S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[sara416]

Holy shit. I binged this so fast, I think I need a rewatch, but I'm not sure if I can handle it. Given the title of this episode, I knew it was either going to end with happiness or tragedy. I knew I'd be crying either way. 

This was so different than the movie, but I am okay with both. The movie was total fan service, as it should have been since it was funded by fans. It had a lot of callbacks and reappearances, it had a more cutesy feel, and it ended happy. But this was more noir, which RT had eluded to in interviews before. I remember him saying that at the core, that's what VM always was: noir. It was a lot darker than I thought in a lot of ways, but it was great. There were just enough callbacks to things for fan service but it still moved on into it's own thing. 

As soon as that alert came through to Logan I knew they were going to pull a Jack McKay, and I was desperately hoping I was wrong. 

Veronica 2.0 (Maddy) was a little heavy handed, but I liked it anyway. The actress was good. 

I know that KBell is a huge true crime fan and loves Keith Morrison, so the little true crime easter eggs throughout the series made me smile. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by sara416
I had more thoughts

[Clare]

It just occurred to me to feel bad for Dick.  He lost his father and his best (only?) friend within a day.  So much I wish we were seeing. 

[Whimsy]

2 minutes ago, Clare said:

It just occurred to me to feel bad for Dick.  He lost his father and his best (only?) friend within a day.  So much I wish we were seeing. 

On top of his father being a criminal and his brother being a mass murderer. I feel worse for Dick than Veronica. I feel the worst for Logan, obviously. I’m actually glad, now that I’ve had a little time to think of it, that he got to marry the love of his life before he died. At least he was happy for a little bit. Still mad and think it wasn’t necessary, despite what RT is saying. 

[kieyra]

I always disliked Logan, so I’m fine with this (would have been fine with him not appearing at all) ... BUT, another show I watch which had a relationship I was deeply invested in did the same thing a few months ago, in a stupid unearned way, and the message was definitely “sometimes life just sucks, and besides everything is shitty now anyway”. So I’m definitely sympathetic.

The show was

 

The Magicians

on SyFy.

I can sympathize with RT as a creator. I was a day one VM fan (sent the mail to Dawn Ostroff and everything), but I always thought the show had leaned in way too hard on Logan being a jackass sadist early on for him to have earned the romantic lead adoration from fans (and almost instantly). And it remained a sticking point for me for the rest of the show. My gut reaction was that Logan shouldn’t be so much of a focus or an “OTP” situation, and apparently RT felt the same, but yeah, if people are this upset, they might have done it wrong.

Maybe just writing him off the show would have been better. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by kieyra

[Sakura12]

I liked this season, like others it felt more like the Veronica Mars of old than the movie did. I thought it was Patton's character from the beginning, then they managed to make not think it was him. Until Leo told her about what he did in college. 

I also loved seeing some the cameos, although the Parker one was a little strange. I loved seeing Leo. Even though he's too goofy and normal for Veronica. She loves danger. 

I used to be a fan of LoVe when the show was first on, I did a re-watch a few years after that and no longer liked them. So while this wasn't an ending I wanted for them, I'm just kind of glad it wasn't Keith. Their relationship was the real draw for me on this show during all my re-watches. I was so worried he was going to die the whole time. 

I'm also okay not seeing Veronica grieving, we've seen that already. So I'm good with the one year later showing that she hasn't completely moved on but is trying too and seeing a therapist finally. I'd watch more seasons. If they do come back I hope they can get Mac back. They were acting like Veronica has no friends. She has two. Wallace and Mac. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Sakura12

[gallimaufry]

I thought the season was decent, if a bit cold for the most part - not much emotional investment until near the end.  I liked the way it used lots of past characters but smartly and unobtrusively.  The plot was decent and kept me guessing even if the final reveal wasn't exactly a Beaver type shocker.  I thought it might be Matty.

But the ending just felt... meh.  I'm not a shipper especially and it's obvious that the show's dependence on Logan is its Achilles heel, although frankly the material has always generally been stronger when they've been together than broken up.  He's there because he's such a strong, magnetic character and it seems impossible to imagine that they would ever believably replace that. So killing him off also kills off all sorts of avenues of development for Veronica, some of which they were doing a pretty decent job of exploring.  And to do it in such an offhand way made it feel strangely undramatic.  It wasn't moving or full of great acting and it doesn't obviously set up future possibilities (I love Patton Oswalt but there's no way his character's going to become Veronica's Moriarty or anything).  It felt like a move not a piece of drama. 

It reminds me of Lamb's death (although that, it seems, was forced by circumstance) in that it seems like a huge missed opportunity.  The death of Logan would be a case that could finally eclipse Lilly's in terms of emotional investment and resonance but this was only one up on putting on screen: "Note: Logan died on the way back to his home planet."

I was more shocked by the way Big Dick went out and I was keener to see Dick's response to his father's loss but we didn't get anything of that. 

So... good season but a really poorly executed ending.

And the show has always been so on the bubble that, absent the huge Logan fanbase, I don't think S5 is exactly likely which means this was likely also the last word on the show.

[secnarf]

I knew it. I cussing knew it.

The minute Logan proposed, I knew he was a goner. And then, seeing the title of the last episode sealed the deal. Not to mention the entire season I felt like Logan was a guy I would want to date, and I had never ever felt that way about Logan before.

I was actually hoping it was Keith. Not that I don't love the guy, but I felt that Veronica could move forward from Keith's death with Logan by her side. Losing Logan feels like she lost her future.

I don't really see how the show can move forward from this without losing the core of what it is. And I really really don't think Logan's death is what the show, the fans, or Veronica needed. I feel like we needed another episode or so to get the emotional impact of everything that happened.

[Vella]

I enjoyed Logan/Veronica, but this entire season, I've been feeling that the pairing was restless, that Logan was just kind of THERE, trying to be level headed, patient and understanding. It was almost like he didn't really fit in the landscape of the show anymore.

So, while it was kind of abrupt, I think ultimately it was a good choice to kill him off. Killing him off while he was on the job would have been better, but it opens up Veronica Mars to new avenues. Ultimately, I'm happy with it. Keith/Veronica was and always will be the heart of the show.

