S03.E08: Chapter Eight: The Battle of Starcourt

[ghoulina]

13 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Absolutely.  Steve and Hopper were getting routinely pummeled to the point that I started looking away from the screen.  And aside from a little blood and some black eyes there were no repercussions from all this violence.  Those 2 should have suffered concussions and broken ribs at a minimum. 

Yes.  Although we've never seen any interactions between Joyce and El, Joyce should have opened her arms to her.  Which brings me to an important question:  Why is Joyce getting custody of El?   Financially she is in the worst place of the four families to take in an extra child.  Is this something Hopper would realistically even accounted for?  He was still trying to keep El's very existence a secret.

ETA: Totally agree about Star Wars, which is what I still call the first movie.

But we have seen interactions with Joyce and El. In season one, Joyce was the one holding El and comforting her during the sensory deprivation tank scene at the school. I found it to be one of the most touching scenes of the season. 

Even though they didn't have really any interactions after that (that we saw); I feel like they had an instant connection. And they definitely have shared trauma, now more than ever. 

[ruby24]

By the way, what is El's schooling situation? How is she being educated?

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I understand that Joyce is the realistic option, but this is 1985, not 1885.  You can't just say "We have an extra bed, you can sleep there."  There are legal custody considerations. Unless Joyce was savvy enough to talk to Dr Paul Reiser (who just happened to be in town) and get it taken care of.  

I think it's fair to assume Owens was involved, as he was before, but functionally I don't think legal custody considerations enter into it much.  The wider world doesn't really know Eleven exists, and if Joyce moves to another town where nobody knows her or her family, nobody would think anything about her having an adoptive child named Jane (or however they choose to explain it).

[Robert Lynch]

They better release next season soon because they would already be college age if the Duffer brothers do a year or two wait period. Noah Schnapps already towers over Ryder herself. Are they 6'1 or something?

Edited July 7, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[mrspidey]

On 7/5/2019 at 5:14 PM, domina89 said:

So the 80's movie references and homages were plentiful this season.  Day of the Dead, Jurassic Park (not really 80's but close enough), Terminator, Rambo, Neverending Story, Aliens, The Lost Boys (the shots of the fair reminded me of the Santa Carla boardwalk), Back to the Future, Red Dawn, Gremlins, and all the movies referenced by Steve and Robin during their interview at the video store.  Any more I missed?

ETA: I forgot Karate Kid!

The red alert klaxons in the russian base were the same as the ones on the Death Star. 

[Robert Lynch]

There is a Easter Egg this season. Dustin became a JC Penny mannequin in this show.

[Blue Plastic]

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

They better release next season soon because they would already be college age if the Duffer brothers do a year or two wait period. Noah Schnapps already towers over Ryder herself. Are they 6'1 or something?

I have a feeling Winona Ryder is pretty small/short.  She looked particularly tiny in the Russian uniform next to Hopper.  Wikipedia claims she is 5'3 so pretty petite.  But the boys do all look super long and gawky!  Such a change from where they were in season 1!  Yes, if they sleep on season 4 as long as they did on season 3, it's going to get ridiculous if they still want to sell the younger kids as being "children."

[MisterGlass]

Since Mike is going to visit them for Thanksgiving, the Byers are probably moving to a larger city in Indiana, like Fort Wayne or Indianapolis.  They could move up towards Chicago, and if so that could bring Kali back into the plot.

As far as caring for Eleven, it's possible that Hopper left a little money behind, in addition to his house and the property in the woods.  Jane is his legal heir, and if Dr. Owens was willing to help, they could probably have put Joyce in charge of the assets.  It wouldn't be much but it could be enough to help.  And I'm sure Jonathan's paycheck mostly goes to his mother.

[ch1]

This season is not a favorite of mine but one of the things I loved was the WTFness of everyone’s reactions to the Neverending Story interlude.  I especially loved the shot of everyone in the car with the Mind Flayer chasing them, especially Will and Steve.

The Byers moving was really sad.  I liked the shot of Joyce where it looked like she might have been doubting she was doing the right thing. 

Plus Noah Schnapp knows how to cry.  He had that ugly crying going on.

[OptimisticCynic]

With all the references to Back to the Future all season, I can’t help but theorize that Hopper isn’t dead but maybe that the machine acted as some sort of time machine. When he was writing the note it almost felt like he was writing to a future he knew might happen? If he was transported to another time in that space maybe that’s how he ends up in Russia. Just something I’ve been thinking about. 

[bettername2come]

19 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Seeing at how he treated Billy, it's no stretch to imagine that he was abusive to Max as well.  

This was my thought when Max started taking over treating El's leg. I don't think all her knowledge is from skateboard injuries.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Since Mike is going to visit them for Thanksgiving, the Byers are probably moving to a larger city in Indiana, like Fort Wayne or Indianapolis.  They could move up towards Chicago, and if so that could bring Kali back into the plot.

What melted my heart in the final scene was that the last beat-up box that Jonathon put in the U-Haul truck was from Marshall Field's 

[Littlebitofcheese]

Okay here's an early Season 4 plot twist and set up for you...

