasn’t connected to Barry in any way. Though I could have used her being a smidge less giddy about Oliver dying in that scene.

I think the writers should have had Iris just say a small "I'm so sorry about Oliver" as she hugged Barry... I feel like maybe they thought it was implied that of course she's sorry about Oliver in the hug?  But a comment would've helped... some are ripping into Iris for not directly saying that and for then trying to look for any shred of hope that her husband might not die.

I didn't see her as giddy either - I saw her as hopeful.  

Edited December 10, 2019 by phoenics

[adora721]

3 hours ago, Trisha said:

I’m actually glad they gave Iris something to do that wasn’t connected to Barry in any way. Though I could have used her being a smidge less giddy about Oliver dying in that scene.

Iris wasn't "giddy" that Oliver died. She was giddy about the Monitor being wrong about Oliver's death and what it might mean for Barry's death. It gave her hope that the Monitor is also wrong about Barry dying. Iris wasn't celebrating Oliver's death in any way in that scene.

[phoenics]

37 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I swear I heard them say Joker at some point but I may be confusing with the article.

BR's Clark said "A Gotham reject".  I didn't hear Joker at all, but it was heavily implied obviously.

[calliope1975]

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Can someone explain what the Monitor meant when he said Felicity "earned the wisdom of a second book"? (Did he say "earned" or "learned"?) Did I miss an explanation for how these all powerful books show up?

I heard "earned" and now I'm going to have to buy the tie in so well done MG. (I still dislike you.) Felicity probably used her loud voice and the book caved. 

I hope Jefferson is a paragon because this crew badly needs some melanin.

Spoiler

I'm glad Osric Chau is showing up, too, for some Asian representation.

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, adora721 said:

Iris wasn't "giddy" that Oliver died. She was giddy about the Monitor being wrong about Oliver's death and what it might mean for Barry's death. It gave her hope that the Monitor is also wrong about Barry dying. Iris wasn't celebrating Oliver's death in any way in that scene.

She wasn't even giddy, imo.  I saw her as more hopeful than giddy.  "Grasping at hopeful straws" was what I got from the scene.

[teenj12]

It's interesting that most of everyone else in this thread had a way better opinion on this part of the crossover than I did. I found it to have juggled a lot of plates at once - and some of the entries on those plates didn't particularly interest me (maybe it didn't help that there were noisy people around when I watched, idkkk).

The Supermen plot was the best thing going on here. It was fun seeing Iris West-Alllen team up with Lois Lane! Two of the most famous non-powered ladies and journalists in comics history. Alas, we didn't get to spend much time with Smallville's Clark, but it was still so great seeing him after all these years, and it really felt like nothing even changed! Tom Welling and Erica Durance slid back into their roles like a well-fitted glove. Was iffy on Clark having gave up his powers (caught me by surprise), but ya know what? I'm just glad he's living a blissful life. After the hell he endured on Smallville, he deserves it lol. 

BR Superman vs TH Superman was fun. It's still a TV show so they did what they could do, and I did think the glass shattering effect from their punch-collision was a pretty cool detail/moment. 

The Bat stuff kind of bored me, which is crazy 'cause this is Batwoman's own part. I liked seeing Luke (and his unbuttoned shirt, lol). And it's cool that the guy who has voiced Batman all these years got the chance to play a secretly deranged version of the caped crooked crusader.

So yeah, even here during the biggest event in DC television history, budget is still tight, and that showed with the writers jumping through hoops to not have the rest of the Legends cast participating yet. Sara's "I promised my crew they wouldn't have to do another crossover" was fun meta, but also took me out of the scene for a moment. The fate of the entire multiverse - literally trillions of lives are on the line - and the rest of the Legends are just gone... chill.... till the eleventh hour? Ehh. 

It was fun seeing Constantine, and I liked the tie back to his very first appearance in the Arrowverse, which was retrieving Sara's soul after her own dip in the Lazurus pits. With that being said, the whole plot was just dumb. Such a convoluted way to bring Oliver back after an already rushed death. Whatever, we'll see where it goes. I did enjoy how good Caity Lotz and Katherine McNamara played off each other, and their team-up against Jonah Hex was a good sequence. 

I didn't get the point of the alternate Mick - I mean, they could have had regular Mick teaming along and literally nothing would have been different. And why would Kara trust his doppleganger with the baby? I could see if this was the real Mick, who she knows (and even then, I don't think she'd hand off her little cousin to him). It did make for a humorous sequence, and that baby is just adorable. 

Overall, I'm giving this part a 7/10, but maybe on rewatch, I'll enjoy it to the point of raising that grade a bit. 

[jmonique]

33 minutes ago, phoenics said:

This show missed a GOLDEN opportunity not using BR as Superman on SG's earth.  Even now, I'd be more interested in a Kingdom Come Superman show than what we're gonna get with TH/BT - unless they suddenly decided to push a BR/BT Superman show.  That I'd be all for.  I like Tyler and he seems sweet but after seeing BR suited up again and seeing TW, ugh he just pales in comparison.

I'm so glad they had BR suit up again as Superman, but I am grieving for what we could have had.  BR is up there with Reeves and Cavill as one of the best Supermen.  I still think TW and DC made the best Clarks.

