Endeavour - General Discussion

[racked]

I’m happy to keep season 9 under a spoiler. The only non spoiler things I will say is both episodes have been great and feel very early Endeavour to me. 
 

Spoiler

Who was the man who turned up at Morse’s house at the end? 

I need to go back and watch Neverland because I barely remembered all the important details to Blenham Vale. But I so loved Bright this episode! 

Joan being wishy washy about marrying Strange is probably in character but makes me sad for Strange more than anyone. Morse’s excitement when she called was a little heartbreaking but that’s mainly due to Shaun Evans.
 

These last episodes are so bittersweet! I think I worry most about Sam, who I could see not making it. 

 

 

 

 

[JudyObscure]

Please don't feel you need to put anything under spoiler tags.  No one suggested that.  I was the only person to complain at all and the only thing I ever asked for was some sort of demarcation between seasons.  Like the words, "Season --" at the beginning of a new one.

[alias1]

3 hours ago, racked said:

I’m happy to keep season 9 under a spoiler. The only non spoiler things I will say is both episodes have been great and feel very early Endeavour to me. 
 

  Reveal spoiler

Who was the man who turned up at Morse’s house at the end? 

I need to go back and watch Neverland because I barely remembered all the important details to Blenham Vale. But I so loved Bright this episode! 

Joan being wishy washy about marrying Strange is probably in character but makes me sad for Strange more than anyone. Morse’s excitement when she called was a little heartbreaking but that’s mainly due to Shaun Evans.
 

These last episodes are so bittersweet! I think I worry most about Sam, who I could see not making it. 

 

 

 

I know you didn't have to do that but I for one appreciate it.  I can't wait to see the final season here in the US.  And I'm not suggesting that everyone has to do it.  I should just stay out of here until we get the episodes.  I know it's on me. 

 

[Popples]

If any more chickens came home to roost, I could open a feather duster store. They really put a lot of effort into trying to pay off some old storylines. Even though It was pretty obvious what Thursday's final words to Morse would be, that final scene between them completely wrecked me. While it sucks that all the loose ends weren't tied up (as someone once said, "not every question gets an answer"), it was a very satisfying ending. Roger and Shaun completely knocked it out of the park.

There was one bit that I didn't enjoy, although quite a few on Twitter did. I understand why it was there, I just would have enjoyed it better if it had been edited out. 

I'll miss this show so much.

[Lois Sandborne]

Hands down this was the most beautiful episode ever. Kudos to Kate Saxon; some of the shots actually took my breath away.

As requested by the mod, I'll put the rest of my thoughts under a spoiler code:
 

Spoiler

It took me some time to digest this one, naturally, being the last ever episode and so full of questions to answer. I think they bit of a tad bit more than they could chew, and. I think they could've dispensed with the case of the week or dwelled much less on it, but ultimately, I loved this ending and it made me cry.

Specifically, poor Mr. Bright reciting The Tempest at his daughter's grave, made me cry. And Morse looking on as Joan and Jim walked off into their happy future while "Rocket Man" played made me cry. And then, Morse confronting Thursday with his faults, telling him he knew that Thursday had stabbed the biker who attacked Sam, but still giving him the grace of not letting Thursday know that was Big Pete all along ... I cried buckets. Morse and Thursday have been the heart of this show, and this bitter ending, with them acknowleding everything Fred has given Morse over the years but also acknowledging that it really wasn't what Morse needed, was heartbreaking and so beautiful. Sometimes the people who train us up can only take us so far. Thursday had the raising of Endeavour, but it's DI McNutt who will do the molding of him into Inspector Morse. Oh no, there I go again.

Meanwhile I also loved all the fan service. I wish Jakes had gotten more to do, or at least gotten to tell us he was happy in the US, but it was wonderful to see him again.

Everyone was perfect at the wedding, especially Dr. DeBryn and Miss Frazil hoping that they missed the bouquet toss. Solidarity, besties.

I was sad that they added tragic shades to Robbie's backstory with the Brenda and Andrew Lewis thing, but perhaps that's what motivated him to become a copper.

