S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Traveller519]

15 minutes ago, Glade said:

And Ghost…Jon or someone could at least have pet him.  I'd love it if Sansa or Bran adopted him instead, he's been with Jon for so much longer then Nymeria was with Arya, it's wrong.  Was he so ripped up because Bran had warged into him?  I guess we'll never know now, there's no more backstory on the Night King either.  Sigh…

It was so heartbreaking seeing Jamie leave Brienne, who deserves so much better, and he's choosing death and his abusive family over her.  I really believed for a moment that Cersie would rain arrows down on Tyrion, who of course was wrong, she didn't really love her children, she drove Tommen to suicide and murdered countless innocents with her petty war against the Tyrells, she not going to stop now.  Missandei's death was also swift and horrifying.  Is Yara herself going to show up at the battle next week?  I missed her (and for a breif second thought she had been captured again and that was going to be her up on the castle wall.)

I was so happy for Gendry when Dany was so generous.  But I hope that Arya survives the completion of her hitlist, even though it won't be with him. Bronn was really cruel and  obnoxious and now I'm rooting his swift death being played off as comic relief.

I'm really hoping Jon picks not only Yara''s Navy, but Meera Reed plus Nymeria and the Dog Army on his march south. They desperately need reinforcements! If Ghost needs to be far north, Nymeria has thrived South of the wall, and I'd love for Arya to get to wholly reunite with her wolf in the second-to-last episode who she lost in the second episode of the series.

While Bronn was certainly a dick, I think he was played genuine to the situation. We all love snark Bronn, but it's easy to empathize with where he's at. He's been at the center of this family's issues for years, and ever since Tyrion was locked up in Kings Landing the asks have only gone up with the promised payouts being deferred. He's exhausted, but his conscience won't let him forget who his friends are.

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, For Cereals said:

Every time I see Euron, I can’t help but think of Pacey/Joshua Jackson. 

Yes, a lot of people have mentioned this. To me he also kind of  looks like a chunkier, more demented version of Ewan McGregor.

The actor playing him is doing a great job, because every time I see him on screen, I totally want to beat him to a pulp.

[lvbalgurl]

19 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

I'm convinced Jaime headed South on a suicide mission to kill Cersei, not to rejoin her. He is tormented by self-hatred at this point, and this is going to be his attempt at atonement. I think he might have wanted poor Brienne to believe he was callously discarding her so that she wouldn't try to follow him and put herself in danger. I think she might pursue him. Clearly he's toast, and I think his wish of "dying in the arms of a woman he loves" will come true. He will die trying to kill Cersei, or trying to protect Brienne.

The way Brienne's face crumpled just killed me.  She's loved him for so long and he finally wanted her.  He made love to her and was going to stay with her.  And then...fucking Cersei.

But, to be able to have a real relationship, you have to believe you deserve happiness, and Jaime does not.  He doesn't think he's a good man and doesn't think he should live happily ever after with Brienne.  So he's choosing Cersei and death.  Maybe that was always Jaime's fate.  But, it's so sad to see, given how much he's been through and that he doesn't recognize that he actually deserves what he has with Brienne. 

28 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

And Dear Show: couldn't someone have given poor Ghost a bath? Couldn't he have been given at least a scratch behind the ears or a tummy rub from Jon, before he was "sent away to a farm in the country up North". All we saw was a shot of him peeking around some soldiers and whimpering sadly. Also yelling at my screen at that scene. Dammit Jon! I know CGI is expensive, but some final words would have been nice! 

I wanted a hug between Ghost and Jon so badly.  I remain completely puzzled by Jon's lack of affection toward Ghost.  It was all very strange and not explainable. 

30 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

 Tormund: The Duckie of the North (80's reference for you young'uns).

Haha.  Jaime is a weird combination of Steff, Blane, & Keith from SKOW.  Brienne is TOTALLY Watts.  Bigtime Watts.

34 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

 I'm honestly bored with the whole Jon/Dany/claim to the throne conundrum. It's easily solved, and any obstacles are just plot contrivances at this point.

I fucking hate it and can't wait til it's over.  All I want is for Tyrion and Sansa to go off and fuck like rabbits.  I was so hoping for Tyrion to go to her and broach the issue of their being together again.  They would be absolute heaven.

[voiceover]

Upon further reflection:

I hate that I wrote *pages defending Arya's killing of the NK -- only to be suckered into this...this flaming pile of poo!!!

Fuck the show runners!! who were too tired & too spoiled to put effort and heart and real money into "We waited two years for **this???"   You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a missed opportunity (Jon  & Ghost) or stupid-ass plot point (how did Dany not see the fleet from that angle?).

I'm fuming; I'm raging; I'm thinking Sean Bean got out at the right time.

Fuck HBO!! & the horse it rode in on.

[steelyis]

28 minutes ago, millennium said:

Except Dany is deeply disadvantaged.  Her winning hand has always consisted of three dragons; now she has just one and as things stand she can't fly it anywhere near King's Landing without it being killed.   AFAIC, Cersei has taken the dragons off the table -- unless Dany is willing to sacrifice Drogon in a kamikaze blaze of glory.

So unrestrained or not, Dany is not quite the threat she used to be. 

Dany won't be able to use Drogon as freely, but I'm not so sure Drogon's been neutralized.

Ballistas can't be everywhere and they aren't the most agile long ranged weapons either.

And good luck trying to pull off another surprise attack like the one that killed Rhaegar; the Golden Company needed a mountain to hide behind to make it work.

All Dany has to do is attack the ballistas and their platforms while they're aimed in any other direction. Hit them fast enough and the ballistas, and anyone manning them, will burn or scatter. It would require planning and coordination, but if executed properly destroying the ballistas should be relatively simple.

Somewhat risky, but simple.

What I'd like to see is Gendry, or anyone, make Drogon armor.

Or at least outfit Drogon with enough plating to protect his vital areas.

