S03.E08: Dangling Man

[formerlyfreedom]

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As Charles begins dating Camilla Shand, Elizabeth considers visiting an ill Duke of Windsor in Paris, whose destiny changed when he met Wallis Simpson.

 

Dropping on Netflix on Sunday, November 17, 2019.

[phoenics]

Wait - Princess Anne and Andrew Parker-Bowles?  LOL WTF?

[shipmate]

Does Charles not know about the Nazi issues with his uncle?  Thst previously seemed to become the bigger issue for the family pushing him away, versus marrying the divorcee after that all was discovered.

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, shipmate said:

Does Charles not know about the Nazi issues with his uncle?  Thst previously seemed to become the bigger issue for the family pushing him away, versus marrying the divorcee after that all was discovered.

I had the same question... I'm watching the episode right now and it appears he doesn't know... You can tell he's identifying strongly with Edward.

[swanpride]

I mostly wondered about the writers having forgotten. I am honestly not sure if they expect the audience to recognize how delusional the represented version of history is, or if they don't care.

Speaking of history, this episode really disappointed me. And not just because I really don't care for uncle creep, but mostly because it skipped over the event I was actually interested in, that being the UK trying to join the EU (back then still the EC). I kind of didn't expect that the fact that they failed two times because France blocked the notion to be relegated to a throw away sentences, or that they wouldn't address the discussions which happened back then at all. In general, I kind of miss the old Phillip. The actor two, but above all I miss him commenting on political events. While I am not sure that the real Phillip ever was that astute, it was actually the thing which I found the most sympathetic about the character, In the last two seasons, he had a pretty good grasp on the need to keep an eye on what was happening in the country and the mood of the population, some which made perfectly sense, considering his childhood. But now he seems to be even more removed from reality than anyone else.

Anyway, I had hoped to get more of a glimpse on the reasoning why joining the EC was so important (not that I don't know them, but I would have liked to see them more in context), the mood in the country back them (outside of: We are in economic deep sh... that is), and most importantly, I would have liked to see the French featured a little bit. It's not like de Gaulle blocked the UK on a whim after all.

In general, I think a reminder that there isn't just the UK and the US but also France would have done the show some good. There were a lot of powerplays happening back then, with France being keen on minimizing the influence of the US on the continent, and the UK kind of caught up in the middle.

[andromeda331]

I had the same question about Charles knowing anything about Great-Uncle Nazi. It really seemed like he didn't. Which if you don't want him be sympathetic to Edward VIII maybe tell him that part? That probably would end it. Also maybe showing some love towards him might help just in general.

I didn't know about Anne and Andrew. That was interesting. Also I really liked that she really didn't care. She just wanted fun. 

[PeterPirate]

I think the prank Charles played on Camilla is a key moment of the entire series.  Seeing any member of the royal family laugh out loud is a rarity for this show. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by PeterPirate

[Yokosmom]

Much as I like Jacobi, I much preferred Alex Jennings in the role.  The DOW totally snowed Charles, with bs about he was pushed out because he was such a rebel and individualist.  He left out the part where he couldn't be bothered to do any of his kingly duties (red boxes, meetings with the government, etc) and would have been a lousy king regardless of whether Mrs. Simpson was on the scene.  But of course, no one in the royal family apparently talked to Charles about much of anything.  Charles was supposedly close to the Queen mother.  I'm surprised that she didn't give him an earful regarding Uncle Nazi.  On the other hand, Charles was a very young man in this episode and of course he is going to relate to someone being a rebel and marrying for love.

I loved the exploding card, and the fact that Camilla enjoyed it too was a good sign that they were in sync, at least as regards humor.

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Wait - Princess Anne and Andrew Parker-Bowles?  LOL WTF?

I know!  I never heard of that.  Surely they didn't make it up for the show?  They've made a lot of other things up, but surely that would be a bridge too far?

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

Much as I like Jacobi, I much preferred Alex Jennings in the role.  The DOW totally snowed Charles, with bs about he was pushed out because he was such a rebel and individualist.  He left out the part where he couldn't be bothered to do any of his kingly duties (red boxes, meetings with the government, etc) and would have been a lousy king regardless of whether Mrs. Simpson was on the scene.  

