S02.E07: I Want To Know

[txhorns79]

27 minutes ago, scrb said:

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

The others are in legal jeopardy with Bonnie.  Once Bonnie confesses the original story they all told was a lie, the police are going to want to speak to all of them. 

Depends on whether the DA is politically ambitious, dreaming of a big trial with national or international media coverage.

The police are going to want to speak to them regardless of whether at some later point the DA might charge them with a crime. 

[Dminches]

It was probably not smart thinking on Bonnie’s part to dump her husband right before admitting to a crime.  He could end up with custody of their daughter for some time. 

[sunshine23]

The more I think about this season, the more annoyed I get. The strong women we met in season 1 have been reduced to wimpering fools. The only part of the old Madeline we saw was when she started taking charge of the vow renewal. Otherwise, nothin'. Her throwing the ice cream cone at ML would have been much more true to the character than her just walking away time after time.

Yes, Nicole Kidman did a great job when Celeste finally woke up but really, all she did this season was walk around looking defeated and sad. It wasn't until the end when ML came to her door that she really showed any fire.

Bonnie? Waste, waste, waste. We get introduced to these 2 parents she never mentioned in season 1 and get snippets of abusive behavior, but then, nothing. Again, all Zoe Kravitz had to do was sit in a hospital room looking sad. If this were season 1, the writers may have at least explained more of the backstory and why she married what's his name without loving him. 

Jane, again just looking wistful and sad about how to explain to Ziggy that she loves him and he wasn't a mistake. At least Shaline Woodley had some range of acting, but it was extremely limited. And lets not forget the horror of THE HAIR.

Renata was the only one with any fire, but again, not in true Renata fashion.. She only turned on what's his face when pushed too far, but not ML whenever they came in contact. Season 1 Renata would not fall for ML's Machiavellian behavior. She'd have told her what to do with herself, and how to do it. How sad that even without a true storyline, Laura Dern/Renata was the most interesting one to watch. I knew when she was on the screen something enjoyable would happen.

Mary Louise. The character I loved to hate. I think Meryl Streep did a great job but again, backstory? Suddenly Celeste knew about how the son had died, but never knew earlier in the season? How about how this helped develop ML's character and, in turn, maybe Perry's. Was she a helicopter mom? Was she trying to replace her sons? Was she just cuckoo for cocoa pufs? So many questions.

The finale was a matter of the writers saying; "Okay, we started this story and threw this in, so we need a way to end it Now!" over and over again. 

I'd expected so much better.

Edited July 22, 2019 by sunshine23
hit save too soon

[pammieg99]

I am an attorney for children (but not in CA).  The custody story line has been pretty incredible all season.  While I understand that this is a drama, I cannot imagine any scenario like the last courtroom scene where the boys would be present, whether to hear the proceedings, rulings or the random "closing statements" by ML and Celeste, especially at their ages.  While they may have expressed their preferences in chambers to the judge (which we didn't see, but was hinted at during Celeste's discussions with them while getting ready and in a previous episode), they still would not be allowed in the courtroom for the exact reason demonstrated by this show: they would potentially hear bad things about the important people in their lives.  

[Dminches]

43 minutes ago, sunshine23 said:

Yes, Nicole Kidman did a great job when Celeste finally woke up but really, all she did this season was walk around looking defeated and sad. It wasn't until the end when ML came to her door that she really showed any fire.

The woman lost her husband and was on the brink of losing her sons. How were you expecting her to act?  She was an abused woman who was totally confused as displayed in well acted and written therapy sessions. And she was complicit in hiding his killing, which is what it was  

Acting as nothing bad had happened would have been completely unrealistic. They way she did behave was much more consistent with things that had played out. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Dminches

[dmc]

This season was not well put together which proves not even the best acting cannot save poor writing.  The story just wasn’t there.  
 

The men on this show leave a lot to be desired, I knew Renata’s husband was an *sshole when he got involved with his wife’s issue with Jane that the women were handling fine alone.  He threatened her and then started throwing his weight around that cafe.  Decent men don’t threaten women so not surprised he’s the worst.  I think Renata finally saw the light when after he lost everything he made a deal to keep a bunch of toys.  But I thought he was gross last season. 
 

Then I never got the sense that Maddie’s ex was terrible to Bonnie so I guess she just doesn’t love him but he also sucks.  
 

As women start making more work on their own, it’s weird how the perception of men on television and film is changing. When men were doing all the writing television looks a lot different lol 

Edited July 22, 2019 by dmc

[tennisgurl]

I didn’t dislike this season as much as a lot of people did, but the big issue I had was actually similar to an issue I had with last season, just it’s bigger and more obvious now. The constant red herrings and plots that seem to be going somewhere but meant nothing in the end were just annoying, and made many bits seem like a waste of time. Mary Louise suspects foul play in Perry’s death? She never finds out and the women turn themselves in independently of her. Ed could contemplate revenge cheating with the teachers wife? He turns her and her creepy jerk off journal down offscreen and gets back with Madeline and it’s never brought up again. The constant tension between Ed and Nathan? Nothing really comes of that. Janes new boyfriend is kind of odd and suspicious, he’s just some guy I connected to all of this. Perry’s backstory includes a dead brother and a second family? Nothing comes of it beyond finding out that Mary Louise was probably an abusive parent, which I guessed pretty quickly. Bonnie’s mom is psychic and abusive and saw Bonnie dying? I guess drowning was metaphorical, and Bonnie made peace with her? Maybe? So much was set up and with so little pay off, and while I thought that was kind of annoying last season, especially with the conclusion (turns out the person responsible for every bad thing is..the worst person on the show!) at least last season did have a mystery, so it made some sense to add a bunch of red herrings everyone, and while the reveals were pretty obvious, they did make sense. These mostly made sense too, but without a bigger reveal at the end like last season, it all just seems like wasted time, abandoned plot threads, and a show that wasn’t sure what it was doing without its source material.