[Affogato]

I actually randomly saw the movie with a friend that also had not seen the tv show. Neither of us found Logan compelling, both of us liked Keith, and I thought the epic speech was from some movie I'd never seen. Close enough? I later read the books and then, with a little unplanned time off, I read some fan fiction. It took me a while to get to the actual tv show.

Now in the books Veronica reviews her decisions. She shows insight. It makes it clear that she has learned to cope with the emotional and verbal abuse that was such a struggle for her, that she won't be manipulated. As a psych major you would think she would have undergone some therapy, or at least come to grips with the concept (and would think Logan had a point in the 4th season), So that's the Veronica I like. The one that had a brother she was willing to support and talk to and visit. 

I believe this season is Veronica telling Jane about what happened. I think the Veronica we see is colored by Veronica's self hate and anger, and Logan improved by the deification Veronica bestows (as she did on Lily) after death. I haven't got the strength to watch it again, right away. Even so this is coming across to me as a reboot, more than a revival of the previous material. 

Veronica, and this may make fan's happy (if fan fiction is any measure and until L is killed), seems to be the Veronica of Season 1. Everyone's favorite Veronica. In love with Logan but with trust issues. Of course, now Older, bitter, stagnant and with very little hope of change, it seems, as befits someone who is stuck in their Junior year of high school emotionally. One thing that also bothers me is that in five years she hasn't bothered to get better at her job. No computer skills ala Mac, no self defense. 

Logan apparently, trying to live up to her, has surpassed her in every way, to the point where Jane and everyone else probably wonder why he is still around. The answer is  that she is the long term constant in his life and the one person that, at one point, believed in him. 

And what am I saying?

I don't believe this is the Veronica I met in the books. I found the season painful to watch because of that. I don't think they addressed the issues of Veronica wanting the edge of abuse Logan offered her sexually, I think she is much more isolated at the end of the story than at the beginning (and not just because of Logan) and while I'm not a huge LoVe fan I think they should not have fridged him. She should have stayed and dealt with her jealously of Leo and probably Logan, dealt with all the issues, and I don't think bouncing from place to place is the way to do it, although it may make a decent case of the week (talk with jane after) series of stories, I may not be there to see it. 

What attracts me to Veronica is her willingness to help people no one will believe or help, and her personality that is at odds with her appearance, but if they move forward I don't want a simplification of the characters and flaws. I want them to deal with what is on their plates. 

I'm going to try to not think about this for a while. 

[JamieLynn832002]

24 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I don't believe this is the Veronica I met in the books.

I don't really think this Veronica was someone any of us had met before, Veronica always, at least post Lilly, had an edge but this Veronica was less "has an edge" and more "randomly a bitch to literally everyone" to the point that no one in the real world would willingly spend time with her. 30-something, in a five year stable relationship Veronica should not be less stable than 17 year old, best friend murdered, recent sexual assault victim Veronica. 

I feel like we were supposed to take her seeing Jane as progress and it was but going to a single therapy session a year after your husband was blown up before your eyes while you packed for your honeymoon and then immediately fleeing town and abandoning your entire support system doesn't scream "this person is going to be okay."

[moonshine71]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I liked this season, like others it felt more like the Veronica Mars of old than the movie did. I thought it was Patton's character from the beginning, then they managed to make not think it was him. Until Leo told her about what he did in college. 

I also loved seeing some the cameos, although the Madison one was a little strange. I loved seeing Leo. Even though he's too goofy and normal for Veronica. She loves danger. 

I used to be a fan of LoVe when the show was first on, I did a re-watch a few years after that and no longer liked them. So while this wasn't an ending I wanted for them, I'm just kind of glad it wasn't Keith. Their relationship was the real draw for me on this show during all my re-watches. I was so worried he was going to die the whole time. 

I'm also okay not seeing Veronica grieving, we've seen that already. So I'm good with the one year later showing that she hasn't completely moved on but is trying too and seeing a therapist finally. I'd watch more seasons. If they do come back I hope they can get Mac back. They were acting like Veronica has no friends. She has two. Wallace and Mac. 

Madison? Are you thinking of Parker, when Logan was getting the wedding license?

[Sakura12]

10 minutes ago, moonshine71 said:

Madison? Are you thinking of Parker, when Logan was getting the wedding license?

Yep I meant Parker. I was watching another show while I was typing. Fixed it.

[festivus]

I think that between The Magicians and Endgame tearing me up that shocking endings have just lost their power over me. I can't say I was ever a LoVe shipper but I did find their relationship interesting and I found Logan as a character interesting. So I'm sad for that reason but I can kinda see where you can't really have the show if Veronica is all happy. 

I actually didn't see it coming, I thought it would be Matty getting killed and Veronica would have to deal with basically seeing that happen to the young her and dealing with that guilt. I am usually wrong about these things.

Veronica's relationships with her dad and Weevil were always some of the things I liked best about the show and I liked what we got here. I'm sad that Keith and Clyde can't be friends anymore though but I'm kinda glad that Clyde skated. Must be the power of J.K. Simmons. Can't help but love him. I was so surprised to see Mary McDonnell as the therapist, I adore that woman.

[bettername2come]

I hate it when shows kill the spouse in the finale - Original Recipe Roseanne, Medium, 24 season 1. And if they were going to kill Logan, they could've done it in so many ways, incorporate a fatal flaw, make it about him at least or his work, but no, he's collateral damage from a crazed bomber who wasn't even the original bomber. It was stupid, cliche. Not what I needed. I knew when Logan, Veronica, Keith and Wallace were all gathered for the wedding that one of them would have to go, and man, I wish it were Keith. He had a good run and I could've dealt with the fakeout from the dementia to a sudden death. 

Logan got his shit together. He did the right things. He healed. He did good. He tried to deal with things appropriately. He finally got the love of his life to agree to spend the rest of her life with him and they get two fucking hours. It's wrong. He deserved better. He at least deserved a mystery.

[taragel]

So I actually did not think it was a very good season at all, and the only thing that made it more interesting was the ending. That doesn't mean I liked the ending (I'm torn, more on that in a minute), but I found this mystery incredibly BORING and simplistic, despite being overstuffed with red herrings and unnecessary characters. In fact, when I hit the halfway point after episode 4, I was complaining to friends that it was so dull and I liked the movie better. 

