S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[Haleth]

Jeff:

Quote

I don’t think you can address Elizabeth or Missy’s actions without first remembering that every player is making their decisions based on very limited information and through their own filters. No individual player ever knows all of the information, and that plays directly into this situation.

Elizabeth:

Quote

After watching the episode, my eyes were opened to a completely different truth, and I received an abundance of information that I was entirely unaware of while playing the game.

Missy:

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Due to the nature of Survivor I was viewing the game through a small lens and with a limited scope.  I did not have all the information on the subject and I made a game move that was unjust.

While I imagine that this is partly true, I find it curious that Elizabeth and Missy picked up on Jeff's excuse of ignorance and used that to justify their actions.  On the other hand Aaron claims no such excuse and apologizes without any "buts."

[JudyObscure]

This thread contains about twenty posts I would like to print out and frame. @ProfCrash wrote one in particular about how hard it had been to talk a co-worker out of touching her pregnant stomach, that I was astounded over -- but I couldn't even "like" it because her last line, agreeing with most of you, was that production should have stepped in.

I'm so glad TPTB kept their distance and apparently gave Dan the sort of generic warning that allowed him to continue to think of himself  as "the kindest, gentlest person you'll ever meet."

Because now so many Dan's in the world have seen an example of why he is badly mistaken about that.  They've learned that it is always wrong to touch women  when they are in a position where they might fear repercussions if they complain. And if the Dan's are at home pouting and saying, "Damn political correctness. I guess I just can't even touch women at all."  YES!  Now they get it!

The Dan's of the world have learned that it's still sexual harassment even if they didn't squeeze a boob and the women like Elizabeth have seen how ugly and wrong it is to ever lie about something like this and the rest have seen that  gaslighting a friend will not be chuckled at later.

I remember when this show started and there were lots of comparisons to, "Lord of the Flies," where when the tribe spoke someone was killed rather than voted out.  Probst has said  the players have to obey the laws of America wherever they are, but that's about it. 

It's not an office where people have a right to feel comfortable.  It's Survivor and it's supposed to be an example of raw society.  So long as someone doesn't hit someone else or actually rub his naked self against a woman then they probably wont step in. 

I like that.  I like that we have a reason for this conversation and that Dan provided us with such a perfect example of a "I'm just affectionate" abuser at work. 

Dan and the tribe are at fault, not the producers.  The tribe should have voted him out the first time he ignored Kellee's warning, about three days in.  The tribe let Kellee down as they pursued their own interests and, although I'm sorry for Kellee, I'm glad we got to see what happens when we do that.

[DEL901]

5 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I’ve been wondering if this is the case.  I was surprised at his tone when Kellee took her torch up to Jeff.  To my knowledge, she wasn’t even leading the charge to vote Dan off at first.    It seemed like he had some anger at her, although maybe it’s just because she dared vote for him.  
 

But the fact that he still seemed like there wasn’t a problem after TC, and didn’t seem to understand why Jeff wouldn’t let it go, says a lot.  I’m very curious just what exactly this talk was production had with everyone.  Whatever it was Dan clearly didn’t feel like there was a problem, and your right that the defense he got from some of the castaways probably just made him feel justified in feeling like he wasn’t in the wrong.  

I wonder if Dan's anger at Kellee stems partially from the producer "talk"... if he knew that Kellee was the one who had the problem with him and talked to production... 

[jumper sage]

35 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Dan and the tribe are at fault, not the producers.  The tribe should have voted him out the first time he ignored Kellee's warning, about three days in.  The tribe let Kellee down as they pursued their own interests and, although I'm sorry for Kellee, I'm glad we got to see what happens when we do that.

Don't they have "Nos" in their contract as contestants?  I think he should have been pulled from the game IF the language of the contracts dictate.  You can't have a fist fight anymore but camera confirmation of sexual assault is OK?

I wish I could rewatch this episode knowing now what I know.  Anyway you slice it, Dan is a no-apologetic asshole.  I don't buy that he had no idea of his actions.

The other 2 girls who also complained just showed us what the lure of $1 million dollars will do.

Edited November 15, 2019 by jumper sage

[AZChristian]

I was molested as a child by the man my female birth vessel brought into our home when I was 4.  She caught him the first time, and continued to tell him "don't do that any more" for the next 12 years, every time she found out that he was ignoring the last "don't do that any more."  This was life for me in what should have been a safe place.

I have ZERO tolerance for men touching women inappropriately, and even LESS than that for their continuing to do so after being told to stop.

My heart was breaking for Kellie.  She went through an extensive interview process to be selected to go to a deserted place, with the potential win a VERY large amount of money.  Who would think that she would have to be concerned about being molested?  She told Dan on DAY ONE that she did not want him to touch her as he had already done. 

Even with other "targets" for his molestation, Dan didn't CARE that Kellie didn't want to be touched.  He is apparently accustomed to the power of being a talent manager and producer in an industry where this type of behavior is just recently being acknowledged as inappropriate.  So he kept on doing what he wanted to do.  There is NO WAY he didn't know it was inappropriate.

Not only should Dan be removed from the show, Kellie should file sexual assault charges against him.  Goodness knows she has millions of witnesses (us) to support her allegations.  

[JudyObscure]

27 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

You can't have a fist fight anymore but camera confirmation of sexual assault is OK?

The United States Department of Justice, defines sexual assault as “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient." Sexual assault  includes  rape, fondling, and attempted rape."

The key word is "sexual" which usually means certain parts of the body only.  Whether Dan was getting off on toes and hair doesn't really count in a court of law as those areas are not part of the legal idea of  "sexual touch."  

If Survivor is following U. S. law then a fist fight would be against the law "assault" but not feeling someone's hair or toes.  Dan's arm over the hip while sleeping is closer to "sexual" but then Survivor has always permitted spooning while sleeping in the shelters.

