S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[enoughcats]

7 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

. Maybe the person who could've been the best balance between cunning and caring with an army to do damage woulda been Margery...

When Margery died, I felt a sadness because she was in my opinion the only woman who could play 3-d chess with the different families.  She knew how to manipulate and procreate.  But she didn't play dirty enough.

6 hours ago, newms said:

Sam: His story is done as well as his wife. They are tied to the Wall and the North. His family is gone now in the south. 

The kindness of his sister and Mother to Gilly was a shining light in a world of disfunctional families.  Wish something had been said about them after the BBQ.

Speaking of MIA: I think I've read almost all of these 13 pages, and no one has wondered if Robin has dropped off the face of GoT earth.  Did we see one of the grumpy white bearded elders who were mislead by Sansa and Little Finger?  Robin (given a couple more seasons could have grown up and matured studly.  Not enough time for that and no background to take him away from wimphood. 

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

The Night King's story is not compelling because I can't quite believe in it-- it's called "willing suspension of disbelief." because he has no understandable motive whatsoever.

I've got a different worry if the NK wins.  Does he ride off into the blue gray sunset on his bag of bones surrounded by a couple of buds on their bags of bones, and they go and do what?  Roam the countryside until their joints wear out?  No need to feed them.  But they aren't going to sit and talk about their plans for the next decade.  You can only destroy so many warm bloods until there aren't any more to destroy.  Bags of bones aren't going to grow forests, cut down forests and build ocean going boats.  Can they even talk?  Or is the NK the only one who can think, much less communicate. With whom and about what?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, enoughcats said:

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

The Night King's story is not compelling because I can't quite believe in it-- it's called "willing suspension of disbelief." because he has no understandable motive whatsoever.

I've got a different worry if the NK wins.  Does he ride off into the blue gray sunset on his bag of bones surrounded by a couple of buds on their bags of bones, and they go and do what?  Roam the countryside until their joints wear out?  No need to feed them.  But they aren't going to sit and talk about their plans for the next decade.  You can only destroy so many warm bloods until there aren't any more to destroy.  Bags of bones aren't going to grow forests, cut down forests and build ocean going boats.  Can they even talk?  Or is the NK the only one who can think, much less communicate. With whom and about what?

I was talking about this with somebody recently. It seems like the NK just controls all his people so they're all just him, like a person with so many dolls. So I had this vision of the show ending with him winning and on his throne and now he's just really lonely with no friends.

And that's the moral of the whole story, kids.

Adding one quick opinion to the "who would be the actual best person to sit on the Iron Throne" I agree that everybody has their flaws and plenty of people have the raw materials to not be terrible. But the main thing Jon brings to the table is being the person saying that none of these stupid squabbles mean anything if they all get turned into zombies. Nothing Jon's ever done with that as his motivation can be held against him, imo, even if it turned out badly.

[DarkRaichu]

7 hours ago, izabella said:

I look at it more as some (many of our main characters) have to live in order to repopulate Westeros.  So many Houses have been wiped out - Tyrells, Martells, Tarlys, Freys, Tullys...  Someone has to live!

And I for once think that is not necessarily a bad thing.  There is a power vacuum.  Perhaps it is time for another version of High Sparrow to rise up and lead the people of Westeros to build new (representative?) government

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why did NK do it? The author made it up! is the lamest answer in the world and it IS insulting our intelligence. The Night King's story is not compelling because I can't quite believe in it-- it's called "willing suspension of disbelief." because he has no understandable motive whatsoever.

I see your point.  Nobody ever told us the motivation of NK, we only got glimpses of what the characters think NK's motivation was. 

This is not the first time NK invade south, correct?  At least in my head, NK is the embodiment of long winter itself.  His function is to reset / kill / destroy whatever in his path.  Once the long winter is over he would return back to his original spot up north, only to do another invasion in 1000 years (during the next long winter) to do another reset. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[DarkRaichu]

Oh and on the dead pool.  The one who is going to die for certain is Jorah.  He served his purpose.  He brought Dany to meet Sam and he appointed his successor as Dany's advisor, ie Sansa.  He even made peace with the house of Mormont via Lady Bear and got a new weapon from Sam to defend the realm.  What's left is a cinematic and heroic death

[Potanical Pardon]

1 hour ago, AshleyN said:

I've long thought that Sam's destiny was to write the history of this time period.

Absolutely. Me too. Ever since we first saw him first arrive at the Citadel, the audience discovered the intro sundial was an actual in-story thing...that we, the audience, were learning about the history of Westeros, the TV show, as if we were actually in the Citadel as participants. 

