S04.E07: Rather the Fallen Angel

[The Crazed Spruce]

Quote

James falls in deeper with the Children of Liberty in his efforts to meet Agent Liberty; Supergirl and Manchester Black follow a lead on Agent Liberty's location, but things take a dark turn; Lena kicks off her first set of trials.

[cambridgeguy]

I guess Supergirl wasn't too pissed off with Manchester Black since she decided to float majestically in front of a facsimile of the Statue of Liberty's torch instead of going after him as he slowly sped off on his boat.

[statsgirl]

58 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I guess Supergirl wasn't too pissed off with Manchester Black since she decided to float majestically in front of a facsimile of the Statue of Liberty's torch instead of going after him as he slowly sped off on his boat.

It's all about  the symbolism.

They should have titled this "The Episode Where Everyone Gets Played".  Manchester Black played J'onn and Supergirl and in turn was played by Lockwood, and James was played by everyone, possibly even by Lena at the end when she said she would talk with him tomorrow. Even Ben Tom was played by the Agents because he believed they were good guys.

I don't think Lena was played except maybe by the Luthors who made her think that she belonged amongst the evil. Adam dying is a real downer.

Edited November 26, 2018 by statsgirl

[Lady Calypso]

It's a shame about non-Cat Grant son Adam. I actually was digging him and Lena, at least as semi-friends, so of course he would die. Lena's stuff is good IF they keep her in the morally grey area and not turn her evil. I'm hoping her scenes where she discusses the darkness in her do not go beyond that. Ever since Lena first appeared, that has been my worst fear...and I guess it's Lena's as well. 

So, J'onn is all sad because of an empathy enhancer device but also because Manchester killed some people! No offense, but J'onn and Kara's judgment about killing is really ridiculous since at least J'onn has most definitely killed some people in his time. Perhaps not all innocent people, but still. The hypocrisy from team Supergirl is definitely prevalent. Otherwise...why couldn't J'onn open up his jacket and tell Supergirl (through his tears) that Manchester put that device on him? I assume it's not easily detachable, or they just used that device as a single scene plot thing for David Harewood to extend his acting chops. 

James' plot is still the best of the season for me. It's interesting to see him so torn on taking down Agent Liberty but having to play along with their nefarious activities. 

I'm enjoying Manchester a little bit more. He definitely seems to be straddling the good vs evil line, which works for me as well. He turned in Supergirl to get to Agent Liberty but when he realized he was played, he helped Supergirl. He's definitely a little more evil than good, but he's pretty interesting to watch. He doesn't mention Fiona in every scene, but it's clear that he's motivated by her death. However, I still don't love the revenge over dead lover trope and am still annoyed that she had to die to set Manchester on his path. 

Not enough Brainy or Alex for me, but it was a strong James and Lena episode.

[mxc90]

How did Tom obtain James' suit and shield? I thought it's under tight security at Catco? I was wrong thinking Tom was helping Agent Liberty to set up James.

No lawyer convinced Adam/0331 or his family to sue the hospital for his brother's death? A rich man wouldn't end up being a lab rat for Lena.

If Lena was successful and gave Adam/0331 powers why was she convinced he would use it responsibly?

Did the dampeners have kryptonite? If so, one bullet can destroy it? 

Manchester should be smart enough to know he can't do this alone or betray powerful people. "F" him!

J'onn! There's no crying here...........

Edited November 26, 2018 by mxc90

[statsgirl]

4 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

If Lena is successful and gives Adam/0331 powers why is she convinced he will use it responsibly?

I can only assume that Lena used her university time to take science courses rather than philosophy or psychology because her reasoning that if people who are feel weak go to feeling stronger than the others they will be goo is deeply flawed. Evidence has shown us that often they're likely to beat up on the other group.

I was listening to an interview with law professor Benjamin Berger if this morning and he said that if people say they will do X if they have more power, when they get that power they end up doing it. (In his case it was laws overwriting the rights of citizens.)  I

If Lena gives the Agents of Liberty superpowers, they are more likely to use them to  kill aliens than be able to live in peace with them.

[Ubiquitous]

I found Lena performing her mad science in a warehouse on a guy who wasn't prepped laughable and found it ridiculous that Lena would remember something that happened to her when she was four years old. OK, I was amused at the spider question b/c it reminded me of that pysch test in Blade Runner with the turtle on its back.

