Endeavour - General Discussion

[JudyObscure]

I hate Win.  Always have.  If my husband blew our  life savings on one of his greedy brother's schemes I'd be furious for weeks.  Then I'd get over it or get divorced.  Employing the silent treatment for what seemed like years over money is not a person who loves.

Win crossed all sort of no-go boundaries this time. If your child is in danger, or even dead, no matter how much you might think it, never tell the other parent it's their fault.  Not if that parent encouraged the job, or the sport or the date to the prom -- whatever caused their death.  It's unforgivable to do that.

A lesser but still awful thing is to tell someone they're awful at their career like she did to Joan.

Then  for Win to tell Fred that if he went out to save Morse's life rather than sit and hold her hand, he should not come home?  Oh I'd welcome the opening.

[JudyObscure]

11 hours ago, Driad said:

Bright wears his hair longer than most of the other men. Was this the style when he was younger?

I just watched the short videos on the PBS site and in Anton Lesser's he says he was very excited to see Bright was an artist, "Another dimension to the character!" So it occurred to me his longer hair might be because he was seeing himself as an artistic person right now.

[jrlr]

4 hours ago, Alistaire said:

I don't know what to say. I really don't know what to say. It's as if my beloved "Endeavour" became an episode, a very bad episode, of "The X-Files."

I just... Why?

Why?

I'm heartbroken and angry and feel betrayed. Not to respect fictional characters when you're not produced and watched by millions--that's one thing. Not to respect how millions respect them is quite another.

I don't know what to say. I will wonder--not often, hopefully--what in God's name I watched last night, what travesty of the trust this series engendered in its audience.

I hope everyone has a good summer.

I'm in total agreement with you - I thought the last episode was just a mess.  Morse meets Agatha Christie on the Orient Express mixed with Ten Little Indians. 

Morse as a drunken sot going through alcohol withdrawals may have been appropriate given where he has been heading, but it was overdone and sympathy-draining. Win - although understandably a wreck over Sam's fate - lashing out in the ugliest ways possible, and mentioning Lemington(?), which I presume is where Joan had the affair with the married man and either got beaten up or pregnant by him - was vicious. 

The trickery at the beginning that allowed Morse's presence on the murder bus to only be revealed later was irritatingly gimmicky; and the entire locked-room conceit of everyone being stuck at the murder mansion being picked off one by one was too familiar to be interesting.  As to the Thursdays knowing about Joan and Strange, Fred does not and Win does (because she saw them hugging). 

It's hard to believe that the writers couldn't come up with anything better than this irritating chaos.  After so many seasons of great Endeavor, this was an enormous disappointment.  

[SnapHappy]

23 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I hate Win.  Always have.  If my husband blew our  life savings on one of his greedy brother's schemes I'd be furious for weeks.  Then I'd get over it or get divorced.  Employing the silent treatment for what seemed like years over money is not a person who loves.

Win crossed all sort of no-go boundaries this time. If your child is in danger, or even dead, no matter how much you might think it, never tell the other parent it's their fault.  Not if that parent encouraged the job, or the sport or the date to the prom -- whatever caused their death.  It's unforgivable to do that.

A lesser but still awful thing is to tell someone they're awful at their career like she did to Joan.

Then  for Win to tell Fred that if he went out to save Morse's life rather than sit and hold her hand, he should not come home?  Oh I'd welcome the opening.

I can't stand her either.  And isn't son Sam in the Army somewhere outside of England? Maybe Germany, or at least someplace not local? And just WTF is Fred supposed to do to find him?  

Sure, the Military just LOVES having parents charging in, looking for their AWOL kids.  Even if he is law enforcement, they would NOT welcome papa Thursday.  

I can't believe she called him a coward.  Where did THAT come from? When has he behaved cowardly?

Joan doesn't bother me at all.  She's made the mistakes young women make, and I like her with Strange.  He's uncomplicated, but not dumb.  And he has so much less baggage than Morse.  

[graybrown bird]

I couldn't buy the cliched main plot:  a haunted mansion with a freaky costumed killer picking off people one by one.  I thought the single scariest image was Win in that hallway unloading on Fred.  The hatred in her face was terrifying.

[Mermaid Under]

Quote

If my husband blew our  life savings on one of his greedy brother's schemes I'd be furious for weeks. 

It was her brother; but I agree Win hasn't been a very rational or happy character in her rare appearances.  

Quote

Bright wears his hair longer than most of the other men. Was this the style when he was younger?

Quote

 So it occurred to me his longer hair might be because he was seeing himself as an artistic person right now.

The story I told myself was that he hadn't been as careful about his appearance since his wife died, therefore the longer hair.

[sugarbaker design]

41 minutes ago, jrlr said:

It's hard to believe that the writers couldn't come up with anything better than this irritating chaos.  After so many seasons of great Endeavor, this was an enormous disappointment.  

