S02.E01: What Have They Done?

[tennisgurl]

Meryl Streep is adding so much new energy to this show already, she is already nailing that passive aggressive/actually aggressive mother in law. You can already see some of where Perry got his entitlement and anger from, it seems like his mom treated him like a god, and then he expected to be continued to be treated like one by everyone else. I hope we get into what their home dynamic was, it could really explain more about Perry, and could maybe help Celeste help her sons deal with their aggression and difficulty with emotions. 

I just watched The Society where the actress playing Abigail is one of the main characters, so its funny seeing her here again playing a pretty different character. Abigail is being bratty about it, but her not going to college when she wants to do something else isnt exactly a horrible idea, and she isnt wrong that college isnt for everyone. There are plenty of young people who want to get out in the world and start making a difference, and getting in on the ground floor of a start up is hardly throwing her life away like Madeline seems to think. Or if its that big of a deal, just ask her to take a gap year so she can explore her options more. 

Jane should really start cashing those checks for Ziggy, or at least put them into an account for him to pick up when he becomes an adult. Yeah taking Perry's money feels icky, but its for Ziggy's future.  

Oh how I missed those slow motion beach shots!

[izabella]

43 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I don't think that would be a crime.  The only "crime" is the Monterey 5 all agreeing to lie about it.  If they told the truth the police would have closed the case by now.

Did anyone see the start of the big fight?  Did anyone see Perry starting it?  Because, if the truth were known about Perry abusing his wife and raping Jane, I could see the detective wondering if the women were all in on a plot to kill him and maybe starting the fight with Perry themselves, conveniently by the stairs so an "accident" could happen.

[Blakeston]

35 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Plus if she works for a year or 2 at a npo that assists the homeless it will help with that college application. 😊

It's not a nonprofit, though. What she's describing sounds like it could easily be pretty shady.

I really hope the show makes it clear exactly what the public was told about Perry's death. We saw Madeline telling the police that Perry was being violent when he "fell." It's just a question of whether the police revealed that to the public.

I'm sure that Mary Louise would have sought out any and all information provided by the police about his death. If the police have already acknowledged that Perry died attacking women, then Mary Louise really has no excuse for talking about how glorious her son was.

I also hope they reveal exactly what motivated the women to lie to the police. Did they think it was the best way for all of them to avoid jail? Was it to prevent Bonnie from being publicly labeled as a killer? Was it to protect Celeste's kids from knowing how evil their father was, and/or to protect Ziggy from realizing who his father was? Or was it all of the above?

[teddysmom]

57 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I wonder how much we'll see of the young actor who plays Ziggy since he's gone on to bigger things. I know we only caught a glimpse in this episode. 

Nice to see Madeline's younger daughter is still as big a smart ass as she was last season. If I ever talked to my mother like that I shudder to think what would have happened. 

[tennisgurl]

I know that Jane clearly has bigger things going on, but I am so not a fan of Jane's new haircut. It looks so harsh on her, like she is a teen going through a goth phase. 

[Dminches]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Did anyone see the start of the big fight?  Did anyone see Perry starting it?  Because, if the truth were known about Perry abusing his wife and raping Jane, I could see the detective wondering if the women were all in on a plot to kill him and maybe starting the fight with Perry themselves, conveniently by the stairs so an "accident" could happen.

How could the police prove that they started it and why do it in such a public place where others could see them "start it?"  Didn't Celeste have bruises on her?  That would seem to allow for others to come to her defense. Perry was a pretty big guy.

[ProudMary]

Spoiler

As a huge fan of the book, I'm not at all happy with how this season is unfurling. As most of my comments about this episode, and indeed about the season itself, are very book spoiler-y, I've taken my post to the "Big Little Book Talk" thread. 

While I'm not thrilled with the introduction of the character, I do think that Meryl Streep is doing a great job as the antagonist though.