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They should have titled this "The Episode Where Everyone Gets Played".  Manchester Black played J'onn and Supergirl and in turn was played by Lockwood, and James was played by everyone, possibly even by Lena at the end when she said she would talk with him tomorrow. Even Ben was played by the Agents because he believed they were good guys.

Good call!

Is the crybaby device on J'onn permanant or is he deep in his  feelings about being played?

I take it they've discussed Alien Ellis Island before and why it was shut down?

Nuclear devices detonated at high volume create EMP. I'm just saying'.

[tennisgurl]

Wait a minute, hold the phone. There was an alien Ellis Island this whole time? That had to to be built, accept immigrants, and shut down? Complete with welcome message by Supergirl?!? See, this is the kinds of stuff I wanted to know, and we get it as a throw away set! How much time has actually passed since the aliens first went public? I have questions! 

I like morally ambiguous Lena, I hope they dont use this as an excuse to turn her evil. Poor Adam, I was really hoping he would make it. He and Lena had a good back and fourth, it was nice to see her with someone else who felt they were a bad person, and them both kind of reassuring each other. 

I especially like morally ambiguous Lena because Kara can be so freaking self riotous sometimes, it can be really grating. I dont blame her for seeing Manchester Black as going WAY too dark for her, but her and J'onn constantly hand wringing about killing, especially when both of them have definitely killed people before, is just super ridiculous at this point. I wish that Fiona hadn't had to be killed to set Manchester on his revenge journey into darkness, but I do like him a lot, so thats something at least. Like Lena, I like that he works on a morally grey scale, even more so than Lena does so far. 

Good that Kara had time for some thematic slow motion landing there in the midst of betrayal. 

I find the Agents of Liberty stuff to be pretty hit or miss, but its definitely the best story James has gotten in years, so I am really excited about that at least. 

[Perfect Xero]

I kept waiting for Manchester to shoot Tom during the big fight at the end.

Once again I find it ridiculous that aliens, all of whom apparently have superpowers, are nearly helpless against attacks by the agents of liberty, yet Manchester Black easily kills a dozen of them.

It seemed like Lena did very little to vet Adam, I mean, I don't know if "brother died while donating a kidney" would come up on a normal background check, but I'd hope she's going above and beyond before possibly giving someone superpowers.

Was there supposed to be something more to attention being called to both Adam and Lena having green eyes?

[shantown]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Wait a minute, hold the phone. There was an alien Ellis Island this whole time? That had to to be built, accept immigrants, and shut down? Complete with welcome message by Supergirl?!? See, this is the kinds of stuff I wanted to know, and we get it as a throw away set! How much time has actually passed since the aliens first went public? I have questions!  

I thought it was a video manip at first and the Liberty Goons were going to lure aliens there to steal their powers and kill them. If this was a known location before now I totally forgot about it - this seems like it should have been a much bigger plot point earlier on. I dislike it because it takes away from Kara being this sort of isolated refugee from another planet... but they also brought back Argo City and made it so she wasn’t the last of her kind anymore so... I don’t know, I feel in their need to raise the stakes they’ve lost what grounded the show and made Kara Zor-El unique/compelling. 

[CletusMusashi]

Dear Writers: The crucifixion pose that Supergirl was chained up and pulled into was way too subtle. I did not understand that symbolism at all. In the future, please try to use much larger heavier anvils. Preferably with Fouad from "Family Guy" walking through each scene and loudly explaining everything to me.

[Lantern7]

Weird that I liked this episode, even though nothing had changed, and many of the main cast took heavy losses. It's not like I'm feeling like skipping directly to "Elseworlds," but tonight was less of a grind.

Does Manchester have any tops that don't have a Union Jack? Of course he'd sell out Supergirl to get close to Agent Liberty. Of course Agent Liberty was nowhere near the island. He does manage to turn J'onn into a weepy mess. Also, he might have told the Martian that the hat was not working for him.

47 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Dear Writers: The crucifixion pose that Supergirl was chained up and pulled into was way too subtle. I did not understand that symbolism at all. In the future, please try to use much larger heavier anvils. Preferably with Fouad from "Family Guy" walking through each scene and loudly explaining everything to me.

"Fouad"? And I missed the symbolism . . . more focused on "Wait, did Kara see Wonder Woman and steal Diana's wall-climbing scene from her?" The bit with trying to heat vision and inadvertently alerting James was a nice bit, though.

ETA: "Rather the Fallen Angel"= ?????