I think Dan's actions have to come under "unwanted touch" rather than sexual assault. In a workplace or power position it would be sexual harassment and I hope he gets fired for it.  His actions are wrong and  disgusting but if you can't picture going to the police station over it then I doubt it's against the law.  That's why I think the show let it stand.

As much as we would all like to use our worst accusations against Dan right now we should be careful not to lessen the power of words like "rape" and "sexual assault," for when the full crime happens.

[jumper sage]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

As much as we would all like to use our worst accusations against Dan right now we should be careful not to lessen the power of words like "rape" and "sexual assault," for when the full crime happens.

While I agree with you I do think that unwanted touching of any kind should be against game rules.  Many times unwanted touching is just grooming for the big punch.  I know, it happened to me.

[AZChristian]

20 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

...we should be careful not to lessen the power of words like "rape" and "sexual assault," for when the full crime happens.

@JudyObscure - I am not arguing with you, as I have always appreciated your point of view,

However . . . from Wikipedia:

"Generally, sexual assault is defined as unwanted sexual contact. The National Center for Victims of Crime states:

"Sexual assault takes many forms including attacks such as rape or attempted rape, as well as any unwanted sexual contact or threats. Usually a sexual assault occurs when someone touches any part of another person's body in a sexual way, even through clothes, without that person's consent."

If he wasn't doing the same thing to the guys, or to the older women, it sure seems to me he was targeting the younger women, and that behavior would qualify as sexual in nature.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

My heart was breaking for Kellie.  She went through an extensive interview process to be selected to go to a deserted place, with the potential win a VERY large amount of money.  Who would think that she would have to be concerned about being molested?

This is how I feel too.  It's pathetic that this is a concern for people who go on this show, and it makes the show look 20x worse than it used to.  This "Ohhh, we can't do anything, it's a human experiment"?  Bullshit.  That's all for ratings.  100% exploiting people for ratings.  That's why it disgusts so many people.

Is Survivor hurting for ratings?  It's in its 39 season.  No shows last this long.  Is Jeff and co. really that desperate?  If they can't come up with ratings to stay afloat without exploiting people this way, then cut the cord.  Not worth it.

5 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

@JudyObscure - I am not arguing with you, as I have always appreciated your point of view,

However . . . from Wikipedia:

"Generally, sexual assault is defined as unwanted sexual contact. The National Center for Victims of Crime states:

"Sexual assault takes many forms including attacks such as rape or attempted rape, as well as any unwanted sexual contact or threats. Usually a sexual assault occurs when someone touches any part of another person's body in a sexual way, even through clothes, without that person's consent."

Even the movie "Billy Madison", (1995) about a grown man going to school with children, understands that.

Child:  I dare you to touch her boob.
Billy:  That's assault, brotha.

[Jobiska]

13 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

Last week--was it last week?--they showed Feely Dan kind of grinding on a woman in the middle of the night.  Not only did he put his arm around her, he kind of ground his crotch into their rear end.  THAT was for sure sexual.  I watched that, wondering in the anonymity of the night vision footage, who the new showmance was.  Turned out it was Dan, and I think Elizabeth.  Whoever it was (still not sure) made an amusing little story about it around the fire the next morning--with Dan notably absent--whereupon there commenced a "humorous" bit of all the girls miming how Dan grabs and touches on them, even demonstrating some of his finer moves on they guys hanging out with them.  Some of that miming included grabbing boobs or rubbing on the person.  Everyone involved in that scene at least knows that Dan is a handsy guy, even though it was played for humor.  

Thank you!  I was thinking I'd hallucinated that (yes, I think it was last week) and just had to confirm with my son that we saw it, and then I came across your post.  And yes, they played it for humor, but my perspective from how I act about this kind of thing is that the humor came from the discomfort of them all, even Elizabeth.    I will sometimes laugh as I tell uncomfortable things, maybe to bond with the others, maybe we're all saying "what ya gonna do," maybe a matter of "laugh so you don't cry."  So last week I thought Elizabeth was bothered.  And I still think she was.  

Janet mentioned the girls either lying to themselves or lying to her or Dan.  I think there is at least an element of Elizabeth lying to herself.  It almost goes along with the Olympian mindset--"this is pain, but I have to overcome it to win, so I will just ignore it and USE it!"  

Note this is not an excuse for her behavior--just that I don't believe Elizabeth saying she wasn't at all bothered.

[AZChristian]

Hypothetical question.

Background:  Jeff Probst has a 15-year-old stepdaughter (true).  Let's say that we are 8-10 years in the future and she (different last name) manages to get onto Survivor on her own merits, and it is not known that she is Jeff's "daughter."  (Yes, I know there are rules against this level of nepotism, but this part is hypothetical.)  This same situation (Dan/Kellie) comes up, with the stepdaughter in the "Kellie" role.

Is Dan still on the show after the first day's concerns about his touching?

Kellie is someone's daughter.  She deserves the same protection, and Dan should face the same consequences.

[laurakaye]

21 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also: "Island of the Idols" was a big fat nothing burger this week. Jamal made up some fake advantage and gave it to Dean and they never even told us what it was supposed to be!!! WTF? 

Stupid.  Stupid and insulting.  I feel insulted as a viewer having watched that entire thing go down.  Here's a note on a tree branch!  It says, "You Found Me, I'm Yours!"  But don't touch it, even though you know you're in danger of being voted out!  Run away from it!  Don't you know, it could actually be a DISadvantage because that happens all the time in Survivor!  

And since I'm furious at everything about this show right now, add to the list that Rob and Sandra actually went along with this stupid, stupid twist.  They HAD to have known that a made-up, pencil-written note was NEVER going to fly, because we've seen that on Survivor how many times?  Zero?