IMO, Madeline is thoroughly unlikeable, but I don't believe it's too much of a stretch for Reese Witherspoon to play such a character.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Athena
added spoiler tags

[meep.meep]

48 minutes ago, Dminches said:

How could the police prove that they started it and why do it in such a public place where others could see them "start it?"  Didn't Celeste have bruises on her?  That would seem to allow for others to come to her defense. Perry was a pretty big guy.

They definitely included scenes showing Celeste talking with the police just after the "fall" - she's got cuts and bruises.  And a school fundraiser is the last place that anyone would think of to commit a premeditated crime.

[Razzberry]

Mary Louise and her bit about not trusting short people is freaking hilarious, and commenting on Maddy's 4" heels had me rolling.

That and Ed's supermarket encounter with the new breasts were comedy gold, and a welcome relief from last year's grim subject matter.

[DrSparkles]

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Spoiler

As a huge fan of the book, I'm not at all happy with how this season is unfurling. As most of my comments about this episode, and indeed about the season itself, are very book spoiler-y, I've taken my post to the "Big Little Book Talk" thread. 

While I'm not thrilled with the introduction of the character, I do think that Meryl Streep is doing a great job as the antagonist though.

IMO, Madeline is thoroughly unlikeable, but I don't believe it's too much of a stretch for Reese Witherspoon to play such a character.

I have believed since the movie came out, thar Reese is 💯 her character in Election.

 How is Celeste splitting up Perry’s  money without the mama or anyone else knowing? 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Athena
added spoiler tags

[meep.meep]

It's her money now.  Perry's mother has no oversight with that money in a community property state.

As a vertically-challenged individual, I loved Mary Louise's assessment of Madeleine.  We know that's what you are thinking about us!

[Athena]

6 hours ago, scrb said:

Though maybe people may find it incredible that little Bonnie was able to push Perry, who's a giant, over the ledge, no matter how much she took him by surprise.

Bonnie has been shown to be very fit and she likely had an adrenaline rush when she pushed him which may have increased her strength temporarily. 

[Razzberry]

I'm not a doctor but pretty sure what actually killed Perry was his impalement on that rebar.   The drama surrounding the Monterey Five's imminent arrest is entertaining but may be all in their minds.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Razzberry

[Penman61]

Trivial but gnawing: Last season, the opening bars of the theme song seemed distorted (on purpose?), both the vocals and instruments. 

This year, it's the same song but a different version? Or did they just fix the distortion?

[gooberfish]

I don’t recall the kill scene as self defense at all. I thought that Bonnie came running up like a raging bull and pushed Perry. I’m going to have to review. Sigh.

[Anela]

19 hours ago, chocolatine said:

As much as I hated the Maddie/Joseph affair last season, Ed running into Joseph's wife and her new boobs at the grocery store was all kinds of awesome. 

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think Meryl Streep needs to dial it down a notch. Her performance in this episode felt too much like an Emmy reel, all I saw was Meryl Streep acting instead of an organic portrayal of a mother grieving her child. Also, I hope Mary Louise finds out about Perry's abusive ways ASAP. If Celeste has to keep pretending that Perry was the perfect husband, she'll be stuck in the same lie she was before he died.

She reminds me of Richard's mother, in the Gilmore Girls. I don't know if you've watched that, but looking down on everyone, making snide remarks, exactly the same. 

I also think that she knew about her son's abusive behaviour, but that in her eyes, he could do no wrong. 

[ch1]

1 hour ago, gooberfish said:

I don’t recall the kill scene as self defense at all. I thought that Bonnie came running up like a raging bull and pushed Perry. I’m going to have to review. Sigh.

It was pure defense of Celeste.  He was kicking her while she was down and the other women weren’t able to get him off.  What Bonnie did was the only way to get him to stop.

Bonnie has nothing to feel guilty about.  It sucks that the lie is what is eating at her.

[sunshine23]

I must say, I was not impressed. That's not to say I won't continue watching, but so far, meh. Loved Meryl Streep and know I'm going to love to hate her, but between all the music and quick shots, I got a headache from not being able to focus on something before suddenly switching to something different. Hopefully the camera work calms down, Jane's bangs grow, and we get to watdh a non-vertigo inducing series.