Tyler was a solid pick for Superman on Supergirl. He's got great cousin chemistry with Melissa as Kara, without overshadowing her, but you can still see the goodness in him, and a strength and a resolve to make you believe he's out there fighting the good fight, but you don't maybe need to see it.

Brandon, on the other hand, comes off exactly like he is -- a man who could carry a solo Superman movie, and be the focus of that. He makes me want to see more of his Clark's world and journey.

[Trisha]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Michael Rosenbaum was "offered" to appear---If he would do it for free; there was no script, nothing, when they approached him. And he, (rightfully) turned them down. You want Rosenbaum, the best Live Action Lex? Then you fucking Pay Him.

It wasn't free. Rosenbaum said they offered him "basically no money" -- so not as much as he wanted. I wish they'd have figured out a deal; he was missed last night.

36 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Iris wasn't "giddy" that Oliver died. She was giddy about the Monitor being wrong about Oliver's death and what it might mean for Barry's death. It gave her hope that the Monitor is also wrong about Barry dying. Iris wasn't celebrating Oliver's death in any way in that scene.

The just needed *one* small beat after the hug before she smiles and says "maybe he's wrong about you too, maybe you're not supposed to die." I get that she's hopeful about saving her husband but jumping right into it felt off, especially because she expresses more compassion a few minutes later when Barry tells her about the Lazarus Pits. It's almost like they should have switched the order of those lines. (On the other hand, Iris spent a lot of time in the last crossover criticizing Oliver so I guess this isn't as bad as last year.) 

[Writing Wrongs]

I  felt like the Iris' line was weird, because it seemed like she was saying "The Monitor was wrong. Oliver died differently than he foresaw, so maybe you don't have to die at all."

And I was like, "But Oliver still died!"

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The Winchesters.

I mean, they ARE on the same network...

"Alright Anti-Monitor, now lets see who you really are!" 

*pulls off mask*

"CHUCK!?!?" 

"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling heroes!" 

[adora721]

49 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

And I was like, "But Oliver still died!"

If you were in her place, which you would you focus on, the fact that a cosmic being was wrong or the fact that Oliver still died? Pretty sure most wives would just be glad that a cosmic being got it wrong, which gave some hope that he was wrong about her husband as well. In context, her focusing on hope that Barry would live makes sense to me.

Look at Barry, Mia, and Sara's decision to put Oliver in the Lazarus Pit knowing that Oliver would come back without his humanity. And Constantine couldn't guarantee they would get back his soul.  Nothing, not even Sara's own horrific experience with the LP, broke through Mia and Sara's desire to bring back the person they loved. So, logic wasn't ruling the day in any of these situations.

ETA: Most recently, Roy Harper committed multiple murders because of blood lust derived from him being put into the LP. In earlier seasons, Thea had the same issue, even though her soul was restored.

None of these people - Barry, Mia, Sara, or Iris- is thinking clearly.

Edited December 10, 2019 by adora721

[Writing Wrongs]

What I meant was that even though The Monitor got the "when" of Oliver dying wrong, he still died. So why would Iris think that would mean Barry wouldn't die at all?

[Bruinsfan]

12 hours ago, Maverick said:

Why was Earth-99 Luke lounging around Wayne Manor dressed like a gigolo?  Is that Bruce into guys?

Looks at all the other versions of Batman who have a habit of taking in athletic young orphans and dressing them up in rubber outfits or short shorts...

7 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I really have to wonder about Earth-38’s Bruce.  It always sounded like he and Clark were friends.

Kara said they were frenemies in last year's crossover, didn't she? So maybe their interactions have the same sort of fraught vibe as in the DCEU Justice League movie?

[StaceyNotStacie]

I watch Legends and Supergirl, so I wasn’t really invested in the other stuff. I loved the stuff with the two Supermen. I just wish we could have gotten a comment from Mick when he saw BR’s Clark and Ray standing together. That seemed like a missed opportunity. 

[Velocity23]

20 minutes ago, adora721 said:

If you were in her place, which you would you focus on, the fact that a cosmic being was wrong or the fact that Oliver still died? Pretty sure most wives would just be glad that a cosmic being got it wrong, which gave some hope that he was wrong about her husband as well. In context, her focusing on hope that Barry would live makes sense to me.

It came off extremely cold by Iris. Especially since her husband was clearly grieving a friend and mentor. Paired with the revelations of Elseworlds it might have the opposite effect on Barry. Nobody expects Iris to cry cuz it wouldnt be believable after elseworlds anyway, but Barry has always thought highly of Oliver. Give your husband time to grieve. 

Of course people who think highly of Oliver are not thinking clearly. And want to bring him back. Lets not pretend that Iris or any of WA future kids would not had done the same. 

[adora721]

29 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What I meant was that even though The Monitor got the "when" of Oliver dying wrong, he still died. So why would Iris think that would mean Barry wouldn't die at all?

Because, up until this point, the Monitor seemed like this infallible cosmic being. Up until this point, everything the Monitor said would happen did occur exactly as he stated. Now, Iris sees that the Monitor is fallible and is capable of being wrong. It doesn't matter that Oliver still died; what matters to Iris is that Mor Novu's word is no longer absolute gospel and things can change from what he's told them. Therein lies Iris' hope.