S39.E09: Two for the Price of One

[Cornhusker12]

8 minutes ago, Libby said:

I find Noura's personality enjoyable. I think that she's hilarious. Karishma, on the other hand is a sad sack. She's no fun to watch in my opinion.

Same here, Noura's head is in the clouds through and through but you can tell she's always trying to be positive and have fun, I won't be surprised at all if she's popular with the rest of the cast if she goes to Ponderosa and/or outside of the game. Karishma is just all downer in almost every situation, other than when she's overstating her own place in the game during talking heads.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

What was that about, anyway?  Who's he showing off for - the jury?  Probst?  That was weird.

Good grief, I hope so.  There is honestly no reason for them to have to walk around 24/7 and perform challenges in their underwear.  I'm not sure when this started but it's completely ridiculous.  If they want to get new and younger watchers on board, let the players wear actual clothes.

**STANDING OVATION**

Since the word "bully" has come up, I found that scene very uncomfortable to watch.  Noura TOLD Karishma that Noura WAS going to call medical on her, point blank, period.  Karishma  - in keeping with the theme of this season - had to tell Noura that actually no, you don't get to call medical for me as it's my body.  What in the hell is with these people and boundaries this season??  I hated Noura in that moment - I think her motivation was to get Karishma out of the game but the way she went about it was not okay.

There was something about the way Noura and the others reacted to Karishma's "Illness" that rubbed me the wrong way.  It seemed like they were more motivated by being in control and getting their way than out of genuine concern for her health.  

Speaking of boundaries, Missy grabbed Karishma's arm, multiple times, as she tried to walk away from her attempt to talk to at her, to prevent her from leaving.    

[Special K]

15 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

She acts like she's Michael Corleone taking out a hit on Tessio, but she's so stupid that she gave the job to Fredo.

Haha, perfect!  And, like Fredo, she went out like a punk.  😂

[Bryce Lynch]

15 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know Elaine does a lot of fake "Oh I'm just a dumb hick" stuff, but I loved how unbothered she was throughout that challenge, like this is the easiest shit I've ever done in my life, you dumb city folk.  It was so funny.  She looked Boston Rob-ish.

The contrast between Elaine and Missy was hilarious.  Missy was laser focused on the ring and ball and was obviously stressed out and working very hard, and muttering to herself.  

Elaine looked kind of bored.  

[Special K]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The contrast between Elaine and Missy was hilarious.  Missy was laser focused on the ring and ball and was obviously stressed out and working very hard, and muttering to herself.  

Elaine looked kind of bored.  

Didn't she say "Jeff, you give me a hillbilly thing like that to do, and I can do it all day," or something? 

LOL.

[Josh371982]

31 minutes ago, Libby said:

I find Noura's personality enjoyable. I think that she's hilarious. Karishma, on the other hand is a sad sack. She's no fun to watch in my opinion.

Shes enjoyable when shes being an annoying bossy bitch?

[Bryce Lynch]

Noura seems to have a problem with people sleeping.  Earlier in the season she was upset that other tribe members were sleeping, in middle of the night, while she worked on the fire, or something. 

Now she complains that Karishma is the first to go to sleep and the last to wake up.  I'm not sure what value there would be to Karishma staying up late.  

I can understand her being upset if Karishma isn't doing anything around camp, but he irritation with people sleeping at night is odd.  I wonder if she is an insomniac or a vampire.  

[Drogo]

21 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

She acts like she's Michael Corleone taking out a hit on Tessio, but she's so stupid that she gave the job to Fredo.

Poetry.  Absolute poetry. And while we're at it.. some other Godfather Missy moments from the season.

Angry at the ball for leaving the hoop without permission..

Spoiler

Getting creative with her Kellee/Dan commiseration...

Spoiler

Attempting to talk game with Karishma...

Spoiler

Upon seeing Aaron has joined the jury...

Spoiler

Watching her master plan unfold at TC...

Spoiler

[iMonrey]

And once again, the person who everyone wants to vote out just happens to find an idol. And she's not even looking for an idol, she's looking for coconuts. Well, how conveeenient.

Quote

Bullies don’t think they are bullies.

Yeah, I had to laugh at Missy's argument in her defense. "I know what I am and when I look in the mirror I like what I see." Well, so do a lot of bullies. Liking yourself does not preclude your being a bully.

And she really cracked me up when Tommy said "You came after me," and she said "I didn't come after you!" Uh, Missy? Jeff just read the votes, we know whose name you wrote down. 

She was a good sport going out, I'll give her that.

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I also liked how being around all these devious aholes made [Karishma] appreciate having a husband who loves her.

5 hours ago, violet and green said:

Yeah, that was a really nice moment. I like her story arc!

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

That was back when her husband was a dud her parents had saddled her with.