[LoveLeigh]

Yeah, the acting is great but this show has lost me. It has become a show that already in ep 1 is clearly in love with itself. I could not believe it when I saw Shailene Woodley as "Jane" dancing alone on the beach in some cheap theatrics to some beautiful music. It was "shtik." 

This season seems like an unnecessary extension of season 1 and looks like it will shoot itself in the foot just as "American Gods" and "Westworld" did in their season 2s. 

This season in my opinion was a money grab. So they bring in the phenomenal Meryl Streep and she is determined to find out what really happened to her son... but we know and who cares if she finds out. Some series should quit while they are ahead. 

[PepSinger]

Heh. I enjoyed the episode. I’m glad the show is back.

If I were Celeste, I’d be pissed about Jane not cashing those checks because she’d be fucking up my bank account. CASH THE CHECKS.

[Cheezwiz]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I know that Jane clearly has bigger things going on, but I am so not a fan of Jane's new haircut. It looks so harsh on her, like she is a teen going through a goth phase. 

The straight across bangs are tragic. Shailene Woodley already has a bit of a potato face to begin with (as do I, so I should know) and the hair ain't helping.

Also wishing we could see her with her previous coffee shop beau, but it looks like he's out of the picture entirely. The new guy they seem to be introducing looks way too young for her. Like, high-school young. I don't get it.

[juno]

The first season was so good. Everything; acting, direction, acting, story.

If the goal of the second season was to bring in an obnoxious character that is constantly wrecking havoc on the main characters for no reason than they have achieved it.

If there was not enough story left to tell and they need an angry, mean character to extend the life of this great show I will sadly be out soon. I was fast forwarding the Meryl Streep character by the 20 min mark after the stupid height garbage conversation.

[Cheezwiz]

Has anyone noticed that the actress who plays Maddie's bratty teen looks alarmingly like Amber Heard? Is it just me?

[chocolatine]

15 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Also wishing we could see her with her previous coffee shop beau, but it looks like he's out of the picture entirely. The new guy they seem to be introducing looks way too young for her. Like, high-school young. I don't get it.

Douglas Smith, the actor who plays Jane's coworker, is 33, six years older than Shailene Woodley.

I agree that I'd much rather see Jane develop a relationship with Tom. Douglas Smith's acting doesn't do anything for me, I thought he was the weakest actor of the Big Love cast, but HBO seems to really like him.

Edited June 11, 2019 by chocolatine

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I also hope they reveal exactly what motivated the women to lie to the police. Did they think it was the best way for all of them to avoid jail? Was it to prevent Bonnie from being publicly labeled as a killer? Was it to protect Celeste's kids from knowing how evil their father was, and/or to protect Ziggy from realizing who his father was? Or was it all of the above?

They seem to be setting up the premise that it was all Maddie’s idea in the moment, instinctively trying to protect Bonnie, and they all backed her up and went along with it. I buy it - it’s very Maddie to go straight for an easy lie and they were all in shock. Not really thinking straight. 

I missed this show and I’m so glad it’s back. Personally I found Meryl mesmerizing. 

[Cheezwiz]

9 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Douglas Smith, the actor who plays Jane's coworker, is 33, six years older than Shailene Woodley.

Yowza, I never would have guessed this at all. He still looks like a kid to me. Not feeling him as a romantic prospect for Jane, but oh well.

[Miss Slay]

Hated it.

The pacing was off. They need the original director back.

Spoiler

Without the book, the shows feel like typical television, slowpaced and aimless.

The first season was perfect there was no need for a second.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Athena
added spoiler tags

[CleoCaesar]

12 hours ago, Wickedeve said:

I'm totally on board with this unpopular opinion 😬 For me, it was as if Meryl Streep was in her own show. Everything from the fake teeth to her affected acting took me out of every scene she was in, and that was surprising. I was even thinking that she should watch Nicole Kidman and Robin Weigert's scenes for a master class in how to bring it on this show.