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well that's kind of my point: the whole "Island of the Idols" twist has turned out to be a bust. 

Survivor needs to permanently remove any idea that has the word "Island" in it.  

15 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I'm understanding less and less the point of IOTI.  It totally screwed Jamal over last night, and it seems like everyone who goes and comes back is accused of having an idol or advantage.  

There is no point.  None at all.  Except to bring back the King and Queen of Survivor to teach "lessons" that make no sense and then send each person back to the tribe with a giant target on their backs.

12 hours ago, North of Eden said:

We need to leave all this real world stuff out of the show go back to the SURVIVOR that the late Rudy made famous.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++10000000000000000.

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

We could go back to "old Survivor" if the producers would have enough integrity to kick out people who are acting physically towards other castmates and making them uncomfortable.  They kicked out Brandon Hatch -- well the actions by Dan or Richard Hatch or whatever happened to Ghandia (I never watched that season) should be looked at as just as serious.

Don't watch it.  I have been a fan of this show since season one and this is the ONLY season I will never re-watch.

I want my old Survivor back for the duration of this show's run or I may do the unthinkable, which is to bail on it.  This show has been a constant in my life for 20 years and that makes me sad.

Edited November 15, 2019 by laurakaye

[sadiegirl1999]

Does anyone know if Jeff has addressed this besides that ridiculous EW interview? 
 

and Missy and Elizabeth’s apologies are non-apologies in my book. Those are “sorry we got caught “ apologies 

[blackwing]

15 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I'm understanding less and less the point of IOTI.  It totally screwed Jamal over last night, and it seems like everyone who goes and comes back is accused of having an idol or advantage.  

I agree.  The "lessons" are just an excuse to get Rob and Sandra on the screen.  Survivor has been on many seasons now, and I would have to believe every contestant now knows that when you get selected to go by yourself to a remote place to spend the day or night, chances are that you are coming back with an Idol.  Either there is an Idol hidden out there, or you get a clue to an idol hidden at your camp or in a challenge, or whatever.  You have an Idol.

Even Dean said something like "Jamal's been to the Island so he probably has an idol".  Everyone already assumes you have one.  So no matter what lie you try to spin, it seems nobody believes that you don't have one.

It's just such a bust.  I'm waiting for the moment during Final Tribal when Rob and Sandra emerge from their spy booth and everyone is going to have to pretend like they didn't know they were there all along.

I also want to know what would have happened if Jamal had opened the note right there and then refused to go.  Even though it said not to.  I would have opened it and justified it by saying "Survivor is about taking chances and evaluating risk, and I'm not blindly stumbling into something without knowing what it is".  Would there have been a penalty?  Or would he have been rewarded for "passing the test"?  

[laurakaye]

26 minutes ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

Does anyone know if Jeff has addressed this besides that ridiculous EW interview? 
 

and Missy and Elizabeth’s apologies are non-apologies in my book. Those are “sorry we got caught “ apologies 

The fact that they were issued within minutes of each other tells me that the CBS PR machine was heavily involved.

[eskimo]

12 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

So let's pretend the accusations against Dan weren't true, and Kellee was lying.  So Elizabeth would have still done something despicable by using false information and a serious issue to further her game.  Of course, Kellee wasn't lying and Dan's a creep, so it makes it even worse. 

This is what I've been thinking.  BEST case scenario, Elizabeth would have been leveling false accusations of sexual harassment against an innocent person on national TV, if Kellee had been lying.  So please spare me the 'I had limited information' bullshit, because there is no excuse for false accusations either.  It ruins lives of the people being lied about (who wind up being the actual victims), because it is such a serious issue that it can't just be dismissed when any accusation is made.  Even if cleared they are never looked at the same again.  It also makes it that much harder for actual victims to get justice when there are cases of women lying about this kind of thing.  She outright lied about not feeling safe and being glad Janet was there to protect them.  Then fucked Janet over spectacularly.  She didn't need game info whatsoever to know that was morally wrong.  And Missy advised her to do this!  Idiots.  Missy was a favorite.  Was.  

But Dan really was a creep, so Elizabeth's BS story isn't focused on the harm false allegations can do, but at some point that also needs to be discussed, I think.  

One more thing, production needs to put it into contracts that this kind of thing cannot be used for game play purposes.  This is a serious issue.  And Kellee shouldn't have been put in the position of having to make that decision.  Victims already question themselves too much and the decision to pull Dan should NOT have been placed on her shoulders.  They had video proof of the incidents, proof of her talking to him about it, proof he ignored her requests to stop, and proof he did touch other women.  Even if the other women were OK with it, one was not, and that should have been enough.  TPTB are covering their asses by making it look like they are helping the cause by bringing it to light, when what they actually did was nothing of any significance. 

[Rachel RSL]

9 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I'm still uncomfortable with people talking like Kellee was raped. 

Nobody has ever said that Kellee was raped and nobody has been talking "like Kellee was raped".  People are talking about her being sexually harassed and sexually assaulted, which she was.  Multiple times.  On camera.  It's not on us to sugarcoat the terms.  It's on Dan to not do it in the first place.

1 hour ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

and Missy and Elizabeth’s apologies are non-apologies in my book. Those are “sorry we got caught “ apologies 

Absolutely 100% agree.  Maybe don't issue your public apologies within minutes of each other if you want people to believe they're actually genuine, not word salad from a PR machine.

[cheewhiz]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:28 AM, laurakaye said:

I cannot believe I am now rage-watching my all-time favorite show.

I hear ya sis....I am so disappointed in everyone but Janet.

[Lamima]

15 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I saw those “apologies”...and I don’t believe that they are sorry because they truly believe they did something wrong, they’re sorry because they’re getting lambasted (as they should) and they want to feel better about themselves.  
 