I was hoping someone besides me remembered Karishma’s earlier moaning and bitching about how her parents forced her into a loveless arranged marriage - guess she changed her mind, huh?  Although after Karishma’s woe-is-me tale in Ep2 or Ep3, I halfway wonder if her husband filed for divorce between that episode and this one.

Quote

Elizabeth's love you to Aaron read the same way to me.

This irritated me to no end.  Was it S1 or S2 that Peachy raked one of the players over the coals for making “friendship bracelets” for two of the Jurors - and set the precedent of absolutely NO direct interaction OR discussion between active players and jurors during the TCs?  TPTB suddenly seem to have trouble enforcing ANY of the rules these days, it seems.  😛

53 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

[Missy] acts like she's Michael Corleone taking out a hit on Tessio, but she's so stupid that she gave the job to Fredo.

Thank you for this.  🤣🤣🤣

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nashville
Punctuation

[JudyObscure]

It don't know if it was one of her Godfather moments exactly, but a few weeks ago, before I got mad at Missy I was laughing at her "cheer leading" while her tribe mates were working one of those big  puzzles.  She was jumping up and down screaming in rage the entire time while her co-cheerleader Tommy was making big Hulk muscles and growling. I told my husband  then that Missy didn't so much cheer people on as threaten them with death if they didn't win.  Foreshadowing to the Elaine mincing I guess. 

[laurakaye]

56 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

There was something about the way Noura and the others reacted to Karishma's "Illness" that rubbed me the wrong way.  It seemed like they were more motivated by being in control and getting their way than out of genuine concern for her health.   

This, exactly.  I used the word "bully" earlier in response to this and what I meant is that when Noura told Karishma she was going to call medical, it seemed more of a threat than any true concern.  And I get it, Karishma has been edited to be a lazy drama queen but I'd still take her winning this game over anyone left not named Janet.

Plus I think this season has made me jumpy and looking for subtext when maybe there is none there, but that's probably going to be the case for duration of this season. 

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

She was a good sport going out, I'll give her that.

Her repeated screams on the way out were over the top, IMO.  Not a fan.

Edited November 21, 2019 by laurakaye

[himela]

9 hours ago, Sarnia said:

So what happened to Jeff's "I will always bring it up" to Dan last week?

After watching this last episode I am convinced that Jeff and the producers thought that the story would end after Dan apologized in the last tribal council. They didn't expect that people would get so annoyed, sad, irritated, angry and all other feelings about this story with Dan. They thought they had handled it well and the apology was the end to it.

[Jeanne222]

1 hour ago, Libby said:

I find Noura's personality enjoyable. I think that she's hilarious. Karishma, on the other hand is a sad sack. She's no fun to watch in my opinion.

They both have 'piss me off' personalities but they are still in the game!!

[SuburbanHangSuite]

13 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I appreciate Elizabeth giving my first eyes-bugging-out-of-the-head moment at TC tonight.  I loved the look on Missy’s face, too, when she saw Aaron seeing there.  

I liked Jeff kind of calling Missy out when she said the jury wasn’t supposed to be looking like that.  Not sure Kellee appreciated the comment, either.  

Unlike last week, I’ve watched this TC numerous times.  Gets better each time!

9 hours ago, dstann said:

Since Missy wanted recognition that 2 minorities won immunity last week, is it ok to point out that the same 2 minorities both got blindsided this week?  I mean just for balance to show representation that minorities can be on the top and bottom.

3 hours ago, Special K said:

I'm a little ashamed at how much gleeful cackling was heard in my house when:

1. Elizabeth and Missy saw Aaron sitting in the jury

2. Missy, one of Elizabeth's number ones, got voted out.

High and mighty Elizabeth had such a cartoony bug-eyed shocked face, that I LOLed for a long time.

Ok, I'm not really that ashamed.

These TCs were incredibly satisfying for so many reasons:

- Aaron's sullen countenance at having to join the jury. 

- Missy & Elizabeth's shock at seeing him sitting there.

- Dumbass Elizabeth talking too much by admitting that Missy and Karishma had squashed their beef (Ummm...wasn't that supposed to be a secret from Tommy and Elaine?!)

- But the cherry on my sundae had to be when Missy made a big deal about 2 blacks holding simultaneous Immunity.  I turned to my son and said, "If she's not careful, she'll be talking about those same 2 blacks holding consecutive Jury Seats."   And then it happened.  And I couldn't stop laughing.  Can we make it a Triple Play next week and get Lauren's useless ass next?  (Not because she's black, because she grates.  And because it'll piss off Missy even more.)

Boston Rob:  "Aaron's going home."  LOVE.

[Tryangle]

16 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

I really cannot believe people are bringing up race in the last few boots. Missy was very very nasty and it doesn’t matter what color she is she deserved the vote. Same with Aaron. Race/ ethnicity was not a factor in there votes and rather than trying to link the last 3 boots with color , why not celebrate that there is such huge diversity in the cast. 

