S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[VCRTracking]

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Eh. It's a war. That's what war is. You don't get to take breaks. You take breaks and you lose and it's not like the Long Night lasted that long - they weren't fighting the army of the dead for days, weeks, or months. I don't know what the actual length of battle was supposed to be on the show - but I'm guessing it was a few hours tops. 

If you're the one invading you decide the timeline. You can get screwed waiting too long but also jumping the gun I'm sure. 

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

"If I was a Stark man...Dum  A Dum A Dum A Dum" 🎹

Are there any trees left in the Godswood? Those pyres should have wiped out everything that had already been cut down....

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Detective005 said:

In my opinion, the problem is not the death of rhaegal, but the way he died. I mean, we waited five years to taste the power of these creatures, which were called powerful and invincible by each of Got's characters and instead two of them disappeared in 7 episodes.

See, for me that was the beauty of it. It speaks to the hubris of all humanity when they think they are invincible. Because they're only invincible until someone figures out their weakness. Seeing Dany conquer with all her dragons isn't particularly exciting to me. Seeing them now in the position of being at a most an equal force, but really at this point a lesser one, now that's interesting.

3 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

who says it's necessary? Why is the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" an actual literal commandment?

I always assumed it had to do with the Night King as they are the nearest to the wall. Over the thousand(s) of years, the reason was lost. Now there's no need for a Stark at Winterfell.

I like the way things have circled around - Sansa and Theon were the two of the Stark children who abandoned Winterfell willingly, and they became the two who, in the end, were most attached to it. They found in their journey the need and desire to go home to heal. The others still think of it as home, but their paths led them away from it and they don't seem inclined to want to stay.

[Notwisconsin]

8 hours ago, Detective005 said:

In the previous episode a mythical dragon was killed by a mediocre character like Euron? In that way? Are they serious?

1

welcome to the wonderful world of conspiracy theories!!!! How could a nobody like Oswald kill JFK? It must be a conspiracy!!!! Little David was a crack shot and Goliath needed someone to carry his shield for him. it was a miracle!!!! Qyburn is an evil genius, which means he's a genius. Plus dragons aren't that smart. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Notwisconsin

[Notwisconsin]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

We've had 7 seasons of "the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years!" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" 

 

8000 years? Then half the north should be Starks. There should be no problem finding a seventh cousin twice removed someplace.

[MissLucas]

40 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

See, for me that was the beauty of it. It speaks to the hubris of all humanity when they think they are invincible. Because they're only invincible until someone figures out their weakness. Seeing Dany conquer with all her dragons isn't particularly exciting to me. Seeing them now in the position of being at a most an equal force, but really at this point a lesser one, now that's interesting.

This! And it's not as Dany hasn't received ample warning that her dragons are indeed vulnerable. Indeed history - even if only alluded in the show - tells of dragons being killed in war. The NK taking out Viserion was the first warning. And like it or not but the one person who learned a lesson from that was Cersei. She counted the dragons when Dany arrived in the dragonpit, came to the right conclusion and then set Qyburn to task. Dany received the next warning at the battle of the Goldroad when the Scorpion prototype managed to injure Drogon. At this point in the narrative she should have started to realize that her WMDs are not invincible.

As for dragons becoming extinct : no worries, there's currently a dragon-egg on the Waverider. I'm sure nothing batshit crazy will happen once it hatches.

[enoughcats]

11 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years!" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" 

 

Darned if that doesn't sound inspired by the book and then movie Cold Comfort Farm, which had two refrains:

On was I saw something behind the woodshed, BUT the second was

There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm. 

Not only do parts of the Farm look a lot like Winterfell, the women brought in from the hinterlands could have been extras in either opus.

[SueB]

Regarding Sansa weighing in on the state of the troops:

1) The people who took off half of the little symbols should have stated "I have X ready to go" or "I have X who will be ready to go by Y date".  That they simply said "I have X number of troops" is bad reporting.  They're alive? They're recoverable? They're recovered?  Big difference.

2) Sansa is pretty much feeding, sheltering, and tending to the wounded of EVERYONEs troops.  She's got a valid perspective if she's getting reports all the time on how many troops are seriously wounded.  

So, IMO, Sansa shouldn't have had to make the point about 'recovered' but it was a valid point.

Danys, OTOH, is right to be concerned that the troops may run off on her.  They just defeated an 8000 year old threat -- how much energy do that have left for who sits on the throne?  The answer is damn little. But they owe her, and the North isn't going to shirk that.  

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, magpye29 said:

“Whoever wrote this episode should DIE!”

They will.  Eventually. Valar morghulis.

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

Plus dragons aren't that smart. 

