S08.E03: The Long Night

[Lady Iris]

11 hours ago, GraceK said:

Was I the only one who laughed when Jon was rushing to get to Bran and saw Sam crying while he was swarmed by wights screaming for help and just left him? 😂

Fear not! You are not alone! Jon was just like "whatevs, nothing new, gotta run."

I have loved Arya Stark since day one. I am so proud of her character. Forever bad ass!

I am surprised that the AotD and NK are gone. I thought they were headed for Kings Landing. I'm not displeased just surprised. Cersei ought to be a walk in the park compared to what they all just went through? Right?

Tormund made it out alive right? Pod? Seemed odd that we got a clear shot of Gendry towards the end to know he was still in it.

Brienne is the Monica Seles of Westeros. But for her distinctive screaming while battling I would've missed her.

[Scarlett45]

I saw Brienne was stabbed- did she die? And what about Gilly?

[Bannon]

9 hours ago, yellowfred said:

Okay, so I guess I'm in the minority, but I went into this episode fully expecting the whole Night King and Army of the Dead stuff to be dealt with by the end of the episode.  Like, I get that the White Walkers were a huge threat, and one that's been building in power since the beginning of the series, but, as an enemy, they're also just not that interesting.  For a couple seasons now, the refrain has been "nothing matters if we don't defeat the White Walkers," which, while true, doesn't make for a particularly nuanced story.  I'm not saying we're gonna get that with the fight for the Iron Throne, but there's at least a lot more potential for it. 

I do feel like the scenes in the crypts had a lot of wasted potential.  I think the basic premise of the biggest battle in history happening right above your head while you can't do anything is an interesting one.  I think back to the scenes with Cersei and Sansa in the holdfast during Blackwater, which, in my opinion, were some of the best scenes in that episode.  By comparison, the scenes in the crypts just felt underwhelming. 

As far as Arya being the one to kill the Night King, I thought it was perfect.  Like, as much as Jon was responsible for bringing these armies together, Arya's the one who's established herself as maybe the best fighter in Westeros, and the one most likely to be overlooked by the Night King until it was too late.

Before the season started, I said that it made the most sense, dramatically speaking, for the NK to get clipped at Winterfell, simply because the plot convolutions needed to have the NK survive Winterfell, and still have major characters get back to King's Landing to confront Cersei, were ridiculous. I really was dreading the sort of plot stupidity that my least favorite episode, Beyond the Wall, so prominently featured.

The spoilers I read suggested the NK makes it to Kings Landing, so eventually, I conjured a scenario that just barely fell short of utter nonsense, but I'm glad the writers kept it more straightforward, and removed the NK and the AotD at Winterfell. Not being a huge fan of zombie plots (they really are kind of tedious, and the NK was kind of tedious to me) I look forward to human villains, with human complexities in the final three episodes. Kind of a shame that The Mountain has been zombified.

As to The Long Night as a stand alone episode, I guess I'd give it a somewhat charitable B, at best. Again, zombie storylines don't really make for great battle dramatizations, because emotions are integral to what makes battles compelling, and removing emotions from one side's combatants makes it a lot less interesting. Even the Orcs in the Lord of the Rings universe were capable of experiencing fear and uncertainty, whereas an unthinking zombie is fundamentally far less interesting, at least to me.

[sacrebleu]

so much to process.

I'll admit-- I saw (and bought) the theory about the Night King sending troops to Winterfell as a decoy and heading to Kings Landing on Viseryon. Decoy troops deplete the Northern forces, and NK picks up a few more troops by decimating and resurrecting the Golden Company then heading back North.

I truly expected the last battle to be living vs dead-- and not just for the throne-- but the name of the show is the name of the show.

I just want to give the due respect to the Dothraki-- it's a shame they were the red shirts here. They were Dany's first supporters-- and let's not forget-- without marrying Drogo-- she never would have gotten her hands on those dragon eggs to begin with.

I also think-- with the Dothraki all but wiped out-- the North is probably going to survive on fine Dothraki horse meat for the duration of winter-- so again, the Dothraki are saving the North.

[KungFuBunny]

I predicted Arya being the one to kill the NK in the last episode, but I thought it would be her sitting in the wheelchair posing as Bran. The FM can take on a face that isn't dead, right? I really thought it was her in the chair, with the slow way the NK approached and gave a look to Bran - something isn't right here.

When Bran said to Theon I'm going to go now...where the eff did he go?