I saw someone remark that Kellee’s body language appeared as if she “liked” what Dan did.  Do you know how problematic this concept is? It honestly makes me sick that there are people who think that way.  By that argument, rape victims who get aroused during the act are not actually victims because look, they “liked it”.

Fuck that. 

I don't recall reading ANYONE say that KELLEE's body language seemed to say she LIKED it. I recall someone said that maybe on of those other 2 girls liked Dan's touchiness....not sure if they said Missy with the toe touching or Elizabeth with the sleeping with his arm on her hip (I want to say they said Elizabeth and she did say in her THs that she didn't feel bothered by Dan's touching). I said that Kellee, at the merge feast, didn't pull away or smack his hand when Dan tucked her hair behind her ear. She seemed interested in what he was saying (I am sure all of them wanted to touch base with their old tribemates and I assume Kellee wanted to see where Dan's thoughts were). Never did I say she enjoyed his touching. SHe clearly did not. Missy was also clear that she did not. Janet and Elizabeth were clear that they didn't see any ill intent with Dan's touching. Jeez some of you guys are so black and white about this and there IS a gray area, you know.

As I mentioned before, I go to Disney a lot and there are certain other cultures that are more touchy and have less concept of personal space than us Americans. I get leaned on and my butt gets brushed. And, shoot, sometimes (due to 100 degree FL heat) those folks don't smell all that great. That is an insult to my senses. But I realize they aren't meaning any harm. The harm with Dan is that he was ASKED, by Kellee, to stop touching and he didn't. So, yes, that is icky. But to call him a predator.....and call him out in TC for all the world to see. That's no small thing. If he was really being a predator then the show should have BOOTED him (they are there taping every second, they'd know). But they didn't boot him. The whole puzzle is not fitting together and I blame the show the most. I feel kind of played by the show. And they did it for ratings. Gross. 

ANd I say all this as a victim of child molestation. So I get predatory behavior. My experience was that it was done in stealth and I was told not to tell anyone. It wasn't done on camera in broad daylight with a dozen other people standing there. And I'd say being taken into a dark basement to play 'ride the horsey' at age 4 by a 16 year old neighbor boy....that is most def predatory perverted sex abuse and all the other descriptivas we seem to toss around so easily, so lightly, for such things as touching hair or toes. It's not so black and white. We don't want any unwanted touching but, yes, some things ARE worse than others. 

I won't say anymore on this because it is so upsetting. I am so disappointed in the show. Don't think I can watch. I really hope they, the show, were not exploiting such a topic for ratings but I am kind of getting that feeling. 

[fishcakes]

I'm late to the conversation so everyone has said pretty much everything I would say, but the remarkable thing to me is that almost all of us here are on the same page. There are a couple of people who are, I hope, just playing Devil's Advocate, but other than that there is a kind of uniform condemnation of what happened that restores my faith a little.

I think the claim that Dan wasn't being sexual because he was just touching toes or shoulders or whatever is misplaced. For one thing, we heard Elizabeth say that he was grabbing boobs at night and we also saw him grinding up against (I think) Missy. But even if it were just an arguably benign type of touching, it wouldn't matter because he was told to stop and the fact that he's not getting any sexual gratification out of it is beside the point. Sexual battery is not about sex; it's about power. When Kellee, for example, tells him to stop touching her and he continues to touch her, he's sending the message to her that he can do whatever he wants and she can't stop him. He's essentially saying, "I'm just putting my hands in your hair now, but I can put any part of my body in any part of yours at any time and you can't do shit about it." It's not just his hand on her face; it's an implicit threat and it's a sickening, frightening feeling to be on the receiving end of that.

Janet -- my god. What a decent, good woman she is. There were a lot of shots of her looking so demolished by the whole situation, even before she got thrown under the bus by Missy and Elizabeth, that it leads me to believe that when she said she wanted to make those younger women feel safe, it's because she wanted to do for them what no one did for her at some point in her life. Just because a woman doesn't tell you her story  doesn't mean she doesn't have one. #MeToo showed us that more women have these stories than don't.  I feel like the men in this thread have been so great, so I'm not speaking to any of you in particular, but to men in general, when women are just generally talking about this topic, assume that they're speaking from a place of experience and defer to that.

As for actual game matters, I'm a little puzzled that Missy and Elizabeth continued to act as if Janet was lying to them about Dan being the target of the first vote in order to make Missy feel secure. There were no votes for Missy, only Dan and Kellee. While it's true that Missy had been a target, the way the actual votes shook out, they couldn't have known whether it was Kellee/Janet who were lying or Lauren. So the fact that they continued to ostracize Janet is odd from a game perspective (in addition to just being shitty from a human perspective).

Also strange was Missy and Aaron going out at dawn to look for an idol and one of them saying something like, "he said it was in a crevice." I don't particularly want to watch the episode again to see if I'm getting that right, but if I am than who is the "he" they're talking about? It's obviously not Jamal, Tommy, or Dean, and I'm not a tin-foil hatter, so I'd like to know what that was all about.

Edited November 15, 2019 by fishcakes

[laurakaye]

39 minutes ago, Lamima said:

I won't say anymore on this because it is so upsetting. I am so disappointed in the show. Don't think I can watch. I really hope they, the show, were not exploiting such a topic for ratings but I am kind of getting that feeling. 

As a longtime fan, this is what I struggle with the most.  If production had stopped Dan at the first sign of trouble and escorted him directly off the island, we'd be watching a completely different show.  It shouldn't have been allowed to go on for so long, and Kellee should never have been the one to make the call as to Dan staying or leaving.  I can't believe that Kellee crying during her confessional was the very first time production realized what was going on under their 24/7 watch.  Shame on them.  They failed her.