I think there have been issues regarding race within the show over the years, but what Missy brought up was absolutely definitely positively not one of them, one single bit, and for her to insinuate there was an issue with the Kellee-Jamal-Aaron pattern, cringe.

Very bad episode for Missy all around, frankly. She totally failed to read the room with Kirishma (and likely failed her social game with her days back).

15 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Whatever happened to "The person voted out will be asked to leave the tribal council area immediately?

Why was Missy allowed to linger, interrogate the people still in the game, tell Elizabeth to target Elaine, etc?  

Only thing that could be a defense might be related to Aaron being sent to the jury (hence, lingering around), but that's straw-clutching at best. Get back control of your castaways, Probst.

Elaine is really going to ride this simple redneck that doesn't know whats going on schtick all the way to the end, isn't she.

It really would be something to have a Janet-Elaine-Kirishma F3, though. And with no physical threats left (Dean seems average at best, as does Elizabeth), it's quite possible. Sign me up for that.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Tryangle

[SuburbanHangSuite]

3 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

I think there have been issues regarding race within the show over the years, but what Missy brought up was absolutely definitely positively not one of them, one single bit, and for her to insinuate there was an issue with the Kellee-Jamal-Aaron pattern, cringe.

Oh, shit!  I didn't even realize that there were two other minorities voted to the Jury immediately before this Aaron/ Missy  vote.  And I'm pulling for Lauren to go next?  I'd better watch out---Missy might have my Black Card revoked.

[Tryangle]

11 minutes ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

Oh, shit!  I didn't even realize that there were two other minorities voted to the Jury immediately before this Aaron/ Missy  vote.  And I'm pulling for Lauren to go next?  I'd better watch out---Missy might have my Black Card revoked.

Shoot they could go Lauren-Kirishma back to back to see how Missy reacts.

If the lightbulb's gone off for Kirishma to become a major player from here on out, she's still in a dicey situation. I can't see her getting votes if she gets to the end, she may have to latch onto Lauren and Noura and display some versatility/adaptability.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Tryangle

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'd say [Missy] is more of a narcissist than a bully. 

I agree SO strongly with this.  Missy’s behavior is less about forcing her will upon others, and more about simply not recognizing that other people are independent entities, with motivations and free wills separate of her own.  To Missy, other people are not really “people”; they are simply walk-on actors in The Missy Show, starring Missy (“that’s ME!”).

Nowhere was this more evident than this episode’s testy initial exchange between Missy and Karishma:

1. Missy is not talking TO Karishma, or WITH her - Missy is purely talking AT Karishma, treating her as little more than a foot soldier whose sole job is to receive her marching orders from General Missy.
2. When Karishma initially starts to step away, Missy is purely annoyed - hey, I’m not done talking yet - and she repeatedly grabs Karishma‘s arm and pulls her back, like a parent correcting a disobedient child; again, showing a lack of acknowledgement of Karishma as an independent adult with free will.
3. When Karishma finally DOES leave, Missy is dumbfounded - how could she just up and leave when *I* haven’t finished what I wanted to stay??? - yet again showing Missy’s total incomprehension at another’s display of independent will separate from her own.

In just this short exchange Missy’s narcissism is written in fire in letters thirty feet high on the far side of the Quentulus Quazgar Mountains in the land of Sevorbeupstry on the planet of Preliumtarn, which orbits the star Zarss, which is located in the Grey Binding Fiefdoms of Saxaquine.  I don’t know if Missy’s behavior crosses the line between narcissism and sociopathy - but then again, I’m not a psychiatrist.  🙂 

[MrsR]

Bully, Narcissist. Heh!

I'll just say it. I think she's a mild sociopath. Creepy, completely creepy.

Maybe she's too young to remember Fiji and it's all black final 3.

Quote

Missy is so horrendous she might be the new Corrine. I don't know if she's a bully -- Tommy said that she bullies Karishma, but Tommy is a fourth-grade teacher so his standards for what is and isn't bullying are looser -- but she's definitely mean as hell and she lies as easily as she breathes. Her shocked, "I didn't come after you!" to Tommy right after she came after him, and her abject apology to Karishma blending seamlessly into her confessional where she's so proud of herself for faking that apology, and her pretending it's all good with Elaine right after telling Elizabeth to "kill her slowly and methodically," which LOL. She acts like she's Michael Corleone taking out a hit on Tessio, but she's so stupid that she gave the job to Fredo.

That had me slapping my desk and roaring. Best paragraph, EVAH!

[Ellee]

In both BB and Survivor, I'm still of the belief that some of these people come in with the whole season written with them as the star and that they forget that other people play a role.