Edited November 26, 2018 by Lantern7

[legaleagle53]

43 minutes ago, shantown said:

I thought it was a video manip at first and the Liberty Goons were going to lure aliens there to steal their powers and kill them. If this was a known location before now I totally forgot about it - this seems like it should have been a much bigger plot point earlier on. I dislike it because it takes away from Kara being this sort of isolated refugee from another planet... but they also brought back Argo City and made it so she wasn’t the last of her kind anymore so... I don’t know, I feel in their need to raise the stakes they’ve lost what grounded the show and made Kara Zor-El unique/compelling. 

Kara never was "the last of her kind." She has a cousin who arrived on Earth before she did as well as an aunt and uncle who arrived when Fort Rozz crashed on Earth, remember?  Now, if you mean that she was the sole survivor of Argo's supposed destruction and therefore the only surviving member of her immediate family (meaning her biological parents), then yes, in a sense she would have been "the last of her kind" if Alura and Argo City itself hadn't also survived Krypton's destruction. That still wouldn't have made her the last Kryptonian standing, however -- not as long as Superman was still alive.

[AnimeMania]

I liked Subject 0331, here is hoping that Subject 0332 is just as enjoyable.

The DEO should have weaponized those alien superpower stealing rays from Shelley Island to give themselves a fighting chance.

[tennisgurl]

30 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

The DEO should have weaponized those alien superpower stealing rays from Shelley Island to give themselves a fighting chance.

Yeah, I do wonder how that whole "no guns, ever ever" policy is working out for them. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Wait a minute, hold the phone. There was an alien Ellis Island this whole time? That had to to be built, accept immigrants, and shut down? Complete with welcome message by Supergirl?!? See, this is the kinds of stuff I wanted to know, and we get it as a throw away set! How much time has actually passed since the aliens first went public? I have questions! 

Oh, good. I honestly thought this was just me and I'd forgotten several episodes or even an entire season of the show.

BUT OH THE QUESTIONS. Like, why are these aliens being greeted by Supergirl? And in English, no less - yes, it's a common/kinda worldwide language, but still, if aliens were monitoring the planet and going with the most common languages, they presumably would have arrived trying to chatter in Mandarin and Spanish. (Especially since the people they are a none-too-subtle metaphor for frequently speak Spanish!) Who decided to direct them to the United States instead of, I don't know, literally any other country? Especially given that the United States has been the direct target of several May attacks! If I were an alien I'd try to go to Jamaica, which not only has very nice beaches BUT ALSO has not been attacked by aliens on this show! Does Jamaica have a facility like this? Who was running this facility? The DEO? Regular Homeland Security? How did they know how to build a system that weakened the powers of every single alien but left humans unharmed?  (I thought the lead only harmed Daxamites and Kryptonite only harms Supergirl and Superman? J'onn hasn't been weakened by either.) Why was it shut down? Is Russia picking up the slack? (Suggested by those brief glimpses of Powergirl.)  And why didn't that facility appear to have a landing pad large enough for SPACESHIPS? Did they just assume that the aliens would fly into the water and then walk up that nice landing dock?

Also, what is going on out there that's forcing all of these aliens to flee to Earth anyway? (Unless they're just here for the coffee. I understand that.) And why aren't the Green Lanterns giving us updates on any of this, Berlanti? If I have to deal with blatant shots of the Vancouver city skyline in the background, not to mention Supergirl and Manchester Black initially meeting in the outdoor location where Team Arrow and Team Not Arrow tried to take down Diaz last season (it was nice to see it in the daylight, though) not to mention the return to Everyone's Favorite Vancouver Harbor location shooting place, you can answer my outer space questions!

[BaggythePanther]

59 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Does Manchester have any tops that don't have a Union Jack? Of course he'd sell out Supergirl to get close to Agent Liberty. Of course Agent Liberty was nowhere near the island. He does manage to turn J'onn into a weepy mess. Also, he might have told the Martian that the hat was not working for him.

I believe in the comics Manchester Black has the Union Jack tattooed on his chest, so this is an improvement. I wonder if the machine he attached to J’onn also gives him his comic superpowers?

 I spent the whole episode waiting for the reveal that Tom was working with the CoL to coerce James to blow up Not-Ellis Island. Glad that wasn’t what happened and I wish they’d made a bigger deal about the fact that James was actually able to change someone’s mind.