Dustin who is trying to talk with his GF long distance catch's another radio transmission ...SOS from Hopper to EL. He's alive but the Russians have got the gate open and learned to control it!

Scene shift to Suburban Chicago.... El has never got her powers back and has shifted into a normal kid..well as normal as one could be all things considered. Her and Mike have been on/off/on etc.

The gang tries desperately to make contact but can't....road trip! The boys have just got their drivers license and pool $ to get there.

So once El finds out she of course loses it and tries many things to get her mojo back. Q that episode everyone hated in season 2.... she goes to find #8 which see does. They remember the guy they killed saying that papa was still alive.

They race to find papa ( Matthew Modine) Back story Joyce goes ape and gets Jonathan and Nancy to come get her in hot pursuit of the others.

The boys driving on a big road trip would be pure entertainment in it's self. The story line could actually stretch into two seasons if set up correctly with Season 5 wrapping it all up in a bow. 

[secnarf]

Overall I liked this season more than season 3, but there were still things that were a bit off.

I didn't understand why closing the gate kills the Mind Flayer thing. Wasn't the point that it was trapped here? And it got trapped when El closed the gate the first time? So why does closing it a second time kill it? And I suppose that ties into wondering why (from an over-arching story perspective) the gate needed to be open in the first place?

I liked Robin but I agreed that they tried too hard to make her being gay into a big reveal and deliberately mislead the audience into thinking she was straight and into Steve. Her being gay was actually the only thing I was (accidentally) spoiled for, and watching some of the earlier scenes knowing that was jarring. Anyways, as someone who also had to reject a guy by coming out to him, Robin did it way less awkwardly than me. I should take notes.

I cried for Max. Maybe I am making this up, but I thought Billy was a bit protective of her, in the way that siblings sometimes are - nobody else can treat my sibling the way I treat them, and get away with it. I also thought he protected her from his father/her stepfather. Maybe I am totally making this up as I don't actually remember much of his scenes in season 2 other than an overarching feeling of dislike. But regardless, throughout the season, Max sold being worried for Billy, and I really felt for her as she watched him die.

I was really surprised that they killed Hopper, but I was also a bit disappointed with the whole American prisoner thing. Either it is Hop, which means they are pulling back from killing him and didn't have the guts to really go through with it, or it's just creating hope for the sake of stirring up drama. Not really a fan of either option. Not that I actually want Hop to be dead (although he and Joyce were getting on my last nerve), but I don't like they way they played it.

[mledawn]

The relationship between El and Hopper is my FAVOURITE and I was absolutely bawling at the end. I hope that's Hop in the prison, my heart can't take it.

[Marebear]

I really liked this season. Was it perfect? No, but it kept me engaged more than last season. 

One of the biggest issues I had was how easy it was for various members of the "good guys" to walk around the underground Russian lab, especially when it came to Robin, Steve, Dustin and Erica. 

Hopper allegedly dying had me bawling. He couldn't have gotten back up to Joyce before she turned the keys because when he tossed the Russian terminator in the machine it created an electric wall between Hopper and the stairs. I'm not convinced Hopper is dead but I don't think he's the American prisoner in Russia either. I think the prisoner is Dr. Brenner. 

Even he was a complete dick in season 2, I cried when El was describing the beach memory to Billy. I personally think Dacre Montgomery did a great job this season. You could tell that Billy was terrified of being controlled by the mind flayer. The sauna scene really conveyed that fear and remorse of the things he's done. El was able to give him peace before his death.

I'm looking forward to the next season.   

[Lies]

 

 

 

 

 

4

On 7/6/2019 at 5:10 PM, Smad said:

It seems like the only reason they killed him off is because they wanted Eleven out of Hawkins which wouldn't have happened if Hopper was alive. And that's frankly a dumb reason to kill a vital character like him off.

I'm not even sure if he's the American in Russia because it seems too obvious. It also makes no sense. How did he get there? It can't be the laser because that would be stupid (since everyone else exploded from it). So the only other way would be for him to be sucked or whatever into the Upside Down world. And I'm supposed to believe he traveled across the ocean or flew a plane from America to Russia, in the Upside Down and having absolutely no reason to make this journey to begin with? There is no way I would buy the American in Russia being Hopper. Much as I would love for him to still be alive. It would be much smarter to have him be sucked into the Upside Down and being stuck in there. I would love a S4 story of a character surviving inside the Upside Down for a prolonged time (however unlikely due to lack of food and water).

There is another theory that the American is actually Dr. Brenner and Hopper is alive but he is in the Upside Down. The last line in the speech to El of "keep your door open three inches" may have a deeper meaning and before he has the tearful look at Joyce he looks at the portal. He probably thought he has more chance of survival and that there was a chance of getting out (e.g. El's powers - unfortunately for him she's lost them) there then staying put where he'd be certainly dead. Unlike Will he's an adult and has survival skills so he may last longer.