As for ratings, I wonder if they will go up because of the sudden "buzz" or down because this has touched a very raw nerve with so many people.  I don't mean to diminish what happened for the sake of ratings, but I have a feeling that Probst & Co. are patting themselves on the back, thinking they handled this all very well, with great gravitas and sensitivity.  If Dan kept wanting Probst to drop the subject at TC isn't the biggest red flag ever, then I get the sick sense that Probst was enjoying playing serious talk-show host while the victim of Dan's advances sat silently a few feet away.  And that's disgusting.

Edited November 15, 2019 by laurakaye

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, himela said:

It doesn't make sense that producers gave Dan a warning but three days later he is surprised that this story is about him. Something is not right.

Frankly, I suspect that’s why we got the “black screen texts”.  Dan continually kept trying to play it off like every mention of inappropriate behavior was The First HE Had Heard About It EVAHHH!!!, and Production was making it clear this was not the case.  

6 hours ago, DEL901 said:

I wonder if Dan's anger at Kellee stems partially from the producer "talk"... if he knew that Kellee was the one who had the problem with him and talked to production... 

Well... what came through the edit appeared to suggest Kellee garnered the lion’s share of Dan’s -uh- “affections” (ugh), so it wouldn’t be surprising if Dan considered Kellee the most likely source of complaints.

[JudyObscure]

16 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

It shouldn't have been allowed to go on for so long, and Kellee should never have been the one to make the call as to Dan staying or leaving.  I can't believe that Kellee crying during her confessional was the very first time production realized what was going on under their 24/7 watch.  Shame on them.  They failed her.

The more I think about this the more I see that scene where we hear the producer ask Kellee if she wants Dan voted off as them protecting themselves from any sort of legal action by Kellee, because they can say, "Well we asked her if she wanted that and she said no.." 

As you say, Kellee shouldn't have been put in that spot.  If Dan had suddenly been told to leave because Kellee was uncomfortable, all the others might have reacted with loyalty to Dan and voted her right off. 

You're right.  They could watch him on tape and make their own decision about whether his actions were eviction worthy or not.  It should never be up to a fellow cast member for all sorts of reasons.

[Peper81]

This whole episode(s) really saddened and angered me for all the reasons already outlined by everyone else on here.  I was also so mad/angry/sad watching Kellee sit over in the jury box not able to speak her truth while everyone else talked about whether what happened did or did not happen and whether it rose to an offensive level or not.  She was the victim and here she is silenced.  I just felt so sick about it.  I know it was just the way it played out as far as her getting voted out and the game always having that rule that jury doesn't speak until the end but it seemed like the shit cherry on top of the shit pie.  

[himela]

14 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Frankly, I suspect that’s why we got the “black screen texts”.  Dan continually kept trying to play it off like every mention of inappropriate behavior was The First HE Had Heard About It EVAHHH!!!, and Production was making it clear this was not the case. 

The black screen texts prove nothing. I want  to see the actual talk without montage. What did they say to Dan and how did he react etc. Also I want to know why Aaron said he was not aware of any issue when the day before the production claims they talked to each individual separately. Something is off here, something doesn't sit right with me. Could it be that the timing was different? Dan being mad at Kellee for voting for him was out of place if he had received the warning the previous day. I mean, we have watched 39 seasons of Survivor and 21 of Big Brother, we know what the edit can do. We just accept the story as it was presented to us and I think this is wrong. Also it doesn't make sense that people were mad at Janet and she knew it so she went searching for the idol. If these things don't clear up, I call BS to the story as it was presented.

[Eolivet]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

If Dan had suddenly been told to leave because Kellee was uncomfortable, all the others might have reacted with loyalty to Dan and voted her right off. 

I disagree. I think if Dan had been told to leave, people might've been shocked, but I seriously doubt you would've had anyone speak up in his defense. He clearly isn't beloved by anyone, he's just a number in a numbers' game. Production needed to make that decision themselves. Putting that onus on the contestants is one more form of victim-blaming.

Hey, is anyone else starting to think Lynne Spillman (recently fired Survivor casting director) wasn't so bad after all? I'd take a season of showmances over this.

[zscore]

53 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

Also strange was Missy and Aaron going out at dawn to look for an idol and one of them saying something like, "he said it was in a crevice." I don't particularly want to watch the episode again to see if I'm getting that right, but if I am than who is the "he" they're talking about? It's obviously not Jamal, Tommy, or Dean, and I'm not a tin-foil hatter, so I'd like to know what that was all about.

"He" is probably Jamal, who had found an idol on the same beach, and everyone knew he had one.

[JudyObscure]

13 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I disagree. I think if Dan had been told to leave, people might've been shocked, but I seriously doubt you would've had anyone speak up in his defense. He clearly isn't beloved by anyone, he's just a number in a numbers' game. Production needed to make that decision themselves. Putting that onus on the contestants is one more form of victim-blaming.

Yes, that's what I just said.  We shouldn't put the onus on the contestants.  One reason they shouldn't do that is because victim blaming exists and that's exactly what some of the cast might have done to Kellee.  Yes, it is  a numbers game and after Dan was gone Kellee could have been the next easy number.

[Otherkate]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:22 PM, truthaboutluv said:

I was so excited for a minute thinking he was about to talk his pervy ass out of the game when Jeff snapped back at him that he would always bring up this issue. Because till that point, Dan was up there trying to act like he was some victim being attacked by Jeff. And it's all this that makes me know that "apology" of his was bullshit. And I doubt this is the first time a woman has felt uncomfortable by Dan.

The red flags were waving HIGH for me when he came with the "if I happened to brush past you, happened to accidentally touch you, etc." Classic gaslighting and excuses by someone like him. "What, me, I just accidentally brushed by you. I am shocked, shocked I tell you that anyone would feel uncomfortable by me".

Oh god, this was some grade-A gaslighting right there. So many of us have been on the receiving end of this. 