[quarks]

You know what? I have more questions:

Since the Agents of Liberty set this entire thing up to kill Supergirl, they know that humans have the technology to at least weaken and potentially completely remove alien superpowers - one that apparently isn't, like Kryptonite and lead, targeted only at specific alien species. Given that and their supposed goals, why on earth were they bothering to target Supergirl, instead of studying that technology and figuring out how to target every remaining alien, at the very least weakening their powers and potentially removing the powers entirely?

How are the aliens getting here? I was assuming spaceships, but given this entire alien processing island without, apparently, any space for spaceships to land, are they coming in through portals? Green Lantern rings? Little space pods like the ones that brought Clark, Kara and Mon-El?

[sweetandsour]

Guyssss, I don't understand the timeline of the last 7 minutes or so (everything after the last commercial break).  It's clearly still late at night, pre-sunrise.  Lena makes a recording citing Adam's death at 4:03 am.  No way has an entire day passed and she's just now recording her notes on the next night.  But after the events at "surprise! I exist!" island, both Kara and James are at the office - again, pre-sunrise.  Okay, fine, they don't go to bed and go to work instead.  Then James heads over to Lena's office - again, same night, pre-sunrise - let's say about 5 am, maybe 5:30 am, holding up a bag and suggesting, "let's eat the pasta I just bought for us and have a spontaneous date at this hour!"

Like everyone else, I agree there are sooooo many questions about Shelley Island and these power dampeners created by humans that seemingly aren't in the DEO.  And WOW.  Way to protect those dampener machines!  There was no security or shield for them whatsoever.  So an alien can't destroy them with alien powers that have been dampened, but if they're carrying weapons to destroy the dampeners, it's back to business.

I don't understand where these jokes about Kara and pie are coming from this season.  Alex joked about Kara's burnt mess like it was a reheated turkey, but it was clearly a charred pie. And why did the destruction of county fair pies in a previous episode deserve a special lamentation from Kara, but nothing for her own burnt disaster?  I guess they turned down the Dean Winchester channeling this episode.

I personally am not enjoying J'onn's storylines at all this season.  I want him back to being a BAMF.  And I know this show generally has the characters hold overly simplistic perspectives, but I've been totally over it for a while.  Mostly I'm really over Kara being so shocked that people don't share her overly simplistic viewpoint.  That said, I also thought James was being a real bonehead and Lena/Tess are immensely disappointing in their complete myopia of the chaos/danger that will result in some/all humans having superpowers.

Fiona would be horrified by what's become of the man she was going to marry.

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Wait a minute, hold the phone. There was an alien Ellis Island this whole time? That had to to be built, accept immigrants, and shut down? Complete with welcome message by Supergirl?!? See, this is the kinds of stuff I wanted to know, and we get it as a throw away set! How much time has actually passed since the aliens first went public? I have questions! 

You would have thought that it would have at least showed up in a background shot before now, what with the giant Lady Liberty-like statue and all.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Was there supposed to be something more to attention being called to both Adam and Lena having green eyes?

Yeah, that seemed like an odd point for Eve to bring up, only for it not to be relevant to anything in the episode.  Cut scene maybe ?

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

The DEO should have weaponized those alien superpower stealing rays from Shelley Island to give themselves a fighting chance.

If they had this tech all along, and just opted not to bother using it that seems bizarre when it would have come in handy so many times.
Let alone that they left functioning superpower stealing rays unguarded on Shelly Island for anyone to steal/utilize.  Was Shelly Island run by the DEO ?

And you would have thought that Kara might have mentioned having recorded those videos.

Liked the cover of Corey Hart's 'Never Surrender' during Lena/James' scene at the end.

[thuganomics85]

Love you, J'onn, but I about died when you were all "Killing changes you!" to Manchester.  Dude, you are about several dead bodies too late for that line to work.  At least he now knows that thanks to that handy empathy device!

Anyway, Manchester is pretty much The Punisher now, which I'm sure is suppose to be a bad thing, but I'm digging it!  Sure, it will probably end with him either getting tricked by Ben or refusing to pull the trigger for reasons, but I'm all for someone taking down the Children of Liberty any way possible.  Hope he sticks around.  At the very least, this show has to find some way to create an episode titled "Manchester By the Sea!"

The scenes with Lena and poor doomed Adam were nice, although I kept thinking that Adam must not pay much attention to media (lucky him!), because I would have to think Lena would be a pretty big public figure in this universe.  Someone who is always showing up on television, the internet, etc.  But, anyway, he's dead, she's made advancements in her research, is cold to James now, and this will probably end badly for everyone.  Also, she talks about how her real mom died in a lake, which means that will probably end up being a fake-out.  Maybe she was saved by Aquaman!