[Cheezwiz]

5 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

I fucking hate it and can't wait til it's over.  All I want is for Tyrion and Sansa to go off and fuck like rabbits.  I was so hoping for Tyrion to go to her and broach the issue of their being together again.  They would be absolute heaven.

I don't even like Sansa, but I would not object to her eventually teaming up with Tyrion. I think he would temper some of her worst aspects. Since watching last week's episode, I keep having an image repeatedly pop into my head: a tapestry. A tapestry of a woman seated on a throne (not the iron throne mind you), holding hands with a dwarf. Maybe if Tyrion lives, they will oversee the North together.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Leroux said:

Here we are trying to pass the blame on Jon, Sansa, Sam, Tyrion, Varys, Bran, everyone but the one who can make all this go away: Daenerys. 

Let it be no secret, proclaim loud and proud Jon's heritage and your willingness to share with him and rule together, problem solved. Daenerys blind ambition is nobody's fault but hers and hers alone, 

Here's the thing though. Why should Dany share? She has worked for this for 7 fucking seasons, been sold to a warlord and raped for it, marched through the desert leading her people, hatched dragons, halted her campaign to free slaves, gathered an army, made deals with allies and after all this  work - her entire fucking life - she is finally within arm's reach of the throne. And here is Jon. Not interested in it and who has done nothing to earn it or worked for it. Except because of patriarchal rules, he suddenly has a right to it.

Honest question here. Would you not be genuinely pissed if you worked all your life for a position and someone who did not work for it gets it because he has a dick?

Sorry, but I don't see Dany's ambition as a 'fault'. She is allowed it as are all the other characters on the show. Robert Baratheon destroyed Westeros because he had no ambition to rule.

I genuinely empathize with Dany here and I can understand her hesitation to share something that she has worked for her entire life.

Ultimately, Westeros being the medieval, primitive region it is, Dany will have to marry Jon like Henry VII and Elizabeth of York to take into account Jon's claim to the throne.  That would be the best way forward for her, but we will see how things go the next two episodes.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, enoughcats said:

That's sure the way the harpoons looked, and the sails weren't set for maneuvering.

The dragon fleet had dropped anchor....no way it was going to outflank anything.

Westeros 90210 / WinterFellrose Place ... Brienne + Gendry = 💓

[Coxfires]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Poor Gendry, he was just being a typical stupid man there, who allowed himself to get overwhelmed by the charms of a woman.  I wonder how he'd feel knowing she went off with the Hound?

I really hate what they did to the character, between him being everyone's butt monkey last season and now him becoming stupidly enamored with Arya...I wonder if Dempsie enjoyed playing him at all because the guy is basically a dimwit doormat by now.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Coxfires

[watchTV]

Dany was headed to Dragonstone when they were ambushed. No, she couldn't have retaliated by going behind the ships or directly above them because the harpoons could turn just like Bronn demonstrated when it was first used. What I want to know is why Dany went to Cersei with her last dragon and some of her people? That was a very vulnerable position. And why didn't Cersei just slaughter them all?

Some observations on here:

1. Earlier in the episode, Dany just lost a dragon (her child), Jorah, all Dothrakis, and a large number of unsullied. They all celebrate around Jon while she sits mostly by herself only a few feet away. Then add Sansa's hostility towards her. That must feel isolated and unappreciated after what she's sacrificed.

2. Sansa's perspective is she trust's no one outside her blood circle and Brienne. She lost her father, mother, and brothers to betrayal. She witnesses first hand all the scheming and manipulation from Baelish and Cersei. She believes a Stark is better in power and is untrusting of Dany who is famously known as daughter of the mad king. Dany rushing to battle Cersei reinforces she is not the best leader in her eyes.

3. Jon's just inherently good. It is his strength and weakness. It's what got him killed. He's also humble and loyal to a fault. He's accommodating Dany too much with rushed decisions. But that dismissal of ghost was really odd.

[lvbalgurl]

I actually felt that Gendry and Arya's scenes this ep were way more adorable and heartfelt than their sex scene.  I didn't get the impression that he was a dope - this is Lady Stark, the badass warrior he'd bonded with years ago who just killed the Night King.  And they had sex!  Of course, he's besotted.  Arya is AWESOME.  And unlike any woman ever.  He's also in a position to provide for her in the manner to which she was accustomed, prior to...everything.  

I get it.  I thought it was incredibly sweet.  But not for Arya.

If only he'd said, "Hey, after this is over, let's go on adventures together and see what the world has to offer"?  She would have been with it.  If only.

Edited May 6, 2019 by lvbalgurl
grammar

[IDFfm0870]

The way the good guys are destroying themselves from within, Cersei has already won.

Sansa swearing to keep Jon's heritage a secret, and wihin moments she tells Tyrion. Daenerys wanting Jon to keep his heritage a secret. Varys, one of my favorates, him and Tyrion discussing Daenerys the way they did. Sansa and Arya pressuring Jon. Not good.

We did not see Melissandre getting burned, did we?

Nice moment between Sansa and the Hound. Arya and Sandor riding off together made me smile. And her and Gendry, "That's not me." True to character I guess, still hope this is not their end. If anything else, they were good friends.

Rhaegal dying very sudden, that was a shocker.

I was surprised with Tormund leaving, and then Ghost, too. Had not thought of the possibility of them not being part of the last fight. That was heart wrenching. Maybe it is for the better, them staying alive that way.

Jamie and Brienne getting together. I get what Jamie is doing here, poorr Brienne.

Had to lol at Podrick drinking to Brienne being a virgin.

Greyworm and Missandei holding hands and smiling, that was a definite hint at one of them dying. I have never been the greatest Missandei fan, but that ending was hard to watch. And then "Dracarys!" You had it in you girl.