THANK YOU. I get that everyone thinks Meryl Streep is the second coming of Jesus, but to me her acting comes off as so showy and mannered. It's over the top, even in the quiet scenes; it calls attention to itself.

Nicole Kidman is doing some of the finest work of her career on this show, and in every episode it's complex, layered, and subtle acting. It's never cartoonish. Meanwhile people keep focusing on Meryl's fake teeth and eardrum-rupturing screaming. For which she'll probably win the Emmy. Sigh.

[Melina22]

20 hours ago, mojoween said:

I’m concerned for Celeste because there is no proof of Perry’s abuse, is there?  The only hospital visit I can recall is for Perry’s damaged urethra but the only one who knows about the abuse is her therapist. She told Celeste to get documentation but it doesn’t seem like she has that.

Mary Louise doesn’t seem like the type of woman who will just take Celeste's word for it.

What's that about Perry's urethra? Doesn't ring a bell at all for me. 

Mary Louise seems like the type of mother who either won't believe her perfect son was an abuser, or else will be convinced Celeste somehow brought it on herself. "Made him do it", so to speak. She just seems so vengeful and vindictive. And clearly her beautiful son could do no wrong. 

[chocolatine]

15 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

What's that about Perry's urethra? Doesn't ring a bell at all for me. 

Celeste hit Perry in the junk with a tennis racquet during a fight last season (in self-defense, of course). Apparently, that "broke" his urethra - not sure how medically accurate that was.

Edited June 11, 2019 by chocolatine

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Mary Louise seems like the type of mother who either won't believe her perfect son was an abuser, or else will be convinced Celeste somehow brought it on herself. "Made him do it", so to speak. She just seems so vengeful and vindictive. And clearly her beautiful son could do no wrong. 

It's hard to read Mary Louise's motivations.  I'd almost say everything she is doing is purposefully designed to unsettle people to get them to reveal information they'd rather not reveal, but it is not clear.  If I were Celeste, the screaming and quasi-freak out during dinner would have been enough for me to start limiting Mary Louise's time around the boys. 

[Chaos Theory]

Didn’t watch this live.  Wanted to watch the season finale of Billions.  Anyway. My guess and without reading any spoilers this season is going to about the different degrees of guilt all the characters feel after killing Perry.   Of course Celeste, Bonnie and to a certain extent Jane it would come out first.

I was glad to see Celeste’s psychiatrist back.   During the whole scene I was wondering if she suspected that Celeste killed her husband and that is the root of her guilt. It will be interesting if that is true.

 Mary Loiuse is definitely going to shake things up.  The only question I have is how aware she was of her sons....issues.

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder; this topic is to discuss the episode. Mention of the book (including hinting about changes or differences) is off limits. Posts have been removed or spoiler tagged; please take your book comments to Book Talk topic. Thank you.

[Lemons]

On 6/9/2019 at 11:31 PM, Razzberry said:

That was awesome.  Loving Streep and her passive-aggressive snark, and good to see the ghost of Skarsgard still haunting the place.  Jane needs to get over not accepting child support payments and put that money away for Ziggy.

Jane looked like she had a fancier apartment.  That and her expensive brand clothes aren’t being paid with her minimum wage job. 

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

It's hard to read Mary Louise's motivations.  I'd almost say everything she is doing is purposefully designed to unsettle people to get them to reveal information they'd rather not reveal, but it is not clear.  If I were Celeste, the screaming and quasi-freak out during dinner would have been enough for me to start limiting Mary Louise's time around the boys. 

Mary Louise is such an odd and unsettling person. She's one of those people who make comments that take a second to parse, and by the time you realize you've been insulted, they're on to something else. 

She seems to make barbed remarks to and about almost everybody, but I noticed that she had nothing negative to say to her grandsons, even after seeing one of them stab the other with a fork. I suspect that much like her adored son, these boys can do no wrong in her eyes. 