I also understand how the wights basically came at Theon slowly, they were just holding him at bay until the NK came along.

What I didn't get was how slowly the wights went at Jorah and when they rose up at Jon. In other scenes - the wights overwhelm their victims by their sheer number. Was this just for dramatical purposes? I also didn't like that Dany didn't seem to have any basic training in "combat" - she stood their and squealed waiting for Jorah to fend the wights off.

The dead who rose in the crypts should have been more decayed. I was expecting a headless Ned Stark and boy Rickon.

Loved the scene of Tyrion and Sansa in the crypt.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I predicted Arya being the one to kill the NK in the last episode, but I thought it would be her sitting in the wheelchair posing as Bran. The FM can take on a face that isn't dead, right? I really thought it was her in the chair, with the slow way the NK approached and gave a look to Bran - something isn't right here.

When Bran said to Theon I'm going to go now...where the eff did he go?

I also understand how the wights basically came at Theon slowly, they were just holding him at bay until the NK came along.

What I didn't get was how slowly the wights went at Jorah and when they rose up at Jon. In other scenes - the wights overwhelm their victims by their sheer number. Was this just for dramatical purposes? I also didn't like that Dany didn't seem to have any basic training in "combat" - she stood their and squealed waiting for Jorah to fend the wights off.

The dead who rose in the crypts should have been more decayed. I was expecting a headless Ned Stark and boy Rickon.

Loved the scene of Tyrion and Sansa in the crypt.

Yeah, it's just a very typical Game of Thrones writing weakness, to have the combatants take whatever aporoach the writers want, to serve up the desired visuals. The zombies overwhelm in sheer numbers, until the writers want a major character to be featured; then the zombies attack one at a time. It's similar to the Battle of the Bastards, where everybody in Jon's army has their I.Q. lowered to the mid 50s, so nobody can figure out what sort of weapon a giant should wield against shield and pikemen. If you are going to enjoy these battle episodes at all, you just have to accept the dumbmifying of the combatants, and the clumsy plot mechanics. I've watched this show all these years due to it's strenghts, while taking the weaknesses in stride.

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, Vella said:

Yes, that felt so frustrating. Sansa did NOTHING to comfort or guide or anything for the people in the crypt. Those are HER people and she can't bring herself to lead them in any way and when the dead attacked, she ran and hid. So did Tyrion. Varys did more simply by taking a child's hand in comfort. It was so aggravating to watch her be little more than a coward in the face of children screaming for their lives.  Not because she needs to fight like Arya but because she needs to do SOMETHING.

This frustrated me too. I’ve been neutral in the Sansa v. Dany feud online and I don’t expect heroics from Sansa because she’s not a combatant, but there are other ways to show leadership. I feel like she took Cersei’s lessons a little too much to heart in her apparent irritation and frustration with being cooped up but that Debbie Downer pep talk (anti-pep talk?) really didn’t help anyone stuck with her in the crypts. I get that she felt helpless but she kind of lost me when she started dissing “the Dragon Queen” who was trying to protect the realm and defend all the living... I’m glad Missandei said something. 

Of course, that was before the dead in the crypts started crawling out of their graves so maybe Sansa will have a different attitude about it now that the battle is done. I doubt it but we’ll see.

ETA: perhaps Sansa will consider what Cersei would do to the North if Daenerys and Jon can’t depose her. Sansa was able to have a frank conversation with Dany about Northern independence. I sincerely doubt Cersei would have let Sansa would get to make that pitch

Edited April 29, 2019 by MarySNJ

[go4luca]

"You're a good man."

Alfie did such a brilliant job with his role.

[Hanahope]

34 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I predicted Arya being the one to kill the NK in the last episode, but I thought it would be her sitting in the wheelchair posing as Bran. The FM can take on a face that isn't dead, right? I really thought it was her in the chair, with the slow way the NK approached and gave a look to Bran - something isn't right here.

When Bran said to Theon I'm going to go now...where the eff did he go?

I don't think she can take a living face. They have to prepare a body, which involves removing the face I believe.  We've never seen her in a living person's face.

Bran worged out into a raven to, idk, watch?  know when the NK would arrive?  I have no clue what his purpose was except to draw the NK out, on the ground, and somewhat on his own.  And Bran's thing about saving the memories. For what exactly?  Its not like Westeros was tapping the knowledge of the 3-eyed raven previously.  