Daenerys lost Jorah, many members of her people, and now Rhaegal and finally Missandei. If I ever could understand her wanting to kill them all, it is now. And I am not even team Daenerys, but as of now, there is no other team left for me to root for. Go Khaleesi.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I love how the quiet dinner turned into drunken revelry with people hooking up, drinking games, etc. I liked Sansa's brief conversation with the Hound. "You're not a little bird anymore." When she touched his hand, it made me wonder when was the last time anyone touched him with kindness and without any fear. I also liked that later Tyrion seemed genuinely concerned about Sansa and was trying to get her to open up.

Oh, Gendry. It was so sweet that as soon as he became a lord, the first thing he did was propose to Arya. He thought a title was all that was keeping them from having a future together. He doesn't know Arya as well as he thinks he does. When she told him "I'm not a lady," I wish he had replied, "You don't have to be a lady who wears dresses and receives guests at fancy dinners. You can be exactly who you are right now or anyone you want to be because I love the person you are. I don't expect you to change anything about yourself." Of course, even if he had said that, she still would have turned him down anyway because she has more people to stab, but still.

But yay for the Arya/Hound buddy road trip, part 2!

Oh, Jaime. "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" He finally found happiness with Brienne and then he ran straight back to Cersei. I know it was a big deal for him because he'd never slept with anyone but Cersei or loved anyone but Cersei, but DAMN IT, JAIME. Brienne begs you to stay and you decide to ride off to die with the sister who paid someone to kill you.

But between the two Lannister brothers, I understand Jaime's weird loyalty to Cersei better because they had a twisted relationship. But what the hell is Tyrion's excuse? Why does he keep trusting her (believing she would send troops to help fight the White Walkers) and appealing to her humanity (when he knows she has none and that she would burn every person alive if it meant she alone would survive)?

When Dany said to Gendry, "Hey, you know that your dad tried to kill my dad, right?" I wish Gendry had said, "Hey, you know that happened before I was even born, right?"

It was hard for me to feel bad for Dany when she looked around the banquet hall and saw everyone happily socializing and she clearly felt left out. That's what happens when you only talk to a handful of people.

As much as I like Tormund, he got some demerits when he said that Jaime rode north and just took Brienne away from him. Brienne isn't a rock to pick up off the ground. No one took her away from you because (1) she has free will and (2) she was never yours to begin with. But I still laughed when Tormund was toasting Jon and spilling his drink everywhere.

The sweet look of happy surprise when Gilly put Jon's hand on her belly was great. I loved his tearful hug with Sam and Tormund's heartful farewell.

Damn it, Jon! Everyone gets a hug goodbye except for poor Ghost? Have you no heart? I'm comforting myself by imagining Ghost frolicking in the snow with Tormund.

I understand why Dany wants to get Cersei off the iron throne ASAP, but what Sansa requested was reasonable and the stone cold truth. Their remaining troops were wounded and exhausted. Would letting them rest and recuperate for even a week make that much of a difference? Cersei is not going to want to send her troops all the way to Winterfell to fight, so giving the northern troops a little time to mend was the smart thing to do. But all Dany can see is the title and the throne that she MUST have.

RIP Rhaegal. It looked like the dragon harpoon things were only on the fronts of the ships and that they didn't rotate all the way around, so why didn't Dany just make a u-turn and burn them from behind?

When Tyrion told Jaime "I'm happy you're happy," I mentally added, "I'm happy you're finally fucking someone besides our sister."

I am really confused about how quickly information travels in Westeros. When Cersei was talking with Euron about how the people knew the Usurper was coming, I thought but how? Did someone at Winterfell send the fastest raven in Westeros to King's Landing? How did anyone in the south know what happened at Winterfell so quickly?

Speaking of which, if Euron doesn't put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Tyrion, who has been gone for lord knows how long, already knew that Cersei was pregnant, he's a bigger idiot than I previously thought.

I haven't been a fan of the Dany vs Sansa thing since it began, but I think that a major issue when the dust settles (after Cersei is killed, fingers crossed) is that Dany is great at rallying the troops but she is shit at setting up infrastructure to provide stability for how a place should be run and how to maintain the peace. Her solution is always to have her dragons burn shit, which works when you're dealing with your enemies, but what about when it's your own people who are causing the issues? If you break the wheel by destroying the existing systems (as she did when she outlawed slavery), what is going to replace it? How will people work and live and eat? For example, if there isn't enough wheat being grown to feed everyone, your solution can't be to have your dragon burn the farmers if they can't magically produce more. You need solutions that don't involve burning people to a crisp. How can her subjects "live without fear and cruelty" if her only tactic is DRACARYS?

[Cheezwiz]

9 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Tyrion told Jaime "I'm happy you're happy," I mentally added, "I'm happy you're finally fucking someone besides our sister."

Yes! THIS! I thought exactly the same thing. I thought Tyrion was actually going to come right out and say it, but he didn't *giggle-snort*

10 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I haven't been a fan of the Dany vs Sansa thing since it began, but I think that a major issue when the dust settles (after Cersei is killed, fingers crossed) is that Dany is great at rallying the troops but she is shit at setting up infrastructure to provide stability for how a place should be run and how to maintain the peace.

Dany has always been good at conquering places, but not so hot at the nuts and bolts of ruling them. This is another reason she may not be ideal to sit alone on the Iron Throne. Jon is really good at admin stuff, but lacks ruthlessness when necessary. Dany +Jon together actually = one good ruler, which is why they should just get married and co-rule. But it's too pat and too happy an ending, so it won't happen. Plus there's only one dragon left. I will be upset if Drogon doesn't make it out alive - I am very attached to Dany's dragons. Dany, not so much.

[lvbalgurl]

Although I think the feast ran a bit too long, I loved the scenes of Tormund being Jon's hype man.  It's easy to forget that Jon was betrayed and stabbed to death not long ago; the fact that so many of his people love and rally behind him now is really kind of wonderful.  Say what you will about Jon, he's a genuinely good, honorable guy who deserves all of this.  Sansa's, "Go on, I believe in you," when Tormund was egging him on to chug the horn was quietly awesome.  As was Tormund toasting Dany, and Dany saluting Arya in turn.