In addition to this, his reaction to Jeff and his downright snarling response to Kellee snuffing out her torch was enough for me to see exactly who Dan is. It's also hilarious to me that he keeps bringing his career as a talent manager up as some shining example of his morality. I mean, really? Of all professions, that one sure seems like a giant drop in the opposite bucket to me.

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

The fact that they were issued within minutes of each other tells me that the CBS PR machine was heavily involved.

Both Missy and Elizabeth's responses sounded like they were either written by a lawyer or a PR crisis manager with a lawyer reading it over before release. 

This episode seriously bummed me out and made me feel sick to my stomach. I'm not sure that I want to watch the rest of this season. I was liking Missy, but that's clearly out. There's really no one I can root for except Janet and I just don't see that playing out well. God knows I can barely stomach the sight of Dan. If he lasts beyond next episode, I'm going to have to tag out for the rest of this season. But even if he is out, I'm not sure I can stand to look at Missy or Elizabeth either.

This has all been really, really upsetting and I'm feeling like I may be, mentally, better off just bailing and coming back next season.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by Otherkate

[seltzer3]

The people to blame in all of this is production.  They let it get out of hand.  When did Kellee share she was uncomfortable?  On day 1

Yet the production team, didn't intervene till the merge?  They should have gave Dan the warning on day 1, and removed him if there were further actions.  It is BS for them to talk to other contestants (especially Kellee) and asked if they wanted Dan to be pulled.  Because the responsibility should not have been on Kellee and others to make that decision (especially with Kellee probably aware of the potential whiplash she will face both in and outside of the game).  Yeah, what Missy, Elizabeth and the rest did was incredibly disappointing.  However,  they should have the balls to remove Dan from the game themselves if it go to that point.  

If you watch other international seasons of Big Brother.  Production does not play.  Any hint of sexual harrasement/and racial slur they give them generally one warning and kick them out (or just kick them out).  

But of course Probst and production want to pretend to be the "woke" show, and how admirable it is to talk about sexual harrassment, and throw the cast members under the bus.

[After7Only]

7 hours ago, DEL901 said:

I wonder if Dan's anger at Kellee stems partially from the producer "talk"... if he knew that Kellee was the one who had the problem with him and talked to production... 

That was my assumption.  Kellee is the only one who did push back directly to Dan about the touching.  So I'm sure he knew the complaint was from her.  

I'll take the unpopular opinion here.  While Dan was dead wrong for his touchy feely ways.  I don't think it rises to the case of assault or he should have been outsted.   Realistically, how would you police that going forward?   Survivors touch each other all the time.    The issue is somewhat subjective.   And what would stop people using those type of accusations for gameplay purposes (like Missy and Elizabeth did).  I do think the warning was approriate and if he continued then you oust him.

Kellee was obviously upset by Dan's actions.  But at the same time we've seen her pull out the tears on cue to manipulate her tribe when she was hiding her immunity idol in her hair.   So part of me wonders if some of her reactions to the Dan situation with the other ladies were gameplay as well.  

This is such a complicated issue.  It's just hard to completely judge anyone as 100% anything in this situation.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by After7Only

[seltzer3]

Also its not like Production has had a great track record with this either.

Like when in China when Jean Robert would creepily would insist for Amanda and Courtney to cuddle with him.  Even when both of them expressed discomfort about it.

And I'm pretty sure Russell had some pretty sketchy issues as well.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I think the claim that Dan wasn't being sexual because he was just touching toes or shoulders or whatever is misplaced. For one thing, we heard Elizabeth say that he was grabbing boobs at night and we also saw him grinding up against (I think) Missy. But even if it were just an arguably benign type of touching, it wouldn't matter because he was told to stop and the fact that he's not getting any sexual gratification out of it is beside the point. Sexual battery is not about sex; it's about power. When Kellee, for example, tells him to stop touching her and he continues to touch her, he's sending the message to her that he can do whatever he wants and she can't stop him. He's essentially saying, "I'm just putting my hands in your hair now, but I can put any part of my body in any part of yours at any time and you can't do shit about it." It's not just his hand on her face; it's an implicit threat and it's a sickening, frightening feeling to be on the receiving end of that.

Yes, thank you, exactly.  All of this, and the bolded hits the home point the most.

I believe that all of this is true and this is exactly how Kellee was made to feel.  "You can't do shit about it".  He touched Noura at Tribal Council in front of everyone, and Jeff.  I do what I want to you. You can't do shit about it.  And you won't.

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I feel like the men in this thread have been so great, so I'm not speaking to any of you in particular, but to men in general, when women are just generally talking about this topic, assume that they're speaking from a place of experience and defer to that.

I agree.  I wish that people didn't feel the burden or the need to announce that they've been a victim of assault to be taken seriously.  Many or most people have.  Anyways, people's feelings should be taken seriously regardless.  If people feel free and happy to announce that, then that's great.  But I don't want anyone to feel forced.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

 Jeez some of you guys are so black and white about this and there IS a gray area, you know.

When a woman tells you not to touch her, there is literally NO gray area.  None.

12 minutes ago, After7Only said:

Realistically, how would you police that going forward?   Survivors touch each other all the time.    The issue is somewhat subjective.   

The big difference is that, in this situation, Kellee told Dan several times not to touch her. At one point, they showed us a clip where she literally had to run away to get him to stop touching her.  It's not subjective when someone has been told to stop doing something and they continue to do it anyway.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Rachel RSL

[Ms Blue Jay]

16 minutes ago, seltzer3 said:

If you watch other international seasons of Big Brother.  Production does not play.  Any hint of sexual harrasement/and racial slur they give them generally one warning and kick them out (or just kick them out).  

That's what I want from "Survivor" . And guess what, Big Brother is NOT hurting for ratings!  It'll outlast the planet.  Soooooo Survivor can do the same without sacrificing or compromising anything.  