Love your post but one correction.  There's only one writer, Russell Lewis.  He also adapts the much better Grace on Britbox.

43 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

 And isn't son Sam in the Army somewhere outside of England? 

Northern Ireland, during the Troubles.

[Zella]

9 hours ago, magdalene said:

  I am confused about Sam, have we ever met Sam? Did I forget something? Why should I care about Sam all of a sudden?

He was in the early seasons quite a bit. I don't remember exactly when he went in the Army, but he has been shown before and not as a one-off. 

[howiveaddict]

9 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't see it that way.  All I saw was nobody can hurt you like family, nobody will resent you like family, and that's especially true between mothers and daughters sometimes.  I know I am in the minority here but I don't see Joan as a wicked witch who hurt her parents on purpose (sometimes as a young person you have to have distance from family while you are finding yourself and working through things) and who ruined Morse's life - he is an adult, whatever troubles he is having - a lot of it is his family history and the job, and him being a thwarted romantic who has slowly turned into a cynic.

For all the trouble the Thursdays are having - there clearly is love between them.  I am confused about Sam, have we ever met Sam? Did I forget something? Why should I care about Sam all of a sudden?

Not a favorite episode of mine. For one thing there was a harlequin in it. I hate clowns, mimes and harlequins. They all give me the heebie jeevies.

Was this season filmed during the pandemic? It has felt limited in scope and this last episode especially has felt like a bottle episode.

Joan's behavior was typical of women in the 60s, rebelling and choosing a different path than their parents. It does not make her a bad person.   Also I would choose a different path too with a mother like Win.

l too dislike clowns.

They showed a clip about filming in covid  after the episode.  Among other clips. Wonder what part of the episode was left out for that?

[sempervivum]

I kept thinking this was all some alcoholic dream Morse was having, particularly when the doctor looked almost identical to Joan (right?). I guess we're supposed to hand-wave away the fact that an abandoned hotel would still, after 8 YEARS, be dust and spiderweb-free, full of fancy furniture and knick-knacks, and still be fully stocked with expensive liquor. Absurd.

I'm in the Anti-Win group, and have never understood why poor old Fred didn't save himself and leave her.

[Suzn]

I certainly agree that this last episode is a mess.   I've watched it early  three times and the plot loses me.  I wish someone could give a plot summary that would help me make sense of it.  Among the things I don't understand is how any of it could have been planned for them  to wind up sheltering from the storm in the old hotel and who all was part of the plan and who was a random bystander.

Win is a hard mean woman.  It makes no sense that she blames Fred for whatever has happened to Sam.  I don't know what she expects him to do about it either.  He said that the military did not want him to go there and get in the way.

Joan seems kind on the surface but that she essentially ran away and did not even keep in touch with her parents was cruel.  There was no excuse for her to worry them that way.  I think she has treated Morse badly - sort of teasing him and then rejecting him.

[SusieQ]

Wasn't crazy about the first two episodes but this last episode was a total mess.

So the go go boot girl and the bus driver set it up  (with the girl's grandmother on the bus, too) so that the three thieves would be on the bus and it would get stuck in the snow (thanks to the driver). Too many loop holes, all of it.

And why would the creep at the mental hospital talk to fred??

Re Winn, she better have a brain tumor to explain this 180 degree turn in character. Even when she was angry about the money (and she was 100% right about that) she never acted out with such cruelty. Why are they destroying her character??

Just so disappointing.

[tootsie]

Yes, sempervivum, ita, the doctor was a twin to Joan and I, too, thought the whole show would end up being an alcoholic delusion.  I will, however, draw a line between the awful plot (I'm going to have to watch the whole episode again because I have no idea what that business with Fred and the prison or mental hospital visit was all about. Did I doze off?) and the actors themselves. I was surprised by Win's pathological and unreasonable venom, but the actor made me believe it, as baffling as it was. My man Bright was basically stuck with platitudes this episode, but I thought Joan's indecision and eventual scene with Strange were well done. And Fred Thursday, fearing his son was dead or had gone awol (such shame would be death-like for Fred, I think) had a hundred emotions cross his face, one right after another. Just grand.  I also thought Strange was a tender comforter for Joan. I do wonder, however, how the actors reacted to their first read through of the episode.

Btw, I seem to recall a whole episode that took place on the military base where Sam was serving, something to do with models in mini-skirts. Sam was prominent for a season or two, then seemed to vanish.

I must add, with complete lack of modesty, that I picked up immediately on the clue in the newspaper pic Endeavour found in first victim's flat that showed the "starry-eyed" prize winner. But clue to what exactly I'm still not sure. The whole slashed eyes thing was another plot device that escaped me. I thought I was paying attention. Apparently not. 