I don't understand why they went with THIS plot which barely affected Veronica and had very little personal stakes (besides the ending shocker), when they already had (in the first book) a spring break murders story hat ultimately led to SUPER PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES for Veronica's own life. That would have been so much more compelling and satisfying to see play out, instead of this dumb real estate/famewhore bullshit storyline, the most egregious part of which was the two Mexican hitman who literally could've wandered right out of a Fargo season. They felt incredibly out-of-place to me.  

This particular plot, though lackluster, could've even worked a lot better if the setup had been different and we'd met Matty first by Wallace being her teacher, and -- though i can't believe I'm saying this -- if Dick was a bigger part of the plot leading us to Big Dick's shenanigans. The Kane memorial high school thing could've been a much better vehicle/location for a bombing storyline about haves vs. have nots (and they could've had more Principal Clemmons!). They had so many ways they could've made it so much better and more interesting and more personal for Veronica. The Weevil/Veronica scenes were some of my favorite in the season, and it's a pity there were only a few. I would've really liked a whole/longer arc of that. 

As for Logan dying, I don't hate it entirely. I was never a huge LoVe fan, though you can't deny the chemistry, but this season was also constructed to pretty much show sexual chemistry was really all they had. They didn't communicate well, weren't ever on the same page, and Veronica seemed incredibly bored by normal!Logan. I actually thought that stuff was pretty smart and insightful and rightfully should have lead to a breakup. (Plus, I always liked Leo and I liked that she actually got to LAUGH and have fun with Leo. I mean if you want to give her a healthy relationship...) And then they decided to one-up it and make it super tragic "noir" by killing him off instead, so the "No I really do love you after all!" revelation and the wedding just ended up being red herrings to surprise you with the killing. A shame. They could've given Jason Dohring some better, more interesting material to play before getting rid of him. (And they wasted Mary McDonnell--which is really a crime.)

But like someone above said, if the choice was they had to kill Keith or kill Logan so Veronica could have an unhappy noir ending. I'm glad it wasn't Keith. I can handwave that "oh false alarm, I'm good!" ending just because I really didn't want Keith to have dementia, retire, or die. That being said, I'm not sure more tragedy for Veronica was the best choice. It had a real "how many lumps is the universe gonna give this girl?" feel to it. I saw folks online complaining that, like many other male showrunners, RT seems to think women can't be tough unless they have a lot of trauma. That's a shame, though it is in keeping with the PI/noir genre they desperately want this to be considered a part of. But I would like to see a Veronica who is badass just because she's confident and intelligent and wily, and not because she's bitter and hardened. 

All of that complaining aside, I'm intrigued as to what a S5 looks like. If it's an anthology, with her and just a whole new cast, I agree it won't be as compelling as Neptune and the gang there was. But they kind of painted themselves into a corner with making Veronica either a sad sack or a hypocrite who goes back to the hometown she hates. So I see why they feel they want her to move on. Her ties (except for with Keith) seem well and truly cut. She was not interested in Wallace's boring settled life, she fought with Weevil, Logan's dead, Dad's doing well. Time to move on. (I can't imagine Enrico wouldn't somehow be a part of any S5 even in a recurring capacity. We have to find out who is girlfriend is too.) 

Edited July 22, 2019 by taragel

[xhoipolloix]

Shocked and betrayed is how I feel. Why do I feel like Rob Thomas is now finally going to get his Veronica joins the FBI season that the fans and CW highjacked all those years ago.

Edited July 22, 2019 by xhoipolloix

[possibilities]

Wow. Even I thought that was a cheap shot. I never liked the Veronica-Logan relationship, but I thought that ending was just lazy and gratuitous.

The also killed Neptune, and I think that was way more interesting and I wish they had explored it more. Gentrification is a real thing. What happened to all the people displaced? The show I loved would have wanted to follow up on that, and not just abandon it for some rambling case of the week Lone Ranger bullshit.

Noir detectives are never fluffy and light, but the men are usually hard-boiled and cynical because of what they've seen, not because they are personal punching bags for the universe and suffer from trauma-induced personality regression.

I knew the backpack had a bomb the second dude wanted to bring it with him. I was shocked they didn't search it before letting him bring it with him. But then when there was actually another bomb at the school, I thought: huh.

And then I forgot about it until Logan went to move the car.

My other main complaint is that neither Maddy nor Veronica wear gloves when they are breaking and entering and doing stuff on an investigation. This was a problem in the original series, too. They are leaving their own fingerprints everywhere!! It was made worse when the Police chief and her deputy made a point of wearing gloves when handling the "make the mayor streak" letter. The show knows about gloves, they just don't make the PIs use them.

All that aside, I did really like the season. I would watch another, but I'm not sure if I'm interested in it if it's just going to be Veronica moving around from town to town by herself. She's the main character, but the richness of the show was always in the relationships and the community. I don't think I want a one dimensional whodunnit without the emotional depth and resonance that comes from the tapestry of enduring characters, including a well-developed setting.

Edited July 22, 2019 by possibilities

[Duke Silver]

Not to sound overly basic, but based on the ending, the biggest character death, for me, is Neptune itself.  The town was a living, breathing part of the cast as far as I'm concerned. 

[methodwriter85]

I'm not as invested in this show as I was back when I was watching this show as a senior in high school when season 1 aired, but I did enjoy the season, and honestly, if the set-up is to have Veronica travel around solving crime, I don't mind. But I don't know if the fanbase is actually going to be here for that.

9 hours ago, secnarf said:

I knew it. I cussing knew it.

The minute Logan proposed, I knew he was a goner. And then, seeing the title of the last episode sealed the deal. Not to mention the entire season I felt like Logan was a guy I would want to date, and I had never ever felt that way about Logan before. 

That was my reaction when the whole happy life sequence kept going on too long. My reaction was, "I knew it!"

I don't think I feel "betrayed" because the show was making it pretty clear this season that it had very little use for Logan and there was almost a beatific vibe of "this is the happy guy we'll always remember" deal going on, but I did agree with the viewers that it should have ended right on the bomb exploding. It wrapped things up just a little too neatly with a bow and I don't think that was the right call.