[MaggieG]

Did anyone else think "Avengers, assemble" when Brienne/Jaime/Gendry/Tormund etc where lined up, ready to face the dead? Just me?

[screamin]

I'm still a bit annoyed at how Arya basically dropped out of the sky onto the NK. I know the director wanted her intervention to come as an awesome surprise, but there's ways to telegraph how it's being done without giving the game away. Like, we see Arya running along the wall to the Godswood, seeing the defenders of Bran begin to drop, one by one, makes a squirrel-like leap to the nearest tree, slips and nearly falls, she looks desperate, she'll never get there like this!...and then cut to what we saw filmed until her appearance.

[ChromaKelly]

Something that's bugging me now is that Cersei never got to see exactly what the AOTD and Night King were, and why everyone else was so worried about them. Now she'll be like, eh, what was the big deal?

[Snowball II]

Well, Arya had her Eowyn moment.  I can't decide if I like it, or if it was fan-service.  I think I'm learning towards the latter.  No matter how basic it would have been, I still think Jon should have been the one to kill the Night King.

[WatchrTina]

Random Game-of-Thrones-related thought of the morning:   When Jame and Brianne are fighting back-to-back on the battlements, the two halves of "Ice" -- the Stark family Valyrian steel sword -- are united once again in the defense of Winterfell.  Brienne is wielding Oath-keeper and Jamie is wielding Widow's Wail.

I had forgotten that until it was pointed out in this video by Alt-Shift-X (which is their commentary on the prior episode):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKqcsIYBFxY&feature=em-uploademail

Edited May 3, 2019 by WatchrTina

[FemmyV]

14 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think we can all agree that Jaime is the valonqr.

Current fancy: Jaime + Tyrion together. I get to hope this because so many other so-called spoilers have leaked out, that turned out to be 100% incorrect.

14 hours ago, Leila6 said:

We’re to believe that Arya got past all those white walkers with literally none of them seeing her or stopping her? What, did she fly through the trees? Total bullshit.

On re-watch, look for the breeze that made one of the white walkers look around for its unseen source. Somehow, either jumping out of the Weirwood tree, or into one, Arya made that breeze happen.
 

14 hours ago, go4luca said:

Watching all those Dothraki blade flames go out and the silence that followed set the entire episode up brilliantly.

Even though I knew our heroes were going to live and go on to KL, that still set me up to feel everyone was doomed, anyway. Excellent film-making. And Miguel Sapotchnik is never going to want for work.

14 hours ago, Tippi said:

I am disappointed that all this Prince Who Was Promised stuff has apparently turned out to be nothing, at least so far is Jon is concerned.  All this build up that Jon was something special pretty much evaporated with how this played out.  I love Arya, I'm fine with her killing the NK, but it seems to me that Jon should have been involved in the killing somehow.

IIRC, PWWP has really been negligible, overall. Yes, Melisandre and her prophecy, but it was never really emphasized, beyond Stannis's big season or two. And it's been a point, how badly Mel was getting things wrong, over and over again. So why couldn't she have been wrong all along? If it was just one more thing D and D decided was a distraction from clear-cut storytelling, in a visual medium, I'm okay with it.

14 hours ago, GraceK said:

Was I the only one who laughed when Jon was rushing to get to Bran and saw Sam crying while he was swarmed by wights screaming for help and just left him? 😂

I didn't laugh, but, I thought it was poignant and telling that Jon recognized he had to Big Picture thinking at that moment; everyone was fighting their hearts out, and Sam needed to put on his big boy shorts or get out of there.

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

From the previews, there doesn't appear to be any conflict between Jon and Dany, so that's good. 

I want to think that going through that battle together just makes/made their personal dilemma look tiny in comparison. As far as we know, Jon still doesn't want to be Kof7K, and whatever Northerners survived through the Long Night have Dany, all the sacrificed Dothraki and Unsullied to thank for keeping them alive until NK was killed, and if they don't recognize that, fuck 'em.

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think it says something about all the prophesy stuff.  It only has as much meaning or power as you choose to give it.  So there very well may be nothing to the valonqar thing (which I've never liked anyway) or Dany believing she's barren because another witch led her to think so.

In the flashback to Maggie the Frog, did Maggie tell Cersei about her death in the show? I don't recall that.

14 hours ago, Misplaced said:

and the knife drop from her left hand to her right? That is a direct callback to some episode where someone killed someone else and I can’t remember what or who. Ahhhhh I thought it was all Arya perfection.

