S03.E09: The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning

[PepSinger]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

She isn't working, she is searching for a job.

Hahahaha. As my mother told, and as I experienced a few months ago, looking for a full-time job is a full-time job that has no pay and no benefits. Anyone who has a four-year degree and is looking to make more than $15/hr has spent a significant amount of time looking for work. Looking for a full time job is something that should NOT be dismissed.

 

59 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I'm a middle school chorus teacher, and let me tell you...it's a hard, hard job. This is coming from someone who had straight A's her entire life and attended a prestigious college. It's completely different from being, for instance, the choir director at a small church (not knocking them either! They are very needed). Middle school chorus requires planning for six completely different classes every day, planning concerts, producing musicals (being the director, musical director, choreographer, costume and set designer, etc), fundraising and handling money, and knowing enough music theory and history to teach different things to several different classes. Also, you have to know a LOT about child development, as music teachers are certified K-12. It's far from a job anyone could do off the street, and I think college is a fair barrier, as that's where you learn about child development / lesson planning, as well as advanced musical theory / planning events. 

Thank you. I still have fond memories of my middle school music teachers. I know how important they are, and they are the reason I went into musical theatre and pursued a degree on acting. The fact that you have to defend why it's necessary to have a four year degree for what you do shows how little appreciation K-12 teachers are given and why so many are underpaid.

Edited November 28, 2018 by PepSinger

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I hated that because in reality the other councilman probably doesn't really live their either.  He probably has an address in the area.

Also, it was annoying as fuck. WE. GET. IT.

To add onto the Kate discussion, I cannot believe that she thought she would be qualified to teach without a four year degree. WTF? It strains credibility that she would be that stupid. Even if she didn't want to tell Madison, the minute the principal contacted her, she should've told him the truth.

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

We also don't know THAT Rebecca is dying in the flashforwards, at least right away. My first thought was dementia or Alzheimer's, hence why Beth was bringing the Pin the Tail game. Maybe that memory (with the Big Three having it at their birthdays as kids) is the only one that really sticks with older Rebecca, so it's a memory jogger. 

Yes, it could be a good memory for a person with Alzheimer's or similar, but I think the way Tess and Randall were approaching the visit with dread, and Toby had to be cajoled, it seems more serious/final than a regular visit to a loved one with dementia.  Plus the verbiage about "she would want you there", whether the she is Kate or Rebecca, makes me pivot away from that.  It seems more end of life. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Most families are Dull and mundane. 

The older I get and learn about people, the more and more I realize that this isn't true.  YMMV

[Ohiopirate02]

I like the idea of Kate going back to school to become a music teacher.  The writers have struggled with storylines for Kate, so I welcome this one.  It's a reasonable storyline instead of her trying to become a singer at 38 or Randall running for city council while he lives in another state.  I think it shows growth for Kate as she is finally becoming an adult.  

[anna0852]

39 minutes ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

How could Nicky fake his death to his family but not the military?  I don’t know what the military did as to families of deceased soldiers (condolence letter?  paperwork?) but didn’t his parents wonder why they never got any “official” notice from the army?

 

I don't think he could have. The Army was shipping deceased soldiers home for burial during Vietnam and there would have been all sorts of paperwork and surviors benefits. Jack would have know about all of those. Nicky is living under his legal name and the Army doesn't list him on the memorial, so clearly there has been no 'legal' death as far as the military is concerned. No letter home from a buddy annoucing Nicky's death would have been sufficient, the family would have immediately approached the army. Any sort of fake death, miliary or not, would have been almost impossible to pull off while letting Nicky use his real name. 

My theory is that Nicky did *something* in Vietname, maybe even served time over it, and Jack has written him off. Maybe he told his kids he 'lost his brother in Vietnam' because whatever Nicky became/did was enough for Jack to consider him dead. And the parents probably know the truth and dad at least blames Jack. Bodies coming home from Vietname were being televised nightly on the news. No way Dad at least just takes Jack's word that Nicky is dead without paperwork from the Army.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Every coach at my high school was also a full time teacher. Even the football and basketball coaches taught a minimum of four classes per day just like everyone else so they all had teaching credentials and bachelor degrees in something. Some of them taught PE classes but some of them taught academic classes. One of the cheerleading coaches taught history all day (no PE classes). The choir teacher, the marching band teacher, and the drama teacher at my high school were also full time teachers. They taught four periods per day of their subject, just like a math teacher or history teacher would teach four classes of their subject per day.

I don't think it's ridiculous to expect that an educator should be educated in the subject they're teaching. What I think is ridiculous is Kate not asking about the minimum requirements before going to an interview for a job and then acting surprised that she wasn't eligible. And as a choir teacher, her job isn't to just give positive feedback to whoever wants to sing. She should be able to teach choir students basic music theory at the very least, and as far as we know, her musical training consists of singing in her bedroom as a teenager, so even without a teaching credential she seems woefully underqualified for this job.

This makes me feel a lot better because I was an A/A+ student in English and I once had a 24 year old high school teacher who graded me differently than I was used to and on top of that couldn't spell.  Experiences like this, and others, made me suspicious of her credentials.  I mean good for her if she had all of this but I still think proper spelling should be a requirement for English teachers, colour me crazy.  (Canadian spelling there).  On the other hand, I had other teachers who seemed to be genius prodigies in their field and who pushed me to be so inspired and so much better as a student.  Quite the range.  I totally agree with you that the more education and credentials for teachers, the better. I don't think that's ridiculous at all.  Now, they should get paid more than they do but that's a different issue altogether.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Kdawg82]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So the flash forward is to Rebecca's deathbed? 

I dont think so because why did Beth's (assistant??) Tell her she already prepared the "pin the tail on the donkey " game? I thought maybe it's a grandchild ? Idk. 