The choir performing Faure's Requiem was gorgeous, and again, beautifully filmed. Of course I also loved the Jaguar callback with the eyes in the mirror. Well done again.

It was a lovely, mostly satisfying finale. They're going to have to say something about that gunshot in the graveyard though. I mean, they're just going to have to explain that one.

 

[Popples]

2 hours ago, Lois Sandborne said:

Spoiler

It was a lovely, mostly satisfying finale. They're going to have to say something about that gunshot in the graveyard though. I mean, they're just going to have to explain that one

 

What Kate Saxon had to say:
 

Spoiler

 

 

[statsgirl]

The attempt to put episode discussion under spoiler bars for US viewers has caused confusion so I'm going to go back to the original rules for the thread: anything that has been shown in the UK or other places is open for discussion, and those who don't want to be spoiled shouldn't look till Endeavour is aired in your area.

[racked]

My goodness that was beautiful. I’m so sad to see this gorgeous show go. It’s up there with Foyles War for me, there won’t be anything quite like this ever again. 

[Lois Sandborne]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:24 PM, Popples said:

What Kate Saxon had to say:

That is insane, lol. I love it. Always leave them wanting more. I'm going to miss this show so much!

My local PBS has started running episodes of Inspector Morse. I haven't seen any of it in a while and it's so weird to watch now. It became clear at some point during the run of this show that they weren't working toward a neat hand-off between the Endeavour universe and that one, but I'm still surprised by how hard it is to reconcile the two. Young Morse and ... let's say Seasoned Morse are very different personages to me for now.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Valid point, I had to accept the fact that after  15 to 20 years of drinking, dealing with day in day out   dregs of society, can change someone.  Good reason for a new Morse series filling in those years. 

[Popples]

Finally, a PBS airdate.

 

[Popples]

I don't know why PBS would air the documentary before the show since it will spoil it, so I second the advice in the tweet.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm avoiding reading all this now.  I'll wait for the US airing.  I just wanted to post that you all would love seeing an unrecognizable Roger Allam playing Robert Maxwell in the new movie Tetris on Apple Plus.  We don't have a "cast in other roles" thread. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Is Season 9 coming soon to PBS? 

[chitowngirl]

28 minutes ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Is Season 9 coming soon to PBS? 

Sunday night!

[Daff]

I jumped to the end to avoid any spoilers, but wanted to add that on Sunday, it will be 364 days since we (US) saw S8, E1 (seems like an eternity). I know this because I’m rewatching S8 to prep for Sunday and the DVR recording has the date on it. Interesting, though, since “Passport”,  many PBS recordings I’ve saved have disappeared from my DVR. Notably, (annoyingly) Call the Midwife and All Creatures Great and Small. This year, CtM episodes disappeared as soon as I watched them. 

[magdalene]

Tonight, folks! I am rather excited that it's back and sad that it is coming to its end.

[M. Darcy]

We are finally at the last season!  NYTimes Article on the final season. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by M. Darcy

[buttersister]

Oh my. It's true. Major mixed emotions--the high of having Show back and knowing this is it. 

Strange asking Morse to be his best man nearly drove me to drink, said the non-drinker. That's gotta leave a mark (knowing it does).

And just when I think Roger Allam can't get any better ... but yikes, they're leading us to think that a professional misconduct drives a wedge between Thursday and Morse, and I suppose that'd be bad enough, but not as bad as a stray thought that Morse finds out Thursday somehow derailed any interest Joan might have had in Morse. (I know, Morse did that himself pretty well.)

That article spoke of trouble imagining Shawn Evans morphing into John Thaw. Physicality aside, and remembering my resistance when I first heard there'd be a prequel to my beloved Morse series, I'd say they'd done it.

[Driad]

The orchestra and the curse of the ninth symphony had me thinking I had seen this before, until I realized I was remembering a Midsomer Murders episode.

Shouldn't Bright have more medals/ribbons than he does?

[magdalene]

I felt the gut punch when Endeavour learned that Strange would marry Joan.  And to have to be the best man, ouch!  Strange won't make her happy, but Morse wouldn't have made her happy either. There is unhappiness and then there is the unhappiness from having settled.  Well, Joan will have plenty of company in other women sharing her fate.