Plus, his claim that the Court and his family forced him out was a lie. Nobody could have done it. Certainly not the duke and duchess of York who didn't want to become King and Queen, nor his mother or Prime Minister Baldwin who both begged him to reconcider his decision. It was he who made the decision to abdicate instead of giving up to his plan to marry Wallis whom he could have had as his mistress. 

[swanpride]

And he was working with the Nazis.

Sorry, but this can't be mentioned often enough. If he had stayed in power, the history of the whole continent would have most likely moved to the worse. I shudder to think what would have happened if Germany and the UK had joined in some sort of dual dictatorship.

[Lazlo]

I get the impression the show intended us to see Charles's sympathy for the Duke of Windsor as misplaced, even actively manipulated by the Duke and Duchess.

Whatever his other issues Charles (at least as seen in the show) is someone with a strong if frustrated sense of duty. The Duke just seems completely feckless and self serving. 

[Helena Dax]

I don't think Uncle Nazi deserved such an epic shot for his death. You know, the music, the slow-mo etc. He was a Nazi and a traitor, after all. However, his moment of final vanity was amazing, so true to himself!  Also, I was surprised to see Wallis so affected by his death because half of the time I got the feeling that she despised him.

I loved how much Philip hated him, but I guess Elizabeth needed to have that little last moment with him.

I'm not very familiar with Camilla, but the actress doesn't remind me of her at all. Is she good?

Anne is a total badass.

[jschoolgirl]

5 hours ago, Lazlo said:

I get the impression the show intended us to see Charles's sympathy for the Duke of Windsor as misplaced, even actively manipulated by the Duke and Duchess.

Alex Jennings and Lia Williams would have portrayed that brilliantly. 

Here, no.

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't think Uncle Nazi deserved such an epic shot for his death. You know, the music, the slow-mo etc. He was a Nazi and a traitor, after all.

Indeed. In Vergangenheit the end montage seemed to show they were going out of their way to show Uncle Nazi and Peaches's true colors.

Edited November 19, 2019 by jschoolgirl
punctuation

[Dejana]

On 11/17/2019 at 7:47 PM, phoenics said:

Wait - Princess Anne and Andrew Parker-Bowles?  LOL WTF?

11 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

I know!  I never heard of that.  Surely they didn't make it up for the show?  They've made a lot of other things up, but surely that would be a bridge too far?

Yeah, Anne and Andrew Parker Bowles were a thing in real life:

So messy!

*

The writers were clearly going for some Duke of Windsor/Charles parallels with their love lives but it didn't work for me, with what's known about "dear" Uncle David. 

[pivot]

There are rumors that the Anne/Andrew relationship continued for decades while they were married to others.

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, swanpride said:

And he was working with the Nazis.

Sorry, but this can't be mentioned often enough. If he had stayed in power, the history of the whole continent would have most likely moved to the worse. I shudder to think what would have happened if Germany and the UK had joined in some sort of dual dictatorship.

The King has no political power, he must do what his current Prime Minister "advices" him to do, so I don't think history would have changed a bit if Edward VIII hadn't abdicated.

I am not sure if his realationship with the Nazis was at all so clear as the series present, but I write more about it in the thread about history of monarchy.  

[swanpride]

I know that the power of the king is limited, but back then, being a "royalist" was more of a thing. If he had wanted to, he could have used his influence to hinder the UK to go to war as united as it did.

[BooBear]

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I am not sure if his realationship with the Nazis was at all so clear as the series present, but I write more about it in the thread about history of monarchy.  

As a conspiracy theorist, I sort of smell a rat with the Nazi story. I can't believe more people don't. For years and years the story was that he abdicated to be with a woman but then, just recently, after he is dead and can't defend himself, this Nazi story came out. It is as if there is a "deep state " that is devoted to heaping on to this guy's bad reputation. I am not saying he wasn't a youthful idiot that was likely too impressed with the Nazi's but I think it has been exaggerated for effect or maybe just lied about.  It seems even this episode forgot about it. 

I suspect the queen seeing him probably had a lot more to do with love for her father than her uncle, but if true, it was a classy and brave move.  . 

I do think there are a lot of similarities with Charles and his uncle. I do think Charles is a progressive and a bit of an idiot. What I think, and this goes for both, is that your beliefs change when you are the King. It is easy to be "feeling" when you are #2 with no real power. 

I really have a problem with the actress playing Camilla... she doesn't seem anything like the person I saw photos of and I am having a hard time connecting this person with the real life Camilla. 