Randall- you ruined your beautiful family dammit!!! Bad bad move.  Beth- I somehow can see her as a dance company owner/teacher. 

Maybe the flash forward isn't going to be Nicky the uncle...maybe it's an extreme flash forward and it's Nicky the child of Kate and Toby? Nah. But altogether good finale.

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I like the idea of Kate going back to school to become a music teacher.  The writers have struggled with storylines for Kate, so I welcome this one.  It's a reasonable storyline instead of her trying to become a singer at 38 or Randall running for city council while he lives in another state.  I think it shows growth for Kate as she is finally becoming an adult.  

I like it, too, it is one of the more sensible things they have given Kate to do, but at the same time, she didn't seem to realize that liking chorus as a high school student wasn't enough to qualify her for the job, so I have to wonder how much she knows about what it would be like to actually teach adolescents. 

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I like it, too, it is one of the more sensible things they have given Kate to do, but at the same time, she didn't seem to realize that liking chorus as a high school student wasn't enough to qualify her for the job, so I have to wonder how much she knows about what it would be like to actually teach adolescents. 

It WAS nice for the show to actually have the principal not give her the job due to not having a college degree. 

We did get a glimpse of how she handles kids in that one season 1 episode. She wasn't all that great but maybe with her own baby on the way, she might grow and mature? She'll be in school for the rest of the season, regardless, but maybe she'll learn how to act around teenagers. I'm all for a really good Kate plot and her being a teacher is way better than her being a singer. 

[TwoGrayTabbies]

If Jack pulled a “you’re dead to me” on Nicky, that diminishes his halo by a few hundred watts.  Whatever Nicky did, it happened when he was afflicted by extreme trauma and not functioning normally.  If Jack could fake his way through a medical exam to enlist in the army to protect Nicky, he certainly could have offered some support to Nicky.  Not approval, not an escape from consequences, but “you’re still my brother, I am still here for you, you’ve got potential for rehabilitation.”  

Damn, I was going to quit this show once the “Her” mystery was resolved.  Now I have to find out what happened with Nicky.

[MsChicklet]

There's a lot Kate could do. The skills, experience and contacts she got working for Kevin could help her find work. She could be an event planner or a project manager for a music-related business or organization.

[BusyOctober]

My guess is Future Beth was standing in what will be the new & improved “Pearson Community Rec Center” that St. Randall of Alpine brings forth after his historic come from behind, landslide win for a Council seat in the community in which neither he nor his family ever reside.  The new Rec Center will have:

ballet classes lead by Misty Copeland

basketball clinics run by LeBron James

counseling and therapy courtesy of Oprah

a free restaurant with Michelin Star chefs

a free health clinic staffed with doctors, surgeons and nurses from world renowned research hospitals

a bank ready to give small business loans to everyone, regardless of credit status 

3 Olympic sized swimming pools

a black diamond ski/snowboard run with chairlift 

and coming in 2035! a free Academy for Alternative Higher Education for Gifted But Underserved Youth with Professors Charles Xavier & Dumbledore

(If the TIU writers can live in a fantasy world, then let’s just go for it)

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, preeya said:

If Nicky didn't get killed in the war, and he returned to the USA legitimately or not, then why is the family (including Jack) harboring the belief that he was KIA? And how does he conceal his true identity for 40 years?

We don't know that Nicky's family of origin believes he's dead, only that this is what they say or imply to people outside the family. Yes, including future spouses and children. Nicky broke down and became an addict -- or did worse -- in Vietnam. Family members who are hunkered down around shameful secrets can become collectively evasive: misrecall or lie outright about all sorts of matters of fact. Even, or especially, if a parent was an addict, abusive, or both; even if the family is now estranged. 

Jack may have felt that since Rebecca already knew about his abusive father, a broken brother was too much to ask her to accept, as well. Or, he may have made a promise to Nicky that came first. 

[Good Queen Jane]

I am convinced that the Viet Nam village historian is Jack's son because he certainly gave a Pearson monologue to Kevin.

[Christina87]

58 minutes ago, balmz said:

just curious would kate with her brattyness and whinyness fit in perfectly with the students as a teacher even if she didn't have the other qualifications and enable her to be a good teacher?

I really doubt it!!! She would truly have to get over herself first. I see SOME hope if she had a good student teaching experience, with an upbeat, fun teacher who showed her exactly how to be successful. However, pity is the absolute WORST strategy to use on students! I learned very quickly not to complain about anything, even if it was for a really good reason. For instance, once I tried to teach through a severe migraine. I told the kids what I was doing, and instead of trying to be polite, they took horrible advantage of me! They were louder than usual, and tried things like sneaking out of class, hoping I wouldn't notice. In the future, if I felt very poorly during class, I hid it if at all possible. Sometimes it's not, like if you lose your voice. However, I usually give them a music puzzle (fun, so no fighting back but educational), or show a documentary if I feel terrible, so that way it's low energy but I don't have to tell. I really can't at ALL see Kate toughing it out if she felt bad! Now, imagine her after sleepless nights with the baby! She would come in and mumble that she hadn't slept in days, and a guy would go pull the fire alarm.

That said, I do think Kate could do it if she fully realized 1) she would have to work HARD, 2) she couldn't whine, and 3) this is a high energy job! I think she would connect with students who love to sing. Also, the arts attracts a lot of students who don't fit the mold, so a lot of them would relate to her having a beautiful mom and popular brothers, while being the awkward one herself. I think she could reach a lot of kids that way, but she could only do this AFTER she stopped whining and buckled down, embracing the hard work.