I'll watch a season 5 if it happens but MAN this show got dark as shit. At this point they need to just get it over with and have Veronica join the DEA and to catch the Sicario.

On a lesser note, I got a kick out of Kane High School looking like a tech startup office building. That feels very much in line with how they're building school and public library campuses these days, unless they're going for a specific "throwback" classic design.

[hiccup]

I was spoiled, dammit, before I even finished the 1st episode. I was pissed and sad, but wanted to keep watching because I needed to see how it happened. And overall, I thought the season was strong. Now after watching all of it, I'm not exactly sure how to feel, besides being really sad.

A part of me thought that he's not really dead, that he had to leave on a confidential mission, and that if there was a new season, it would have him returning. They made a lot of references to what he does and that he has to leave on a moments notice, with no idea of when he'll be back. I honestly did not think that Rob Thomas would do this to the fans of the show. But I realize now it was wishful thinking, because I can't think of any confidential mission that would require Logan to not be able to contact his wife. And, after reading the comments in this thread, I realize I'm pretty naive to all things Rob Thomas and Kristen Bell, with regard to Veronica Mars. I had no idea about all the things they've said in interviews about the LoVe relationship taking over and them not necessarily being happy about it. 

I get that this season was not going to be like the movie, which Rob Thomas said was a love letter to the fans. And I get that noir is not happy endings. I get that, I really do. But this really feels like a big fuck you to the longtime fans. Not just because of Logan and the many ways they could make it an unhappy ending without killing him, but because of how the ending is basically setting up Veronica being in other places. Sorry Rob Thomas and Kristen Bell, I'm not interested in a Veronica Mars show that is not in Neptune, with at least some of the characters we've grown to love. I simply don't understand why a creator of a show that was so successful in the eyes of critics and fans would move on from what made it so successful. Can anyone name a show that was successful after changing everything about the show? I'm not in the right frame of mind to think of any.

I wanted to have faith in Rob Thomas, that this was ending was just a classic cliffhanger, but the comments in this thread that mention his interviews, I think it would be even more naive of me to keep having that faith. 

I'm still in a bit of shock. I don't think this will ruin the previous seasons for me, but it may take me awhile before I can watch my DVDs again. Veronica Mars was one of my all time favorite shows. This ending for Veronica Mars, to me, is like if my all time favorite show, The West Wing, rebooted only to show that President Bartlet not only was a huge fan of Trump, but that he started campaigning for him. (Sorry for injecting politics into it, but it's an appropriate comparison for how I feel)

 

[Glory]

9 hours ago, taragel said:

As for Logan dying, I don't hate it entirely. I was never a huge LoVe fan, though you can't deny the chemistry, but this season was also constructed to pretty much show sexual chemistry was really all they had. They didn't communicate well, weren't ever on the same page, and Veronica seemed incredibly bored by normal!Logan. I actually thought that stuff was pretty smart and insightful and rightfully should have lead to a breakup. (Plus, I always liked Leo and I liked that she actually got to LAUGH and have fun with Leo. I mean if you want to give her a healthy relationship...) And then they decided to one-up it and make it super tragic "noir" by killing him off instead, so the "No I really do love you after all!" revelation and the wedding just ended up being red herrings to surprise you with the killing. A shame. They could've given Jason Dohring some better, more interesting material to play before getting rid of him. (And they wasted Mary McDonnell--which is really a crime.)

This, mostly. I hate that Logan died. But I thought there was a smart examination of the relationship going on at first. 

I loved the new weird Logan/Veronica dynamic that was going on. They were in a steady relationship, but the first few episodes and their examination of whether Veronica actually only liked Logan when he was an “obligatory psychotic jackass” were REALLY GOOD. 

I thought that the show was setting up a split – maybe Veronica would realize that she and Logan did not have a healthy dynamic because she was only really attracted to him when he was beating the shit out of people or ridiculously jealous or any one of those things… it seemed really well done and I could have lived with a split on those terms. 

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, taragel said:

I don't understand why they went with THIS plot which barely affected Veronica and had very little personal stakes (besides the ending shocker), when they already had (in the first book) a spring break murders story hat ultimately led to SUPER PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES for Veronica's own life. That would have been so much more compelling and satisfying to see play out, instead of this dumb real estate/famewhore bullshit storyline, the most egregious part of which was the two Mexican hitman who literally could've wandered right out of a Fargo season. They felt incredibly out-of-place to me.  

This particular plot, though lackluster, could've even worked a lot better if the setup had been different and we'd met Matty first by Wallace being her teacher, and -- though i can't believe I'm saying this -- if Dick was a bigger part of the plot leading us to Big Dick's shenanigans. The Kane memorial high school thing could've been a much better vehicle/location for a bombing storyline about haves vs. have nots (and they could've had more Principal Clemmons!). They had so many ways they could've made it so much better and more interesting and more personal for Veronica. The Weevil/Veronica scenes were some of my favorite in the season, and it's a pity there were only a few. I would've really liked a whole/longer arc of that. 

As for Logan dying, I don't hate it entirely. I was never a huge LoVe fan, though you can't deny the chemistry, but this season was also constructed to pretty much show sexual chemistry was really all they had. They didn't communicate well, weren't ever on the same page, and Veronica seemed incredibly bored by normal!Logan. I actually thought that stuff was pretty smart and insightful and rightfully should have lead to a breakup. (Plus, I always liked Leo and I liked that she actually got to LAUGH and have fun with Leo. I mean if you want to give her a healthy relationship...) And then they decided to one-up it and make it super tragic "noir" by killing him off instead, so the "No I really do love you after all!" revelation and the wedding just ended up being red herrings to surprise you with the killing. A shame. They could've given Jason Dohring some better, more interesting material to play before getting rid of him. (And they wasted Mary McDonnell--which is really a crime.)

On your first point, that move away from cases that are personally connected to Veronica seems quite intentional. They’re trying to leave Neptune behind. But I agree with you that the mystery is not very compelling without that connection. 

On Veronica/Logan, I think your characterization of their relationship is a little unfair. She laughed and had fun with Logan - we saw it in this very season. Their shared sense of humor and matching quick wits has always been a feature of their relationship. They’re both angsty, traumatized people but they’ve brought each other joy along with the sexual tension and drama over the years.