Good times.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Cersei walked over to Missandei just before she was executed, she put her hand on Missandei's arm and kind of grabbed her by the elbow. I was really hoping that Missandei would throw herself off the top of the  wall and take Cersei with her.

2 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

there's only one dragon left. I will be upset if Drogon doesn't make it out alive - I am very attached to Dany's dragons.

I know it's ridiculous for me to care about a fictional dragon, but I will be really sad if we don't have one dragon still alive when the show ends.

3 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

Although I think the feast ran a bit too long, I loved the scenes of Tormund being Jon's hype man.  It's easy to forget that Jon was betrayed and stabbed to death not long ago; the fact that so many of his people love and rally behind him now is really kind of wonderful.  Say what you will about Jon, he's a genuinely good, honorable guy who deserves all of this.  Sansa's, "Go on, I believe in you," when Tormund was egging him on to chug the horn was quietly awesome.  As was Tormund toasting Dany, and Dany saluting Arya in turn.

I loved seeing all the camaraderie, however briefly! It was nice to see everyone united in celebrating each other, especially after the mourning earlier.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I think Dany might have listened to Sansa's very good point about the tired soldiers IF she hadn't spent the past few episodes treating her with poorly disguised disdain.

If this is true, then it just goes to show that Dany is letting her personal feelings get in the way of doing what's best for her people. Tired soldiers aren't going to be fighting at their best, and after the huge losses they took they need every man they have at as close to 100% as possible. It's also not good for morale to have the fight of your life, watch your friends die, then get told you are marching for the next two weeks to fight again.

[Luckylyn]

The Night King was a problem Dany was going to have to deal with eventually no matter what.  Either she face the NK in the North or the dead were going to overrun the North and head south.  It was in Dany’s best interest to fight with the Northerners against the Night King.

Cersei is a problem the North is going to have to deal with no matter what.  Better to face Cersei allied with Dany than on their own.

Still, I agree with another poster that Dany’s position would be stronger if she gave the North independence and fought against Cersei with them as allies.  That one concession would help earn good will in the North.  

Dany should let the dragons and soldiers rest and consolidate alliances with the other 7 territories.   She could recruit support and strengthen her army.  Cersei on the Iron Throne is just symbolic if in reality everyone surrounding King’s Landing is on Dany’s side.  

Dany really should marry Jon.  It’s a good political solution.  Worrying about Jon’s claim is a distraction that is so problematic.   I get that Dany’s worry about sharing power is that Jon would be pushed forward by others but Jon wouldn’t push her out of power.  He would offer support.  His lineage could be useful to her as her husband.  Then there’s the question of whether or not Dany is barren.  For the sake of stability Dany need’s to think long range about producing an heir.  It may make more sense for Dany to appoint Jon her heir so that his children would continue the family line.  So Jon would have to make a political marriage with someone else.

It really bothers me that no one is targeting the Iron Bank and trying to win their support away from Cersei.  Their money is the glue holding her army together.  I keep waiting for Tyrion or Varys to suggest it.  

[Chris24601]

So, Shadow Queen it is. She’s so insecure in her power that she doesn’t care how many of the kingdoms declare for her, because without the Iron Throne Cersei still gets to call herself A queen (not even THE Queen... Dany needs that title to be hers and hers alone. She can’t abide valid points (like the soldiers needing time to recouperate after a devastating battle) being raised to the point Jon has to step in and placate her. She demanded Jon keep his parentage a secret with a veiled threat to Jon’s family if he tells them, because she cares more about the Throne than the happiness of the man she claims to love.

Frankly, I think the reason Sansa’s never trusted Dany is that; after Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsey; she’s finally learned to recognize a psychopath when she sees one.

I get that some people are heavily invested in Dany, but this isn’t coming out of nowhere... she just had the cover from her victims being assholes for so long that it let people make excuses for it.

Let’s remember Dany’s first act of power was to burn alive a woman for the crime of seeking justice on the leader who ordered her village sacked, its men killed and who was raped repeatedly by his men. Just because she loved him didn’t make Khal Drogo any less a monster in need of stopping.

She crucified over a hundred people without even bothering to learn who had actually committed the crime and who had not. That’s straight out of the Roman conquest playbook... innocence or guilt is irrelevant so long as the resulting terror keeps the people in line.

She threw a man to her dragons to be burned alived and ripped apart, then admitted she didn’t know or care if the man was guilty or innocent; he was just an object lesson meant again to terrorize.

Then she compelled a man who’s father she’d had executed (for a crime he may have spoken out against) and witnessed her murdering a person of uncertain guilt into marrying her so as to quell the resistance to her rule.

Her first impulse on returning to Meereen is to take her dragons and burn entire cities full of enslaved innocents to the ground.

When prisoners of war at her mercy refuse to kneel, she burns them alive to terrify the rest into bowing.

“She’s always been a monster. You loved her anyway.”

And to reduce Varys’ argument why Jon is the better choice to “he has a penis” is disingenuous. He has the better claim by rules of succession. He’s a much more temperate leader with a history of making peace with his enemies and who naturally inspires others to follow him. He doesn’t seek power for its own sake. He can keep the North united with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. He’s grown up in Westeros and hasn’t been trying to conquer it. And he’s a man, which does make it easier to get other lords on board, but that’s just the capstone on a general talent stack, not his only advantage over Dany.

I can’t blame Sansa at all for leaking the info to Tyrion. She wants her family safe, Dany isn’t stable, and Jon is too great a threat to Dany’s reign even if the secret were kept for her to not eventually turn on him and the Starks.