I'd say Dany isnt that smart. She was 1,000ft up and didnt notice an enemy fleet headed her way. Let's not blame the dragons, she got her "child" killed.

[WatchrTina]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder how the Stormlands, particularly the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon?

Yeah that gift from Queen Dany may end up being a poisoned chalice.  The smartest thing Gendry could do would be to marry a "lady."  His proposal to Arya was smart -- with her at his side he'd have a MUCH better chance of being a success as a Lord.  But, alas, he didn't propose for such a strategic reason -- he did it because he really loves Arya and she, alas, cannot return his love.  That's not her.  Yeah I think the blacksmith Lord is in for a rough ride.  But on the other hand . . . he probably won't live long enough to claim the castle he was promised. 

[WatchrTina]

20 hours ago, QuinnM said:

[Gendry being named a Baratheon] got a real good look from Jaime when it was announced.  Kinda like wtf?

I wonder if Jaime was thinking, "Wait, Joffrey missed one?" 

Edited May 9, 2019 by WatchrTina

[TaurusRose]

11 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

The fact that Jon gave the speech at the funeral pyre scene instead of Daenerys - who is the current leader - is a clear example of how the writers are setting her up as unlikable. Also the writers did not have Jon make a public display of thanking Daenerys and the troops she put at the front lines. It is hard to not see the lazy, poor writing - which pulls you out of the story.

At one point I had thought that GRRM was having trouble finishing the books because he was too busy helping with the show - - or suffering from major writers block.
My new theory is that GRRM realized, at some point, that D&D were not such great writers. So he let them run out of source material from which to cherry pick and expose their lack of talent when left to their own devices. 
It is not as if I think GRRM's book series is perfection ... but at least it seems consistent within itself.

I think this was appropriate.  Jon was the one who had rallied everyone and brought them North to fight the threat.  I also think he did thank Daenerys, she was included in the groups Jon named.  I'm wondering just how many thanks does Dany need specifically calling her out.  

5 hours ago, Absurda said:

Well, Lady Jane Gray was a distant cousin, I think, who was crowned ahead of the previous King's (Henry VIII) two daughters.  She was selected because they really didn't want the Catholic Mary I to rule.  Eventually Mary's forces and supporters fought to put her on the throne and behead Jane.

LJG's claim was weak and King Edward knew that when he named her his heir.  She reigned for what 9 days before she was executed for line jumping.  

[RealReality]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The battle lasted maybe 8 hours.  It was horrible, but not nearly as taxing as weeks of marching and fighting.  

The Unsullied trained from dawn to dusk every day since they were little boys.  In terms of fatigue, the Battle of Winterfell was like a half day for them.

Many of the people who fought the hardest were able to drink and make love into the wee hours of the morning at the celebration.   

Sansa did seem drained from sitting around in the crypt, though.   

I don't know, I'm pretty tired after eight hours at work, and my job is not fighting the undead.

And I thought sansa's point was about the northern men needing rest. Not the dothraki (did any of them survive?) Or the unsullied.

[ShellsandCheese]

I'd say Dany isnt that smart. She was 1,000ft up and didnt notice an enemy fleet headed her way. Let's not blame the dragons, she got her "child" killed.

It’s a useless plot point by lazy writers. It also violated the laws of physics and human eye sight - unless we are to believe that Dany suffers from intermittent blindness. Along with her intermittent Alzheimer’s, because there’s also this: 

Dany forgot about Euron’s fleet

As one of the comments put it, we should start using “skewered the dragon” instead of “jumped the shark”. That’s how ridiculous that whole scene was. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[CletusMusashi]

I don't even inherently mind the riff that's forming between Dany and her subordinates. She's tired, she's stressed, she's lost two dragons, two close friends, and a lot of soldiers. The longer she waits, the more prep-time Cersei has. And while she'd prefer to avoid civilian deaths, she's also tired of the only "permissible" losses being those on her side! They could tell the same exact story they're telling, without making her completely over-the-top bug-eyed loony. Why not just tone down some of dialogue slightly and let her continue to show nuance in her acting. Instead of Jon being the hero and Dany being the villain, they could still tell the same story with Jon as the hero and Dany as the auntie hero.

[Andromeda]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Not trusting people because they "arent one of them" is stupid,

And it's something the Lannisters do, isn't it? Cersei reminds Jamie of that on the regular. Hmmmm.... What does that tell us about the changes in the Stark family since the beginning? I don't think they're necessarily good.