I'm feeling sort of overinvested in the Mary Louise character, maybe because I was raised for part of my life by a Mary Louise. This helps me understand and distrust the character, and at the same time, I appreciate Meryl's complex portrayal, and the way she's nailed this strange and difficult person. 

[teddysmom]

11 hours ago, PepSinger said:

If I were Celeste, I’d be pissed about Jane not cashing those checks because she’d be fucking up my bank account. CASH THE CHECKS.

Celeste should just set up a trust for Ziggy, that he can access at whatever age she deems appropriate, stipulate money for college. She can have an attorney administer the trust, and Jane then doesn't have to worry about accepting money for sleeping with Perry. 

[answerphone]

If Jane isn't cashing checks from Celeste, how the heck is she able to afford her new apartment? 

I'm confused. 

Even if she's working more hours, it's obvious she's not a highly paid individual, with a child to support, as well.

[ferjy]

On 6/10/2019 at 10:04 AM, teddysmom said:

 I think there was abuse in Perry's family history, either he saw his father hit his mother, or Mary Louise beat him.  She does seem a little over the top, but hopefully we'll get a flashback to explain things.

I didn't see a show spoiler thread, this has been in all the previews but I'll hide it just in case.

  Hide contents

Mary Louise confronts Celeste with "you were going to leave him, you left that out, didn't you".  So how does she know that unless Perry called her from the car at the gala.  Seriously? Your wife tells you she's leaving becos you beat the shit out of her and you call Mommy? 

I have to say I have a soft spot for Skarsgaard. I have seen him on talk shows and he's so sweet and self effacing,  and he was fantastic in Little Drummer Girl on AMC.  

Not to mention he’s gorgeous. 

And yes, he’s always so nice in interviews. I really liked Little Drummer Girl. Great acting all round. 

[gibasi]

12 hours ago, Miss Slay said:

  Reveal spoiler

Without the book, the shows feel like typical television, slowpaced and aimless.

The first season was perfect there was no need for a second.

I didn't read the spoiler.  I agree the first season was perfect.  I am willing to give the second season a chance but didn't think there was a need.  And I don't want to see the lady detective obsessing over what she thinks was a murder.  That doesn't make sense to me at all.  If they want to explore guilt or the lack of guilt and how each woman deals with it I can get on board.

[ferjy]

22 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Madeline should respect her daughter's wishes. She wants to work now, why not let her? A lot of kids need that year out of the education environment, to determine what field they want to go into. 

Because more often than not, when they take time off before college, they end up never going. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, answerphone said:

If Jane isn't cashing checks from Celeste, how the heck is she able to afford her new apartment? 

I'm confused. 

Even if she's working more hours, it's obvious she's not a highly paid individual, with a child to support, as well.

As I said upthread, it looks to me like Jane and Ziggy are living in the apartment that Celeste rented when she was trying to leave Perry last season. I can see someone like Celeste prepaying the rent for a full year, so she's probably having Jane and Ziggy live there for free at least until the lease is up. However, Jane accepting a free apartment wouldn't square with her not cashing the "rape money" checks, so I'm not 100% sure. At any rate, it looks like the same place, with the wall of windows that Celeste was cleaning last season in preparation for the move.

BTW,

Spoiler

in the book Celeste still moved into the apartment after Perry's death because she couldn't stand living in the house where she'd suffered so much abuse, and she wanted a simpler life for her boys.

[ferjy]

11 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

THANK YOU. I get that everyone thinks Meryl Streep is the second coming of Jesus, but to me her acting comes off as so showy and mannered. It's over the top, even in the quiet scenes; it calls attention to itself.

Nicole Kidman is doing some of the finest work of her career on this show, and in every episode it's complex, layered, and subtle acting. It's never cartoonish. Meanwhile people keep focusing on Meryl's fake teeth and eardrum-rupturing screaming. For which she'll probably win the Emmy. Sigh.