I just don’t at all agree with the idea that pursuing healing and healthier behaviors makes you boring, and I don’t think that’s really what the show was trying to say, either - they were making the point that Veronica is kind of toxic and a bad partner because she refuses to deal with her shit. Of course, they stepped all over their own thesis with the ending, so I’m not surprised the message is muddled. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, Constable Bob still has his go bag!

As much as Matty wanted the person behind the Sea Sprite bomb to pay, I don't think she wanted to watch Big Dick get stabbed and decapitated. I hope she's not even more scarred for life as a result.

Awwww, I thought it was kind of sweet that Clyde just straight up told Keith that he wanted to be friends. It's true that it's hard for guys their age in their line of work to make new friends, and they seemed to get along.

I enjoyed LoVe when the show originally aired, but I am not an avid shipper anymore. When the new season on Hulu was announced and they hadn't announced everyone who was coming back, I would have been fine with Logan not returning because I could buy that things just didn't work out between him and Veronica (or that he was just deployed the whole time that S4 took place).

I'm sad he was killed off, not because I am a shipper or because I love Logan as a character, but because Veronica has already had so much loss and tragedy in her life that I wanted her to have someone (besides Keith and Wallace) who knew what she had been through and accepted her for who she is.

If RT just wanted Veronica to be Logan-less, they didn't have to kill him off and add to her pile of dead loved ones. There are so many other ways they could have gone with the story to cut her free from Logan. He could have been deployed long term. They could have broken up. Either of those would leave the door open for Logan to return as a character (not necessarily a love interest). If they were going to kill him off, especially at the end of the season, they could have made his murder the focus of Veronica's detective work the next season. But just killing him with Penn's backpack so that Veronica could have a reason to leave Neptune? Ugh.

As for RT wanting Veronica to leave Neptune and most of the other characters behind, no thanks. As much as I like KB and VM, for me the main appeal of the show has been Veronica's relationships with the people in Neptune. I love her scenes with Keith, Wallace, Weevil, etc. Leaving Neptune is a mistake too. As much as people always used to say that NYC was the fifth character rin Sex and the City, Neptune has been one of the main characters on this show. If S5 is not in Neptune and without the other characters besides Veronica, I don't know that there's enough to make me want to watch. And I say that as someone who loved this show and was obsessed with it back when it aired. It was the first show I loved as much as Buffy, which is saying a lot!

[Radian]

So is there any way Logan is still alive?  They never showed him getting into the car and they jumped to a year later.  He could have just been badly hurt but they might have used it to fake his death.  That would make a great 5th season.  Flashbacks to how he survived and ended up working for the intelligence agency as a spy.  Then Veronica would be keeping his secret all season.  But still secretly corresponding with him.  I am a huge skeptic when they don't show people actually dead in a TV show.  I've seen too many shows where people come back.  What does anyone else think about this theory?

[Amello]

I loved it! It was a shame Mac couldn't have been involved. I binged it all yesterday so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but was she even mentioned at all?

Hulu was right not to let them use the F word. The way around it they found was much more enjoyable to me and totally Veronica Mars.

Before I watched I read that Wallace wasn't used as much as he should have been, so was initially disappointed hearing that, but (and this may be because I binged it) I thought his place in the show made sense. His life his far too important to potentially leave it under threat with any of Veronica's antics.

I am not at all mad about Logan dying at the end. I've never been one to ship couples. Usually ship names sound so garbage to me that I resent them, but LoVe was a cute one, I'll give you guys that. From a character standpoint, I think we got all we could from Logan. He was certainly a favourite of mine to watch on the show, but he served his purpose. I was so happy to see him shine and grow and evolve from all his trauma. For those brief moments that we were led to believe he stood up Veronica, I was livid and feeling all the negative feelings people angry about his death were feeling. A wash of calm and thankfulness washed over me when he showed up. However, narratively his death made so much sense to me. I'll miss that the character is gone, but we are supposed to feel that way. I look forward to hopefully one day seeing Veronica in a brand new atmosphere. A new era so to speak.

Not to create a war, a battle, or even a slight inconvenience, but I thought Kristen Bell and Max Greenfield had more chemistry this series then she did with Jason Dohring. But, to be clear, I do not want them together or ship Veronica and Leo. I'm just talking about the energy I saw with the two actors when they shared a scene, unpopular opinion or not. Because when they also psyched us out of Veronica cheating on Logan, for that brief moment, no matter how easy it was to see that it was a dream, I still had a furious moment of "They better not!" 

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I actually thought all the stuff to do with Veronica and Weevil's complex relationship was the strongest part of the whole series. I never felt more invested than when they were hashing out their drama. I can't really explain why, but even time they fought, it was devastating.

I do think Jason Dohring and Enrico Colantioni were a little off in their performances this time around. They seemed a bit disconnected. (Don't hate me people) I'm just talking about the main cast here because then this post would be something different entirely. But I will also say, I do wish Patton Oswalt could have came across at all menacing when the reveal happened. As a serial killer, he should have struck a little fear in his crazy and not just gross delusion. 

Okay, I think I'm done.

[hiccup]

7 minutes ago, Radian said:

So is there any way Logan is still alive?  They never showed him getting into the car and they jumped to a year later.  He could have just been badly hurt but they might have used it to fake his death.  That would make a great 5th season.  Flashbacks to how he survived and ended up working for the intelligence agency as a spy.  Then Veronica would be keeping his secret all season.  But still secretly corresponding with him.  I am a huge skeptic when they don't show people actually dead in a TV show.  I've seen too many shows where people come back.  What does anyone else think about this theory?

I would love if that were to happen. Like you, I was hoping he didn't actually die and instead was pulled away on a secret mission. I dismissed that because I didn't think there was a way that he wouldn't have been able to communicate to his wife. But I like your theory, that she knows he's alive and is keeping it a secret. However, after reading the comments in this thread, it seems Rob Thomas didn't really like the LoVe relationship being a focus, so I'm not hopeful that will be the case.

BUT, if it turns out he's alive, I will beg forgiveness for ever doubting Rob Thomas.  🙂

[hiccup]

11 minutes ago, Amello said:

It was a shame Mac couldn't have been involved. I binged it all yesterday so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but was she even mentioned at all?