There is also that Season 8 finally has a new intro of sorts. The very last thing Sam did at the Citadel after stealing books and documents was to look up at the sundial. I view the new updated intro as what Sam will add as contribution to historical record. In addition, there is that scene where Sam comments on the name of the history of Westeros master book. I can't recall the name, but he commented on how lame the name was. I have a feeling that as new Archmaester or whatever, he's going to rename that the book series name.

Then there's the old curmudgeony, arrogant Jedi Order, err Grand Maesters. They're all far too ineffective now and inflexible (and very "not gonna be my fault when something goes wrong!) Sam comes into conflict with the very problems of the current order through the unsanctioned Greyscale treatment, the diary of shits, not taking the dangers of WW seriously. Sam has to represent a new guard. Shit, even Qyburn represents, in some ways, the failings of the Maesters through all of Pycelle's snooty superiority.

Then there's Maester Aemon. On his deathbed, he spoke to Sam about once being in love, rejecting kinghood, etc. This part of my thinking is the biggest stretch, but I think we're supposed to take from it that tragedy will repeat itself but with Sam, Gilly and Little Sam. I think there's a strong possibility that Little Sam and Gilly don't make it out of those crypts alive and it becomes even more of a duty for Sam to take over the Citadel rather than become Super Master Lord of like everywhere South.

He had that line when leaving Old Towne about being done with reading all these books about "better men" not only indicating that he will now be an active participant, but also making commentary on the current state of those not better men residing in the Citadel.

5 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Oh and on the dead pool.  The one who is going to die for certain is Jorah.  He served his purpose.  He brought Dany to meet Sam and he appointed his successor as Dany's advisor, ie Sansa.  He even made peace with the house of Mormont via Lady Bear and got a new weapon from Sam to defend the realm.  What's left is a cinematic and heroic death

My initial thought both after the episode and overall was yeah, Jorah's done. Totally done. But then I kept thinking that his receiving Heart's Bane and meeting Lady Mormont is kind of repetitive of Brienne being knighted and receiving Oathkeeper. Similarly, both arcs would be done, so they'd die, but I feel like D&D hate repeating themselves.

Instead, I think they're going to subvert our expectations. In Brienne's case, she's probably done-done. With the Mormonts, I think Lyanna is going to bite it instead. While Jorah has completed his redemption arc and has been rewarded for it, he's basically the Prodigal Son, and that part hasn't happened yet as it's more epilogue-y.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Potanical Pardon

[CeeBeeGee]

10 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I have a feeling that as new Archmaester or whatever, he's going to rename that the book series name.

Might I suggest...A Song of Ice and Fire? I don't know, it has a nice ring to it, I think.

[Andromeda]

30 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

This is not the first time NK invade south, correct?  At least in my head, NK is the embodiment of long winter itself.  His function is to reset / kill / destroy whatever in his path.  Once the long winter is over he would return back to his original spot up north, only to do another invasion in 1000 years (during the next long winter) to do another reset. 

That's how I see it. He wipes the board clean for a restart. (I also like the climate change analogy, but prefer the mythical one.) I also think about Essos. Would the NK head East, or is he only a Westeros functionary? So humankind would survive on the other continent. Could the Westerosi become refugees in Essos? Dany can rule there. All aboard the ships!

[DarkRaichu]

30 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

While Jorah has completed his redemption arc and has been rewarded for it, he's basically the Prodigal Son, and that part hasn't happened yet as it's more epilogue-y.

Agreed this is Jorah's redemptive arc.  In the past he fled his house and brought shame to his father.  The prodigal son returns, made peace with his house, and is here to defend his birth land even to this death

Edited April 24, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Chris24601]

Since everyone seems to be doing death pools I’ll give you mine based on story structure.

Here’s my criteria;

1) The character must have completed their arc (or the dying is the completion of their arc) or not have an arc to speak of and has committed a death trope.

2) The character’s death must impact a more important character in the story.

As a further supposition I’m going to go with the idea that one character from each of the groups focused on in this episode will die.

Here we go;

- Jon and Dany are both safe precisely because of the outstanding issues of Jon’s parentage. There was zero reason to even include that story element if one of them is to die here.

- The Starks are absolutely safe because the strife between Jon and them over his bending the knee has not been resolved (similarly Sansa’s conflict with Dany over Northern independence remains unresolved), nor did they share any scenes with each other. Bran is especially safe since his role as the world’s memory is the very thing the Night King is trying to snuff out and there’s no backup. He’s also a key part of the evidence to prove Jon’s claim (and if anyone doubts him he just needs to bring up something embarrassing or criminal that only the doubter would know like he did to Littlefinger and Jamie) and perhaps Jon’s best weapon (warging) against the dragons if he does come into greater conflict with Dany for the sake of drama.