After watching Ponderosa with Aaron/Missy, I'm kind of leaning towards them just being strong competitors.  Elizabeth too.  Some lose sight of what they are doing.  It's a game, compete.  Play hard.  It's what they have done in organized sports.  Other aspects of the game get lost.

Yuck.  That says a whole lot of nothing.  Hopefully someone will be able to translate what I mean in English.  🙄

[mojoween]

To advocate for myself for a moment, because I did bring it up, I’m not in any way insinuating that anyone who voted last night was racist.

I mean, Aaron without immunity was a no-brainer to bounce, because who knew when you would get another chance?

I’m just saying it LOOKS BAD, optic-wise. Like the Outcast Attic from Big Brother, but in Fiji.

[Mr. Miner]

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

She acts like she's Michael Corleone taking out a hit on Tessio, but she's so stupid that she gave the job to Fredo.

Yeah! Fredo was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! players couldn't get a drink at the tables.

[candall]

16 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

….

When nobody goes to the IOTI, what do Rob and Sandra do? Do they have to live like the contestants?

Ahh!  This is the very thing that bugged me about <snort> Island of the Idols. <jazz hands>  

I think this is the last threshold that Probst hadn't yet carried Boston Rob across, honeymoon style.  "Hey, why don't you come with me on location at Fiji and we'll hang?  They can set up a big air-conditioned tent for you right next to mine and wait 'til you see the craft services--fresh mangoes every morning, lobster every night.  You 'n me and a big Cohiba!   We'll find some way to make it all legit with production."

>

>

Ha.  I'd bet that Jeff Probst is kind of bored with the gig and having Rob (&Sandra) come along to play with him makes it fun and freshens up the experience for him.

Rob (&Sandra) probably aren't interested in going back to sweat it out while the rats run over their faces, but sharing the Jeff Probst experience as on-camera talent?  A whole different Survivor.

>

>

All-in-all, you can tell they had to jackhammer the Rob &Sandra roles into the seasonal theme, but it's not as obnoxious or obtrusive as I anticipated.  The two of them hiding in that little box, peeking through the cracks and making snarky Greek chorus comments is even pretty funny.

Edited November 21, 2019 by candall
Primetimer will not respect the spacing I choose.

[Ms Blue Jay]

27 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Maybe she's too young to remember Fiji and it's all black final 3.

1 all black final 3 out of 39 seasons?  You think that proves that the contestants of this show DON'T vote out minorities and women first?

21 minutes ago, mojoween said:

To advocate for myself for a moment, because I did bring it up, I’m not in any way insinuating that anyone who voted last night was racist.

I wish people were more open to talking about it, and I wish Missy's statement didn't upset people.  Nothing she said was remotely insulting.  Or even untrue.   Everyone's laughing about all of the minorities on the jury……….This only goes to prove Missy's point more.  People tend to vote out women and minorities before men and non-minorities.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[ProfCrash]

18 minutes ago, Ellee said:

In both BB and Survivor, I'm still of the belief that some of these people come in with the whole season written with them as the star and that they forget that other people play a role.

After watching Ponderosa with Aaron/Missy, I'm kind of leaning towards them just being strong competitors.  Elizabeth too.  Some lose sight of what they are doing.  It's a game, compete.  Play hard.  It's what they have done in organized sports.  Other aspects of the game get lost.

Yuck.  That says a whole lot of nothing.  Hopefully someone will be able to translate what I mean in English.  🙄

I hear you. Missy, Aaron, and Elisabeth come from very competitive backgrounds and sometimes you lose track of the fact that not everyone comes from that background. They are used to interacting with people like them. Driven, consumed, and very focused. And when they go into competitive mode, they get tunnel vision.

That does not excuse Missy or Elisabeth's awful choices during the season. They should be cognizant of the line between real world and game play. I don't care about lying in the game, that is a part of the game. "Kill" you grandma all you want. Lie about your age or your occupation. Lie to the person that they are safe. Stab your ally in the back.

BUT when you start crossing ethical lines, like lying about harassment or outing other peoples sexuality or actually harassing someone you are simply wrong. And Missy and Elisabeth should have known that.

That said, I can see Missy and Elisabeth not understanding how to communicate with Karishma because Karishma is not the type of competitor that they are used to working with or competing against. They have no clue how to handle someone who is not a type A personality who is hyper focused on competition.

[lostmydamnmind]

5 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

Seeing her and Elizabeth s faces with Aaron on the Jury after their Horridness last week was so Satisfying!! And the Uppity " Jury shouldn't be looking like that?" Why cause U say so Bitch? Cause Aaron's worthy of being in the game but Janet isnt? Fuck off Missy

Uggghhh, can we retire THAT word? I'm no fan of Missy at all (I cackled over both votes last night), but that word has a demonstrably racist history and should never be used to describe someone.

