S02.E08: If Memory Serves

[Bort]

Spock and Burnham head to Talos IV, where the process of healing Spock forces the siblings to confront their troubled past. Stamets desperately tries to reconnect with Hugh. Tyler struggles to shed the crew's suspicions of him due to his past as Voq.

Airdate: Thursday, March 7, 2019

[paigow]

Tyler saved Pike...so he is OK...until he inevitably betrays everyone on Section 31 orders....

[Lebanna]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Tyler saved Pike...so he is OK...until he inevitably betrays everyone on Section 31 orders....

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

[marinw]

I am curious about how they are going to retcons Talos IV. It’s just won’t the same without the styrofoam rocks.

[starri]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

I am curious about how they are going to retcons Talos IV. It’s just won’t the same without the styrofoam rocks.

Hey, they kept the singing plants.

I really, really liked the actress who played Vina.

[Lokiberry]

OMG! Vina  and the singing plants and an opening recap of The Cage! I was squealing so loud through all of this, I think the neighbors are concerned!

That being said: look show, I'm on your side, but can you ease up on the lens flares? This isn't the JJ Abramsverse. This is the first episode where they've really bothered me. They were particularly bad during the Pike and Vina scenes. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

We heard that going to Talos IV was restricted space, but there was no actual mention of General Order 7 (which carried the death penalty), so are they just going to gloss over that ?

Georgiou: "Those Talosians tried this trick with me in the Terran Universe once, and I blew them and the stupid singing plants off the face of the planet."

Per @Lokiberry, the lens flares were a bit much.

The Talosian prosthetics looked a lot like leftover Klingon prosthetics with the sharp pointy bits filed down.  I'm not sure why they didn't try and make the Talosians look like the TOS Talosians, considering it only happened a couple of years previously in the timeline.

Based on Spock's future memories, the squiddie ships destroy all sentient life in the universe.  
Here's the question -- the squiddie ship that attacked the shuttle looked like a modified version of the probe, so is Discovery responsible for destroying everything in the future by supplying the probe in the first place ?  I'm smelling a time paradox.

The more times I see the Red Angel, I think it might be a woman -- so my money is on Burnham, but possibly Tilly.

And who is Lt. Cdr. Airiam sending all that data to -- and trying to frame Tyler in the progress ?
 

[KimberStormer]

I really cannot find the words for how much I hate having Spock on this show.

Saru letting Tyler and Culber duke it out felt very TOS.  And adorable Stamets vs mushroom/dissociated angry resurrected Culber is compelling.  I like Airiam (sp?) the brainwashed spy for the future squids or whatever, and Tyler the falsely-accused, very suspicious red herring.  I can really get down with a ridiculous WE'VE GOT TO SAVE THE FUTURE! plot, even such nonsense as automatically assuming the Red Angel is a time traveler based on her technology instead of oh, the hundreds of vastly more-advanced civilizations the Enterprise has encountered over the years.  But I can't deal with Spock.  Why oh why did it have to be Spock.

[paigow]

Helping Red Angel must reboot the timeline so that Future Kirk has no idea that Talosians can project illusions over vast distances - e.g. Commodore Mendez. BTW who is Captain of the Enterprise? Kirk was the direct successor of Pike.....

[MissLucas]

Maybe I'm a ST iconoclast but I have zero problems with Spock being in this show - it was inevitable the moment they decided to make the main character Spock's foster sister. And I remember back then lots of people angrily demanding 'where is Spock?' Now he's here and apart from a deplorable lack of grooming I have no complaints. (Listen to big sis Spock, the beard is not working. )

The Culber/Tyler confrontation was great and I liked Tyler's parting words - maybe these two could start a self-help group? And Pike noticed that ganglia-Saru would not have approved the testosterone filled conflict solution - smart. On a lighter note: were those little housekeeping drones/robots cleaning up the mess when Stamets and Culber had their break-up scene? Cute! The drones, not the break-up (which was appropriately painful to watch).

We finally got to see what caused the rift between Spock and Burnham. They were both relatively young when it happened so I wonder why their parents (i.e. Amanda) did not notice the change in their relationship. I wonder if we'll get to see more flashbacks dealing with the aftermath - probably not.