Right now, I feel like Ben's main flaw with the whole villainous thing is that he's going too big and trying to do all of it at once.  Blowing up the statue alone would have worked.  Forcing James to do it is risky, but I guess it proves his point.  But then trying to kill Supergirl at the same time?  Pace yourself, dude!  This only the seventh episode!

Not much of the DEO here, but I did enjoy Alex reaction to J'onn bringing wings after Kara nuked (err, sorry?) the turkey, and Brainy in front of the television, memorized.  I could watch an entire webseries or something of Brainy reacting to current films and television!

[Perfect Xero]

5 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Right now, I feel like Ben's main flaw with the whole villainous thing is that he's going too big and trying to do all of it at once.  Blowing up the statue alone would have worked.  Forcing James to do it is risky, but I guess it proves his point.  But then trying to kill Supergirl at the same time?  Pace yourself, dude!  This only the seventh episode!

Given how quickly the show chewed through Mercy and her brother I think that Ben is just trying to get through his villainy checklist before his ticket gets punched.

[VCRTracking]

Seriously, I better not hear any gasp or "Scooby Doo ending"-type tone of surprise when Supergirl and the DEO finds out Lockwood is Agent Liberty.

Edited November 26, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ottoDbusdriver]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Seriously, I better not hear any gasp or "Scooby Doo ending"-type tone of surprise when Supergirl and the DEO finds out Lockwood is Agent Liberty.

And Lockwood's plan would have worked too, if not for those meddling kids.

[Ubiquitous]

9 hours ago, shantown said:

I thought it was a video manip at first and the Liberty Goons were going to lure aliens there to steal their powers and kill them.

Yeah, I wondered about that as well since I don;t think anyone has ever mentioned Alien Ellis Island the few times I have watched this before, but I am wondering why the fence that suppresses your powers when you walk thru it was left behind and no one has created  a portable, mobile version. Why didn't she fly over the fence instead of depending on the "yellow sun hand grenade", and how would that work, exactly, in a field that suppresses superpowers? For that matter, it didn't seem to work all that well on our heroine if she could still fly.

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

. . . more focused on "Wait, did Kara see Wonder Woman and steal Diana's wall-climbing scene from her?" The bit with trying to heat vision and inadvertently alerting James was a nice bit, though.

 

Did I miss how Supergirl ended up banging her fist on that window about 30 feet up the wall? How inconvenient for her it was one of those thick bulletproof glass type windows she couldn't smash her way thru.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ubiquitous
Spelling

[Oreo2234]

Quote

I personally am not enjoying J'onn's storylines at all this season.  I want him back to being a BAMF.  And I know this show generally has the characters hold overly simplistic perspectives, but I've been totally over it for a while. 

I noticed the show has toned down both J'onn and Alex's more ruthless sides so they are more in line with Kara now. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Oreo2234

[slowpoked]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Given how quickly the show chewed through Mercy and her brother I think that Ben is just trying to get through his villainy checklist before his ticket gets punched.

I’m honestly over this storyline. Can’t wait until they finally and inevitably move on to Russian Supergirl.

[ottoDbusdriver]

59 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

I’m honestly over this storyline. Can’t wait until they finally and inevitably move on to Russian Supergirl.

That's right -- we are Kasnian Supergirl free for yet another episode.  I wonder how long they are going to drag this out.

[Quark]

A really great episode, one of the best of the season.

Especially liked Lena's scenes.

[HunterHunted]

14 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I can only assume that Lena used her university time to take science courses rather than philosophy or psychology because her reasoning that if people who are feel weak go to feeling stronger than the others they will be goo is deeply flawed. Evidence has shown us that often they're likely to beat up on the other group.

Except that the moment she started to take classes where they would use human samples and human test subjects in their lab courses, her university would have required an ethics course that would have touched on human subjects research and the issues surrounding it.

11 hours ago, quarks said:

Since the Agents of Liberty set this entire thing up to kill Supergirl, they know that humans have the technology to at least weaken and potentially completely remove alien superpowers - one that apparently isn't, like Kryptonite and lead, targeted only at specific alien species. Given that and their supposed goals, why on earth were they bothering to target Supergirl, instead of studying that technology and figuring out how to target every remaining alien, at the very least weakening their powers and potentially removing the powers entirely?