Edited July 22, 2019 by tennisgurl

[rlc]

I know it’s ridiculous to question/nitpick the plot, but who watches the kids while they’re at the police station?

[love2lovebadtv]

3 hours ago, freebie said:

There's a difference between hearing some elementary school bully throwing around words he probably doesn't understand and hearing your mom, who has previously been so careful not to disparage your dad, say what Celeste said in court. The boys might know, but they've certainly never heard their mother speak of the circumstances in quite that way before. 

Celeste and Jane have both talked to their kids. I know Jane, in particular, had to explain what assault was. But the boys were only in court when the judge delivered her final decision. I'm not sure they talked about the evil that Perry had done since I thought the arguments had been wrapped up by then. Mary Louise and Celeste kept glancing at the boys and Mary Louise was careful with how she worded her little speech at the end. Moments like that were so real and wonderfully acted. 

[Inquisitionist]

11 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I think they did as well as they could with the time allotted.

They had 7 hours.  No excuses.

10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What kind of clueless pig was Renata's husband? Goading her like that after everything that had happened?

I knew about 5 seconds into the scene that Renata would be destroying that train set.

8 hours ago, Lily H said:

What a huge disappointment. Celeste had a few good moments in the courtroom, but I was somehow hoping for more. And the part where the judge, who has already made her decision,  allows Mary Louise to stand up and start pontificating again was just stupid.

The courtroom stuff was beyond unbelievable.  Wasn't season 1 a BIT more grounded in reality than this shit-storm?

8 hours ago, Vella said:

So ultimately, there was no point to Corey. And there was no point to Gordon losing all the Klein money and screwing the nanny. 

Geez, that stupid nanny should have had Gordon on a pay-as-you-fuck plan.

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Awww, Ed and Maddie's vow renewal with just Abigail and Chloe was sweet. It's not a magic wand but hopefully it's a new start for them. It was a nice reminder to all of them to focus on their family.

Ed's proposal to renew their vows, and to fully understand what that MEANS, was the one part of the finale I liked.

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

We all are left to imagine what happens to the Monterey 5 after they walk in to the Police Station?  Beyond being guilty of delaying/impeding the investigation, I would imagine none of them are going to be charged with murder.  Maybe manslaughter or a lesser charge?  But Bonnie was defending a person getting beaten up. She was intervening to assist someone first, not deliberately trying to kill the aggressor.  And if anyone with a grain of sense in the aftermath of the "push" thought about it, or obtained legal counsel LAST SEASON, we wouldn't have had to limp through this extraneous second season. 

Considering all the other hand-waving we were forced to do this season, I’ve decided they end up talking with the detective’s boss, who remembers all of Celeste‘s bruises from that evening and thought the detective was ridiculous to continue the investigation.  They explain what happened and how they were trying to protect Celeste.  They explain that they lied to protect their children, who didn’t need to know their dad was an abuser and rapist.  They admit the lies were misguided, since the boys found out anyway.  He takes their statements, but just sends them home with no repercussions and officially closes the case.  

The scene I wanted was Madeline finally telling Ed everything.

[Ms Blue Jay]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

If this is Emmy-stature work, um, well, not impressed.  Watched Reese krinkle her eyes through a serious conversation and I guess that passes for emotion.

I loved Reese in Season 1, but I understand the complaints about this episode.

Is anyone else here a fan of "Lie to Me"?  That show has ruined me.  Tim Roth is the lead character on that show and he explained that when people were speaking in affirmations, but shaking their head "no" throughout the speech, it means that they are lying.

Now, I have no idea if this is true or if the "science" on that show was accurate whatsoever.  But I do know that show has ruined me, case in point:

Reese/Madeleine said all these positive things to Ed about the vow renewal: "Yes I would love to do this.  Yes that would be wonderful.  Yes I am totally on board" but Reese shook her head "no" throughout the whole scene.

Does anyone else notice things like that?  Is anyone else ruined by this kind of "science" about people supposedly lying?

 

15 hours ago, Dminches said:

I thought they made it clear that Corey was brought in for questioning and that's it.  Only some viewers thought it was more than that.

Ed did not screw her.  I didn't think that was unclear.

I disagree.

The Corey thing was NOT written well enough to be clear-cut.  Like @chocolatine said, the writing is too ambiguous and I don't blame the viewers for still thinking that Corey is suspicious.  If we're too take the writing at face value, it's not clear, it's not resolved, and the Corey/cops thing makes no sense.  

And maybe Ed DID have sex with Tits McGee.  Why did he want to do a vow renewal all of a sudden, to "start fresh"?  Maybe to absolve himself of something?  Hhhhhmmmmmmmmm.

 

13 hours ago, sunshine23 said:

Jane, again just looking wistful and sad about how to explain to Ziggy that she loves him and he wasn't a mistake. At least Shaline Woodley had some range of acting, but it was extremely limited. And lets not forget the horror of THE HAIR.

I very much agree with you

12 hours ago, dmc said:

The men on this show leave a lot to be desired, I knew Renata’s husband was an *sshole when he got involved with his wife’s issue with Jane that the women were handling fine alone.  He threatened her and then started throwing his weight around that cafe.  Decent men don’t threaten women so not surprised he’s the worst.  I think Renata finally saw the light when after he lost everything he made a deal to keep a bunch of toys.  But I thought he was gross last season. 

Also the way he was leering at Bonnie dancing at the birthday party, remember? 😁

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I very much agree with you

Also the way he was leering at Bonnie dancing at the birthday party, remember? 😁

Yes he was always GROSS. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

51 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

They had 7 hours.  No excuses.

I agree, no excuses.  Also they could have asked for 100 hours.  

HBO would have let them do whatever they want.  There were 6 years between two seasons of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and the head of HBO told Larry David "just come back whenever."

So it's weird for it to be framed like "They only had 7 hours allotted, good job" .... mm I disagree.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[sashayshante]

So I guess ML no longer wanted to know how her son really died? She dropped that quick.

 

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I loved Reese in Season 1, but I understand the complaints about this episode.