- Jamie and Tyrion are safe because they still have a confrontation with Bronn and then Cersei before them. Tyrion may also have some betrayal of Dany action to resolve.

- Varys is safe because Dany can’t burn him alive for betrayal if he’s dead.

- Davos is safe because his deserved ending and dream is to serve as Hand for a truly just ruler in a time of peace.

- Sam is safe because he has a story to write and because he provides the tangible evidence that supports Bran’s visions about Jon’s claim.

And now the actual likely dead...

- Theon: After rescuing his sister and his warm reception here, his redemptive death saving Bran will be the capstone on one the greatest redemption arcs ever written and will leave a lasting mark on all the Starks.

- Berric: He finished out his apology tour with Arya (having apologized to Gendry last season) and his whole reason for existence and being brought back again and again is to aid in facing the Night King. His death doesn’t really impact many others on its own, but if I were to wager it will be to save Jon and give him time to destroy the Night King.

- Ser Brienne: She has achieved her life’s dream of becoming a knight. She has trained Podrick to the point he is now training others. She has won the hearts of two men who would be devastated if she chose the other. If she dies protecting Sansa or Arya she will have died fulfilling her oaths to Cat, Jamie and Sansa and her loss would impact Sansa (her most trusted advisor/protector), Jamie, Tormund and Podrick.

- Jorah: He has no arc beyond service to his Queen. His death saving Lyanna while wielding a blade in memory of Jeor Mormont would win him redemption in the eyes of his House and deprive Dany of a key advisor just before she’s going to feel the need to kill Varys for betraying her.

- The Night King: Too one note to be the final conflict of the series and you can’t deal with Cersei/Euron and look responsible as a leader unless the Night King is soundly defeated. The only drama is how many die before they kill him and that’s not good drama you want to conclude the story with since it would end it on “if only they’d killed him X minutes sooner my favorite would still be alive.”

Possibles include;

Gendry: Sex before death in battle, but leaves a bun in the oven (heir to the Stormlands or even the Iron Throne if posthumously legitimized) is an exceedingly common trope so I wouldn’t rule it out.

Greyworm: Because his only arc is what he plans to do after the story; making him the vetern officer who’s just announced he’s retiring at the end of the month and moving to Florida with his wife.

Missandie: Because her only arc is a desire to go home once the story is over and the only thing more tragic than Greyworm not living to retire is him having to go and protect Naath without Missandie.

Gilly: File this under general dread, but Sam, Gilly and Little Sam all content in bed with each other as the song about dancing with ghosts was sung over it screams out that something bad will happen to Gilly (since Sam is safe) in the crypts. Gah! I hated even typing that.

We’ll find out in five days.

[catrice2]

Can we all just pray for Lyanna? 

[DarkRaichu]

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Greyworm: Because his only arc is what he plans to do after the story; making him the vetern officer who’s just announced he’s retiring at the end of the month and moving to Florida with his wife.

Missandie: Because her only arc is a desire to go home once the story is over and the only thing more tragic than Greyworm not living to retire is him having to go and protect Naath without Missandie.

I do not see both dead.  One needs to be alive so in the epilogue he/she can stand on a beautiful sandy beach alone reminiscing a dead love.

Edited April 24, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[catrice2]

7 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I do not see both dead.  One needs to be alive so in the epilogue he/she can stand on a beautiful sandy beach alone reminiscing a dead love.

This I agree with. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Adding one quick opinion to the "who would be the actual best person to sit on the Iron Throne" I agree that everybody has their flaws and plenty of people have the raw materials to not be terrible. But the main thing Jon brings to the table is being the person saying that none of these stupid squabbles mean anything if they all get turned into zombies. Nothing Jon's ever done with that as his motivation can be held against him, imo, even if it turned out badly.

If the living defeat the dead, and there's still an Iron Throne, sooner or later, and probably sooner, people will focus on their stupid squabbles again. And Jon is terrible at that.

[mledawn]

Cosigning with @ElectricBoogaloo: Arya killing doesn't get a second thought, but Arya having sex is problematic? Git at it, girl.
People commenting on seeing Arya naked - we don't. We see side boob, ribs, and some abs.

[penelope79]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Why are we sure there's a spy in Dany's camp? What have I missed?

[...]

As for other fallen houses, didn't the Tyrells have a grandson/brother, that Margery wanted to marry Sansa to at one point? Why do they keep saying the house is no more? 

I second the question: why is everyone so sure that someone is going to betray Daenerys? Did I miss something, too?

As for the Tyrell, I only remember Margeary wanting Sansa to marry her brother Loras (who died with her and their father, i.e. Lady Olenna's son, in the final episode of season 6, all of them killed by Cersei in the temple). Then Twyin Lannister decided to give Loras to Cersei and that Sansa had to marry Tyrion.