[Ohiopirate02]

26 minutes ago, BooBear said:

As a conspiracy theorist, I sort of smell a rat with the Nazi story. I can't believe more people don't. For years and years the story was that he abdicated to be with a woman but then, just recently, after he is dead and can't defend himself, this Nazi story came out. It is as if there is a "deep state " that is devoted to heaping on to this guy's bad reputation. I am not saying he wasn't a youthful idiot that was likely too impressed with the Nazi's but I think it has been exaggerated for effect or maybe just lied about.  It seems even this episode forgot about it. 

I suspect the queen seeing him probably had a lot more to do with love for her father than her uncle, but if true, it was a classy and brave move.  . 

I do think there are a lot of similarities with Charles and his uncle. I do think Charles is a progressive and a bit of an idiot. What I think, and this goes for both, is that your beliefs change when you are the King. It is easy to be "feeling" when you are #2 with no real power. 

I really have a problem with the actress playing Camilla... she doesn't seem anything like the person I saw photos of and I am having a hard time connecting this person with the real life Camilla. 

I don't see any conspiracy with the information about David and his connections with the Nazis coming to light after his death.  The Royal family has German roots, German family members, and many members of the British aristocracy also had ties with the Nazis.  This was common knowledge in the 30s that was quickly swept under the rug when Britain entered the war and it stayed there for decades.  There has been enough evidence floating around since the 30s, but no one was paying attention. 

As to Camilla, I knew there was no way that they could find a young actress who could embody a young Camilla Shand.  She has always had that it factor that cannot be replicated.   If you look at pictures of her from the 60s and 70s, it's hard to imagine that woman having the ability to string along multiple men.  But, the real Camilla did.  I had low expectations going in and I find the actress serviceable.  

[Ellaria]

On 11/18/2019 at 4:10 PM, Lazlo said:

I get the impression the show intended us to see Charles's sympathy for the Duke of Windsor as misplaced, even actively manipulated by the Duke and Duchess.

Whatever his other issues Charles (at least as seen in the show) is someone with a strong if frustrated sense of duty. The Duke just seems completely feckless and self serving. 

Agree. In this episode, at least, I was struck by how naive Charles seems to be and not only in his interactions with the Duke. He completely missed Anne’s implications about Camilla and Andrew.

I really disliked this episode. I’m not sure why we needed to spend more time with the Duke and Duchess. Did we need nearly an entire episode devoted to his end? The purpose of it had much more to do with the Queen and Charles than the Duke himself but I had enough of him in S2. 

The relationship between Charles and Camilla has to be handled carefully because it can make or break the future of this show. I don’t sense any chemistry between Josh O’Connor and Emerald Fennell. Perhaps that will develop. I was surprised that the episode opened with Andrew and Camilla in a scene out of a daytime soap opera. Then we jump to Andrew and Anne. I needed to see more of Charles and Camilla together, especially because of the implied parallels with the Duke and Duchess. There was a lot of discussion about their relationship and not enough screen time. 

A little less time with the Duke and Andrew could have given us proper reference to Adeane's retirement and the election of the new PM. Also, has the Queen Mum said more then two words so far in the series?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ellaria Sand

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree. In this episode, at least, I was struck by how naive Charles seems to be and not only in his interactions with the Duke. He completely missed Anne’s implications about Camilla and Andrew.

I really disliked this episode. I’m not sure why we needed to spend more time with the Duke and Duchess. Did we need nearly an entire episode devoted to his end? The purpose of it had much more to do with the Queen and Charles than the Duke himself but I had enough of him in S2. 

The relationship between Charles and Camilla has to be handled carefully because it can make or break the future of this show. I don’t sense any chemistry between Josh O’Connor and Emerald Fennell. Perhaps that will develop. I was surprised that the episode opened with Andrew and Camilla in a scene out of a daytime soap opera. Then we jump to Andrew and Anne. I needed to see more of Charles and Camilla together, especially because of the implied parallels with the Duke and Duchess. There was a lot of discussion about their relationship and not enough screen time. 

It set Charles up as a victim, and he directly said he feels like he has replaced his uncle's role/path in this family.  So, a victim of his family's interference in his "true love" of Camilla?  If so, ugh, it cleared the Queen of interference as well, letting his uncle and grandmother "take the blame" for something it's extremely doubtful they ever did.  Reports are they disliked each other, so them teaming up is a stretch.