On 7/6/2019 at 8:03 PM, Smad said:

Hard to leave behind a body when you evaporate. Watch the scene again, the Russian scientists in their red suits literally disintegrate from the blast of the laser exploding, leaving nothing behind. Hopper was even closer to the center than them.

Exactly. For me it's not that there's no body but rather that we didn't see him die. His death is implied, not shown (unlike the other major deaths such as Billy and Bob). After Joyce turns the switch, the screen goes black for a couple of seconds and then it focuses on the machine about to explode, where Hopper *should*have been standing but he is not. He's MIA. It's too obvious for this to be missed in the editing process. 

[Robert Lynch]

I hope Ryder sues the makeup artist for making her look gaudy. They just added 10 pounds of pancake makeup to her face, complete with rouge and dark lipstick. 

[DearEvette]

On 7/4/2019 at 11:53 PM, Enigma X said:

This whole season gave me anxiety, but I enjoyed it.

I also enjoyed all the characters, including Erica (but not Billy until the end).

I think last season gave me more actual anxiety while watching it only because Will being possessed and all and Noah Schnapp really being heartbreaking about it.

I liked this season better overall, but even with the Mindflayer, it felt a lot lighter than last season.

And yes, I enjoyed every character this season.  I even ended up liking Murray and Alexei (But not Billy).

On 7/5/2019 at 10:57 PM, mmecorday said:

I did NOT like the Terminator dude. It's OK to pay homage to 80s flicks, but not OK to copy a character outright. I'm glad he will not be back.

All the actors in this ensemble cast are top notch. Not a lazy performance in sight on this show.

I only had a few nitpicks this season, not many to dim my overall enjoyment, but this was the loudest and largest.  Hey, I like a good homage or reference, but I like it better when you have to think about it for a moment because it is a clever homage and not too obvious (Coming to America's nod to Trading Places remains of my favorites).  But this was too on the those nose, down to the casting of an actor who looked like Arnold and walked like the Terminator and who rode a motorcycle like him.

On 7/6/2019 at 12:20 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Ah man, I figured Billy would go out with redemption. It does still suck a bit. His character had potential and the show never reached it. Billy could have been interesting, but I guess it wasn't meant to be. It's a shame, since Dacre Montgomery did an amazing job with what he was given. I look forward to seeing what comes next of the actor.

I figured they try to redeem him somehow.  But, imo, the ruined Billy back in S2.  I could never invest in him or any possible character redemption arc because he was so flat in S2.  The show never gave us anything to hang on except a small, tiny little finger hook that he was abused by his father. But even so they never went under the surface at all with him he was just Dick #1 in the credits.  He had scenes with just him and Max and there was never any softening there.  It is nice and all that she is concerned and wrecked by his fate, but that says more about her humanity than it does about his.  Right now I see people trying to do their own head-wanking about stuff never shown on screen to justify Max's love for him. You shouldn't have to do that if a show does the redemption arc right.

Overall, I enjoyed this season.  S1 is still my favorite.  I do think in trying to keep their storylines separate until they converged, they went just a little too far.  It is weird that Jonathan and Will didn't even share a smidge of dialogue considering how close they were in S1&2 even Jonathan and Joyce.  Heck, even Nancy got to have a small heart-to-heart her mom. 

Also I wanted to know more about what the Russians had planned.  I admit I might have missed some explanation.  But what was the ultimate plan?  At least with Matthew Modine's character they were trying to create kids that control the thing, but the Russians were gonna open the gate and then what?

And finally, I think I got lost with the timeline.  From what I can gather, from episode 4 onward everything (starting with trapping Billy in the Sauna & Erica being recruited) happens in just one day.  Which, holy cow!

Don't know how I feel about the ending, need to process a bit more,  but I think it is right and proper that El ends up with the Byers and Joyce.

And finally a couple of other smallish things:

- My husband who does not watch the show saw the scene of Joyce and Will hugging at the mall and asked if it was set in Canada because apparently Noah Schnapp was pronouncing 'about' as 'aboot'.  I had to look him up and yeah, he is a dual Canadian citizen.

- That last shot of Hopper's ruined cabin just made me sad. 

- I liked that everyone got to listen in on Suzie and Dustin and get proof she was real and she was his GF.  Also, liked that Hopper was simply in go mode once he got the code.

- I liked the shot of the govt' helicopters arriving.  Very Stephen Spielbergian.

- Like how the fact that when the show decided to include Erica, they didn't just make her sassy little sister and that is all.  But also made her smart and good at math.  It is nice to include a little black girl nerd because there are a criminal dearth of that rep in tv shows and movies.  And having her be the recipient of Will's D&D stuff in a nod to her accepting the role.

Edited July 8, 2019 by DearEvette

[QuantumMechanic]

24 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Also I wanted to know more about what the Russians had planned.  I admit I might have missed some explanation.  But what was the ultimate plan?  At least with Matthew Modine's character they were trying to create kids that control the thing, but the Russians were gonna open the gate and then what?

I was wondering the same thing.  But then someone pointed out to me the demogorgon-sized cage under the mall (where Erica and Dustin picked up the zapper).  And of course we saw execution-by-demogorgon at the end.