Is anyone else here a fan of "Lie to Me"?  That show has ruined me.  Tim Roth is the lead character on that show and he explained that when people were speaking in affirmations, but shaking their head "no" throughout the speech, it means that they are lying.

Now, I have no idea if this is true or if the "science" on that show was accurate whatsoever.  But I do know that show has ruined me, case in point:

Reese/Madeleine said all these positive things to Ed about the vow renewal: "Yes I would love to do this.  Yes that would be wonderful.  Yes I am totally on board" but Reese shook her head "no" throughout the whole scene.

Does anyone else notice things like that?  Is anyone else ruined by this kind of "science" about people supposedly lying?

I loved Lie To Me so much I took a class in microexpressions. It's fascinating stuff and some thing everybody should study. It's a great tool to use when navigating difficult situations.

[meep.meep]

9 hours ago, Vella said:

The courtroom scenes were ridiculous. And dull.  The judge letting Mary Louise drone ON while knowing she wasn't giving ML the kids? Wasted time. And it was rather galling that Renata, Maddie AND Jane all showed up to support Celeste but nobody went to the hospital to support Bonnie while her mother was DYING? Bonnie's story ultimately chickening out and limping along to the end.

I think they were called as potential witnesses so they had to be in court.  Bonnie could get excused with a serious illness in the family, but not her friends.

If ever anything called for a Director's Cut, it's this show.  As someone said, they had 7 hours to tell the story.  But what we got to see was around 6 hours.  Bet things would make more sense if Andrea Arnold's vision and scenes were put together, rather than her scenes and Jean-Marc Vallee's editing.

[Penman61]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

That leads me to...maybe this is just me, and I am being too sensitive, but I find it rather problematic that, on a show that had domestic abuse and its horrors as a major plot line, and also a scene where Renetta smacks her husband with a baseball bat and its this "yeah go girl, badass!" moment. Smashing his toys up because that guy is a major league pig and dickhead? Which he certainly is, but still. I can get behind that to an extent, but not actually getting physical with your significant other, even if they're a lying sack of crap and the marriage is clearly almost over. Not that its anywhere near the Celeste and Perry abuse, or that their marriage was every abusive or that I am comparing Renetta to someone like Perry, but the cognitive dissonance of going from one scene of us all gasping in horror at Perry beating Celeste, and a whole season about the fall out from that and trying to teach the twins that violence isn't the answer and that being violent like their dad is wrong and will lead down a bad path, to what was I guess an empowering scene of Renatta giving her husband a pretty strong hit with a baseball bat during a fight just made me feel...wrong. "Violence is wrong and unless its a life or death situation its never how we should solve our problems, especially in relationships...unless your a woman and your husband is a cheating loser, in which case its awesome and you should hit him again!" 

Thank you for this, and this moment really undermines the show's ostensible moral underpinning about domestic violence. Renata is pushing 6 feet tall and in good physical condition and she just HIT HER HUSBAND WITH A BAT IN A RAGE. (Obvs a smaller, weaker person can also do damage WITH A BAT, but I'm also talking about the optics, here. Renata is clearly at least Mr. Renata's physical equal.)

I'd actually enjoyed Renata's Rages™ up to now because (iirc) they've all been verbal, not physical, and largely understandably motivated.

But this was too far and struck a sour note in a story that is largely centered on domestic violence.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Penman61

[iMonrey]

I feel like the ending is where the season should have started: with the Monterrey 5 walking into the police station and confessing. Then the season could have been about the repercussions of that, They could have still had the custody battle and Mary Louise would have had even stronger motivation for it. The trust issues between Ed and Madeline would have still been an issue and he would have known about Perry too. They could have done something different with Bonnie because what they did do didn't work for me. Instead we got a lot of manufactured drama that left us on a cliff-hanger, and I don't know how that's satisfying for anyone.

Quote

I feel like the writers wrote "Emmy reel" scenes for Meryl Streep & Laura Dern first, THEN half-assed it to craft the rest of the stories around them. 

Agreed. So much of the season was spent on Mary Louise monologing her way through town with no real resistance. It very much felt like scripts were just written to capitalize on having Meryl Fucking Streep on the show. That final pitch she was allowed to give the judge was a step too far, I was like "Oh, come ON." The writer just couldn't resist giving her one more long speech.

[sunshine23]

2 hours ago, Dminches said:

The woman lost her husband and was on the brink of losing her sons. How were you expecting her to act?  She was an abused woman who was totally confused as displayed in well acted and written therapy sessions. And she was complicit in hiding his killing, which is what it was  

Acting as nothing bad had happened would have been completely unrealistic. They way she did behave was much more consistent with things that had played out. 

True but her sons lost THEIR father so it would have made sense for there to be scenes with either Celeste bringing them to the therapist or all of them in family counseling. Since she was 1/5 of people there the night Perry died there could have been more scenes with the 5 together. It would have made a lot of sense for Celeste's claws to come out once she started seeing ML's true intentions, not until the very last episode. So, bottom line, there was a lot that the character could have done between doing nothing and acting as though nothing had happened.

As for the comment "would have been completely unrealistic", as opposed to all the other completely unrealistic behaviors in this show? 

[zobot81]

I want to have more to say about the season and its finale, but I don't.  It was fun.  And while I enjoyed Renata immensely, I will give the award for most entertaining to Marie Louise.  Fact is, she made me feel physically uncomfortable.  Her embodiment of a coiled rattlesnake, striking out verbally and unloading emotional venom into her victims on an episodic basis was simply stunning.  She floated about Monterey as a treacherous, graceful, dangerous specter, haunting these women and meaning them all harm.  So when she is finally forced to eat her own delusions on the witness stand, I felt tremendous relief that it was over.  And I'll admit that I cried a little bit when the boys hugged her goodbye.

The ambiguity/unresolved stuff with Corey felt like a failure of editing -- or the result of the show-runners' choice not to fully resolve his story-line.  I think he was intended to be "more" than just an informant, but somewhere along the lines they didn't want to dive that deeply into his backstory (for whatever reason).  To this end, the truncated and choppy way that his dialogue with Jane was edited after his big "informant" reveal makes me think that they edited his arc to suit the change in post-production.