Was it maybe the fight between Syrio vs Meryn Trant? Oberyn vs the Mountain?

13 hours ago, AshleyN said:

 I couldn't help but compare her behavior here to the Battle of the Blackwater, where she took charge of the people in the holdfast when Cersei couldn't be bothered, and found ways to use her skills as a "lady" to offer comfort and calm.

Blackwater was a different fight, altogether. Sansa knew what her fate would be, one way or the other, there. Live and get raped, or die and die at the hands of living people. Blackwater also didn't have waves where she'd hear all manner of battle scenes going on, and then, complete silence, leaving her to assume the absolute worst.

11 hours ago, Miles said:

I have to say, I really didn't like that. I would have loved if we had seen the Night King looking at Bran, him suddenly shattering and revealing that Arya was standing behind him, with the dagger in her hand. That would have shown off her increadible stealthing ability. Jumping at him screaming seems so out of character for her.

See above re: stealthing ability and the breeze she caused. If Arya hadn't screamed and made herself known exactly when she did, NK might not have turned around while he was vulnerable, and if he hadn't done that, he might not have exposed his weak spot to her.
 

10 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The main reason that Peter Jackson's trilogy wasn't a complete triumph for me was the excising of the Scouring of the Shire.  We get that now with the resumption of the fight for the Iron Throne.  While post-war was messy for the hobbits, it is less messy for everyone else in the book.  I think ASOIAF is meant to show the aftermath for everyone.

This, so much. The Scouring was important because it was the war the Hobbits had to fight on their own, without intervention by Wizards and Elves. If Drogon and Rheagol are still alive when all is said and done, or if they are the greatest factor in the final war, that will be a surprise to me.

4 hours ago, ACW said:

I have a strong feeling that A Man came over with the Golden Company, to deal with A Girl. Either because she's *really* broken the rules now (I mean, the Faceless Men literally *work for* the God of Death); or because she was trained specifically for this mission, and now it's done.

Either way, I wonder if the last word Arya will hear (or say) is "Today."

I have got to put my faith in GRRM's wife's threat re: if he kills off Arya. Between her and Jon, I think Jon is the more likely to wind up with his eyes permanently closed. He, too, is a wraith, after all.

eta: And, as pointed out below, Arya ought to be one of the God of Death's favorite people about now. The NK was robbing him. By killing him, Arya rested many, many names the GoD was counting on.

Edited April 29, 2019 by FemmyV

[benteen]

32 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Something that's bugging me now is that Cersei never got to see exactly what the AOTD and Night King were, and why everyone else was so worried about them. Now she'll be like, eh, what was the big deal?

It bothers me that this episode essentially made Cersei's decision to not fight in this battle be the smart one.

Edited April 29, 2019 by benteen

[Hanahope]

3 hours ago, ACW said:

I have a strong feeling that A Man came over with the Golden Company, to deal with A Girl. Either because she's *really* broken the rules now (I mean, the Faceless Men literally *work for* the God of Death); or because she was trained specifically for this mission, and now it's done.

Either way, I wonder if the last word Arya will hear (or say) is "Today."

I don't think so.  I'm not sure the God of Death really likes having a Night King raising the dead as he does.  Plus, the FM would all be out of a job if the NK flies across the Endless Sea on his dragon and starts to take out Essos.

But that doesn't mean we won't see A Man (though I think that story line is done), I just don't think he'll kill Arya.

[iMonrey]

Quote

She wasn't even doing her own job,even 15 year old Sansa knew to comfort the women and children during a battle but she doesn't now.

In Sansa's defense, she was in a much better position during the Battle of Blackwater. She knew that if Stannis won the war he would take care of her - in fact she would have been better off if his forces triumphed. This was a completely different situation where she knew everyone around her was probably going to die including herself.

[bluvelvet]

Now the scene in the first episode had some meaning. Jon commented to Arya that he hadn’t heard her and this was in broad daylight with a quiet atmosphere. It makes total sense to me that she would use that stealth to sneak up on the NK with night cover and a battle raging about. 

[Snowball II]

5 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Now the scene in the first episode had some meaning. Jon commented to Arya that he hadn’t heard her and this was in broad daylight with a quiet atmosphere. It makes total sense to me that she would use that stealth to sneak up on the NK with night cover and a battle raging about. 