[Razzberry]

The show has suggested there's a big streak of crazy that runs through the Windsors, in case that wasn't apparent already.    Unless he's been kept completely in the dark,  Charles' view of Uncle Nazi is delusional and identifying with him so strongly, disturbing.   

I read somewhere that Charles is livid about the show's depiction, so this could get real  interesting.  Long live the Queen!

As the token sane one, Anne kicks ass. 

[tennisgurl]

As annoying as it can be sometimes to hear Philip and Charles go on about how hard it is to be royalty, hearing it from Uncle Nazi of all people is absolutely ridiculous, especially with him flashing his king cred around. Just a quick reminder...you WERE a king but abdicated when the going got tough. Oh Charles, you naive young dweeb, falling for his bullshit hook line and sinker. I assume the Nazi stuff isnt widely known (at this point) and Charles probably has no idea about any of that. He really played him like a fiddle. 

The only good thing I can really say about the Duke and Duchess is that they really were in love, and stayed together until the end, for all the good and the bad, and thats really all I can say about them thats positive. Screw those assholes. 

Probably my least favorite episode so far, just SO much time spent on the Duke and Duchess, but it did at least have a few good moments. Seeing the start of Charles and Camilla was interesting, and I can certainly see why they connected so quickly. She just thought his silly joke was the funniest thing to happen in the UK since the opening comedy act at Stonehenge, and I can see how happy he would be to find someone who seems to really see all of him and appreciate him.

Anne and Andrew?! I had no idea, thats wild! Anne is awesome and practical as always, and the guy playing Andrew was quite good, especially while he tried to keep up with the many turns his conversation with Anne took! The look on Mountbattens face when he found out that Anne of all people was part of a dramatic sexy love triangle was a hoot. 

Philips never ending loathing of Uncle Nazi is one of my favorite things about him, no one deserves his cold disdain and snarky scorn more than him. Every time he is even mentioned, he looks like he wants to set him on fire with his eyes.

[swanpride]

I think that the actress they found for Camilla was fine. It must have been hard to find someone with her long chin in the first place. And she kind of looks like a young Camilla. (Camilla didn't age particularly well).

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

If you look at pictures of her from the 60s and 70s, it's hard to imagine that woman having the ability to string along multiple men.  But, the real Camilla did.  I had low expectations going in and I find the actress serviceable.  

Wallis Simpson had no beauty to speak of and the incredibly handsome David gave up a crown for her. It's not always about looks. Also, Camilla was apparently great fun and had a wonderful sense of humour, and I'm guessing fun was in desperately short supply among that set.

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I think that the actress they found for Camilla was fine. It must have been hard to find someone with her long chin in the first place. And she kind of looks like a young Camilla.

The chin fits, and I agree that actresses with Camilla's chin would be few and far between. The casting folks have usually tried to find some sort of physical resemblance where there are distinctive physical features at play (Charles' ears), although with the more famous cast members they've been willing to work with what they have (John Lithgow's height, HBC's brown eyes, Olivia Colman's brown eyes, etc.).

[iMonrey]

This one was a bit of a miss for me as well. The problem with recasting is you lose all the connections you had during the first 2 seasons. And going from Alex Jennings as the Duke of Windsor to Derek Jacobi is downright startling. It's like a completely different person, I suspect they went for stunt-casting a big name over finding someone who could reasonably pass for the character and bear some resemblance to Jennings. 

[SeanC]

In the earlier seasons dealing with Elizabeth and Philip’s marriage, and especially the issue of the Duke’s marital fidelity, Morgan was clearly taking a very delicate approach to such a highly controversial and largely still unknown question.  The contrast between that and the show’s entering the extremely-well-documented Charles/Camilla stuff is fairly sharp.

[Umbelina]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The only good thing I can really say about the Duke and Duchess is that they really were in love, and stayed together until the end, for all the good and the bad, and thats really all I can say about them thats positive. Screw those assholes. 

I've read and watched many entirely different versions of their "great love" and why they stayed together.  Without getting into stuff that is probably best saved for the history thread, I'll spoiler tag the raciest parts here: 

Spoiler

She was good at B&D and Eddie was addicted to that.  She was still more interested in one of her ex husbands, but felt stuck and trapped in the marriage with Eddie because of all the hoopla and press, also, she was getting older, and catching interesting men for sex was becoming more problematic for her.  They had a very comfortable lifestyle, and she did like that as well.