I also have doubts about her ability to control a classroom, as she just seems so incredibly under confident, and kids pick up on that. Classroom management didn't come easily for me either (I'm a really "sweet" person lol), but I did find good mentors who taught me how to do it. That's what Kate would need...a good student teaching experience, as well as good mentors once she got into the school system...and she would have to develop some serious grit. Also, if some kid called her a bitch or something, she'd have to learn not to take it personally, which I could see being tough for her. Everyone does to some extent at first, but it's really the truth that their insults are almost always about them, not you. The kid who calls you a terrible name will be the one saying your class is their favorite the next day, and crying at the end of the year when class is over for good. The only insults you should take seriously are the (usually) polite ones from the high level kids, who realize they aren't getting what they need for whatever reason.

Since Kate has trouble taking a compliment, like on her last Adele gig, I think she'd have a REALLY hard time dealing with cruel kids; and don't think for a second they would overlook her weight! Once I had kids do a worksheet, and found a picture of dicks on the floor, with, "Ms. Christina87 can go suck a dick," from a disgruntled student (who didn't turn his in btw). I also once had a student tell me her friends had all been laughing because my boobs had bounced around that day, and that some of them always made fun of me for having big boobs (DD's...you never expect anyone to be negative about that lol!). I'm sure Kate would find morbidly obese depictions of herself on the floor, or hear a student mutter "fat bitch," on his way out, or have a good student confide in her that the boys in the back row constantly mocked her weight. Any effort to address this in class, as I'm sure Kate would, would only make it a thousand times worse. 

Plus, there are tons of bully principals in the school system, and Kate's meek personality would be the PERFECT target!!! There are also principals who couldn't care less about the arts, which would allow her to keep her job, but with few resources.

Buuuut...Kate is a Pearson! I'm sure she would just walk in, and it would all be effortlessly like Glee, without the drama. 

ETA: Kate could probably avoid most of these issues if she did elementary school, but that doesn't seem to be where her interest lies. I think she is good with teens in some circumstances, like when she talked to Tess, but would need to be emotionally ready for poorly mannered teens too. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Christina87

[Drumpf1737]

Quote

My guess is Future Beth was standing in what will be the new & improved “Pearson Community Rec Center” that St. Randall of Alpine brings forth after his historic come from behind, landslide win for a Council seat in the community in which neither he nor his family ever reside.  The new Rec Center will have:

ballet classes lead by Misty Copeland

basketball clinics run by LeBron James

counseling and therapy courtesy of Oprah

a free restaurant with Michelin Star chefs

a free health clinic staffed with doctors, surgeons and nurses from world renowned research hospitals

a bank ready to give small business loans to everyone, regardless of credit status 

3 Olympic sized swimming pools

a black diamond ski/snowboard run with chairlift 

and coming in 2035! a free Academy for Alternative Higher Education for Gifted But Underserved Youth with Professors Charles Xavier & Dumbledore

(If the TIU writers can live in a fantasy world, then let’s just go for it)

The Alvin Ailey dance company performed at my middle school in Brooklyn when I was just 10. It changed my life.  If Randall manages to show the kids in that neighborhood there's more to the world than just their block he could make a remarkable difference.

ETA: I agree that if Randall focuses on making the Rec center a haven for kids that would be a better use of his time and fulfill his desire to help people.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Drumpf1737

[Kdawg82]

I like the theme this episode of the Vietnamese man speaking with Kevin and coming full circle with Randall.  Sometimes being the "hero" of your own family - of your own story- is enough. There's no need to try for something  grand like Randall is doing with politics and abandoning his own family's wishes .

[BetyBee]

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I'm a middle school chorus teacher, and let me tell you...it's a hard, hard job. This is coming from someone who had straight A's her entire life and attended a prestigious college. It's completely different from being, for instance, the choir director at a small church (not knocking them either! They are very needed). Middle school chorus requires planning for six completely different classes every day, planning concerts, producing musicals (being the director, musical director, choreographer, costume and set designer, etc), fundraising and handling money, and knowing enough music theory and history to teach different things to several different classes. Also, you have to know a LOT about child development, as music teachers are certified K-12. It's far from a job anyone could do off the street, and I think college is a fair barrier, as that's where you learn about child development / lesson planning, as well as advanced musical theory / planning events. 

Well, then it's definitely not a good fit for Kate.  She'll be bored and on to the next thing after a few days!

[Empress1]

24 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Nicky broke down and became an addict -- or did worse -- in Vietnam. Family members who are hunkered down around shameful secrets can become collectively evasive: misrecall or lie outright about all sorts of matters of fact. Even, or especially, if a parent was an addict, abusive, or both; even if the family is now estranged. 

I could see a family setting a boundary with someone in active addiction "Don't call me again unless you're calling to go to rehab" (which I think is reasonable, frankly) and then if they never hear from him, assuming he's dead. I'm leaning toward addiction because they made a point of saying he was high in this episode. I'm very curious. I think no matter what happened with Nicky, we know it's going to be sad/dark - he's clearly not doing well.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, preeya said:

Don't recall if Jack ever actually said Nicky died in the war, but Kevin had to get that info from someone and my assumption is Jack.

Randall can pull off a legitimate win without it being a miracle. The current councilman could drop out, die, become incompetent, or perhaps arrested for wrongdoing related to his job as a councilman. It's not so far fetched.

I recall Jack telling the kids that he had a brother who "died in Vietnam" (I don't remember the exact quote).  However, Dad Pearson DID say Nicky came back "a hero" so one has to wonder.  I don't think he was in prison.  

[AmandaPanda]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

My thoughts exactly.  She'll be sitting a lot more in class than in driving to a few Adele-o-gram jobs.  However, if she does go back to school, it will be the most sensible thing she's done in awhile, even if she was never motivated to do it herself all these years and Toby had to nudge her. 

Not necessarily. Depending on what she needs to take, they may be 3 1-hour classes a week. If it's an extended block of time, she could talk to her teacher ahead of time, explain that she is in the middle of a high-risk pregnancy and would like to sit near the back of the class so she can get up every now and then to walk near the back without disturbing anyone. I don't know of any college professors I had who wouldn't have been okay with that. It's a legitimate health concern and no professor wants to be the person that caused her to lose a baby because she sat too long. 