The only sensible play is to have someone like Mercy Graves help them to figure out how to reverse engineer those power dampened and stick them on every cell phone tower on the planet. And then stick them on every satellite. That gives them a two level net: an orbital net that would prevent sub-orbital aliens from using their powers and a ground level net that captures everyone else. And even though Lena locked them out, they know that the holographic image inducers can be hacked.

But glad to see that the CoL have decided to concentrate on solutions that work and actually make a material difference: alien sniffing dogs, bombs, and baseball bats.

[innocuouspuff]

14 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Dear Writers: The crucifixion pose that Supergirl was chained up and pulled into was way too subtle. I did not understand that symbolism at all. In the future, please try to use much larger heavier anvils. Preferably with Fouad from "Family Guy" walking through each scene and loudly explaining everything to me.

That shot was so specifically composed that I thought it must be a comic book cover as well, but the only hits I'm getting on google for Superman Jesus pose are that infamous shot from Man of Steel. Maybe that's the reference.

The reasons for only attacking Kara would be the same as the reasons for getting Guardian to make that video and staging this whole scenario on Alien Ells Island - terrorism. It's about getting their message out and intimidating other aliens. 

[Ubiquitous]

15 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Quote

Dear Writers: The crucifixion pose that Supergirl was chained up and pulled into was way too subtle. I did not understand that symbolism at all. In the future, please try to use much larger heavier anvils. Preferably with Fouad from "Family Guy" walking through each scene and loudly explaining everything to me.

"Fouad"?

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, J'onn is all sad because of an empathy enhancer device but also because Manchester killed some people! No offense, but J'onn and Kara's judgment about killing is really ridiculous since at least J'onn has most definitely killed some people in his time. Perhaps not all innocent people, but still. The hypocrisy from team Supergirl is definitely prevalent. Otherwise...why couldn't J'onn open up his jacket and tell Supergirl (through his tears) that Manchester put that device on him? I assume it's not easily detachable, or they just used that device as a single scene plot thing for David Harewood to extend his acting chops.

...

I'm enjoying Manchester a little bit more. He definitely seems to be straddling the good vs evil line, which works for me as well. He turned in Supergirl to get to Agent Liberty but when he realized he was played, he helped Supergirl. He's definitely a little more evil than good, but he's pretty interesting to watch. He doesn't mention Fiona in every scene, but it's clear that he's motivated by her death. However, I still don't love the revenge over dead lover trope and am still annoyed that she had to die to set Manchester on his path. 

I don't know if J'onn in fact has directly killed anyone not in the heat of battle who did not pose a high-level threat. I believe he killed J'emm back in the first season. Supergirl was willing to kill Mon-El's mom and presumably can be said to be responsible for any Daxamites who died to lead poisoning. 

I don't consider it hypocrisy for J'onn and Supergirl to be of the mindset that killing should be a last resort, if that. Of course, it is easy to have that moral stance when you have their power level and can thus usually avoid killing.

Manchester Black has killed probably what, a dozen Children of Liberty in basically cold blood, so I think he's firmly in the evil side. 

16 hours ago, mxc90 said:

No lawyer convinced Adam/0331 or his family to sue the hospital for his brother's death? A rich man wouldn't end up being a lab rat for Lena.

If Lena was successful and gave Adam/0331 powers why was she convinced he would use it responsibly?

Did the dampeners have kryptonite? If so, one bullet can destroy it? 

The Adam's family (danadada) might not have had a case.  Not every death during a surgical procedure is going to be reflective of a doctor's mistake, and there is some level of assumption of risk.

The show answered that Adam was selected for answering a question about what he would do about a spider who stayed in the bathtub the way Lena did. Rather than kill it or move it from the bathroom, Adam and Lena both would not interfere with the spider. Lena concluded that someone like Adam would therefore be neutral if he got powers, neither doing the (arguably) villainous thing of killing the spider or the (arguably) do-gooder thing of releasing it.

Who can say how the power dampeners worked, or how they would work against multiple alien species, or why they have not been deployed at the DEO or elsewhere, or why Alien Ellis Island was set up, shut down, or why it was left for the COL to take over?

16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I can only assume that Lena used her university time to take science courses rather than philosophy or psychology because her reasoning that if people who are feel weak go to feeling stronger than the others they will be goo is deeply flawed. Evidence has shown us that often they're likely to beat up on the other group.