[Andromeda]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So Euron gets a dragon too, huh? I am really annoyed that after all this build up with the dragons being these huge game changers that cant be beaten for the whole shows history, two of the three of them have been taken out pretty easily. They are one of the selling points of the whole freaking show, I want dragons damn it! And I am already sick to death of Euron, he is basically becoming the new Ramsey, a cocky invincible villain who somehow always gets one over the good guys, no matter how improbable his victories are. I hope that Grey Worm feeds him to a Kraken. 

Urine is a ridiculous character. No nuance, no clear motivations or back story. He's a cardboard cut-out Super Villain. I want to burn him into ashes myself. And I cannot — cannot — find it in me to believe he's just that good at targeting moving objects with a weapon that has just been invented. And a dragon, who would see it coming, and is really high? The idea they were caught unawares is also difficult to swallow. It's all so silly! And this show used to be a cut above. 

[Lady S.]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Wow, Jaimie used the "wow, it sure is hot in here..." line to get in with Brienne? God, what a dork, no wonder the only person he could get with is his sister!

IKR? His seduction technique is straight out of the classic Nelly song, barge into someone's bedroom, complain about the heat and then just start stripping. 

I also love that one thing that's definitely never changed about Jaime is the Lannister snobbiness. "No, we could never give Highgarden to a common cutthroat, even though he's threatening to murder us and it'd just be an empty promise until a monarch agrees to it anyway."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see the contradiction in Sansa's question. She's raising a problem any laymen could see about troops who just had a battle, but not claiming any authority or expertise in exactly how long they should wait. 

I think they'd be far far more likely to speak up if Jon or Dany had actually worked this out beforehand. There would be nothing embarrassing for Sansa in them reassuring her that this had been looked into. It's not a dumb question. (Even more obviously not dumb if Jon and Dany looked into it themselves already.) Otoh, people had very good reason to not pipe up say that they hadn't been asked or that Sansa had a point. It was pretty obvious which person in the scene people were more careful around. 

It's important, imo, that the issue so explicitly became about doing what Dany said. This idea of Sansa just being stupid with her question isn't the reaction in the scene that I remember. It's that she's challenging the plan being made. The well-being of the soldiers isn't the real concern in the reaction to Sansa's question--they're ready when the queen says they're ready. Even if Sansa, too, was using the soldiers' well-being as an excuse and just wanted to delay the battle, she's still doing it by voicing concern you can't dismiss without notice. If that's the case then Sansa might secretly not care if the soldiers are okay but Dany and Jon just announced they don't.

I had no problem with what Sansa said either. I don't believe it was a stalling tactic. She just watched all the Northern bannermen fight against an army of the undead (well, at least until Arya had the sense to send her down to the crypts where she'd be out of the way). She was out there when they burned the bodies afterward, so she's seen that the survivors are tired, injured, and grieving.

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that giving people who are exhausted, both emotionally and physically, the opportunity to heal and rest will allow them to fight better in the next battle, especially against troops which have not just gone through a huge battle. Cersei's troops have been well fed and well rested while sitting around waiting for Dany's people to show up, so it's not going to be a very even fight if everyone who managed to survive the Battle of Winterfell shows up still wounded and exhausted (and after a two week march down to King's Landing).

If Dany didn't want to take Sansa's word for it, all she had to do was send any servant to fetch one of the commanders for a more specific report on how many soldiers were currently wounded and how long the commanders thought the troops needed to rest before beginning the march to King's Landing. And if Dany didn't want to believe the commanders (because I would not put it past Dany to be paranoid enough to believe that all of the commanders were in league with Sansa), all she had to do was walk down there herself to see how many soldiers were injured, tired, etc.

[Detective005]

11 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

See, for me that was the beauty of it. It speaks to the hubris of all humanity when they think they are invincible. Because they're only invincible until someone figures out their weakness. Seeing Dany conquer with all her dragons isn't particularly exciting to me. Seeing them now in the position of being at a most an equal force, but really at this point a lesser one, now that's interesting.

Well, but I discovered the opposite, the dragons appear extremely weak. Moreover Daenerys becomes totally stupid from one season to another, also her entourage. She was ‎Sun Tzu first, now a crazy woman.

10 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

welcome to the wonderful world of conspiracy theories!!!! How could a nobody like Oswald kill JFK? It must be a conspiracy!!!! Little David was a crack shot and Goliath needed someone to carry his shield for him. it was a miracle!!!! Qyburn is an evil genius, which means he's a genius. Plus dragons aren't that smart. 

Oswald was a very mysterious and crazy guy and there was also an international conspiracy. But the most important difference is that JFK was just a man ...

Euron seems to me that only a rude man and if my hypothesis becomes true, he will soon die in the next episode

10 hours ago, MissLucas said:

. At this point in the narrative she should have started to realize that her WMDs are not invincible.