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

Exactly!!! As an experienced music teacher, I have not gotten called for every job I've applied for. You have to fill out an application, and you aren't even allowed to submit without college information. Also, you aren't even allowed to sub without a college degree!

The only thing I can think of is that Madison pulled strings and got the principal to meet with her before she had actually submitted an application. Like as a pre-interview of sorts. Also, depending on the state, you don't have to have a college degree to sub. In Missouri, you just have to have 60 credit hours in any subject area to be able to be certified to be a sub for anything. 

1 hour ago, PepSinger said:

Hahahaha. As my mother told, and as I experienced a few months ago, looking for a full-time job is a full-time job that has no pay and no benefits. Anyone who has a four-year degree and is looking to make more than $15/hr has spent a significant amount of time looking for work. Looking for a full time job is something that should NOT be dismissed.

Looking for a full-time job is the absolute worst. It is emotionally draining and is full of nothing but rejection. In order to really make inroads and find something quickly, you have to spend 3-4 hours a day just filling out applications and then calling places to follow up and such. I have a friend who is a registered nurse with several years experience and it took her a couple months to find something because nowhere wanted to pay her a livable wage for someone with her experience. 

57 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, it could be a good memory for a person with Alzheimer's or similar, but I think the way Tess and Randall were approaching the visit with dread, and Toby had to be cajoled, it seems more serious/final than a regular visit to a loved one with dementia.  Plus the verbiage about "she would want you there", whether the she is Kate or Rebecca, makes me pivot away from that.  It seems more end of life. 

I can still see it being a final visit to someone with dementia or Alzheimer's. My grandmother passed away in February after a decade-long battle with Alzheimer's. I avoided going to the nursing home a lot because I couldn't sit and listen to my grandma cry for hours on end, asking all of us why Grandpa (who died in 2007) hadn't come to pick her up from there and how he could just leave her there and didn't he still love her. Or she'd ask about her parents and why they just left her there. It's incredibly painful and the fact that I didn't go as often as I should have made me feel extremely guilty. I could see where Tess may have felt guilt over not going to visit Rebecca very often and fear over watching her grandmother die. I'm absolutely expecting Rebecca to have Alzheimer's. I also know that if they go that route, I can't watch anymore. 

17 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

Since Kate has trouble taking a compliment, like on her last Adele gig, I think she'd have a REALLY hard time dealing with cruel kids; and don't think for a second they would overlook her weight! Once I had kids do a worksheet, and found a picture of dicks on the floor, with, "Ms. Christina87 can go suck a dick," from a disgruntled student (who didn't turn his in btw). I also once had a student tell me her friends had all been laughing because my boobs had bounced around that day, and that some of them always made fun of me for having big boobs (DD's...you never expect anyone to be negative about that lol!). I'm sure Kate would find morbidly obese depictions of herself on the floor, or hear a student mutter "fat bitch," on his way out, or have a good student confide in her that the boys in the back row constantly mocked her weight. Any effort to address this in class, as I'm sure Kate would, would only make it a thousand times worse. 

Dude, kids can be monsters. I started one of those alternative teacher certification programs (similar to Teach for America, but not) where you do a super intensive year of student teaching and then they give you your own classroom in one of the highest-needs areas in the country. I routinely had a student who would yell at me and call me a "whiny, fat bitch." I had another student who drew pornographic pictures of me on his desk and labeled it "This is how Ms. AmandaPanda makes babies." And I taught 5th and 6th graders. The stress of everything, plus the principal being hella pissed that I didn't have control over my classroom, made me have a nervous breakdown and I quit at the end of the first quarter. Kate definitely couldn't handle that level of stress. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

I could see a family setting a boundary with someone in active addiction "Don't call me again unless you're calling to go to rehab" (which I think is reasonable, frankly) and then if they never hear from him, assuming he's dead. I'm leaning toward addiction because they made a point of saying he was high in this episode. I'm very curious. I think no matter what happened with Nicky, we know it's going to be sad/dark - he's clearly not doing well.

Yes, and Jack was in major denial about that.  I can see Nicky doing something very drastic in an attempt for Jack to finally realize what is truly going on.  Nicky and the other men kept on trying to get Jack to see Nicky's mental state, but he has major blinders on.  Just getting Nicky back alive to the states is not enough, and I don;t think that Jack will ever realize this.  

[DFWGina]

15 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

So Rebecca is the "her"? Well color me massively underwhelmed. What's the over-under on her having Alzheimer's or something of the sort?

I think she is going to have something degenerative related to her aches and pains she talked to Tess about.

 

15 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Didn't Kate say she was 8 credits short?  She might need more than six months to graduate.  Not to mention going through a pregnancy, but I get what it's supposed to mean for Kate.  Whatever, I'm really not invested in that.

13 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

In the universities I attended, 8 credits would have equaled only two or three standard courses (3 or 4 credits a course), so a part-time semester's load. I nitpicked more what Kate's outstanding credits were, because if it were upper level major work that she needed, the community college won't cut it. But I'll be generous and assume she was only missing general ed requirements.

8 credits isn't even a full time load but not sure you can take that at community college since usually you take those type course the first 2 years of school (100-200 level courses) and the last 2 years are more specifically focused on your major/minor in upper level courses (300-400 level)

 

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, you cant just walk in off the street and get a teaching job without any teaching experience, or a college degree, Kate. Honestly, you can hardly get any job without some sort of higher education. Duh. And maybe the best way to get a job isnt a variation of the usual "have I mentioned my life sucks?" speech that you love so much, Kate?

And I hope you enjoyed her niece bonding last week, because I dont see that happening again for awhile. 