I was listening to an interview with law professor Benjamin Berger if this morning and he said that if people say they will do X if they have more power, when they get that power they end up doing it. (In his case it was laws overwriting the rights of citizens.)  I

If Lena gives the Agents of Liberty superpowers, they are more likely to use them to  kill aliens than be able to live in peace with them.

I don't think Lena has any intention of giving the Children of Liberty superpowers. People who call sentient beings roaches would seemingly fail the spider test hard.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, innocuouspuff said:

That shot was so specifically composed that I thought it must be a comic book cover as well, but the only hits I'm getting on google for Superman Jesus pose are that infamous shot from Man of Steel. Maybe that's the reference.

While there are always Jesus allegories in comics, the Pieta seems to be their go to image. Comics love a Pieta inspired cover.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pieta+comic+covers&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1m_Pg7PLeAhUES60KHcMgBngQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=768&bih=1024

So I guess bully to Michelangelo. Not only would his name inspire Wolfram and Laird to name a mutated turtle who is a ninja after him, his works (the Sistine Chapel, especially the Creation of Adam, David, and the Pieta) would inspire countless others and be recycled endlessly in pop culture.

[innocuouspuff]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

While there are always Jesus allegories in comics, the Pieta seems to be their go to image. Comics love a Pieta inspired cover.

Ha, yeah, comics is super referential and the show has done fun cover recreations before. I sort of can't believe they've never done a Pietá shot now that you mention it, unless I'm forgetting one. I'm still getting weird déjá vu on that shot of Supergirl on the ground - it wasn't just her pose but also the CoL on the edges of the frame. Very comic book-y. The chains are also a beloved Superman/girl motif (bringing us back to allegories, lol).

Edited November 26, 2018 by innocuouspuff

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Except that the moment she started to take classes where they would use human samples and human test subjects in their lab courses, her university would have required an ethics course that would have touched on human subjects research and the issues surrounding it.

Human subjects ethics courses are primarily about informed consent, which Lena more than covered, and debriefing after the study is over.  The hospital ethics courses they made me take when I was going to do research with patients emphasized confidentiality and making sure anything you send over the internet is encrypted.  None of the ethics courses I took talked about things like what the experience of the subject is during the research much less happens to him or her after you've concluded your research.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think Lena has any intention of giving the Children of Liberty superpowers. People who call sentient beings roaches would seemingly fail the spider test hard.

The spider test was just to select the subjects for her experiments, not who gets it if it is successful. If Lena is the one who decides who gets the superpower treatment and who doesn't, she becomes a virtual god.  That brings its own set of dangers.

Edited November 26, 2018 by statsgirl

[HunterHunted]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Human subjects ethics courses are primarily about informed consent, which Lena more than covered, and debriefing after the study is over.  Hospital ethics courses emphasize confidentiality and making sure anything you send over the internet is encrypted.  None of the ethics courses I took talked about areas like what happens to the subject after you've concluded your research.

Neither did mine, but I can't argue that I finished undergrad and started medical school without at least a cursory exploration of these subjects. It's also possible that because I was in a premed and medical program between the late 90s abd early aughts (during the Dolly the sheep era) that my experience was influenced by that situation too.

[Jodithgrace]

So Lena gives what seems to be super powers to a cadaver heart and suddenly goes right to human subjects? What happened to white rats, or other lab animals? What kind of a lousy scientist is Lena? Or is she a member of PETA? Even "mad scientists" use animals first before human subjects. And Adam was justifiably surprised that he was the only subject. Science just doesn't work that way!

[VCRTracking]

I'm guessing the reason Shelley Island was "abandoned" was because they didn't have the budget to do a scene like this:

Edited November 27, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ItCouldBeWorse]

20 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

I don't understand where these jokes about Kara and pie are coming from this season.  Alex joked about Kara's burnt mess like it was a reheated turkey, but it was clearly a charred pie.

I think it must have been turkey pot pie, because she then brought a pot pie to Manchester Black.( I hope she had made more than one, but I believe that's the explanation.)

[angora]

While James was dumb to go, “I’ll do ANYTHING you ask, just don’t hurt him” (what if they told you to kill some innocent aliens?), I did like his dilemma and his decision that protecting a life meant more than his reputation.  I get that it goes beyond that, and video footage of Guardian destroying that statue could’ve led to a lot more violence, but that plot was compelling to me.

Good stuff with Lena, even if the whole “solitary human subject” thing was bad science.  Her monologue about her feelings of guilt over her mother’s death was awesome.

I want to know everything about the events that led to Brainy hanging out with Kara and Alex, staring intently at the TV while holding a notepad.  (Also, J’onn showing up at Kara’s place with wings - I love all “weird little interterrestrial (is that the word?) found family” scenes.  Keep ‘em coming, show, and I admit I’ll forgive an awful lot of nonsense.)

[secnarf]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:50 PM, Ubiquitous said:

I found Lena performing her mad science in a warehouse on a guy who wasn't prepped laughable and found it ridiculous that Lena would remember something that happened to her when she was four years old. OK, I was amused at the spider question b/c it reminded me of that pysch test in Blade Runner with the turtle on its back.

I remember plenty of ordinary things from when I was four, as well as certain more 'memorable' memories from as young as two. I don't find it hard to believe at all that she remembers a traumatic memory from when she was 4.

12 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I’m honestly over this storyline. Can’t wait until they finally and inevitably move on to Russian Supergirl.

I keep forgetting all about Russian Supergirl. She'll probably show up in the antepenultimate episode.

[ottoDbusdriver]

21 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I’m honestly over this storyline. Can’t wait until they finally and inevitably move on to Russian Supergirl.

That's right -- we are Kasnian Supergirl free for yet another episode.  I wonder how long they are going to drag this out.

[Ubiquitous]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:53 PM, Jodithgrace said:

So Lena gives what seems to be super powers to a cadaver heart and suddenly goes right to human subjects? What happened to white rats, or other lab animals? What kind of a lousy scientist is Lena? Or is she a member of PETA? Even "mad scientists" use animals first before human subjects. And Adam was justifiably surprised that he was the only subject. Science just doesn't work that way!

But mad scientist science does! 

On 11/26/2018 at 9:36 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think it must have been turkey pot pie, because she then brought a pot pie to Manchester Black.( I hope she had made more than one, but I believe that's the explanation.)

Didn't the one she turned into charcoal have a lattice crust usually used for fruit pies? 

[DavidJSnyder]

So, I don't think the writer's want me to think Lena just murdered a guy who let her because he was depressed, but Lena totally just murdered a guy who let her because he was depressed.  Also,  I don't know if it was the actor or the material, but that guy's delivery was horrible.  That stuff was all supposed to be emotional, and it's all overwrought and fake.  It was so fake I was hoping he was going to end up to be a secret Son of Liberty trying to trick Lena into giving him superpowers just to make me feel like the fakeness was intentional.

Mehcad Brooks though I thought did a good job with what he had to work with, though I don't see how you jump from people are more important than my reputation to I should forgive Lena for lying to me.

I can accept power dampeners on the Flash because their powers generally come from a common dark matter source, but alien "powers" should generally just be the result of their different biology and not something you can switch off generically.  

I like Manchester Black's magic breast plate though.

[ottoDbusdriver]

31 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

I can accept power dampeners on the Flash because their powers generally come from a common dark matter source, but alien "powers" should generally just be the result of their different biology and not something you can switch off generically.  

Kara gets her powers from the sun -- and despite walking into the dampening field, she was still outside standing in bright sunlight.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The scenes with Lena and poor doomed Adam were nice, although I kept thinking that Adam must not pay much attention to media (lucky him!), because I would have to think Lena would be a pretty big public figure in this universe. 

That's what I wondered too. Isn't Lena sort of famous? Hasn't she been on TV and stuff? I'd think if you know who Supergirl is, you'd know who Lena Luthor is. 

[Rushmoras]

Never before seen Ellis Island (sorry, Shelly Island), just now casually mentioned power dampening pylons... are they taking a page from Once Upon a Time creators or what? Next thing you know, they leave pivotal plot elements unanswered and/or left forgotten (hmm... kinda like Alex quest for Dad).

Sigh. so empathy enhancer makes John wanna cry. Oh, boy, give me a break. If it's not one of the main actors in the show crying per season, it's the other. I'm waiting till they make Brainy cry now. Also, empathy enhancer. Yes, they are pulling stuff from their asses. Deus ex machina in a pocket. Hooray.

James, you are a useless tool, too bad this is not that kinda show and you are one of the main cast, but in any other show you'd be dead by now.

P.S. Basically, now, Manchester is Punisher (what is DC equivalent for Punisher?). Let him do punisher's things. Let him kill the bad guys. Who cares.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Rushmoras

[Trini]

35 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

I'm waiting till they make Brainy cry now.

[Rushmoras]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

Ooh, right, forgot that one :D