Yes, she mentioned it one of the eps that she couldn't use Mac for hacking because Mac was in Istanbul. 

[Whimsy]

3 hours ago, hiccup said:

I'm still in a bit of shock. I don't think this will ruin the previous seasons for me, but it may take me awhile before I can watch my DVDs again. Veronica Mars was one of my all time favorite shows. This ending for Veronica Mars, to me, is like if my all time favorite show, The West Wing, rebooted only to show that President Bartlet not only was a huge fan of Trump, but that he started campaigning for him. (Sorry for injecting politics into it, but it's an appropriate comparison for how I feel)

 

I started my rewatch late and had just finished watching Weapons of Class Destruction (the first LoVe kiss) when I noticed that season 4 had dropped.  So, I stopped my rewatch (since this would actually be probably the 4th time I've rewatched all of the episodes so I didn't really need a refresher) to binge season 4.  I actually found myself going back to season 1 to wistfully watch the LoVe scenes now knowing what would happen.  Puts a whole new spin on everything.  

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As much as Matty wanted the person behind the Sea Sprite bomb to pay, I don't think she wanted to watch Big Dick get stabbed and decapitated. I hope she's not even more scarred for life as a result.

Her face was the complete opposite of scarred.  I actually thought that maybe she was going to turn out to be a sociopath.  She seemed way too ok with watching that, imo. 

[joanne3482]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

I knew the backpack had a bomb the second dude wanted to bring it with him. I was shocked they didn't search it before letting him bring it with him. But then when there was actually another bomb at the school, I thought: huh.

What threw me off was that the police didn't take the backpack when they picked up Penn. I guess I can hand wave that the police presumed it was Veronica's or Logan's, I don't know. 

2 hours ago, Amello said:

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I actually thought all the stuff to do with Veronica and Weevil's complex relationship was the strongest part of the whole series. I never felt more invested than when they were hashing out their drama. I can't really explain why, but even time they fought, it was devastating.

Their friendship has always been so very interesting. In many ways Weevil is the male Veronica, a marshmallow. I loved the sister calling him out as having a crush on the little blond PI. 

8 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

Not to sound overly basic, but based on the ending, the biggest character death, for me, is Neptune itself.  The town was a living, breathing part of the cast as far as I'm concerned. 

1. Love your name and picture. That's awesome!  2. I totally agree. 

I agree with many above. I'm not positive I want to watch a show about her travelling around and solving crimes vs. being in Neptune.  I like the world they've built in Neptune. Veronica Mars solving crimes in San Francisco and Portland and Seattle would be weird.  Plus there'd be no opportunity for VeVil. (Kidding, sort of)

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Radian said:

So is there any way Logan is still alive?  They never showed him getting into the car and they jumped to a year later.  He could have just been badly hurt but they might have used it to fake his death.  That would make a great 5th season.  Flashbacks to how he survived and ended up working for the intelligence agency as a spy.  Then Veronica would be keeping his secret all season.  But still secretly corresponding with him.  I am a huge skeptic when they don't show people actually dead in a TV show.  I've seen too many shows where people come back.  What does anyone else think about this theory?

I think their intention was to completely kill him off, but perhaps they left themselves a bit of wiggle room to give them space if the fan reaction was really bad? Otherwise I don't see why they would have left his death even a tiny bit in doubt.

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

Her face was the complete opposite of scarred.  I actually thought that maybe she was going to turn out to be a sociopath.  She seemed way too ok with watching that, imo. 

I don't really get what on earth they were trying to do with the Matty character. The whole season (until the end) seemed to be telling us that Veronica is not a functioning adult because of her past traumas and inability to move on, yet they are presenting Matty following in her footsteps as a positive thing. The themes in the writing are just all over the place.

[luna1122]

According to RT,  Logan is really truly dead. Of course, he could be a big fat liar. He's also okay with fans being upset, as long as they stick around. "But I will have made a really bad bet if, en masse, the fans turn on the show. That would certainly be a tough lesson to learn.”

I don't know, but he might learn that lesson.

https://tvline.com/2019/07/22/veronica-mars-logan-dies-season-4-finale-rob-thomas-interview/

There's a link to the interview with JD in that article too. He was pretty gutted, at first.

I'm feeling bitter. This just screams trying to be edgy or something, and it was unnecessary. And it does seem like a big old Fuck you to fans of V and Logan.

Overall, I loved the season. And I don't want to be this way, but this might have ruined the whole show for me. I need more distance from it, which is maybe silly, but whatever.

I most definitely have a new and forever answer to the 'What television show character's death upset you the most?".

Why did Logan and Leo act as if they'd never met one another?

Do  none of these folks have social media? V didn't know Leo was divorced, or at the FBI? Logan didn't know Parker was divorced, and she didn't know he and Veronica were still together? Does no one FB stalk exes on this show, like normal people do?

Also, I haven't seen this mentioned: (if it has, sorry), Keith's personal trainer/physical therapist in the first episode was Corny? I only know this cuz the closed captioning told me so, but IMDB confirmed it.

[Melgaypet]

So I said I was going to sit with this awhile and now I have, so I'll amend my opinion a bit. I still think the choice to kill Logan off was a good one, on a narrative level and a character one, I think I agree with those that say the execution was a bit lacking. It came across weirdly afterthought-ish. Shocking, but a bit hollow.

All-in-all, though, I'd give this season a B+.

[Sakura12]

I would've been fine with Logan leaving Veronica (not at the alter) before that. He could've realized that she was not as into working on their relationship as he was. He was always trying to talk to her about it and she'd just brush him off. Then she couldn't even spend 5 minutes talking to him when he was deployed and didn't have a lot of time to talk to her. Veronica was content to leave everything as it was and he wasn't. I don't even know what he was getting out of their relationship anymore. He was trying to heal and be better and she wanted him to be the same violent jackass he was before. That's not healthy for him.

Even if he didn't die. I didn't see their marriage lasting. Veronica refuses to deal with her issues and from that she would never be fully committed to their relationship. The only difference in their relationship would be they have rings on their fingers. 

Although I don't know if Logan breaking up with her would be enough to push her to going to therapy like his death did. 