My high school drama teacher did not go to college but was a Broadway actress and was in movies in the 1960s.   So I could handwave that Kate's lack of degree would not hold her back but it was nice to see something not just handed to her or working out perfectly for her.

 

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I think that means spending money they shouldn't be spending and making financial decisions that will affect them long-term, like depleting savings accounts, borrowing from retirement accounts, selling off investments, etc. There was a lot of speculation about their finances a couple of episodes ago, so I'm glad the show had Beth acknowledge that the campaign wasn't something they could easily afford.

Yes I was one of the people who was concerned about how they were paying for it... I recall a beat-down of sorts for those of us who asked... haha   No one gonna beat down Beth for saying that they were stretching it?

 

54 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

My guess is Future Beth was standing in what will be the new & improved “Pearson Community Rec Center” that St. Randall of Alpine brings forth after his historic come from behind, landslide win for a Council seat in the community in which neither he nor his family ever reside.  The new Rec Center will have:

ballet classes lead by Misty Copeland

basketball clinics run by LeBron James

counseling and therapy courtesy of Oprah

a free restaurant with Michelin Star chefs

a free health clinic staffed with doctors, surgeons and nurses from world renowned research hospitals

a bank ready to give small business loans to everyone, regardless of credit status 

3 Olympic sized swimming pools

a black diamond ski/snowboard run with chairlift 

and coming in 2035! a free Academy for Alternative Higher Education for Gifted But Underserved Youth with Professors Charles Xavier & Dumbledore

(If the TIU writers can live in a fantasy world, then let’s just go for it)

I bet you are right about the Pearson Community Rec Center....  although I am really sick of the political race.  I was so excited when his campaign manager told him it was not going to happen....   And I am #teamBeth on the whole thing....   Family First.

[ClareWalks]

I could be wrong and I didn't look at it closely, but the brief clip of Nicky in the house (before they showed his mail/address) could have been from a long time ago. It was hard to see him or how old he was, but the fashion/furnishings looked 1970s or 80s to me. Of course, who knows with this show. But just because he may have survived Vietnam doesn't mean it's proven that he is still alive today.

[mtlchick]

10 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

But just because he may have survived Vietnam doesn't mean it's proven that he is still alive today.

The reports say that Griffin Dunne will be playing present day Nicky. 

10 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

But just because he may have survived Vietnam doesn't mean it's proven that he is still alive today.

The reports say that Griffin Dunne will be playing present day Nicky. 

[callmebetty]

9 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I could be wrong and I didn't look at it closely, but the brief clip of Nicky in the house (before they showed his mail/address) could have been from a long time ago. It was hard to see him or how old he was, but the fashion/furnishings looked 1970s or 80s to me. Of course, who knows with this show. But just because he may have survived Vietnam doesn't mean it's proven that he is still alive today.

Except that, and someone posted it here, there was a Deadline article confirming that it was Griffin Dunne, we saw and who would be playing future Nicky.

[NUguy514]

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

One doesn't need a degree to be an on-call sub. As in, you get called to sub for the day, basically make sure the kids don't die.

In Los Angeles County, you actually do need to have a degree to be an on-call sub for any public school in the county.

[PRgal]

6 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

 

The reports say that Griffin Dunne will be playing present day Nicky. 

It doesn't mean Nicky is alive in 2018.  He could have died, say, 10 years ago.  

[Aloeonatable]

5 hours ago, Driad said:

 

Did they explain why, when Jack was in the army, he did not have a military haircut?

 

My husband, a Viet Nam vet, said when in the field, no one was required to have a military haircut. We have a close friend who was also a Nam vet and he had almost shoulder length hair when he was in country. 

[zillabreeze]

40 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I could be wrong and I didn't look at it closely, but the brief clip of Nicky in the house (before they showed his mail/address) could have been from a long time ago. It was hard to see him or how old he was, but the fashion/furnishings looked 1970s or 80s to me. Of course, who knows with this show. But just because he may have survived Vietnam doesn't mean it's proven that he is still alive today.

I immediately pegged it as an older trailer or RV type of dwelling.  Indicating hard times, especially with the bottle of Jack Daniels on the coffee table.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

 Instead of Nicky being actually dead, he was just dead to Jack.  There's a lot of story to unravel with this one.

My thoughts exactly. The Nicky Jack knew was no longer the Nicky that survived the war.

[ShadowFacts]

26 minutes ago, PRgal said:

It doesn't mean Nicky is alive in 2018.  He could have died, say, 10 years ago.  

He could have, but there is more dramatic power in him being alive for Kevin to somehow find.  And find out what happened in Vietnam from the person who was there to experience it. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I’m unsure how I feel about gender reveal parties. On one hand the idea is cute and fun and it’s a  nice party idea or for a family get together. On the other hand the social media aspect kind of rubs me the wrong way, like for celebs I get it that they put it in social  media but for regular people, why do you have to put up a video of you announcing your child’s gender on your Facebook for someone you haven’t seen since high school? Most of the people you wanted to know are probably there and if they aren’t just send them the video of it? But lately as I get older, I’m finding certain things that are put on social media confusing, even myself from years ago. 

I’m another person who is confused with why Kate thought she could get a job doing anything in the educational field without a college degree. Even subbing, I think you have to have a degree or are working towards one. 

Again, I don’t think Nicky could have done something super unforgiving that he dead to jack, as we all assume, Kevin is more than likely going to meet him and on this show no one is allowed to be evil. It’s just bad circumstances. 

[TV Diva Queen]

14 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Exactly, and Deja is not a toddler, she's 14 or 15; it's only a few years until she's an adult. I hope the way this storyline plays out is that Deja insists on moving in with Shauna and Randall and Beth let her.