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, penelope79 said:

I second the question: why is everyone so sure that someone is going to betray Daenerys? Did I miss something, too?

As for the Tyrell, I only remember Margeary wanting Sansa to marry her brother Loras (who died with her and their father, i.e. Lady Olenna's son, in the final episode of season 6, all of them killed by Cersei in the temple). Then Twyin Lannister decided to give Loras to Cersei and that Sansa had to marry Tyrion.

It was Loras!  You're right.  And he's, um,  extra crispy. 

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I do not see both dead.  One needs to be alive so in the epilogue he/she can stand on a beautiful sandy beach alone reminiscing a dead love.

I actually agree with that. That’s why I listed them both in the “possible” category. Perhaps I should have written “Greyworm or Missandie” as a single entry in the previous post. That would have made it clearer that I meant one or the other rather than it possibly being both.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved this summary of the episode:

[MarySNJ]

17 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Dany is basing her claim on being the rightful heir according to Westeros tradition.  She's discounting Baratheons as usurpers since Robert Baratheon overthrew her father.  By that reasoning, Jon's claim is stronger than hers because he is the legitimate male heir.  Asserting that she deserves the throne simply because she has the strongest army is an entirely different thing, and would probably make her a usurper herself.

I'm not saying any of this is right, just that it's the reasoning behind her claim versus Jon's claim.  Which is less important to him because he doesn't want to be king of anything.  I can only see him asserting a claim if he felt that was what the people of Westeros wanted, and was what he had to do for the good of his people.  Like him accepting being King in the North.

One other sort of bugs me about this:  Daenerys told Sansa that her goal in life was the Iron Throne. But as I recall, in Season 1 she and Viserys both assumed he would take the Iron Throne with Khal Drogo’s army. That changed when Drogo executed Viserys and maybe that was always Drogo’s intention, but I think if she’s basing her claim on Westeros tradition, that means she knows Jon has a stronger claim as a true-born male heir of her eldest brother. 

Having said that, Aegon I “the Conqueror” established the dynasty by conquest, so Daenerys could be following centuries old family tradition by doing the same to retake the Iron Throne. 

If Dany and Jon/Aegon got married, they could decide to co-rule as a compromise. 

[Popples]

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Can we all just pray for Lyanna? 

To the old gods and the new.

[One Tough Cookie]

10 hours ago, AshleyN said:

I've long thought that Sam's destiny was to write the history of this time period.

That's EXACTLY what I thought.  I imagined him in his home with Gilly, closing a  book and saying to his children "and that's the way way my children your uncle saved the 7 Kingdoms"!

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, enoughcats said:

When Margery died, I felt a sadness because she was in my opinion the only woman who could play 3-d chess with the different families.  She knew how to manipulate and procreate.  But she didn't play dirty enough.

The kindness of his sister and Mother to Gilly was a shining light in a world of disfunctional families.  Wish something had been said about them after the BBQ.

Speaking of MIA: I think I've read almost all of these 13 pages, and no one has wondered if Robin has dropped off the face of GoT earth.  Did we see one of the grumpy white bearded elders who were mislead by Sansa and Little Finger?  Robin (given a couple more seasons could have grown up and matured studly.  Not enough time for that and no background to take him away from wimphood. 

I've got a different worry if the NK wins.  Does he ride off into the blue gray sunset on his bag of bones surrounded by a couple of buds on their bags of bones, and they go and do what?  Roam the countryside until their joints wear out?  No need to feed them.  But they aren't going to sit and talk about their plans for the next decade.  You can only destroy so many warm bloods until there aren't any more to destroy.  Bags of bones aren't going to grow forests, cut down forests and build ocean going boats.  Can they even talk?  Or is the NK the only one who can think, much less communicate. With whom and about what?

I thought the NK has made a number of Sentients, including craster’s lads perhaps, who make their own mindless zombies. If you kill one of his hench-wights the undead mindless hordes they’ve turned die with them. If you kill the NK you kill all his zombie franchises at once. 

Anyway that’s what I’ve been assuming. 

Which means that while he is attacking  Winterfell another army could be marching to KL. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Affogato

[Bali]

13 hours ago, Macbeth said:

And I love that Tyrion still has goals should the dead rip him apart. He hopes he marched down to King's Landing and kills Cersei. 

This is why I think Tyrion is toast. But it isn't his last scene. I think he gets reanimated and his dead self kills Cersei.

[Drogo]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If you kill the NK you kill all his zombie franchises at once. 

Will these zombie franchises all be selling Wight-on-a-Wall™?