The library scene with the wights was also a set-up to this.  Not only did it give the audience a few minutes of quiet from the constant battle noise, but it reminded us that Arya can move quickly and quietly, without being detected.  I think she has always had a natural ability to do so, like you say, but I think Syrio and Jaquen's training made her even better, so, props to those guys.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Fiver

[Tryangle]

I guess that the demise of Jorah means that the already very slim chance of Quaithe reappearing on the show has evaporated.

[benteen]

No ice spiders is a disappointment.

[huahaha]

14 hours ago, Misplaced said:

 I do wonder if the point is to kill off all the Houses? We’ve now lost Mormont, Tarley (but for Sam who I think is destined to be a Maester so Little Sam takes over?), Tyrell, Lannister (but for Cersei’s pregnancy 

The Lannister house definitely hasn't died out. Both Jamie and Tyrion carry the name and are alive to sire children.

[stagmania]

I've been stewing on the episode today and the more I think about it, the less I like the details and the resolution to the AOTD/NK plot. Things that are bugging me most:

• The entire idea that the AOTD was defeated the space of an hour or two. "The Long Night" was not even one full night, whereas many historical battles between mere humans last days or weeks. 
• We are never going to understand anything more about the NK, his motives, or how on earth he planned this attack for a thousand years only to go down so easy, by a single stab to the body (when another dragon-based weapon didn't work, for no reason they bothered to explain).
• Bran was completely useless. Like, what has been the point of any of his arc? Why didn't he use any of his powers to help?
• Jon was sidelined in a way that felt unsatisfying and out of step with him having a Big Destiny. I wish they had removed him from the fight more decisively, like with a major injury, rather than just having him make a few awkward aborted attempts to get to the NK.
• Why did Ghost disappear with the Dothraki (but apparently survived?). Why wasn't he fighting by Jon's side when he was on the ground?
• Everything in the crypts was extremely underwhelming. Where was Sansa's leadership? Why was the attack of the crypt corpses so lame? All the major characters just hid in a corner and listened to little kids get slaughtered, none of them tried to stand and fight or help each other. 
• There needed to be WAY more deaths. This is the conflict they've been building to for a decade - and only a few second tier characters died, and not even the most popular ones. And it seemed like a huge missed opportunity not to have any characters confronted with the zombie version of a loved one.
• The way this was written, Cersei was completely justified in letting the North handle the AOTD without her army, and will suffer no apparent consequences for refusing to help.

There were parts of this episode I really liked - Arya's whole arc, Dany actively fighting on both dragonback and the ground, Brienne and Jaime fighting together - but on the whole, I'm going to call this one a massive letdown.

[WatchrTina]

HBO has posted a behind-the-scenes video for this episode and it is AWESOME.  It's much more in-depth than the usual Inside-the-episode video. (That is also available -- it comes on automatically if you watch the episode on-demand.)

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3M0Xt97aFI

Edited April 29, 2019 by WatchrTina

[sacrebleu]

Quote

and the knife drop from her left hand to her right? That is a direct callback to some episode where someone killed someone else and I can’t remember what or who. Ahhhhh I thought it was all Arya perfection.

Idk about a specific battle scene-- but I saw it as a callback to her practice duel with Brianne last season-- when she performed a similar maneuver-- flipping the knife from one hand to the other to gain the upper hand.

[domina89]

13 hours ago, yellowfred said:

As far as Arya being the one to kill the Night King, I thought it was perfect.  Like, as much as Jon was responsible for bringing these armies together, Arya's the one who's established herself as maybe the best fighter in Westeros, and the one most likely to be overlooked by the Night King until it was too late.

I guess the Hound won't be making fun of her "water dancing" anymore, eh?

[benteen]

I forgot one other thing.  The scene that probably annoyed me the most had to be after Dany saves Jon and she just LINGERS THERE ON THE GROUND with her dragon while the Dead come swarming towards her.  What the hell was she doing?  Get the hell off of the ground!  Definitely Dany's worst moment last night.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I don't think so.  I'm not sure the God of Death really likes having a Night King raising the dead as he does.  Plus, the FM would all be out of a job if the NK flies across the Endless Sea on his dragon and starts to take out Essos.

But that doesn't mean we won't see A Man (though I think that story line is done), I just don't think he'll kill Arya.

My speculation is that A Man was hired by Cersei to kill Daenerys and/or Jon, will use the face of the Waif, and will be recognized by Arya Stark of Winterfell who will kill A Man. 