Note to Russell Lewis: Please don't do that again. 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Suzn said:

Joan seems kind on the surface but that she essentially ran away and did not even keep in touch with her parents was cruel.  There was no excuse for her to worry them that way.  I think she has treated Morse badly - sort of teasing him and then rejecting him.

2 hours ago, howiveaddict said:

Joan's behavior was typical of women in the 60s, rebelling and choosing a different path than their parents. It does not make her a bad person.   Also I would choose a different path too with a mother like Win.

I agree with both of these statements.  Joan's past behavior, letting her parents worry while shacking up with a married man was definitely wrong, but she was very young had just embarrassed herself and her family by getting mixed up with a gang of hoods and was pretending to herself none of it existed while living a new life far away from it all.  Part of her problem with Morse was he knew about all her shameful, embarrassing stuff.

Now she's matured, come home, faced her mistakes, and made a sincere effort to change and be a better person.  What does her mother do? Belittles her for it.

I don't feel like the show made us believe Winn was a great person and then pulled the rug out from under us.  When was she ever not a sour faced nag?  While Joan was missing she seemed to blame Thursday for it.  After he lost the money she was vicious about it, turning away from all his small efforts to make up for it, deliberately letting him think she was seeing another man, and while she didn't actually do that she was out dancing with other men at their club -- something special the two of them had shared together.

Not only did she say unforgivable things to Joan and Fred last night, it just occurred to me she was willing to let Morse get killed.  Someone who had always been so kind to her.

Edited July 4, 2022 by JudyObscure

[kassygreene]

Every now and then in the fandom of an historical show I find myself compelled to type "historical context" (even though I know it is generally useless).

The Thursdays when we first met them were the British version of an American baby boomer family - war was over, they survived, they had kiddies, Fred's move to Oxford made his career somewhat safer, and they had a house and a good retirement program in the works.

Then, tragedy -- the Sixties.

Joan had a starter job at a bank: nice boss, nice boyfriend, and suddenly the bank is robbed, the boss is killed, and the boyfriend had been pumping her for inside information so his gang could rob the place.  She felt used, stupid, and guilty, and not having grown up in an era of true crime novels, tv, and podcasts, she was as easily duped as the next person.  In fact, it was customary in such case to blame her as a fool, or an accomplice playing the poor pitiful me card.  So, having followed all the rules that society said were the milestones of a good llife, she ran away and broke more rules.

Sam finished school and joined the army, a young man's milestsone.  All right and well enough, but post-war British Army meant Northern Ireland.  If you are old enough to remember, the British in NI were as welcome as the US in Vietnam.   Fred worrying about Sam and Win living for the weekly letter takes me back to the year my uncle was deployed in Vietnam.  He was Air Force, he was an HQ REMF, he worked and lived in the middle of a huge base, and my grandfather spent every waking moment glued to the news and waiting for a knock at the door (Uncle came home just fine, and went on to be Career).

Fred believed his brother's latest grift, even though it was stupid.  And it was still apparently a guy thing that The Man made all the money decisions all by himself (that one I've never understood, as it's the smartest one in our family who does that, including my mother and both grandmothers).  He put their old age to absurd risk and he's lucky she didn't make sandwiches with rancid food.

And as for Win, she followed all the rules and the societal guarantees didn't happen.  Win is an example of someone who can be good and kind and even long-suffering, but doesn't have the internal fortitude to Keep Buggering On - that was all supposed to end with the war, or at least with rationing.

Sam will make it or not, be scarred or not, we will probably get no more of a hint then they can squeeze into the final season.  Joan has worked her way into her future; her experience as a useful idiot to an unscupulous man and as chattel to a rich jackass have prepared her to help women and families in crisis - if nothing else it has given her an unsentimental attitude toward drunks - and I really loved her with Strange.  Strange is actively living his life and life choices, and will indeed by CS someday.  Fred and Win will probably survive into retirement, but it wo't be the happy dancing they were planning.

And that's the Thursdays.  I never expected Endeavour to have a happy ending, as Morse pretty much established that.

Bright is my favorite though.  With the unending sad life events, which he persistently responds to with Grace, and his unfailing decency, I so 💖 him.  He was a hardass at the beginning, but his response to Morse's father's dying put him firmly on the list of people I wish were my boss.  His response to the collapsed building was immediate and perfect.  And now he's living out the rest of his career with serenity, running interference with upstairs, checking the pulse of his cops, including Morse and Thursday - dammit, why was he never my boss?

Sorry/not sorry for the length, but I guess this is my farewell ode to the series (even though I WILL be watching series 9).

Edited July 4, 2022 by kassygreene

[SnapHappy]

4 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Northern Ireland, during the Troubles.

Thanks, I was pretty sure it wasn't in England.  Win referred to him being "over there" and that Fred should go "over there".  

[howiveaddict]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree with both of these statements.  Joan's past behavior, letting her parents worry while shacking up with a married man was definitely wrong, but she was very young had just embarrassed herself and her family by getting mixed up with a gang of hoods and was pretending to herself none of it existed while living a new life far away from it all.  Part of her problem with Morse was he knew about all her shameful, embarrassing stuff.

Now she's matured, come home, faced her mistakes, and made a sincere effort to change and be a better person.  What does her mother do? Belittles her for it.

I don't feel like the show made us believe Winn was a great person and then pulled the rug out from under us.  When was she ever not a sour faced nag?  While Joan was missing she seemed to blame Thursday for it.  After he lost the money she was vicious about it, turning away from all his small efforts to make up for it, deliberately letting him think she was seeing another man, and while she didn't actually do that she was out dancing with other men at their club -- something special the two of them had shared together.

Not only did she say unforgivable things to Joan and Fred last night, it just occurred to me she was willing to let Morse get killed.  Someone who had always been so kind to her.

I wonder if part of Win's behavior could be due to her goimg through menopause?  Sometimes you reach a point that you have no fs to give and vocalize it.

[Rickster]

38 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

Sam finished school and joined the army, a young man's milestsone.  All right and well enough, but post-war British Army meant Northern Ireland.  If you are old enough to remember, the British in NI were as welcome as the US in Vietnam.   Fred worrying about Sam and Win living for the weekly letter takes me back to the year my uncle was deployed in Vietnam.  He was Air Force, he was an HQ REMF, he worked and lived in the middle of a huge base, and my grandfather spent every waking moment glued to the news and waiting for a knock at the door (Uncle came home just fine, and went on to be Career).

One minor correction….”The Troubles”, which resulted in the major army deployment to Northern Ireland, only began in the late 60’s. Post-war deployments up to the 60’s were more likely to have been trying to maintain colonial rule in various territories in Africa and Asia, or supporting post colonial governments against communist rebels.

[statsgirl]

I had my reply all thought out but @kassygreene pretty much said it for me.

The Brights Thursdays remind me very much of my in-laws, married in the 40s durng the war. He worked all day and then he would come home, put on his headphones and listen to his records. The only time he was involved with the kids was when the report cards came if they needed discipline. He controlled the finances 100% and they never talked about big things like that. I would have left him but my mother-in-law considered him the love of her life. When he died, she had to find a job with 2 kids and a grade 10 education.

Maybe Win, like my MIL, had wanted to go on to higher education like Joan but she was a product of her time. Her whole world was her children and her house and everything else was left to Fred. She must be out of her mind right now with her son missing and quite possibly killed by the IRA but there is nothing that she can do. Even the phone call about him missing was for Fred, not her. Fred can escape to his work and helping Morse but Win is trapped at home waiting and praying.

Win blowing up at both Joan and Fred may have been a function of her desperation and hollowness inside.

I didn't hate the case, although too much of Murder On The Orient Express. The grandmother, sister and bus driver (formerly prison orderly) wanted revenge on the four people who caused the young man to be imprisoned and later commit suicide.  I have no sympathy for the bad guys.

Bright as well as Thursday being concerned for Morse was a nice touch considering how Bright felt about him at the beginning.

[Zella]

26 minutes ago, Rickster said:

One minor correction….”The Troubles”, which resulted in the major army deployment to Northern Ireland, only began in the late 60’s. Post-war deployments up to the 60’s were more likely to have been trying to maintain colonial rule in various territories in Africa and Asia, or supporting post colonial governments against communist rebels.

Yes I believe it was summer 1969 that the first British soldiers arrived in response to the violence. I think there were soldiers already stationed there, but it wasn't considered a deployment into an active conflict before then.

I just watched Belfast, which is Kenneth Branagh's movie about the time period. He was a child in Belfast at the time, and if I'm not mistaken, he has said his family left as it started to get more violent. The arrival of the British army is a plot point.  

[tootsie]

For what this is worth: I found watching the episode again, able to stop the streaming when I needed to study what was on the screen or replay a section so I could catch all the spoken words, was VERY helpful. There were still inconsistencies (the man Creech telling Fred everything he wanted to know just like that ["please"], the weather being terrible for getting around unless it wasn't, and the good condition of the hotel after 8 vacant years come to mind) but a second viewing improved my opinion of Terminus. It may never be a favorite, but I now look forward with a sort of sad anticipation to the show's final season. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by tootsie
Added info

[Daff]

This episode was panned tremendously (not just here). I, too, agree with everything @kassiegreene said (couldn’t have summed it up better). This episode was extremely “involved”, but I see where the writers wanted to link Morse’s history with traditional “mystery” genre. Ignoring the clichés, along with the surprise explanations, the end result was quite as expected, character wise, and revealed the true HUMAN motivations behind our heroes/heroines actions (we know, they’re flawed and somewhat damaged, as are we all). Everyone was fairly well-revealed this episode.  My favorite moment was Morse’s reveal that the job (getting it right) IS the only impetus to his continued sobriety (and that moment informs the original series). It’s as if they didn’t know they’d get another season, so I can’t imagine what more they can give us. I will watch the last season, and I’m grateful for the entire series. 

[deirdra]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes I believe it was summer 1969 that the first British soldiers arrived in response to the violence. I think there were soldiers already stationed there, but it wasn't considered a deployment into an active conflict before then.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that Fred helped Sam get a non-combat first job in the army since Win was worried he'd be killed. So that may be when Sam joined up, before the dangerous Troubles began.  So that made it all Fred's fault in Win's mind.

Edited July 5, 2022 by deirdra

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, deirdra said:

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that Fred helped Sam get a non-combat job in the army since Win was worried he'd be killed. So that may be when Sam joined up, before the dangerous Troubles began.  So that made it all Fred's fault in Win's mind.

I think you're right. I just double-checked, and what I found online is Sam joins the army at the end of season 3. That sounds right to me. And season 3 was set in 1967, so it seems like he would have been in the army a few years by the time this season rolls around and would not have had the Troubles as a factor when he enlisted. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Zella

[ML89]

That doctor was something else - yes, please send the guy with the head wound to go lie down - I was expecting the whole time for her to be the bad guy. Would have made more sense than that plot, down to the hotel in great shape having been shut down without even a salvage sale, with a generator, with gas.

I knew something had to happen to Sam - we’d heard nothing about him and then he was mentioned every ep.

Morse looking so old by the time Morse starts - maybe we’ll find out he did a few years on Tatooine.

The plot was even more convoluted than the usual Morse/Endeavour ep. I did have to laugh and sadly remember the 70s with all the women in skirts while the guys were complaining about the cold in their pants and overcoats. And what was with Strange and Thursday so upset about the bungy clock or whatever? 

If Morse goes to dry out, he certainly gets right off the wagon again.

So once Endeavour ends, do we get “Robbie”? Or at least do we get a flash forward to tie it all to the Mothership?

[LennieBriscoe]

Episode 3: Whoa, did not like Winnie here!

But the plot? "And Then There Were None" with the Witches from "Macbeth"? Weak sauce. 

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, ML89 said:

That doctor was something else - yes, please send the guy with the head wound to go lie down - I was expecting the whole time for her to be the bad guy.

She was so random! Including when Fred had to prompt her upon meeting about whether she'd seen Morse... like, Morse literally sent her to get help, and she couldn't lead with that when she runs into a cop?

And the house scenes were so dimly lit (and apparently I didn't pay close enough attention to the opening credits) that I didn't realize the doctor was Nurse Val from Call the Midwife until the end credits.

Overall I'm still processing this last episode, but I think I liked this season better than last season (a low bar, for sure, but still...). I found all three episodes engaging, even if they had their weaknesses. And I fell a bit in love with Strange, which I wasn't expecting!

Quote

So once Endeavour ends, do we get “Robbie”? 

I'm half expecting a young Fred Thursday prequel... I'd watch!

Edited July 5, 2022 by dargosmydaddy

[cinsays]

Hated this episode, actually pretty much this whole season.

I found it hard to follow and boring and kept falling asleep, so had to put it aside for a while to watch later, which i never needed to do before this season.

Agreed with others that Thursday sitting home with his wife wringing his hands because his son was unaccounted for would have been out of character, he just could not do that.  The man needed to be doing something to distract him and feel useful. 

And, why did they all just stay in the creepy mansion? Yeah, if this was all a planned event by the villainous crew, they wouldn't want to do that.  But Morse?

At one point near the end, someone -  probably Morse, can't be bothered to go back and check -  told one of the women to run to a home nearby. If there was someplace close enough to send someone in the gusting wind and snow, why didn't someone do that early on? 

I hope next season is better.  Very disappointed.

[M. Darcy]

Very weird episode for the famous 33 one - I'm hoping that they knew when they made it that there was going to be another season.  Especially since he hasn't bought The Car yet (I still think that's going to be the final scene of the series). 

Another Terry Pratchett shout out - Nobbs!  And, apparently, one of the names on the guest list was Colin Dexter. 

[Suzn]

Some excellent analysis of Win and Joan has been posted here and tying them to the societal norms of the time make a lot of sense.  But people are individuals that go beyond the behaviors and reactions of their era. 

Win seems like someone who always had simmering resentments and frustrations.  In her very rigid way, she could be loving and care-taking of her family, but the feelings on simmer were underlying her behavior at all times.  We don't know her family background for source but she seems to be someone who needs control and for everything to be "just so".

Joan takes some characteristics from her mother and some is an over-reaction against her.  She has rebelled in some ways that are of the era, but the disappearing and not communicating with her family was not only cruel but a huge over-reaction.  She does seem to be over that phase, but there is still something cruel in her, in particular in how she treats Morse.

[buttersister]

I saw Win acting out her deep disappointment with life and her family. Fred is always focused on work, but by this point they could have been in a comfortable retirement. Joan was very cruel to her—Win couldn’t imagine she deserved that. Her son could be dead. In the 70s, women’s roles were changing, expanding beyond Win’s. Nothing is going the way she imagined/planned it would.

[LennieBriscoe]

2 hours ago, Alistaire said:

Dunno. Good question. This is going to be heavy and emphatically isn't intended toward you, my friend. But even if Win's not having fs left to give was the case--

Do.Not.Change.Genres.in.the.Final.Episode. "Endeavour" was until Sunday night (for U.S. viewers) a thriller-with-a-heart . We didn't see Fancy being killed. That heartbreak occurred off-screen. We didn't see Joan beaten by her lover or having an abortion. The closest the series ever got to social realism was Caroline's murder (and it was brutal and very disturbing). But it too occurred off-screen. Honestly? Win's psychosis reminded me in terms of morally questionable shock value of Lady Sybill's death in childbirth on "Downton Abbey." To *show* Lady Sybill leave the series in a way so gruesome... and then, "Did I Make the Most of Loving You?" sign us off...

We each have a definition of misogyny. Sybill could have died off-screen (like Matthew Crawley), and the impact would have been as great. Win could have thrown a knife at Fred and boxed Joan's ears, and the impact would have been as great. Instead, the entire series changes genres. A decade's worth of (female, again) artistic work is put in the hopper.

Funny, how most people think morality doesn't exist in fiction. To change genres at the twenty-fifth hour is either 1) writers' laziness; 2) indifference; or 3) lack of ideas (in which case, hire new writers). Genre-change ranks right up there with violence-quotient and female nudity for the sake of female nudity. It's immoral.

This series *really* meant something to me in my old age. Fire-and-brimstone available on request... like Win's.

" ...most people think morality doesn't  exist in fiction." I think most people know, even in the basic "good guys vs. bad guys" sense, that there is much morality, or at least a moral sense, in well-written fiction.* Even if a villain doesn't get his comeuppance (nor us therefore a proper catharsis), the reader acknowledges the wrongness on some level. 

(*Naturalism works and the Indifferent Universe might seem outside this definition, but relations between humans operate inside.)

After all the Gothic nonsense and gruesome murders, for the crimes to have revolved around mere money was a letdown.  

[statsgirl]

15 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

And the house scenes were so dimly lit (and apparently I didn't pay close enough attention to the opening credits) that I didn't realize the doctor was Nurse Val from Call the Midwife until the end credits.

I completely missed that! Definitely too dark. At one point when they were all introducing themselves, I wondered who that woman was until I remembered that she had introduced herself earlier on the bus.

5 hours ago, Suzn said:

Win seems like someone who always had simmering resentments and frustrations.  In her very rigid way, she could be loving and care-taking of her family, but the feelings on simmer were underlying her behavior at all times.  We don't know her family background for source but she seems to be someone who needs control and for everything to be "just so".

Joan takes some characteristics from her mother and some is an over-reaction against her. 

4 hours ago, buttersister said:

I saw Win acting out her deep disappointment with life and her family. Fred is always focused on work, but by this point they could have been in a comfortable retirement. Joan was very cruel to her—Win couldn’t imagine she deserved that. Her son could be dead. In the 70s, women’s roles were changing, expanding beyond Win’s. Nothing is going the way she imagined/planned it would.

Good points about the psychological foundations for Win's behaviour in this episode.  For all the frustrating things on the show, they do a good job of anchoring it in the time period (I hate it when shows like Bridgerton use 2020 sensibilities in a period show).

And now I'm going to go and see if I can dig out my old Hawkwind albums.

[magdalene]

I maintain the Win/Joan relationship is entirely familiar to me at least.  Mothers and daughters rubbing each other the wrong way is a common thing.  And quite frankly if I had gotten into trouble like Joan did would I want to come to Win for comfort and support? The way that woman holds a grudge with a cruel streak a mile long? Maybe not.  I would have gone to Fred though.  Al least I hope I would. 

Somebody up-thread said something about the Morse/Joan relationship that struck me as very true -  something like she had to cut him off because he saw her at her weakest. Now she is more mature and has her life more together and Strange is getting the benefit of that. And he treats her with such respect which is very attractive. I won't be surprised if she marries him in the last season.

[12catcrazy]

I love this forum as you folks are really  able to hit the nail on the head with your comments.  

If this had been a run-of-the mill crime show rather than "Endeavour", I would have been ok with this final episode as over the top ridiculous as it was.   It made me think of a movie I saw a few nights ago on TCM - "Murder By Death" ( for those of  you who haven't seen it,  it's a comedic spoof of 1930s/40s murder mysteries).  

I think the aspect of this episode which disappointed me the most was the character assassination of Winn.   We've seen her near catatonically depressed when Joan had left the family home with no communication, and we've seen her angry and upset when Thursday lost his retirement money, but we've never seen her as such a nasty, mean bitch.   Frankly, it was rather shocking and I give the actress props for being really able to sell it, but it seemed so out of left field.    Characters change and hopefully "grow" but as in real life, people become broken.   We've been watching the young, hopeful, Endeavour turn into a heartbroken, cynical, alcoholic.   But we've also seen Joan start to come into her own.   But Winn - ...  she acts like somebody who has been hitting the bottle and hitting it hard.   All I can think is that the writer is setting us up for something really bad next season, but why does it also feel as if  he's also giving the show's fans a Bronx cheer?  Now I REALLY wish that they would have ended it with Season 6.  Sigh.   

[ML89]

16 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

And the house scenes were so dimly lit (and apparently I didn't pay close enough attention to the opening credits) that I didn't realize the doctor was Nurse Val from Call the Midwife until the end credits.

I never did realize! She did strike me as vaguely familiar, now that explains why...

[Dessert]

2 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

I think the aspect of this episode which disappointed me the most was the character assassination of Winn.   We've seen her near catatonically depressed when Joan had left the family home with no communication, and we've seen her angry and upset when Thursday lost his retirement money, but we've never seen her as such a nasty, mean bitch.   Frankly, it was rather shocking and I give the actress props for being really able to sell it, but it seemed so out of left field.   

I don’t think it’s character assassination at all. It’s an extreme example of behavior that she has displayed throughout the series and completely in character.

Win is complex with some wonderful qualities, but when something goes wrong, she tends to strike out in a nasty way. She also holds bitter grudges. In this episode, when Fred told Joan that Win is quick to anger, but quick to forgive, I thought “this man doesn’t even know his wife”.

When Joan left, Win blamed Fred and Morse, of all people, for not finding her. She did nothing to try to find Joan herself. Surely she she knows some of Joan’s friends. She could have enlisted their or Sam’s help.

When Fred lost their retirement money - lending it to his brother without even asking her - she was rightly furious. I wouldn’t have blamed her if she divorced him. Instead she chose to react with at least a year of cold, bitter nastiness. In fairness to the writing, this is probably not an unrealistic depiction, but very ugly.

Of course, she’s terrified because Sam is missing, but attacking Joan and blaming Fred was horrible. No wonder he wanted to stay at the office. Fred said, in Fugue, that his family is what kept him moored. I think he’s losing his family. Maybe Morse’s music is a more dependable anchor. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dessert
Added a word

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, Dessert said:

I don’t think it’s character assassination at all. It’s an extreme example of behavior that she has displayed throughout the series and completely in character.

Win is complex with some wonderful qualities, but when something goes wrong, she tends to strike out in a nasty way. She also holds bitter grudges. In this episode, when Fred told Joan that Win is quick to anger, but quick to forgive, I thought “this man doesn’t even know his wife”.

I don't think it's character assassination either.  To me it has all the earmarks of something that set off a lifetime of bitter resentment and anger.  Sure she's expressed some of it before but that was nothing compared to the volcano she's held in for years.  Life has not been what Win wanted, expected and thought she had earned.

[racked]

I can see why some thought this episode was a mess, but I loved it. Yes it was wild and unlikely but I enjoyed Morse in it more than I did the previous two. And the group gathering together in the hotel wasn’t a coincidence - it was very much planned. They had all been invited on the same night, which is why the driver had to be in on it. He skidded the bus off the road. That was the only part that was so beyond reason - that he cared so much for a patient he would commit many murders. 

I don’t hate Win or Joan. Yes Win was exceedingly cruel in this episode but it was her breaking point. She wasn’t being rational and she wasn’t meant to be. She was trying to hurt others as much as she hurt. Deep down she probably blames herself for whatever happened or happens to Sam. And I found the Joan/Strange scene touching. We’ve always known this show ends with Morse alone and unlucky in love. It’s sad to see that he and Joan never even get a chance but also fascinating to see how he got there. 

[Driad]

The latest episode "Terminus" -- of the people stranded in the hotel, was everyone involved in the scheme except Morse and the black woman?

[statsgirl]

12 minutes ago, Driad said:

The latest episode "Terminus" -- of the people stranded in the hotel, was everyone involved in the scheme except Morse and the black woman?

I don't think that the conductor was. Nor Nurse Dyer and the student with good taste in music.

[Daff]

8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I don't think that the conductor was. Nor Nurse Dyer and the student with good taste in music.

Yeah, that was a surprise. Given his early, lecherous comments to and about the female passenger, he was bound to turn out to be a bad guy!