[Bali]

10 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I see your point.  Nobody ever told us the motivation of NK, we only got glimpses of what the characters think NK's motivation was. 

This is not the first time NK invade south, correct?  At least in my head, NK is the embodiment of long winter itself.  His function is to reset / kill / destroy whatever in his path.  Once the long winter is over he would return back to his original spot up north, only to do another invasion in 1000 years (during the next long winter) to do another reset. 

I don't think of the NK in human terms. I think of him in terms of a machine. He is essentially a computer created by the Children of the Forest. The computer was designed (created) to get rid of men. So that is what it does. It keeps trying and failing. So it resets and tries again. It isn't thinking of "what happens next" because for it, there is no next. It just is going to keep trying until it succeeds or is destroyed. Then it either just exists or ceases to exist and it doesn't really care one way or the other. It has no qualms about resurrecting the dead to achieve its goals because there are no emotions in It.

It is possibly the biggest threat in the series, but it is the most boring one to me. At least with Cersei, I get the joy of relishing hating her. And arguing with my bestie that she really IS that bad. (Bestie likes her and feels sorry for her.)

[Bali]

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Might I suggest...A Song of Ice and Fire? I don't know, it has a nice ring to it, I think.

And much less plagiaristicy than "There and Back Again."

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, mledawn said:

Cosigning with @ElectricBoogaloo: Arya killing doesn't get a second thought, but Arya having sex is problematic? Git at it, girl.
People commenting on seeing Arya naked - we don't. We see side boob, ribs, and some abs.

An interview I read said that Maisie was given control over how it was shot (IIRC, the option of not showing skin at all was on the table as well). And this is what she chose. Whether or not we're comfortable with it is up to us. I was okay with it, but I can understand how some wouldn't be (as her murdering was Arya getting some agency and control - which she also has in this scene).

[Constantinople]

It is odd that Tyrion trusted Cersei now when he didn't trust her in Season 2 when he was the acting Hand.  Back then he blackmailed Lancel into spying on her for him because he knew he couldn't trust her to be honest with him about her preparations to defend King's Landing from Stannis. If he didn't trust her then, I don't know why he should trust her now.

But I don't think Tyrion is a traitor. Just an aristocrat with deeply conventional aristocratic views

• When Dickon Tarly volunteered to die with his father last season, Tyrion tried to dissuade Dickon. Not because Dickon would die, but because a Great House would die. That, for a noble, is the worst thing of all (recall Tywin telling Jaime in Season 1 that soon Tywin, Jaime, etc would all be dead, and all that carries on is the family name; or, after the Battle of the Bastards, Sansa telling Ramsay that the Bolton name would be forgotten).
   
• Tyrion's battle plans failed in Season 7 because he couldn't imagine a family, in this case his own, would give up their ancestral castle as part of a strategy to win the larger war (particularly giving up Casterly Rock, which Tyrion has always wanted)
   
• Now Tyrion thought Cersei would fight against the Army of the Dead because she'd want a future for her unborn child. I'm not sure why. Partly, perhaps, because he would see that as a rational thing to do, partly he expects mothers to care about their children, and, again, the importance of carrying on the family name.

Tyrion should have known better

Quote

...if it weren't for my children, I'd have thrown myself from the highest window in the Red Keep. They're the reason I'm alive - Cersei to Tyrion in the Season 3 finale

Yet Cersei didn't toss herself out a window after Tommen, the last of her surviving children, gave a whole new meaning to King's Landing. That might have been a tip off to Tyrion that something else is more important to Cersei than children.

But Tyrion can't see it because he's so conventional. In his own way, he's as conventional as Ned Stark.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Constantinople

[Bali]

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Can we all just pray for Lyanna? 

I'm not sure we need to. I mean, I can fully see her being killed, being resurrected, then still being fierce enough to look at her White Walker creator and say, "Nope. I'm small, but opinionated and my opinion is that the NK needs to die" and marching off to be the one to kill him.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bali
typos

[UNOSEZ]

Maybe.... Arya with the rumblings of the new monarch inside her kills a White Walker takes its face and right before the Night King kills Jon or Dany.. BAM...  Stabbed in the back... Shocked saved person looks up at savior WW... Arya pulls off mask... Everyone left alive cheers... Podrick and Bronn( Cuz he showed up somehow)  sing songs.. Everyone drinks and cries.. Then they begin the plan to kill cersei

[whateverdgaf]