[MrsR]

12 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This only goes to prove Missy's point more.  People tend to vote out women and minorities before men and non-minorities.  

Have you forgotten the first half of this game? Ron, Vince, Molly, Chelsea, Jason, Jack, Tom. 

[tiredofwork]

Wow... I am disheartened at the vitriol being leveled at Missy..  I understand she is not likable  for her personality and game play but the fact that she took note of an achievement of something not done before on the show by two African/American persons is to some offensive and "racist"?    

I think the whole, "those who see race is racist" is a really, really bad argument to make when it comes to being Af/Am and recognizing the imbalance still of society on us as Af/Am..  INCLUDING This ultimate social game of Survivor and of course all those Af/Am Big Brother winners... (not)

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.

I think this season has just been the last for me of Survivor.. I think because in general, I see people are just becoming more and more assholish..     

I look forward to the straight up competition of Amazing Race.

[amazingracefan]

This season the producers have wanted to stress wider issues over gameplay, but Survivor has very much developed around having largely ultra-competitive people on it playing the game hard.  That's what differentiates it from Big Brother.  Many have likely disliked this season as the focus has changed. 

And like most reality shows it's about putting people who aren't likely to get along in a closed environment and watching the sparks fly. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by amazingracefan

[Special K]

4 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.
 

I think it's great that she brought it up and more discussion about discrimination on Survivor is good.  Maybe she should have brought it up during last week's TC so we could've cut short Dan's reprehensible "apology."

I just don't think she should've dinged Jeff for not bringing it up, because if he had, I'm sure it would have been seen, at best, as problematic for him to do so.  Maybe even by Missy, who knows?

[Al Herkimer]

6 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

Wow... I am disheartened at the vitriol being leveled at Missy..  I understand she is not likable  for her personality and game play but the fact that she took note of an achievement of something not done before on the show by two African/American persons is to some offensive and "racist"?    

I think the whole, "those who see race is racist" is a really, really bad argument to make when it comes to being Af/Am and recognizing the imbalance still of society on us as Af/Am..  INCLUDING This ultimate social game of Survivor and of course all those Af/Am Big Brother winners... (not)

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.

I think this season has just been the last for me of Survivor.. I think because in general, I see people are just becoming more and more assholish..     

I look forward to the straight up competition of Amazing Race.

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't disagree that it's a valid milestone, though like many others in this thread I didn't know that Aaron is African-American.

But I do believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if Probst had pointed that milestone out, in any fashion, it would have seemed hamfisted and patronizing, and that he would be being raked over the coals for it all over the internet.

[zscore]

45 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

1 all black final 3 out of 39 seasons?  You think that proves that the contestants of this show DON'T vote out minorities and women first?

Having one all black final 3 in 39 seasons is pretty amazing.

Assuming each season has 20 players and 5 of them are black (they often have 3 or 4), and the final 3 are completely random. The probability of an all black final 3 is 0.0087 ( 1 in 114 seasons). 

Also assuming that 50% of the players are women, we will have all women final 3 in about once in 10 seasons. I think it happened three times (16,24,29) so not very different from the expected value. Now we have 6 females and 3 males left, there is 24% chance we will have all-female final 3 this season. 

Interestingly, there has only been one all-male final 3.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by zscore

[MrsR]

Cook Island had an all minority final 4.

Was Yau Man a final 4 in Fiji?

Edited November 21, 2019 by MrsR

[HurricaneVal]

I kind of have a different take on the Missy/Karishima conversation.  Yes, Missy was obnoxious and was treating Karishima like a stupid child, and Karishima was right to resent that, but Missy was trying to tell Karishima that she was NOT the target, so she didn't need to be so mopey and down in the dumps, and that the target was actually going to be Tommy. 

They were both in the wrong, and it is a classic example of really bad communication.  Karishima just shut down, she assumed she knew what the conversation was going to be about, and stopped listening and just wanted to escape.  Missy, frustrated that Karishima wasn't listening to Queen Missy, high strategist of the alliance of me-me-me, just kept doubling down on being patronizing and belittling.  It did not help that she basically started the conversation implying that Karishima was the target, which immediately made Karishima stop listening, when in fact Missy was trying to tell Karishima the opposite.  It was a complete farce, and kind of uncomfortable to watch.  It was literally the worst personality aspects of both of them on display, front and center.

Hell, watching Karishima stumble vaguely out of the jungle, clutching her two coconuts like a lifeline, and looking like a shell-shocked victim walking away from a plane crash, I would be compelled to call for medical too!  She waaaaay oversold that "not feeling well" excuse to hide why she'd been absent for over an hour.  Then their interrogation about how one sip of water made her miraculously better exposed that now they had a deep suspicion of her story.  Karishima would have been better served to make up a different story, like "Production pulled me aside for a quick interview, and that took up a lot of time.  It only left me time to find these two coconuts!  Dammit...." 