I was actually glad to learn that Ronny Box survived being shot and is making a life for himself as a private detective.

I have the sinking feeling the Thursday and Morse relationship is doomed. Why would Morse never mention Thursday years later?

As always I love Bright so much. I hope for a peaceful retirement for him.

Edited June 19, 2023 by magdalene

[Daff]

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

Strange won't make her happy,

I think they’ll be happy for the first 5, maybe 10 years if they’re lucky. Right now, he’s terribly attentive and caring toward her. My guess is that as Strange moves up the ranks, Joan will be reminded of her own mother’s loneliness due to the job. 

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

I felt the gut punch when Endeavour learned that Strange would marry Joan. 

I was shocked that he (detective?) had to ask Who? Just punctuates how blotto he must have been before finally relenting to the “time off.”

[dargosmydaddy]

Well, that was a terribly awkward episode all round. Really uncomfortable to watch, and rightfully so. Kudos to everyone for conveying it.

Strange was (strangely!) one of my favorite characters last year, but now he's dropped a bit... Morse is meant to be clueless when it comes to social cues, but I never thought Strange was. Not cool springing this news on him and than asking him to be best man.

As for the mystery, I thought it was easy enough to follow (not always a given on Endeavour) while also not being completely predictable... That said, I found it hard to believe that Margeaux could (or would want to) keep such a severe allergy a secret from these people that she associated so closely with/ regularly ate with. Like, if mere contact with nuts could kill you, wouldn't you maybe want people to be aware of that? Also, if she was having Mrs. T take her favorite biscuits out of the tin for her, presumably so that she didn't have to touch any nutty biscuits herself, wouldn't the biscuits she wanted possibly have come in contact with the nutty biscuits and been just as dangerous?

[JudyObscure]

The minute I saw Mabs walking down the street during the opening credits I said she'll be our murderer of the week.   They don't put big glasses on an ordinary looking girl unless they want us to remember her.

It's good to have them all back, but the sadness of Thursday's son being messed up and Endeavour's heart breaking in front of us was almost too much.

  I know Strange thinks Morse and Joan were just a quick passing thing, but I wouldn't think you'd want any sort of ex-boyfriend as best man.  Joan might have warned him, but Joan has always been coldly unconcerned about Endeavour's  feelings while, at the same time, been fully aware of them. If I had a red lipstick I'd write something on Joan's mirror.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by JudyObscure

[12catcrazy]

Were Morse and Joan ever really "a thing"?  I never saw it - what I remember was him being in love with her and she never seemed to feel it.  She was aware of his feelings, I think, but she didn't feel the same way.   I'd never say they were ever boyfriend/girlfriend and I don't recall ever broadcasting how he felt about her.   My take is that Strange really has no idea about Morse's feelings for Joan and Joan probably never brought it up to him.  

Frankly, (and this might be a minority opinion), I think that Joan would be a lot happier with Jim Strange (who actually seems to be a decent man) than she would be with Morse.    If every bit of unhappiness  and disappointment  is going to make him hit the bottle, then I think that Joan dodged a bullet.   And the look on Thursday's face at the end when he saw Morse in the bar said it all.  

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

  I know Strange thinks Morse and Joan were just a quick passing thing, but I wouldn't think you'd want any sort of ex-boyfriend as best man.  Joan might have warned him, but Joan has always been coldly unconcerned about Endeavour's  feelings while, at the same time, been fully aware of them. If I had a red lipstick I'd write something on Joan's mirror.

 

I have hated the way Joan has treated Endeavour.  Maybe she never cared for him that much and/or never wanted more of a relationship or thought it would be a mistake, but he never deserved her nasty behavior toward him. Yes, she deserves a red lipstick message on her mirror.

[tootsie]

Happy to see familiar posters' names again and be with people who understand the mixed feelings of this final season.  I must, as usual, rewatch ep 1 because somehow (did I doze off?) the shoe clue escaped me. Such lovely expressions last night. Win's joy with Sam. Joan and her ring. (Sometimes I almost like her) Fred's sad look at Endeavour in the pub. And oh, that dazed expression Endeavour wore after experiencing the wedding-news-blues! My guess is that Fred and Win will move with the promotion. (But I am persistently wrong so ignore me) And perhaps Ronnie will continue the Morse arc with his own p.i. show developed for PBS. I usually subtract points when the characters' relationships take precedence over the puzzle though not this season. But please show, the one thing I ask is that you give my man Bright a sendoff worthy of a Tiger King.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, 12catcrazy said:

Frankly, (and this might be a minority opinion), I think that Joan would be a lot happier with Jim Strange (who actually seems to be a decent man) than she would be with Morse.

I think she would be happier with Strange, too, but I think that's because she is self-centered and conventional. Joan is a taker and she would want a man who would give her everything she wanted without a fuss.  I agree that Strange is a sweet man and I feel sorry for him.

Joan probably did not  tell Strange anything about her relationship with Morse, she is very secretive, after all, when she ran away from home, she didn't tell her mother where she was, even after Morse found her and let her know her mother was sick with worry.

She went to Morse after her married boyfriend beat her up, and Morse was with her in the hospital when she lost the baby she was carrying.  Morse asked her to marry him. So even if they never had a normal dating relationship she knows he cared deeply about her.

[Daff]

6 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Not cool springing this news on him and than asking him to be best man.

But Strange and Morse have a long-established relationship, which, evidently means more to Strange than to Morse. They’ve worked and even for a time, lived together. They’ve supported each other on the job. It obviously means more to Strange than to Morse. The whole scene really does predict the future relationship (as Strange, for the most part, was the only one in Inspector Morse’s corner).

[Daff]

7 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

wouldn't you maybe want people to be aware of that?

I believe it was to demonstrate just how controlling, manipulative (and untrusting of others) she was. As such, knowledge of her vulnerability would need to be hidden for self-protection. When someone referred to her as “just a little girl”, I thought, just a little sociopath! Morse seemed to know after his interview with “the madame”. He wasn’t buying her “survivor guilt” implication about the drowning. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Daff

[mjc570]

4 hours ago, tootsie said:

 But please show, the one thing I ask is that you give my man Bright a sendoff worthy of a Tiger King.

This a thousand times! I always remember that episode, and how wonderfully Anton Lessor (along with the great writing) humanized a character that so easily could have been such a martinet. 

[magdalene]

I can't remember - was it ever explained why Morse left uni?  He certainly had the brains to graduate.

This was one of those episodes to really make Morse feel bad.  He learns Joan is getting married.  His father figure is focused on the problems of his real son. That asshole orchestra conductor makes him feel crappy by belittling his "amateur"  singing.

I really disliked both the murder victim and her killer.  Not a fan of women writing nasty anonymous messages to other women.  It is so extra petty.  If you have something nasty to say to me say it to my face.

I can totally understand why Joan distanced herself from Morse.  I wouldn't want to be with a man who saw me at my weakest and unhappiest either. I never thought of Joan as a villain, flawed yes, but no villain.

The guy who plays Thursday's son looks so familiar to me.

[7-Zark-7]

7 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

Were Morse and Joan ever really "a thing"?  I never saw it - what I remember was him being in love with her and she never seemed to feel it.  She was aware of his feelings, I think, but she didn't feel the same way. 

I don't think either of them felt deeply for each other. Morse never seemed to have the passion for her that he had for, say, the woman who died in his arms in Season 7. I think he saw Joan as a safe choice. Someone he could turn to sometime, down the road, maybe.  I think Joan saw that Morse wasn't deeply interested in her and that his "Marry me" was more a cry for help than a profession of love. They both were interested in each other but never on the same page at the same time.

Although Strange is a better choice for a husband (he isn't terribly complicated and doesn't have a drinking problem), Joan seems much smarter than he is, and that could lead to the same level of boredom that her father showed when he was sitting at the table eating lunch with him. Strange is the opposite of the man who beat her (which is probably a large part of his appeal) but she should hold out for a good man who also can hold his liquor and her interest.

[Zella]

35 minutes ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

I don't think either of them felt deeply for each other.

