S05.E03: Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too

[TheOtherOne]

A lonely teen becomes obsessed with a robot doll based on her pop star idol, Ashley O -- just as the real Ashley's life begins to unravel.

[MrsR]

As Ashley O/Too would say, Fuck yeah.

Not the most disturbing of episodes but a lovely ode to sisterhood.

Fun.  

[marinw]

Miley Cyrus singing a Nine Inch Nails song was perfect.

[Miles]

This could have gone wrong at so many turns. I like that Charlie Brooker has turned over a new leaf and is giving us happy endings now. Only 33.3% bad endings this season and even that one was not that bad for black mirror standards. There are far worse things than death on this show.

What's interesting is that even in a short three episode season, he couldn't not make an episode about brain copying. That seems to be very much on his mind.

The restyled Ashley Too at the end was adoreable!

Miley Cyrus really isn't a bad actress at all. I would say I'm surprised, but really she was great on SNL, so I'm not thaaat surprised.

[braziliangirl]

you know what?  In the end is real contact with others - and music - that saves the day. Real life has been tough enough. I'll take it this very hopeful Black Mirror episode.

Edited June 6, 2019 by braziliangirl

[Zima]

Whenever an episode has American actors, I know that there will be a happy ending, and I HATE IT.

[Cranberry]

That was a lot of fun. I loved how Rachel just couldn't resist telling every version of Ashley that she was such a huge fan. Also loved the two Ashley O fans getting jostled around and fleeing the club in horror at the end of the episode while Rachel slowly acclimated to the new sound and the Ashley Too doll (with her anarchy sticker!) rocked out. I loved Jack, too. She was abrasive, but hey, the kid lost her mom, and she clearly cared about her little sister. Maybe it was pat, but I liked that she ended up on lead guitar at the end.

I don't mind the happy endings sometimes, and this was one of those times.

[Princess Sparkle]

12 hours ago, Zima said:

Whenever an episode has American actors, I know that there will be a happy ending, and I HATE IT.

I'm a little worried you consider the end of Playtest a happy ending LOL

[meatball77]

This was like a disney channel movie with a twist.

[Amarsir]

Miley Cyrus was great casting. No surprise she pulled off the singing and acting well, but having a former child star just adds a whole extra layer.

They maybe went a little more comedic than was necessary but on the whole it was a good watch. I noticed that IMDB ratings so far put it as the weakest of the 3 but I don't agree.

[tennisgurl]

I am weirdly into this darker and edgier Hannah Montana reboot. 

Miley Cyrus was really great casting here, I thought she did really well with both the singing and the acting, both voice over and in person, and the reality subtext of Miley Cyrus's own career just adds so much to the character and story. I do wonder if Billy Ray was watching this wondering if he should really check in with Miley and make sure everything is alright. 

I admit that as much as I enjoy the dark and horrifying Black Mirror episodes, I dont mind a happy ending every once in while. It keeps the story from getting predictable as the show goes on. 

I loved the growing relationship between the sisters, and the ending with Ashley O and Jack in a band, Rachel getting used to the new sound, their dad trying to sell his better mouse trap, and the very confused Ashley O fans in the mosh-pit. But the real highlight was the Ashley Too with her Anarchy sticker and one streak of black pen color in her pink hair. Too cute!

[DrSpaceman]

This one was low rated on IMDB and critics, but I kind of liked it. 

It did take a weird turn halfway through where it become more Disney movie than Black Mirror, but still enjoyed it. 

Its funny the real Ashley was basically like the sister, Jack, rather than Ashley, her huge fan. 

I liked the line from Ashley too, "So you only like music your mom liked"  Really struck a nerve there.  "Ashley, go to sleep". 

Reminded me of the old Telly Savalas Twilight Zone episode with the doll for awhile, like a 21st century version of it.  Of course turned out different

And that then always makes me think of the SImpsons Treehouse of Horror with the Krusty doll and one of the best lines every from the Homer "Marge!!!  The doll's trying to kill me and the toasters been laughing at me!!!"

[Chaos Theory]

I think the point of the story is that the people we see and get attached to on tv aren’t real people and often our anger when they disappoint us get amplified because of it.   

Rachel was ultimately able to see past her admiration for Ashlee while her other fans at the end weren’t and got freaked out  at the punk rock version of her.    These are The fans that type cast actors and artists and don’t let them move on.