Also, I’m going to have to side with Jon. A dire wolf ISN’T a dog. It’s a wild animal. Staying in Winterfell is what makes us feel good, but Ghost belongs in the Real North where he can run free and sire albino puppies with a dire wolf that isn’t his sister. And as Tormund said about this being goodbye... you never know. We’ve still got nearly three hours left in this story and Tormund isn’t leaving until the winter storms have passed.

[BooBear]

44 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

 As was Tormund toasting Dany, and Dany saluting Arya in turn.

Good times.

I enjoyed that but was disappointed we didn't get to see the gobsmacked Jon that his little Arya has grown up. 

I swear Jon is not in love with Dany. He couldn't even be bothered to bring her into the conversation.  

What was with Sansa last night? D&D really like to have girls fighting for no apparent reason don't they?  What is wrong with the North?  They make this massive deal over Jon on the dragon but, err, Dany brought the dragons and rode them and oh had zero vested interest in doing so. I mean really shut up. 

I truly don't see anything wrong with Dany asking Jon not to say anything. Truly it will just confuse things. She is right. Men like men so they will always want Jon as back up. But Jon is always "Ned" and just can't keep his mouth shut. 

The funeral scene was nice and I enjoyed Jon lighting up Leanna Mormont but I wanted a moment with Ed. 

Tyrion is totally betraying Dany.  It was best for Cersi that they have a meeting so that she could kill Missandei right in front of her. But everyone knew that was pointless for Dany. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, watchTV said:

Dany was headed to Dragonstone when they were ambushed. No, she couldn't have retaliated by going behind the ships or directly above them because the harpoons could turn just like Bronn demonstrated when it was first used. What I want to know is why Dany went to Cersei with her last dragon and some of her people? That was a very vulnerable position. And why didn't Cersei just slaughter them all?

Some observations on here:

1. Earlier in the episode, Dany just lost a dragon (her child), Jorah, all Dothrakis, and a large number of unsullied. They all celebrate around Jon while she sits mostly by herself only a few feet away. Then add Sansa's hostility towards her. That must feel isolated and unappreciated after what she's sacrificed.

2. Sansa's perspective is she trust's no one outside her blood circle and Brienne. She lost her father, mother, and brothers to betrayal. She witnesses first hand all the scheming and manipulation from Baelish and Cersei. She believes a Stark is better in power and is untrusting of Dany who is famously known as daughter of the mad king. Dany rushing to battle Cersei reinforces she is not the best leader in her eyes.

3. Jon's just inherently good. It is his strength and weakness. It's what got him killed. He's also humble and loyal to a fault. He's accommodating Dany too much with rushed decisions. But that dismissal of ghost was really odd.

Sansa doesn't want A Stark in power.  She wants Sansa Stark to be in power.  She has resented, undermined and resisted Jon, from the start, the same as she has done with Dany.

Sansa is not afraid of Dany being another Cersei.  Sansa IS an off brand Cersei/Littlefinger self centered manipulator.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

That’s what I kept saying. The NK was a common enemy. He was as much an enemy to Winterfell/the North as he was to the realm that Danny says is hers, which means he’s her enemy too.

I agree. If Dany really believes that she is the ruler of the seven kingdoms, which includes the North, then it is her duty to protect ALL of her people aka stopping the Night King from killing them/turning them into wights.

6 hours ago, Law Mom said:

Sansa seems to be the only one who actually listens to her advisors. I respect someone who says “I don’t know but I’ll find out.”

This is true for me too. At my first job, one of the things I was taught was that if you don't know the answer to a question (whether it's from your boss, someone you're supervising, or a customer), the correct answer is, "I don't know, but let me find out." Sansa didn't lie and pull a random number out of her ass. She didn't stutter and hem and haw. She said she didn't know but that she would ask someone who did.

The reason that I'm not on the Dany train right now is that she seems to have as little regard for the smallfolk as Cersei. These are YOUR PEOPLE so you should be doing everything in your power to keep them happy, safe, well fed, etc. Instead Cersei and Dany seem to think of them as disposable or cannon fodder. Cersei is willing to let thousands die to make Dany look like she's being the aggressor and Dany is willing to let all those people burn because Cersei had Missandei beheaded.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

What I'd like to see is Gendry, or anyone, make Drogon armor.

Or at least outfit Drogon with enough plating to protect his vital areas.

Unless there is Vibranium around, the amount of armour required would change Drogon from a Ferrari to a Yugo...

[TwistedandBored]

Seeing Tormund and the others praise Jon for riding a dragon and saying he should be a king because of it while Daenerys was high-key felt a lot like real life & a reflection of gender bias. 

Also, Missandei’s dying and her last words being Dracarys made me super emotional. 

D&D killing their only main POC female to make sure Daenerys goes mad. But hey it’s not like they basically used majority of Dany’s brown and black people to get slaughtered by the Night for the racist Northerners...oh wait they did that too. Sigh

You know, I am going to watch the last 2 episodes and just be done with all things GoT. What a mess. 

[Advance35]

Quote

The main issue with making the north independent is that while Jon could be trusted to keep the peace with Westeros, would his sons or grandsons? His descendants would have claims to the Iron Throne every bit as strong as Jon's, based on their descent from Rhaegar, and there is no guarantee they'd be motivated by a sense of honor or familial love for their relative on that other throne.

And Jon doesn't have the grit to look after the North on the Political Stage.  Dany eyes get a little tearful and to make her "feel" better, he immediately shoots down Sansa's logical and prudent idea, of giving the soldiers time to rest and recuperate.   She wasn't even asking that anyone take her word for it and advised that they speak to the generals, but Dany went "Waaaaaaaaaah." And Jon's automatic response was "Sansa, sit down and shut up."

He wouldn't be looking after anyone and would do no good for the North or House Stark even if he and Dany do marry.   Sansa knows this, which is why their coupledom doesn't reassure her.  Dany's smug look to Sansa being publicly put in her place was also probably a small part of why Sansa was happy to throw her little poisoned pill into Dany's campaign.  She's hoping to kill Dany's reign slowly.  Let her defeat Cersei but hoping this is the beginning of the end for the "Dragon Queen."