Yeah, my money's still on Tilly for being the Red Angel. And if the squids are tied to Discovery's probe then we'll have some timey-wimey stuff on our hands - not a big surprise either.

Also: I was so relieved that we got rid of the shaky cam that I did not notice the lens flares.

Edited March 8, 2019 by MissLucas

[thuganomics85]

Showing scenes from "The Cage" was a nifty idea, I thought.  Took me a while to place Melissa George at this show's version of Vena.  Pretty cool seeing her here, but I always feel a little bad, because I remember there was a time many thought she was going to go on to big things, but it just didn't happen for whatever reason.

So, the big secret between Michael and Spock was that when they were children, Michael tried to runaway because she thought her presence would bring harm to the family, and when Spock tried to stop her, she said mean things about him.  I guess I can see why that caused a rift, but still a bit predictable.  But I guess the bigger reveal is that Michael was actually suppose to die, but then the Red Angel showed up and showed Spock where to find her?  Hmm..

Glad that Culber finally confronted Tyler about what went down, but he clearly still has plenty of issues to work out.  I did love that Saru just let them fight it out, and Pike ended up being all "Well, I guess it makes sense this time, but please don't be settling every disputes with brawls in the mess hall going forward."  Pike really knows how to just roll with the punches here!

No wonder Spock attacked when he did: the Starfleet Psychiatrist was Alisen Down a.k.a. Olivia from 12 Monkeys.  You can never trust her!

Tyler is totally not going to be the spy.

Sorry Leland, but I'm going to cackle when you eventually get tossed out, and Georgiou rightfully assumes the throne as queen... err, captain of Section 31.

[MissLucas]

2 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Starfleet Psychiatrist was Alisen Down a.k.a. Olivia from 12 Monkeys.  You can never trust her!

He! The moment I heard that soothing voice my internal alarm bells where ringing!

[marinw]

11 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

the squiddie ships destroy all sentient life in the universe.  

I call Borg. Beacuse the STD writers retconn not only past Trek, but Future Trek as well, since time isn't linear.

Edited March 8, 2019 by marinw

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Helping Red Angel must reboot the timeline so that Future Kirk has no idea that Talosians can project illusions over vast distances - e.g. Commodore Mendez. BTW who is Captain of the Enterprise? Kirk was the direct successor of Pike.....

You mean right now?  The Enterprise is docked for repairs, so Pike is still officially the captain but has been temporarily reassigned to the Discovery.  Number One is likely the acting captain until Pike gets back if there's even a need for a captain while the ship is offline.

[mrspidey]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

No wonder Spock attacked when he did: the Starfleet Psychiatrist was Alisen Down a.k.a. Olivia from 12 Monkeys.  You can never trust her!

She was also a tertiary recurring character on BSG. One of them Anti-Cylon resistance fighters that used to hang out with Anders. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

I think I understood maybe a third of what happened in this episode but I came away with three general impressions: I 'm glad Burnham's persistence was rewarded and she got her brother back; poor Stamets; and, great casting of Pike. Anson Mount really looks like Jeffrey Hunter after some years andshowing those scenes from TOS highlighted it nicely.

Am losing interest in the mystery of the Red Angel though unless it does turn out to be Craft from the "Calypso" Short Trek.

[starri]

4 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Anson Mount really looks like Jeffrey Hunter after some years andshowing those scenes from TOS highlighted it nicely.

Seriously.  I had always seen it--and agreed with some other comments that Mount looks like the midway point between Hunter and Bruce Greenwood--but seeing them in the same episode, if not side-by-side, really drove home how strong the resemblance is.

[Unusual Suspect]

I really liked this one. Liked the ties to TOS, liked new Spock. Even liked Georgiou continuing to run rings around Leland.

[Vandy10]

Um, does Melissa George just never age? I need whatever deal-with-the-devil both she and Patrick Stewart seem to have made.

Also, tiny Spock is adorable. 

[aemom]

15 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

great casting of Pike. Anson Mount really looks like Jeffrey Hunter after some years andshowing those scenes from TOS highlighted it nicely.

Am losing interest in the mystery of the Red Angel though unless it does turn out to be Craft from the "Calypso" Short Trek.

I agree that it makes sense that Craft is the Red Angel otherwise that Short Trek really makes no sense.

Anson Mount is killing it as Pike and as an added bonus, he's very easy on the eyes.

6 hours ago, Vandy10 said:

Also, tiny Spock is adorable. 

Indeed. So adorable! 

[Cerulean]

15 hours ago, starri said:

Seriously.  I had always seen it--and agreed with some other comments that Mount looks like the midway point between Hunter and Bruce Greenwood--but seeing them in the same episode, if not side-by-side, really drove home how strong the resemblance is.

I actually replayed the beginning after they switched to now-Pike because I “realized” they had fixed the earlier footage to put in Mount. Then I saw Nimoy-Spock again and was just very impressed at the resemblance!

[Ottis]

Done with the “Ain’t the same Hugh” story. They brought him back for this?

Otherwise enjoying this season. Glad Trek is back.

[paigow]

This must be Mirror!Spock... or is the Mirror!Spock currently clean shaven?????

[Frozendiva]

I too was squealing a bit with the scenes from the original The Menagerie. Anson Mount was well-cast as Captain Pike.

The singing flowers on the otherwise deserted Talos IV were a nice touch. I missed the cave with the elevator doors that let the Talosians out of the ground abode. The planet did not seem desolate enough. I almost didn't recognize Melissa George as Vina. Didn't like the lens flares with Pike and Vina. The Talosians seemed a little too helpful and I do wonder what the price for their help will be. The fine print.

Too easy for Tyler to be the spy. Too obvious.  I did like Pike's handling of the fight.

Interesting that Section 31 can track Discovery in warp drive.

Vina's message of let Spock and Burnham go nicely telegraphed in to the shuttle returning. Nice play by the Talosians. Geiorgiou is a bit too smart for Section 31.

The big secret was that Burham told Spock off - like a kid. I was more interested in the monster chasing him in the woods. Childhood scars do last well in to adulthood but it seemed a little too simple.

[ahisma]

Okay, fine, they technically reversed the Kill Your Gays trope. But the Hugh that Paul knew and loved is for all intents and purposes dead. Grrrr. They'd better fix it. I do love that Hugh got to have his confrontation with Tyler, though. 

The previouslies being from the original series were awesome. The whole Talos IV plot was fabulous.

I'm loving Spock back and sane. Agree with Burnham that the beard has to go, though. And I loved her eyebrow raise to Pike in the shuttle bay.

When they were on the bridge deciding what to do now that they'd broken orders, I was secretly hoping that Spock's one option was doing to be, “Space Pirates.”

[LittleIggy]

I couldn’t believe that was what caused the big, unforgivable rift between Spock and Michael. Seriously? 🙄

Is Anthony Rapp that pale in real life?

Loved “Say ‘Goodbye,’ Spock.” “Goodbye, Spock.” 😆

[paigow]

7 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Loved “Say ‘Goodbye,’ Spock.” “Goodbye, Spock.” 😆

Amanda must have shown Spock 20th century vaudeville routines on her digital media player.....

[ottoDbusdriver]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I couldn’t believe that was what caused the big, unforgivable rift between Spock and Michael. Seriously?

I also thought that was a little underwhelming.

[Latverian Diplomat]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:41 AM, paigow said:

Helping Red Angel must reboot the timeline so that Future Kirk has no idea that Talosians can project illusions over vast distances - e.g. Commodore Mendez. BTW who is Captain of the Enterprise? 

In fairness, not!Mendez gave Kirk the confidential report on Talos IV to read. You can see how he might trust not!Mendez on that basis.

I thought Burnham was able to find out too much about why Talos IV was forbidden. "The Cage" seemed to imply it wasn't widely known why, just that you did not want to get caught going there. Kirk didn't know why, for example.

It was good that the Talosians tried to keep them away (with the black hole illusion). They were doing their share based on the mutual understanding that contact between them and the Federation could only end badly. But it would seem a little unbelievable that there was suddenly a black hole there instead of a planet. Missed out on a chance for Burnham to use logic?

On 3/9/2019 at 10:57 AM, paigow said:

This must be Mirror!Spock... or is the Mirror!Spock currently clean shaven?????

The Blue Angel tried to warn Terran Emperor Mirror!Spock about the coming Klingon/Cardassian Alliance, but all he did was start shaving and writing things backwards. 🙂

15 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

The big secret was that Burham told Spock off - like a kid. I was more interested in the monster chasing him in the woods. Childhood scars do last well in to adulthood but it seemed a little too simple.

Young Spock didn't understand humans well enough to see that she might be lying to him for what she saw as his own good. Even after he saved her, she never went back to apologize for some reason. So maybe she maintained that front of disliking him, presumably for his protection, somehow. If so, perhaps it's less the actual confrontation itself than that it was a watershed and she was completely different towards him after that. 

It's a dramatic convention, sometimes a frustrating one,  that a single intense moment stands in for interpersonal conflicts that really had their effect over years.

Still, it's not something that bears up under much scrutiny, especially if you think Amanda should have figured out something was up between the two of them and tried to get them to talk it out and resolve it. She is a trained teacher as well as a parent after all.

[Quark]

I love this show.

[Lebanna]

Loved the little shout out to Spock’s future best friend forever, Gracie The Whale. 

At some point, Airiam is going to to say ‘I see three lights’... right? 

I appreciate that Peck is doing good voice work on Spock, so far. For me, Spock is all about the voice, and this was almost Karl Urban level good.

On that note, Spock coming to terms with Michael’s hurtful insults is going to be how he becomes the person who can bicker with Bones without feeling devastated by his insults, isn’t it? This is the story of how Spock got some corners knocked off and learned not to take everything to heart. After he makes up with Michael after she hurt him, Bones’s insults are never going to get through his thick Vulcan skin. Although how little  Michael managed to say such nasty things to that cute chubby faced munchkin, I just don’t know. That’s real devotion.

Pike is definitely channeling Shatner every time he says the name ‘Spock’, all adoringly. It’s very sweet. We know from ‘The Menagerie’ that Spock and Pike were just as good friends as he and Kirk were. But of course, then it was telling, not showing. Now we get to see it first hand.

I know it’s been suggested a lot, but the next spinoff really should be Pike, Number One and Spock tearing up the galaxy. Excitement, adventure and really wild things.

I am also feeling much better about Pike and Vina ending up trapped together. This episode definitely showed that they might be honestly happy. I mean, in ‘The Cage’ the feelings seemed to be very much more on her side than his (of course, as he had to fly away still cheerfully single at the end of the episode, the show wasn’t planned to be about Pike and Vina moving back Stateside and becoming the Waltons). Plus, they were definitely going to have some sexual tension between him and Number One. She kept looking at him longingly.

It seemed like they borrowed a little tactic from the LOTR movies - that Vina is somewhat Pike’s Arwen in this scenario, the love he has to work his way back to, and having her pop up as hallucinations in Pike’s busy life is a nice way to keep them together on screen while they are far apart. And it makes story sense. If they did spin this off, that could be a nice thing to keep, every now and then. These days, we definitely don’t need to see Number One pining after the Captain. Let’s leave that in the 60s.

45 minutes ago, Quark said:

I love this show.

Me too. That was my exact thought when this episode ended. I liked this show a lot last year, but now it’s wuv, tuwoo wuv.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Lebanna

[SourK]

LMFAO, as payment for exposition in the main plot the aliens demand exposition about a side plot no one cares about. Okay!

I think the thing I hate most this season is the way that, whenever Pike makes a decision, we have to have a Touching Moment where the crew all stare at him fondly because he's such a great leader. I liked that they cut off his speech this time, but that scene still served the same purpose of going "isn't he great?!" and... the more aggressively you try to sell me on him being great, the more I hate his guts.

4 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

🙂

Young Spock didn't understand humans well enough to see that she might be lying to him for what she saw as his own good. Even after he saved her, she never went back to apologize for some reason.

That's what I don't get. Maybe I don't understand her back story, but it seems like she came home again after she ran away so, at that point, would it not have been appropriate to apologize to him and explain that she still loved him and didn't mean what she said? Most little kids would accept that.

[Kromm]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:17 AM, KimberStormer said:

I really cannot find the words for how much I hate having Spock on this show.

Or at the very least a version of him who's a petty dick.

[Lazlo]

19 hours ago, lora said:

I am tired of how everyone treats Ash.

This going to be very unpopular but I feel the same about Leeland. Yes Michelle Yeoh is charismatic as all get out but the Terran Emperor is just so utterly smug that I'm longing for her to get taken down a peg or two. Also as bad as he is I don't believe Leeland has committed genocide several times over and delighted in eating other intelligent beings.

I loved seeing Vina and her interaction with Pike. It makes their eventual fate... well, still bittersweet but more meaningful. Plus Melissa George is always great.

[paigow]

On 3/8/2019 at 4:44 AM, MissLucas said:

The Culber/Tyler confrontation was great...

but would have been improved with "Amok Time" fight music....

[starri]

24 minutes ago, paigow said:

but would have been improved with "Amok Time" fight music....

But then, wouldn't everything?

[dwmarch]

One thing that bugs me about modern Trek's interpretation of Spock's childhood is how his kryptonite is being called names. I would have much preferred if Spock's human side made him an entirely logical but snarky little dick rather than being the victim of such. For example, in Star Trek (2009):

Bully: ...your mother, the human WHORE!

Spock: My mother works for the Federation Diplomatic Service and anyone who is capable of a moment of research would easily determine that. Just a moment of research would show that the patent leather boots your mother regularly wears are favored by Rigellian prostitutes.

(bullies proceed to beat the shit out of Spock)

[Milaxx]

On 3/9/2019 at 11:51 PM, ahisma said:

Okay, fine, they technically reversed the Kill Your Gays trope. But the Hugh that Paul knew and loved is for all intents and purposes dead. Grrrr. They'd better fix it. I do love that Hugh got to have his confrontation with Tyler, though. 

The previouslies being from the original series were awesome. The whole Talos IV plot was fabulous.

I'm loving Spock back and sane. Agree with Burnham that the beard has to go, though. And I loved her eyebrow raise to Pike in the shuttle bay.

When they were on the bridge deciding what to do now that they'd broken orders, I was secretly hoping that Spock's one option was doing to be, “Space Pirates.”

This was my favorite ep of the season. As mentioned Anson makes a really good Pike.  However I’m not loving continued angst with Staments & Culber. I mean I get it. Culber was gone nearly a year. I understand his PTSD. I even understand Staments denial and wanting to just sweep everything under the rug, but the not listening to  Culber speaking of the disassociation he’s feeling is annoying. I also call BS on the ship’s doctor not recommending therapy. If this is supposed to be the couple of the show, can we get more than 1 minute of happiness?

[Tyro49]

I am wondering if the Red Angel will end up rebooting this timeline altogether, sweeping away all the inconsistencies with the original TOS timeline that people have complained about (including the technological ones). Well, we shall see.

It did bother me that the actress playing the "new" Vina bore so little resemblance to the original Vina.

Does anyone know how many episodes there will be this season?

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Tyro49 said:

I am wondering if the Red Angel will end up rebooting this timeline altogether, sweeping away all the inconsistencies with the original TOS timeline that people have complained about (including the technological ones). Well, we shall see.

It did bother me that the actress playing the "new" Vina bore so little resemblance to the original Vina.

Does anyone know how many episodes there will be this season?

I think I read there are 5 more episodes left.

[Lazlo]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:25 PM, Tyro49 said:

I am wondering if the Red Angel will end up rebooting this timeline altogether, sweeping away all the inconsistencies with the original TOS timeline that people have complained about (including the technological ones). Well, we shall see.

It did bother me that the actress playing the "new" Vina bore so little resemblance to the original Vina.

Does anyone know how many episodes there will be this season?

I strongly suspect that if Michael does turn out to be the Red Angel we will get a reboot with her saving her biological family and thus never ending up as Spock's sister.

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:25 PM, Tyro49 said:

It did bother me that the actress playing the "new" Vina bore so little resemblance to the original Vina.

Maybe Vina just got bored and asked them to give her a new look  😉

[paigow]

On 3/17/2019 at 7:27 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Maybe Vina just got bored and asked them to give her a new look  😉

Whilst the Talosians were giving themselves makeovers....

[Mom x 3]

I have liked this show since it started, but I adore it now.  I love how it is embracing everything and apologizing for nothing.  Anson Mount is amazing.  The guy playing Spock is amazing.  Vina was great.  The person I like least is Michael.  🙂

[shrewd.buddha]

On 3/8/2019 at 4:54 AM, thuganomics85 said:

But I guess the bigger reveal is that Michael was actually suppose to die, but then the Red Angel showed up and showed Spock where to find her?  Hmm..

It is no surprise that the Red Angel - Starfleet's highest priority - is all about Michael in some way. 
Why did the Talosians need to bargain for Michael's memory of the 'irreparable' psychological damage done to Spock as a child? They had Spock's memory of it, so what's the difference? It was odd that Michael was apologizing for the incident as if some secret had been revealed - -but it was no secret to Spock. 

It appeared as if the Talosians' illusions are more than illusions if they can cause the transporters to function as if actual objects are being moved. If Vina's beautiful appearance is just an illusion, does that mean she actually feels old, disheveled and scarred? 

Not sure what will happen with Hugh and Stamets, but the trope of "lovers who can never be together" has been done to death on television. 
By some type of magic, Hugh's memories and personality have been transferred twice: once to the mycelial network and then to a freshly grown body back in our world. He is truly not the same person as before because the original Hugh died and was buried(?). 

I don't understand how 23rd century science can recreate memories from DNA and transfer memories from one body to another (Ash/Voq) - but for some reason cannot revive a body that has only been dead for a few minutes. 
 

[John Potts]

Did Burnham/Spock cripple the ship before escaping? Because surely a starship can run down a shuttle in about 5 seconds (which I'm pretty sure weren't Warp capable at the time).

"Vina's with him in her cave"! But I was getting Star Trek V vibes when they started asking about looking into Spock/Michael's pain - definitely not a good sign.

Michael - it's not all about you (However much the writers want it to be)! Glad Spock said as much.

Where did Michael learn to be emotionally manipulative like that? It couldn't possibly be on Vulcan. I could get Michael getting mad at Spock, but not doing so for his own good (as we're meant to believe) at that age. Nor could I believe that Spock would still be upset by it years later.

Not surprised Hugh broke up with Stamets - I get it's a difficult situation, but before you suggest solutions, maybe ask what your formerly dead husband wants first? And maybe suggest a couple of weeks on Risa (or wherever) rather than just hanging out on the ship?

On 3/8/2019 at 9:44 AM, MissLucas said:

The Culber/Tyler confrontation was great and I liked Tyler's parting words - maybe these two could start a self-help group? And Pike noticed that ganglia-Saru would not have approved the testosterone filled conflict solution - smart.

While I'm sure Starfleet doesn't have procedures for dealing with surgically altered Klingons or people who've returned from the dead (a shocking lapse on their part!), I'm pretty sure the Uniform Code does have regulations about Officers hitting each other, Maybe you let them get a couple of swings in first, but call Security as well?

On 3/20/2019 at 12:14 AM, paigow said:

Whilst the Talosians were giving themselves makeovers....

Or maybe that's just what they made you think they looked like...

On 3/10/2019 at 9:28 PM, Lebanna said:

At some point, Airiam is going to to say ‘I see three lights’... right? 

THERE! ARE! FOUR! LIGHTS! (Sorry, wrong part of the franchise)

[Idiotboy]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:17 AM, KimberStormer said:

I really cannot find the words for how much I hate having Spock on this show.

Word. And: The Red Angel is the harbinger of the Apocalypse? I called it.

[Tachi Rocinante]

-- Way behind on DVD --

I like the actress, but Tilly's childish outbursts are getting old already.