It still wasn't a good look on Noura though, the way she was going after Karishima like a pit bull.  I think between that and the way Missy was treating her, Karishima has zero respect from the rest of the castaways.  Everyone has acknowledged that she's a total goat--even Karishima.  I hope she plays that idol to good effect, but judging by her general lack of awareness of game and strategy makes me think she's going to misplay, or otherwise screw up using her idol.

Edited November 21, 2019 by HurricaneVal
words

[zscore]

4 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Cook Island had an all minority final 4.

Was Yau Man a final 4 in Fiji?

Yes. Both Cook Island and Fiji had 75% minority players, which gives you 28% chance of an all minority final 4. Amazingly it happened both times.

[Jeanne222]

16 minutes ago, Special K said:

I think it's great that she brought it up and more discussion about discrimination on Survivor is good.  Maybe she should have brought it up during last week's TC so we could've cut short Dan's reprehensible "apology."

I just don't think she should've dinged Jeff for not bringing it up, because if he had, I'm sure it would have been seen, at best, as problematic for him to do so.  Maybe even by Missy, who knows?

Yep that's what I was thinking!  Jeff had to say nothing to avoid racism!  Missy got away with it!

I don't for a minute think players were voted out due to race.  They were a threat or an asshole!

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Poetry.  Absolute poetry. And while we're at it.. some other Godfather Missy moments from the season.

Angry at the ball for leaving the hoop without permission..

  Hide contents

Getting creative with her Kellee/Dan commiseration...

  Hide contents

Attempting to talk game with Karishma...

  Hide contents

Upon seeing Aaron has joined the jury...

  Hide contents

Watching her master plan unfold at TC...

  Hide contents

Tommy to Missy after Tribal:

[Lady Calypso]

26 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.

I agree that it was important to bring up. As someone who's new to Survivor, for the most part, and missed out on, like, 30+ seasons, I haven't witnessed a lot of this so finding out this type of information is new and informative for me as I figure out exactly where to start in terms of catching up. 

I think the issue with Missy bringing it up is that, like the sexual harassment debacle of last episode, instead of using that information as a way to inform the audience and to make a valid point, she used it as strategy because, in this particular case, she knew that she was in danger of going home. I felt like she used it as a veiled threat, as in "If you vote me out, you'll be perceived as racist!" She used it at the very last moment, right before voting, so it felt like she awkwardly interjected it in. I wish the subject had come up more naturally, because it's obviously something that should be discussed.

I would have liked the moment more if she had not used it in the way that she did. If it had worked, then her ally Elizabeth would have gone instead (and my first thought when Missy commented about the jury, so far, being mostly POC, was "ok, so then they'll send your only other ally to jury instead! Problem solved!" which I would have been fine with because I hate Elizabeth way more). And, I mean, great, she would have stayed in the game, but she would have had no allies left. Lauren is her only other potential ally and...well, Lauren isn't a very good gameplayer, herself. 

Missy tried using it as strategy but this time around, it didn't work. It sucks for her, but she was voted out because of her gameplay. She was voted out because she tried to make a move to get Tommy out and used Karishma, who saw through her act, and decided to use Tommy and Elaine to strike back at Missy and Elizabeth. Elaine knew that she was at the bottom of Missy/Elizabeth's alliance and she was close with Tommy, so it made sense for her to vote out Missy instead. Karishma felt used by Missy. Tommy obviously wasn't voting for himself to leave. So it is important to note that Missy being voted out was because Missy overplayed and she got caught.

Similar to how Aaron got voted out because he made himself a competitive threat over Janet. That's why these two particular eliminations made sense to me. 

All that being said....Dan and Elizabeth should have left instead of Aaron and Missy. Dan for his sexual harassment not being dealt with by the producers properly. I know Aaron's a bigger threat, but Dan's more gross. And Elizabeth is more offensive than Missy is. Elizabeth's downright manipulative and can play people better. Missy's more obvious and I do think people have noticed over time that she can't really be trusted. 

[Bryce Lynch]

35 minutes ago, zscore said:

Having one all black final 3 in 39 seasons is pretty amazing.

Assuming each season has 20 players and 5 of them are black (they often have 3 or 4), and the final 3 are completely random. The probability of an all black final 3 is 0.0087 ( 1 in 114 seasons). 

Also assuming that 50% of the players are women, we will have all women final 3 in about once in 10 seasons. I think it happened three times (16,24,29) so not very different from the expected value. Now we have 6 females and 3 males left, there is 24% chance we will have all-female final 3 this season. 

Interestingly, there has only been one all-male final 3.  

Great info.  It is amazing how different statistics seem when you actually understand them.