[festivus]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

It bothers me that this episode essentially made Cersei's decision to not fight in this battle be the smart one.

It won't be though. She lost Jaime because of it and I think that will probably be her downfall. She doesn't ever seem to look at the bigger picture. If she really thinks sending Bronn to take him out is a good decision then she hasn't been paying attention.

I'll probably never make it through the other thread so I'll post here. The Arya moment was a shocker for me and if I had been paying attention I would have seen that coming. They got me but I'm fine with it because that shit was awesome. My favorite moments were her running through the halls of Winterfell. So horror movie-esque, I loved it.

I already had Jorah and Theon in my 100% deadpool so I was just glad to see they went out the way they would want to, as honorable men once again.

Thanks god, my love Brienne lives! Someone has to write Jaime's page after all. 😘

[iMonrey]

Quote

There needed to be WAY more deaths. This is the conflict they've been building to for a decade - and only a few second tier characters died, and not even the most popular ones. And it seemed like a huge missed opportunity not to have any characters confronted with the zombie version of a loved one.

I do agree it felt like a bit of a cheat that more major characters didn't die. Theon and Jorah, and that's really it besides some tertiary characters I never really cared about. It would have been a much bigger emotional punch in the gut if Arya had died taking out the Night King, for example, or Bran or Jon or Dany. The show didn't really have the guts to go there and I'm kind of surprised.

[FormerMod-a1]

11 minutes ago, benteen said:

I forgot one other thing.  The scene that probably annoyed me the most had to be after Dany saves Jon and she just LINGERS THERE ON THE GROUND with her dragon while the Dead come swarming towards her.  What the hell was she doing?  Get the hell off of the ground!  Definitely Dany's worst moment last night.

I thought she did that to give him cover. To block the wights with Drogon.  Did he even say that she should go, and she said something about that?

[WatchrTina]

44 minutes ago, benteen said:

I forgot one other thing.  The scene that probably annoyed me the most had to be after Dany saves Jon and she just LINGERS THERE ON THE GROUND with her dragon while the Dead come swarming towards her.  What the hell was she doing?  Get the hell off of the ground!  Definitely Dany's worst moment last night.

Well I try to cut Dany some slack because she had just saved Jon from a gruesome death and she's the tiniest bit distracted by what a close call that was. It was not her finest moment in terms of being a cold, calculating, dragon-back warrior -- but perhaps it did reveal her genuine love for Jon.

32 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I thought she did that to give him cover. To block the wights with Drogon.  Did he even say that she should go, and she said something about that?

He yelled "Bran" to tell her what he was trying to accomplish and she yelled "Go!"

ETA: Having watched the two behind-the-scenes videos (I posted the link to the longer one above) I have to say I think they filmed a LOT more in the crypt and then cut most of it in favor of focusing on Sansa & Tyrion.  In the BTS video they talk about how the episode moves through various genres, beginning with suspense as everyone awaits the battle and then the Dothraki are defeated in the far-way dark, moving to horror (Arya's tiptoe through the library), and then swinging into full-on action.  I suspect the un-dead in the crypt was going to be another horror beat and they decided that the Arya horror interlude was better and didn't want a lot more from that genre.  I'm not a horror fan (I can barely watch Arya's trip though the library) so I'm not sorry they cut most of the "tale from the crypt."

Edited April 29, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Lila82]

Hi folks!  I haven't posted over here in a long night or watched the show for four seasons, but I'm back to finish what I started, and it's at best..."meh".

The first fifteen minutes were brilliant. There was barely any dialogue but we could feel the hopelessness, and crushing sense of foreboding doom. I thought I might go into palpitations myself just from watching.

From there, it went downhill fast, mostly because I couldn't see a damn thing, but also because it was so cleanly resolved. The majority of characters lived and the Night King was neatly dispatched without any real consequences for the realm.  I like payoff for my MacGuffins and I don't think Cersei will be it. I know she won't be it, because does anyone actually care who sits the iron throne? In the books, Cersei is my least favorite character, and the only one for whom I can't find a single redeeming quality, but she isn't this deranged, nor is she the epitome evil.  She's gone from self-absorbed and short-sighted to simply hateful.  And that's not who Cersei is.  She's awful, but she's but one player in the game of thrones and making her the big bad is both unfair and ill- advised.  We already hate Cersei.  Make us work for our satisfying conclusion, writers.  Don't just give it away!  