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

I think that the actress they found for Camilla was fine. It must have been hard to find someone with her long chin in the first place. And she kind of looks like a young Camilla. (Camilla didn't age particularly well).

Yes, both actresses cast as Camilla and Anne are far more attractive then their real life counterparts, but I didn't have a problem with that.  Kirby and Foy were far more attractive than Elizabeth and Margaret as well, etc.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

On 11/20/2019 at 8:31 AM, tennisgurl said:

Seeing the start of Charles and Camilla was interesting, and I can certainly see why they connected so quickly. She just thought his silly joke was the funniest thing to happen in the UK since the opening comedy act at Stonehenge, and I can see how happy he would be to find someone who seems to really see all of him and appreciate him.

Anne and Andrew?! I had no idea, thats wild! Anne is awesome and practical as always, and the guy playing Andrew was quite good, especially while he tried to keep up with the many turns his conversation with Anne took! 

Although Camilla had sense of humor, it didn't explain to me why Charles fell for her. Their relationship should have developed much more in order to believe that he wanted to propose to her.

And we were left with only her words that the more she was with him, the more she liked him - it wasn't shown, rather on contrary as she still slept with Andrew. 

Actually, Anne and Andrew's relationship was much more exciting.   

[Quilt Fairy]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:03 AM, Yokosmom said:

Much as I like Jacobi, I much preferred Alex Jennings in the role.

Totally agree, this was a casting fail, and I normally love Jacobi.  They brought back Pip Torrens and John Lithgow for single episodes in this season and they should have brought back Alex Jennings here.  I never saw the Duke of Windsor, I just saw Derek Jacobi with Derek Jacobi's voice.  Even to the extent that in the final scene with Elizabeth when he was talking and coughing at the same time he sounded like the stuttering Claudius in I, Claudius. 

I was OK with Geraldine Chaplin as the Duchess. 

[Cheezwiz]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:03 AM, Yokosmom said:

Much as I like Jacobi, I much preferred Alex Jennings in the role.  The DOW totally snowed Charles, with bs about he was pushed out because he was such a rebel and individualist.  He left out the part where he couldn't be bothered to do any of his kingly duties (red boxes, meetings with the government, etc) and would have been a lousy king regardless of whether Mrs. Simpson was on the scene.  But of course, no one in the royal family apparently talked to Charles about much of anything.  Charles was supposedly close to the Queen mother.  I'm surprised that she didn't give him an earful regarding Uncle Nazi. 

I feel the same way about Jacobi - wonderful actor, but Jennings was just spot-on. I wish they had kept some of the secondary actors around for S3: Jennings as Uncle Nazi, and Greg Wise as Mountbatten. They're both at a RL age where they could age up convincingly. I love Charles Dance - he certainly has the right bearing, but Wise looked so much more like Uncle Dickie.

On 11/20/2019 at 5:37 AM, Eyes High said:

Also, Camilla was apparently great fun and had a wonderful sense of humour, and I'm guessing fun was in desperately short supply among that set.

If you look at pictures of Camilla from the late 60's (around the time she was a debutante) she was actually quite cute - you could see that she definitely had some sparkle and charisma about her that probably would have attracted men. But alas, no, she did not age well.

The way they're portraying Anne is hilarious.

[Paloma]

On 11/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I really disliked this episode. I’m not sure why we needed to spend more time with the Duke and Duchess. Did we need nearly an entire episode devoted to his end? The purpose of it had much more to do with the Queen and Charles than the Duke himself but I had enough of him in S2. 

Same here. The writers seem to be trying to rehabilitate the Duke (and to some extent the Duchess) of Windsor, and I am just not having it. 

 

On 11/21/2019 at 8:07 PM, Cheezwiz said:

The way they're portraying Anne is hilarious.

I never got the impression that she had a great sense of humor IRL (at least from the little the public was allowed to see), but so far I have enjoyed her in every scene--for her wit, her intelligence, and her tell-it-like-it is attitude.

[terrymct]

I found the contrast between Elizabeth's last meeting with Churchill and the Duke of Windsor interesting.  Both were important men in her life.  Both were seriously ill at the time of their respective meetings with her.