I recognized the actress who played Jack but couldn’t figure out where.    I checked  her IMDB page and she played Ethel on Shameless and does a lot of one offs on tv shows I watch.    So that’s probably it.

[benteen]

I was expecting this episode to  be a train wreck but ended up enjoying it.  The whole brain copying new songs thing was ridiculous even for Black Mirror but when you start looking at it like Black Mirror's version of a Disney Channel movie, it kind of works.

I thought the real standout was Madison Davenport as Jack.  I really appreciated how they portrayed her relationship with her younger sister.  They were opposites and Rachel annoyed her but you know she cared for her when she reminded the father when her birthday was and didn't get rid of the Ashley Too doll.  Her performance was impressive, engaging and likeable.

The Miley-version of the Ashley Too doll was pretty amusing.  I thought though that the Rachel character got lost in the shuffle at the end.  We don't really see the kind of resolution for her like we do with Jack and Ashley.  I admit, I was cringing when she was at the talent show because I knew it would go bad for her.

Edited June 7, 2019 by benteen

[tennisgurl]

Its funny that we just had to get a story with the Cookies in it, even if its used different than what we have seen before. Charlie Brooker really seems to be fascinated by uploading a person into different stuff and what that means, and he is apparently really creeped out by the idea. At this the Ashley Too cookie has a happier ending than most cookies tend to do, even if it is pretty creepy that apparently every one of the Ashley Toos are basically lobotomized Ashley Os that are semi aware of how limited their thinking is and are trapped in this Disney princess version of herself that she hates. I guess its good that the rest were destroyed than. 

I thought that the Black Mirror twist would be that Ashley O would die, with Ashley Too stuck somewhere as her robot self, and the aunt would find Rachel as she tried to rescue Ashley, ans convince her to be the next big star, as the aunt was saying how they needed to find someone else as soon as Ashley was brain dead, and it would end with her starting to feed Rachel the pills and she introduces her as the new Ashley O. 

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think the point of the story is that the people we see and get attached to on tv aren’t real people and often our anger when they disappoint us get amplified because of it.   

That's probably one of the points. One of the others (IMO) is the ethical nature of using a person's image after death. Obviously in this sense it was horribly unethical, since Aunt Catherine was cartoon step-mother villainous. 

But more to the world we live in, stuff like using Peter Cushing's image in the movie Rogue One, or having Tupac appear on stage at Coachella as a hologram. Sure the owners of their estates can sign off on it, but would they have really wanted it? After all Catherine (despite her cartoonish step-mother villainy) is Ashley O's next of kin and probably would've been the heir to her belongings if she were to die. When you inherit a famous person's work, do you actually own their image and can you make said image do whatever you want?

Side note: The Bubblegum Pop version of Head like a Hole has been stuck in my head since I watched this episode. I'm super pleased Nine Inch Nails was ok with Black Mirror Bubblefying their song. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Momzilla38]

I guess I am in the minority on this one.  I found it cartoonish (others have referred to it as a Disney movie - that is also a good description!) and very predictable. For me, it didn’t work, the whole reason I watch Black Mirror is to avoid cartoonish typecast characters and predictable storylines, hmmm...irony in play perhaps 😉.  In fact, I felt the same about all 3 episodes.  Hoping for a better season 6!

[Duke2801]

2 hours ago, Momzilla38 said:

I guess I am in the minority on this one.  I found it cartoonish (others have referred to it as a Disney movie - that is also a good description!) and very predictable. For me, it didn’t work, the whole reason I watch Black Mirror is to avoid cartoonish typecast characters and predictable storylines, hmmm...irony in play perhaps 😉.  In fact, I felt the same about all 3 episodes.  Hoping for a better season 6!

Whew I was starting to think I was the only one who didn’t care for this one. It just didn’t work for me. Too silly and ... twee/corny. Oh well, I guess they can’t all be winners. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I liked this episode up until Ashley, Too came to life, and then it took a turn that was a bit too comedic for my liking. It wasn't awful, and I think there were some interesting things to say about digital recreations of living or formerly living people (see also: Star Wars), and the value of human life and creative content, but I felt they got somewhat lost under a humorous turn.