So I think the Soviets (via spies in the Pentagon) got their hands on files about the portal and the Upside Down and the crap that lives in there and got it into their heads to capture some demogorgons and the like and use them against the capitalist imperialist pigs in the West.

Edited July 8, 2019 by QuantumMechanic

[EastCoast4Life]

There were a lot of great things about this season. I really enjoyed the main cast of actors, as I think they are all pretty talented. I also like how Billy had the choice to turn Karen (mom Wheeler) into one of the flayed, but just told her to stay away from him instead. 

Which brings me to... the major plot hole that has been driving me crazy since I finished season 3: No one in town missed the 30 (ish) people who turned into goo to become the mind flayer? Heather's entire family, all those people who left the carnival, multiple employees of the paper, etc, and there's nothing about what happened to them all?!? It doesn't seem likely that we get a "three months later" update, and there is nothing said about the multiple missing people from a small town. People would notice!

When they strangled the original Russian scientist at the beginning, he told the next scientist that he had a year to figure it out. Are you telling me they built that huge underground Russian lair and elevator in less than a year? 

[Dev F]

19 minutes ago, EastCoast4Life said:

Which brings me to... the major plot hole that has been driving me crazy since I finished season 3: No one in town missed the 30 (ish) people who turned into goo to become the mind flayer? Heather's entire family, all those people who left the carnival, multiple employees of the paper, etc, and there's nothing about what happened to them all?!?

I think the implication of the "THIRTY DEAD" newspaper headline at the end of the episode is that Dr. Owens and company created a cover story about how all the flayed residents died in the supposed mall fire.

[clack]

Season as a whole I found to be too comedically broad and silly, though the finale was gripping and redeemed S3.

Other impressions :

--Erica was obnoxiously sassy, but she at least was given a personality, unlike Lucas.

--Jonathan has been totally out-shone by his onetime rival Steve in the personality department. In fact, Steve is now the de facto lead character of the series, more so than even El or Hopper.

--Noah Schnapp is the best of the kid actors, and needs a larger role next season.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, EastCoast4Life said:

Which brings me to... the major plot hole that has been driving me crazy since I finished season 3: No one in town missed the 30 (ish) people who turned into goo to become the mind flayer? Heather's entire family, all those people who left the carnival, multiple employees of the paper, etc, and there's nothing about what happened to them all?!? It doesn't seem likely that we get a "three months later" update, and there is nothing said about the multiple missing people from a small town. People would notice!

The news reports regarding the mall disaster about the 30 dead indicates that the government covered it up and said that the deaths were attributed to that.

20 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

They better release next season soon because they would already be college age if the Duffer brothers do a year or two wait period. Noah Schnapps already towers over Ryder herself. Are they 6'1 or something?

Noah is actually the least-challenging actor in that regard; he's the same age as his character right now, roughly.  The "kid" actors are divided into two age categories:

2002 births (all 16/17 now):  Caleb, Sadie, Finn, Gaten

2004 births (all 14/15 now):  Millie, Noah

The characters are all implicitly the same age as Eleven, who was born in 1971, so they're 14-ish as of Season 3, set in 1985.

I'll be interested to see if subsequent seasons jump a bit further ahead; there's no real narrative reason for them to be wedded to yearly time-skips, especially as the series' renewal/production cycle doesn't really seem to accord with annual releases.  Plus, with the talk of two more seasons, that would allow them to cover the rest of the 1980s.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Also why does Winona look so frail and crazy eyed? Bless her heart but she looks like a 60+ year old with a bad wig.

I didn't mind it, actually. It's the mileage more than the years. She's working a crappy job in Hawkins, Indiana, a single mom with two kids. One of her kids disappeared and her boyfriend was killed. She's been through it.

Her aging look reminded me of the mom of the little boy in Jaws. The one who was killed. Her kid was ten when he was eaten by the shark, but she looked to be in her sixties. (I just caught some of Jaws since a few channels were playing it to time with the July 4th long weekend)

Add me to the people hoping Hopper is in the Soviet prison. And I don't even mind that Joyce is moving the kids... after the disappearance/death of so many in such a small town, who wouldnt hightail it elsewhere?

[bettername2come]

16 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

And I don't even mind that Joyce is moving the kids... after the disappearance/death of so many in such a small town, who wouldnt hightail it elsewhere?

Plus, in a new place, especially if it’s a larger city, it’s probably a lot safer for El to be seen in public. Keeping El at Joyce’s in Hawkins is probably more difficult.

[questionfear]

Hopper was a cop, and he had legal paperwork adopting "Jane Hopper". Hawkins might be a small town, but he knew his job had risks, and it would have made complete sense to leave instructions for Joyce to take El in if anything ever happened to Hop. Joyce knows the whole background, Hopper is close to her, and they can't send El to her family because that would bring attention to her from the bad guys who might want to try to exploit her powers. That was incredibly realistic, and it wouldn't shock me if they retconned next season that Dr Paul Reiser built that contingent custody into the whole forged adoption.