[UNOSEZ]

35 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

So, Shadow Queen it is. She’s so insecure in her power that she doesn’t care how many of the kingdoms declare for her, because without the Iron Throne Cersei still gets to call herself A queen (not even THE Queen... Dany needs that title to be hers and hers alone. She can’t abide valid points (like the soldiers needing time to recouperate after a devastating battle) being raised to the point Jon has to step in and placate her. She demanded Jon keep his parentage a secret with a veiled threat to Jon’s family if he tells them, because she cares more about the Throne than the happiness of the man she claims to love.

Frankly, I think the reason Sansa’s never trusted Dany is that; after Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsey; she’s finally learned to recognize a psychopath when she sees one.

I get that some people are heavily invested in Dany, but this isn’t coming out of nowhere... she just had the cover from her victims being assholes for so long that it let people make excuses for it.

Let’s remember Dany’s first act of power was to burn alive a woman for the crime of seeking justice on the leader who ordered her village sacked, its men killed and who was raped repeatedly by his men. Just because she loved him didn’t make Khal Drogo any less a monster in need of stopping.

She crucified over a hundred people without even bothering to learn who had actually committed the crime and who had not. That’s straight out of the Roman conquest playbook... innocence or guilt is irrelevant so long as the resulting terror keeps the people in line.

She threw a man to her dragons to be burned alived and ripped apart, then admitted she didn’t know or care if the man was guilty or innocent; he was just an object lesson meant again to terrorize.

Then she compelled a man who’s father she’d had executed (for a crime he may have spoken out against) and witnessed her murdering a person of uncertain guilt into marrying her so as to quell the resistance to her rule.

Her first impulse on returning to Meereen is to take her dragons and burn entire cities full of enslaved innocents to the ground.

When prisoners of war at her mercy refuse to kneel, she burns them alive to terrify the rest into bowing.

“She’s always been a monster. You loved her anyway.”

And to reduce Varys’ argument why Jon is the better choice to “he has a penis” is disingenuous. He has the better claim by rules of succession. He’s a much more temperate leader with a history of making peace with his enemies and who naturally inspires others to follow him. He doesn’t seek power for its own sake. He can keep the North united with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. He’s grown up in Westeros and hasn’t been trying to conquer it. And he’s a man, which does make it easier to get other lords on board, but that’s just the capstone on a general talent stack, not his only advantage over Dany.

I can’t blame Sansa at all for leaking the info to Tyrion. She wants her family safe, Dany isn’t stable, and Jon is too great a threat to Dany’s reign even if the secret were kept for her to not eventually turn on him and the Starks.

Also, I’m going to have to side with Jon. A dire wolf ISN’T a dog. It’s a wild animal. Staying in Winterfell is what makes us feel good, but Ghost belongs in the Real North where he can run free and sire albino puppies with a dire wolf that isn’t his sister. And as Tormund said about this being goodbye... you never know. We’ve still got nearly three hours left in this story and Tormund isn’t leaving until the winter storms have passed.

She also burned all those people at the Khalasar.. And by my count has had three white savior messiah moments which always rubbed me the wrong way... All these posts about character assassination had me scratching my head... Because the character I've been watching all these years is the one you've described.... I also don't see where she's been betrayed lately.. Sure her hand maiden in like season two tried to steal her dragons but that's it... I haven't always loved Sansa.. And for all her faults I don't hate Dany... Bit if ppl want to start adding up who's right and who's wrong and start putting down characters like Jon.. Then I'll have to claim loudly for the Starks

[millennium]

For a moment there, I thought Tyrion and Qyburn would engage in Hand to Hand combat.

[UNOSEZ]

7 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

Seeing Tormund and the others praise Jon for riding a dragon and saying he should be a king because of it while Daenerys was high-key felt a lot like real life & a reflection of gender bias. 

If someone else had said this.. Maybe but tormund is Jon's guy he's been in battle after battle with Jon.. Wildlings don't seem to have any issues with female leadership.. This was about Jon the human.. Not Jon the man... He saw Jon's dead body he saw him come back he saw him put mance out of his misery.. He saw him at hardhome fight to save the lives of his enemies.. If Tormund knows anything of Dany.. Its she seems to only talk about the iron throne and what her rightful place is... But the free folk dont kneel and if they did it wouldnt be for her... It would be for him... The person the northerners named King 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, Drogo said:

we see you, House of Payne.

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

He came to get down, he came to get down 😉 

(ha, he really did)

So get out your seat and jump around!

[Soup333]

31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa doesn't want A Stark in power.  She wants Sansa Stark to be in power.  She has resented, undermined and resisted Jon, from the start, the same as she has done with Dany.

Sansa is not afraid of Dany being another Cersei.  Sansa IS an off brand Cersei/Littlefinger self centered manipulator.

Sansa said as much when she spoke to the hound. Her worldview was shaped by the monsters in her past. Dany was right in this. She couldn’t even acknowledge that they needed Daenerys’ armies and her dragons to defeat the NK. Arya could see that but Sansa, great strategist of the North, refused to accept that truth.

If Jon was King, he’d be in King’s Landing, regardless of if he wanted it or not, and SHE would be ruling the north. That’s what Sansa wants. The path is clear for her now. Bran doesn’t want it, neither does Arya and as far as she’s concerned Jon is the rightful heir. Dany was right in this as well.

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but why didn’t Euron leave some troops on the shore? The survivors had nowhere else to go and they’d have been easy targets. Everyone else would have been dead even if they didn’t get Daenerys. 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Rheagar was older than Dany so Rheagar and his children would always be ahead of Dany in the line of succession regardless of their gender.

Right, if Dany was a man, he would still be behind Jon in the line of succession.