[Cornhusker12]

I am so weirded out that people didn't think Aaron was black!? What in the world?? Haha

[Tryangle]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

To advocate for myself for a moment, because I did bring it up, I’m not in any way insinuating that anyone who voted last night was racist.

...

I’m just saying it LOOKS BAD, optic-wise. Like the Outcast Attic from Big Brother, but in Fiji.

I get that and if you're seeing it in a vacuum it's understandable. But firstly, these guys, Kellee, Jamal, Aaron, Missy, are all on the jury. They weren't the first boots. Secondly, it appeared that Missy was trying a bit of a guilt-trip to save her own bacon as opposed to a legitimate concern about the makeup of said jury. I don't think it was intentional but abrupt and out of nowhere.

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I agree that it was important to bring up. As someone who's new to Survivor, for the most part, and missed out on, like, 30+ seasons, I haven't witnessed a lot of this so finding out this type of information is new and informative for me as I figure out exactly where to start in terms of catching up. 

I think the issue with Missy bringing it up is that, like the sexual harassment debacle of last episode, instead of using that information as a way to inform the audience and to make a valid point, she used it as strategy because, in this particular case, she knew that she was in danger of going home. I felt like she used it as a veiled threat, as in "If you vote me out, you'll be perceived as racist!" She used it at the very last moment, right before voting, so it felt like she awkwardly interjected it in. I wish the subject had come up more naturally, because it's obviously something that should be discussed.

I would have liked the moment more if she had not used it in the way that she did. If it had worked, then her ally Elizabeth would have gone instead (and my first thought when Missy commented about the jury, so far, being mostly POC, was "ok, so then they'll send your only other ally to jury instead! Problem solved!" which I would have been fine with because I hate Elizabeth way more). And, I mean, great, she would have stayed in the game, but she would have had no allies left. Lauren is her only other potential ally and...well, Lauren isn't a very good gameplayer, herself. 

Missy tried using it as strategy but this time around, it didn't work. It sucks for her, but she was voted out because of her gameplay. She was voted out because she tried to make a move to get Tommy out and used Karishma, who saw through her act, and decided to use Tommy and Elaine to strike back at Missy and Elizabeth. Elaine knew that she was at the bottom of Missy/Elizabeth's alliance and she was close with Tommy, so it made sense for her to vote out Missy instead. Karishma felt used by Missy. Tommy obviously wasn't voting for himself to leave. So it is important to note that Missy being voted out was because Missy overplayed and she got caught.

Similar to how Aaron got voted out because he made himself a competitive threat over Janet. That's why these two particular eliminations made sense to me. 

All of this. None of the recent members of the jury were voted out because they were people of colour, they were simply outplayed for various reasons.

[Cornhusker12]

2 hours ago, himela said:

After watching this last episode I am convinced that Jeff and the producers thought that the story would end after Dan apologized in the last tribal council. They didn't expect that people would get so annoyed, sad, irritated, angry and all other feelings about this story with Dan. They thought they had handled it well and the apology was the end to it.

Agreed, and I think it also showed that the situation on the island still seemed less clear than it was, and how it was shown in the actual episode. I really don't think people understood the severity of the situation at all without the benefit of seeing the footage. Once Missy realized Kellee was still planning to vote her out after their tearful convo, I think everyone other than Kellee and Janet assumed things were being exaggerated or used for effect within the strategy of the game. And judging by how everyone including Janet just moved on this week, I still don't think it hit home how crazy the situation was until they saw the actual episode on tv.

Edited November 21, 2019 by huskerj12

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, tiredofwork said:

Wow... I am disheartened at the vitriol being leveled at Missy..  I understand she is not likable  for her personality and game play but the fact that she took note of an achievement of something not done before on the show by two African/American persons is to some offensive and "racist"?    

I think the whole, "those who see race is racist" is a really, really bad argument to make when it comes to being Af/Am and recognizing the imbalance still of society on us as Af/Am..  INCLUDING This ultimate social game of Survivor and of course all those Af/Am Big Brother winners... (not)

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.

I think this season has just been the last for me of Survivor.. I think because in general, I see people are just becoming more and more assholish..     

I look forward to the straight up competition of Amazing Race.

IMO, if you think it matters whether 2 black players, 2 white players 2 Asian players, 2 Latino players or some combination of different ethnic groups won immunity, you are at least a little racist. 

If you think it through it is quite illogical and offensive.

Does 2 black players winning mean "Wow, all black people are awesome!"

If 2 white players won would it mean, "Damn, all black people suck!"?  

Of course not, to both questions.  

Missy's glory in winning immunity and her shame in her despicable behavior are her own.   Neither reflect in any way on black people in general   

I am white and I take no pride in white players doing well or shame in them doing poorly.  It has nothing to do with me.  My complexion didn't help them win, or make them lose.   It doesn't make me look good when they win or bad when they lose.  