ETA: by far the best part of the episode was Davos playing air traffic controller for Drogon.  It was an unintentional moment of hilarity, but nonetheless brought some levity to an otherwise violent episode.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Lila82

[Hanahope]

I don't know what people mean by "no consequences" and "almost no deaths."  WTF?  Almost the entirety of the north has been decimated.  Whole houses and all of their supports are gone.  The Dothrakis are gone (other than a few that probably remained in Essos).  Just because we didn't know all their names doesn't mean it wasn't devasting.  Anyone with much of an army could just roll the North over and then some (well, at least if two dragons aren't there).

Sure, most main characters survived, but they were also touted as being some of the best fighters, Grey Worm, Jamie, Brienne, even Pod was said to be good by Brienne.  Sandor had to live for the Clegahn bowl.  Jon and Dany have to live to finish the story (as the two main characters).  Sure, Varys and Messiandre could have died, but they are also touted as being the smartest.  Same with Tyrion (and we neede him alive because of Cersie - rubbing in her nose) and Sansa.  Gendry could have died ,but I think they are keeping him alive as the last Baratheon.  And yeah, Arya could have died, but I'm fine with her living, especially if she has more skills to use in KL.

There was plenty of death, and I'm sure there's more to come.

[jeansheridan]

Not my favorite battle (the BOTB and the Loot Train ones are my faves. And the Blackwater because no magic and low budget). 

But as a fight highlighting Arya, it was great. Jon has had great battle moments. And Jaime. And Dany. This was Arya's. And the Red Woman. Do I wish each character had been given more of a moment? Maybe. But I liked that we lost Brienne and Jaime and Davos in the fight. That felt more true. 

I do wish Tyrion had more of a hero moment. At least one on screen kill.

Bran is a bit maddening but that said, he was never gonna be an action hero. may taking control of the dragon? Or using the birds to attack? But those would have been Brandon Stark's techniques, not the Three Eyed Raven 

Theon got to show off his archery skill one more time. And Brandon saying he was home was everything. Just like Sansa Winterfell is a mixed blessing kind of place for him but it really is home.

[Misplaced]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

As much as I like Arya, I wasn't feeling having her be the one to kill the Night King.  I really felt like that should have been Jon but D and D have CONSISTENTLY undermined and neutered Jon in these moments.  They had Sansa inexplicably withhold information from Jon about LF's army prior to the Battle of the Bastards, forcing him to go into the battle blind.  He didn't contribute much to that battle there and D and D made sure to constantly mention that Sansa had won the Battle of the Bastards.  In this battle, Jon contributes very little to the overall victory.  Seriously, he's the main character on the show, the true heir to the Iron Throne whom was brought back from the North and he contributes next to nothing in these big moments.  It just feels like Show Jon gets moved around by other characters from place to place when needed.  It's like he has no agency at al.

Hmmmm I have always seen Jon Snow as the same kind of (superlative) leader as Hazel in Richard Adams’ *Watership Down*.  Yeah I know bunnies but bear (or indeed bunny) with me here. Hazel is the leader not because he’s the smartest (that’s Blackberry) or because he sees into the future (that’s Fiver) or because he’s the biggest (Bigwig) or even the bravest (arguably Captain Holly) but because he knows how to speak to the strengths in each person and drive the collective forward, because he forces his tribe to act as one by acting himself.  He doesn’t have to carry out the Great Actions to be Chief Rabbit - he inspires loyalty in part by being willing to risk his own neck, and that is ultimately why he is Chief Rabbit.

Yeah ok I just re-read WD but that logic makes sense to me. In short, Jon gets sh7t done one way or another. 

[CherryMalotte]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I do agree it felt like a bit of a cheat that more major characters didn't die.

Season ain't over yet.

[WatchrTina]

7 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I don't know what people mean by "no consequences" and "almost no deaths."  WTF?  Almost the entirety of the north has been decimated.  Whole houses and all of their supports are gone. 

Yeah, I don't think Sansa is going to have any concerns about having enough food for the winter anymore.  The death toll was HUGE.  In addition to the losses suffered by the Northern houses, I'm assuming nearly all the Dothraki are gone and a good percentage of the Unsullied too.  I'm expecting a scene next week wherein we see the formerly living buried with as much dignity as can be done (perhaps depicting separate death rites for Dothraki, Unsullied and Northerners) -- while the formerly undead are put in piles and reduced to ash by dragon breath.