Uncle David, aka the Duke of Windsor, was all about image.  Never mind that behind that image was a Nazi sympathizer who wanted the Germans to defeat the UK so he could retake the throne with Wallis at his side.   No, forget all that.  Look at the pretty flags and tchotchkes that show you how noble and significant he was, could have been, and wants you to think he still is.   Obviously he had to get up off his death bed, put on a suit, and try to stand.   Appearance is all he really has.  Don't scratch the surface of that appearance, though.

Churchill was all about substance and reality, not image.  He'd never think of having his staff push him into a suit and sit him up to talk to Elizabeth.  He's unwell.  She's visiting him.  Obviously he's going to be in bed.   His room is highly functional, obviously good quality stuff, but nothing gilded or ostentatious about the place.  Churchill was important in general and to Elizabeth because of what he knew and what he did, not because of an accident of his birth.

[JasonCC]

I know it's wrong and there should be little sympathy for those two but I did shed a tear when the Duke of Windsor died--more for her I think. Geraldine Chaplin did a good job. Also I bought the scenes of them scrambling to get the dying man out of his pajamas and preserve some dignity there.

Yet--and this is how the show it good--I also was incredibly frustrated and angry at them on their little late-in-life apology tour to try to portray themselves as just so much more modern, and free-thinking than the other royals. Give me a break!

Edited November 24, 2019 by JasonCC

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

On 11/20/2019 at 6:37 AM, Eyes High said:

Wallis Simpson had no beauty to speak of and the incredibly handsome David gave up a crown for her. It's not always about looks.

Supposedly, what attracted David to Wallis was her personality. She was very witty and abrasive, and that appealed to a man who normally had women swooning all over him. She played hard-to-get and it totally worked.

There's no revisionism in calling them Nazi sympathizers, though. Wallis had at least one affair with a high-ranking Nazi spy, and of course we all have seen the pictures of David reviewing Nazi troops, greeting Hitler, etc. Even the official whitewashed royal family documentary on the Duke of Windsor/King Edward VII ("Edward on Edward," hosted by QE2's son Prince Edward) says he was an unwitting dupe of Nazi spies via Wallis and was very careless with his royal duties, even mentioning that the official papers the government would send him in the "red boxes" were often received back with multiple circular stains: Wallis and Edward were using them as placemats when they drank their tea.

The Edward documentary says he could find no evidence of the Duke of Windsor actively helping the Nazis, but what would you expect a royal family-sanctioned documentary to say?

As for the episode: I loved the callback of QE2 bringing up the snotty "Shirley Temple" nickname the Duke had given her all those decades ago, and his frank admission that he'd underestimated her.

[Roseanna]

On 11/22/2019 at 6:29 PM, terrymct said:

Churchill was all about substance and reality, not image.  He'd never think of having his staff push him into a suit and sit him up to talk to Elizabeth.  He's unwell.  She's visiting him.  Obviously he's going to be in bed.   His room is highly functional, obviously good quality stuff, but nothing gilded or ostentatious about the place.  Churchill was important in general and to Elizabeth because of what he knew and what he did, not because of an accident of his birth.

Let's not forget thar Churchill refused to give up his post as Prime Minister although he was not only 80 but seriously ill which he kept secret from the Queen against the constitution. Churchill cling to power and made his successor, Anthony Eden, to wait for his turn far too long which is perhaps why he was so keen to do something historical and failed miserably in Suez.  

Also, when the great artist painted Churchill truthfully the old weak man he was not the imaginary hero he saw himself and wanted others see him, he couldn't stand it and destroyd the painting.  

[pasdetrois]

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Although Camilla had sense of humor, it didn't explain to me why Charles fell for her.

I've always felt that Camilla played Charles like a cheap fiddle. In the end, she got what she wanted. Same with Wallis. And BTW the recently departed Scotty Bauer, a Hollywood procurer and prostitute, insists that he serviced Wallis and David.

This season has a titillation checklist meant to entice viewers. Drunken Margaret, Camilla (in the bath!), David, Mountbatten's treachery, randy Anne, even the Welsh tragedy. I'd prefer less sensationalism and more reality, which is interesting on its own. It's as if Elizabeth is playing second string in her own story.

[terrymct]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I've always felt that Camilla played Charles like a cheap fiddle. In the end, she got what she wanted. Same with Wallis. 