Didn't Kate's doctor say she didn't want Kate to drive for hours on end because that entails too much sitting? So how is sitting for hours in a classroom/library much different? If anything, that's even more sitting. I did love how quickly Madison jumped into connector mode and lined up the school interview for Kate. That's exactly how my friends and I are when one of us is needs anything.

Is it just me, or was Future Beth styled like Debbie Allen? It's as if the costume department thought all black female choreographers dress like that.

I already shudder to think of Randall pulling out a surprise win, because that's the kind of thing I've come to expect from the show.

And, possibly unpopular opinion, but I don't care about Nicky one way or another. I'm sure it's going to be a convoluted way for Kevin to finally find peace about Jack's death, but this storyline does nothing for me. I don't know if it's the actor who plays Nicky, the writing, or the fact that Zoe is involved.

breaking board and my rule of not reading comments before posting, but I had slip this through.  OMG LMAO   I thought the same thing.  I'm like....is this a Fame revival?  

[Kdawg82]

6 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I’m another person who is confused with why Kate thought she could get a job doing anything in the educational field without a college degree. Even subbing, I think you have to have a degree or are working towards one. 

Well the breezy way the blonde friend (I forget her name- Morgan?) Said something that sounded like she was swallowing her words like "I volunteer for the school- they're super desperate for a chorus teacher.....I'll put you in touch with..." made it seem so effortless and without need for higher education. What does she volunteer as at the school that she doesn't know you need a college degree for this?- a lunch lady?

[PRgal]

10 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I’m unsure how I feel about gender reveal parties. On one hand the idea is cute and fun and it’s a  nice party idea or for a family get together. On the other hand the social media aspect kind of rubs me the wrong way, like for celebs I get it that they put it in social  media but for regular people, why do you have to put up a video of you announcing your child’s gender on your Facebook for someone you haven’t seen since high school? Most of the people you wanted to know are probably there and if they aren’t just send them the video of it? But lately as I get older, I’m finding certain things that are put on social media confusing, even myself from years ago. 

I’m another person who is confused with why Kate thought she could get a job doing anything in the educational field without a college degree. Even subbing, I think you have to have a degree or are working towards one. 

Again, I don’t think Nicky could have done something super unforgiving that he dead to jack, as we all assume, Kevin is more than likely going to meet him and on this show no one is allowed to be evil. It’s just bad circumstances. 

I was unsure until our surrogate was pregnant.  We ended up revealing the baby's sex at our shower (it was a small co-ed dinner party - this is what happens when you have next to zero friends and your husband's friends are in another city.  A friend I knew since BEFORE I was born acted as host, even though I was was given free range to do whatever (her house was under renovations and really didn't have time to do anything, anyway) - LOL) - guests were asked whether they thought PRbaby was XX or XY and opened a package to reveal a treat which indicated what PRbaby was (XY).  We gave PRbaby a very traditional, Biblical name :) 

 

As for Kate not being able to get a job without a degree - I was surprised she was even interviewed.  I thought all teachers had to have a degree of some sort.  I guess I assumed that she'd be teaching-teaching (as in for credit) not volunteering for an after school sort of thing. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by PRgal

[WhosThatGirl]

2 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I was unsure until our surrogate was pregnant.  We ended up revealing the baby's sex at our shower (it was a small co-ed dinner party - this is what happens when you have next to zero friends and your husband's friends are in another city.  A friend I knew since BEFORE I was born acted as host, even though I was was given free range to do whatever (her house was under renovations and really didn't have time to do anything, anyway) - LOL) - guests were asked whether they thought PRbaby was XX or XY and opened a package to reveal a treat which indicated what PRbaby was (XY).  We gave PRbaby a very traditional, Biblical name :) 

 

As for Kate not being able to get a job without a degree - I was surprised she was even interviewed.  I thought all teachers had to have a degree of some sort.  I guess I assumed that she'd be teaching-teaching (as in for credit) not volunteering for an after school sort of thing. 

I think I’m okay with gender reveals its the whole putting it all on social media that I don’t quite understand.

Yeah, I wonder if Kate’s friend didn’t know she didn’t finish college? 

[SuzieQ]

So many thoughts, probably all stated already, but what the hell!

I'm not usually weepy about this show but this one got to me!  Randall's speech about helping them shovel broke me.  Pure fantasy and if he wins after the facts were presented to him, it's well..............as unrealistic as most of the show, lol!

Loved loved loved the speech the Viet Nam guy gave Kevin.  There is a bigger picture here and that is exactly what they were fighting for, irregardless of my overall feelings on that war.  That was a great scene!  Loved too, that they lightened it up with a Manny connection.

Tess broke my heart!  Adolescence is hard enough without carrying that kind of weight around.  As much as they annoy me, Beth and Randall handled that flawlessly.  They handled Deja wanting to see her Mom well too.  Looks like Beth and Randall split at some point.  That makes me sad as they do seem made for each other.  Good for Beth making him sleep on the couch, but why did she make up a nice bed for him?  Who does that during an argument???

Kate/Toby and the gender reveal was cute.  We all knew it was going to be a Jack Jr. but glad it was a private moment.  honestly, these big gender reveal parties are beyond annoying!  And I love that Toby encouraged her to go back to school.  Why oh why would she think she was qualified to be a teacher, even if it is choir.  Serious eye roll for that one!

Don't know what to think about Nick being alive.  Didn't see it coming, but wasn't really shocked either which is kind of weird.  I'm sure there is a huge arc coming where they track him down and he refuses to see them, blah blah blah.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, DFWGina said:

My high school drama teacher did not go to college but was a Broadway actress and was in movies in the 1960s.   So I could handwave that Kate's lack of degree would not hold her back but it was nice to see something not just handed to her or working out perfectly for her.