[Dminches]

46 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I disagree.

The Corey thing was NOT written well enough to be clear-cut.  Like @chocolatine said, the writing is too ambiguous and I don't blame the viewers for still thinking that Corey is suspicious.  If we're too take the writing at face value, it's not clear, it's not resolved, and the Corey/cops thing makes no sense.  

And maybe Ed DID have sex with Tits McGee.  Why did he want to do a vow renewal all of a sudden, to "start fresh"?  Maybe to absolve himself of something?  Hhhhhmmmmmmmmm.

What did Corey do to warrant being labeled as a potential plant?  How would they have possibly made it clear that he wasn’t?  While the writing may not have been great it seems like his role was to see if Jane could trust another man. 

Regarding Ed, he could have slept with McGee or anyone else for that matter but he didn’t come around all of a sudden. He was on the fence but Madeline's wedding dress scene was endearing to him. It made he realize he was still interested in her. 

[Razzberry]

21 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

And maybe Ed DID have sex with Tits McGee.  Why did he want to do a vow renewal all of a sudden, to "start fresh"?  Maybe to absolve himself of something?  Hhhhhmmmmmmmmm.

Oh HELL yes.  I prefer to believe Ed's resentment toward Maddy and her lover was relieved only by grudge-fucking Tori, which left him feeling a little guilty but chuffed, hence the punching bag.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

But this was too far and struck a sour note in a story that is largely centered on domestic violence.

Yeah, it really confuses the message when you play violence in a marriage as tragic most of the time, but as comedic and awesome this one time. It reminds me of when on shows like Law and Order SVU they show rape as a very serious and horrific crime on their case of the week (as they should) but will gleefully threaten their (always male) suspects or perps with prison rape as a joke (enjoy those drop the soap cracks! HAR HAR! Rape is an horrible epidemic in our prison system! HAR!) or as some kind of karmic retribution that the audience is supposed to cheer about. Even if the person being threatened (or even just Mr. Renetta who is just an asshole) does deserve to have bad things happen to them because of awful things they've done, its hard to go from being sicked by something like domestic abuse one minute and be told to cheer for it the next, it confuses the issue, and leads to a really creepy slippery slop. "Violence in a relationship/rape/whatever is bad and evil and a horrible crime and the victim should never be blamed...unless the audience doesn't like them (and usually if its a man) its now hilarious and awesome and they totally deserve it!" Having this in a show with such a powerful message about domestic abuse just seems wrong. 

[slowpoked]

6 hours ago, Dminches said:

Rarely are people binary in the sense of being all good or all bad.  How can someone not feel sympathetic towards someone who has lost both her children?  Conversely, how can someone not hate someone trying to steal 2 young boys from their mother?  Both of those scenarios can co-exist.  

Before all of this started, ML's lawyer warned her - "Do you really want to go through all of this? There's a chance you would be estranged (paraphrasing) from your grandsons for good..."

I guess that all came true, as she was driving to San Francisco.

I would have more sympathy with ML if she hasn't been so passive-aggressive with the entire group. I'm sure her concern from the boys is coming from a genuine place, but also at the same time from trying to redeem her son and "winning" over Celeste.

I'm kind of disappointed the big battle between Celeste (and the Monterey Five) vs. ML came down to the custody of the boys. I thought when Streep joined the show, the focus would be on finding out what really happened to his son. The custody battle just seemed to be Plan B when she couldn't get the detective to work on the case. She just seemed to be determined to hurt Celeste, one way or another. That also references the weaker writing this season. The custody battle seemed to come out of nowhere.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

"I want to know" WTF I watched for 7 weeks. 

I feel like the writers wrote "Emmy reel" scenes for Meryl Streep & Laura Dern first, THEN half-assed it to craft the rest of the stories around them.  

(snip)

I don't get the point of Bonnie's mom.  She came in like a stealth shit stirrer and ends up dying silently? I guess we got a little bit of Bonnie's back story filled in but, still unsatisfying.  And, since no one cared enough to make us care about Nathan, bye dude!

Madeline & Ed's marriage is magically healed with some cool hipster throwback music & a hippy chic private beach wedding?

(snip)

We all are left to imagine what happens to the Monterey 5 after they walk in to the Police Station?  Beyond being guilty of delaying/impeding the investigation, I would imagine none of them are going to be charged with murder.  Maybe manslaughter or a lesser charge?  But Bonnie was defending a person getting beaten up. She was intervening to assist someone first, not deliberately trying to kill the aggressor.  And if anyone with a grain of sense in the aftermath of the "push" thought about it, or obtained legal counsel LAST SEASON, we wouldn't have had to limp through this extraneous second season. 

I kind of feel that way too.  I strongly suspect that the most of Bonnie's mom plot was left on the cutting room floor.  I think there is a reason we got 45 minute episodes, and it hurt.

The other plots, the things I care about along with watching Meryl and Nicole chew the scenery?  Things like Madeline telling Ed the truth, or Ed finally having good sex, or some explanation for Bonnie's mother, or her marriage, or watching Renata do more than rage?  Not there, and I strongly suspect it's because they were the cuts Vallee made.

6 hours ago, chlban said:

Agree. I was there, still "loved" my husband, no longer in love, and there was no third party. It was very, very slow process and I would never have said I had never been in love with him, that just diminishes everything. No, that was not  realistic.

I kind of got that.  Bonnie was done with lies.  I don't think her intent was to hurt him, but simply to not drown in yet another lie.  As for her husband?  At least now he knows how his first wife felt, and really, maybe he will grow from that.  At heart, Bonnie was a very truthful person, and sometimes, truth does hurt, but in the end, it's better than lies.

5 hours ago, Dminches said:

It was probably not smart thinking on Bonnie’s part to dump her husband right before admitting to a crime.  He could end up with custody of their daughter for some time. 