Even in this soft soap version of history, Camilla is clearly playing Charles and Parker-Bowles.  Are we supposed to think that this was fairly standard stuff for this social circle, given Anne's attitudes, and that Charles was a bit more sensitive and emo than his contemporaries?  Another option is that even in the era of free love, Camilla was manipulative and she and Parker-Bowles might not have had the healthiest relationship even without family meddling.

[benteen]

Very good episode.  Was excited to see Derek Jacobi in the role as Edward (although I agree Alex Jennings was better) and he was good, enjoyed his last scene with Olivia Colman a great deal.

There playing around with the timeline is starting to show and is not appreciated.  Edward didn't die until 1974.

Edited November 25, 2019 by benteen

[Ohiopirate02]

40 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Even in this soft soap version of history, Camilla is clearly playing Charles and Parker-Bowles.  Are we supposed to think that this was fairly standard stuff for this social circle, given Anne's attitudes and that Charles was a bit more sensitive and emo than his contemporaries?  Another option is that even in the era of free love, Camilla was manipulative and she and Parker-Bowles might not have had the healthiest relationship even without family meddling.

I believe that we are supposed to think that the aristocracy (or whatever they are called in modern Britain) was constantly bedhopping.  These are people who marry for duty and seek their pleasure elsewhere. They just had to be discreet and make sure that the "heir" of a particular family was actually the heir.  The rich have their own rules.  Scandals still did happen, but those were usually when the couple in question was too obvious or went too far outside the norm.  Really, the scandal of Edward and Wallis in the 30s was that he wanted to marry her not the relationship itself.  No one would have  batted an eye if he had married a more appropriate girl, made her queen, and sired heirs off of her while Edward was banging Wallis in another palace.  

[pasdetrois]

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They just had to be discreet and make sure that the "heir" of a particular family was actually the heir.

She wasn't an heir, but there is an unauthorized biography of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother that asserts that she is the daughter of her mother and a staff member (footman? groom?). If I recall correctly, there were fertility difficulties and a suitable candidate was brought round to do the deed.

I read a biography of a member of the English aristocracy in the 1920s - he was an artist and eccentric - and it portrayed that society as bouncing in and out of beds like rubber balls.

Loved seeing Jacobi and I agree that his struggles to speak as he neared death reminded me of Claudius. "The crown always finds its way to the right head."

I don't think Elizabeth called on David out of fondness. Her staff instructed her to go for political reasons. "Optics"

[kwnyc]

Real life pictures of Camilla Shand around this time show her to be a Swingin' 60s kind of gal. Though she still had some o' those  British jacked teeth.

[benteen]

Wasn't it said that Camilla looked like Charles's nanny?

[WatchrTina]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:03 AM, Yokosmom said:

Charles was supposedly close to the Queen mother.  I'm surprised that she didn't give him an earful regarding Uncle Nazi. 

Yeah, this episode seems to postulate that Charles didn't know about Edwards's Nazi sympathies.  I'm struggling with that one. Certainly the Queen and the Queen Mother would not have discussed that topic with Charles while he was a child and even in this episode he's only at University.  The Queen may well still think of him as a child at this point.  Also when a family secret like that has lain dormant that long it would take something significant for the issue to rise into view.  Perhaps that's what the business with the letters was all about.  Perhaps we're supposed to believe that when the Queen realized how close Charles had become to his Uncle David, she would have told him the truth.  Then again, at that point he might choose to believe that she was exaggerating out of jealousy because Charles had positive feelings about his uncle. 

On 11/24/2019 at 10:30 AM, JasonCC said:

I know it's wrong and there should be little sympathy for those two but I did shed a tear when the Duke of Windsor died--more for her I think. Geraldine Chaplin did a good job.

Yes she did.  On the other hand I think it's possible that the real Duchess of Windsor lived her life with the Duke positively horrified at the the outcome of her flirtation with a king.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the feelings were MUCH stronger on his side than on hers and then, when he declared his intention of giving up the throne to marry her, she was left with no choice but to go along.  If she'd ditched him once it was clear she could NOT be queen she'd have been reviled world-wide (even more so than she was as the cause of the abdication.)  So while I believed the grief I saw portrayed on the screen at his passing, I continue to believe that there were mixed feelings in the grief.

On 11/19/2019 at 11:10 PM, Razzberry said:

I read somewhere that Charles is livid about the show's depiction, so this could get real  interesting.