I've not had a chance to the watch the newest season (or possibly even season 8--I can't remember), but my impression was always that Morse and Joan idealized each other in an unhealthy way precisely because it was unrealistic and never actually a thing.

It was therefore safer to have each other on a little pedestal since nothing would ever come of it. Morse was often nicer to Joan than he was his actual girlfriends, and I think Joan trusted him more than the men she actually dated. But I think he held her at a distance when she wanted more because he knows how cold and moody he is, and she held him at a distance when he wanted more because she's been so vulnerable with him and that horrified her. They'll always probably be each other's "might have been" in their heads, but I don't think that necessarily means it should have been. 

Personally, in the Joan-Morse-Strange triangle, I always have felt the most sorry for Strange. I can see Joan and Morse both resenting him a bit after a few years, but as much as I really like Shaun Evans as Morse, I think he'd be a lot to deal with day to day. So would Joan. I'd 10 to 1 rather deal with Strange as a spouse.

In any event, ultimately, I think the fact they both seemed permanently unavailable and unattainable to each other even early on due to her dad was a big part of the attraction for them. I don't know that they would have ever connected in the same way if they'd run into each other at a pub or a social event. And I think if they'd ever actually dated or had sex, it would have fizzled out quick because then it was no longer unattainable. It was then reality, and I think that bores both of them. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Zella

[dargosmydaddy]

2 hours ago, Daff said:

I believe it was to demonstrate just how controlling, manipulative (and untrusting of others) she was.

Yeah, I got that, but it just seems unlikely that she could keep such a severe allergy a secret. How frequently was she dashing from a room and injecting herself with adrenaline just so she could keep her sense of control, and how realistic would that scenario even be? (Seemed like her attack was pretty sudden during the concert, and if she's not mentioning it to anyone surely the chances of her accidentally ingesting something with trace amounts of nuts, or kissing someone who had recently eaten nuts, was a distinct possibility over the years and would cause a similarly terrible reaction?)

At the very least, if I was her, I think I would take a pass on those biscuits!

[7-Zark-7]

Endeavor: "I was mostly following in Hardy's footsteps."

Strange: "Oh were you? 'There's another fine mess, eh?'".

The looks on both Morse and Thursday's faces when they realized Strange was thinking of Laurel and Hardy was fantastic.

[SnapHappy]

When Thursday said to Morse "Mind how you go", you could tell he was afraid Morse was about to spiral back down again.  His face said it all. 

And there is a time for the mentor to step back & let the protegee go.  Now is the time for both of them.  

The thing I hate is that we know what eventually happens to Morse, but not to Thursday. I know Thursday & his family were created specifically for this prequel, but they'll be missed too. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by SnapHappy

[M. Darcy]

18 hours ago, magdalene said:

I can't remember - was it ever explained why Morse left uni?  He certainly had the brains to graduate.

I knew we had heard why before so I googled it.  According to Morse himself, John Thaw "Viewers may still wonder why Morse, with his educational and cultural background, became a policeman. Asked to explain that choice, Mr. Thaw said that Morse left Oxford before he got his degree because he was ''so upset and traumatized by a romance that didn't work out.'' From an old NYT article .  

[dgpolo]

6 minutes ago, M. Darcy said:

''so upset and traumatized by a romance that didn't work out.''

Would that be the one with Emilia Fox's mother, Joanna David?

[M. Darcy]

5 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Would that be the one with Emilia Fox's mother, Joanna David?

That's her!   According to the Morseuniverse before Endeavor (and my memories) she was the one that got away.   Heh, though she was one of many.  He did always fall for the wrong women....except at the end.  He was dating someone who did love him back (the one who got him to tell Lewis his first name).  

[dgpolo]

4 minutes ago, M. Darcy said:

He did always fall for the wrong women....except at the end.  He was dating someone who did love him back (the one who got him to tell Lewis his first name).  

I have no idea what the spoiler rules are for Endeavour/Morse so I'm going to spoiler tag this just in case.