I agree and I’m a Meryl Streep fan. Speaking of subtle, she generally does subtle so well, but it’s missing in this role. So far, at least. Maybe, as has been mentioned, she’s putting on a show to unnerve the group into revealing the answers she’s looking for, and she’ll then get back to her usual more natural acting style.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

I agree and I’m a Meryl Streep fan. Speaking of subtle, she generally does subtle so well, but it’s missing in this role. So far, at least. Maybe, as has been mentioned, she’s putting on a show to unnerve the group into revealing the answers she’s looking for, and she’ll then get back to her usual more natural acting style.

I think Streep is doing the mannered, unsubtle wench on purpose because Mama Mary Louise is a freak.  I fully expect Mary Louise to lose her shit at some point and to abuse Celeste.

[BetyBee]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Because more often than not, when they take time off before college, they end up never going. 

But when they're pushed to go, they often flunk out.  If she doesn't want to go, I'd say let her work for a year and see if she changes her mind.  It actually seems like a realistic storyline to me.  Madeline regrets not going to college, but her daughter has had everything handed to her in life and doesn't appreciate the opportunity.  

I just realized that Mary Louise is also Ziggy's grandmother and I shudder to think of her finding out that bit of news!

[gingerella]

On 6/9/2019 at 9:28 PM, Razzberry said:

You just know Steep is gonna be stirring the pot about her sainted son's death.  The Monterey 5 needs to hang together on this one.

Calling it right now...Mary Louise is going to find out about the checks going to Ziggy, and she's going to investigate that shit and find out about her dear boy's exploits...

BTW, I wasn't sure about Meryl in this but hot damn, she's killing it right out of the gate! She's a pro, and really shows her depth of character development, whereas so many other actresses are just re playing the same character over and over no matter the show/film, but not Meryl. She's amazing and she's why I'll give this second season a chance.

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Because more often than not, when they take time off before college, they end up never going. 

How many kids have goals like this one?  I’d be impressed and tell her to give it a year and see how she does.  Maybe she excels and has a career with this or maybe it fizzles and she goes to college or something else. It’s narrow minded to think only college for teens.  

[txhorns79]

Quote

But when they're pushed to go, they often flunk out.  If she doesn't want to go, I'd say let her work for a year and see if she changes her mind.  It actually seems like a realistic storyline to me.  Madeline regrets not going to college, but her daughter has had everything handed to her in life and doesn't appreciate the opportunity.  

I agree with the stipulation that if daughter is not going to college, she is on her own financially, and should not look to her parents to bail her out if things don't work out as she thinks they will. 

[NurseGiGi]

15 hours ago, juno said:

The first season was so good. Everything; acting, direction, acting, story.

If the goal of the second season was to bring in an obnoxious character that is constantly wrecking havoc on the main characters for no reason than they have achieved it.

If there was not enough story left to tell and they need an angry, mean character to extend the life of this great show I will sadly be out soon. I was fast forwarding the Meryl Streep character by the 20 min mark after the stupid height garbage conversation.

I didn't care for the ending last season. The whole scenario was a no brainer and clearly self defence. Bonnie pushed him and he fell. Simple as that. Why lie? I don't think I will watch this season, just seems like an excuse to extend an issue that should have been a non issue to begin with.

[LoveLeigh]

I have read some reviews and so many critics use the adjectives "nuanced and layered" to describe the acting. I want to vomit. I call it "under acting." It's a style where an actor uses his face to indicate with expressions what he is thinking and is not all that difficult. Anybody's facial expressions can be transparent if there is any thought process going on.  And it can be controlled to hide inner feelings as well. I just don't get all the love for the acting on this series. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

Because more often than not, when they take time off before college, they end up never going. 

Is this based on research or just personal feelings?

It's pretty common these days for some kids to take a gap year between high school and college.  All of those kids that I've known have then gone on on to college.

Madeleine is a control freak and her daughter seems to have learned at an early age how to push every single one of her buttons.  This is just another example.