Hello!  It's also idiotic to not have them each show up WITH their attorneys.  She's a lawyer, she KNOWS THAT.  (sigh)

5 hours ago, sunshine23 said:

The more I think about this season, the more annoyed I get. The strong women we met in season 1 have been reduced to wimpering fools. The only part of the old Madeline we saw was when she started taking charge of the vow renewal. Otherwise, nothin'. Her throwing the ice cream cone at ML would have been much more true to the character than her just walking away time after time.

Yes, Nicole Kidman did a great job when Celeste finally woke up but really, all she did this season was walk around looking defeated and sad. It wasn't until the end when ML came to her door that she really showed any fire.

Bonnie? Waste, waste, waste. We get introduced to these 2 parents she never mentioned in season 1 and get snippets of abusive behavior, but then, nothing. Again, all Zoe Kravitz had to do was sit in a hospital room looking sad. If this were season 1, the writers may have at least explained more of the backstory and why she married what's his name without loving him. 

Jane, again just looking wistful and sad about how to explain to Ziggy that she loves him and he wasn't a mistake. At least Shaline Woodley had some range of acting, but it was extremely limited. And lets not forget the horror of THE HAIR.

Renata was the only one with any fire, but again, not in true Renata fashion.. She only turned on what's his face when pushed too far, but not ML whenever they came in contact. Season 1 Renata would not fall for ML's Machiavellian behavior. She'd have told her what to do with herself, and how to do it. How sad that even without a true storyline, Laura Dern/Renata was the most interesting one to watch. I knew when she was on the screen something enjoyable would happen.

Mary Louise. The character I loved to hate. I think Meryl Streep did a great job but again, backstory? Suddenly Celeste knew about how the son had died, but never knew earlier in the season? How about how this helped develop ML's character and, in turn, maybe Perry's. Was she a helicopter mom? Was she trying to replace her sons? Was she just cuckoo for cocoa pufs? So many questions.

The finale was a matter of the writers saying; "Okay, we started this story and threw this in, so we need a way to end it Now!" over and over again. 

I'd expected so much better.

I feel like the story was there, but it was cut to ribbons, and so none of it held together.  Style over substance, and incredible acting, but in the end, it's empty of substance, or logic.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I didn’t dislike this season as much as a lot of people did, but the big issue I had was actually similar to an issue I had with last season, just it’s bigger and more obvious now. The constant red herrings and plots that seem to be going somewhere but meant nothing in the end were just annoying, and made many bits seem like a waste of time. Mary Louise suspects foul play in Perry’s death? She never finds out and the women turn themselves in independently of her. Ed could contemplate revenge cheating with the teachers wife? He turns her and her creepy jerk off journal down offscreen and gets back with Madeline and it’s never brought up again. The constant tension between Ed and Nathan? Nothing really comes of that. Janes new boyfriend is kind of odd and suspicious, he’s just some guy I connected to all of this. Perry’s backstory includes a dead brother and a second family? Nothing comes of it beyond finding out that Mary Louise was probably an abusive parent, which I guessed pretty quickly. Bonnie’s mom is psychic and abusive and saw Bonnie dying? I guess drowning was metaphorical, and Bonnie made peace with her? Maybe? So much was set up and with so little pay off, and while I thought that was kind of annoying last season, especially with the conclusion (turns out the person responsible for every bad thing is..the worst person on the show!) at least last season did have a mystery, so it made some sense to add a bunch of red herrings everyone, and while the reveals were pretty obvious, they did make sense. These mostly made sense too, but without a bigger reveal at the end like last season, it all just seems like wasted time, abandoned plot threads, and a show that wasn’t sure what it was doing without its source material.

Well said, and I agree, except I seriously think the "abandoned plot threads" were because of the slash and burn editing.  I think the characters and their decisions were probably much more fleshed out, but Vallee had this stylized dreamy vision in mind, and wanted this to be more of a homage to his work, than to make any real sense.

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

They had 7 hours.  No excuses.

I knew about 5 seconds into the scene that Renata would be destroying that train set.

The courtroom stuff was beyond unbelievable.  Wasn't season 1 a BIT more grounded in reality than this shit-storm?

Geez, that stupid nanny should have had Gordon on a pay-as-you-fuck plan.

Ed's proposal to renew their vows, and to fully understand what that MEANS, was the one part of the finale I liked.

They didn't even USE 7 hours.  As Rolling Stone says in it's finale recap, "But my goodness, did it become frustrating watching these world-class performers give their all to such sketchy material. Too often, Season Two felt like a very long and expensive collection of deleted scenes from Season One — only displayed because they existed and the acting was wonderful, not because it was necessary, or at times even good, storytelling. Episodes tended to clock in around 45 minutes, on the extremely short side for pay cable, yet the amount of time devoted to characters staring at the ocean made them feel padded even at that length."  That works out to 5 hours and 25 minutes!  HBO would have given them as much time and as many episodes as they wanted.

I really wish they would release the "original directors cut" of this thing, because something tells me, we would know and care about Bonnie's mom, and the rest of the cast much more, and that it would make a certain kind of sense. 

Maybe there is a scene of the women discussing turning themselves in, for example, or at least Maddy telling her husband what happened.  SOMETHING.  Or Detective Franny would be more than a hulking presence out there in the dark.

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Considering all the other hand-waving we were forced to do this season, I’ve decided they end up talking with the detective’s boss, who remembers all of Celeste‘s bruises from that evening and thought the detective was ridiculous to continue the investigation.  They explain what happened and how they were trying to protect Celeste.  They explain that they lied to protect their children, who didn’t need to know their dad was an abuser and rapist.  They admit the lies were misguided, since the boys found out anyway.  He takes their statements, but just sends them home with no repercussions and officially closes the case.  

The scene I wanted was Madeline finally telling Ed everything.

I did too, and it might have made the wedding plan actually mean something.  More than that though, I wanted to see Maddy really love him, all the way, and mean it.

Did we even get a resolve to Tits Magee?