The same is true of their moral failures.  Dan and Elizabeth have behaved extremely shamefully, but that is not on me, it is on them.

Likewise, Janet's courage and integrity are not mine to boast about because we are of the same "race".   

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[sara416]

1 hour ago, tiredofwork said:

Wow... I am disheartened at the vitriol being leveled at Missy..  I understand she is not likable  for her personality and game play but the fact that she took note of an achievement of something not done before on the show by two African/American persons is to some offensive and "racist"?    

I think the whole, "those who see race is racist" is a really, really bad argument to make when it comes to being Af/Am and recognizing the imbalance still of society on us as Af/Am..  INCLUDING This ultimate social game of Survivor and of course all those Af/Am Big Brother winners... (not)

I understand you who are not Black may not want to hear it and that is your right.. But I don;t think it was a Capitol crime for Missy to bring up a valid milestone.

Yep, all of this. I am pissed at Missy for the way she handled the Dan/Kellee thing and am was more than happy to see her go. However, she made valid and accurate points. Both of those things can be true: she can be unlikeable AND make good points about race and gender in these competitions. She's not wrong. 

[sara416]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

IMO, if you think it matters whether 2 black players, 2 white players 2 Asian players, 2 Latino players or some combination of different ethnic groups won immunity, you are at least a little racist. 

If you think it through it is quite illogical and offensive.

Does 2 black players winning mean "Wow, all black people are awesome!"

If 2 white players won would it mean, "Damn, all black people suck!"?  

Of course not, to both questions.  

Missy's glory in winning immunity and her shame in her despicable behavior are her own.   Neither reflect in anyway on black people in general   

I am white and I take no pride in white players doing well or shame in them doing poorly.  It has nothing to do with me.  My complexion didn't help them win, or make them lose.   It doesn't make me look good when they win or bad when they lose.  

The same is true of their moral failures.  Dan and Elizabeth have behaved extremely shamefully, but that is not on me, it is on them.

Likewise, Janet's courage and integrity are not mine to boast about because we are of the same "race".   

Of course it doesn't mean that all black/white people are good/bad/whatever. But MIssy said it well when she said representation matters. As white people, we have spent our entire lives seeing people in the media, fictional characters or not, played in a positive AND negative light. But for a long time, African Americans were not even in the media, and even now have a tendency to be shown in a negative or derogatory way. Of course, there are examples of positive people of color on television. But anecdotal evidence is not statistically sound proof of anything. It matters when people see people that look like them in the media, especially young people. 

*I'm just a white person, recognizing my own priviliege in this situation. I'm sure there are others that could explain it better*

[himela]

Seeing the discussion here and other places I think the producers won. We talk only about issues they fed us like Missy being a bully and the race of people voted out.

[EllenB]

Contestants thinking they are preordained to be the winner has been a problem on many seasons.  I first noticed it with Tom the fireman - he had seemed so likeable most of his season, and he and Ian were both awesome together, then near the end Tom got all "How DARE you think you should win instead fabulous ME?" instead of "May the best person win," which seemed to be Ian's (and other remaining players') attitude.  That left a really bad taste in my mouth, and has made me root against anyone who is too cocky.

[grandmabegum]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That's what I said a few pages back. Not cool at all.

Quote

Speaking of boundaries, Missy grabbed Karishma's arm, multiple times, as she tried to walk away from her attempt to talk to at her, to prevent her from leaving.    

[Bryce Lynch]

44 minutes ago, sara416 said:

Of course it doesn't mean that all black/white people are good/bad/whatever. But MIssy said it well when she said representation matters. As white people, we have spent our entire lives seeing people in the media, fictional characters or not, played in a positive AND negative light. But for a long time, African Americans were not even in the media, and even now have a tendency to be shown in a negative or derogatory way. Of course, there are examples of positive people of color on television. But anecdotal evidence is not statistically sound proof of anything. It matters when people see people that look like them in the media, especially young people. 

*I'm just a white person, recognizing my own priviliege in this situation. I'm sure there are others that could explain it better*

This is not about "privilege".   People who obsess about "race" and base their own reputations, self esteem, sense of accomplishment on it choose to do so.

Missy seems to have decided that all other black people get credit and blame for what she does and that she gets credit and blame for whatever all other black people do.  

IMO, this type of collective racial credit and blame is the basis of all racism, and is incredibly destructive.  

No reasonable person looks at Missy and Aaron and attribute their positive or negative attributes to black people at large.   Missy is the one promoting this.   She is choosing to be judged collectively as a member of a "race", it is not being imposed on her.  To the extent any idiots do impose that on her, she ought to be opposing it, not embracing the irrational, unfair and destructive way of thinking.   

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch