S03.E11: Songbird Road, Part One

[Booklady1017]

27 minutes ago, kissedbyarose said:

Oh man... I know this too but thank you for correcting and reminding me. 

This and Phylicia Rashad might make up for the fact that it took three seasons to get here and we had to endure that political storyline first...

Good point Kissedbyarose.

[funnygirl]

I do not appreciate, nor will I accept, any posthumous Jack slander the writers put out there. 

[tennisgurl]

I think a lot of Jack not wanting to see Nicky had something to do with the same reasons behind his constant Super Dad stuff. He is constantly afraid of becoming like his father, who we saw in flashbacks started out as a nice, caring father and husband, then become and abusive alcoholic later on in life. I think with his family, he overcompensated, hoping that if he was the perfect father, he would never fall down the hole his own father did. There might have even have been some wish fulfillment, like he wanted to give his kids the amazing father and childhood that he never had. And with Nicky, he just tried to amputate that dark part of his past, out of fear that he would get pulled under by that darkness. I think that Jack always feared that he could become his father, that he had that same darkness in him. In Vietnam, he was that darkness. And he saw that in Nicky, angry and increasing an addict, especially after what happened with the kid. Maybe he thought that if he was around Nicky more, he would start down that same path of bitterness and addiction that his father and Nicky went down at some point? 

I wish that Jack had given his brother another chance, but I can get why he made the choice to cut him off. Its maybe not the right choice that Kevin made, but I get it. 

[izabella]

31 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think that Jack always feared that he could become his father, that he had that same darkness in him. In Vietnam, he was that darkness. And he saw that in Nicky, angry and increasing an addict, especially after what happened with the kid. Maybe he thought that if he was around Nicky more, he would start down that same path of bitterness and addiction that his father and Nicky went down at some point? 

I wish that Jack had given his brother another chance, but I can get why he made the choice to cut him off. Its maybe not the right choice that Kevin made, but I get it. 

I think, at first, Jack needed the distance from Nicky to process what had happened.  Later, I think he didn't want to bring Nicky into his family's life.  Jack could have told himself it was for the best to protect his family from the kind of issues Nicky was dealing with.

[Aloeonatable]

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Maybe Mom Pearson died while the boys were in Vietnam?

No, because when Rebecca was delivering the twins, Jack told Dr. K that his mother knitted 3 onesies ( and apparently she was a no-talented, slow knitter, at that!)

[chocolatine]

6 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

No, because when Rebecca was delivering the twins, Jack told Dr. K that his mother knitted 3 onesies ( and apparently she was a no-talented, slow knitter, at that!)

I don't know why the post you quoted is being attributed to me, but it's not my post. I did say upthread that Jack's mother made the onesies.

[actionboss]

Two things that seemed to be set up for revisiting;

When Rebecca told Miguel that Nicky had been found, he started to say something but changed his mind. Maybe Jack confided to Miguel about Nicky.

When Jack said that Randall had “found” him, Nicky seemed to understand that as some kind of sibling code.

[kili]

Quote

But hadn't Nicky only become an addict in Vietnam? I can understand being done after years of problems from the addiction, but Jack had just gotten to Vietnam and found out Nicky had become an addict. The timeline wasn't super clear, but I got the impression the explosion was within a couple weeks of when Nicky and Jack were re-united.

It was just over two weeks that Nicky and Jack were re-united in Vietnam. At the end of "Sometimes", the CO tells Jack he has two weeks to fix his brother. At the start of the "Beginning is the End is the Beginning", Jack is on the radio with his CO admitting that it has been two weeks, but he begs for a few extra days. He later tells Nicky that they have just 48 hours more together. By the end of the episode, the boat explosion has occurred.

Jack attempted to get an addict to quit doing drugs by depriving him of drugs and giving him the odd pep talk or light lecture. By the time Jack finds Nicky, Nicky is already badly psychological damaged by the war and self-medicating with drugs. There was little chance that Jack was going to be successful with his village rehab program. Two weeks is not nearly enough. The addict is the one who needs to decide he wants to quit. And Nicky clearly needed some serious counselling. The other guys in the squad try to get Jack to see that - to see how badly damaged his brother really was.

I agree that a lot of Jack's rejection of Nicky comes from a place of self-blame. He was meant to fix Nicky, but by dragging him to the village, he inadvertently destroyed Nicky. And a child died.  The death isn't Jack's fault, but he likes to take the world's troubles on his shoulders. He needs to fix everything and if they don't stay fixed, he blames himself. He ran into a burning house to save a dog and some knickknacks that how much he has to fix things.

Jack doesn't like to dwell on his own feelings - he just sublimates them. He tells Kevin to do the same thing. He never unpacks is issues and deals with them. He thinks he can cure his alcoholism with a few punches to a punching bag. Ignore your problems. Just keep swimming. Hakuna Matata.

 

Quote

It would have been better for the series if they had gone back and Nicky had committed suicide.  That would definitely send a message to the "big 3" that they shouldn't be meddling in other people's lives.  Meddling has consequences.  More often then not those consequences aren't good. 

Nicky has spent the last 50 years barely existing. He needed something to shake up his life. It almost caused him to commit suicide, but it may also help him to start living again.

When Jack gave Kevin his "special necklace" after Kevin was injured, I thought it was a great gesture. When I found out the necklace was a gift for saving a little boy's foot, I still thought Jack meant well by giving Kevin the necklace (another boy he's saving? a taiisman to do the right thing and protect others?). Now I find out that the necklace Jack always wore was a reminder of the boy who Jack saved and who is brother caused to be killed and then Jack cut his brother out of his life and Jack kind of blames himself for the whole thing. And this is all fresh in his memory because he hands it over right after visiting the War Memorial and Randall asked about finding Nicky's name on the wall.  I'm now a little perplexed as to what Jack meant by giving that necklace to Kevin. "Son, I'm sorry your in major pain and your dream of becoming a football player is crushed and you'll never go to college. Here, take my don't-become-a-drug-addict-and-espically-don't-kill-a-kid necklace"? (maybe it actually works - it is when he has lost the necklace that Kevin drives drunk with Tess in the car). 

[debraran]

1 hour ago, kili said:

It was just over two weeks that Nicky and Jack were re-united in Vietnam. At the end of "Sometimes", the CO tells Jack he has two weeks to fix his brother. At the start of the "Beginning is the End is the Beginning", Jack is on the radio with his CO admitting that it has been two weeks, but he begs for a few extra days. He later tells Nicky that they have just 48 hours more together. By the end of the episode, the boat explosion has occurred.

Jack attempted to get an addict to quit doing drugs by depriving him of drugs and giving him the odd pep talk or light lecture. By the time Jack finds Nicky, Nicky is already badly psychological damaged by the war and self-medicating with drugs. There was little chance that Jack was going to be successful with his village rehab program. Two weeks is not nearly enough. The addict is the one who needs to decide he wants to quit. And Nicky clearly needed some serious counselling. The other guys in the squad try to get Jack to see that - to see how badly damaged his brother really was.

I agree that a lot of Jack's rejection of Nicky comes from a place of self-blame. He was meant to fix Nicky, but by dragging him to the village, he inadvertently destroyed Nicky. And a child died.  The death isn't Jack's fault, but he likes to take the world's troubles on his shoulders. He needs to fix everything and if they don't stay fixed, he blames himself. He ran into a burning house to save a dog and some knickknacks that how much he has to fix things.

Jack doesn't like to dwell on his own feelings - he just sublimates them. He tells Kevin to do the same thing. He never unpacks is issues and deals with them. He thinks he can cure his alcoholism with a few punches to a punching bag. Ignore your problems. Just keep swimming. Hakuna Matata.

 

Nicky has spent the last 50 years barely existing. He needed something to shake up his life. It almost caused him to commit suicide, but it may also help him to start living again.

When Jack gave Kevin his "special necklace" after Kevin was injured, I thought it was a great gesture. When I found out the necklace was a gift for saving a little boy's foot, I still thought Jack meant well by giving Kevin the necklace (another boy he's saving? a taiisman to do the right thing and protect others?). Now I find out that the necklace Jack always wore was a reminder of the boy who Jack saved and who is brother caused to be killed and then Jack cut his brother out of his life and Jack kind of blames himself for the whole thing. And this is all fresh in his memory because he hands it over right after visiting the War Memorial and Randall asked about finding Nicky's name on the wall.  I'm now a little perplexed as to what Jack meant by giving that necklace to Kevin. "Son, I'm sorry your in major pain and your dream of becoming a football player is crushed and you'll never go to college. Here, take my don't-become-a-drug-addict-and-espically-don't-kill-a-kid necklace"? (maybe it actually works - it is when he has lost the necklace that Kevin drives drunk with Tess in the car). 

Yes, that wasn't a happy memory attached to it, and he didn't want to forget obviously wearing it, but maybe it was her strength later?

I'm glad you said that about St Jack's rehab. I thought the same thing, he goes and tries to dry his brother out, angry and bitter the whole ball got rolling with the letter to his Mom. He didn't have to go and sometimes our "Savior" attempts don't work, especially under those circumstances. Nicky needed psych help then, but it probably wasn't available unless you really messed up which seems to have happened.  I hate lies, especially between family. My husband had a sibling who wasn't a saint, he doesn't see, but he didn't erase him from family tree by killing him off early. Those lies weigh on you, I don't care how much you shove it down.

I almost wish they had Jack when driving drunk that time, beer cans in car, hit someone, not kill them, but have flashbacks of how he treated his brother, how reckless they both were under the influence. Jack was lucky that night, many are, but then many aren't. I guess AA didn't help him in that regard but my Mom always told me,certain lies get heavier with age, they weigh you down and she's right, unless you have no heart.

[Mommaj]

What a weak plotline. Instead of sending a bunch of cryptic postcards to Jack, why didn't Nicky just write him a letter explaining the accident if he wanted Jack to know what happened so badly? C'mon writers. You can do better than that.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

21 hours ago, Haleth said:

I think it was just a joke.  Randall was hunting his uncle.

I laughed SO HARD when I read your post because it never occurred to me that Randall was making a joke about that! I even googled "uncle hunter pants" thinking it was some new cool brand that I'd never heard of! When I read your explanation, I was like DUH.

17 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Was it stupid to go fishing with grenades?  Yup.  But Nicky did not intend on having anyone die.   That doesn't make him any less responsible for the kid getting killed.    That said, I could see that kid going toes up a mile away.

I agree. I see Nicky's role in that kid's death as similar to a drunk driver who accidentally kills someone. Yes, there is an addiction involved (and like any other illness, that is not their fault). No, there wasn't a premeditated intent to kill someone. But accidentally killing someone while you're under the influence is still killing someone. How much blame can you realistically put on an addict when they're drunk or high? That's up to you and your morals, but I think they still bear some responsibility because a person is dead as a result.

[debraran]

13 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I laughed SO HARD when I read your post because it never occurred to me that Randall was making a joke about that! I even googled "uncle hunter pants" thinking it was some new cool brand that I'd never heard of! When I read your explanation, I was like DUH.

I agree. I see Nicky's role in that kid's death as similar to a drunk driver who accidentally kills someone. Yes, there is an addiction involved (and like any other illness, that is not their fault). No, there wasn't a premeditated intent to kill someone. But accidentally killing someone while you're under the influence is still killing someone. How much blame can you realistically put on an addict when they're drunk or high? That's up to you and your morals, but I think they still bear some responsibility because a person is dead as a result.

You do have some, unless you were high or drugged and it was done to you and not that you willingly did it. They take licenses away trying to make an accident not happen but they can't make a person not drive without it. Some empathy is there when it is something you wouldn't have done sober or not in withdrawal. Nicky wore that grief a long time without help (unless we learn otherwise) If he didn't go to war, who knows? Maybe med school or college and a somewhat normal life.  But life has a way of screwing up the best laid plans.  I remember a truck driver that hit and killed a child in back of his truck he didn't see, kid wandered out of the house, he wasn't charged, but the guilt he felt was enormous. A very heavy burden to carry without help. I'm interested to see how he opens up in time and how he handles the Pearson's and seeing photos of all the years he lost.

As we all know, Jack probably would have forgiven his children or wife, why not Nicky, I'm not sure. Or maybe he wouldn't have. It even confused the actor in an interview, Milo was surprised at the writing on that one but maybe the warts were to even out his character. Maybe Nick was supposed to be dead when they first thought it out.

Edited January 24, 2019 by debraran

[Kdawg82]

I liked the ending with "you have to be careful with that...you can repeat the mistakes of your old man or you can fix them." AMEN, Jack. Amen. I agree I liked the juxtaposition of the big three alongside Jack's visit. Not really a "twist" ending as this show's come to be known for but enjoyable. 

At 1st I wondered how Jack could've kept the fake Nicky death from his parents as they would typically receive a letter at their door from an official (Sergeant, maybe? I'm not sure). Now I realize at the time of Nicky's departure from Vietnam, Jack WAS his superior,  so he informed his own parents. Then got the blame for it all from his dad. So, I can't even blame Jack for the estrangement.  He carried a lot of hurt due to that incident & protecting the truth about Nicky (internal, then from outer forces like his dad) and rose above. Nicky carried a lot of hurt from it and sank beneath.  Brothers different as night & day.

Couldn't help but think...when Nicky spoke of grieving women during the war and the closing in on Kate's face- and the deceased fishing boat boy...could she lose the baby and grieve? Will she fall to her knees as though *her* bones have been taken out? I sure hope not. Let's keep it on the up & up, show.

[debraran]

4 minutes ago, Kdawg82 said:

I liked the ending with "you have to be careful with that...you can repeat the mistakes of your old man or you can fix them." AMEN, Jack. Amen. I agree I liked the juxtaposition of the big three alongside Jack's visit. Not really a "twist" ending as this show's come to be known for but enjoyable. 

At 1st I wondered how Jack could've kept the fake Nicky death from his parents as they would typically receive a letter at their door from an official (Sergeant, maybe? I'm not sure). Now I realize at the time of Nicky's departure from Vietnam, Jack WAS his superior,  so he informed his own parents. Then got the blame for it all from his dad. So, I can't even blame Jack for the estrangement.  He carried a lot of hurt due to that incident & protecting the truth about Nicky (internal, then from outer forces like his dad) and rose above. Nicky carried a lot of hurt from it and sank beneath.  Brothers different as night & day.

Couldn't help but think...when Nicky spoke of grieving women during the war and the closing in on Kate's face- and the deceased fishing boat boy...could she lose the baby and grieve? Will she fall to her knees as though *her* bones have been taken out? I sure hope not. Let's keep it on the up & up, show.

I really loved as another post pointed out, Kevin's hand on Nicky's shoulder, how Nicky closed his eyes and rose to it a little, broke my heart and I haven't been moved to emotion in a long time on this show. When he tried so hard to connect with Jack and he just showed him a photo and said not to contact him. Did he start descending more into a hole after all hope left the door? I'm so glad they have Kevin picking up where his Dad left off but I wish Nicky were younger. I agree, drying out at 70 can be done, easier on TV but a lot of damage all that time. When Jack left him, he was still young, still could work, go in a program, but I hope the writing continues to be good and we leave the silly election stuff behind for a while.

[Johnny Dollar]

Kate’s doctor: “You have an extremely high-risk pregnancy and it was a miracle that we were able to implant a viable embryo considering your and your husband’s respective medical situations. I’d rather that you sit not two hours in a car delivering Adele-O-Grams.”

Kate: “Well that’s disappointing but I know that you’re right. How about me driving an hour to the airport two hours early to catch a five hour flight followed by another hour in an Uber to my brother’s house, immediately followed by another six hour car ride to go hunting a family ghost?”

Kate’s doctor: “Get out of my office.”

[alexvillage]

I liked the episode. I have been annoyed with all the Jack flashback - because he has becoming unlikeable to me, going from a thoughtful person to a selfish one - and by the Vietnam storyline but I do like Nicky now. I can see how tormented he became, even though I don't think he would have survived that long - apparently he has been drinking a lot for all those years. 

Despite the absurdity of Kate simply ignoring her high risk pregnancy, after all the drama to get pregnant, and flying cross country, than driving for hours, I still liked the episode. I particularly liked the directing and editing of it, the past and the present complementing each other. Very well done.

[bettername2come]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And with Nicky, he just tried to amputate that dark part of his past, out of fear that he would get pulled under by that darkness. I think that Jack always feared that he could become his father, that he had that same darkness in him.

I realized that Jack pulled the same “he’s dead to me” move with both his father and brother (though not literally in his father’s case), so there is character continuity. Jack has a tendency to just cut a problem out, bottle it up and move on without seeking help. He did it when he quit drinking without support when the Big 3 were younger.

 

26 minutes ago, debraran said:

I really loved as another post pointed out, Kevin's hand on Nicky's shoulder, how Nicky closed his eyes and rose to it a little

I think this is probably one of those moments where Kevin seemed to someone else to be a lot like Jack. I liked how they did that. It was subtle and believable.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree. I see Nicky's role in that kid's death as similar to a drunk driver who accidentally kills someone. Yes, there is an addiction involved (and like any other illness, that is not their fault). No, there wasn't a premeditated intent to kill someone. But accidentally killing someone while you're under the influence is still killing someone. How much blame can you realistically put on an addict when they're drunk or high? That's up to you and your morals, but I think they still bear some responsibility because a person is dead as a result.

There's no doubt about Nicky's responsibility.  He did the reckless deed that killed a child.  What complicates it a little is there is other blame to go around -- whoever was supposed to be safeguarding ammunition failed, Jack flew in to "save" Nicky and had no idea what he was doing, etc.  The place where my empathy goes to Nick is how much he has suffered for his mistake.  He is in a prison of his own making, with no visible support whatsoever.  That is so grim.

As to Kdawg82 and Johnny Dollar's musing about Kate's pregnancy, I do have to wonder if the show will give Randall an against-all-odds election victory, Kevin success in locating their uncle and learning something significant about their father, and Kate a healthy baby. 

[llewis823]

I thought the actor who plays old Nicky, Griffin Dunne was really believable as the older version of the actor we've been seeing as young Nicky. I also noticed how similar Griffin Dunne's eyes are to Jack's (Milo Ventimiglia). They are that dark, dark brown and kind of "beady". This show is always spot-on in casting different actors for a character's different ages and this one is no exception. I would guess that maybe Griffin Dunne studied "Jack's" mannerisms because some of the eye movements/facial expressions reminded me of Jack's. If he didn't try to capture Jack's mannerisms purposely, it sure was a great coincidence.

All that being said, I am surprised that I actually enjoyed this story line so far. I didn't think I would.

[Cementhead]

21 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

I thought the actor who plays old Nicky, Griffin Dunne was really believable as the older version of the actor we've been seeing as young Nicky.

I agree.  To my eyes and my ears, the transition was seamlessly done.  Something else I noticed was that both young and old Nicky had a mole above their left eye.  So, I just googled to see photos of Griffin Dunne and Michael Angarano because I assumed that one of the two actors had this mole for real.  Michael Angarano does in fact have it and they have given Griffin Dunne one for old Nicky. 

I don't know if I have seen Griffin Dunne in anything before but his performance last night had made me an instant fan.  Bravo to him.  He totally nailed the character of Nicky.  And his sadness and loneliness was felt all the way through the screen into my living room. 

I have only ever seen Michael Angarano as Jack's son on Will & Grace and he has grown up to be a fabulous actor, too.

I must add that I too, agree that the aging of the older Miguel is really, really bad.  Like sophomoric high school play bad and it takes me out of the scene every single time.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Cementhead

[Empress1]

41 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

This show is always spot-on in casting different actors for a character's different ages and this one is no exception.

I don't know who the casting team is for this show, but they deserve a raise. 

24 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

I must add that I too, agree that the aging of the older Miguel is really, really bad.  Like sophomoric high school play bad and it takes me out of the scene every single time.

I agree, and I know I've said this before but I really wish Mandy Moore would get a vocal coach because it's jarring hearing a 30something voice come out of what's supposed to be a 60something woman.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

The place where my empathy goes to Nick is how much he has suffered for his mistake.  He is in a prison of his own making, with no visible support whatsoever.  That is so grim.

It reminded me of Manchester by the Sea, where the protagonist loses his young children in a terrible accident that was his fault and intentionally punishes himself for it - taking shitty jobs, living in shitty apartments, rejecting romantic interests, picking fights. He rejects any chance that comes his way at having a nice life. And even then, that protagonist has people in his life who love him. Nick appears to have had no one, all this time. Decades. It's really haunting to think about.

[auntiemel]

As I watched Griffin Dunne's performance tonight, I couldn't help but be reminded of the ways that the fictional scenario he was acting out mirrored, in some ways, his own real-life tragedy. After his sister was killed by an abusive boyfriend, he spent years keeping track of the perpetrator after his release from prison. He would contact the man's employers and tell them about his history. There was even one memorable story where he went into the dining room of a restaurant where the man was working as a cook and walked up to diners at various tables, asking them if they knew that their dinner had been prepared by a murderer. If memory serves, the guy even tried to get a restraining order against him at one point.

Then, at a certain point, he let it go. He said he just couldn't continue on making his entire life about the pursuit of making this man pay. He realized that if he was going to have any kind of a peaceful life of his own, he had to move past this man, get on with his life separate from the tragedy.

Now, in this piece, to be playing a character who did allow his life to be swallowed by its worst moments, who never reached that epiphany of needing to figure out how to move on from his trauma, I wonder if he's having some serious "darkest timeline" feelings. Like, seeing the road not taken, and it ain't pretty.

[Quickbeam]

1 hour ago, Cementhead said:

 

I don't know if I have seen Griffin Dunne in anything before but his performance last night had made me an instant fan. 

He's my age so I have followed his career for a long time. "After Hours" (Directed by Martin Scorsese) is great and I also loved him in "American Werewolf in London". 

[theatremouse]

7 hours ago, actionboss said:

When Jack said that Randall had “found” him, Nicky seemed to understand that as some kind of sibling code.

I really disliked that line. It was a very Jack euphemism, but this is not idiomatic enough that Nicky should've understood what he meant without additional discussion. We never saw them using this type of phrase before. I assume what Nicky was getting at with his remark was "did your wife cheat on you or did you cheat on your wife or is one kid adopted" and Jack's answer was not clear at all, or possibly should've implied to Nicky Randall was Jack's from a relationship with someone else. "He found me" without the whole hospital story is a confusing as fuck thing to say. But it was presented as a totally clear explanation in that scene. They didn't even make it seem like off-camera he might've elaborated. It was annoying.

[Manda317]

I am wondering if something happened after Nicky left for psychiatric treatment that is bothering Jack as well. Perhaps the boy's death led someone in the village to aid the enemy and some of Jack's men died. That would connect back to the villagers Jack saw aiding the enemy when he traveled to see Nicky.  It is also possible that he just blames himself for Nicky's behavior since he is the one that brought him there. There is just obviously something that he can't face, and it feels like it is more than his brother caused a horrible accident, which, I agree with previous posters, was obviously an accident. If something else happened that Jack had a difficult time dealing with, that may help explain why Jack was unable to return to his brother and help him. 

I am pretty sure that Nicky's parents knew he was alive because they were his next of kin and would have been notified of his hospitalization. The family probably never spoke of him because it was too painful. IIRC, Rebecca never met Jack's dad until he was on his death bed, so Jack's mom is the only one who ever had the chance to say anything, and we don't know how long she lived or how she reacted.

[ShadowFacts]

55 minutes ago, Manda317 said:

I am wondering if something happened after Nicky left for psychiatric treatment that is bothering Jack as well. Perhaps the boy's death led someone in the village to aid the enemy and some of Jack's men died. That would connect back to the villagers Jack saw aiding the enemy when he traveled to see Nicky.  It is also possible that he just blames himself for Nicky's behavior since he is the one that brought him there. There is just obviously something that he can't face, and it feels like it is more than his brother caused a horrible accident, which, I agree with previous posters, was obviously an accident. If something else happened that Jack had a difficult time dealing with, that may help explain why Jack was unable to return to his brother and help him. 

I am pretty sure that Nicky's parents knew he was alive because they were his next of kin and would have been notified of his hospitalization. The family probably never spoke of him because it was too painful. IIRC, Rebecca never met Jack's dad until he was on his death bed, so Jack's mom is the only one who ever had the chance to say anything, and we don't know how long she lived or how she reacted.

I don't know if there will be any more Vietnam episodes, but if they left it as it is right now, I think there's tragedy enough already.  Nicky put his finger on it, Jack saw things black and white, and I think Miguel said he compartmentalized before and after Vietnam.  I think that adds up to Jack could not handle moral or emotional complexity.  Yet there probably is more to come, if not in Vietnam, then back home after the war.  He may have, as someone mentioned above, resolved to meet with Nicky again and it never happened for some reason. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/22/2019 at 11:18 PM, lucindabelle said:

So after all that... it was an accident... and jack wouldn’t even hear him out? And lied that he was dead???

 

ugh this is not the Jack we met in season one. This is retrofitted. Sad and not believable.

I think that in order to fully function with his wife and family, Jack had to put the war fully behind him. If Nicky had returned from the war without this horrible event, the brothers could have agreed to never discuss Vietnam and remained in each others' lives. But for Jack, every time he saw Nicky brought back memories that threatened to derail his current life. He already felt terribly guilty for the soldier who died playing football.  Nicky's incident was something he could never put aside as long as Nicky was around. Therapy would have been the better choice,  but that was never going to happen,  so cutting off that part of his life was the solution.  Black and white.  Nicky told the kids that himself.

My one question: if Nicky had wanted to blow up the kid, going out in a boat with him, tossing a grenade and then jumping out of the boat (or jumping out and tossing the grenade in) would have been a really risky way to do it.  After some time to think about it, I don't believe that Jack would have really thought that that was what Nicky had done.  Perhaps he could have believed that Nick wanted to kill himself, too, but not that he wanted to just murder the boy.

[MsChicklet]

Jack had always been the caretaker of Nicky and the protector of his mom. His path as a Superman bearing his burdens stoically had been been set young by his family. Now, thanks to his joining the Army to go protect and save Nicky, he had a platoon of soldiers he was responsible for, and the obligation of protecting the village. He took those responsibilities seriously, as was shown in his guilt over the soldier who died playing football. Nicky's own problems, his drug abuse, his behavior, his dislike and distrust of the locals, were more burdens Jack felt he had to bear and fix. What Nicky did added more pain and guilt for Jack to bear, more responsibility as this could put his men in danger of retaliation, and the bitter reality that he had failed at his ultimate goal of getting Nicky home whole.

Jack has to finish his tour -- and god only knows what happens during that time -- goes home with the wounds of his grief and guilt still raw and his father pours salt on them. So Jack did what so many veterans, so many stoics, do. They try to cut off the source of the pain for what they see as their own survival. Jack tried to do it through estrangement, alcohol and trying to be the perfect husband and dad. But the pain was still there, and that along with the responsibilities of providing for a wife and family meant that Jack couldn't and wouldn't take on having Nicky, with all his problems, in his life again.

Edited January 25, 2019 by MsChicklet

[blondiec0332]

5 hours ago, auntiemel said:

As I watched Griffin Dunne's performance tonight, I couldn't help but be reminded of the ways that the fictional scenario he was acting out mirrored, in some ways, his own real-life tragedy. After his sister was killed by an abusive boyfriend, he spent years keeping track of the perpetrator after his release from prison. He would contact the man's employers and tell them about his history. There was even one memorable story where he went into the dining room of a restaurant where the man was working as a cook and walked up to diners at various tables, asking them if they knew that their dinner had been prepared by a murderer. If memory serves, the guy even tried to get a restraining order against him at one point.

Then, at a certain point, he let it go. He said he just couldn't continue on making his entire life about the pursuit of making this man pay. He realized that if he was going to have any kind of a peaceful life of his own, he had to move past this man, get on with his life separate from the tragedy.

I remember his father Dominic saying once someone had offered to "take care" of his daughter's killer but he declined the offer.

[ShadowFacts]

Something I haven't seen touched on is Rebecca's comment at the end of the episode when Miguel was saying that Jack had pushed away the darkness so he could have the light that was Rebecca and the kids.  She said she used to like that answer, but not anymore.  It will be interesting to see how she processes all of it.

I also noted that when Jack received the post cards at work, it looked like he threw them in a drawer, not in the trash.  I may be wrong about that, but if that's what he did, he apparently wasn't willing to totally erase Nicky. 

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I really disliked that line. It was a very Jack euphemism, but this is not idiomatic enough that Nicky should've understood what he meant without additional discussion. We never saw them using this type of phrase before. I assume what Nicky was getting at with his remark was "did your wife cheat on you or did you cheat on your wife or is one kid adopted" and Jack's answer was not clear at all, or possibly should've implied to Nicky Randall was Jack's from a relationship with someone else. "He found me" without the whole hospital story is a confusing as fuck thing to say. But it was presented as a totally clear explanation in that scene. They didn't even make it seem like off-camera he might've elaborated. It was annoying.

I interpreted it differently. I think that Jack didn't want Nicky to think that he had been trying to "compensate" for the death of the boy in Vietnam by looking for a child to save, so Jack made a point of telling Nicky that it was Randall who found Jack, not the other way around.

[Driad]

19 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I also noted that when Jack received the post cards at work, it looked like he threw them in a drawer, not in the trash.  I may be wrong about that, but if that's what he did, he apparently wasn't willing to totally erase Nicky. 

When Jack died, can we assume that people at work offered Jack's non-work-related things to Rebecca?

[theatremouse]

I like this interpretation and now that you've said it I think it's what the writer's were going for, but I still think it's completely unreasonable for Nicky to get that out of the exchange as written. There is zero context other than for us as the audience watching the episode seeing all the flashbacks. As a response to what Nicky actually said in that moment, I think it's highly improbable Nicky could've understood that, as a standalone remark, to have all that subtext. Even if Jack had just said "He's adopted. - He found me." that would've had the type of effect suggesting Jack didn't go looking. But standalone, I would expect Nicky to think Randall is Jack's bio kid with some other woman, who Jack maybe didn't know existed at birth, and he's now raising with his wife and other two kids.

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think a lot of Jack not wanting to see Nicky had something to do with the same reasons behind his constant Super Dad stuff. He is constantly afraid of becoming like his father, who we saw in flashbacks started out as a nice, caring father and husband, then become and abusive alcoholic later on in life. I think with his family, he overcompensated, hoping that if he was the perfect father, he would never fall down the hole his own father did. There might have even have been some wish fulfillment, like he wanted to give his kids the amazing father and childhood that he never had. And with Nicky, he just tried to amputate that dark part of his past, out of fear that he would get pulled under by that darkness. I think that Jack always feared that he could become his father, that he had that same darkness in him. In Vietnam, he was that darkness. And he saw that in Nicky, angry and increasing an addict, especially after what happened with the kid. Maybe he thought that if he was around Nicky more, he would start down that same path of bitterness and addiction that his father and Nicky went down at some point? 

I think this is spot on.  Jack's dad wasn't always abusive.  The episode when Nicky was born showed Jack's grandfather as being pretty bad, Jack's dad later became that.  I think Jack feared he'd become that way too.  He wanted t keep Nicky away from his family, probably because of Nicky's addiction.  When you see shit like that, sometimes you overcompensate.  Jack wanted to be the perfect father, he didn't want to have ANY darkness around him, didn't want it to touch his family.  To me that's why he kept Nicky away.  To Jack Nicky was an addict and because of that addiction, a boy died.  Jack just didn't want to take the chance of bringing that into his family.  

I don't think Jack was wrong for doing that at all.  How many people have known something was "not quite right" with a relative, bring that relative around their family only to have something bad happen?  Nope, Jack just didn't want to take that chance.

[chocolatine]

12 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think Jack was wrong for doing that at all.  How many people have known something was "not quite right" with a relative, bring that relative around their family only to have something bad happen?  Nope, Jack just didn't want to take that chance.

There's a huge difference between not wanting a relative around your family and telling everyone that said relative is dead. Jack could have told Rebecca that his brother is troubled and had done bad things in the war, so Jack doesn't want him to meet the kids, but that he would be visiting him occasionally and try to help him get better. 

[auntiemel]

1 hour ago, blondiec0332 said:

I remember his father Dominic saying once someone had offered to "take care" of his daughter's killer but he declined the offer.

He's a better person than me. That would've been a tough offer to refuse.

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

There's a huge difference between not wanting a relative around your family and telling everyone that said relative is dead. Jack could have told Rebecca that his brother is troubled and had done bad things in the war, so Jack doesn't want him to meet the kids, but that he would be visiting him occasionally and try to help him get better. 

Absolutely.  A grown person such as Rebecca would have understood, and eventually the kids could have learned some compassion from it (which wouldn't have hurt them). 

[BTBAM310]

I was getting physically angry at this episode.  Like a few people said here with the last one, I might be done.

They REALLY dragged out that storyline with the brother and what happened in Vietnam. We fast forwarded through all of it in every episode.

When Kevin said "road trip for the big three" at the beginning, my eyes rolled back so far I felt it.

When Jack's brother asked them to leave, and Kate said "no!" I wanted to throw something at the TV.

I was fully expecting Jack to emerge from the back of the mobile home.  I wouldn't put it past this show to do that.

[DebbieM4]

On 1/22/2019 at 10:03 PM, debraran said:

I wasn't surprised by what happened, I knew the boy would be part of it, but Jack's coldness for decades, horrible. He never gave him a chance, it's not believable to me. No letter explaining it, Jack ignores his postcards begging him? I thought Nicky was trying to commit suicide with the number of drugs he took beforehand, before the boy came, but that was his choice, his addiction. For Jack to think that gentle Nicky would murder a little boy, not buying it. Not buying he kept his family from him like he was a pedophile. I hope he gets cleaned up and has some years with the overbearing Pearson's, but this story had a missing component. Jack was as cold as his dad and totally unreasonable.

 

I agree.  That was harsh.  No one knew exactly what happened, and at the very least he should have asked.  If not then, then how about all that time later when Nicky was living in squalor and asking for nothing other than the chance to tell him the truth?  I get that Jack wanted to protect himself, but that's selfish.  This is his little brother, the one he promised to protect, the one who had clearly been struggling, the one who just wanted to be heard.  Let him say what happened, and then believe it or not, walk out of his life or not, but at least give him 5 seconds to talk.  The way that scene played out made no sense to me.

If Jack had gone thru with that robbery and someone had been killed by mistake, wouldn't he want at least to be heard?

And if he lied to his mother and said that Nicky had died, that's completely unforgiveable.  Saint Jack my ass.

On 1/22/2019 at 10:04 PM, Spartan Girl said:

 

As bad as I feel for Nicky, I can't help understanding why Jack cut him off after that. He obviously felt responsible for what happened too, since he was the one that insisted on Nicky be brought out to his area to clean out. And Nicky's past talk about how "civilians were the enemy" was pretty daming. I think maybe deep down he knew it was an accident (even if Nicky never told him) but that doesn't make it any better.

He may or may not have suspected it was an accident, but he didn't know.  Because he didn't ask and he didn't let Nicky tell.  Clearly he came to his own conclusion, and didn't even give his brother a chance.  I don't understand what Jack did at all.

[PRgal]

I guess Nicky doesn't have a TV - otherwise, he SHOULD recognize Kevin (since he's a celeb), shouldn't he?  Or at least have a vague idea of him?  

[chitowngirl]

10 hours ago, debraran said:

I really loved as another post pointed out, Kevin's hand on Nicky's shoulder, how Nicky closed his eyes and rose to it a little, broke my heart and I haven't been moved to emotion in a long time on this show

My thought during that scene was how long has it been since Nick felt another human’s touch? 

[ShadowFacts]

I saw a TV high on the wall.  He may not have been into sitcoms.

Another maybe throwaway line was Nicky told Jack he used to have a house, but this (trailer) was better, easier to maintain.  If true, maybe he was better for awhile, then relapsed. 

[DebbieM4]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:54 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Also, Jack was able to sit in the trailer and reminisce somewhat warmly about old times as kids, but then leave and totally cut his brother off?  Did not work for me.

 

That was jarring.  His anger/guilt/contempt/whatever didn't prevent him from kicking back and reminiscing with a smile, yet when Nicky tried so desperately to explain what happened, Jack wouldn't listen.  Someone with that much anger/guilt/contempt toward someone would be more likely to show up, say, "I can't even look at you", and then leave.  Full stop.   Based on the severity of Jack's feelings about having Nicky completely out of his life in a "You're dead to me!" way, that scene just didn't ring true to me at all. 

(IMO this was poor writing.  If it was intended to show that Jack had some uncertainty about cutting Nicky off, they should have simply used the later scene with Jack deciding which direction to go before heading home in his car.)

 

On 1/23/2019 at 9:00 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

 

Another thing, Jack and Nicky's parents knew that Nicky was alive.  They were his next of kin and the army would have contacted them if Nicky had died.  Jack would never have been able to hide this.  I guess we will see more flashbacks about this time when it comes to their mother.  

I think it would be possible for his parents not to know the truth.  Jack could have told them that he himself had been notified that Nicky had died.  Perhaps he even said he had been there when it happened.  In the midst of their grief, it's unlikely they would have questioned who should have been officially notified, and they would have no reason to believe that Jack wasn't telling the truth.   But you're right - There's more to come, so maybe we'll learn more about this.  

[Snewtsie]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:04 AM, Blakeston said:

This episode made me think about my grandfather.

My grandfather was a kind, patient, caring man. At his funeral, lots of people came out of the woodwork to say that he was one of the nicest people they'd ever met. My grandmother (his second wife) was very sickly for forty years, and he took incredible care of her every step of the way.

But he had some skeletons in his closet, for sure. His first wife had been emotionally abusive and adulterous - and when he first found out about the adultery, he punched her in the jaw, and she had to go to the emergency room. He was sentenced to probation, and they got a divorce.

My grandfather never had contact with her again. He also completely washed his hands of their son, who was around 10 years old at the time. Their son was a sweet kid, who had done absolutely nothing wrong. But my grandfather couldn't bear to be around him, because his son was a reminder of the pain of his marriage, and the guilt he carried with him from the assault.

No one who knew him has ever been able to reconcile how the wonderful man they knew could do something so hurtful to an innocent child. And I imagine Jack's family will feel the same way about Jack's abandonment of Nicky (even though Nicky was far from an innocent child).

My point is, people will go to enormous lengths to protect themselves from reminders of trauma. They'll do things that seem unconscionable, and are wildly inconsistent with their overall personalities.

I don't think Jack was sitting in judgement of Nicky. And I don't think he was proclaiming that Nicky was undeserving of love or acknowledgement. He just didn't have the strength to acknowledge Nicky, period. Nicky wasn't just a reminder that Jack's decisions ultimately led to a child's death; he was a reminder of all of the horror that Jack experienced in Vietnam. And he felt that he had to choose between being a good husband and father, and dealing with those reminders.

I rarely read the comments that are about a poster's personal life, but the story of your grandfather pulled me in.  I believe you offer the most accurate explanation of why Jack behaved the way he did. Thank you for sharing.

[auntiemel]

20 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

That was jarring.  His anger/guilt/contempt/whatever didn't prevent him from kicking back and reminiscing with a smile, yet when Nicky tried so desperately to explain what happened, Jack wouldn't listen.  Someone with that much anger/guilt/contempt toward someone would be more likely to show up, say, "I can't even look at you", and then leave.  Full stop.   Based on the severity of Jack's feelings about having Nicky completely out of his life in a "You're dead to me!" way, that scene just didn't ring true to me at all. 

(IMO this was poor writing.  If it was intended to show that Jack had some uncertainty about cutting Nicky off, they should have simply used the later scene with Jack deciding which direction to go before heading home in his car.)

Several people have posted that they had problems with this, but it was the part that rang truest for me. I think because I've experienced similar emotions, although obviously not as extreme or charged, when seeing an estranged friend or an ex-boyfriend. Almost without realizing it, you fall back into an affectionate pattern for a moment, maybe over a memory or an inside joke, but then something happens that reminds you of all the hurt between you and it's almost worse because you had just let your guard down.

I've experienced exactly that dynamic on more than one occasion.

[CrystalBlue]

45 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

I think it would be possible for his parents not to know the truth.  Jack could have told them that he himself had been notified that Nicky had died.  Perhaps he even said he had been there when it happened.  In the midst of their grief, it's unlikely they would have questioned who should have been officially notified, and they would have no reason to believe that Jack wasn't telling the truth.   But you're right - There's more to come, so maybe we'll learn more about this.  

If Jack had told his parents that Nicky was dead, it would not have been in the capacity of the U.S. Army because the military does not allow relatives to deliver death notifications.  If it was just Jack telling his parents their son was dead, they would have wanted his body back from Viet Nam for a proper burial.

[Snewtsie]

I am glad they are tearing down the illusion that Jack was so perfect in every way.  It's bugged me since the show began.  This new side of him will make his character more true to life and more interesting for us viewers.

Personally though, I think Rebecca would resist negative info on Jack and even become hostile to anyone who doesn't hold up the saint image.  It's been my experience that surviving spouses (& parents, and sometimes adult kids) cling to their to their idealistic 'memories' of the one they lost, at all costs.  

[DebbieM4]

2 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

If Jack had told his parents that Nicky was dead, it would not have been in the capacity of the U.S. Army because the military does not allow relatives to deliver death notifications.  If it was just Jack telling his parents their son was dead, they would have wanted his body back from Viet Nam for a proper burial.

I understand that.  But what I said is that in their grief, they might not have been focused on the particulars.  And Jack might have told them there was no body to bury.

My point was that it's certainly possible the parents would have believed Nicky was dead even if he actually wasn't.   They had no reason to believe that Jack - of all people! - would not be telling them the truth.

[CrystalBlue]

1 minute ago, DebbieM4 said:

I understand that.  But what I said is that in their grief, they might not have been focused on the particulars.  And Jack might have told them there was no body to bury.

My point was that it's certainly possible the parents would have believed Nicky was dead even if he actually wasn't.   They had no reason to believe that Jack - of all people! - would not be telling them the truth.

The parents would still be expecting official notification from the U.S. Army, especially the elder Mr. Pearson.  To just tell his mom and dad that Nicky went blooey up in a puff of smoke from a bomb would still need documentation.

[DebbieM4]

On 1/24/2019 at 6:30 PM, CrystalBlue said:

The parents would still be expecting official notification from the U.S. Army, especially the elder Mr. Pearson.  To just tell his mom and dad that Nicky went blooey up in a puff of smoke from a bomb would still need documentation.

They might have been expecting official notification, but they also might not have.   We don't know the state of their minds at the time (especially his father)  or what was said.  I can easily see Jack staying one step ahead of them:  "I was there when it happened, I received the notification, I have the documentation", etc.  And that's if they asked for any proof at all, which I think is unlikely.

I'm not saying that's what happened.  I'm just saying that I think it's completely possible they could have believed that Nicky had died.  

Edited January 28, 2019 by DebbieM4