(I also thought Ashley, too had a more obnoxious "real" personality than Ashley O did.)

[cmfran]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its funny that we just had to get a story with the Cookies in it, even if its used different than what we have seen before. Charlie Brooker really seems to be fascinated by uploading a person into different stuff and what that means, and he is apparently really creeped out by the idea. At this the Ashley Too cookie has a happier ending than most cookies tend to do, even if it is pretty creepy that apparently every one of the Ashley Toos are basically lobotomized Ashley Os that are semi aware of how limited their thinking is and are trapped in this Disney princess version of herself that she hates. I guess its good that the rest were destroyed than. 

I thought that the Black Mirror twist would be that Ashley O would die, with Ashley Too stuck somewhere as her robot self, and the aunt would find Rachel as she tried to rescue Ashley, ans convince her to be the next big star, as the aunt was saying how they needed to find someone else as soon as Ashley was brain dead, and it would end with her starting to feed Rachel the pills and she introduces her as the new Ashley O. 

At this point, there's a strong chance that any new episode will feature the Cookies or some sort of VR simulation. Conceptually, it's getting to be predictable and a bit weary. 

This ep was just OK for me. I didn't take much away from it, and the trope of "pop star controlled by their image just wants to finally be their true self" has been done to death. 

[kelslamu]

I thought Miley Cyrus did well in her role, but thought it too happy and simplistic for Black Mirror.  I don't usually get bored with an episode, but thought this a bit drawn out and predictable.

[kelslamu]

Could be that bubblegum pop singers have to be mentally "adjusted" by their handlers to produce that happy crappy sound.  lol JMO

[JoeyCrown]

I have a very specific question: Why did the system start to reboot after she woke up? It didn't appear that anyone plugged it back in.

[benteen]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 2:19 PM, Maximum Taco said:

That's probably one of the points. One of the others (IMO) is the ethical nature of using a person's image after death. Obviously in this sense it was horribly unethical, since Aunt Catherine was cartoon step-mother villainous. 

But more to the world we live in, stuff like using Peter Cushing's image in the movie Rogue One, or having Tupac appear on stage at Coachella as a hologram. Sure the owners of their estates can sign off on it, but would they have really wanted it? After all Catherine (despite her cartoonish step-mother villainy) is Ashley O's next of kin and probably would've been the heir to her belongings if she were to die. When you inherit a famous person's work, do you actually own their image and can you make said image do whatever you want?

Side note: The Bubblegum Pop version of Head like a Hole has been stuck in my head since I watched this episode. I'm super pleased Nine Inch Nails was ok with Black Mirror Bubblefying their song. 

Unless specified, those who inherit the estates control the use of their image and likeness.  I've read that sometime before his death Robin Williams signed something to prevent his image and likeness from being used after his death.

Peter Cushing had no heirs and he left his estate went to his long-time secretary.  Disney negotiated with her to use his likeness and image for Rogue One.  From the interview I read, she sounds like a nice lady and talked about seeing the film with her grandkids and being stunned to see her old boss on the big screen again.

Another actor who left no heirs is Jack Lord so his estate is owned by a bank.  The current Hawaii Five-O show had to negotiate with him to use his image and create a (creepy) CGI likeness of him.

I strongly suspect going forward that public figures, actors and entertainers in particular, are going to leave legal instructions on the use of their image after their deaths.

Edited June 10, 2019 by benteen

[iMonrey]

I thought it was OK. I think having Miley Cyrus in it is kind of non-starter for a lot of people. But I agree with this:

Quote

What's interesting is that even in a short three episode season, he couldn't not make an episode about brain copying. That seems to be very much on his mind

The show continues to find unique ways to explore that concept but yeah . . . it's almost obsessive about the subject matter. I think we're a long, long way off from being able to download someone's consciousness into an inanimate object or AI. I don't think that's the big danger to come, compared to some of the other topics this show has explored like addiction to social media. 

[AgentRXS]

On 6/7/2019 at 2:19 PM, Maximum Taco said:

When you inherit a famous person's work, do you actually own their image and can you make said image do whatever you want?

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8512129/whitney-houston-estate-hologram-tour-musical-album-primary-wave

Yes. When I saw this episode, it immediately reminded me of exactly what is going with the Whitney Houston estate.