So any home sapiens on these earth would think that the dragons need some kind of protection

7 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Dany forgot about Euron’s fleet

This is the point! For me, you see, all dragons could die but for logical reasons. The authors have violated all the physical laws, Newton has never existed only because they want to rebalance the forces in the field

Edited May 9, 2019 by Detective005

[Detective005]

Not to mention the werewolves, totally useless in the TV series

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

And it's something the Lannisters do, isn't it? Cersei reminds Jamie of that on the regular. Hmmmm.... What does that tell us about the changes in the Stark family since the beginning? I don't think they're necessarily good.

It's the only way the (worst) Lannisters know how to operate, as Cersei told Joffers in s1 "Everyone who isn't us is an enemy". And Tywin told her they needed the Tyrells as allies in s4 but said he didn't trust them or Robert and when asked who they could trust said "ourselves alone". Saying you never want to know someone because they're not "one of us" is more the attitude of a schoolyard bully than a righteous protagonist. 

As for the Sansa v. Dany war council disagreement, I kinda blame Arya for not speaking up to say they don't even need a battle when she's an assassin with her own beef with Cersei and experience in the secret passages in and out of the Red Keep. Or y'know Varys could have mentioned the tunnels since he used to use them, instead of just expecting they should oh so humanely wait out a siege by starving the city.

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Urine is a ridiculous character. No nuance, no clear motivations or back story. He's a cardboard cut-out Super Villain. I want to burn him into ashes myself. 

 By far the worst thing for me about Theon's death is that this douchebag outlives him. 

(At least Gendry got to bang his lady love, and she never said she didn't love him back, just that she didn't want to be any lord's lady wife.)

Edited May 9, 2019 by Lady S.

[Detective005]

10 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

 Plus dragons aren't that smart. 

Uhm, I'm not sure about this. For example Drogon seems to recognize immediately the targaryen blood of jon

Edited May 9, 2019 by Detective005

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, Detective005 said:

Uhm, I'm not sure about this. For example Drogon seems to recognize immediately the targaryen blood of jon

I still think that's going to be the key to everyone believing Jon is the true King, there's gonna be a moment where Drogon disobeys Dany in favor of Jon. Which will probably get Drogon killed somehow and allow Cersei to win, but hey Ned's Jon's honor will still be intact ie the peasantry won't have burned or something to that effect.

[tv-talk]

9 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It’s a useless plot point by lazy writers. It also violated the laws of physics and human eye sight - unless we are to believe that Dany suffers from intermittent blindness. Along with her intermittent Alzheimer’s, because there’s also this: 

Dany forgot about Euron’s fleet

As one of the comments put it, we should start using “skewered the dragon” instead of “jumped the shark”. That’s how ridiculous that whole scene was. 

So I had never watched any of the behind the scenes stuff and assumed that "Dany forgot about Euron's fleet" was a fan being snarky...not the actual g-d writer of the show. What a turd sandwich they put out there for everyone to stomach. At this point best I can hope is that Euron is slowly roasted alive after his tongue is cut out.

[Uncle JUICE]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

As for the Sansa v. Dany war council disagreement, I kinda blame Arya for not speaking up to say they don't even need a battle when she's an assassin with her own beef with Cersei and experience in the secret passages in and out of the Red Keep. Or y'know Varys could have mentioned the tunnels since he used to use them, instead of just expecting they should oh so humanely wait out a siege by starving the city.

I kinda blame the Starks, who now all appear to be pretty stupid, for how long this dumb ass conflict has lasted, right back to Catelynn going rogue and taking Tyrion prisoner at The Vale, but more recently, you can go back to killing Littlefinger. 

Much as I hated that character by the time he died for any number of non-narrative reasons (he appears here and there, he apparently is omniscient), if they had tricked him into having that conversation with JUST THE THREE OF THEM, not the entire northern gentry as witnesses, then they could have killed him just as easily, and had Arya use his face. HOW VALUABLE IS LITTLEFINGER'S FACE? First of all, he's a notorious turncloak. No one thinks he was loyal to the Starks. She could have used that face to easily infiltrate King's Landing via the network of tunnels already mentioned. Potentially used it to get within striking range of both the Mountain AND CERSEI, but assuredly could have used it to get close to the most important member of Cersei's staff: QYBURN. Now you've used the Faceless man powers to flip Littlefinger into Qyburn and you have an assassin as hand of the Queen. You have unlimited information and access! The way they've totally dropped the ball with Faceless Man powers is congruent with the show's decline overall: yeah, watching Arya be a bad ass warrior was cool, but that is NOT what she did all that training for.  I mean for fuck's sake she brought home  a bag of faces!