Spoiler

In my re-watches of Morse I usually stop at the second to last episode, the one where he finally seems content with this woman and with his life. The last episode he is no longer with her and dies alone (except for Lewis I guess)

 

[M. Darcy]

6 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

                                                                                                                                                              

I don't know if I can quote a spoiler...but going by the books...and it's confusing what is considered canon or not - book or tv, I think at the end she was just out of town at the end, but he did leave her 1/3 of his estate (or I'm mixing up women).          

Heh, I do need to look at the last book again when I go home tonight. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by M. Darcy

[statsgirl]

20 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

At the very least, if I was her, I think I would take a pass on those biscuits!

It look me a while to figure out that that's why she insisted on getting the gold-wrapped sweeties, so that she would be protected from an accidental poisoning. But yeah, it didn't make sense to keep such a dangerous allergy from her co-workers.

2 hours ago, M. Darcy said:

Asked to explain that choice, Mr. Thaw said that Morse left Oxford before he got his degree because he was ''so upset and traumatized by a romance that didn't work out.'' From an old NYT article .  

More evidence that Morse is not the guy you should be having a relationship with. To quote Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing, he is too costly for everyday wear.

I don't feel bad for Morse or Joan, they've both knuckleheads about their relationship to each other, alternately longing and pushing each other away. If Joan has decided that she's going to accept Strange, something that I can understand of a woman in the sixties, without speaking to Morse first, so be it.

I do feel bad for Strange though. I hope that he never realizes that he was the 'settle for' option for Joan.

[Rickster]

Somehow I think the reason for Morse going down from Oxford was briefly explained by Endeavor in this series, but I have no recollection of the episode or even the season.

[Popples]

4 hours ago, M. Darcy said:

That's her!   According to the Morseuniverse before Endeavor (and my memories) she was the one that got away.   Heh, though she was one of many.  He did always fall for the wrong women....except at the end.  He was dating someone who did love him back (the one who got him to tell Lewis his first name).  

I also love that episode because Roger Allam is in it.

[JudyObscure]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:45 PM, Rickster said:

Somehow I think the reason for Morse going down from Oxford was briefly explained by Endeavor in this series, but I have no recollection of the episode or even the season.

I just asked Google about this and it took me to an interesting site by Roger Allam (as if I couldn't love Thursday more he's written about the show while barely mentioning himself.)  He says:

"In his undergraduate days Morse had a relationship that ended badly and resulted in him losing his scholarship and having to leave university without a degree to join the army."*

*https://all-allam.com/inspector-morse-and-endeavour/

[surfgirl]

I'm new to Endeavor, I love it but I thinknI only maybe watched last season? Should I just not watch this current final.season and go back and start at the beginning?

Also, I know that Morse and Insoector Lewis are related to Endeavor. What order is best to watch? Start with Endeavor, since it's his early years, then Morse because it's his later years, and then Lewis?

[Zella]

1 hour ago, surfgirl said:

I'm new to Endeavor, I love it but I thinknI only maybe watched last season? Should I just not watch this current final.season and go back and start at the beginning?

Also, I know that Morse and Insoector Lewis are related to Endeavor. What order is best to watch? Start with Endeavor, since it's his early years, then Morse because it's his later years, and then Lewis?

I can't speak for what is in the final season, but based on speculation about how Morse goes from the man we see at the beginning of Endeavour to the man we see in Morse, I would recommend watching this show from the beginning. It's quite the character trajectory. 

I never really warmed up to the show Morse and have never watched Lewis, but the general order of watching them seems logical to me. What's nice about this show, at least to me, is there are some nice Easter eggs for Morse viewers/readers, but it's easy to watch without prior knowledge of the earlier series. That's not always true for prequels I've watched. So, I think it's a nice balance of tribute to the original and unique standalone show in its own right. 

[M. Darcy]

I should have known Kenny was the killer - it’s always the most famous guest star. 
 

Lots of Brideshead Revisited shoutouts - the teddy bears, one of the gang’s last name is Mulcaster, and the actor who played the Sergeant in the tv series played Lt Hooper in the Brideshead tv series.
 

Only one episode to go!   

[7-Zark-7]

39 minutes ago, M. Darcy said:

Only one episode to go!

Seriously? They’re wrapping this up in one episode?

Now, I have to go back to the Blenheim Vale episodes. I can’t remember jack about it.