[markx]

So all it took to figure out the "limiter" was plugging it into a computer, by two people who by their own admission had no clue what they were doing? Given how eager some people are to hack/mod any product, this seems unlikely! (I don't think it matters that geeks aren't the target market - e.g., people have been finding security holes in all sorts of IOT devices even if they're not at all aimed at geeks.)

The technology doesn't make sense: making a human-level AI duplicate and then limiting it would be far harder than just trying to create the limited version in the first place. That would only stop being true in a future where human-level AI duplicates are already commonplace - in which case, it would be a world where there would be various levels of AIs including human duplicates everywhere.

Interesting that in this case, the cookie didn't seem to mind that she was trapped in a limited robot/toy (other than being briefly angry at the limiter), and was also happy to accept that she was a copy.

Personally I'd have no interesting in watching a gig where the music was all pre-recorded, and the performers were just random dancers projecting a hologram! (Sadly the reliance on pre-recorded/from-a-computer music in gigs seems increasingly common, even in alternative genres. I'm sure I even remember seeing a NIN gig where the drums continued when the drummer wasn't playing, although to be fair he was playing a different instrument.)

Re Peter Cushing - a key point I think is that Disney don't claim to own any likeness of  Peter Cushing, but they do own the character Grand Moff Tarkin, which is not something that Cushing created. In my opinion, that reasonably includes Grand Moff Tarkin as portrayed by Cushing in the Star Wars films, and creating derivative works of that. This is different to if they used Cushing's likeness for other characters, or especially this was derived from his appearances outside of Star Wars.

But I can see things being more dubious in the music industry, where there's a far more blurred distinction between the person and the product.

As an aside, I'm interested in that mouse catcher product, our cat keeps bringing them in...
 

[Melina22]

On 6/5/2019 at 9:19 PM, Miles said:

Miley Cyrus really isn't a bad actress at all. I would say I'm surprised, but really she was great on SNL, so I'm not thaaat surprised.

She was excellent. She must have enjoyed doing a role so close to aspects of her own experience. 

I was shocked at how low her speaking voice is. I don't think I ever noticed that before. 

[aussieinsydney]

I thought all 3 episodes were pretty lame and not 'Black Mirror' worthy at all. Very disappointed.

[SG11]

On 6/7/2019 at 3:10 PM, Momzilla38 said:

I guess I am in the minority on this one.  I found it cartoonish (others have referred to it as a Disney movie - that is also a good description!) and very predictable. For me, it didn’t work, the whole reason I watch Black Mirror is to avoid cartoonish typecast characters and predictable storylines, hmmm...irony in play perhaps 😉.  In fact, I felt the same about all 3 episodes.  Hoping for a better season 6!

Agree with this. I thought they would take the happy shiny girl power Nicolodion storyline and drive straight into hell or something, but it was too pink and silly for me. The happy ending was boring and predictable and the little punk version of the doll felt like Goth Barbie... oooh, sooo edgy.

Im not a Miley fan but I think she did a fine job acting as did the rest of the actors. I just found the episode too silly for Black Mirror. Have they been told to lighten up? Hope not.

[HC87]

It was fine but only the first half of this seemed like Black Mirror....pretty sub-par season imo

[iMonrey]

Quote

Re Peter Cushing - a key point I think is that Disney don't claim to own any likeness of  Peter Cushing, but they do own the character Grand Moff Tarkin, which is not something that Cushing created. In my opinion, that reasonably includes Grand Moff Tarkin as portrayed by Cushing in the Star Wars films, and creating derivative works of that. This is different to if they used Cushing's likeness for other characters, or especially this was derived from his appearances outside of Star Wars.

That flies in the face of fair usage laws. Ask Crispin Glover. The only reason they were able to recreate Cushing's image was because they had the full approval of his estate. If they'd said "no" to the idea, the studio would not have been able to go ahead with it. They can certainly recast the role, because as you say, they do in fact own the character. They don't own the likeness of the actor.

[heatherchandler]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:19 PM, Maximum Taco said:

Side note: The Bubblegum Pop version of Head like a Hole has been stuck in my head since I watched this episode. I'm super pleased Nine Inch Nails was ok with Black Mirror Bubblefying their song. 

When I heard it, I was like, that sounds familiar... then when I realized it, I was wondering if Black Mirror realized that they copied NIN.  I was thinking oh noooo Trent's going to be so mad!  Did he sign off?