44 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Oh HELL yes.  I prefer to believe Ed's resentment toward Maddy and her lover was relieved only by grudge-fucking Tori, which left him feeling a little guilty but chuffed, hence the punching bag.

At the very least, I would have enjoyed seeing the resolve to that, whether or not actual sex happened. 

ETA

I'm not satisfied with them all just walking into the police station either, it's corny and pat beyond belief.  WHY?  Where are their lawyers?  Why no conversation about that?  Why didn't we see them make that decision together.  What about the ramifications for each of them, they will be admitting to obstruction of justice at the very least.

Again, style over substance, which?  Pahfooie.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Umbelina

[slowpoked]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I kind of got that.  Bonnie was done with lies.  I don't think her intent was to hurt him, but simply to not drown in yet another lie.  As for her husband?  At least now he knows how his first wife felt, and really, maybe he will grow from that.  At heart, Bonnie was a very truthful person, and sometimes, truth does hurt, but in the end, it's better than lies.

In an earlier episode, wasn't Bonnie blaming her mother for essentially screwing up her outlook in romance and relationships? I remember she mentioned something like she ended up marrying a man she doesn't love because she doesn't know any other way (or something like that). 

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, Dminches said:

Rarely are people binary in the sense of being all good or all bad.  How can someone not feel sympathetic towards someone who has lost both her children?  Conversely, how can someone not hate someone trying to steal 2 young boys from their mother?  Both of those scenarios can co-exist.  

Yes, obviously that's true. My point is that they never figured out what role they wanted her to play in the narrative, and thus never clearly defined her motives, and that left everything about her story pretty muddled and lacking any clarity about her purpose in the show.

6 hours ago, peggy06 said:

The only major loose end, for me, was that Mary Louise thought one of them killed Perry, and she let that go. I thought that was her whole reason for the custody hearing, to force that out into the open. But they went a different route in the court scenes. 

Exactly. Why did Mary Louise come there? Was her original intention truly just to help?  Was there any point in time when she was genuinely on Celeste's side or was she always out to get her? Was she trying to prove her son was murdered? Did she want custody of her grandchildren to fill the void now that both her sons were gone? Did she intend to antagonize the entire Monterrey 5 because she suspected they murdered her son, or is she just an extremely unpleasant passive aggressive nightmare who verbally attacks everyone she meets? Did she actually care about being a grandmother to Ziggy, or did she just want to get at Jane? If she truly thought there was foul play involved in Perry's death, why did she drop that entirely to go after Celeste in family court instead?

We'll never know because none of her behavior adds up. Her character was just a chaos agent, running all over town being awful often for no discernible reason and with no real plan. I think if the writers had decided early on whether she was an antagonist or another lead we were supposed to empathize with, they could have defined all of this a lot better.

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

My impression was that Renata accidentally hit Gordon with the bat during her rampage.  I didn't get the impression we were supposed to think she was intentionally trying to beat him. 

Yes, it was clearly an accident that she hit him- he stepped in front of her swing, which was aimed for the next set of shelves. If she had continued hitting him after that, it would have been something else entirely, but she didn't.

[humbleopinion]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/entertainment/big-little-lies-season-3/index.html

 Gluttons for punishment.

[BlackberryJam]

Witnesses don't get to sit in a courtroom and listen to other witnesses testify. They are kept in the hallway waiting in misery until they are called. They can stay in the courtroom after. Children are not in the courtroom like that for a ruling from the bench in a custody action. 

I was most bothered by the fact that these women fell for Mary-Louise's manipulation every single time. She pushed a button and they reacted. Supposedly intelligent grown ass women fell for it every single time. Not one of them took a deep breath and shot back with a well-placed shot. Newp. It was always near hysterical outrage and shock. Because wimmins are always so emotional and can never control it. *barf*

[Umbelina]

Big Little Lies Season 2 Flubs the Landing  Of all the things they could have done with Big Little Lies Season 2, why would they do this?

Quote

"I Want to Know" is still a disappointing conclusion, an anticlimax at the end of a deteriorating season. In a major mismatch of style and plot, the camerawork strives to be indie-cinematic while the plot wallows in the theatrics of a courtroom drama on network TV.

Quote

Over the course of the season, the show obscured some of Celeste’s reckless behavior from its audience—then revealed it, all at once, during the courtroom scene. The bait-and-switch reads like a desperate effort to create excess drama—to scramble stakes that barely exist in the first place. The showdown between Celeste and Mary Louise similarly felt like a kind of season finale event, built so that a splashy promo can be cut out of it. 

Sadly, I think this is very true.

The rest of this article goes into convincing detail about the under use of Bonnie, and the avoidance of racial factors, and it's quite good.  They finish up speculating about the directors and that fiasco and the resulting disappointing waste/mess of a season.

[txhorns79]

19 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Exactly. Why did Mary Louise come there? Was her original intention truly just to help?  Was there any point in time when she was genuinely on Celeste's side or was she always out to get her? Was she trying to prove her son was murdered? Did she want custody of her grandchildren to fill the void now that both her sons were gone? Did she intend to antagonize the entire Monterrey 5 because she suspected they murdered her son, or is she just an extremely unpleasant passive aggressive nightmare who verbally attacks everyone she meets? Did she actually care about being a grandmother to Ziggy, or did she just want to get at Jane? If she truly thought there was foul play involved in Perry's death, why did she drop that entirely to go after Celeste in family court instead?

I presume Mary Louise came to help, but she became more suspicious as she heard the rumors about the Monterrey 5, and learned more about Celeste and Perry's relationship.  As to Celeste, some of her behavior was really erratic, and I can see how a third party would be extremely concerned by the Ambien induced blackouts and car accident.  That's some scary stuff.  That isn't to say that Mary Louise only had the best of intentions, just that I can see how she might have come there for a benign purpose, but the more she saw and heard, the more alarmed she became.     