Who could blame him?  In fact, I'm having a hard time with this season because I am constantly imagining how the real Royal Family (and Parker-Bowles) must feel about the way they have been portrayed, including their sexual dalliances.  Oh what I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall when Princess Anne saw this episode.  I'll bet she had a few choice things to say.

Edited November 26, 2019 by WatchrTina

[buttersister]

Big fan of Derek Jacobi here. With an active dislike of how David/Edward was portrayed. Yes, the uncle who put his heart before his crown, for his "one true love" was in service to Charles' doomed (for the moment) affair with Camilla. Phooey. You don't overlook Nazi sympathizing. You want to nod to "the crown finds the right head" instead of "I led to my brother's early demise and ruined my niece's life?" Thanks, I got it now, the entire point of it all is ER was stuck with a long, long life of not-the-one-she-wanted.

[andromeda331]

Its really hard to imagine Charles not knowing how bad his great-uncle was just as it was hard to believe Elizabeth didn't know how bad her uncle was.  Its hard to imagine the Queen Mother with her clear hated for Edward VIII never said anything? She never once went off on rants about how horrible he was? Its really hard to believe. She has such hate for him its really hard to believe she never told Elizabeth all the reasons why he was so bad. She just doesn't seem like the type to hold that in. Its hard to believe Tommy never said anything. He knew how bad Edward VIII was and also how he operated. There's no way he wouldn't have prepared Elizabeth for dealing with her uncle. There's no way grow up Charles wouldn't have heard all about how terrible he was from his mother, grandmother and his father. Philip had such a hate for him its hard to believe he held back.

[Magnumfangirl]

When I finished this one I said out loud "That was stupid."  Attempting to parallel Charles with the Duke of Nazi is just dumb.  In the early 70s, when he would have been writing letters to David, Charles had no way of knowing what was going to happen with Camilla.  He wasn't really forbidden to marry her anyway, so the metaphor they're going for here doesn't work.  I would have rather seen more of Charles and Camilla together than wasting time on Uncle Nazi and Wallis and the scene with Lord Mountbatten should have been longer.  He of all people would have asked some questions about Camilla's family and background.

Quote

There are rumors that the Anne/Andrew relationship continued for decades while they were married to others.

I knew Anne dated Andrew for a while, but I hope those rumors aren't true.  A love quadrangle where two of the participants are brother and sister is gross.  It's like even when the royals allow a little bit of branching out, they're still slightly incestuous.

At least the Queen's hat game improved.  I loved the one she wore at the speech in Paris.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Magnumfangirl

[terrymct]

19 hours ago, kwnyc said:

Real life pictures of Camilla Shand around this time show her to be a Swingin' 60s kind of gal.

What did young women like Camilla from elite and wealthy families do with their time?   I guess the goal for them was to marry well, so maybe dating was the point of things for them.

[chitowngirl]

20 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Oh what I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall when Princess Anne saw this episode.  I'll bet she had a few choice things to say.

She might have laughed and said, ”oh, if they only knew...l”

[Blakeston]

This was a strange one. They'd already laid out how awful David was in season two, up to the point of showing a photo of him with Hitler, and now they want us to see him as a sympathetic free-thinker?

Uncle Nazi was anything but a free-thinker. For one thing, he was bamboozled by the Nazis into thinking they posed no harm to the UK.

And he was attracted to Wallis because a) they had a weird mother/son dynamic, and b) when she wasn't acting like his mother, she was acting like a dominatrix. To the point that she would order him to act like a dog, and he would get on all fours and bark!

Letting someone make your decisions like that is the exact opposite of being a free thinker.

This all makes me think that the writers come up with a general theme for an episode, and make it fit by twisting history however the hell they feel like it, regardless of whether it's believable, or consistent with other episodes.

"Charles wants to be independent with the woman of his choice. And Uncle David wanted to be with the woman of his choice, and he died around this time. So let's present Uncle David as a freethinker who Charles wanted to emulate, and make them out to be great friends!"

Or "Elizabeth is jealous of Margaret, and Margaret is charming in a way Elizabeth isn't, and Margaret met with LBJ - so let's pretend that Margaret charmed LBJ into giving the UK a billion pounds!"

This show has always taken a certain amount of dramatic license, but this season it really bothered me.