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

When I heard it, I was like, that sounds familiar... then when I realized it, I was wondering if Black Mirror realized that they copied NIN.  I was thinking oh noooo Trent's going to be so mad!  Did he sign off?

Apparently they were super excited after they heard the lyrics. 

You can even buy official collaboration merch from their store. 

https://store.nin.com/collections/clothing/products/head-like-a-hole-x-black-mirror-tee?gclid=CjwKCAjwuqfoBRAEEiwAZErCssHOzKojNBL84cKM_bPIWdQIl_bIDaOyTiXqvT8sFrCKFT1FJYVeChoCLC0QAvD_BwE

[Pondlass1]

I'm surprised so many enjoyed this season.  I was bored.  Black Mirror used to be unsettling.  Now it's just lame tame TV fodder like everything else on TV these days.

Sigh

[BuyMoreAndSave]

Ok so I don't watch Black Mirror because the episodes I've seen are too unsettling, but I need some clarification after seeing many people online talking about how "Ashley O saved pop music and Miley Cyrus should continue the persona as a real artist!"...they're aware it's just NIN covers and are joking, right? Right?

[millennium]

Hands down one of the worst episodes of the series (thank goodness for pig-fucking because it's the only thing preventing me from calling it the worst).

My only question is for Trent Reznor.   Is money that tight?

[Dobian]

I have mixed feelings about this episode.  I liked the premise, the little a.i. robot was kind of neat, and it looked like the story was going to go down a dark road.  But then all of a sudden it turns into this goofy teen comedy caper.  The result was that the whole of it felt very disjointed to me.

[BuyMoreAndSave]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

My only question is for Trent Reznor.   Is money that tight?

He's rolling in the Old Town Road bucks, so it can't be.

[millennium]

It didn't help matters that Miley Cyrus is such a repellent personality.   My own fault entirely for watching when I knew beforehand that she is in it.

[MichaelaRae]

I went into this episode fully ready to NOT enjoy it because I can't even with Miley Cyrus...she's exhausting and pervasive and I need a break from her the way I needed a break from Paris Hilton in the 'aughts. But I actually really enjoyed this one! And hey, her tongue stayed in her mouth ALMOST THE WHOLE EPISODE so I'm gonna chalk that up as a win on general principle.

[Chaos Theory]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:51 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I'm surprised so many enjoyed this season.  I was bored.  Black Mirror used to be unsettling.  Now it's just lame tame TV fodder like everything else on TV these days.

Sigh

The first two episodes where boring.  I really liked this one but then I don’t loath Miley Cyrus like a couple people do.   Last season was better though.   I don’t need the show to be unsettling as long as it tells a quality story.   I loved the Star Trek spoof last season which  wasn’t unsettling at all.   This season was just boring.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[junemeatcleaver]

On a Roll/Head Like a Hole is pop perfection.  That's all I have to add.

[ganesh]

I don't have much of an opinion on Cyrus and thought it was kind of stunt casting at the outset. She did a great job. 

I understand the criticism of the show, but it's at the point now where if they stick to the formula, then people are going to complain that it's the same thing over and over. But if they try something different, other people will complain. Just make the show and let it fall. 

[100Proof]

This season was awful. As soon as american actors started to creep in I knew it was gonna be all down hill.

It's something Charlie Brooker would normally be skewering, as well as the past couple seasons, on 'Screenwipe'

Edited July 4, 2019 by 100Proof

[Kel Varnsen]

As much as I am tired of the brain/personality gets downloaded into a computer storyline  (seriously so tired of it) the hardass version of Ashley Too was really funny. I liked the whole thing but I really enjoyed the first half, because the Ashley Too device seemed like something that wasn't too far off

As for the second half, I am not sure why they needed to do the whole scan your brain for lyrics thing. It seemed unnecessarily and total bullshit. They were just cheesy pop songs, so get someone else to write them and say you found her songbook.

Also why would you evem need the Ashley hologram to be motion capture?

[HerkyJerky]

I thought the young actress that played the teenage Rebel Wilson in the Netflix movie, “Senior Year” did a great job, so I looked her up on IMDB and she played Rachel in this episode. She really is Australian & she did a good job hiding it here.