[RescueMom]

These episodes were really triggering for me, and it has been helpful to read through all of the insightful discussion and commentary on this forum. I don't post often anymore but I read every week, and I thank all of you who have taken the time to post so thoughtfully. My heart breaks for Kellee and Janet to be put in such bad situations. 

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, except for this: in all of the pre-season hype, Jeff was constantly talking about the amazing group of strong women playing this season, and how much we were going to love them. And it seemed to be true until this week, and I was so excited to watch a kick-ass season of kick-ass women. And then this happened. And we got to watch the truly strong and kick-ass women got smacked down over and over again, while a few vile ones behaved reprehensibly and that is what people are almost certainly going to remember about the women this season. (NOTE: I know Dan is the root of the problem here and I am not giving him a pass one bit, only commenting on the women's behavior because it contrasts with what I was led to expect from the women this season.)

I don't know if I will watch next week. I hope that Janet and Noura and Karishma are able to turn things around and make it all the way to the end. But I am sick to my stomach imagining a final 3 of Dan, Missy, and Elizabeth, because that would mean that Kellee and Janet would actually have to vote to give one of them a million dollars. Which would be just the icing on the cake.

[Bryce Lynch]

45 minutes ago, After7Only said:

That was my assumption.  Kellee is the only one who did push back directly to Dan about the touching.  So I'm sure he knew the complaint was from her.  

I'll take the unpopular opinion here.  While Dan was dead wrong for his touchy feely ways.  I don't think it rises to the case of assault or he should have been outsted.   Realistically, how would you police that going forward?   Survivors touch each other all the time.    The issue is somewhat subjective.   And what would stop people using those type of accusations for gameplay purposes (like Missy and Elizabeth did).  I do think the warning was approriate and if he continued then you oust him.

Kellee was obviously upset by Dan's actions.  But at the same time we've seen her pull out the tears on cue to manipulate her tribe when she was hiding her immunity idol in her hair.   So part of me wonders if some of her reactions to the Dan situation with the other ladies were gameplay as well.  

This is such a complicated issue.  It's just hard to completely judge anyone as 100% anything in this situation.  

The stuff I recall him doing to Kellee didn't seem to rise to the level of sexual assault, though once she told him to stop it was sexual harassment.  I'd fire him in second, if he worked for me, but I don't think he could be criminally charged. 

Some of the stuff he was doing at night, (I believe to Missy and perhaps others), might be considered sexual assault.  But, I'm not sure anyone complained to him or made a formal complaint about it to production.  We heard some talk about it in camp, and it seemed clear they didn't think it was appropriate.  But, they weren't wiling to jeopardize their games over it.   I suppose this could mean, they didn't consider it that serious, or that they were taking  the game so seriously that they were willing to endure a certain amount of sexual harassment and perhaps even sexual abuse/assault to try to win the million dollars. 

Given how despicably Missy and Elizabeth behaved, I suspect the latter.

This whole thing has made me think that maybe Survivor has gotten too damned cutthroat.

Maybe we need a return of "bitter" juries, or at least ones that will impose more of a moral code on players.  It seems like there is almost no place at all left for any type of honor.  

Sexual harassment and lying and using it as a move aside, I think maybe jurors should start punishing things like targeting a truly good  person because they are a FTC threat and targeting people who sacrifice for the good of the tribe.   (Janet would fit both of these categories).  Perhaps dragging a goat to FTC should also be punishable by a 0 vote FTC.  

Ultimately juries create the unwritten code of Survivor.   To borrow from Omar from "The Wire", maybe we need a little less,"It's all in the game." and a little more, "A man got to have a code."  

[Drogo]

Oof.  I just saw a clip of the TC again, and I'm ready to direct my ire at production.  

If Dan was given "An Official Warning" after Kellee's teary TH and the private individual meetings (Official Warning being "Stop fucking touching women or you're out of here, Dan") ...

Why the actual fuck was him grabbing and rubbing Noura's upper chest at TC tolerated?  Did they ignore it because he meant it as "an example"...?   Get a fucking PowerPoint, Dan, draw a diagram in the sand, but don't touch Noura.  She seemed so uncomfortable and shocked that it happened.   He'd been given an official warning from the producers by that point, and it should've been zero tolerance from then on.  

[sadiegirl1999]

I know we are in no way indicative of the typical viewing audience but based on responses here, it doesn’t look like that many people will be watching, if ever again. 
 

I know I won’t. I will check in here to see who’s voted off. If Dan,Missy and Elizabeth and possibly Aaron are voted off next, then I’d watch but for now I’ll wait until next season. 

[RescueMom]

Just now, Drogo said:

Oof.  I just saw a clip of the TC again, and I'm ready to direct my ire at production.  

If Dan was given "An Official Warning" after Kellee's teary TH and the private individual meetings (Official Warning being "Stop fucking touching women or you're out of here, Dan") ...

Why the actual fuck was him grabbing and rubbing Noura's upper chest at TC tolerated?  Did they ignore it because he meant it as "an example"...?   Get a fucking PowerPoint, Dan, draw a diagram in the sand, but don't touch Noura.  She seemed so uncomfortable and shocked that it happened.   He'd been given an official warning from the producers by that point, and it should've been zero tolerance from then on.  

Yes, that was super disturbing. And you can see the uncomfortable look on her face as she leans away from him. 

[Drogo]

Just now, RescueMom said:

Yes, that was super disturbing. And you can see the uncomfortable look on her face as she leans away from him. 

"I'll never let it go, Dan!  But go ahead and keep grabbing Noura, because I'm clearly comfortable pretending that's not even happening." 