As far as Robin goes, here's my take as someone who came out as a lesbian in the late 90s: I thought her storyline and coming out were pitch perfect. She never said she was romantically obsessed with Steve, just that she always noticed him. And that fits, because I could have had the same conversation with some of the jocks in my school. I didn't want them...I wanted to be them, in that they were popular and could date hot girls.

It also fits with the doublespeak a lot of gay kids use to fly under the radar...it makes you sound like everyone else, but if someone stops and actually listens, you see that there's some subtle dodging of specifics and careful structuring that assumes heterosexuality. Her whole thing about her crush staring at Steve and her wishing the crush looked at Robin that way...it was heartbreaking and so, so true to life. It also fit with her character arc that she didn't say anything until they were under the influence of the Russian drug AND they were safe-ish in the bathroom. She's not going to lead with that when she can't trust Steve at first, and even when she comes out it's clear she's nervous as hell. 

[TwoBitUsherette]

1 hour ago, clack said:

--Jonathan has been totally out-shone by his onetime rival Steve in the personality department. In fact, Steve is now the de facto lead character of the series, more so than even El or Hopper.

I find the decline of Jonathan to be really interesting. I'm not sure if it's a failure of the writing or of the actor or a combination of the two. And I'm sure Steve's rapid ascent to fan favorite hasn't helped.

Jonathan was such a vital part of season one, but ever since then he's felt less and less important to the show. This season in particular, the only thing that seemed to keep him hanging on was Nancy. What's weird is I continue to root for Nancy and want to see her integrated into the cast better, but I've lost almost all interest in Jonathan.

Maybe the Byers moving will be a chance to get the character back to the only place I think he really shined - with his family. I saw a brief interview with Charlie Heaton from the premiere and he mentioned that next season he hopes to work more with Winona and I agree with him.

[clack]

Season 1 Jonathan was sensitive, alienated, a loner, a bit of a stalker. 

Season 3 Jonathan is what? A nice guy, and that's pretty much it.

[ch1]

2 hours ago, TwoBitUsherette said:

I find the decline of Jonathan to be really interesting. I'm not sure if it's a failure of the writing or of the actor or a combination of the two. And I'm sure Steve's rapid ascent to fan favorite hasn't helped.

Jonathan was such a vital part of season one, but ever since then he's felt less and less important to the show. This season in particular, the only thing that seemed to keep him hanging on was Nancy. What's weird is I continue to root for Nancy and want to see her integrated into the cast better, but I've lost almost all interest in Jonathan.

Maybe the Byers moving will be a chance to get the character back to the only place I think he really shined - with his family. I saw a brief interview with Charlie Heaton from the premiere and he mentioned that next season he hopes to work more with Winona and I agree with him.

I agree with him too. My favorite thing about this show is the Byers family.  

The complete lack of interaction between Will and Jonathan really bothered me.  They were in scenes together and just shared space.  Between that and no meaningful scenes with El and Will I really don’t know what the writers were thinking.  

[iMonrey]

Well that will teach me to turn the channel when the closing credits start because I had no idea there were any additional scenes. I did think it was weird that we didn't get the usual season-ending cliffhanger so I wondered if maybe this was the last season.

If I had to guess I'd say the show was hedging its bets against the availability of David Harbour. They might have been worried he'd be too busy with the Hellboy franchise to do futures seasons. I don't think that's going to happen now.

Overall I enjoyed it except the ending (if Hopper is indeed dead). I understand why Joyce wants to move away but after losing Hopper, separating El from Mike seems doubly cruel.

My main critique is that during all of the intense action and running around in a potential doomsday scenario, characters kept stopping to have long conversations with each other about their feelings. I found that tedious and indulgent.

Quote

Also, there was just too much physical violence. Hopper constantly getting into fights, the number of times the kids would be flung into a wall or across a room was just too much.

I agree with this as well. I realize there's a healthy appetite for that for many an audience but I find lengthy, choreographed fight scenes annoying and pandering.

Quote

I thought it was interesting that Will was admonished for not liking girls, but it was in the context of not growing up as fast as the others. I'm wondering if they're going to make more of that. 

That exchange stopped me in my tracks. I couldn't figure out if they were implying that Will was gay or if he simply hadn't matured into liking girls yet. 

Quote

I didn't understand why closing the gate kills the Mind Flayer thing. Wasn't the point that it was trapped here? And it got trapped when El closed the gate the first time? So why does closing it a second time kill it? And I suppose that ties into wondering why (from an over-arching story perspective) the gate needed to be open in the first place?

I think I know the answer to that. It wasn't until the Russians re-opened the gate that the Mind Flayer was reconstituted - we saw it re-assemble from fragments in that warehouse. So even though it had been trapped in our dimension it disintegrated once the gate was closed last season. Re-opening the gate reconstituted it. 

[Dev F]

20 minutes ago, ch1 said:

The complete lack of interaction between Will and Jonathan really bothered me.  They were in scenes together and just shared space.  Between that and no meaningful scenes with El and Will I really don’t know what the writers were thinking.  