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Although I don't know if Logan breaking up with her would be enough to push her to going to therapy like his death did. 

I was just remembering that this wasn't the first time Logan tried to push her to deal with her issues - recall that in season 3, the original reason they broke up was that Veronica couldn't get past her inability to trust and stop being reckless and Logan recognized how unhealthy it was. So he made the choice to end their romantic relationship and offer his continued support as her friend. Of course, they undid that within a couple episodes and had Logan pull a "we were on a break" because Veronica must always be the wronged party, but that's beside the point.

Logan being open to changing and bettering himself for Veronica (and then eventually for himself) has always been part of their relationship story, as has her refusal to return the favor. I think that kitchen sex scene was less about how turned on she gets by angry Logan (though clearly she does) and more about her resenting that he is able to grow and change in a way she can't and wanting to punish him for that. I really would have liked a season that was committed to exploring that, and they could have done it even within the framework of still killing him off and making his death a more central feature of the season.

Edited July 22, 2019 by stagmania

[Hoi Polloi]

It would not have been horrible if Logan and Veronica broke up. But killing Logan? Just no. Logan season 2 when he was desperately working to clear himself of Hector's murder all the while antagonizing Veronica and seeking her help is one of my favorite Logans. The character is just too interesting to kill off.

[CerealKiller813]

22 hours ago, kieyra said:

I always disliked Logan, so I’m fine with this (would have been fine with him not appearing at all) ... BUT, another show I watch which had a relationship I was deeply invested in did the same thing a few months ago, in a stupid unearned way, and the message was definitely “sometimes life just sucks, and besides everything is shitty now anyway”. So I’m definitely sympathetic.

The show was

  Hide contents

The Magicians

on SyFy.

I SCREAMED after reading this because OMG I felt that same gut churning feeling with it happened on that show too!  What is the end goal here? I’m not ok. I just finished watching and WOW. 

[BoogieBurns]

1 hour ago, joanne3482 said:

Their friendship has always been so very interesting. In many ways Weevil is the male Veronica

Every time he saves her life (which is quite often), I love their friendship more and more. I like how hard they have to work to stay friendly, but how quickly they will stand up for each other. It's like she has a protective big brother... that's the same age as her.

Also, Wallace was looking so handsome.

[AllyB]

Ok so this is a very weird observation. Whenever I see Brad Morris, who played Matty's dad Sul, I think he looks just like a younger version of the actor Wallace Langham. So I was so confused when the courthouse clerk appeared, played by Wallace Langham. Everyone else watching may have been having an emotional reaction to Logan's 'sorry' text. I was just wondering why Sul had reappeared (or at least Sul's big brother) and how the shock of it should be distracting them even a bit from Logan's text.

[gallimaufry]

So Rob's interviews pretty much confirm that it was a plot move to set up a single, free-wheeling detective Veronica.

The weird thing about Rob in his new interviews is that he talks about him and his staff not being mystery writers primarily but being character writers first and yet... it's the characters who have been completely underserved this year and in previous VM seasons that had flaws.  The first season was completely character driven because the mystery was built around Veronica.  No, you can't do that every year and one of the struggles the show had in S2 and S3 was keeping Veronica invested in the various mysteries.  But the show's biggest triumphs came from character just the same -- S2 had a weak plot but Beaver as the villain redeemed it because we cared about him so much; and the consequences of Veronica's vengefulness in 320 put everyone she loves at risk and torpedoed her father's campaign.  It feels though that in moving away from "soap opera" the show is also trying to move away from... well... drama!

As has been mentioned upthread, "Thousand Dollar Tanline" especially had a much more emotionally-driven story for Veronica while Wallace and Dick were completely sidelined.  Yes, in the interests of accessibility but it's not like Wallace has huge backstory baggage anyway and Dick had so much to react to in the final episode (and, yes, availability but surely if they knew they were killing Big Dick they could have planned the schedule earlier).  In fact, what scenes did Dick and his father have of any consequence?  Why use Big Dick at all if this was all he was there for? Keith's dementia had huge potential for pathos but that plot was, in the end, just a red herring and a less-impressive rehash of the paternity revelation in S1.   

And of course, the off-screen, off-hand Logan death - no character material there.  Jason Dohring would have smashed a death arc - look at how Veronica flouted the law when Duncan was in trouble in S2.  Imagine how far she and Logan would push each other if things became really bad; if their backs were against the wall, if one or both were in mortal peril, if their mistakes really caught up with them.  That's your noir right there.  Whereas Rob has said he feels proud at how Logan and Veronica getting together in 118 was "earned", they didn't even try to earn Logan's death.

Moving on from Neptune seems a particularly bad move.  So much of the show is the aesthetic.  I mean, you could temporarily take Sherlock or Luther out of London, Batman out of Gotham or Spidey out of New York but ultimately these characters are grounded in such a sense of place that to do so for very long would seem counterproductive.  But then this isn't the first weird decision he's made in the interests of trying to slot VM into a genre box -- episodes 16-18 of S3 also suffered from the arc-free approach.  And the FBI pitch was a lucky escape.  In retrospect, Rob's been self-sabotaging VM for a long while.  Such a waste.

[luna1122]

In the video embedded in the article I linked above, the cast gives their reactions to the news of Logan's death. While KBell sings the praises of JD's creation of the character, she seems (to me, still all bitter) annoyingly matter of fact about it all, cracking GOT jokes, etc...when she's speaking, JD looks pensive, and at one point, Francis Capra reaches over and puts his hand briefly, as if he's comforting him, on JD's knee. Choked me right up. Ryan H also seems pretty emotional about it.

Wallace/Percy IS so pretty.

They do at least mention that JD could show up in dreams/haunts of Veronica in later seasons, if they happen, but that is very small comfort.

[CerealKiller813]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

On your first point, that move away from cases that are personally connected to Veronica seems quite intentional. They’re trying to leave Neptune behind. But I agree with you that the mystery is not very compelling without that connection. 

On Veronica/Logan, I think your characterization of their relationship is a little unfair. She laughed and had fun with Logan - we saw it in this very season. Their shared sense of humor and matching quick wits has always been a feature of their relationship. They’re both angsty, traumatized people but they’ve brought each other joy along with the sexual tension and drama over the years.