[teddysmom]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Beyond being guilty of delaying/impeding the investigation, I would imagine none of them are going to be charged with murder.  Maybe manslaughter or a lesser charge?  But Bonnie was defending a person getting beaten up. She was intervening to assist someone first, not deliberately trying to kill the aggressor.  And if anyone with a grain of sense in the aftermath of the "push" thought about it, or obtained legal counsel LAST SEASON, we wouldn't have had to limp through this extraneous second season. 

California has a "defense of others" law, which would let Bonnie off the hook, she saw how big Perry is compared to Celeste and did not push him with intent to kill. Both she & Celeste would claim PTSD from the abuse they had suffered in regard to their reactions to Perry.  

Also, Celeste now has video proof of just one of the beatings she received, while her children watched.  

If the whole thing was ML trying to find out how Perry died, she sure gave up once it was proven in court on the record what a terrible person she was.

Note to Meryl Streep: ask to see script before agreeing to a project.  As brilliant as the entire cast was, they could barely pull this thing out of the toilet. 

[Melina22]

I loved, loved, loved this episode. It was sooooo good. All the actors were outstanding, particularly Zoe. I even liked Nicole. I loved the cinematography and the closeups. The last scene gave me goosebumps and tears. 

If anyone says anything bad about this episode, I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and go, "la, la, la." 

[freebie]

4 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

But the boys were only in court when the judge delivered her final decision. I'm not sure they talked about the evil that Perry had done since I thought the arguments had been wrapped up by then. Mary Louise and Celeste kept glancing at the boys and Mary Louise was careful with how she worded her little speech at the end. Moments like that were so real and wonderfully acted. 

Yes, as I said upthread after someone else mentioned it, I mixed up the two scenes. I'm going to edit my original post because my error seems to be low-hanging fruit. I think I've seen 3-4 comments in this vein already! 

Also, I disagree that ML did a good job editing her remarks. I found her comments about Celeste's "illness" and how Celeste was complicit in what happened to her to be totally inappropriate for 7-year olds to hear. ML isn't the one that's going to have to field all of the questions those kids will have! 

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It reminds me of when on shows like Law and Order SVU they show rape as a very serious and horrific crime on their case of the week (as they should) but will gleefully threaten their (always male) suspects or perps with prison rape as a joke. 

Yes!!! This probably is something I need to take to the TV Tropes I Hate thread, but I hate this particular trope so much, and see it all the time. Only used against male prisoners, never female. And as much as I loved this episode, Renata's violence was the one sour note for me. The cartoonish violence with the implication I was supposed to be laughing and cheering bothered me. 

[Mindthinkr]

2 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I guess that all came true, as she was driving to San Francisco.

True, but I don’t think that she thought that she would be banished from the boys life forever. After the court ruling Celeste asked her boys to do something for her. That something was to go over and hug their grandmother. I think ML realized that it wasn’t the end of her relationship with them, but her time in their city had come to a close. 

[Broderbits]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

The men on this show leave a lot to be desired, I knew Renata’s husband was an *sshole when he got involved with his wife’s issue with Jane that the women were handling fine alone.

I knew he would be an asshole when I saw he was being played by Jeffrey Nordling because the actor excels at playing that kind of man.

There is absolutely no way a person with Renata's brains and experience running a business would engage with ML and get played by her, especially this last time in the coffee shop. Those scenes, and the overuse of the "hysterical" scenes, just made her look ridiculous.

[Lemons]

10 hours ago, Blakeston said:

i really don't expect perfect legal accuracy from a David E. Kelley show, but come on.

Mary Louise was responsible for her child's death, and that never would have come up at all in this custody hearing if Celeste hadn't made a last-minute decision to question her on the stand?

It was a car accident from being distracted.  It happens all the time, people changing a radio station, looking at something on the sidewalk, talking to someone in the back.  

[txhorns79]

4 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

After the court ruling Celeste asked her boys to do something for her. That something was to go over and hug their grandmother. I think ML realized that it wasn’t the end of her relationship with them, but her time in their city had come to a close. 

I kind of viewed it as Celeste letting the kids tell their grandmother "good bye," with the idea that they likely wouldn't be seeing her for a long time. 

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yes, it was clearly an accident that she hit him- he stepped in front of her swing, which was aimed for the next set of shelves. If she had continued hitting him after that, it would have been something else entirely, but she didn't.

I can't conveniently rewatch atm but I'm sure you're right.

Yet I wonder why neither Renata nor Mr. Renata nor the story itself acted like she had crossed a line when she actually--inadvertently--hit him? Like "Oh my god, Mr. Renata, I'm so sorry!" 

(Also note that that unintended consequence of violence would fit perfectly with the more severe violence at the center of the story, Bonnie pushing Perry and that inadvertently killing him. Another missed opportunity...)

But I don't think the writer was that aware. I DO think that Renata batting Mr. Renata was intended as a "Go, girl!" moment.  And. that. ain't. right.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Penman61

[Melina22]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

I kind of viewed it as Celeste letting the kids tell their grandmother "good bye," with the idea that they likely wouldn't be seeing her for a long time. 

I guess we see everything through the prism of our own experience, but I saw it as Celeste acknowledging that despite Mary Louise's glaring faults, she was a grieving mother who really did love her grandsons, and Celeste sent her boys over to hug her, to give ML the comfort of knowing that the boys still loved her. Their doing it in front of everyone in the courtroom gave her some dignity, in the sense that she wasn't just slinking out alone and unloved. 

Whew. It's amazing how different viewers see different things in the same scene, depending on their own experiences. I'm sure this was true throughout this episode, which accounts for the wildly different reactions here. 

[Lady of nod]

16 hours ago, rangell said:

I agree. I am satisfied as well. 

I am not going to rip it apart, dissect every little detail that doesn’t match reality, I just enjoyed it at face value. 

And the music for the entire series, season 1 and 2 kicked ass!  

Peace out. ✌️

I enjoyed too! A lot! The acting was superb, the music was great. It may not have been as fabulous as season 1 but I looked forward to each episode.  It gave me everything I want in a show. 