I wonder if they were too self-consciously writing with their future plans in mind. Maybe they've mapped it out so that Will/El and Will/Jonathan will play a major part in season 4, now that El and the Byerses are off on their own as a new family unit, and they didn't want to jump the gun on any of that this season.

[QuantumMechanic]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think I know the answer to that. It wasn't until the Russians re-opened the gate that the Mind Flayer was reconstituted - we saw it re-assemble from fragments in that warehouse. So even though it had been trapped in our dimension it disintegrated once the gate was closed last season. Re-opening the gate reconstituted it. 

I like that.  Do we know when the Russians opened the gate under the mall? I vaguely recall (before we were shown the mall gun opening the gate) some Russian saying something that pretty clearly indicated the gate was open, but can't remember what episode that was in.

But hmmmmmm.  The flayer was already collecting rats in the first episode (and got Billy at the end of the first as well, right?  It all blurs together 🙂 ).  If so, I don't know if your theory will hold up.  Any reason to believe the gate was open that early?

Edited July 8, 2019 by QuantumMechanic

[Perfect Xero]

On 7/6/2019 at 4:58 PM, MissL said:

and while I understand Max not wanting Billy to die because she is a good person based on what we SAW of their relationship the extreme sad emotion from her when he died didn’t seem to fit. Maybe if we ever saw kindness in the midst of his torture of her we’d get it but nothing.

It was rather odd, I'm pretty sure that if someone watched Season 3 without having seen Season 2 they would come away from it thinking that Billy and Max have a pretty normal brother/sister relationship where he's kind of a jerk and she thinks he's gross because he always has girls in his room. Even before she knows that Billy is in peril from the Mindflayer Max seems protective of him.

From what I gathered I got the impression that the story they were going for is that Season 2 was supposed to be Billy at his absolute worst after whatever triggered the move to Hawkins. Max has a line in Season 2 to the effect of "Billy's always been a jerk, but now he's just angry all the time." After Max drugged and threatened him in the S2 finale he got humbled a bit and reverted back to pre-Hawkins levels instead of the terror he was in S2, which they sort of show at the end of S2 when he looks in on Max getting ready for the dance.

They probably should have done more to show this, via memories/flashbacks or a scene at the begging of the season, or, uh, just writing him with a few more layers last season.

[wingster55]

8 hours ago, clack said:

Jonathan has been totally out-shone by his onetime rival Steve in the personality department. In fact, Steve is now the de facto lead character of the series, more so than even El or Hopper.

I'm curious about this...I like Steve but I would never consider him the lead. Did he have a plot this season? The Russian investigation really didn't go anywhere after the first few episodes.

 I don't really know how I would label his personality to be honest...he doesn't seem to be a big movie fan, no ambition or interests. All the other kids except El for obvious reasons (including Nancy and Jonathan) have some interest or unique personality...science, skateboarding, journalism, photography etc. What does Steve like to do in his free time?

Edited July 9, 2019 by wingster55

[Sakura12]

With the whole Billy and Max thing maybe they should thrown in a good memory of them when El was in his mind to show us any kind of connection. I get that she'd be upset that he died but her reaction was bigger then it deserved from what we saw on screen. 

[Blue Plastic]

14 hours ago, Lies said:

There is another theory that the American is actually Dr. Brenner and Hopper is alive but he is in the Upside Down. The last line in the speech to El of "keep your door open three inches" may have a deeper meaning and before he has the tearful look at Joyce he looks at the portal. He probably thought he has more chance of survival and that there was a chance of getting out (e.g. El's powers - unfortunately for him she's lost them) there then staying put where he'd be certainly dead. Unlike Will he's an adult and has survival skills so he may last longer.

If this is the case, then he should have indicated to Joyce that he was planning to jump into the Upside Down rather than get incinerated.  Then he'd at least have people looking for him and trying to get to him.  Maybe Paul Reiser's character could help!  I know they didn't show that because they wanted fans to wonder if he's dead, in a Russian prison, in the UD, or what, but seriously why go somewhere that's really difficult to escape from without telling anyone?

[Nordly Beaumont]

13 hours ago, EastCoast4Life said:

Which brings me to... the major plot hole that has been driving me crazy since I finished season 3: No one in town missed the 30 (ish) people who turned into goo to become the mind flayer?

This is a town where only a little girl on a ferris wheel (plus our heroes) noticed a gigantic monster running around! I guess every single person was at the carnival?

Alexi said when the keys are turned be no where near, people are turned to dust. If Hopper is alive, I will stand and say in my very best Annie Wilkes voice "Do you all have amnesia? He didn't get out of the cockadoodie car!

I liked Hopper, but I think it would be a total cheat (plus a waste of my tears) if he survived. 

[Robert Lynch]

If Ryder had the Beetleguise sequel all set, they could have worked around David Harbour's schedule with the Hellboy franchise, but now Hellboy is a flop. Why pull that crap all of a sudden? 