I just don’t at all agree with the idea that pursuing healing and healthier behaviors makes you boring, and I don’t think that’s really what the show was trying to say, either - they were making the point that Veronica is kind of toxic and a bad partner because she refuses to deal with her shit. Of course, they stepped all over their own thesis with the ending, so I’m not surprised the message is muddled. 

I totally agree with your views on the Veronica/Logan relationship. We can’t expect Logan to act better but not see Veronica’s flaws as well. She does need to deal with her shit. Plus Logan and Veronica are always joking with each other and giving little quips. Their sexual chemistry to me was the cherry on top but I always liked seeing them joke around with each other. It reminded me of the times when they were secretly dating and they would stay in and just chill. The best relationships are the ones where you can just be around each other and...be. 

I would’ve been ok if they broke up because of the real issues like his work schedule taking him away for extended periods, her resistance to therapy or even her attitude with his anger—or lack thereof. Now it just seems like this will be another issue that she doesn’t deal with. I guess it will come out during her next case. The next bad guy is gonna get a hell of a tasing! Lol jk....maybe.

[apinknightmare]

After reading the postmortems, I am kind of surprised (IDK why, but I am) to see that Rob thinks the primary driver of fandom for this show is the mysteries, and not Veronica's relationships. How the mysteries involved/evolved her relationships were what made them interesting to me! I don't think Veronica Mars out solving mysteries in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people is nearly as big of a draw as he seems to think it is. I'm not even really sure why he believes it would be. 

[BoogieBurns]

52 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Whenever I see Brad Morris, who played Matty's dad Sul, I think he looks just like a younger version of the actor Wallace Langham

Just googled them, and while they do look similar, Brad is a year older! lol

[ruby24]

Well, I have no interest in seeing Veronica wandering around the country solving mysteries, so I won't watch any more of it, however it returns. He also talks about her needing to be single so they can introduce the possibility for more romances. HA! Yeah, fans are really going to be there for that.

I don't get why he couldn't have just created a new character for Kristen Bell and done a new series, anthology style, like he's talking about now. Why ruin the Veronica Mars mythology with this ending? 

[kieyra]

47 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

After reading the postmortems, I am kind of surprised (IDK why, but I am) to see that Rob thinks the primary driver of fandom for this show is the mysteries, and not Veronica's relationships.

I know the 'shipper' vs 'non shipper' debate is as old as ... well, X-Files at least, but I'm not really in this for the romance, no. What I really like is watching Veronica talking back to, and taking down douchebags. And being investigatey. And snarky. She does need a few characters to ground her, though, so they'll either have to include Keith/Wallace/Weevil somehow, or spin up some really solid new characters. I suppose seeing her have a functional relationship with a female friend would be cool as well.

PS, I'm fine if I never, ever have to see Dick Casablancas again.

Edited July 22, 2019 by kieyra

[stagmania]

10 minutes ago, kieyra said:

PS, I'm fine if I never, ever have to see Dick Casablancas again.

Dick is unfortunately the one side character they're likely to never drop, because Ryan Hansen is Kristen Bell's real life BFF.

[kieyra]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Dick is unfortunately the one side character they're likely to never drop, because Ryan Hansen is Kristen Bell's real life BFF.

Mehhh. I had a feeling it must be something like that. 

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I know the 'shipper' vs 'non shipper' debate is as old as ... well, X-Files at least, but I'm not really in this for the romance, no. What I really like is watching Veronica talking back to, and taking down douchebags. And being investigatey. And snarky. She does need a few characters to ground her, though, so they'll either have to include Keith/Wallace/Weevil somehow, or spin up some really solid new characters. I suppose seeing her have a functional relationship with a female friend would be cool as well.

PS, I'm fine if I never, ever have to see Dick Casablancas again.

It wasn't a shippery comment.

Veronica's relationships also involve her family, her friends, the one with Neptune. Everything about Rob's commentary indicates that they're going to be moving on from those to continue with Veronica in new places with new people. Granted, I could be wrong and they could uproot a person or two to carry over, but it just doesn't seem like that's the plan based on what I've read, and I think that's a mistake. 

[redpencil]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

In the video embedded in the article I linked above, the cast gives their reactions to the news of Logan's death. While KBell sings the praises of JD's creation of the character, she seems (to me, still all bitter) annoyingly matter of fact about it all, cracking GOT jokes, etc...when she's speaking, JD looks pensive, and at one point, Francis Capra reaches over and puts his hand briefly, as if he's comforting him, on JD's knee. Choked me right up. Ryan H also seems pretty emotional about it.

They were definitely a little too jokey and jolly about it for me, though obviously it's a lot fresher for us than it is for them. I do feel like KB and RT didn't give it as much deserved weight as the other cast members did. Francis and Jason are apparently really close, so that didn't surprise me.

Also, I think they were joking about Logan haunting Veronica, but even if they weren't, I wouldn't have much interest in that. I don't have much interest in watching the show without Logan let alone without Veronica even in Neptune. I think Rob has miscalculated, but obviously nobody knows for sure yet. Certainly either way he's definitely lost a lot of fans. Whether that's enough to affect any potential future viewership, we'll see. And while he doesn't owe me personally anything and he can do what he wants, I do feel a bit stepped on, like he doesn't care if I continue to watch or not, as long as enough other people do.

If Rob wants to focus soley on the mysteries, okay (though that's not what I personally want from the show). But he's a writer. Be creative and find a way to do that without heaping more loss on her and killing something that was an essential part of the show for a lot of people (I get not everyone). Heck, Logan is in the military. Make him be on deployment most of the time, or just off working and we only see her at home rarely. Veronica can be strong without more loss. And while I don't want to watch her outside of Neptune, an easy way to do it would be to have him stationed elsewhere and she goes with him. And again, no need to have him on screen much.

I just don't get the thought process here, and I think he might lose his bet.

Edited July 22, 2019 by redpencil

[festivus]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

Ok so this is a very weird observation. Whenever I see Brad Morris, who played Matty's dad Sul, I think he looks just like a younger version of the actor Wallace Langham. So I was so confused when the courthouse clerk appeared, played by Wallace Langham.

Ha! Same. I knew it wasn't him (not at first though, it took me a minute) but man do they look alike.