@Bannon has rightly pointed out several times that problem with dragons and an army like the one they landed with for the narrative, but I feel like we should now recognize, with this show having only two episodes remaining and feeling a bit beyond redemption, I can't help but feel like it's been demonstrated to be the only way this show would still be satisfying. The show's premise is no one is safe, subversion of expectation, etc., right? Here's how I think this should have gone. Last time, I promise. Rewind to the very last moments of Spoils of War and the very first moments of the next episode. Jaime is not somehow alive and free. He is knocked off the horse, by Bronn, doesn't fall into an impossible deep hole that his horse missed, Drogon has taken aim, and Tyrion calls out STOP!!!...THAT'S JAIME LANNISTER. IOW, the most valuable prisoner we can take. Roll credits. 

E5 opens with Cersei reading the raven scroll with the news: negotiate surrender or your brother will die. Cersei being Cersei decides "Eh, fuck it," and Tyriion has to deliver the news to Jaime, then try to save him with Danerys: Jaime must take the black or be burned. Danerys then takes all three dragons, her entire force of 8K Unsullied and let's say 25K Dothraki screamers, and landed on top of the Red Keep by night. The first cohort of Lannister troops would have been summarily toasted. Then you announce, LOUDLY, who you are, why you're there, and crucially, "I promise to make whoever delivers Cersei to me within the next ten minutes Lord or Lady of Highgarden." (props to whoever idea that was, my original idea was to just fly them there in S7E1 but Highgarden wasn't available at that time). Ok, some die by the Mountain, but he can't stop all of them. Cersei is captured, and yes, executed. This leaves you 1.5 seasons to

• do all the King's Landing politicking and its subsequent problems and intrigue
• DO THE MAD QUEEN NARRATIVE if you want (instead of make Dany basically a "Women Leaders, AMIRIGHT?" character)
• Find Sansa a sensible and justifiable reason to not like Dany (instead of 'ugh, another girl!')
• Give Jaime a narrative redemption arc when he realizes the NK is not bullshit but has to fight against his reputation as a douchebag to convince the rest of the realm
• Build the NK mythology more
• Figure out how you're going to resolve the John and Dany thing, which I do not have any faith will ever be handled properly by these two bunglers. DUDES, GET AWAY FROM MY STAR WARS. NOW!!!

Honestly the quick resolution of the KL narrative would have gotten a lot out of the way, it looks to me like less of a problem than it did when Bannon originally (and again rightly, without the benefit of seeing really how wobbly this show has become) pointed it out. 

ETA the only reason the problem of the NK became so pressing in the first place is that he had a DRAGON to burn the wall down. If he didn't have that, then he's still stuck north of the Wall as far as I can tell. There was no pressing need ever demonstrated as to why that had to be dealt with first. Very rare to deal with 'existential threat to life on earth' BEFORE 'political problem,' I mean unless you're talking about this current admin and its take on climate change. HIYO! I will take the warning for political talk, it was too easy to do. Sorry guys :). 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I had no problem with what Sansa said either. I don't believe it was a stalling tactic. She just watched all the Northern bannermen fight against an army of the undead (well, at least until Arya had the sense to send her down to the crypts where she'd be out of the way). She was out there when they burned the bodies afterward, so she's seen that the survivors are tired, injured, and grieving.

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that giving people who are exhausted, both emotionally and physically, the opportunity to heal and rest will allow them to fight better in the next battle, especially against troops which have not just gone through a huge battle. Cersei's troops have been well fed and well rested while sitting around waiting for Dany's people to show up, so it's not going to be a very even fight if everyone who managed to survive the Battle of Winterfell shows up still wounded and exhausted (and after a two week march down to King's Landing).

If Dany didn't want to take Sansa's word for it, all she had to do was send any servant to fetch one of the commanders for a more specific report on how many soldiers were currently wounded and how long the commanders thought the troops needed to rest before beginning the march to King's Landing. And if Dany didn't want to believe the commanders (because I would not put it past Dany to be paranoid enough to believe that all of the commanders were in league with Sansa), all she had to do was walk down there herself to see how many soldiers were injured, tired, etc.

Or just notice her injured dragon.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, Detective005 said:

Well, but I discovered the opposite, the dragons appear extremely weak. Moreover Daenerys becomes totally stupid from one season to another, also her entourage. She was ‎Sun Tzu first, now a crazy woman.

Oswald was a very mysterious and crazy guy and there was also an international conspiracy. But the most important difference is that JFK was just a man ...

Euron seems to me that only a rude man and if my hypothesis becomes true, he will soon die in the next episode

So any home sapiens on these earth would think that the dragons need some kind of protection

This is the point! For me, you see, all dragons could die but for logical reasons. The authors have violated all the physical laws, Newton has never existed only because they want to rebalance the forces in the field

Love this plan.  But, instead of a rock, Drogon should drop an elephant on Cersei.  She really wanted elephants.   