I've seen some arguments that Brienne is almost certain to die next episode because her arc completed with her knighthood, because becoming a knight is the only things she wants. But remember the scene in Season 4 where she tells Podrick of how happy she was dancing with those boys at her ball. Think of how it was her love for Renly that drove her to becoming a Kingsguard, and how much Jaime means to her. Romantic love means a great deal to Brienne and her character, and just as it was important for her accepted as a knight who is a woman, it is also important for her be accepted (and accept herself) as someone worthy of love and romance on her own terms.  Brienne's belief that a woman such as her could not hope to be in a loving relationship with a man she truly wants shouldn't be vindicated anymore than her belief that she cannot be a knight because she is a woman. There is another vital aspect of Brienne's character that needs to be realised before her arc is complete (and that won't be from Tormund dribbling milk down himself). True, the writers may decide to cut her arc short for the sake of tragedy, but if the main argument is 'There's nowhere left for her to go', then that's false. Also, if Westeros does survive the White Walkers then it will need to be rebuilt, and considering how vile Westeros is there will need to be great changes. And one of those changes needs to be in the lives of the women, a change that Brienne; as the first female knight of Westeros, could contribute greatly to. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by whateverdgaf

[GodsBeloved]

27 minutes ago, Bali said:

I'm not sure we need to. I be, I can fully see her being killed, being resurrected, then still being fierce enough to look at her White Walker creator and say, "Nope. I'm small, but opinionated and my opinion is that the NK needs to die" and marching off to be the one to kill him.

I'm ok with this LOL

[Affogato]

48 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Will these zombie franchises all be selling Wight-on-a-Wall™?

In the mad magazine version. 

8 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I And one of those changes needs to be in the lives of the women, a change that Brienne; as the first female knight of Westeros, could contribute greatly to. 

Brienne for the iron throne!

[Scaeva]

15 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

LOL I am a drama critic. With a Phd in theater and a master's in English. I know it is fiction. That doesn't excuse the lack of a motivation. Why did NK do it? The author made it up! is the lamest answer in the world and it IS insulting our intelligence. The Night King's story is not compelling because I can't quite believe in it-- it's called "willing suspension of disbelief." because he has no understandable motive whatsoever.

The Night King doesn't have a motivation beyond destroying everything because the White Walkers are basically just weapons of mass destruction created by the Children of the Forest when the First Men were busy killing them off. Their creators may have lost control of them, but they're still performing the function they had been created for.

To compare it to Sci Fi, they're a bit like a rogue A.I.

[taanja]

19 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

 I also think that Arya will go with him. I don't think she is built for staying at Winterfell. She never wanted to marry a lord and have his children, but that was mostly because she wanted the freedom of being herself and being a warrior.  Gendry loves her as she is, and wouldn't stop her coming and going and wouldn't force her to be a lady.  Plus, she loves him.

Wait! What? Since when does Arya love Gendry? Their hook up kind of came out of nowhere IMO -- but love? since when?

My perception of the character Arya not wanting to marry and have children isn't because she wants freedom-- it's because she doesn't desire marriage and children. Period. As simple as that.

[MissLucas]

Ships are launched on this show all the time (by fandom) just to meet a giant ice-berg sooner or later. I remember that there was a Sansa-Hound ship, a Sansa-Loras ship, a Sansa-Littlefinger ship and for a brief moment even a Sansa-Jon ship. The Arya-Gendry ship should not come as a surprise is what I'm saying.

As for Brienne: I have no doubts about the love between her and Jaimie - but it belongs to the sphere of idealized courtly love. Nothing will ever come of it even if both survive. And of course as much as I enjoy watching his best efforts at Wildling courtship nothing will ever come of Tormund's attention. I just wish Brienne could appreciate the fact that here's a man who finds her attractive despite not conforming to any accepted standards of femininity her own culture ingrained in her. Accepting his appreciation would mean accepting her own brand of womanhood. But of course we don't have time for this *sigh*

Edited April 24, 2019 by MissLucas

[AshleyN]

Re: the Night King/White Walkers, I posted this in the other thread, but I think of them as more of a natural disaster, or the commonly cited metaphor for climate change. While I admit to being curious about how they came to exist, I've never really been interested in them having specific motives or anything because to me the story isn't about them, but about how the human characters react to them. They're a force of destruction that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, but for the most part people have been too caught up in their power games or petty personal feuds to see or respond to the threat to all humanity that they represent.

It's why I'm kind of torn on how I want the next episode to go: while I like the poetic aspect of them being defeated at Winterfell, and I can see why the writers would want to return to the Game of Thrones for the end, I think the themes they represent are basically lost if they never make it further South than Winterfell and people like Cersei never have to face any consequences for ignoring them.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AshleyN

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Everyone left alive cheers... Podrick and Bronn( Cuz he showed up somehow)  sing songs..