Just as a point of interest I think some of my Crimonology professors in university were simply lawyers.  I found it fine but it's interesting to note.  I am not sure what the requirements are before you become a university professor.  I guess I haven't thought about it explicitly.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[gameshowjunkie]

My son has been in choir since fourth grade. He's in high school now. The only time I see the directors sit is when they play piano to accompany the students. They work their butts off. There is class every day, evening rehearsals, weekend concerts at churches and the VA. There are summer clinics. This past summer the kids also went to Italy. All the choir teachers I've met have a real passion for the music and the kids. So grateful to them for the awesome experiences my son has had.

 

Depending on the level of the kids she's teaching, Kate might not have as many responsibilities outside of school hours, but there will be lots of prep. I could see her enjoying it as long as she can deal with mean middle school kids.

[MamaBird]

When Kate was lamenting that she couldn't just do nothing while waiting for the baby, I said out loud, "Then why don't you volunteer somewhere?"  If she doesn't need the money - which apparently she does not - there are plenty of opportunities for people who want to get involved in something.  School will give her something to do, but as many people have already pointed out, it will require even more sitting than driving to "Adele-O-Gram" gigs, and the eight credits she's missing probably aren't community-college level.  

When we learned that Nicky isn't on the registry of Vietnam dead, and Jack heard the explosion - did anyone else think of Terry the Toad blowing up the outhouse in More American Graffiti?  (Probably not, because I'll admit that movie was pretty much forgettable.)  Terry used the confusion to disappear, and as a result, he was officially listed as Missing.  Nicky isn't listed as Missing, and he's living under his own name so he's probably not AWOL now... but he could have gone AWOL at the time.  As others have mentioned, he could have deserted and served time.  

Either way, the five or six of us who remember Terry the Toad's escape from the war would love a Charles Martin Smith cameo -  in Army gear, with a "That gives me an idea" expression on his face; or in present day, as one of Nicky's neighbors.

[MBayGal]

6 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I think sex reveal parties are bizarre too (they're not a thing among people I know), and I think it was REALLY weird that they didn't just ask the doctor rather than going through all that rigmarole with the cake

A couple I know having their first child together had one of those parties.  They gave the baker a sealed envelope from their doctor with the child's sex on it.  The baker made a batch of cupcakes, just one of which had something of the correct color in it.  So they found out along with their guests.  It strikes me as odd too, but it's now a thing.

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

I dont think so because why did Beth's (assistant??) Tell her she already prepared the "pin the tail on the donkey " game? I thought maybe it's a grandchild ? Idk.

Not prepared -- picked up at Beth's office (somewhere other than the pod bay dance studio) and brought with her to give to Beth, to take to Rebecca. The assistant also brought Beth the message that Tess and Randall were on their way from Newark. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know there's been some discussion of middle school choir (mostly from people's personal experiences) but FYI - the school where Kate talked to the principal was a high school. Madison said she volunteered at Martin Van Buren High School when they were at the park. I don't know if it would be better or worse for Kate to deal with high school kids or middle school kids (although I suppose it's a moot point since Kate is not qualified for this job anyway - "It's like a cow's opinion").

6 hours ago, marymon said:

We don't know what the position entailed.    If it was an actual class and not just an after school activity  then a certified teacher would be required.

I went school in California and even after school activities that were through the school (aka not Pop Warner type stuff that's totally separate from school) required teachers as the advisor/responsible adult. Every club, sport, and other extracurricular activity had to have a teacher employed by the school. I'm guessing part of it is liability (the kids are on school property so the school is responsible for what happens and therefore the supervising adult must be an employee).

5 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Nothing against the actress who plays Tess, but why would the producers cast a 13 year old to play a 10 year old?  I know actors play characters younger than their actual age all the time, but that has to be the toughest age group to play younger.  I know some girls hit puberty faster, but last year when Tess had supposedly just turned nine I thought she was 11 or 12, and it turns out I was right in a way.

The reason older children are hired to play younger characters has to do with very specific child labor laws. Each age group has very detailed requirements about how long the kids are allowed to be on set, how long they're allowed to be on camera, and how many hours a day they must be in school/tutored on set. The current child labor law says that children who are age 9-15 can work a maximum of 5 hours during a 24 hour period. In addition, they must have a minimum of 3 hours of schooling (usually an on set tutor), a 30 minute meal break, and 1 hour of rest/recreation. The maximum amount of time they can be on set is 9.5 hours per day.

My guess is that in this particular instance, they wanted Tess to look distinctly older than Annie. Another thing to remember is that sometimes a lot of time passes between casting for a pilot and then shooting it and getting picked up. She might have looked younger at her initial audition. Mandy, Milo, Sterling, and Justin were announced as cast members in November 2015. I'm not sure when they did the casting calls for the kids, but it's been three years since the initial casting for Rebecca, Jack, Randall, and Kevin was announced and kids do a lot of growing in two or three years!

4 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I'm a middle school chorus teacher, and let me tell you...it's a hard, hard job. This is coming from someone who had straight A's her entire life and attended a prestigious college. It's completely different from being, for instance, the choir director at a small church (not knocking them either! They are very needed). Middle school chorus requires planning for six completely different classes every day, planning concerts, producing musicals (being the director, musical director, choreographer, costume and set designer, etc), fundraising and handling money, and knowing enough music theory and history to teach different things to several different classes. Also, you have to know a LOT about child development, as music teachers are certified K-12. It's far from a job anyone could do off the street, and I think college is a fair barrier, as that's where you learn about child development / lesson planning, as well as advanced musical theory / planning events. 

My middle school choir was a fun elective. It was not rigorous or competitive. There was no audition required and we did not participate in any competitions. We still had a credentialed teacher who did a lot of work. I think Kate had no understanding of what it takes to teach choir. The more I think about it, the more I believe that she thought loving music and being a positive/supportive adult was all that was necessary. As you described, it takes A LOT more than that.

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It WAS nice for the show to actually have the principal not give her the job due to not having a college degree.