[dreamcatcher]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:05 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Do you really think neither Jon, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, Brienne or Nameless Dothraki Commnader had checked on the readiness of their troops?

If they had, they would have said just that to Sansa. They didn’t, so why should we assume they had checked and just didn’t bother bringing it up?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Updated (seeing a considerable lack of Xs with only two episodes left makes me paranoid that people will be dropping like flies in the next episode):

[Bryce Lynch]

32 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

If they had, they would have said just that to Sansa. They didn’t, so why should we assume they had checked and just didn’t bother bringing it up?

Because they are all experienced military commanders, who care about their troops.  They also don't want to get themselves or their Queen killed by going into battle with troops too exhausted to fight.  Certainly one or all of them would have backed General Sansa up, if they agreed with her.   

It is the JOB of Davos, Jon, Brienne, Anonymous Dothraki and Grey Worm to check on their troops and it is a given that they would have done so.    General Sansa's job is grocery shopping for the troops.   

[dreamcatcher]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Because they are all experienced military commanders, who care about their troops.  They also don't want to get themselves or their Queen killed by going into battle with troops too exhausted to fight.  Certainly one or all of them would have backed General Sansa up, if they agreed with her.   

It is the JOB of Davos, Jon, Brienne, Anonymous Dothraki and Grey Worm to check on their troops and it is a given that they would have done so.    General Sansa's job is grocery shopping for the troops.   

And yet, none of them said a thing about their troops being ready to fight or having spoken to their generals. Apart from Jon, the rest are Dany’s soldiers so of course they wouldn’t say anything against her. I understand that you don’t like Sansa, but there’s no reason to take as canon things that weren’t shown on the show. You have plenty of things to judge her for that she has actually done.

[dreamcatcher]

AND let’s not forget that these are the same experienced military commanders who didn’t think to send scouts for a possible ambush in dragonstone...

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Updated (seeing a considerable lack of Xs with only two episodes left makes me paranoid that people will be dropping like flies in the next episode):

My guesses, in order of likelihood of a Episode 5 death:

1) Varys

2) Grey Worm

3) The Mountain (though not on the board)

4) Cersei (though she isn't on this board)

5) Dany

6) Jon

7) Jaime

😎 The Hound

9)  Sansa

10) Arya

11) Tyrion

12) Davos

13) Gendry

Ghost, Gilly, Sam, Pod, Brienne, Tormund and Bran would see to be safe, for this episode.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

AND let’s not forget that these are the same experienced military commanders who didn’t think to send scouts for a possible ambush in dragonstone...

Well, I guess if you want to assume that terrible writing, having characters do things that were totally out of character at Dragonstone would carry over to the preparations back at WF, I guess that makes sense.

It really makes it hard to evaluate anything when the show runners say Team Dany "forgot about Euron's fleet".   Have we seen them to be total morons, with not even basic skills of planning military actions before?  

If Dany charged in without looking, after Missendei was murdered under a different circumstance,  and "forgot about Euron's Fleet" that would make sense.  

Or if Grey Worm and the rest of Dany's fleet were treating the trip to DS as a pleasure cruise after Cersei had fled KL or they thought she was dead, or whatever, that might have made sense.

But, the way they handled a serious, supposedly planned troop movement, without emotions being out of control was ridiculous.  

[Ottis]

9 hours ago, Detective005 said:

Well, but I discovered the opposite, the dragons appear extremely weak. Moreover Daenerys becomes totally stupid from one season to another, also her entourage. She was ‎Sun Tzu first, now a crazy woman.

I don't recall Dany ever doing anything particularly smart. She took some basic steps any winner would do. But from pushing away advisers who truly care for her to crucifying slavers to killing the Tarleys in front of all to forgetting recon, Dany has done a number of silly things.

14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It really makes it hard to evaluate anything when the show runners say Team Dany "forgot about Euron's fleet".   Have we seen them to be total morons, with not even basic skills of planning military actions before?  

I do agree with this. Dany may have forgotten. Her advisers would not have. But her advisers did caution her to wait, and she didn't, and rushed right into a trap. So I'm not sure what a warning about the fleet would have changed. Dany was being Dany.

Generally, I find the handling of Dany by the show to be consistent. I think many Dany fans have tried, and continue to try, to make the character into something she is not and never was.

Alas, as for the much of the rest of the show, it has felt like for several seasons now that the showrunners/writers are making it up as they go. And it shows. It will be the central shame of this series, that has become such a pop culture icon, that they dropped the ball at the end. 