I don't know if we'll see Bronn on Sunday.  Maybe he shows up in Ep. 4 as the assassin du jour and Arya sees a face and an opportunity .  She grabs a head of either Tyrian or Jamie, and puts on Bronn's face and visits Cersei with her olde traveling companion by her side. 

IF GRRM were writing this, would it out bloody The Red Wedding and Arya's visit to the instigators?  Which way will the end authors go? Happy and relieved audience or out bloodying GRRM?

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

If the living defeat the dead, and there's still an Iron Throne, sooner or later, and probably sooner, people will focus on their stupid squabbles again. And Jon is terrible at that.

Absolutely. But in scenes where people are squabbling with the NK on his way he's just demonstrating the right priorities. Different monarchs are probably better in different situations. Their flaws cause more trouble depending on situations too. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

The Night King doesn't have a motivation beyond destroying everything because the White Walkers are basically just weapons of mass destruction created by the Children of the Forest when the First Men were busy killing them off.

Yeah, or as someone else put it a natural disaster or just general disaster in a disaster movie.

Another reasonable example would be the zombies of any zombie film or series... They aren't the real story. The reason story is how the humans deal with this encroaching threat to their survival.

That said... it can't all be Ice. GRRM said he was inspired by the Robert Frost poem (among other things) and that is about how the world could end either by Ice OR Fire and the map teaser made just as much of a deal about the fire sweeping up and consuming the Lannister Lion at King's Landing as it moved north as it did the cold sweeping south and overrunning Winterfell.

So maybe Ice is just the first half of the final season and we get a major game change (the last big twist D&D promised) where its NOT actually the inhuman force of destruction, but human players who become the Big Bad.

Indeed, one could argue that's ALWAYS been the story. The humans bickering over a Throne in the face of an oncoming force of destruction that isn't deliberately evil... it just IS.

If the ending is everyone dies then it would make sense for the Night King to be the final battle. But if the ending is that they survive it, then that can't just be the end of the story. That's a lame disaster movie ending where the disaster was a one-off.

No, what we need time for after that is to see how people are changed by surviving it. What do they decide to do differently going forward?

Human enemies are more interesting precisely because they are complex in motivation and reaction to things. Kill or be killed aren't the only options on the table.

[arjumand]

16 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Oh wait! Is it the lake shown below King's Landing? The proportions are off because the city animations are so big on this map.

Yes, that's the one. At least, that's what the people who analyse this stuff on youtube are telling me!

Also, I just looked at a map of Westeros online, and the lake is supposed to be above KL, but I agree on the credits it looks like it's below (also, they move really fast).

Anyway, if it's really the God's Eye, that sort of island in it is the Isle of Faces, where the Children of the Forest made the pact with the First Men (to stop wiping each other out). Ever since the Night King started making spiral designs with body parts (human or animal), and we saw that overhead shot of the spiral when the Night King was made, people have been theorizing that what the NK really wants is to kill his creators - and everyone else, of course. But he really hates those little buggers.

[DarkRaichu]

20 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

Re: the Night King/White Walkers, I posted this in the other thread, but I think of them as more of a natural disaster, or the commonly cited metaphor for climate change. While I admit to being curious about how they came to exist, I've never really been interested in them having specific motives or anything because to me the story isn't about them, but about how the human characters react to them. They're a force of destruction that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, but for the most part people have been too caught up in their power games or petty personal feuds to see or respond to the threat to all humanity that they represent.

It's why I'm kind of torn on how I want the next episode to go: while I like the poetic aspect of them being defeated at Winterfell, and I can see why the writers would want to return to the Game of Thrones for the end, I think the themes they represent are basically lost if they never make it further South than Winterfell and people like Cersei never have to face any consequences for ignoring them.

I do not think the NK / natural disaster theme is necessarily lost when the humans win at Winterfell.  It is a sign that human's determination and will to live are strong enough against unfavorable odds.

Also, humans created the mess surrounding the Iron Throne, so let humans clean up after themselves.  There is no need for nature to do the clean up for them.

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, mledawn said:

Cosigning with @ElectricBoogaloo: Arya killing doesn't get a second thought, but Arya having sex is problematic? Git at it, girl.
People commenting on seeing Arya naked - we don't. We see side boob, ribs, and some abs.

We saw a tiny bit of butt as well.  Not that any of that offended me.  The actress is an adult, the character is nearly an adult, and it was good to see a woman take control of her sexuality on this show.  (Not that I'm one of those who complained about rape on the show either, since it certainly fit in with the society depicted.)

[Growsonwalls]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Tyrion should have known better

Yet Cersei didn't toss herself out a window after Tommen, the last of her surviving children, gave a whole new meaning to King's Landing. That might have been a tip off to Tyrion that something else is more important to Cersei than children.