I was afraid that Kate was going to give him a Pearson monologue (TM) and convince him to bend the rules for her. I was so relieved when he was like, "Sorry, nope!"

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I was unsure until our surrogate was pregnant.  We ended up revealing the baby's sex at our shower (it was a small co-ed dinner party - this is what happens when you have next to zero friends and your husband's friends are in another city.  A friend I knew since BEFORE I was born acted as host, even though I was was given free range to do whatever (her house was under renovations and really didn't have time to do anything, anyway) - LOL) - guests were asked whether they thought PRbaby was XX or XY and opened a package to reveal a treat which indicated what PRbaby was (XY).  We gave PRbaby a very traditional, Biblical name :) 

At least you had a SEX reveal and not a GENDER reveal. That makes sense. I find it very hard for people to be revealing something that they don't know such as gender. Doesn't make sense.

[AmandaPanda]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I agree with you, but most of the time that we see Beth, she isn't looking for a job.  In fact, most of the time we see these characters, they aren't working.

Probably because it's not super compelling for us to watch someone searching for a job. That doesn't mean she isn't doing it. 

3 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know there's been some discussion of middle school choir (mostly from people's personal experiences) but FYI - the school where Kate talked to the principal was a high school. Madison said she volunteered at Martin Van Buren High School when they were at the park. I don't know if it would be better or worse for Kate to deal with high school kids or middle school kids (although I suppose it's a moot point since Kate is not qualified for this job anyway - "It's like a cow's opinion").

I went school in California and even after school activities that were through the school (aka not Pop Warner type stuff that's totally separate from school) required teachers as the advisor/responsible adult. Every club, sport, and other extracurricular activity had to have a teacher employed by the school. I'm guessing part of it is liability (the kids are on school property so the school is responsible for what happens and therefore the supervising adult must be an employee).

The reason older children are hired to play younger characters has to do with very specific child labor laws. Each age group has very detailed requirements about how long the kids are allowed to be on set, how long they're allowed to be on camera, and how many hours a day they must be in school/tutored on set. The current child labor law says that children who are age 9-15 can work a maximum of 5 hours during a 24 hour period. In addition, they must have a minimum of 3 hours of schooling (usually an on set tutor), a 30 minute meal break, and 1 hour of rest/recreation. The maximum amount of time they can be on set is 9.5 hours per day.

My guess is that in this particular instance, they wanted Tess to look distinctly older than Annie. Another thing to remember is that sometimes a lot of time passes between casting for a pilot and then shooting it and getting picked up. She might have looked younger at her initial audition. Mandy, Milo, Sterling, and Justin were announced as cast members in November 2015. I'm not sure when they did the casting calls for the kids, but it's been three years since the initial casting for Rebecca, Jack, Randall, and Kevin was announced and kids do a lot of growing in two or three years!

I think it's also highly likely that the writers have forgotten how old they previously said Tess was and just decided she's older because that's what they need her to be for this storyline. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Kdawg82 said:

Well the breezy way the blonde friend (I forget her name- Morgan?) Said something that sounded like she was swallowing her words like "I volunteer for the school- they're super desperate for a chorus teacher.....I'll put you in touch with..." made it seem so effortless and without need for higher education. What does she volunteer as at the school that she doesn't know you need a college degree for this?- a lunch lady?

Madison probably assumed that Kate had a college degree. I don't think Kate broadcasts to everyone that she didn't finish college, since that's so low on her list of "woe is me" stories.

[chitowngirl]

Wasn’t there a scene way back when they first showed Jack in Vietnam of him holding his wounded or dead brother? Perhaps Nicky got hurt, was hospitalized, and then jailed or dishonorably discharged for the boat explosion. It’s an interesting twist and I’m intrigued how the story plays out.

Also, remember way back in season one when everyone was ragging that Kevin was the weakest link of the siblings? My, how we have grown!

And lastly, even if Kate only needed 8 credits of general studies and can get them at the community college, where will her degree be from? CCs don’t hand out Bachelor’s degrees.

[saber5055]

The Randall-must-quit-the-election story line is so OTT. He was given the results of one poll, and based on the 2016 election, polls don't mean anything. And if the poll is correct and he's going to lose, then why withdraw from the race? Just give a concession speech when election results come in and be done with it. And WTH Beth, you can't wait a few weeks? Kick Randall out of the house if he wins the thing. Meanwhile, you can sleep your ass on the couch.

Wait! Don't they live in a gigantic house? There is no guest bedroom? Geesh. So much needless drah-mah.

Nothing can make me like Kate. Nothing. And her telling Rebecca about Tess didn't change my negative opinion about her. She is such a waste of space on this planet. She and Toby are perfect for each other, I dislike them equally.

Then the Tess scenes. Geezy pete, go moping around like your dog just died. What's up with that? I can see her doing the moping though after it sunk in that she shared a secret with Kate. THAT'S a huge mistake for sure. Meanwhile: You are in middle school, who gives a care about whether you like boys or girls or neither. Do kids really dwell on such things at such a young age? I was so busy with doing things that I never gave sex or boys (or girls) a thought even during high school.

And her "reveal" to her parents was a big WTH for me. Neither one said anything comforting, just "ah, um, well, we love you ..." I wish they would have said whatever path she chooses in life is fine with them as long as she is happy, and they'll always be there for her regardless of what the future holds. Instead Tess got pretty much nothing. No wonder she didn't want to talk about it ever again. I wouldn't either.

Personally, I'd rather have a gay daughter than a straight daughter. Times ten.

Not sure what's up with Alive Nicky. If he were fake dead, why live in Pennsylvania and not Canada somewhere under an assumed name. Jack did try to take him to Canada so there's that. I guess that's a wait-and-see thing. He'd be pretty old now though, 70 something at least. Still wearing glasses though!