And I would be happy to see a season 3. David Kelley says no, but Nicole says he said that after season one, so who knows.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Lemons said:

It was a car accident from being distracted.  It happens all the time, people changing a radio station, looking at something on the sidewalk, talking to someone in the back.  

ML was still responsible for her child's death.  You simply can't let yourself get distracted while driving, or you could kill somebody.  If this is too much responsibility for someone to bear, then they shouldn't drive.  Even if Perry "distracted" her he was still just a child.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ellaria]

The finale  - and S2 as a whole - is a great lesson of “quit while you are ahead.” IMO, this season did little to enhance the story told in S1. Not even Meryl Streep could save the lackluster, unimaginative story telling.

There were so many elements that did nothing but take up air time: Bonnie’s mother’s mysticism, the “gap year” debate, Ed and Nathan’s animosity, Tits McGee, the detective that seemed to lurk in corners, the ever present rushing waves, etc. 

Did we really need the reveal that Gordon screwed the nanny? We already knew that he was scum. I didn’t care that Bonnie didn’t love Nathan because I was never given a reason to care about them as a couple. Madeline and Ed’s vow renewal didn’t feel earned. 

The failure in this season lies in the writing, specifically in not having a cohesive story to tell. The acting was always going to provide great moments but even this cast couldn’t hide a poorly conceived reason for being. We may never know what was eliminated/changed once Andrea Arnold lost creative control. I can only hope that it was better than what was presented.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ellaria Sand

[Nordly Beaumont]

34 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

this season did little to enhance the story told in S1

This season had so little to do with S1 and was so generic, you could have hopped right into S2 without watching S1. I mean, they showed the flashback to Perry's death enough times, you'd get that he died, they lied, and that's all you need to know because so little about S2 was about that. Sure, they talked about it a couple of times, but aside from Celeste, (and Bonnie for about a minute) no one was shown dealing with the death or the lie. Renata and Maddie were dealing with marriage problems. Jane was dealing with her rape and trying to date. Bonnie was dealing with her mother. None of those things were born out of the lie. 

[slowpoked]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

ML was still responsible for her child's death.  You simply can't let yourself get distracted while driving, or you could kill somebody.  If this is too much responsibility for someone to bear, then they shouldn't drive.  Even if Perry "distracted" her he was still just a child.

Which Celeste excellently noted "Should I feel safe when my kids are in the backseat of your car while you are driving, and all of a sudden, you lost your temper?"

 

On 7/21/2019 at 10:14 PM, Blakeston said:

That big scene with Bonnie and Nathan would have been a lot more meaningful if we'd actually been shown them interacting for more than a few seconds throughout the entire series.

To which Bonnie would say "That's why there was no interaction between us...because there wasn't any love to begin with...at least on my end."

Nathan is a dolt, but I do feel bad for anyone being told they were never in love with you, just as you shared a significant part and time of your life with them. I guess it's the karmic equivalent on his end with how he just up and left Madeleine when Abby was basically a newborn. 

[izabella]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

ML was still responsible for her child's death.  You simply can't let yourself get distracted while driving, or you could kill somebody.  If this is too much responsibility for someone to bear, then they shouldn't drive.  Even if Perry "distracted" her he was still just a child.

Wait, I thought it was a lot more than she was distracted.  Didn't Celeste say ML lost her temper at the boys and that led to the crash?  Then Celeste said ML shifted blame to Perry for "distracting" her and that's why she crashed.  She didn't want to blame herself for being the cause of her son's death by losing her temper and crashing her car, so she blamed Perry for his brother's death.

This helps explain why ML was so adamant with the boys that they respect their mother that one time they were all in the car and the boys were acting up and not listening to Celeste. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by izabella

[Lemons]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

ML was still responsible for her child's death.  You simply can't let yourself get distracted while driving, or you could kill somebody.  If this is too much responsibility for someone to bear, then they shouldn't drive.  Even if Perry "distracted" her he was still just a child.

We would have exactly zero drivers on the road if no one has ever been distracted while driving.  A child starts screaming in the back seat and you turn around.  It wasn't Perry's fault or the mother's fault. 

They couldn't have it both ways.  Severe judgement on the mother in law and excuses for the mother.   Celeste shouldn't take Ambien because of the known side effects of sleep walking and driving (talk about distracted on the road).   Celeste should have been arrested for driving under the influence of drugs. 

 

3 hours ago, izabella said:

Wait, I thought it was a lot more than she was distracted.  Didn't Celeste say she ML lost her temper at the boys and that led to the crash?  Then Celeste said ML shifted blame to Perry for "distracting" her and that's why she crashed.  She didn't want to blame herself for being the cause of her son's death by losing her temper and crashing her car, so she blamed Perry for his brother's death.

This helps explain why ML was so adamant with the boys that they respect their mother that one time they were all in the car and the boys were acting up and not listening to Celeste. 

They did a shitty job on what exactly happened.  Plus they said Perry was five.  It would have been better if mother-law had been told to explain what happened.  

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, Lemons said:

They did a shitty job on what exactly happened.  Plus they said Perry was five.  It would have been better if mother-law had been told to explain what happened.  

What I took away from it all was that ML blamed Perry for his brother's death and told him, a 5 year old child, that he was to blame.  That was the heinous part of ML - the bad mother - not the distraction/losing her temper and car crash.

Edited July 23, 2019 by izabella

[Lemons]

Just now, izabella said:

What I took away from it all was that ML blamed Perry for his brother's death and told him, a 5 year old child that he was to blame.  That was the heinous part of ML - the bad mother - not the distraction/losing her temper and car crash.

Did that happen that way though?  That's why the mother-in-law's version should have been told.   It's interesting that Bonnie's mother abused her and Bonnie is all peace and love. 

I hated the way Celeste blamed the mother for Perry being an abuser.  Maybe but everyone loves to blame mother.  How will Celeste feel if her bully of a kid is damaged from her staying with an abuser for way too long.  I wonder if he was the one who videotaped the horrific beating of his mother and if so did he share it with his brother?