But Tyrion can't see it because he's so conventional. In his own way, he's as conventional as Ned Stark.

I don't think of Tyrion as conventional so much as he's as loyal to his own family as, say, the Starks are to their family. No matter how much Tywin and Cersei mistreated him at heart he is someone who puts the Lannisters above his own well-being. And he would never, ever do anything to hurt Jaime. The sad thing is that while Jaime does love Tyrion Cersei cares nothing for him and would sacrifice him in a heartbeat if push came to shove.

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Which means that while he is attacking  Winterfell another army could be marching to KL.  

It's what I've been saying all along, reason being the Night King has a dragon now, and he can fight a war on two fronts.

The two biggest armies (Unsullied and Dothraki) have conveniently marched to Winterfell so that he can throw all his White Walkers and Wights at them.

The Night King can raise Wights whenever he wants, and we were told that a million people live in King's Landing. Also, I just remembered Dany's vision of the throne room and the iron throne:

That whole scene shows the throne room broken open and snowdrifts everywhere.

I would find it very weird if the whole NK thing would be done in episode 3, and now let's deal with all the politicking. Also, if the NK wanted to use Viserion on Winterfell, he could have done that already, no problem. And another thing (I'm feeling very Jake Peralta today!), in the Last Hearth (where the Umbers were) there were no signs of any dragon related damage. Everything was intact, and in the Hall, where young Umber was, there were still cups and plates on the table. They were overrun because they didn't listen when they were told to burn their dead, and brought someone in, not because a dragon blasted down their walls.

The NK is somewhere else. And another thing! I think that might be the whole reason for this bit of dialogue in the promo:
 

Spoiler

Jon: The Night King is coming.

Dany: The dead are already here!

Maybe Jon is waiting for His Icy Majesty to do the whole dragon thing, and Dany is like, dude. We are gonna get our asses kicked!

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

As for Brienne: I have no doubts about the love between her and Jaimie - but it belongs to the sphere of idealized courtly love. Nothing will ever come of it even if both survive. And of course as much as I enjoy watching his best efforts at Wildling courtship nothing will ever come of Tormund's attention. I just wish Brienne could appreciate the fact that here's a man who finds her attractive despite not conforming to any accepted standards of femininity her own culture ingrained in her. Accepting his appreciation would mean accepting her own brand of womanhood. But of course we don't have time for this *sigh*

Tormund is totally not Brienne's type, and I doubt anything would come of it in the end, no matter how much I want them to survive and make giant ginger babies.  But, like you, I wish she had let her guard down enough to appreciate his admiration, even if she couldn't return it.  It might've made her more open to other men who would also appreciate her without them having to be some courtly ideal.  Maybe if they both somehow survive and Jaime doesn't?

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, arjumand said:

The Night King can raise Wights whenever he wants, and we were told that a million people live in King's Landing.

NK can raise plenty dead army since there are thousands of bodies buried between Winterfell and KL due to battles between the houses over the series.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, Scaeva said:

The Night King doesn't have a motivation beyond destroying everything because the White Walkers are basically just weapons of mass destruction created by the Children of the Forest when the First Men were busy killing them off. Their creators may have lost control of them, but they're still performing the function they had been created for.

To compare it to Sci Fi, they're a bit like a rogue A.I.

I mostly agree with this, except there are a couple things the Night King does that makes it seem more personal than AI or climate change.  I think it was the battle at Hardhome that he seemed to be prancing and taunting Jon and the NW/Wildlings.  He also makes those CotF spirals sometimes, which also seems personal rather than robotic - there doesn't seem to be a logical reason why AI or natural disaster/climate change would take the time to do that. 

I sort of think there is still a part of the NK that has vestiges of human thought/feeling, and he may not be "no one" even though he was turned into NK by the CotF.  There may still be Original Guy in there somewhere with a personal axe to grind.  But I also think I'm probably wrong about that and it's too complex for this show to go into at this point, since we barely have any information on the NK and he has no POV.

[domina89]

3 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

There is another vital aspect of Brienne's character that needs to be realised before her arc is complete (and that won't be from Tormund dribbling milk down himself). True, the writers may decide to cut her arc short for the sake of tragedy, but if the main argument is 'There's nowhere left for her to go', then that's false.

I don't think Brienne will die.  I think Brienne's arc is leading her to finish writing Jaime's page in the White Book, if it still exists at the end of the series.  I think Jaime will die heroically and Brienne will be the one to see it and record the truth so everyone will know of his sacrifice.

[DrSparkles]

I just read a post on fb where someone wishes that Cersei is pregnant with a dwarf & that she dies giving birth to him/her, with Tyrion looking on!!!!! {prayer hands!!!}