[Misplaced]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

My speculation is that A Man was hired by Cersei to kill Daenerys and/or Jon, will use the face of the Waif, and will be recognized by Arya Stark of Winterfell who will kill A Man. 

My speculation is that A Man 

Spoiler

Is the commander of the Gold Company.

[FozzyBear]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

It bothers me that this episode essentially made Cersei's decision to not fight in this battle be the smart one.

I always thought it was a smart move. Not a moral move, but a smart one. If the NK wins she buys time to run. If NK loses, she’s in a better position to fight Danny. It’s an evil bastard move, but not a dumb evil bastard move.

[Cammi]

14 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

no. It would be her daughter-niece or son-nephew (assuming jamie is the father)

Ahhh thank you. Can’t calculate incestuous relationships correctly. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

HBO has posted a behind-the-scenes video for this episode and it is AWESOME.  It's much more in-depth than the usual Inside-the-episode video. (That is also available -- it comes on automatically if you watch the episode on-demand.)

Watching this "behind the scenes" special makes it clear that all these scenes don't have to be so dark. In fact most of them are quite brightly lit and they simply turn the brightness way down in the finished product. Now, I get that these scenes are taking place at night but if you spend enough time in the dark your eyes eventually adjust to it, assuming there is some sort of light source. They could easily turn the brightness up a notch or two without sacrificing any aesthetic value. The fact that people have been complaining about this for years proves there is something they need to correct.

Quote

I don't know what people mean by "no consequences" and "almost no deaths."  

I think there was a general expectation that a major character - if not more than one - would bite it this episode. I'm talking about Jon, Dany, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Jamie - one of the main ones. I'm not saying I'm disappointed, exactly, just a bit surprised the show didn't take that risk. It is this show, after all.

[screamin]

This article encapsulates the problems I had with the episode pretty well:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

I suspect we'll be hearing GRRM's carefully modulated disapproval of the show's last season over the next few months.

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

I have a nice TV and it felt like I was watching a VHS tape.

I have a cheap tv, and it was mostly fine.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

This article encapsulates the problems I had with the episode pretty well:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

I suspect we'll be hearing GRRM's carefully modulated disapproval of the show's last season over the next few months.

While I agree that the battle plan itself was moronic and seemed to have been thought up 30 seconds before the Walkers arrived... I don't have an issue with Cerci being correct. The best bad guys are smart. She was right. The point was she affirmatively agreed to help and went back on it. Originally they were only asking for a truce.  I actually hope that Cerci turns out to be a formidable enemy who has learned from past mistakes. That doesn't mean I want her to win. Now everyone left is out for blood from her... not just surrender. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Watching this "behind the scenes" special makes it clear that all these scenes don't have to be so dark. In fact most of them are quite brightly lit and they simply turn the brightness way down in the finished product. Now, I get that these scenes are taking place at night but if you spend enough time in the dark your eyes eventually adjust to it, assuming there is some sort of light source. They could easily turn the brightness up a notch or two without sacrificing any aesthetic value. The fact that people have been complaining about this for years proves there is something they need to correct.

I suspect this is done to hide special effects / mistakes. Wires etc.  You will remember someone posted a photo of what looked like a human face behind Sansa once they lighted the trailer. Making things dark hides such things. 

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

No Glover is dead. As Tormund said, anyone who didn't make it to Winterfell is dead. The Northern lords are basically decimated.

Was Deepwood Motte between the Wall and Winterfell, though?  I need to look at a map of the North.

[GraceK]

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

Edited April 29, 2019 by GraceK

[proserpina65]

7 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

 I get that she felt helpless but she kind of lost me when she started dissing “the Dragon Queen” who was trying to protect the realm and defend all the living... I’m glad Missandei said something. 

She wasn't dissing Dany - she was pointing out Tyrion's obvious divided loyalties and why it couldn't work out between them.

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So anyone else think that Dragon fire not  working on the NK is a cop out? How is it possible that Valyerian Steel, which is forged from Dragonfire, works to kill him, and Dragonglass made him.....but the actual purest source has no effect? 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m genuinely asking because it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

It's a cop out. But it's a dramatic device I think the writers wanted to use to show that only sheer grit and courage can defeat the NK. I am not saying Dany was not courageous -- she was. But having the NK vanquished by dragon fire would have been too cinematic and easy. Having the tiny Arya plunge the knife just made for a dramatically more thrilling ending,