[terrymct]

38 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

My guesses, in order of likelihood of a Episode 5 death:

1) Varys

2) Grey Worm

3) The Mountain (though not on the board)

4) Cersei (though she isn't on this board)

5) Dany

6) Jon

7) Jaime

😎 The Hound

9)  Sansa

10) Arya

11) Tyrion

12) Davos

13) Gendry

Ghost, Gilly, Sam, Pod, Brienne, Tormund and Bran would see to be safe, for this episode.

There has to be some big scene with Jaime and Cersei.  I'm hoping he's the one to kill her but there are a lot of characters who have reason to do so.

[paigow]

56 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Updated (seeing a considerable lack of Xs with only two episodes left makes me paranoid that people will be dropping like flies in the next episode):

Has anyone followed up on John Oliver / Trevor Noah recommendation that one or more GoT characters be inserted in the photo array of Democratic Presidential Candidates???

[paigow]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:59 PM, Constantinople said:

I wonder how the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon

Melisandre & Stannis roasted most, if not all of them....

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

Melisandre & Stannis roasted most, if not all of them....

Only the idol worshipers. :)

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

Melisandre & Stannis roasted most, if not all of them....

Only the idol worshipers. :)

That was actually at Dragonstone (Storm's End was Renly's and Stannis was always salty about it.)  Actually if Gendry goes to check out his new digs at Storms End, I think it'll be the first time we've seen it.

[meep.meep]

23 hours ago, Drogo said:

A day to dispose of the AOTD remnants (what's that, 100K wights?) and build all of those pyres?

Those pyres were neat and tidy too!  No giant heaps of bodies higgledy piggledy.  They were lined up properly with the important people on top!

I was waiting for Sansa to start bitching about what was she going to do to get rid of all the dragonglass that's strewn about everywhere.  

[dreamcatcher]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, I guess if you want to assume that terrible writing, having characters do things that were totally out of character at Dragonstone would carry over to the preparations back at WF, I guess that makes sense.

It really makes it hard to evaluate anything when the show runners say Team Dany "forgot about Euron's fleet".   Have we seen them to be total morons, with not even basic skills of planning military actions before?  

If Dany charged in without looking, after Missendei was murdered under a different circumstance,  and "forgot about Euron's Fleet" that would make sense.  

Or if Grey Worm and the rest of Dany's fleet were treating the trip to DS as a pleasure cruise after Cersei had fled KL or they thought she was dead, or whatever, that might have made sense.

But, the way they handled a serious, supposedly planned troop movement, without emotions being out of control was ridiculous.  

The writing is terrible, but this is what is canon, so we can’t judge any of the characters on what we assume, as we all interpret characters and scenes in different ways. I personally think that the past few seasons and especially in S8 the writers are telling us one thing and showing something else. I like Dany and I don’t understand how others see her as mad or why we’re supposed to believe it. I also like Sansa and even those who hate her should understand that the girl who knew how to pretend she was still loyal to Joffrey while he was publicly abusing her, wouldn’t be bitch facing Dany left and right. She would at least pretend to like her. Dany always cared about family and believes to be barren, so she wouldn’t let her line to die with her just to make sure she won’t lose her claim. Nome of them would be stupid enough to run straight to Euron’s trap.

I just think that they’re trying to reach the important stuff from GRM’s plot without working for it. That’s why we get told stuff instead of seeing them for ourselves, why Rhaegal died so stupidly etc. 

[izabella]

12 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Those pyres were neat and tidy too!  No giant heaps of bodies higgledy piggledy.  They were lined up properly with the important people on top!

I was waiting for Sansa to start bitching about what was she going to do to get rid of all the dragonglass that's strewn about everywhere.  

I'm taking that as a testament to Sansa's organization skills that they managed to get Winterfell all cleaned up so brilliantly and quickly.

[MamaBird]

Quote

She is at the precipice of an enormous crossroads, as Little Carmine would put it.  

Little Carmine! He was great to have around, with his malapropismic pronouncements.  We really needed his comic relief, especially after we lost Christapha.  (Chrissie had so many great lines, but I think my favorite was when he said gravely of Jackie Jr., "He's the hair apparent.")

[Chris24601]

On 5/8/2019 at 3:03 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

The battle lasted maybe 8 hours.  It was horrible, but not nearly as taxing as weeks of marching and fighting.

Eight HOURS? I think you’re less than informed about the physiological impacts of combat. The Battle at Winterfell was less than the episode’s runtime (the events probably occurred in close to real time actually) or there wouldn’t be a human left alive.

Even short duration combat is extremely exhausting even for those trained for it. There’s a reason boxing and mixed martial arts use 3-5 minute rounds with 1 minute rests between.