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

I know they didn't show that because they wanted fans to wonder if he's dead, in a Russian prison, in the UD, or what, but seriously why go somewhere that's really difficult to escape from without telling anyone? 

Not just difficult to escape. Difficult to survive in. And I'm not talking about the monsters because I'm sure Hopper could find a way to deal with them (up to a point). But there is no food or water in the UD as far as we know so Hopper would be dead in a week or so from hunger/thirst.

[Ravenya003]

I'll give em this: the Duffer Brothers know how to do a finale.

In all, this was a solid, exciting, amusing season of entertainment, very much like an eight-hour movie in its three-act structure with very little flab. There were a couple of loose ends (why were the Flayed eating chemicals? And what was the green goo in the Russian compound? Did Nancy ever write up the story for another newspaper?) a few characters/dynamics that were neglected (poor Jonathan; even his big moment in doing impromptu surgery was a failure) and a lack of proper closure (we really needed to see the community grieving for the missing Flayed - let's not forget there was a little boy among them - , not to mention the reaction of Billy's father to his son's death) but hey - it was all good.

That said, I wasn't quite as captivated with season three as I was the previous two. On reflection, I think it's because there was no obvious main character or key relationship. The first two seasons it was Eleven/Mike and then Eleven/Hopper. Here the most important dynamics were Eleven/Mike/Max, Hopper/Joyce and Steve/Robin, with everyone else spread a little thinly across the plate.

So for the first time in the show's progression, this was truly an ensemble piece - and yet without a protagonist it did feel a little center-less. As such, I was never truly moved in the way I have been previously: Mike and Eleven's emotional reunion after a year apart is still the highest bar the show has set for itself. 

Other observations:

For the comments on Winona's frumpy appearance: I have no doubt that she'll get to glam up when she and Hopper finally get to Enzo's. What's an eighties-based TV show without a female lead getting the "beautiful all along" transformation scene? 

I didn't quite buy the calmness with which Mike and Eleven allowed themselves to be separated. Yes, a big theme of this season was growing up, and yes, the two needed to be less co-dependent, but after everything they've been through and the times they've been forcibly apart, they would NOT have handled this well. As Murray said: shared trauma. 

That said, I'm interested in seeing Will and Jonathan as brothers to Eleven. Will/El is a dynamic I was looking forward to this season, and didn't get much of, even though they have so much in common.

Nice of the air ducts to magically expand themselves to accommodate Murray when it was a big plot-point that only a child Erica's size could fit (okay, so Erica's ducts were in the ceiling and Murray's were in the floor, so maybe that accounted for the difference. BUT STILL).

The Mayor was a bit of a pointless character; largely there to get Cary Elwes in the cast - but hey, I said the same thing about Billy last season, so maybe he'll be back next time.

I have no real opinion over the Robin/Steve not!ship, only that it clears the way for the potential ship I'm really interested in: Steve/Kali. DON'T roll your eyes. Just THINK about it for a minute...

On that note, I hope that season four really expands itself outside of Hawkins. Obviously we're not done with the Russia plot yet, the Byers have relocated, and it strikes me as interesting that no one visited the Upside Down this season. More than this, I want to know more about El's childhood, her mother, the government facility and the other subjects there. She's Eleven and Kali is Eight, that leaves at least nine other lost brothers and sisters...

Edited July 9, 2019 by Ravenya003

[Robert Lynch]

I like Cary Elwes as much as the next person, but his character was the stereotypical modern day Trump. I just hope they quit this trope because you see it everyday on shows like this. I am getting tired of this formula already. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[clack]

13 hours ago, wingster55 said:

I'm curious about this...I like Steve but I would never consider him the lead. Did he have a plot this season? The Russian investigation really didn't go anywhere after the first few episodes.

 I don't really know how I would label his personality to be honest...he doesn't seem to be a big movie fan, no ambition or interests. All the other kids except El for obvious reasons (including Nancy and Jonathan) have some interest or unique personality...science, skateboarding, journalism, photography etc. What does Steve like to do in his free time?

Steve and Dustin are, at this point,  the "stars", the most entertaining characters.

Mike and Jonathan have become drips.

Over-protective, angry dad is not a good look for any character, so that made Hopper less fun this season.

Lucas had no personality this go around. Even El seemed a bit drab.

[QuantumMechanic]

6 hours ago, Smad said:

Not just difficult to escape. Difficult to survive in. And I'm not talking about the monsters because I'm sure Hopper could find a way to deal with them (up to a point). But there is no food or water in the UD as far as we know so Hopper would be dead in a week or so from hunger/thirst.

Plus, isn't even the air toxic over there?

6 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

In all, this was a solid, exciting, amusing season of entertainment, very much like an eight-hour movie in its three-act structure with very little flab. There were a couple of loose ends (why were the Flayed eating chemicals? And what was the green goo in the Russian compound?

The green goo powers the gun.  There was a scene where you could see workers inserting the canisters of green goo into the sides of the gun.

As for the fertilizer/chemicals/etc., I assume that was to make it possible for the Mind Flayer to goo-ify/ungoo-ify the rats and people.