I am not sure what would happen if Dany had been born before Rhaegar.  It is possible that Jon would then be ahead of her because of their genders.  But, that is a moot point, as Jon is first in line based upon primogeniture.

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, millennium said:

For a moment there, I thought Tyrion and Qyburn would engage in Hand to Hand combat.

"You and I can settle this right now between the two of us and save thousands of lives.  We'll play a game.  I make a statement about you and if it is true, you drink....". 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Sansa said as much when she spoke to the hound. Her worldview was shaped by the monsters in her past. Dany was right in this. She couldn’t even acknowledge that they needed Daenerys’ armies and her dragons to defeat the NK. Arya could see that but Sansa, great strategist of the North, refused to accept that truth.

If Jon was King, he’d be in King’s Landing, regardless of if he wanted it or not, and SHE would be ruling the north. That’s what Sansa wants. The path is clear for her now. Bran doesn’t want it, neither does Arya and as far as she’s concerned Jon is the rightful heir. Dany was right in this as well.

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but why didn’t Euron leave some troops on the shore? The survivors had nowhere else to go and they’d have been easy targets. Everyone else would have been dead even if they didn’t get Daenerys. 

Good point about Sansa.

As for Euron's strategy blunder, I think it was the same reason that Dany didn't fly her dragons high above Giant Crossbow range to scout out the area before bringing her fleet to Dragonstone.  Sensible tactics by either side would have made the plot twist impossible.

[cambridgeguy]

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but why didn’t Euron leave some troops on the shore? The survivors had nowhere else to go and they’d have been easy targets. Everyone else would have been dead even if they didn’t get Daenerys.  

For the same reason some of the GC wasn't waiting inside the castle at Dragonstone?

Why do I get the feeling Jon is going to wish he had gone north with Ghost and Tormund?  His family thinks he's a moron, the Northerners fluctuate between thinking he's great and he's an idiot, his family openly doubts him at every turn, and the woman he loves turns out to be his aunt AND is always going to be suspicious of him. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Another ridiculous plot point.  Why didn't Cersei have her archers open fire on Tyrion?  If she was willing to incur Dany's wrath by killing her best friend, why not kill the baby brother she has wanted to kill since his birth?

The only thing I can think of is that she thinks Tyrion is such a fool that he will continue to protect her from Dany.

[Constantinople]

Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule? - Varys

Because that theory worked out so well with Robert Baratheon

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I understand that HBO is trying to keep EVERYTHING about the final season under wraps, but it's so annoying that they aren't even releasing the episode titles until after the episodes actually air.

I was already thinking about the last of the Starks when Arya said it in the godswood because as I looked around at the four siblings (I don't care if technically Jon is their cousin - they were raised as the Stark siblings), I wondered if this is really the last of their house. Even if all four of them survive the big upcoming battle, will any of them marry and have children? Arya seems unlikely to ever want to marry and settle down. Bran is now the three eyed raven - imagine some poor girl having to marry him and spend a lifetime watching him stare off into space. Sansa is so emotionally scarred from Ramsay's abuse that I don't know if she'll ever marry and have sex (although on the other hand, I do see her being the one sibling most willing to do her duty and produce an heir for the sake of their house). Jon was out of the running when he was in the Night's Watch but now that he's out, he's in love with his aunt (and didn't the witch lady tell Dany she can't have any more kids? Then again, that witch wasn't very trustworthy so maybe she was lying).

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

Jon:  "Guys, I've been having sex with my aunt.  But it's okay, because we're Targaryens".

Although we were cheated on Sansa and Arya's reactions to this news, I imagined it looked something like this:

8 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

In 8x02 Tyrion told Jaime that he always knew what Cersei was but he loved her anyway. Tyrion is doing the exact same thing with Daenerys. Sansa, Tyrion, Varys, Arya, Bran, Sam and even Jon to some degree can all see it, but Tyrion and Jon are closing their eyes to the truth. And thousands of innocent people will suffer for it. 

So true. And A+ for the awesome username!

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Another ridiculous plot point.  Why didn't Cersei have her archers open fire on Tyrion?  If she was willing to incur Dany's wrath by killing her best friend, why not kill the baby brother she has wanted to kill since his birth?

The only thing I can think of is that she thinks Tyrion is such a fool that he will continue to protect her from Dany.

I assumed it was because this was a diplomatic meeting and there are certain protocols in place that make it unsporting to murder someone unless they are actively attacking someone. It's like the GoT version of parley.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point about Sansa.

As for Euron's strategy blunder, I think it was the same reason that Dany didn't fly her dragons high above Giant Crossbow range to scout out the area before bringing her fleet to Dragonstone.  Sensible tactics by either side would have made the plot twist impossible.

Honest to goodness, the writer explanation for the entire last half hour, as told in Inside, is that Dany "forgot" about the Iron fleet. 

These people aren't even trying at this point, and if the writers don't care, why should the audience?

[Chaos Theory]

My major issue with the whole plan what’s that The Starks were asking for time not withholding their troops.  The damn battle had wiped out Dany’s troops and the Winterfell troops were still bloody and tired and Dany was demanding a battle like the very next day....against Kings Landing.  Not a place you want to attack half assed but hey let’s attack it half assed with tired troops. 

What could possibly go wrong?

Edited May 6, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[HunterHunted]

Why does everybody act like Dany's only option against Cersei is a frontal assault? This is the Yunkai-est situation ever, which is made easier because Cersei has actually flung open the doors to Westeros to offer protection and shelter. Dany and Jon just need a couple of folks to enter Kings Landing to set some fires and frustrate efforts while the combined forces are attacking. If the infiltration group happens to find some wildfire and use it strategically at the Red Keep, so much the better.

[mikal768]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Honest to goodness, the writer explanation for the entire last half hour, as told in Inside, is that Dany "forgot" about the Iron fleet. 

These people aren't even trying at this point, and if the writers don't care, why should the audience?