Real hand-to-hand fombat is like running all out, you can do it for a few minutes at a time and adrenaline can buy you a bit more, then you need to stop to catch your breath for a minute after that or you’re going to fall over and not get back up.

Side-bar: that’s one reason the Army of the Dead was so terrifying... they literally do not get tired. They just keep coming at full strength until you stop them or they’ve killed you. They are to humans what humans are to just about every other species on Earth (see “Pursuit Predation” for why humans are basically the Terminators of the animal kingdom). /Side-bar.

An hour long battle is basically like going fifteen rounds in a boxing ring. Even for professional boxers, a twelve round bout takes 2-3 WEEKS to recover from and that’s with optimal conditions (marathons take a similar amount of time to rebound from... you’re moving around soon enough, but your endurance and immune system don’t fully come back after that level of nutrient depletion without a couple weeks of lighter activity).

Eight hours of combat would be fighting eight fifteen round matches in a row. There’s not a professional fighter on earth who could survive that (that’s the sort of punishment that, if the person taking those hits was somehow still alive, would takes months to years of physical therapy to recover from).

Marching is a comparative cakewalk (Humans are built for it evolutionarily speaking). 10 miles/16 km a day (which is about what medieval armies managed) can be maintained for weeks or months without significantly impacting performance.

But marching IS taxing enough to keep those troops from getting the type of post-battle rest they need to recover their fighting strength. Her troops are going to arrive about as depleted as they were before they started marching and will be nowhere near the fighting strength they’d have if they’d even rested a couple of weeks before heading out first.

Further, the wounds everyone was sporting throughout the Winterfell portions of the episode were still fresh. Arya still had a fresh shiner as she left with the Hound. That means the war council was just DAYS after the battle... probably the morning after the funeral/wake/party.

So Sansa was 100% dead-on right to point out the troops needed to recover (she’s seen the after effects before from the Battle of the Bastards) and Dany was an obsessive sociopath for demanding they march to get her Throne NOW!

Dany’s that person who always screws up what they’re working on because they keep trying to cut corners to get to the end. The end result is they end up having to spend more time, effort and money than if they’d just done the job the right way in the first place.

Dany’s rush to get the Throne is what has doomed her to either being the monster everyone fears or just flat-out losing to Cersei. It’s the same impatience that’s delivered her setback after setback throughout the series.

She’s been able power through it up to now Because Dragons, but technology marches on so now something exists that’s removed that edge and we start to see the disadvantages of a force composed primarily of light cavalry and light infantry that were largely invisible when fighting similar forces and with the cover of what amounts to a modern day ground attack craft like the A-10 or AC-130.

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, dreamcatcher said:

The writing is terrible, but this is what is canon, so we can’t judge any of the characters on what we assume, as we all interpret characters and scenes in different ways. I personally think that the past few seasons and especially in S8 the writers are telling us one thing and showing something else. I like Dany and I don’t understand how others see her as mad or why we’re supposed to believe it. I also like Sansa and even those who hate her should understand that the girl who knew how to pretend she was still loyal to Joffrey while he was publicly abusing her, wouldn’t be bitch facing Dany left and right. She would at least pretend to like her. Dany always cared about family and believes to be barren, so she wouldn’t let her line to die with her just to make sure she won’t lose her claim. Nome of them would be stupid enough to run straight to Euron’s trap.

I just think that they’re trying to reach the important stuff from GRM’s plot without working for it. That’s why we get told stuff instead of seeing them for ourselves, why Rhaegal died so stupidly etc. 

If they truly wanted Dany to go Mad Queen, they needed to do a 10 episode season. As it stands, this rush to convince the audience she's a ticking time bomb is falling flat. Do I see her as angry? Yes. Fearful of losing the Throne? Yes. Impulsive? Yes. Insane? No, not by a long shot. 

By the end of S8x04, Dany had lost the Dothraki, Unsullied, Jorah, Missandei, Viserion and Rhaegal: AND HER WAR WITH CERSEI HADN'T EVEN STARTED YET. All these losses were a direct result of helping Jon fight the Night King. To add insult to injury, every piece of advice her council has given her (and that she's followed) has turned out to be wrong. I'd be ready to burn Westeros to the ground at that point too.

Edited May 9, 2019 by BitterApple

[AD35]

17 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

To add insult to injury, every piece of advice her council has given her (and that she's followed) has turned out to be wrong. I'd be ready to burn Westeros to the ground at that point too.

If I could, I would have Tyrion haunted by the ghost of Septa Unella.  Every time that he gave a  bit of half-assed advice, she would ring her bell and say  to him "Shame!, Shame! Shame!"