[Avaleigh]

On 7/5/2019 at 6:25 PM, krankydoodle said:

No. And I don't think Jonathan really interacted with Joyce either during this episode, which was odd.

Erica was delightful in small doses last season, but they used her so much here that she got irritating. She earned some points back, though, when she cut off Dustin's lovey-dovey exchange with Suzie. And I enjoyed the Neverending Story duet, but thought it went on too long and killed some of the momentum. It might've been worth it to see Hopper's reaction, though.

I liked Erica fine last season but found her to be VERY annoying this season. She just couldn't let up. I don't think I've been more irritated with a little sister character since Dawn on Buffy. It seems like her character worked for most people this season, but I personally found her to be grating and almost insultingly stereotypical. Gah, she even gets rude with people for saying her name. 

I definitely missed having Dustin be part of the gang but I didn't mind seeing Elle and Max having some girl time.

As someone who worked for a mom and pop video store in high school I loved that this will be a new art time job for two of the teens. 

This show is so reliable. The episodes just flew by. I can't wait for next season. 

I love the suggestion of the show being revisited when the child characters are adults like in IT. I would watch the hell out of that.

[questionfear]

32 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

As for the fertilizer/chemicals/etc., I assume that was to make it possible for the Mind Flayer to goo-ify/ungoo-ify the rats and people.

I thought so too. Also, it made for a huge freaking clue that the Flayed weren't going to be saved. It's one thing to see someone get a face full of tentacle, but the human body generally doesn't survive chugging ammonia very well. I was all set to call bullshit if they destroyed the Mind Flayer and all the Flayed were back to normal, so as horrific as that was, I'm glad people didn't miraculously recover from chugging ammonia. 

[Robert Lynch]

40 minutes ago, clack said:

Steve and Dustin are, at this point,  the "stars", the most entertaining characters.

Mike and Jonathan have become drips.

Over-protective, angry dad is not a good look for any character, so that made Hopper less fun this season.

Lucas had no personality this go around. Even El seemed a bit drab.

That is what happens when a teen actor peaks at 17 or 15. They no longer are invested in their characters and it becomes a chore all of a sudden. Take a good at Modern Family. Out of all teen actors that passed awkward phrases in later teens, River Phoenix, Fred Savage, and Jason Bateman were the only ones that achieved that obstacle. I am not sure how Finn will do after Stranger Things since he has so much on his plate: his band and other film projects on his lap. Either way, I wish him luck.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Steve and Dustin are, at this point,  the "stars", the most entertaining characters.

Mike and Jonathan have become drips.

Over-protective, angry dad is not a good look for any character, so that made Hopper less fun this season.

Lucas had no personality this go around. Even El seemed a bit drab.

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

That is what happens when a teen actor peaks at 17 or 15. They no longer are invested in their characters and it becomes a chore all of a sudden. Take a good at Modern Family. Out of all teen actors that passed awkward phrases in later teens, River Phoenix, Fred Savage, and Jason Bateman were the only ones that achieved that obstacle. I am not sure how Finn will do after Stranger Things since he has so much on his plate: his band and other film projects on his lap. Either way, I wish him luck.

I have to disagree at that point. The actors are invested but the characters are just living easier lives. El is completely different in personality to Millie Bobby Brown. She still seems this mix of both innocence at the world and naivete in social interaction but shows incredible power and strength in the heroic moments. She's not in danger from the lab. Lucas now is the guy in the relationship giving out advice. I'll take that over the first season where he was a total asshole to El or season 2 with fighting with Dustin over Max and the threat of Billy hanging over him.

My feeling is characters change and develop and complete their "arcs" sooner than others. That's what happens in life. The truth is as much as we love characters on TV shows and movies and say we want to see them happy, happy, content characters are boring.  Fans complain "Why can't the writers let our faves be happy?" Well because you wouldn't give a shit about them anymore. I remember a lot of Office fans stopped caring about Pam once she finally married Jim. Even hating that her hair and clothes were better. It's only when her marriage seemed to be in trouble in the last season suddenly were back on the Pam train "Oh my god, poor Pam! What's going to happen?"

Edited July 9, 2019 by VCRTracking

[clack]

Lucas and Max are in an interracial relationship. How would that go over in mid-80's Indiana? Has Billy reconciled himself to it?

I get that, tonally, the show didn't want to invest too heavily in a racism theme, but if they just touched on it lightly and briefly we could have had an arc for Lucas, and some occasions for Max and Billy to interact, which this season was notably lacking.

Edited July 10, 2019 by clack

[larapu2000]

On 7/6/2019 at 8:42 PM, ganesh said:

I also liked how the fireworks plan worked too. I hope Nancy gets to work at the paper since they're all basically dead now. 

I don't know why this made me laugh so much, but it did.

Isn't Nancy going to college in the fall?  Wasn't the paper just a summer internship?  Jonathan kept yelling "internship" at her when she got fired (and he got himself fired and then blamed it on her, he is SUCH A BORING DOUCHE).