[cardigirl]

I guess I am in the minority, because I thought this was a better episode than the previous two. I enjoy this series, and looked forward to it returning. For me, the country house murder mystery is such a classic trope, and of course, done during a blizzard so the characters are even more isolated, that I really settled in and enjoyed the watch. 

Don't care if Win didn't behave as most here thought she should. When your child is missing and you're not sure what happened, it will change you. Families often say the cruelest, most cutting things to each other and it is born out of fear.  The fear of the worst possible outcome, the fear that you may actually be at fault or failed your child, the fear of someone not being who you thought they were.  All of that was probably driving her speeches to Fred and Joan. The fact that she was so fiery proved to me how much she loves her family and is terrorized by the thought of losing them all. Indifference would be more scary. 

Heck, I think fear drives Endeavour too. Fear of being hurt even more than he already had been. Bright has had his worst fears realized, and he's able to continue on. He cares about his men. He cares about his job. Fred Thursday also has his fears, but seems better at not lashing out (at least this season). 

I enjoyed Inspector Morse when in originally aired (oops, just gave a clue to my age) but find it hard watching sometimes these days. I also enjoyed Lewis but mostly because of Kevin Whately's performance. I'm looking forward to the final season of Endeavour and will be sad to say goodbye to such wonderful characters. 

I do have one complaint about this series and I've said it before. I cannot stand that they created a role for John Thaw's daughter as Abigail Frazil, reporter extraordinaire. I roll my eyes at her every time she pops up on the screen. UGH. She is so artificially put into the stories. Save her screen time for someone else in the show. 

[Dowel Jones]

On 7/4/2022 at 2:49 PM, tootsie said:

There were still inconsistencies (the man Creech telling Fred everything he wanted to know just like that ["please"], the weather being terrible for getting around unless it wasn't, and the good condition of the hotel after 8 vacant years come to mind)...

Not to mention a reasonably well stocked bar and cellar.  That would have  migrated out the back door before the keys were turned in the front door.  Or maybe it's just that I live in the US.

[statsgirl]

Creech telling Fred everything makes sense. People like that (psychopaths narcissists) love to boast about what they have done and there is no one in the prison to boast to any more. Also he took the young man under his wing, so to speak, and he would be anxious to show Fred how he had been done wrong.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, statsgirl said:

Creech telling Fred everything makes sense. People like that (psychopaths narcissists) love to boast about what they have done and there is no one in the prison to boast to any more. Also he took the young man under his wing, so to speak, and he would be anxious to show Fred how he had been done wrong.

Yes, but so convenient that Fred got there in a blizzard and had time to extract the information and then rush back.  Huh?

[elle]

On 7/4/2022 at 2:06 PM, statsgirl said:

The Brights remind me very much of my in-laws,

Did you mean the Thursdays?

Edited July 16, 2022 by elle

[wanderingstar]

Just started watching this show with the latest series. Pleasantly surprised at how much I'm enjoying it. I thought it might be a bit too gritty for my cozy mystery-loving self, but Endeavour is an appealing lead, even if he is messy af-lol

Also, I like Roger Allam much more in this than in Murder in Provence.

[statsgirl]

22 hours ago, elle said:

Did you mean the Thursdays?

Yes. 🤦‍♀️

Thanks  for the correction.

[LennieBriscoe]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:41 PM, Alistaire said:

Zella (and also Lennie Briscoe, despite the fact that he/she never seems to "heart" anyone's comments :) -- You are both right. I did say my reason for watching "Endeavour" is, was, and will until the end be Roger Allam, with whom I am in hopeless tv-love. (Parakeets.) 🦜🦜

"DeGuello" (season 6 finale) will go down as my all-time greatest, never-to-be-outdone, over-the-top brilliant, theatrical film that just happened to be on PBS' Mystery. I can rewatch it and know the ending and have my heart pound each time. And Morse has precious little to do with anything except the figuring out of the bad guys. 

Yes, Morse is unlikable. That's why Season 7 left me cold. I couldn't have cared less about him and Violetta and Snidely Whiplash (Ludo). What stuck in my craw--my craw, I tell you :)-- was how Thursday and Morse went at each other for reasons not really having to do with either Violetta (whom Fred never met) or Morse's Italian sojourns. Fred was hateful to him over the fact that Morse got it right from the start, i.e., that Fred slipped on the initial hunch.

OF COURSE, Fred did NOT slip up. But that irony, I humbly suggest, is the writers' deux-ex-machina. There was every reason in the world for Morse (Jim, Bright, etc.) to believe Fred was just getting pissy to Morse for reasons of vague, strange envy, all the more inexplicable because of how brilliantly and lovingly "DeGuello" ended. There never was an explanation for Fred's sudden choler toward the young tosser. 😄

I have ❤ed and 😄ed a zillion posts all over this website. I don't know what you've used to check.