[violet and green]

Here is a rather good summary of the main events, and it includes an email interview with Jeff, fleshing out some of the facts, in case anyone is interested:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/survivor-jeff-probst-speaks-dan-spilo-controversy-1254554

Not sure if this is okay to link, or if this this the right place to put it... But I am relieved, having read it, that I don't need to rewatch the eps after all, to get the timing of each moment straight in my head, etc, because I just couldn't face it.

[himela]

So Aaron says "If this was truly a general tribal concern, I would have been involved, Tommy would have been involved, and Dean would have been involved.". But according to the producers they had talked to each individual separately a couple days ago. Aaaron can't be crazy. DID the producers say the exact matter of concern to everyone? So why does Aaron claim he is not informed about it?

Something stinks.

[LizBug]

IMO ... all this questioning and posturing by Jeff during recent tribal councils is his way of making up for the fact that his talk show was cancelled.  

It's not enough for tribal council to be relevant to the game; it also has to be relevant to current social issues as well.    So he probes and questions.  

And, by the way, in the past, he's said that he doesn't know what goes on daily at the camps.  When he happens on a tribal conflict, it's just happenstance.  Well ... now production/Jeff are admitting that they do know what's going on ... that they review happenings every day.  

[Nashville]

14 minutes ago, himela said:

So Aaron says "If this was truly a general tribal concern, I would have been involved, Tommy would have been involved, and Dean would have been involved.". But according to the producers they had talked to each individual separately a couple days ago. Aaaron can't be crazy. DID the producers say the exact matter of concern to everyone? So why does Aaron claim he is not informed about it?

Something stinks.

Maybe.  Or maybe - just maybe - Aaron is a dumbass oblivious Butt-trumpet Of Ignorance who could have the secret to Life, the Universe and Everything shoved up his ass (right alongside his head) and still be unable to locate it with both hands, a flashlight, and functional GPS.

Bet I know which option is going to come down on the near side of Occam’s Razor.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, himela said:

So Aaron says "If this was truly a general tribal concern, I would have been involved, Tommy would have been involved, and Dean would have been involved.". But according to the producers they had talked to each individual separately a couple days ago. Aaaron can't be crazy. DID the producers say the exact matter of concern to everyone? So why does Aaron claim he is not informed about it?

Something stinks.

Jeff says several players knew they were discussing Dan but not all. I can see the women and Jamal knowing who was referenced bot not Aaron, Tommy, and Dean. Dan didn’t know who the Producers were talking about until they warned him specifically. 

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Also strange was Missy and Aaron going out at dawn to look for an idol and one of them saying something like, "he said it was in a crevice." I don't particularly want to watch the episode again to see if I'm getting that right, but if I am than who is the "he" they're talking about? It's obviously not Jamal, Tommy, or Dean, and I'm not a tin-foil hatter, so I'd like to know what that was all about.

I was wondering about that, too. I found it so odd. I guess whoever upthread said the 'he' is Jamal may be right, but I find it hard to understand why Jamal would tell Aaron and Missy where he found his idol.

4 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I don't mean to diminish what happened for the sake of ratings, but I have a feeling that Probst & Co. are patting themselves on the back, thinking they handled this all very well, with great gravitas and sensitivity.  

I'm sure they are and the media is gassing them up about how great they handled it as well which I do not understand at all.

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Why the actual fuck was him grabbing and rubbing Noura's upper chest at TC tolerated?  Did they ignore it because he meant it as "an example"...?   Get a fucking PowerPoint, Dan, draw a diagram in the sand, but don't touch Noura.  She seemed so uncomfortable and shocked that it happened.   He'd been given an official warning from the producers by that point, and it should've been zero tolerance from then on.  

Thank you. I was just dumbfounded by that. And you could easily tell that Noura was uncomfortable as hell; I know that nervous laugh all too well. I can't believe no one said anything about it. Maybe they were just in shock.

1 hour ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I know we are in no way indicative of the typical viewing audience but based on responses here, it doesn’t look like that many people will be watching, if ever again. 

The thing I hate most is that I will absolutely keep watching. I hate myself lol.

[seacliffsal]

I will also keep watching.  However, I won't hate myself, but will hate some of the players.

[jabRI]

14 hours ago, himela said:

If the show wanted to present this serious matter with the seriousness it needs, they would have shown the producers' talk with Dan, Kellee, Missy and Elisabeth. In this talk we would have seen and heard what truly happened, if things were exaggerated or downplayed, whether Dan understood what he was doing, whether Missy and Elisabeth used this as gameplay etc. The show doesn't give us these talks though because they want what is happening now: everyone speculating, presenting their own personal opinions, contradicted thoughts etc. They just want numbers = money. They don't want to RESOLVE the issue. This is my opinion. And it's not the usual talk of "why did this and this vote this way?", like game related speculation. If you want your audience to take you seriously, then provide us with all the proof and make things crystal clear. It doesn't make sense that producers gave Dan a warning but three days later he is surprised that this story is about him. Something is not right.

Having seen the episodes, I think this sums it up.  CBS is playing us and making a profit off of sexual harassment.  I say we match them by boycotting the rest of the season.  Hit them where it hurts, with your remote. I know I won't be watching, I have no respect for this show anymore.

[princelina]

18 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

We could go back to "old Survivor" if the producers would have enough integrity to kick out people who are acting physically towards other castmates and making them uncomfortable.  They kicked out Brandon Hatch -- well the actions by Dan or Richard Hatch or whatever happened to Ghandia (I never watched that season) should be looked at as just as serious.

Ghandia and Ted were snuggly sleepers together every night, until one morning she felt his morning boner and freaked out about it.  He was shocked and embarrassed and apologized and she acted like she accepted his apology but really didn't, from what I recall.  I do remember that I was Team Ted for that fracas.  (What I most remember about that season was an old lady named Jan who lost so much weight that she was having trouble keeping her dentures in her head 😄)