Well maybe they forgot about the fleet due to the iron islands being supposedly neutralized by their allies return to them? 

[Soup333]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Honest to goodness, the writer explanation for the entire last half hour, as told in Inside, is that Dany "forgot" about the Iron fleet. 

These people aren't even trying at this point, and if the writers don't care, why should the audience?

Hmm. Just completely forgot about the same fleet that practically destroyed two of her allies and ferried mercenaries over to strengthen Cersei’s army. Reasonable.  

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, should have known that last week was only the beginning of the bloodshed.  Fare thee well, Rheagal and Missandi.  Sucks that another dragon bites it, especially at the hands of fucking Euron Greyjoy, who is the absolute worst.  And while a supporting character, Missandi was probably one of the few that Dany completely trusted, and now she's pretty much lost all of her older allies, outside of Grey Worm.  Not good for the former Khaleesi!

Granted, none of the "heroes" really come off looking good here, and I'm really starting to think all of this is going to end with no one winning.  In a perfect world, a Jon/Dany partnership/marriage will probably work best, but I just don't see Dany's pride and ego allowing it to happen, Jon is just too much of a pushover at this point, and then there is Sansa who I think it just never, ever going to trust or like Dany, and will always be finding ways to undermine her, even if it did happen.  Factor in Varys going back to his meddling ways and Tyrion just flat-out dropping the ball as an advisor now, and I do not see a light at the end of this tunnel.  The only hope now is that they'll take Cersei down with them.

Speaking of which, as much as I'm rooting against her, why didn't Cersei simply try and take out Dany and her army with those ballistas?  They seemed to be in range and Cersei clearly wouldn't give a shit about going back on any words.  Just felt out of character for her.

The opening funeral scene was great.  While I know Kit Harrington gets some deserved criticism for his acting at times, I thought he sold the speech well.

The drunken wake was close to perfection.  Complete with hook-ups (Jaime/Brienne!), heartbreak (oh, Gendry!), drinking games, and... well, drinking in general.  Good to know that if these characters lived in the modern world, Tormund would probably master the art of the "keg-stand."

Hey, Ghost is alive!  And... Jon's leaving him behind for good.  Sorry, Ghost, budget doesn't allow you to be here for more than a few seconds!

Dany really was dumb to not even hear Sansa out about making sure the soldiers were rested and ready to fight again.  I still don't think she is a tyrant in the sense that she goes out of her way to hurt and torment people, but she really doesn't seem to care about their well-being, if it messes up her plans.

So, Bronn is more or less trying to play both sides, now?  Yeah, he's probably going to end up getting himself killed.  Or the complete opposite, and he'll actually somehow come out better than everyone else.  You can never really tell with him.

I know she's also had her fair share of criticism, but I thought Emilia Clarke really killed it in this episode: especially that final shot.

So, the "final" war will likely happen next week.  I'm guessing that either Arya/Hound or Jaimie will end up being a spoiler, and the deciding factor. 

[DrSpaceman]

Watching those Dragons go against those weapons reminds me of Wrath of Khan, where they mentioned Khan thinks two dimensionally in his strategies. 

How about you NOT fly straight at the damn weapon?  Maybe swerve, try to come from the side, not be an easy target. 

I think Jamie is going to kill Cersei.  Have thought that for a long time, now it will come to fruition.  Short of Arya using one of her masks, he is the only one that can get close enough to kill her outside an obvious attack. 

Plus it would complete his story arc, from taking the throne from the Targaryens by killing one to giving it back to them by killing his sister. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

My major issue with the whole plan what’s that The Starks were asking for time not withholding their troops.  The damn battle had wiped out Dany’s troops and the Winterfell troops were still bloody and tired and Danny was demanding a battle like the very next day....against Kings Landing.  Not a place you want to attack half assed but hey let’s attack it half assed with tired troops. 

What could possibly go wrong?

Don't you know? Dany forgot about KL having walls, and humans needing rest.

That's literally the explanation for everything from this point forward. Anybody who needs to forgot anything to advance the plot will do so. By the last episode, if somebody needs to die to get to the writers' preferred outcome, the writers can just have that character forget to breathe!

They aren't even writing fiction at this point. They are just checking boxes.

[Chaos Theory]

I know a lot  of people dislike Sansa but she is not a warrior.  She has spent most of the show being passed around from one psychopath to another.  She probably has one hell of a bullshit meter.   I am pretty sure she thinks Dany is bull shitting her she just doesn’t know what do with it.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[DrSpaceman]

Either Dany or John will have to die, so the other can rule with no complicated or clear challenge to the throne. 

Poor Gendry.  But you knew what Arya's answer would be.  She said it way back in season one

[MarySNJ]

Regarding Ghost, back in earlier seasons they started with real dogs, then moved to CGI with a green tennis ball standing in as Ghost. I think this season they have just CGI’ed him in wherever they could find a spot for him and I wondered if they even bothered to put a marker for where he was supposed to stand. I think he looks like an afterthought and I wondered if he was added only in CGI later.

If Kit didn’t know where Ghost was supposed to be, I don’t know how he could have pet him. But it still looked like Jon didn’t care about Ghost which makes me sad. 

[BooBear]

27 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Another ridiculous plot point.  Why didn't Cersei have her archers open fire on Tyrion?  If she was willing to incur Dany's wrath by killing her best friend, why not kill the baby brother she has wanted to kill since his birth?

The only thing I can think of is that she thinks Tyrion is such a fool that he will continue to protect her from Dany.

or  Tyrion is secretly helping Cersei 

[GodsBeloved]

7 hours ago, LanceM said:

It is not that Dany restrianed herself it is more like she looked at her watch and saw there was only 5 minutes left in the episode so she postponed burning his ships until next week. lol

Sounds about right.

I can't think of a logical reason why Danearys didn't circle around to the back and torch their behinds. Maybe on a rewatch something will come to me but right now I got nothing.